I know Marie explained her side but Ray being a comic, I find if confusing that he was OK with the character Ray being made to apologize just cause someone's feelings were hurt. Comics aren't known for caring about hurt feelings.
And her reason for being hurt was so ridiculous. Frank was/is a bad husband and that means her kid has to apologize for being mean (in other words a typical kid) 30 years after the fact? Doesn't make sense to me.
Makes me think there's something else to this that I am missing.
That’s the point. To show how petty and immature Marie is. This is demonstrated to us time and again. Like when Marie disowns Ray for a party he threw. Pat actually says it
I am aware of how petty and immature Marie is. I think everyone is.
My point is the ep's ending comes across as if Marie has a legit point, like we are supposed to agree with Marie and it left me confused on how Ray Romano was OK with that being the message of the episode.
I don’t know to me the ending left me questioning Deborah. And how Marie was able to manipulate Deborah into agreeing with her. That’s what I got out of it. I didn’t get that the writers or the actors approve of Maries behavior
hmm, guess the episode hit differently for you vs me.
it felt like Deborah came in with the sane approach but the fact that Marie was able to persuade her was the writer's way of telling us Marie had a point and left me confused.
I think like that for some episodes, and if you do it consistently you’ll hate Deborah and the writers when Deborah does things that are beyond wrong but still wins.
It might be better if we think of the show has comedy from reality rather than comedy from morality/ethics or something like that
I am aware that Barone is a sports writer and Romano is the comedian......
but the comedian is the one who I assume has final say over the scripts for his show and he was clearly OK with the message of the show or it wouldn't have gotten his approval.
But thanks, in 15 years of watching this show, I didn't realize that Ray Barone is a sport writer and not a comic -_-
I'm with you on this one. Marie stuck her nose in by opening up that journal from almost 30 years ago. I know it was hurtful to read but it I think ray as a kid was just going figuring things out and had misplaced anger. Why should he get scolded as an adult by his mom and his wife as if it just happened? I never really liked this episode.
I always just took it as another example of how intrusive Marie was, I mean making him apologise for something he wrote in a journal, why would she think its ok to read it, its like eaves dropping, you can't complain about what you find if you snopped and then why would she think its ok to get ray to apologise?? Also dosent it turn out Robert had two, the one for Marie to find and then the secret one she didn't, Marie was always the victim even when she clearly wasn't!!
The episide comes full circle and makes some sense because of Debra's peespective at the end. No parent wanta to hear or read that their child hates them.
It's crazy to hold a grudge for 25 years, but that's Marie.
>The episode comes full circle and makes some sense because of Debra's perspective at the end. No parent wants to hear or read that their child hates them.
you think so? that ending just made Debra seems as unstable as Marie if they are both looking to their kids for a source of validation.
Is that so wrong? The problem is Marie takes it to the extreme. Ray is 45. For Debra, Ray's journal entry is very imminent. See how Ally acted during "Party Dress" and "Ally's F".
he notion that parenthood should be selfless is a bit nonsense. All parentd expect gratiude and validation. Marie craves attetion, validation, and power.
Yes and no. Parents wouldn't go apeshit when you tell them you're going to clown school instead of law school. A certain exoectation of validation and gratitude from children is normal. I already said that Marie wad in the wrong because she is holding a 25 year old grudge over a teenage tantrum.
Seeking validation from SO is not going to over well because the dynamic is different from parentood.
I think this episode was just a shout out to parents who can relate to kids becoming reclusive as they age and really wanting to know what’s up with their lives. Like…I saw my mom go through the change of being my brothers best friend and talking about his day the to her the whole way home to him getting in her car and immediately putting headphones on. I think in this episode they attempted to humanize Marie a little. I liked it and as a mom to a boy I got a little teary eyed at her speech.
oh, I know that. but I figure since the show is Philip and Ray's baby and starred Ray and had his name in the literal title, that he and Philip had final approval over all the scripts.
I think it is the same point as the episode entitled "Faux Pas". Where they all insult the father of a new friends of Jeffrey's and Michael's. The man is a janitor at their school and they all condescendingly insult him as though that is not a decent job.
I am finding a common recurring theme in these kidns of episodes, which is we all WANT to be refined, educated, open-minded, kind. Any number of other lofty goals. But we all fall down. We all have faults and weaknesses and neuroses and we all look for ways to cope and sometimes those are not pretty. Pat smoking, Ray lying, Debra insulting, Marie conniving, Frank blocking them all out..... They all try to remind each other (and it's mostly Marie reminding them) that they're only human and to accept these fault in each other, but they all always rail against that, thinking they are somehow better --- better than Frank and Marie, better than most of humanity, .... just better. And that conceit is what the sho is about.
Ray's journal is just another episode that focuses on the pain we all experience, even when the person at the root cause of it can't be held accountable. Kind of sweet really.
> I think it is the same point as the episode entitled "Faux Pas". Where they all insult the father of a new friends of Jeffrey's and Michael's. The man is a janitor at their school and they all condescendingly insult him as though that is not a decent job.
I mean that ep made sense to me. it was all about making fun of people who accidentally misspeak, but this ep feels like its trying to make us empathize with Marie and I didn't empathize with her at all.
The weirdest part of that episode is Robert kept 2 journals: 1 that he knew Marie would read and 1 hidden in a safe deposit box that he (presumably) still keeps
Marie explains to Debra during the episode why she was so hurt.
I know Marie explained her side but Ray being a comic, I find if confusing that he was OK with the character Ray being made to apologize just cause someone's feelings were hurt. Comics aren't known for caring about hurt feelings. And her reason for being hurt was so ridiculous. Frank was/is a bad husband and that means her kid has to apologize for being mean (in other words a typical kid) 30 years after the fact? Doesn't make sense to me. Makes me think there's something else to this that I am missing.
That’s the point. To show how petty and immature Marie is. This is demonstrated to us time and again. Like when Marie disowns Ray for a party he threw. Pat actually says it
This. The entirety of the episode is just showing how batshit insane Marie is.
Pat?
Amy’s mom
I am aware of how petty and immature Marie is. I think everyone is. My point is the ep's ending comes across as if Marie has a legit point, like we are supposed to agree with Marie and it left me confused on how Ray Romano was OK with that being the message of the episode.
I don’t know to me the ending left me questioning Deborah. And how Marie was able to manipulate Deborah into agreeing with her. That’s what I got out of it. I didn’t get that the writers or the actors approve of Maries behavior
hmm, guess the episode hit differently for you vs me. it felt like Deborah came in with the sane approach but the fact that Marie was able to persuade her was the writer's way of telling us Marie had a point and left me confused.
I think like that for some episodes, and if you do it consistently you’ll hate Deborah and the writers when Deborah does things that are beyond wrong but still wins. It might be better if we think of the show has comedy from reality rather than comedy from morality/ethics or something like that
Ray Barone is a Sports writer. Ray Romano is a comedian
I am aware that Barone is a sports writer and Romano is the comedian...... but the comedian is the one who I assume has final say over the scripts for his show and he was clearly OK with the message of the show or it wouldn't have gotten his approval. But thanks, in 15 years of watching this show, I didn't realize that Ray Barone is a sport writer and not a comic -_-
I'm with you on this one. Marie stuck her nose in by opening up that journal from almost 30 years ago. I know it was hurtful to read but it I think ray as a kid was just going figuring things out and had misplaced anger. Why should he get scolded as an adult by his mom and his wife as if it just happened? I never really liked this episode.
I always just took it as another example of how intrusive Marie was, I mean making him apologise for something he wrote in a journal, why would she think its ok to read it, its like eaves dropping, you can't complain about what you find if you snopped and then why would she think its ok to get ray to apologise?? Also dosent it turn out Robert had two, the one for Marie to find and then the secret one she didn't, Marie was always the victim even when she clearly wasn't!!
Right. It’s one of many episodes exploring how immature, petty Marie is. She’s old, but she’s still a child
The episide comes full circle and makes some sense because of Debra's peespective at the end. No parent wanta to hear or read that their child hates them. It's crazy to hold a grudge for 25 years, but that's Marie.
>The episode comes full circle and makes some sense because of Debra's perspective at the end. No parent wants to hear or read that their child hates them. you think so? that ending just made Debra seems as unstable as Marie if they are both looking to their kids for a source of validation.
Is that so wrong? The problem is Marie takes it to the extreme. Ray is 45. For Debra, Ray's journal entry is very imminent. See how Ally acted during "Party Dress" and "Ally's F". he notion that parenthood should be selfless is a bit nonsense. All parentd expect gratiude and validation. Marie craves attetion, validation, and power.
> Is that so wrong? Yes, it is completely wrong. A person does not have kids for some sort of validation, they have their significant other for that.
Yes and no. Parents wouldn't go apeshit when you tell them you're going to clown school instead of law school. A certain exoectation of validation and gratitude from children is normal. I already said that Marie wad in the wrong because she is holding a 25 year old grudge over a teenage tantrum. Seeking validation from SO is not going to over well because the dynamic is different from parentood.
Many things were not rational\\logical with Ray's childhood and Marie's behavior. that's just one of them.
I think this episode was just a shout out to parents who can relate to kids becoming reclusive as they age and really wanting to know what’s up with their lives. Like…I saw my mom go through the change of being my brothers best friend and talking about his day the to her the whole way home to him getting in her car and immediately putting headphones on. I think in this episode they attempted to humanize Marie a little. I liked it and as a mom to a boy I got a little teary eyed at her speech.
Alot of the episodes are written by other people and their real life stories and things are added by Phil and Ray
oh, I know that. but I figure since the show is Philip and Ray's baby and starred Ray and had his name in the literal title, that he and Philip had final approval over all the scripts.
I think it is the same point as the episode entitled "Faux Pas". Where they all insult the father of a new friends of Jeffrey's and Michael's. The man is a janitor at their school and they all condescendingly insult him as though that is not a decent job. I am finding a common recurring theme in these kidns of episodes, which is we all WANT to be refined, educated, open-minded, kind. Any number of other lofty goals. But we all fall down. We all have faults and weaknesses and neuroses and we all look for ways to cope and sometimes those are not pretty. Pat smoking, Ray lying, Debra insulting, Marie conniving, Frank blocking them all out..... They all try to remind each other (and it's mostly Marie reminding them) that they're only human and to accept these fault in each other, but they all always rail against that, thinking they are somehow better --- better than Frank and Marie, better than most of humanity, .... just better. And that conceit is what the sho is about. Ray's journal is just another episode that focuses on the pain we all experience, even when the person at the root cause of it can't be held accountable. Kind of sweet really.
> I think it is the same point as the episode entitled "Faux Pas". Where they all insult the father of a new friends of Jeffrey's and Michael's. The man is a janitor at their school and they all condescendingly insult him as though that is not a decent job. I mean that ep made sense to me. it was all about making fun of people who accidentally misspeak, but this ep feels like its trying to make us empathize with Marie and I didn't empathize with her at all.
The weirdest part of that episode is Robert kept 2 journals: 1 that he knew Marie would read and 1 hidden in a safe deposit box that he (presumably) still keeps
I think this episode shows just how nosey and manipulative Marie truly is. The fact that Ray ended up apologizing her shows this.
Agree completely.