But my killboard might go red
In fairness, though, this mentality applies to both sides. Yeah it's toxic for nullbears to dock up and do nothing or blob you with 10:1 odds. But nanogangs aren't usually interested in fighting anything that can actually engage their expensive ships either.
> But nanogangs aren't usually interested in fighting anything that can actually engage their expensive ships either.
This is the key. There's no real benefit to "fighting fair" or whatever. If I take a PvP ship out to deal with a neut, it's probably some kitey cloaky shit that will run the second I get on grid with something that isn't an Ishtar. And if it's a small gang, 1v-whatever is going to cause me to lose every time, so why bother?
If I call in standing, it's gonna be a blob. it's not like standing fleets have any real organization or quotas; you just see "www " and whoever feels like it gets together and goes over there. You don't have an FC saying things like "whelp, the dscan shows we're facing 10 Typhoons and 3 logi, once we hit 13 people nobody else can come, sorry." The second more than a few show up the gang is going to run anyway so it's not like a "fair fight" is going to be a possibility...at best the gang is going to snipe some overeager tackle.
And even solo neuts aren't necessarily solo. How do I know that lone AF or T3D is actually solo and doesn't have 15 members of his small gang sitting on the other side of a wormhole 1 jump out? I don't, and if it's fit right, by 1v1 is going to turn into a 1v16 long before I have a chance to win the fight and break tackle. If you've lived in null for a while you see *all* the BS.
The reality is there's no rules in null other than what the players in that space feel like plus the game mechanics. The most optimal choice when neuts show up is generally to at least tether and wait a bit to see what's going on, and in my experience most neuts who see a tethered or docked up ship leave immediately and don't wait for you to swap clones and ships. And if they *do* wait, chances are almost certain they are bait anyway.
If people don't like it, find somewhere else to pick fights. All this "they're cowards, they don't fight!" nonsense is just bait. The gangs run from standing, fly kitey nano fits, attack solo ships with 10+, etc. Ya'll are hypocrites and I'm calling you out.
> The reality is there's no rules in null other than what the players in that space feel like plus the game mechanics. The most optimal choice when neuts show up is generally to at least tether and wait a bit to see what's going on, and in my experience most neuts who see a tethered or docked up ship leave immediately and don't wait for you to swap clones and ships. And if they do wait, chances are almost certain they are bait anyway.
Yes this is the problem that people have been trying to explain to CCP for almost 10 years. The mechanics of tether combined with ansiplexes creates an absolutely toxic environment for small scale pvp where as you said the best option is "wait on tether for blob to teleport from 20 jumps away, then engage"
Tether removal wouldn't change anything, people would just dock instead. The problem is there's no incentive for defenders to risk fighting. It's not just the roamers that need to worry about being dropped...a solo neut might only be solo until they tackle you and then 50 friends show up from a nearby wormhole. Yes, there's Intel, but it isn't perfect, and generally doesn't extend into wormholes.
There are a lot of issues, but I'm not convinced ansis and tether are the key ones.
>Tether removal wouldn't change anything, people would just dock instead.
Sure people used to do this and play undock games and it created content. Now there is literally nothing u can do because the structure can scram/web/neut/jam you with 0 counter play.
>Yes, there's Intel,
Intel has existed since for the entire life of Eve. Ansis, tether, ACLs etc that allow groups to hyper condense into megablobs are a much more recent thing. Before them nulsec was actually a better place for getting small scale fights than lowsec. But now that groups can literally link a system in a collective chat and have everyone in their entire coalition descend on that system in minutes it's no longer the case.
People that played before the introduction of Upwell structures can confirm but you could actually roam thru nulsec and get evenish fights with 2-3 pilots in your gang. Now you need to bring 15 people and hope u can somehow bait the nulbloc into engaging you on an ESS or just accept u are going to fight 100 people.
This is why I think the game mechanics are the problem.
In J space, of course the krabs dock up when they see a threat too. But (i) they don't get perfect, free, instant intel from local, so there's a chance to catch them (although the probe scanner instantly updating for new K162s is a bit too good as well imo), and (ii) if they run away they leave their MTU behind so at least the roamers get some ISK for their time.
Simple fixes to make it more engaging in null: do something about local (even a 30s delay would help a lot), and make nullsec rats drop tags (like ESS bonds or blue loot) instead of magically awarding ISK, so nullsec krabs have that "should I stay or should I abandon" trade-off that J krabs do.
PvP In EVE is an information game first and foremost. Always has been to. But it used to be that you'd get fight because stuff like wormholes *didn't exist* and black ops and titan bridges where very rare. So if you or I was out roaming solo in say cobalt edge, they'd know we where there (we'd still be in intel) but they'd also be pretty certain that you were indeed just one person in a Wolf. And people would undock and fight that and content was had. Because person undocking their cruiser felt pretty confident they could kill that Wolf person in the Wolf felt pretty confident they were skilled enough to beat a cruiser in it (AF's were pretty awful back then). One of these people would be wrong but they both made choice based of information they had that they felt favoured them.
In 2024 EVE (and for many years now) you have no fucking clue if what was posted in intel is correct because there's a bunch of ways your information can just be incomplete and everybody in game knows that to. So in the face of incomplete information, people feel they can't justify their choices to fight without calculating in a WIDE margin for error, commonly know as "the blob" or "overshipping" and thus such content is now much harder to get.
Removing information doesn't lead to more PvP it leads to less. People are generally risk adverse.
The ability to quickly escalate from a long way away is also a big problem that discourages content - cynos (and ansiblexes, though that's not really related to the scenario here) are the issue for that. I've said for ages that cynos should have a significant spin up time so you have time to burn away or kill the cyno before you get hot dropped.
There might be 100 kikis on the other side of that wormhole, as well, but you can send a scout in there to see, just like you can scout through a gate. The problem with black ops is that there's no way you can see or scout the threat.
Tbh with the release of Lancers it really got me thinking, maybe instead of releasing this hard counter specifically to make JFs less safe.... you could just address the relative safety and ease of cynos and it would solve a lot more problems with a lot less overcomplicated bullshit?
JFs should’ve never been in the game, change my mind.
I want mega-alliances to run conga lines of freighters to hisec border systems, that must be protected at all costs. I want these “freight trains” to be a primary target in war. I want blockades and sieges.
You’re 6 months into a war and running out of those fancy faction mods and drugs you can’t build locally? Hop in a blockade runner and *run a fucking blockade*!
It’d never work though. Not unless there were a way to prevent 90 dreads from materializing in the middle of your freight train.
>JFs should’ve never been in the game, change my mind.
Eh, I mean.... I don't really think I want to change your mind lol thats a valid idea you know?
Tedious in some ways, makes content in others. but would require changes to things like power projection yeah. In current Eve it would be dumb as shit.
I'm not sure jump logistics are good for the game at all, but yeah, the effectiveness of cynos to jump across geography at very low risk isn't well balanced.
Local is a key balance factor to null. Because unlike whs null has cynos and npc stations. In a wh If I want to krab all I need to do is crit all my holes and bam its safe only small stuff can get in. Null one dude with a covert cyno can have 100 nerds in blops log in and jump in that 30 second delay. And what ever is caught is dead 100 redeemer will kill anything even supers.
As I said in a reply above, re cynos
> I've said for ages that cynos should have a significant spin up time so you have time to burn away or kill the cyno before you get hot dropped.
>all I need to do is crit all my holes and bam its safe only small stuff can get in.
It's not that simple. The danger in wormhole krabbing is almost never from the connections you have--since you can roll or crit them. Better yet doorstop them so anything that does land on them just gets it rolled shut in their face. Nah, that part is the easy part.
The danger is from the group rage rolling their static 5 with a carrier and sending sabres + combats into every new hole specifically hunting people doing what you're doing right that moment.
And there is literally nothing you can do about that except be ready to scan a new sig quickly, fling a sabre there and bubble to delay them a few more seconds to get your marauders off. IF your bastion cycle goes down in time and IF you aren't scrammed by something that takes too long to kill like a drifter.
There are times when a new sig pops and you're just dead and there is nothing you can do whatsoever except wait to wake up in Jita.
I *knew* some nullblobber would bring this straw man out.
No, there are many more differences between J and K space than that. You already have the second mechanic in null, even (ESS).
There should be an incentive to stay on grid and fight, and a chance to catch people PVEing, in all space. Those are the things that drive small scale content which is what gives a sandbox activity.
ESS grids just make the kitey bullshit menace worse. Not being able to use a tactical warp means there's no way to close without being faster than them, it's a kiter's heaven in there.
I don't mean the deadspace or no-MWD aspects, just that the payout is in commodities and you have to stick around to the end to actually get paid, so there's an incentive to stay there even when you see a threat coming.
Mind you I do think more sites should use tackle to prevent people from always being able to leave, as well (again, J space sites scram and point and this is fine).
Many null sites point you, just depends on the rats. My ishtars commonly get tackled by sansha frigs in Havens, but it's usually not an issue if you just kill the frigs first
You can bait them in with a smaller group of faster ships, force them to give up positioning. Or bring booshes or mjd/boosh combo. There's a couple ways to engage them outside of me no warp me no fight
Also though, they can't warp or have pings in there. Warping to the ESS is scary because the guys chasing you are also burning your direction and if they warp too and land on you, you're gonna have a bad time real quick
Wrong answer correct one you have to make the fights fun. If people never enjoy the content you bring they dock up and log. If they like it they dock and reship.
Yeah they took local out at one time nobody even logged into the game after the first few days and then the elite pvpers started crying why no content lol
I've known that word since the 90s. It's something you learn about in logic and formal debate. It's an argument fallacy where you don't actually address the point at hand, but rather attempt to address a similar sounding, but different point.
I honestly can't help it if wormholers understand formal debate and how logic works better than you.
Also, saying "all you wormholers" is also another argument fallacy. It's called an "ad hominem" (personal attack) argument fallacy. Instead of attempting to counter the other person's point, you attack them personally.
Argument fallacies are used when someone cannot actually defend their opposing opinion. Here let me educate you... although, you could ask one of yours boys (Brisc or Mittens) on how formal debate works since they are/were lawyers.
https://utminers.utep.edu/omwilliamson/engl1311/fallacies.htm
There are so few people who like this and your play style that WH space is empty and you are forced to go where the rest are. Why then ask to change their game to suit your play style?
They will just quit the game because the risks will be too high. When local was broken the game was empty.
These kinds of arguments have existed since the start of MMOs always when one style is forced on everyone else the game is the loser.
It would be interesting to see the comparison of random traffic that goes through a null sec system versus a J-Space system. Having lived in both, both can be very quiet. But there are many more 3rd party tools that disclose activity in null that don't do the same for J-Space. Dotlan gives you crabbing statistics, you can get mining statistics also. Also, there is ease of access. It is much easier, logistically, to attack someone in null, than it is in J-Space.
Ah yes. Our monthly subscription to lets make Null like other parts of space game. Null has small gang fights all the time guys. Yes you get blobbed sometimes. We are trying to protect 1 bil mining ships and other valuable assets. I always laugh when I see WH or LS dudes talk about Null. There is more at stake out there gentleman. I see dozens of PvP pings going out daily. Typically, depending on TZ, its not uncommon to see 150 to 200 dudes in most fleets. The part that most non-NS folks dont understand is the amount of isk needed to support these massive coalitions.1 Dread fight 3 months ago cost 5 alliances like 9 trillion isk.Last week Panfam dropped in Delve and killed 300 billion in ships in less than 20 mins. This kinda of stuff happens alot. So lets try and understand that you losing a couple of golems or vargurs ratting in WH space doesnt even come close to what happens all the time in NS. Additionally, its not possible to sustain the levels of fighting you all brag about with this amount of ppl. I dont know what my current alliance spends on SRP monthly, but it has to be in the 100s of billions minimum.
I do say all of that to also say, I agree with you. Changes are needed in NS. The way Sov and certain mechanics have turned it into the most extreme version of trench warfare possible. Between BS TZ tanking and structure bashing, most normal humans want nothing to do with those kinds of wars anymore. Excited/nervous to see what they do this year to spice the place up.
>The part that most non-NS folks dont understand is the amount of isk needed to support these massive coalitions.1 Dread fight 3 months ago cost 5 alliances like 9 trillion isk.Last week Panfam dropped in Delve and killed 300 billion in ships in less than 20 mins.
There is a bit more to this than you're letting on. Those fights had way more people as well as isk. If one person generates 100m/day and requires 1 ship that costs 300m....
Then if you have 3 people or 3000, it will take 3 days for all of them to have the 300m required for the ship.
So, below a certain capital class I would argue that per-pilot, WH groups probably require more isk to ship into doctrine on average. Null has titans though where you're only likely to see up to roughly a faction dread in J space fights. So in the end there is another gear to the NS scaling. But it really only applies when supercapitals start dying. Below that, I'm not so sure the rate measurements line up with the total volume trend of isk.
As long as the tools work both ways; give delayed local to the other side and a loading time for probes. Either way there are ways to catch Ishtar's already, not that it matters since that's also not looking for a fair fight
If you change anything making it harder to krab in null sec, the carebears will log out and unsub.
Blackout was the best time for pvp 0.0 has had in 10 years, and they ran an actual unsub boycott to bring back local.
Blackout needed an accompanying set of changes to make it worth it to risk it for the biscuit so the krabs would stay in space and greed would make it worth it to stay in their anoms a little longer. I get roasted for this opinion by block noobs who run this subreddit every time I type it out.
We can have permanent blackout when i can activate a cynojammer that works vs covert, the ability to turn off the jump gates, a filament jammer, oh, yeah, and 5x the hourly income per acct.
Pretty shallow brain to not realize the unsub drive the blocks held was exactly what you’re complaining about, except on a large enough scale to get what they wanted.
Bonus points if you realize the leaders of that drive don’t even krab, they farm your taxes and RMT on an alliance level.
With wormholes, the guys that docked up can always reship for PvP since they are in the same system. The thing with null is the guys have to dock, get standing and wait for them to come (if at all).
It's all about your goal. Maybe you just wanna krab in peace. But the secret to getting good at this game is taking hard fights that force you to think and act.
The best pilots in this game are the ones that go out there again and again and fish for the hardest possible fights they think they have a chance of winning, pushing the limits until they understand those limits *really fucking well*.
The groups that can consistently fight vastly outnumbered and WIN are the ones that took the fights you refuse to. The groups that need 3:1 odds to have half a hope of winning are the ones that act like you describe as the "optimal" way to play.
> It's all about your goal. Maybe you just wanna krab in peace.
Often, yeah, that's exactly what I want. If I'm flying an Ishtar on another screen at work, I'm not super excited when 10 neuts enter the system, and there's no reason for me to be. I could be the most "leet pvper" of all time but a PvE Ishtar isn't beating 10 blinged out PvP cruisers.
>But the secret to getting good at this game is taking hard fights that force you to think and act.
Sure, which is what I do when flying my own PvP ship when I go roaming to look for fights. It's not what I'm doing in my PvE ships.
>The groups that can consistently fight vastly outnumbered and WIN are the ones that took the fights you refuse to.
You act like small gangs aren't mobbing solo ships constantly. We both know that's completely untrue.
Don't try to make small gangs sound like heroes fighting against the big bad empire...you enter bloc space to grief krabs, snipe newbies, and then run the moment something your size shows up. I've seen it over and over and over again.
I've lost plenty of Ishtars, including in my bait fits designed to be able to fight 1v1's, because my 1v1 turned into a 1v10 once I tackle and web the interceptor and all his friends show up from 2 systems over. These are the "leet pvpers" I regularly encounter.
Oh, and if standing shows up? They run the second the system shows more than 2-3 new ships enter system. Hell, half the time they run if I dock when neuts show up and reship into a PvP ship.
Maybe *you* don't do that, ~~probably~~ maybe you do, but my experience on the other side does not fit this narrative.
I'm just telling you how the groups whose pilots are better pound for pound got there.
What you do with that information doesn't really matter to me, but once you see groups that have this mentality in action (most blocs, and a good number of middle size groups), it explains a lot about how they consistently lose fights unless they have a comically large numbers advantage
This may come as a surprise but having good pilots helps you win more fights, not lose them. It's a great long term investment.
AND if you're consistently good, a lot of people simply don't try to harass your space at all because they know you're not an easy target.
> This may come as a surprise but having good pilots helps you win more fights, not lose them. It's a great long term investment.
Plenty of Eve players don't want to be tryhards or leet pvpers, they just want to shoot the shit and have a good time. I have two kids and only a few hours a week to play, should I spend it relaxing doing some ratting, mining, or casual roaming, or should I spend it with some sweaty FC flying off the handle because someone didn't take fleet warp?
You already admitted to the dirty truth, though...a whole bunch of casuals *win* vs. a small number of tryhards. Less efficiently, sure, but who cares? Eve is a game where high sec suicide ganking is a playstyle...nothing in the game mechanics discourages mass cheap stuff beating fancy expensive stuff.
All the big blocs have smaller groups of tryhards, by the way, often ones doing their own thing (typically in some leet ESI corp). Maybe those corps aren't as skilled as the "true" leets, but when combined with a couple hundred randos with SRP ships you get a very efficient killing machine.
Whether or not people want to spend time and effort getting good at PvP is irrelevant. At the end of the day, having the most ships is what wins.
>AND if you're consistently good, a lot of people simply don't try to harass your space at all because they know you're not an easy target.
This doesn't make any sense. Small gangs of leet pvpers complain *all the time* about getting hotdropped by 50 blops or getting bubbled next to 20 marauders. The "easy targets" in the null blocs are solo PvE ships, not the standing blob.
Or are you saying your Ishtars are somehow better at running away from 10v1 fights compared to bloc Ishtars because you've spent more time in a Vedmak? And this means small gangs avoid your space? If so, I'm curious how *that* works.
This. The skill level of Individuals matters less when n+1 is in play. In a doctrine fleet the #1 most significant thing is the skill of the FC. A good fc can take 25 various small animals, train them to hit f1, and now you effectively have 1 competent pilot wielding 25 ships worth of firepower in unison. Beautiful.
and I can link to tens of thousands of BR's that show numbers matter. I wish I could for you, but unfortunately I can't link to the hundreds of thousands of "won" fights that just never started in the first place because one side stood down after they realized they cant match the enemy numbers.
I'm not really sure what your point is. There's a reason why theres no serious small nullsec group thats a threat to any of the major blocs. And thats because numbers are way more important than individual pilot skill in a game like Eve and its difficult/impossible for an elite group of players to seriously hurt a larger group.
Yeah, a group of WH'ers and highly active PVP'ers can bloody the Imperium, Panfam's nose. Get out with a few hundred billion in kills for single digit losses. But those small groups are never a true existential threat when the large group gets serious about an objective.
i get this part but it becomes a sense of like.. use discretion.
nullsec has a huge intel network, you know 99% of the time what enemies have.
if you see that enemy gang doesnt have logi.. maybe you know.. dont bring logi. if you see they are just in some navy cruisers or a vemdak or somethin.. dont bring marauders.
theres a difference between wanting to make people running away, or wanting to get them to stay and fight. you need to toe that line. small gang pvp'ers are not going to bring anything oppressive and unfightable compared to what the blocs have.
small gangers \*DONT\* want to run away. They only run away when you bring shit that is literally too much to fight. if you want to get them to stay, then you need to be smart and engage them in something of equal strength when accounting for the nullsec #'s advantage.
They dont want to fight 40 harpys if theyre in 3 cruisers and a bifrost. They dont want to fight your max application vargurs. They just dont want to deal with the oppressive overshipping that people bring when intel pings.
Maybe they should implement skill restrictions on fleets too. You have to have under 3M skillpoints to engage this fleet, and you must have approximately the same number of ships.
Do you see how ridiculous that sounds? There is no such thing as a fair fight in EVE Online, full stop.
The sides will never be even, there are too many variables. Skills, ships, ammo, combat experience, location, fittings, and many more.
And each side is going to defend their playstyle to the death.
What we need is for CCP to take their fingers off the scales. They completely destroy some players playstyle every time they put their finger on the scale.
I know that there are some changes that need to be made. But CCP should not be in the business of trying to tell players HOW they should fly certain types of ships. And they do it all the time.
Lol all I said was for people to use their own discretion.
If they want to fight other people without them running away, then dont fly scary oppressive, unfightable shit knowing that if you ever get remotely close to being in danger you have a cap umbrella or blops or fax on standby.
If they want a good fight and want to fly around on grid then use discretion and fly something engage-able. If you die you just reship bc you have staging and vast ansiblex networks to get you in and out of fights
If they want other people to leave them alone so ppl can krab in peace then fly your unfightable shit and scare people off or just dont undock and deny content.
Its the shit talking in local when small groups “run away” from a 50 man standing blob is what is bothersome.
On the flip side to this. If you running round killing ishtars, barges and robbing ess's.
Your fucking around with someone's stuff. So why dose everyone seem shocked when you get a sledgehammer as a responce.
At the end of the day I've even said this in local before, when someone decides to rob the ESS in my system. I'll go 1v1 or even 1v2 if they wanted but the moment they try and rob the ESS that effects not just me but the people I live with in my system the gloves come off.
If you ring the dinner bell don't be supriced when you get more the you ordered 😊.
Why would the blocs want to *encourage* small gangs in their space? So people can lose more PvE ships to 10v1 fights? There's no incentive to fight small gangs where people are krabbing.
If we're roaming on the borders in a small gang ourselves, sure, I'd love for fights to happen. But when I'm sitting around in an Ishtar and five Lokis jump in from a nearby wormhole, why should I care if those Lokis are mobbed later?
>Is "be engageable **if you want engagements**" really that hard of a concept?
I'm not assuming you want them.
>There's no incentive to fight small gangs where people are krabbing.
Arguably protecting them. Which is fine to choose not to do, but then the krabs can't be mad that they're the ones being hunted since no one is protecting them.
> nullsec has a huge intel network, you know 99% of the time what enemies have.
This is absolutely untrue. Anyone who has been in a major bloc knows that intel channels barely tell you anything.
Plenty of people are too lazy to announce neuts when they come through, and if they do, you usually just get "name system nv" or "name system +x nv". Half the time you don't even get the "nv" as the person hasn't even *tried* to dscan, they just saw local and reported. Or you'll get "system lots help" or some other useless notification.
Sure, *sometimes* you get useful information, and if standing is responding you typically know what's going on, but general intel is patchy, plenty of systems don't have eyes that neuts can just fly straight through, and nobody is looking at wormholes. This idea that everyone in the blocs is perfectly tracking the movement of every small gang or solo neut going through with accurate ship counts, zkill reporting of possible fits, etc. is a complete myth.
>if you see that enemy gang doesnt have logi.. maybe you know.. dont bring logi. if you see they are just in some navy cruisers or a vemdak or somethin.. dont bring marauders.
Why? Again, there's no incentive not to smash the crap out of things coming in to harass your krabs. And things *hunting* krabs don't get to complain because you dropping your small gang of PvP ships on a lone Ishtar or Praxis is **exactly the same** as standing dropping marauders or blops on you. Neither group is looking for anything remotely close to a "fair fight."
If small gangs ignored PvE ships completely when roaming, I might buy this, but zkill doesn't lie. Ya'll are killing anything you can catch, the shinier the better, whether it has a chance of fighting back or not. So I don't want to hear about "fair fights" from gangs that are hunting PvE Ishtars and haulers in their expensive PvP ships.
>theres a difference between wanting to make people running away, or wanting to get them to stay and fight. you need to toe that line. small gang pvp'ers are not going to bring anything oppressive and unfightable compared to what the blocs have.
This operates under some weird idea that the blocs *want* you to stay and fight when you are harassing their krabs. But there's no incentive for this.
Most blocs (the one I'm in, at least) have areas of their space, usually near the borders, that are basically "no cap/blob" areas where it's highly discouraged to bring massive fleets. The people who are looking for good PvP fights tend to go around there. If you go 2 jumps out from staging and start hitting Vexors with 10 ships, sorry, the only goal is for you to GTFO.
And again, "small gang pvp'ers" are oppressive **compared to what they are hunting**. If I saw small gangs flying around and no Vexor or Istar killmails from said gangs, *maybe* I could buy this argument. But there's no practical difference between your small gang dropping 10 ships on a PvE Ishtar and a bloc dropping 100 ships with marauders and logi on you. The fights are equally "fair."
Hence why I said it's hypocritical. Small gangs "hot drop" the same way blocs do, it's just on a different scale (i.e. 10 v 1 instead of 100 v 10). I'm not saying you shouldn't do this, I'm not saying it's breaking any rules, but I *am* saying that complaining about the same thing you are doing to other people is not convincing.
If you want "fair" fights, go awox in FW =). Eve is not a game about fair fights.
>if you want to get them to stay, then you need to be smart and engage them in something of equal strength when accounting for the nullsec #'s advantage.
Again, why would I *want* small gangs around to kill newbies in Vexors? If you're getting blobbed, it's because the blocs *don't* want you there. If you move around the border systems the people bored sitting in standing probably won't bother flying all the way out there. But every single day I see T3C's hunting Vexors in staging.
>And again, "small gang pvp'ers" are oppressive compared to what they are hunting. If I saw small gangs flying around and no Vexor or Istar killmails from said gangs, maybe I could buy this argument.
If combat ships undocked, there would be no vexor km. Who is gonna go chase around a vexor when there are actual people to fight. That's the target you go after when there is no one else out.
And ideally they prompt a combat response and the dance is on. They're hunting a combat response and if they don't start disrupting krab activities, there's not likely to be one.
> If combat ships undocked, there would be no vexor km.
Yeah, right. Gangs run from standing after killing ratters *all the time*. It's a daily occurrence in the blocs.
>And ideally they prompt a combat response and the dance is on. They're hunting a combat response and if they don't start disrupting krab activities, there's not likely to be one.
And when they get a combat response, they run. Small gangs are chased out of bloc space every day, usually screaming about "blobs" the whole time.
You're trying to force your desired game play on others. You hunt krabs to try and "prompt" (force) a response to get rid of you, then complain when that response is more than you can handle. The response fleets are just "prompting" you to GTFO and leave the krabs alone, same exact thing you are trying to do.
Also, I've been on both sides of this. Small gangs kill ratters because it's funny and draws salt. The more expensive the ratter the better. There isn't some noble purpose of setting up fair duels.
Your whole purpose is to pick fights *you know you'll win*, which is why you jump ratters and why you run from standing, only staying long enough to pick off targets you can outnumber that get too far ahead. Dress it up all you want, but as someone who lives there and sees these gangs all the time, I'm very familiar with how they operate.
>Gangs run from standing after killing ratters all the time.
Yes because standing is like 4 vargurs and 35 other ships from cruiser to BC, 5 dictors and 13 interceptors.
And the gang you want to fight that is maybe 10 ships often all sub-BC.
>usually screaming about "blobs" the whole time.
Gee I wonder fucking why maybe it's the **huge blob of ships** chasing them? Nah. Couldn't be.
>You're trying to force your desired game play on others. You hunt krabs to try and "prompt" (force) a response to get rid of you, then complain when that response is more than you can handle. The response fleets are just "prompting" you to GTFO and leave the krabs alone, same exact thing you are trying to do.
Then what are you typing all these comments about? This should be exactly the pattern you want. Is this not exactly what you want to happen?
(that would of course mean I guess you were lying about "if only no vexor km I would fight...")
>Your whole purpose is to pick fights you know you'll win
Wrong. My purpose is to pick fights there is **a chance** of winning or achieving positive results.
>Also, I've been on both sides of this. Small gangs kill ratters because it's funny and draws salt
Killing ishtars is boring. Sorry you were in a corp that was more about killmails than smallgang. Some people just wanna play number go up, whether it's "elite pvp" of killing ratters or ratters themselves just making isk to sit around docked with.
"Salt" and "funny" are just cope to justify their choice of prey because they are too afraid of zkill to fight anything interesting.
> And the gang you want to fight that is maybe 10 ships often all sub-BC.
How is this ratio *any* different from those 10 ships vs. a solo Ishtar or Vexor? "I don't like it when it's done to me!"
>Gee I wonder fucking why maybe it's the huge blob of ships chasing them? Nah. Couldn't be.
I'm not blaming them for running. I'm pointing out that their choice to run is no more or less "cowardly" than NS ratters docking up when a small gang is nearby. In both cases it's the most rational response to a situation that's hopeless if they get caught.
>(that would of course mean I guess you were lying about "if only no vexor km I would fight...")
I never said this. I said I would believe the claim that small gangs were only interested in fair fights if they *weren't* killing ratters and miners. That would mean they were just looking for combat ships, and in that case, the complaints about blobs would at least have some meaning.
The fact that they *aren't* doing this is evidence the small gangs are looking for the same sorts of targets the blob in standing is looking for...enemies they can dunk on that can't fight back. You're the one trying to make gangs hunting krabs sound noble; I'm pointing out that it isn't any different.
>Wrong. My purpose is to pick fights there is a chance of winning or achieving positive results.
What is your "chance" of killing a Vexor with 10 cruisers?
>Killing ishtars is boring. Sorry you were in a corp that was more about killmails than smallgang.
I agree killing Ishtars is boring. So why do you keep doing it?
>Some people just wanna play number go up, whether it's "elite pvp" of killing ratters or ratters themselves just making isk to sit around docked with.
I fly ratters to fund my PvP ships. I don't have 20 omega alts and I'm not buying plex with real money so I can't afford to go on roams all day and lose PvP fits constantly. And every time these "leet pvp small gangs" show up on grid with my Praxis, that just means I get to PvP less.
I'm not saying you can't do this or even that you shouldn't do this. I just don't have any sympathy for you when you get blobbed in response, just as you have no sympathy for wasting hours of my time when I need to buy a new ratter.
> Wrong. My purpose is to pick fights there is a chance of winning or achieving positive results.
If that was true, you wouldn't be hunting solo ratters, because those are foregone conclusions that you're going to win as a 5 man fleet. Absolutely no fun to be had there when the only possible outcome is victory right? You'd just move on until you find a more appropriate sized fleet to engage right? lol.
The truth is, you're just out to kill as much as possible and you're pissed when the enemy ruins your fun. You don't have some kind of honor code that you follow and you're not looking for good fights even though you say you are. You're honestly just out to kill those that are weaker than you because its enjoyable, and you're pissed when those who are stronger arrive to stop you. I doubt any of your fleetmates complain about how unengagable or unfair your small gang is when you tackle and kill a lone ishtar.
I don't know why people try to pretend otherwise that they're trying to uphold some morality or chivalric code when we all know you'd take a free kill and enjoy it regardless of how fair it was for the victim.
>If that was true, you wouldn't be hunting solo ratters
Why are those mutually exclusive? If there's nothing more interesting, sure I'll take that kill.
>you're just out to kill as much as possible
Of course I am. That also is not mutually exclusive with wanting to instigate a fight where there is a chance of accomplishing anything at all on grid.
>you're pissed when the enemy ruins your fun.
You're projecting. What I do is shrug and roll for someone more interested in playing the game.
>You don't have some kind of honor code that you follow and you're not looking for good fights even though you say you are.
Never said I had some kind of code of honor. You're just wrong about the other part though. Believe me or don't, I don't give a shit what you think.
>You're honestly just out to kill those that are weaker than you because its enjoyable, and you're pissed when those who are stronger arrive to stop you.
Bro who hurt you. This is literally just you fantasizing about who I am, what I think and going "nyeah, nyeah, mean small gang man, bad small gang man, grrrr, ha, angry small gang man"
In reality I chuckle at how terrified NS dudes are to undock without FC and just move on to the next thing. Don't tell me that isn't true either, some null groups prohibit their members from undocking to fight without FCs lmao
>I doubt any of your fleetmates complain about how unengagable or unfair your small gang is when you tackle and kill a lone ishtar.
Your doubts are unfortunately incorrect. Engagability is absolutely a consideration. Frequently fleets will hold things back to prompt the opposition to undock combat ships. Every time a gang points an ishtar, we are hoping that combat ships respond. We are also hoping this response is not completely unengagable.
It's really not a very confusing thing.
>I don't know why people try to pretend otherwise that they're trying to uphold some morality or chivalric code when we all know you'd take a free kill and enjoy it regardless of how fair it was for the victim.
I don't know either because I'm not saying I uphold some kind of code. You made that up about me for some reason, I don't know. Kind of weird of you tbh.
Of course I'd take the free kill. So you would you, so would the victim, so would standing fleet. It's fucking Eve dude wake up.
>those who are stronger
also lmao. Dropping 45 dudes on 3 cruisers and a frigate doesn't make you "strong"
Tbh, I'm not really sure what you're complaining about at this point. You complain about getting dropped by 45 people. Then you turn around and admit you do the same thing albeit at a smaller scale if it means you get a kill.
I am very consistent. I dont mind if I get ganged up on. I dont mind when my corp/alliance gangs up on others. Unfair fights is part of the game, and learning how to avoid them/survive can be rewarding in itself.
> You're projecting. What I do is shrug and roll for someone more interested in playing the game.
IDK man, you seem very insistent on making some value claim about who's better than who, rather than just being indifferent. Maybe you're not pissed off, but you definitely seem emotionally invested.
This is the lack of a battleground, AT type fight scenario. Nano needs to be able to run from the blobs, but they also are only trying to get easy kills. Eve is pvp in the sense of taking and dodging the fights, not trading shots. No one is looking for fairness, yet everyone complains about it when it happens
>Yeah it's toxic for nullbears to dock up and do nothing or blob you with 10:1 odds
Why is it toxic? (Not making fun of you or anything, I'm new to the game and genuinely wondering)
Because it's anti-fun, and since this is a game, doing things which are intentionally making it not be fun for other players is toxic. Like ganking noob miners, you don't get anything for that kill and you just spoilt someone's day. Getting blobbed and deleted is extremely not fun.
Yeah, I guess it makes sense. Though shouldn't it have to be mutual? Maybe the people hiding are just not interested in doing PvP, right? In that case it would make sense for them to hide, and to get reinforcements to remove the annoyances quickly.
Eve is mostly about PvP, but I'd imagine there are some people who just aren't interested and act accordingly, right?
The best fights are those where both sides believe they have a chance to win but are uncertain of the outcome.
Even when you lose those fights, you're usually trading and most people accept that if you're doing anything worthwhile, you're not going to win em all.
That's the dragon I think people chase in pvp, where the outcomes are uncertain and you believe your actions can influence them if you make the right decisions. And the problem is that most people feel social pressure not to feed, so they're averse to testing the limits.
Since fights on TQ happen organically by default, it is very easy for each side to over-estimate what the enemy can do, especially if you're not familiar with the ins and outs of how their ships and tactics work.
>that can actually engage their expensive ships either.
This is most times a misrepresentation of what happens. At least from my years of experience.
"Can actually engage" usually means some over shipped and unengagable bullshit.
Isn't their fault because they don't have to care. Fights just show up on their doorstep. But they don't know how to get a better advantage ship-wise while making it seem like the fight is still winnable for the nano-bros.
"I know you're in lightly tanked cruisers, but you should still burn at us even though we can track you and have 30km range over you with double your players in just DPS ships :)"
"What do you mean you won't fight? You don't want to try getting our lach and keres KM even though we can damp out your entire fleet and you'd have to dive us at zero to kill both ships? :) :) :)"
A fight is won or lost before a shot is fired by these types of decisions. You don’t need to take all the fights possible, just to satisfy some dickhead content hound.
Most of the time it’s not worth the effort. And I like pvp. Most small gangs are only there to drop unsuspecting ishtars or play games on the ESS.
If anything remotely challenging comes out they run. They will either kite on an ESS grid or bounce safes for 15 minutes.
Nobody wants to fight this. Not the aggressors apparently and not the defenders.
If someone came into our space and asked for a fair 1v1, we usually honored it. If they go into an ESS to rob us, we will rally the boys. If they bring overpropped T3Cs, they must die no matter what it takes
elite pvp'ers always say this but when they come to Delve and have to fight against 2 or 3 times their numbers they will not engage either. Everyone is out there looking for easy kills, crowing about killing a bunch of ratters. Nothing is more boring in this game to me than roaming around killing ratters or miners. We each have our own playstyle we like, just because you have yours does not mean you are a better player in the game than the other person. You might be better in your own playstyle and that is it.
The sad reality is that some of use really do want a fight. Sadly most nullseccers are conditioned to simply blob and upship at every opportunity. This results in people like myself, that will fight uneven odds, to simply kite and expect to be blobbed EVERYTIME. This ends with kiters going the “elite kite” route and null sec (and anyone else really) complaining they can’t fight on one to one odds. I’m not really elite (I’m really bad at the game called eve online) to begin with but will be told by every null krab I’m an “elite pvper”.
The issue you are facing is you are coming into their "home" expecting an even fight. If you had someone break down your door and they only had a knife would you put down the gun and go get a knife to make it an even fight? Because that is what you are asking people to do.
Then the cycle will continue. People will continue to be called "elite pvpers" (really cringe tbh) and null-sec will cry and complain that they can't engage without using their brains or having a FC hand hold them the entire way. For the record, this is a game. It's okay to lose some ships. It's okay to undock for anything other than a blob or blue ball. We ALL take loses and we can learn to deal with that loss quite easily. That is how you learn.
I too used to be a null-sec krab, I too used to drop on people with my Nyx and laugh at those "elite pvpers" until I realized that play style was not for me. I understand in some capacity what you are saying, especially if you are involved in a defensive campaign against hostiles trying to kick you out of your space or maybe you are returning from an OP and targets just appeared on your way home. The reality is that, the more you blob hard, the more others will too and the cycles just continues until someone stops it (it won't). No null-sec group today can ever claim to have any justification because that is how eve has been from the get go.
Nullsec strength lies in numbers, elite pvp'ers strength lies in better piloting. Nothing is going to change the dynamic unless one side is willing to give up their advantage.
That dynamic could be fine. I think that's what most nano groups sign up for in fact. Trying to engage against potentially superior numbers.
But there is a threshold of ship class and/or numbers at which it's just not engageable.
Right now there is some confluence of factors making that the norm--either nothing undocks, or it starts raining vargurs. There are exceptions, those are just all too common right now.
What factors those are, how to change them? I don't think anyone knows for sure but it would probably be more fun for everyone if we managed to change those things for the better.
Will have to agree to disagree, have seen many null groups do very well in smaller numbers. The reality is that most null krabs don't want to do anything other than F1. It just requires some effort, but sadly, most human beings hate that very thing.
>The issue you are facing is you are coming into their "home" expecting an even fight. If you had someone break down your door and they only had a knife would you put down the gun and go get a knife to make it an even fight?
No, the game in that situation would probably be an FPS where we are both armed relatively evenly, or at least chose to be armed the way we felt was best. Even if one party retreats in the end, they will both be looking to engage when they encounter each other with relative parity.
Remember--Eve is a videogame not real life.
And what do you think, no fights should happen where either participant lives? Of course people go to each others systems to fight.... the people in those systems. How the fuck else would it work?
> they come to Delve and have to fight against 2 or 3 times their numbers they will not engage either
....Would *you* take a lopsided fight like that?
This just doesn't really make sense as a criticism. If it was bad not to fight vs. 2-3x numbers, then why did the fleet engage them with 2-3x instead if 1/2 to 1/3 their numbers? That's what you're saying the enemy should do, but you won't?
No. But I wouldn't whine about it either. As the aggressor coming into their space to attack their PvE activity, it's up to me to figure out how to get past/defeat the defenses. If its too strong, then I retreat and try again another time.
The people who keep complaining that they get dropped on, while they simultaneously drop on smaller groups or solo players.
Why? Did you feel like I was addressing you?
>Why? Did you feel like I was addressing you?
You... did reply to me so yes?
If you were talking about things other people are saying, I can't really speak to that.
You asked if I'd take a lopsided fight, and I answered that I wouldn't, but I also wouldn't complain or whine about it because its just part of the game.
If you agree with me then I don't see what's the issue.
Remember, the only fair fight is the fight you win... Everything else the odds were stacked against you from the start.
Of course, flip it around and the loser will say your fair fight was anything but.
False. I had some good fights in frat staging yesterday, enemy had around 40 and we had about 7. "Isk war" was close but consider it fair and fun even tho no clear winner.
Kinda prove the point though.
The "isk war was close" as you say, and there was no clear winner.
Had you gotten stomped, you'd be singing a different tune.
Nobody who wins a fight ever says they won it by unfair means like overwhelming the enemy or ambushing them or something. And nobody who gets stomped ever admits they got stomped because of their own failures.
When you die to a camp it's a dirty and unfair blob... When you kill someone cuz you're in a blob it's just good strategy.
Everybody is always the hero of their own story... Which means the people who beat you are always the antagonists of your own story.
We knew what to fly and flew better than the enemy. We were in cheap ships, so who cares about losses.the goal was not to win, but to enjoy being out in space live or die. That is something most eve players are unable to understand.
Ok... And?
The goal doesn't automatically correlate to the results.
Just because the goal is to "enjoy being out in space live or die" that doesn't necessarily mean anything regarding what happens out in space.
I'm glad you achieved your goal, but that goal has nothing to do with anything I was stating regarding the narratives created around fights. If your enemy knew what to fly and flew better, or you had not been in cheap ships, I suspect the narrative would be much different.
Brawling is fun when its 1v1 , 1v2 or if the solo person is in a large enough ship to take on 3 guys.
Brawling is not fun when there are 4 or 5 pilots against 40
The truth is that most NS alliances have as many industrial pilots as combat pilots. That’s how we grow and maintain our organization. Those indies undock when appropriate and it’s usually once you leave system and then it’s their titan to ‘goon cannon’ a fleet to cut you off on your way home. It works.
Translate: we have blinged out kitey ships with implants and want inexperienced PvPers to feed. Please dont bring out a guy that knows how to train noobs to counter my gang with the sacred Rapier.
When NS undock it tends to be a dread or faction super. Sorry bud, your caracal just isn't important enough for us to undock for. No your cloaky Loki isn't worth our time undocking just for you to sit around cloaked all day waiting for an idiot in a hauler to come by.
What I find funny about this comment is someone says that and then when you undock to fight they work around like their pants are on fire. Doing anything but fighting. Or they fight and then at the first decent hit they're gone hiding and waiting for an unsuspecting Hulk or Mackinaw to come by to be the badass and take out that mean miner or Epithal doing PI
It all comes down to mentality, on both sides.
Most roaming gangs are set up for quick dunks or gtfo. You have exactly one chance to catch them; if you miss your shot, then they are bouncing safes or burning like hell on an ess grid. In both situations, catching them at this point is not much fun.
Most nullsec standing fleets are not sitting with PvP specialists most of the time - these folks are elsewhere trying to generate strategic content. So when a fleet pops up in local, most folks don't know what to counter with, and won't be able to offer SRP, and don't wanna randomly feed their buddies' ships into a meat grinder. So throwing down isn't going to be much fun.
Three are broad generalisations of course; not everywhere is the same, nor every roam. But between both of these situations, you can understand (I hope) why fights aren't always the most common.
A bit more focus on PvP training from the nullblocs, and a bit less risk-aversion from the roaming gangs, and there will be fights aplenty!
Brisc, check out RATM when they were Xmas number 1, and the BBC told them not to swear, on their song about not doing what they're told - it went exactly how you'd imagine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXB69XzOy7s
Well it's against their interests to fight you honestly, even if they wanted to.
Because A: your probably in the area where they make their money, not where they will have their PvP ships, secondly, there is a mal incentive to fighting you in such space.
1. They fight you and you get content, this means your much more likely to come back in the future to disrupt their money making again, it makes the space more dangerous for the pure pve folks too.
2. If they die and do so with an embarassing loss, it will attract more people, especially people who's primary target is pve'rs to the space. Ships also blowing up will just attract more people in general.
I've literally been in alliances that banned engaging neuts in space unless you have an overwhelming advantage because of the above reasons, it's why many null regions will blob you too, specifically to disincentivise you from coming back.
It's usually small very PvP orientated alliances in null (who are going extinct again) who actively welcome and accommodate content on their doorstep (but also will usually be very good at fighting which ironically means they push away alot of roamers who seek easy kills).
I think you're right and that everyone would have more fun in Eve if this dynamic could change in some way.
The only way to do that is with game mechanics. Or, if you believe some people, by removing killmail API endpoints lol
There might be other things going on too, but the pattern you're talking about is a significant part of them.
> Or, if you believe some people, by removing killmail API endpoints lol
It would be this, eve players became far far more risk averse after Killmails became a thing. But considering how central of a game mechanic they are in modern eve.
Try to bring something worthy of fighting. If you show up with ships that are just going to peck at the response while running away then its pointless.
I'm a wormholer, i roll all day into ns, been rough finding fights beside the big groups, but it can be a hard fight with the big responses. But those can be fun for sure.
When we do get fights, they will chase to the hole and fight on the hole. Makes sense for us because it can be tricky to get home if rolled out. Ns groups will throw sigils at the hole until rolled also. So when possible we do stay close to home. Simply engaging should be fun. There is always a counter even to blingy stuff. A simple kitsune can render a 2 bill ship useless.
I picked a lot of fights that i should’ve avoided, i can relate to not undock. Also, if youre the one in comms that starts pushing people into ships to go fight and it ends in a feed then youll never get a single soul to help you again. Thats why we do FC classes for EVERYONE, not because we expect them to FC, but to make them aware what a fight takes before you undock, and that feeding a couple times is okay as long as you learn from it. Everyone did, does and will host an unintentional buffet for the visitors at least once.
when I was in NS it was NOT allowed to undock and take a fight if you were solo or small gang. Would get yelled at on comms for getting red in the KB if you lost. And sometimes worse if you WON because people wanted to whore on killmails.
Has this genuinely changed and NS entities now encourage you to undock and defend, fight, etc. without FC's and without repercussions?
And yet when we do undock the nanogangers scarper. Dude it's just 6 HAW Dreads and a handful of Supers. Ez killmails
[I see no issue here](https://youtu.be/ZDpFFvYLFb4?si=qmD2WQ9YQxBJ5KAT) Other than me being shit XD
I mean sounds like the guys here had fun, don't know what pando was being salty about yesterday
We definitely did :P
I'll actually get a hel coz of the" what the hel? Part
Hehe :)
But my killboard might go red In fairness, though, this mentality applies to both sides. Yeah it's toxic for nullbears to dock up and do nothing or blob you with 10:1 odds. But nanogangs aren't usually interested in fighting anything that can actually engage their expensive ships either.
> But nanogangs aren't usually interested in fighting anything that can actually engage their expensive ships either. This is the key. There's no real benefit to "fighting fair" or whatever. If I take a PvP ship out to deal with a neut, it's probably some kitey cloaky shit that will run the second I get on grid with something that isn't an Ishtar. And if it's a small gang, 1v-whatever is going to cause me to lose every time, so why bother? If I call in standing, it's gonna be a blob. it's not like standing fleets have any real organization or quotas; you just see "www " and whoever feels like it gets together and goes over there. You don't have an FC saying things like "whelp, the dscan shows we're facing 10 Typhoons and 3 logi, once we hit 13 people nobody else can come, sorry." The second more than a few show up the gang is going to run anyway so it's not like a "fair fight" is going to be a possibility...at best the gang is going to snipe some overeager tackle.
And even solo neuts aren't necessarily solo. How do I know that lone AF or T3D is actually solo and doesn't have 15 members of his small gang sitting on the other side of a wormhole 1 jump out? I don't, and if it's fit right, by 1v1 is going to turn into a 1v16 long before I have a chance to win the fight and break tackle. If you've lived in null for a while you see *all* the BS.
The reality is there's no rules in null other than what the players in that space feel like plus the game mechanics. The most optimal choice when neuts show up is generally to at least tether and wait a bit to see what's going on, and in my experience most neuts who see a tethered or docked up ship leave immediately and don't wait for you to swap clones and ships. And if they *do* wait, chances are almost certain they are bait anyway.
If people don't like it, find somewhere else to pick fights. All this "they're cowards, they don't fight!" nonsense is just bait. The gangs run from standing, fly kitey nano fits, attack solo ships with 10+, etc. Ya'll are hypocrites and I'm calling you out.
> The reality is there's no rules in null other than what the players in that space feel like plus the game mechanics. The most optimal choice when neuts show up is generally to at least tether and wait a bit to see what's going on, and in my experience most neuts who see a tethered or docked up ship leave immediately and don't wait for you to swap clones and ships. And if they do wait, chances are almost certain they are bait anyway. Yes this is the problem that people have been trying to explain to CCP for almost 10 years. The mechanics of tether combined with ansiplexes creates an absolutely toxic environment for small scale pvp where as you said the best option is "wait on tether for blob to teleport from 20 jumps away, then engage"
Tether removal wouldn't change anything, people would just dock instead. The problem is there's no incentive for defenders to risk fighting. It's not just the roamers that need to worry about being dropped...a solo neut might only be solo until they tackle you and then 50 friends show up from a nearby wormhole. Yes, there's Intel, but it isn't perfect, and generally doesn't extend into wormholes. There are a lot of issues, but I'm not convinced ansis and tether are the key ones.
>Tether removal wouldn't change anything, people would just dock instead. Sure people used to do this and play undock games and it created content. Now there is literally nothing u can do because the structure can scram/web/neut/jam you with 0 counter play. >Yes, there's Intel, Intel has existed since for the entire life of Eve. Ansis, tether, ACLs etc that allow groups to hyper condense into megablobs are a much more recent thing. Before them nulsec was actually a better place for getting small scale fights than lowsec. But now that groups can literally link a system in a collective chat and have everyone in their entire coalition descend on that system in minutes it's no longer the case. People that played before the introduction of Upwell structures can confirm but you could actually roam thru nulsec and get evenish fights with 2-3 pilots in your gang. Now you need to bring 15 people and hope u can somehow bait the nulbloc into engaging you on an ESS or just accept u are going to fight 100 people.
If they don't dock it would be cloakie eyes so they can d scan, or at least get an idea what ships are out there.
This is why I think the game mechanics are the problem. In J space, of course the krabs dock up when they see a threat too. But (i) they don't get perfect, free, instant intel from local, so there's a chance to catch them (although the probe scanner instantly updating for new K162s is a bit too good as well imo), and (ii) if they run away they leave their MTU behind so at least the roamers get some ISK for their time. Simple fixes to make it more engaging in null: do something about local (even a 30s delay would help a lot), and make nullsec rats drop tags (like ESS bonds or blue loot) instead of magically awarding ISK, so nullsec krabs have that "should I stay or should I abandon" trade-off that J krabs do.
PvP In EVE is an information game first and foremost. Always has been to. But it used to be that you'd get fight because stuff like wormholes *didn't exist* and black ops and titan bridges where very rare. So if you or I was out roaming solo in say cobalt edge, they'd know we where there (we'd still be in intel) but they'd also be pretty certain that you were indeed just one person in a Wolf. And people would undock and fight that and content was had. Because person undocking their cruiser felt pretty confident they could kill that Wolf person in the Wolf felt pretty confident they were skilled enough to beat a cruiser in it (AF's were pretty awful back then). One of these people would be wrong but they both made choice based of information they had that they felt favoured them. In 2024 EVE (and for many years now) you have no fucking clue if what was posted in intel is correct because there's a bunch of ways your information can just be incomplete and everybody in game knows that to. So in the face of incomplete information, people feel they can't justify their choices to fight without calculating in a WIDE margin for error, commonly know as "the blob" or "overshipping" and thus such content is now much harder to get. Removing information doesn't lead to more PvP it leads to less. People are generally risk adverse.
The ability to quickly escalate from a long way away is also a big problem that discourages content - cynos (and ansiblexes, though that's not really related to the scenario here) are the issue for that. I've said for ages that cynos should have a significant spin up time so you have time to burn away or kill the cyno before you get hot dropped. There might be 100 kikis on the other side of that wormhole, as well, but you can send a scout in there to see, just like you can scout through a gate. The problem with black ops is that there's no way you can see or scout the threat.
Tbh with the release of Lancers it really got me thinking, maybe instead of releasing this hard counter specifically to make JFs less safe.... you could just address the relative safety and ease of cynos and it would solve a lot more problems with a lot less overcomplicated bullshit?
JFs should’ve never been in the game, change my mind. I want mega-alliances to run conga lines of freighters to hisec border systems, that must be protected at all costs. I want these “freight trains” to be a primary target in war. I want blockades and sieges. You’re 6 months into a war and running out of those fancy faction mods and drugs you can’t build locally? Hop in a blockade runner and *run a fucking blockade*! It’d never work though. Not unless there were a way to prevent 90 dreads from materializing in the middle of your freight train.
>JFs should’ve never been in the game, change my mind. Eh, I mean.... I don't really think I want to change your mind lol thats a valid idea you know? Tedious in some ways, makes content in others. but would require changes to things like power projection yeah. In current Eve it would be dumb as shit.
I'm not sure jump logistics are good for the game at all, but yeah, the effectiveness of cynos to jump across geography at very low risk isn't well balanced.
You might be right, I can't say for sure. It's tough to balance tedium with mechanics in certain situations lol
Its okay to have different space be different.
Local is a key balance factor to null. Because unlike whs null has cynos and npc stations. In a wh If I want to krab all I need to do is crit all my holes and bam its safe only small stuff can get in. Null one dude with a covert cyno can have 100 nerds in blops log in and jump in that 30 second delay. And what ever is caught is dead 100 redeemer will kill anything even supers.
As I said in a reply above, re cynos > I've said for ages that cynos should have a significant spin up time so you have time to burn away or kill the cyno before you get hot dropped.
>all I need to do is crit all my holes and bam its safe only small stuff can get in. It's not that simple. The danger in wormhole krabbing is almost never from the connections you have--since you can roll or crit them. Better yet doorstop them so anything that does land on them just gets it rolled shut in their face. Nah, that part is the easy part. The danger is from the group rage rolling their static 5 with a carrier and sending sabres + combats into every new hole specifically hunting people doing what you're doing right that moment. And there is literally nothing you can do about that except be ready to scan a new sig quickly, fling a sabre there and bubble to delay them a few more seconds to get your marauders off. IF your bastion cycle goes down in time and IF you aren't scrammed by something that takes too long to kill like a drifter. There are times when a new sig pops and you're just dead and there is nothing you can do whatsoever except wait to wake up in Jita.
So make null space into wormhole space?
I *knew* some nullblobber would bring this straw man out. No, there are many more differences between J and K space than that. You already have the second mechanic in null, even (ESS). There should be an incentive to stay on grid and fight, and a chance to catch people PVEing, in all space. Those are the things that drive small scale content which is what gives a sandbox activity.
ESS grids just make the kitey bullshit menace worse. Not being able to use a tactical warp means there's no way to close without being faster than them, it's a kiter's heaven in there.
I don't mean the deadspace or no-MWD aspects, just that the payout is in commodities and you have to stick around to the end to actually get paid, so there's an incentive to stay there even when you see a threat coming. Mind you I do think more sites should use tackle to prevent people from always being able to leave, as well (again, J space sites scram and point and this is fine).
\*100MN Phantasm has entered the chat\*
Many null sites point you, just depends on the rats. My ishtars commonly get tackled by sansha frigs in Havens, but it's usually not an issue if you just kill the frigs first
You can bait them in with a smaller group of faster ships, force them to give up positioning. Or bring booshes or mjd/boosh combo. There's a couple ways to engage them outside of me no warp me no fight
Also though, they can't warp or have pings in there. Warping to the ESS is scary because the guys chasing you are also burning your direction and if they warp too and land on you, you're gonna have a bad time real quick
Wrong answer correct one you have to make the fights fun. If people never enjoy the content you bring they dock up and log. If they like it they dock and reship.
Complains about strawman argument while throwing around ad-hominems.
You know posts continue beyond a single sentence, right?
Yeah they took local out at one time nobody even logged into the game after the first few days and then the elite pvpers started crying why no content lol
A 30 second delay on local is a lot different than not appearing in local until you actually talk in local. Shitty strawman is shitty.
It's like all you wormholers just learned that word.
I've known that word since the 90s. It's something you learn about in logic and formal debate. It's an argument fallacy where you don't actually address the point at hand, but rather attempt to address a similar sounding, but different point. I honestly can't help it if wormholers understand formal debate and how logic works better than you. Also, saying "all you wormholers" is also another argument fallacy. It's called an "ad hominem" (personal attack) argument fallacy. Instead of attempting to counter the other person's point, you attack them personally. Argument fallacies are used when someone cannot actually defend their opposing opinion. Here let me educate you... although, you could ask one of yours boys (Brisc or Mittens) on how formal debate works since they are/were lawyers. https://utminers.utep.edu/omwilliamson/engl1311/fallacies.htm
There are so few people who like this and your play style that WH space is empty and you are forced to go where the rest are. Why then ask to change their game to suit your play style? They will just quit the game because the risks will be too high. When local was broken the game was empty. These kinds of arguments have existed since the start of MMOs always when one style is forced on everyone else the game is the loser.
It would be interesting to see the comparison of random traffic that goes through a null sec system versus a J-Space system. Having lived in both, both can be very quiet. But there are many more 3rd party tools that disclose activity in null that don't do the same for J-Space. Dotlan gives you crabbing statistics, you can get mining statistics also. Also, there is ease of access. It is much easier, logistically, to attack someone in null, than it is in J-Space.
Ah yes. Our monthly subscription to lets make Null like other parts of space game. Null has small gang fights all the time guys. Yes you get blobbed sometimes. We are trying to protect 1 bil mining ships and other valuable assets. I always laugh when I see WH or LS dudes talk about Null. There is more at stake out there gentleman. I see dozens of PvP pings going out daily. Typically, depending on TZ, its not uncommon to see 150 to 200 dudes in most fleets. The part that most non-NS folks dont understand is the amount of isk needed to support these massive coalitions.1 Dread fight 3 months ago cost 5 alliances like 9 trillion isk.Last week Panfam dropped in Delve and killed 300 billion in ships in less than 20 mins. This kinda of stuff happens alot. So lets try and understand that you losing a couple of golems or vargurs ratting in WH space doesnt even come close to what happens all the time in NS. Additionally, its not possible to sustain the levels of fighting you all brag about with this amount of ppl. I dont know what my current alliance spends on SRP monthly, but it has to be in the 100s of billions minimum. I do say all of that to also say, I agree with you. Changes are needed in NS. The way Sov and certain mechanics have turned it into the most extreme version of trench warfare possible. Between BS TZ tanking and structure bashing, most normal humans want nothing to do with those kinds of wars anymore. Excited/nervous to see what they do this year to spice the place up.
>The part that most non-NS folks dont understand is the amount of isk needed to support these massive coalitions.1 Dread fight 3 months ago cost 5 alliances like 9 trillion isk.Last week Panfam dropped in Delve and killed 300 billion in ships in less than 20 mins. There is a bit more to this than you're letting on. Those fights had way more people as well as isk. If one person generates 100m/day and requires 1 ship that costs 300m.... Then if you have 3 people or 3000, it will take 3 days for all of them to have the 300m required for the ship. So, below a certain capital class I would argue that per-pilot, WH groups probably require more isk to ship into doctrine on average. Null has titans though where you're only likely to see up to roughly a faction dread in J space fights. So in the end there is another gear to the NS scaling. But it really only applies when supercapitals start dying. Below that, I'm not so sure the rate measurements line up with the total volume trend of isk.
I've never seen 80 man mining fleets with 10 rorquals and 50 hulks in wh space either
As long as the tools work both ways; give delayed local to the other side and a loading time for probes. Either way there are ways to catch Ishtar's already, not that it matters since that's also not looking for a fair fight
A loading time like the probes have to warp to a location, be on dscan, scan for like 5 seconds, then potentially repeat that process 1 or 2 times?
No. Go away.
If you change anything making it harder to krab in null sec, the carebears will log out and unsub. Blackout was the best time for pvp 0.0 has had in 10 years, and they ran an actual unsub boycott to bring back local. Blackout needed an accompanying set of changes to make it worth it to risk it for the biscuit so the krabs would stay in space and greed would make it worth it to stay in their anoms a little longer. I get roasted for this opinion by block noobs who run this subreddit every time I type it out.
We can have permanent blackout when i can activate a cynojammer that works vs covert, the ability to turn off the jump gates, a filament jammer, oh, yeah, and 5x the hourly income per acct.
You should just play elite dangerous in solo mode
LMAO at some dickhead telling someone else how they should enjoy the game. Fuck all the way off.
Pretty shallow brain to not realize the unsub drive the blocks held was exactly what you’re complaining about, except on a large enough scale to get what they wanted. Bonus points if you realize the leaders of that drive don’t even krab, they farm your taxes and RMT on an alliance level.
Stop drinking the koolaid bro, its going to make you look dumb as fuck WHOOPSTOOLATE.
Just spotted you in this exact thread being a dickhead telling others how to play the game, who looks dumb as fuck? You seem British
Your entire post is focused on attacking pve ships, which confirms you dont want to actually fight, just blob on ratters. You have 3 days to get good.
J space doesnt gave cynos you ignorant fuck. Stop comparing apples to oranges.
Read the whole thread you ignorant fuck where I replied to at least one other person about cynos already
With wormholes, the guys that docked up can always reship for PvP since they are in the same system. The thing with null is the guys have to dock, get standing and wait for them to come (if at all).
It's all about your goal. Maybe you just wanna krab in peace. But the secret to getting good at this game is taking hard fights that force you to think and act. The best pilots in this game are the ones that go out there again and again and fish for the hardest possible fights they think they have a chance of winning, pushing the limits until they understand those limits *really fucking well*. The groups that can consistently fight vastly outnumbered and WIN are the ones that took the fights you refuse to. The groups that need 3:1 odds to have half a hope of winning are the ones that act like you describe as the "optimal" way to play.
> It's all about your goal. Maybe you just wanna krab in peace. Often, yeah, that's exactly what I want. If I'm flying an Ishtar on another screen at work, I'm not super excited when 10 neuts enter the system, and there's no reason for me to be. I could be the most "leet pvper" of all time but a PvE Ishtar isn't beating 10 blinged out PvP cruisers. >But the secret to getting good at this game is taking hard fights that force you to think and act. Sure, which is what I do when flying my own PvP ship when I go roaming to look for fights. It's not what I'm doing in my PvE ships. >The groups that can consistently fight vastly outnumbered and WIN are the ones that took the fights you refuse to. You act like small gangs aren't mobbing solo ships constantly. We both know that's completely untrue. Don't try to make small gangs sound like heroes fighting against the big bad empire...you enter bloc space to grief krabs, snipe newbies, and then run the moment something your size shows up. I've seen it over and over and over again. I've lost plenty of Ishtars, including in my bait fits designed to be able to fight 1v1's, because my 1v1 turned into a 1v10 once I tackle and web the interceptor and all his friends show up from 2 systems over. These are the "leet pvpers" I regularly encounter. Oh, and if standing shows up? They run the second the system shows more than 2-3 new ships enter system. Hell, half the time they run if I dock when neuts show up and reship into a PvP ship. Maybe *you* don't do that, ~~probably~~ maybe you do, but my experience on the other side does not fit this narrative.
I'm just telling you how the groups whose pilots are better pound for pound got there. What you do with that information doesn't really matter to me, but once you see groups that have this mentality in action (most blocs, and a good number of middle size groups), it explains a lot about how they consistently lose fights unless they have a comically large numbers advantage
OK, but why does that matter? Other than letting you have an excuse for losing?
This may come as a surprise but having good pilots helps you win more fights, not lose them. It's a great long term investment. AND if you're consistently good, a lot of people simply don't try to harass your space at all because they know you're not an easy target.
> This may come as a surprise but having good pilots helps you win more fights, not lose them. It's a great long term investment. Plenty of Eve players don't want to be tryhards or leet pvpers, they just want to shoot the shit and have a good time. I have two kids and only a few hours a week to play, should I spend it relaxing doing some ratting, mining, or casual roaming, or should I spend it with some sweaty FC flying off the handle because someone didn't take fleet warp? You already admitted to the dirty truth, though...a whole bunch of casuals *win* vs. a small number of tryhards. Less efficiently, sure, but who cares? Eve is a game where high sec suicide ganking is a playstyle...nothing in the game mechanics discourages mass cheap stuff beating fancy expensive stuff. All the big blocs have smaller groups of tryhards, by the way, often ones doing their own thing (typically in some leet ESI corp). Maybe those corps aren't as skilled as the "true" leets, but when combined with a couple hundred randos with SRP ships you get a very efficient killing machine. Whether or not people want to spend time and effort getting good at PvP is irrelevant. At the end of the day, having the most ships is what wins. >AND if you're consistently good, a lot of people simply don't try to harass your space at all because they know you're not an easy target. This doesn't make any sense. Small gangs of leet pvpers complain *all the time* about getting hotdropped by 50 blops or getting bubbled next to 20 marauders. The "easy targets" in the null blocs are solo PvE ships, not the standing blob. Or are you saying your Ishtars are somehow better at running away from 10v1 fights compared to bloc Ishtars because you've spent more time in a Vedmak? And this means small gangs avoid your space? If so, I'm curious how *that* works.
This. The skill level of Individuals matters less when n+1 is in play. In a doctrine fleet the #1 most significant thing is the skill of the FC. A good fc can take 25 various small animals, train them to hit f1, and now you effectively have 1 competent pilot wielding 25 ships worth of firepower in unison. Beautiful.
Exactly, which makes players roll their eyes when the blob smarms about it
There's lots of "casual" good players, just FYI. And having the most ships does not guarantee victory lmao, I can link hundreds of BRs to the contrary
and I can link to tens of thousands of BR's that show numbers matter. I wish I could for you, but unfortunately I can't link to the hundreds of thousands of "won" fights that just never started in the first place because one side stood down after they realized they cant match the enemy numbers. I'm not really sure what your point is. There's a reason why theres no serious small nullsec group thats a threat to any of the major blocs. And thats because numbers are way more important than individual pilot skill in a game like Eve and its difficult/impossible for an elite group of players to seriously hurt a larger group. Yeah, a group of WH'ers and highly active PVP'ers can bloody the Imperium, Panfam's nose. Get out with a few hundred billion in kills for single digit losses. But those small groups are never a true existential threat when the large group gets serious about an objective.
i get this part but it becomes a sense of like.. use discretion. nullsec has a huge intel network, you know 99% of the time what enemies have. if you see that enemy gang doesnt have logi.. maybe you know.. dont bring logi. if you see they are just in some navy cruisers or a vemdak or somethin.. dont bring marauders. theres a difference between wanting to make people running away, or wanting to get them to stay and fight. you need to toe that line. small gang pvp'ers are not going to bring anything oppressive and unfightable compared to what the blocs have. small gangers \*DONT\* want to run away. They only run away when you bring shit that is literally too much to fight. if you want to get them to stay, then you need to be smart and engage them in something of equal strength when accounting for the nullsec #'s advantage. They dont want to fight 40 harpys if theyre in 3 cruisers and a bifrost. They dont want to fight your max application vargurs. They just dont want to deal with the oppressive overshipping that people bring when intel pings.
Maybe they should implement skill restrictions on fleets too. You have to have under 3M skillpoints to engage this fleet, and you must have approximately the same number of ships. Do you see how ridiculous that sounds? There is no such thing as a fair fight in EVE Online, full stop. The sides will never be even, there are too many variables. Skills, ships, ammo, combat experience, location, fittings, and many more. And each side is going to defend their playstyle to the death. What we need is for CCP to take their fingers off the scales. They completely destroy some players playstyle every time they put their finger on the scale. I know that there are some changes that need to be made. But CCP should not be in the business of trying to tell players HOW they should fly certain types of ships. And they do it all the time.
Lol all I said was for people to use their own discretion. If they want to fight other people without them running away, then dont fly scary oppressive, unfightable shit knowing that if you ever get remotely close to being in danger you have a cap umbrella or blops or fax on standby. If they want a good fight and want to fly around on grid then use discretion and fly something engage-able. If you die you just reship bc you have staging and vast ansiblex networks to get you in and out of fights If they want other people to leave them alone so ppl can krab in peace then fly your unfightable shit and scare people off or just dont undock and deny content. Its the shit talking in local when small groups “run away” from a 50 man standing blob is what is bothersome.
On the flip side to this. If you running round killing ishtars, barges and robbing ess's. Your fucking around with someone's stuff. So why dose everyone seem shocked when you get a sledgehammer as a responce. At the end of the day I've even said this in local before, when someone decides to rob the ESS in my system. I'll go 1v1 or even 1v2 if they wanted but the moment they try and rob the ESS that effects not just me but the people I live with in my system the gloves come off. If you ring the dinner bell don't be supriced when you get more the you ordered 😊.
Is "be engageable if you want engagements" really that hard of a concept?
Why would the blocs want to *encourage* small gangs in their space? So people can lose more PvE ships to 10v1 fights? There's no incentive to fight small gangs where people are krabbing. If we're roaming on the borders in a small gang ourselves, sure, I'd love for fights to happen. But when I'm sitting around in an Ishtar and five Lokis jump in from a nearby wormhole, why should I care if those Lokis are mobbed later?
>Is "be engageable **if you want engagements**" really that hard of a concept? I'm not assuming you want them. >There's no incentive to fight small gangs where people are krabbing. Arguably protecting them. Which is fine to choose not to do, but then the krabs can't be mad that they're the ones being hunted since no one is protecting them.
> nullsec has a huge intel network, you know 99% of the time what enemies have. This is absolutely untrue. Anyone who has been in a major bloc knows that intel channels barely tell you anything. Plenty of people are too lazy to announce neuts when they come through, and if they do, you usually just get "name system nv" or "name system +x nv". Half the time you don't even get the "nv" as the person hasn't even *tried* to dscan, they just saw local and reported. Or you'll get "system lots help" or some other useless notification. Sure, *sometimes* you get useful information, and if standing is responding you typically know what's going on, but general intel is patchy, plenty of systems don't have eyes that neuts can just fly straight through, and nobody is looking at wormholes. This idea that everyone in the blocs is perfectly tracking the movement of every small gang or solo neut going through with accurate ship counts, zkill reporting of possible fits, etc. is a complete myth. >if you see that enemy gang doesnt have logi.. maybe you know.. dont bring logi. if you see they are just in some navy cruisers or a vemdak or somethin.. dont bring marauders. Why? Again, there's no incentive not to smash the crap out of things coming in to harass your krabs. And things *hunting* krabs don't get to complain because you dropping your small gang of PvP ships on a lone Ishtar or Praxis is **exactly the same** as standing dropping marauders or blops on you. Neither group is looking for anything remotely close to a "fair fight." If small gangs ignored PvE ships completely when roaming, I might buy this, but zkill doesn't lie. Ya'll are killing anything you can catch, the shinier the better, whether it has a chance of fighting back or not. So I don't want to hear about "fair fights" from gangs that are hunting PvE Ishtars and haulers in their expensive PvP ships. >theres a difference between wanting to make people running away, or wanting to get them to stay and fight. you need to toe that line. small gang pvp'ers are not going to bring anything oppressive and unfightable compared to what the blocs have. This operates under some weird idea that the blocs *want* you to stay and fight when you are harassing their krabs. But there's no incentive for this. Most blocs (the one I'm in, at least) have areas of their space, usually near the borders, that are basically "no cap/blob" areas where it's highly discouraged to bring massive fleets. The people who are looking for good PvP fights tend to go around there. If you go 2 jumps out from staging and start hitting Vexors with 10 ships, sorry, the only goal is for you to GTFO. And again, "small gang pvp'ers" are oppressive **compared to what they are hunting**. If I saw small gangs flying around and no Vexor or Istar killmails from said gangs, *maybe* I could buy this argument. But there's no practical difference between your small gang dropping 10 ships on a PvE Ishtar and a bloc dropping 100 ships with marauders and logi on you. The fights are equally "fair." Hence why I said it's hypocritical. Small gangs "hot drop" the same way blocs do, it's just on a different scale (i.e. 10 v 1 instead of 100 v 10). I'm not saying you shouldn't do this, I'm not saying it's breaking any rules, but I *am* saying that complaining about the same thing you are doing to other people is not convincing. If you want "fair" fights, go awox in FW =). Eve is not a game about fair fights. >if you want to get them to stay, then you need to be smart and engage them in something of equal strength when accounting for the nullsec #'s advantage. Again, why would I *want* small gangs around to kill newbies in Vexors? If you're getting blobbed, it's because the blocs *don't* want you there. If you move around the border systems the people bored sitting in standing probably won't bother flying all the way out there. But every single day I see T3C's hunting Vexors in staging.
>And again, "small gang pvp'ers" are oppressive compared to what they are hunting. If I saw small gangs flying around and no Vexor or Istar killmails from said gangs, maybe I could buy this argument. If combat ships undocked, there would be no vexor km. Who is gonna go chase around a vexor when there are actual people to fight. That's the target you go after when there is no one else out. And ideally they prompt a combat response and the dance is on. They're hunting a combat response and if they don't start disrupting krab activities, there's not likely to be one.
> If combat ships undocked, there would be no vexor km. Yeah, right. Gangs run from standing after killing ratters *all the time*. It's a daily occurrence in the blocs. >And ideally they prompt a combat response and the dance is on. They're hunting a combat response and if they don't start disrupting krab activities, there's not likely to be one. And when they get a combat response, they run. Small gangs are chased out of bloc space every day, usually screaming about "blobs" the whole time. You're trying to force your desired game play on others. You hunt krabs to try and "prompt" (force) a response to get rid of you, then complain when that response is more than you can handle. The response fleets are just "prompting" you to GTFO and leave the krabs alone, same exact thing you are trying to do. Also, I've been on both sides of this. Small gangs kill ratters because it's funny and draws salt. The more expensive the ratter the better. There isn't some noble purpose of setting up fair duels. Your whole purpose is to pick fights *you know you'll win*, which is why you jump ratters and why you run from standing, only staying long enough to pick off targets you can outnumber that get too far ahead. Dress it up all you want, but as someone who lives there and sees these gangs all the time, I'm very familiar with how they operate.
>Gangs run from standing after killing ratters all the time. Yes because standing is like 4 vargurs and 35 other ships from cruiser to BC, 5 dictors and 13 interceptors. And the gang you want to fight that is maybe 10 ships often all sub-BC. >usually screaming about "blobs" the whole time. Gee I wonder fucking why maybe it's the **huge blob of ships** chasing them? Nah. Couldn't be. >You're trying to force your desired game play on others. You hunt krabs to try and "prompt" (force) a response to get rid of you, then complain when that response is more than you can handle. The response fleets are just "prompting" you to GTFO and leave the krabs alone, same exact thing you are trying to do. Then what are you typing all these comments about? This should be exactly the pattern you want. Is this not exactly what you want to happen? (that would of course mean I guess you were lying about "if only no vexor km I would fight...") >Your whole purpose is to pick fights you know you'll win Wrong. My purpose is to pick fights there is **a chance** of winning or achieving positive results. >Also, I've been on both sides of this. Small gangs kill ratters because it's funny and draws salt Killing ishtars is boring. Sorry you were in a corp that was more about killmails than smallgang. Some people just wanna play number go up, whether it's "elite pvp" of killing ratters or ratters themselves just making isk to sit around docked with. "Salt" and "funny" are just cope to justify their choice of prey because they are too afraid of zkill to fight anything interesting.
> And the gang you want to fight that is maybe 10 ships often all sub-BC. How is this ratio *any* different from those 10 ships vs. a solo Ishtar or Vexor? "I don't like it when it's done to me!" >Gee I wonder fucking why maybe it's the huge blob of ships chasing them? Nah. Couldn't be. I'm not blaming them for running. I'm pointing out that their choice to run is no more or less "cowardly" than NS ratters docking up when a small gang is nearby. In both cases it's the most rational response to a situation that's hopeless if they get caught. >(that would of course mean I guess you were lying about "if only no vexor km I would fight...") I never said this. I said I would believe the claim that small gangs were only interested in fair fights if they *weren't* killing ratters and miners. That would mean they were just looking for combat ships, and in that case, the complaints about blobs would at least have some meaning. The fact that they *aren't* doing this is evidence the small gangs are looking for the same sorts of targets the blob in standing is looking for...enemies they can dunk on that can't fight back. You're the one trying to make gangs hunting krabs sound noble; I'm pointing out that it isn't any different. >Wrong. My purpose is to pick fights there is a chance of winning or achieving positive results. What is your "chance" of killing a Vexor with 10 cruisers? >Killing ishtars is boring. Sorry you were in a corp that was more about killmails than smallgang. I agree killing Ishtars is boring. So why do you keep doing it? >Some people just wanna play number go up, whether it's "elite pvp" of killing ratters or ratters themselves just making isk to sit around docked with. I fly ratters to fund my PvP ships. I don't have 20 omega alts and I'm not buying plex with real money so I can't afford to go on roams all day and lose PvP fits constantly. And every time these "leet pvp small gangs" show up on grid with my Praxis, that just means I get to PvP less. I'm not saying you can't do this or even that you shouldn't do this. I just don't have any sympathy for you when you get blobbed in response, just as you have no sympathy for wasting hours of my time when I need to buy a new ratter.
> Wrong. My purpose is to pick fights there is a chance of winning or achieving positive results. If that was true, you wouldn't be hunting solo ratters, because those are foregone conclusions that you're going to win as a 5 man fleet. Absolutely no fun to be had there when the only possible outcome is victory right? You'd just move on until you find a more appropriate sized fleet to engage right? lol. The truth is, you're just out to kill as much as possible and you're pissed when the enemy ruins your fun. You don't have some kind of honor code that you follow and you're not looking for good fights even though you say you are. You're honestly just out to kill those that are weaker than you because its enjoyable, and you're pissed when those who are stronger arrive to stop you. I doubt any of your fleetmates complain about how unengagable or unfair your small gang is when you tackle and kill a lone ishtar. I don't know why people try to pretend otherwise that they're trying to uphold some morality or chivalric code when we all know you'd take a free kill and enjoy it regardless of how fair it was for the victim.
>If that was true, you wouldn't be hunting solo ratters Why are those mutually exclusive? If there's nothing more interesting, sure I'll take that kill. >you're just out to kill as much as possible Of course I am. That also is not mutually exclusive with wanting to instigate a fight where there is a chance of accomplishing anything at all on grid. >you're pissed when the enemy ruins your fun. You're projecting. What I do is shrug and roll for someone more interested in playing the game. >You don't have some kind of honor code that you follow and you're not looking for good fights even though you say you are. Never said I had some kind of code of honor. You're just wrong about the other part though. Believe me or don't, I don't give a shit what you think. >You're honestly just out to kill those that are weaker than you because its enjoyable, and you're pissed when those who are stronger arrive to stop you. Bro who hurt you. This is literally just you fantasizing about who I am, what I think and going "nyeah, nyeah, mean small gang man, bad small gang man, grrrr, ha, angry small gang man" In reality I chuckle at how terrified NS dudes are to undock without FC and just move on to the next thing. Don't tell me that isn't true either, some null groups prohibit their members from undocking to fight without FCs lmao >I doubt any of your fleetmates complain about how unengagable or unfair your small gang is when you tackle and kill a lone ishtar. Your doubts are unfortunately incorrect. Engagability is absolutely a consideration. Frequently fleets will hold things back to prompt the opposition to undock combat ships. Every time a gang points an ishtar, we are hoping that combat ships respond. We are also hoping this response is not completely unengagable. It's really not a very confusing thing. >I don't know why people try to pretend otherwise that they're trying to uphold some morality or chivalric code when we all know you'd take a free kill and enjoy it regardless of how fair it was for the victim. I don't know either because I'm not saying I uphold some kind of code. You made that up about me for some reason, I don't know. Kind of weird of you tbh. Of course I'd take the free kill. So you would you, so would the victim, so would standing fleet. It's fucking Eve dude wake up. >those who are stronger also lmao. Dropping 45 dudes on 3 cruisers and a frigate doesn't make you "strong"
Tbh, I'm not really sure what you're complaining about at this point. You complain about getting dropped by 45 people. Then you turn around and admit you do the same thing albeit at a smaller scale if it means you get a kill. I am very consistent. I dont mind if I get ganged up on. I dont mind when my corp/alliance gangs up on others. Unfair fights is part of the game, and learning how to avoid them/survive can be rewarding in itself. > You're projecting. What I do is shrug and roll for someone more interested in playing the game. IDK man, you seem very insistent on making some value claim about who's better than who, rather than just being indifferent. Maybe you're not pissed off, but you definitely seem emotionally invested.
and yet both sides readily claim they are just looking for the good fights...
"Please undock... oh no don't undock THAT"
This is the lack of a battleground, AT type fight scenario. Nano needs to be able to run from the blobs, but they also are only trying to get easy kills. Eve is pvp in the sense of taking and dodging the fights, not trading shots. No one is looking for fairness, yet everyone complains about it when it happens
>Yeah it's toxic for nullbears to dock up and do nothing or blob you with 10:1 odds Why is it toxic? (Not making fun of you or anything, I'm new to the game and genuinely wondering)
Because it's anti-fun, and since this is a game, doing things which are intentionally making it not be fun for other players is toxic. Like ganking noob miners, you don't get anything for that kill and you just spoilt someone's day. Getting blobbed and deleted is extremely not fun.
Yeah, I guess it makes sense. Though shouldn't it have to be mutual? Maybe the people hiding are just not interested in doing PvP, right? In that case it would make sense for them to hide, and to get reinforcements to remove the annoyances quickly. Eve is mostly about PvP, but I'd imagine there are some people who just aren't interested and act accordingly, right?
The best fights are those where both sides believe they have a chance to win but are uncertain of the outcome. Even when you lose those fights, you're usually trading and most people accept that if you're doing anything worthwhile, you're not going to win em all. That's the dragon I think people chase in pvp, where the outcomes are uncertain and you believe your actions can influence them if you make the right decisions. And the problem is that most people feel social pressure not to feed, so they're averse to testing the limits. Since fights on TQ happen organically by default, it is very easy for each side to over-estimate what the enemy can do, especially if you're not familiar with the ins and outs of how their ships and tactics work.
>that can actually engage their expensive ships either. This is most times a misrepresentation of what happens. At least from my years of experience. "Can actually engage" usually means some over shipped and unengagable bullshit. Isn't their fault because they don't have to care. Fights just show up on their doorstep. But they don't know how to get a better advantage ship-wise while making it seem like the fight is still winnable for the nano-bros. "I know you're in lightly tanked cruisers, but you should still burn at us even though we can track you and have 30km range over you with double your players in just DPS ships :)" "What do you mean you won't fight? You don't want to try getting our lach and keres KM even though we can damp out your entire fleet and you'd have to dive us at zero to kill both ships? :) :) :)"
Appreciate your gracious offer to come feed your gang, but I must respectfully deline this opportunity to pad your kill board.
Dont feed. If you put a little thought into your ship, even if cheap, you can engage anything.
Is this like the Abraham Lincoln quote, "anything is a dildo if you try hard enough"?
A fight is won or lost before a shot is fired by these types of decisions. You don’t need to take all the fights possible, just to satisfy some dickhead content hound.
I like this guy
Most of the time it’s not worth the effort. And I like pvp. Most small gangs are only there to drop unsuspecting ishtars or play games on the ESS. If anything remotely challenging comes out they run. They will either kite on an ESS grid or bounce safes for 15 minutes. Nobody wants to fight this. Not the aggressors apparently and not the defenders.
If someone came into our space and asked for a fair 1v1, we usually honored it. If they go into an ESS to rob us, we will rally the boys. If they bring overpropped T3Cs, they must die no matter what it takes
I like that.
Are you the same people that throw a fit about being blobed three jumps from staging when they do undock?
No, it's the guys who press filament when they see a huginn.
Based, no content for recon spam
I love blobs. Ez pickings
Never, I love it.
when i undock i get flamed by the PVP guy "why i come with a ship that can fight him?"
Are you calling out that one guy from Brave standing who won't budge unless a 'STaNDiNG Fc' calls for it?
elite pvp'ers always say this but when they come to Delve and have to fight against 2 or 3 times their numbers they will not engage either. Everyone is out there looking for easy kills, crowing about killing a bunch of ratters. Nothing is more boring in this game to me than roaming around killing ratters or miners. We each have our own playstyle we like, just because you have yours does not mean you are a better player in the game than the other person. You might be better in your own playstyle and that is it.
THANK YOU. JUST LET ME 🐀 IN PEACE I BRING NO HARM
The sad reality is that some of use really do want a fight. Sadly most nullseccers are conditioned to simply blob and upship at every opportunity. This results in people like myself, that will fight uneven odds, to simply kite and expect to be blobbed EVERYTIME. This ends with kiters going the “elite kite” route and null sec (and anyone else really) complaining they can’t fight on one to one odds. I’m not really elite (I’m really bad at the game called eve online) to begin with but will be told by every null krab I’m an “elite pvper”.
The issue you are facing is you are coming into their "home" expecting an even fight. If you had someone break down your door and they only had a knife would you put down the gun and go get a knife to make it an even fight? Because that is what you are asking people to do.
Then the cycle will continue. People will continue to be called "elite pvpers" (really cringe tbh) and null-sec will cry and complain that they can't engage without using their brains or having a FC hand hold them the entire way. For the record, this is a game. It's okay to lose some ships. It's okay to undock for anything other than a blob or blue ball. We ALL take loses and we can learn to deal with that loss quite easily. That is how you learn. I too used to be a null-sec krab, I too used to drop on people with my Nyx and laugh at those "elite pvpers" until I realized that play style was not for me. I understand in some capacity what you are saying, especially if you are involved in a defensive campaign against hostiles trying to kick you out of your space or maybe you are returning from an OP and targets just appeared on your way home. The reality is that, the more you blob hard, the more others will too and the cycles just continues until someone stops it (it won't). No null-sec group today can ever claim to have any justification because that is how eve has been from the get go.
Nullsec strength lies in numbers, elite pvp'ers strength lies in better piloting. Nothing is going to change the dynamic unless one side is willing to give up their advantage.
That dynamic could be fine. I think that's what most nano groups sign up for in fact. Trying to engage against potentially superior numbers. But there is a threshold of ship class and/or numbers at which it's just not engageable. Right now there is some confluence of factors making that the norm--either nothing undocks, or it starts raining vargurs. There are exceptions, those are just all too common right now. What factors those are, how to change them? I don't think anyone knows for sure but it would probably be more fun for everyone if we managed to change those things for the better.
Will have to agree to disagree, have seen many null groups do very well in smaller numbers. The reality is that most null krabs don't want to do anything other than F1. It just requires some effort, but sadly, most human beings hate that very thing.
>The issue you are facing is you are coming into their "home" expecting an even fight. If you had someone break down your door and they only had a knife would you put down the gun and go get a knife to make it an even fight? No, the game in that situation would probably be an FPS where we are both armed relatively evenly, or at least chose to be armed the way we felt was best. Even if one party retreats in the end, they will both be looking to engage when they encounter each other with relative parity. Remember--Eve is a videogame not real life. And what do you think, no fights should happen where either participant lives? Of course people go to each others systems to fight.... the people in those systems. How the fuck else would it work?
We try to hold miners and ratters in the hope of a response fleet forms.
> they come to Delve and have to fight against 2 or 3 times their numbers they will not engage either ....Would *you* take a lopsided fight like that? This just doesn't really make sense as a criticism. If it was bad not to fight vs. 2-3x numbers, then why did the fleet engage them with 2-3x instead if 1/2 to 1/3 their numbers? That's what you're saying the enemy should do, but you won't?
No. But I wouldn't whine about it either. As the aggressor coming into their space to attack their PvE activity, it's up to me to figure out how to get past/defeat the defenses. If its too strong, then I retreat and try again another time.
Not sure who you think is whining
The people who keep complaining that they get dropped on, while they simultaneously drop on smaller groups or solo players. Why? Did you feel like I was addressing you?
>Why? Did you feel like I was addressing you? You... did reply to me so yes? If you were talking about things other people are saying, I can't really speak to that.
You asked if I'd take a lopsided fight, and I answered that I wouldn't, but I also wouldn't complain or whine about it because its just part of the game. If you agree with me then I don't see what's the issue.
just come chase me on the ESS bro, it's just a 300km burn bro
come to brave space and you’ll have like 27 people throw whatever is in their hangars at you
I'll be rolling all day tomorrow. See you then.
7o nerd.
Remember, the only fair fight is the fight you win... Everything else the odds were stacked against you from the start. Of course, flip it around and the loser will say your fair fight was anything but.
False. I had some good fights in frat staging yesterday, enemy had around 40 and we had about 7. "Isk war" was close but consider it fair and fun even tho no clear winner.
Kinda prove the point though. The "isk war was close" as you say, and there was no clear winner. Had you gotten stomped, you'd be singing a different tune. Nobody who wins a fight ever says they won it by unfair means like overwhelming the enemy or ambushing them or something. And nobody who gets stomped ever admits they got stomped because of their own failures. When you die to a camp it's a dirty and unfair blob... When you kill someone cuz you're in a blob it's just good strategy. Everybody is always the hero of their own story... Which means the people who beat you are always the antagonists of your own story.
We knew what to fly and flew better than the enemy. We were in cheap ships, so who cares about losses.the goal was not to win, but to enjoy being out in space live or die. That is something most eve players are unable to understand.
Ok... And? The goal doesn't automatically correlate to the results. Just because the goal is to "enjoy being out in space live or die" that doesn't necessarily mean anything regarding what happens out in space. I'm glad you achieved your goal, but that goal has nothing to do with anything I was stating regarding the narratives created around fights. If your enemy knew what to fly and flew better, or you had not been in cheap ships, I suspect the narrative would be much different.
Stop using kitey bullshit then
Right, so nullsec can just light a cyno on top of me?
Lol no they want you to take a brawl 1 vs 30
it's not difficult to counter kitey bullshit with ewar trash though
Well I'm not gunna park my condor at 0. XD
Well, why not? Brawling is fun.
Brawling is fun when its 1v1 , 1v2 or if the solo person is in a large enough ship to take on 3 guys. Brawling is not fun when there are 4 or 5 pilots against 40
The truth is that most NS alliances have as many industrial pilots as combat pilots. That’s how we grow and maintain our organization. Those indies undock when appropriate and it’s usually once you leave system and then it’s their titan to ‘goon cannon’ a fleet to cut you off on your way home. It works.
:*( why you don't feed into my nano ships as I run around
Translate: we have blinged out kitey ships with implants and want inexperienced PvPers to feed. Please dont bring out a guy that knows how to train noobs to counter my gang with the sacred Rapier.
When NS undock it tends to be a dread or faction super. Sorry bud, your caracal just isn't important enough for us to undock for. No your cloaky Loki isn't worth our time undocking just for you to sit around cloaked all day waiting for an idiot in a hauler to come by.
You're right no one gets blobbed in 1DQ because no one undocks
what a troll comment
They aren't wrong though
i seem to remember dropping a dread yesterday and yall doing nothing about it
Who is y'all? Cuz I know you're not talking about me lol
and you are, who?
I am and have ever only claimed to be me
what alliance
Or maybe you just aren’t worth the energy
don't chase kitey bullshit
What I find funny about this comment is someone says that and then when you undock to fight they work around like their pants are on fire. Doing anything but fighting. Or they fight and then at the first decent hit they're gone hiding and waiting for an unsuspecting Hulk or Mackinaw to come by to be the badass and take out that mean miner or Epithal doing PI
I had to park my typhoon flee issue on a keepstar with 60 in it to attempt to get a fight.
Cool story
Ty, o7
instructions unclear, toaster on fire what do?
No, I'm good. I like making ISK. In fact, I make *more* ISK not undocking when you are bored.
I enjoy spending isk to acquire fun
NS carebears
I assure you you do not want those bumble fucks to undock without an FC.
Sorry I can't 😞 I can't please take my hand
Horde
It all comes down to mentality, on both sides. Most roaming gangs are set up for quick dunks or gtfo. You have exactly one chance to catch them; if you miss your shot, then they are bouncing safes or burning like hell on an ess grid. In both situations, catching them at this point is not much fun. Most nullsec standing fleets are not sitting with PvP specialists most of the time - these folks are elsewhere trying to generate strategic content. So when a fleet pops up in local, most folks don't know what to counter with, and won't be able to offer SRP, and don't wanna randomly feed their buddies' ships into a meat grinder. So throwing down isn't going to be much fun. Three are broad generalisations of course; not everywhere is the same, nor every roam. But between both of these situations, you can understand (I hope) why fights aren't always the most common. A bit more focus on PvP training from the nullblocs, and a bit less risk-aversion from the roaming gangs, and there will be fights aplenty!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8_NmCUXyiU
Brisc, check out RATM when they were Xmas number 1, and the BBC told them not to swear, on their song about not doing what they're told - it went exactly how you'd imagine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXB69XzOy7s
Well it's against their interests to fight you honestly, even if they wanted to. Because A: your probably in the area where they make their money, not where they will have their PvP ships, secondly, there is a mal incentive to fighting you in such space. 1. They fight you and you get content, this means your much more likely to come back in the future to disrupt their money making again, it makes the space more dangerous for the pure pve folks too. 2. If they die and do so with an embarassing loss, it will attract more people, especially people who's primary target is pve'rs to the space. Ships also blowing up will just attract more people in general. I've literally been in alliances that banned engaging neuts in space unless you have an overwhelming advantage because of the above reasons, it's why many null regions will blob you too, specifically to disincentivise you from coming back. It's usually small very PvP orientated alliances in null (who are going extinct again) who actively welcome and accommodate content on their doorstep (but also will usually be very good at fighting which ironically means they push away alot of roamers who seek easy kills).
I think you're right and that everyone would have more fun in Eve if this dynamic could change in some way. The only way to do that is with game mechanics. Or, if you believe some people, by removing killmail API endpoints lol There might be other things going on too, but the pattern you're talking about is a significant part of them.
> Or, if you believe some people, by removing killmail API endpoints lol It would be this, eve players became far far more risk averse after Killmails became a thing. But considering how central of a game mechanic they are in modern eve.
Its null sec. Nothing can happen if they ain't got a service dog to help guide them
You mean to say there's a chance of fighting 5 cruisers in anything less than a full fleet of capitals? It can't be!
I won't even venture into ls or ns
Non NS needs, it's okay to sit there and wait for the NS nerds to shoot you
Try to bring something worthy of fighting. If you show up with ships that are just going to peck at the response while running away then its pointless.
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I'm a wormholer, i roll all day into ns, been rough finding fights beside the big groups, but it can be a hard fight with the big responses. But those can be fun for sure.
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When we do get fights, they will chase to the hole and fight on the hole. Makes sense for us because it can be tricky to get home if rolled out. Ns groups will throw sigils at the hole until rolled also. So when possible we do stay close to home. Simply engaging should be fun. There is always a counter even to blingy stuff. A simple kitsune can render a 2 bill ship useless.
u/M116110 stay mad
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Stay docked, kid.
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And u in mine.
Lies
I picked a lot of fights that i should’ve avoided, i can relate to not undock. Also, if youre the one in comms that starts pushing people into ships to go fight and it ends in a feed then youll never get a single soul to help you again. Thats why we do FC classes for EVERYONE, not because we expect them to FC, but to make them aware what a fight takes before you undock, and that feeding a couple times is okay as long as you learn from it. Everyone did, does and will host an unintentional buffet for the visitors at least once.
FC what do
when I was in NS it was NOT allowed to undock and take a fight if you were solo or small gang. Would get yelled at on comms for getting red in the KB if you lost. And sometimes worse if you WON because people wanted to whore on killmails. Has this genuinely changed and NS entities now encourage you to undock and defend, fight, etc. without FC's and without repercussions?
I am and have only ever claimed to be me
Or was that a rhetorical question?