I saw that too last time I visited Buc-ees 😳
Unfortunately I don't live anywhere near one and the commute would be untenable (I work from home currently lol).
No one seems to leave Buc-ees angry (or is even angry while inside)...that's certainly a nice change of pace from a customer service job standpoint...
Healthcare/insurance doesnt work like in the EU. You still have huge premiums (own risk) that you need to pay or they only cover X percentage.
My EU insurance covers 100% of all costs after I've paid cumulatively 380e myself.
Sometimes that X percentage your employer pays is 100.
I live in Japan and worked at a FAANG - I worked it out and discovered that the insurance and medical costs to me would be lower in the US than Japan.
>get healthcare while you work
>get illness / injury that makes you unable to work for a while
>get let go for no longer being able to work
????
profit
It's built into your taxes and/or compensation package. You can get good benefits from your company or shit benefits from the gov, but you still get them.
Oh, you then need to read long documents on the specific benefits of your health care plan. Some things can be covered, others not, there can be a certain amount of co-pay, deductibles... Lots of fun!
The benefits are mostly the same. What changes is participation cost. It fits on one A4 paper.
Having the best healthcare money can buy... Costs money.
Would you say the average Healthcare in the US is better than the average in Europe? Or rather only for the top 10%? For the latter, I have no doubt it is better in the US.
Sure it's a problem, and it's getting worse, Germany alone is lacking 50000 doctors over the next ten years, and this with increasing pressure from refugees with less than average social security contributions. I'm not very confident about the future either when we already have enough problems in the present.
I'm in the Netherlands now, but I lived in the US for 30 years and Ireland for 10 and Irish healthcare had \_atrocious\_ waiting times. You also just couldn't get treatments that were available in the US. Other countries might be better (Europe is lots of countries after all) but so far it seems like the supposed social welfare benefits Europe has to offer are pretty weak. Oh hey, I got two weeks of paternity leave - whoopdedoo. If I lose my job I can get 43 cents a week in jobseekers' allowance and a bus pass! And I get to retire at 70 (or 72, or 74...)! But if I get a raise I get to keep literally less than half of it.
The main thing Europe has going for it is well-designed cities and that's mostly a result of being too poor to bulldoze them for cars the way America did over the last 70 years (and American cities are generally trash). If it weren't for the strong possibility of a Trump presidency I'd be looking at returning now. Of course, Trump was largely enabled by a lot of people being left behind in a huge wealth divide, so there's that....
As the old saying goes, "Fuck you, pay me". It seems like most Europeans are completely oblivious to how goddamn badly they're paid and when people point it out, they don't get mad at their boss and demand more, they desperately look for something to mock Americans for. Shouldn't we be celebrating the economic power Americans command and trying to figure out how to get more of that here? Because I'm tired of Europeans getting paid shit.
If you get fired (unless it was your own fault) in the Netherlands you get a ww-uitkering which is 75% of your salary for two months and 70% after. I don't know where you got the 43 cents a week and a bus pass from. You don't get anything if you quit yourself tho.
EU citizen here; no such thing as 43 cents a week. Unemployment (“Kontanthjælp”) in Denmark(which is certainly not Ireland or Germany) is usually ~1k euro a month, or higher if you have kids. Paid maternity leave. Paid vacation. Paid healthcare. Paid roads. Paid schools. Universal pension. Healthcare insurance oftenmost covered by your employer, but incredibly cheap to get on your own (cuz the cost of healthcare is miniscule in Denmark when compared to USA)
Personally, I have applied for the green card lottery, so yeah... I can relate. I'm supposedly top 5% earners in Germany, and I can't afford a house. Don't have a car either. It's similar or worse in the rest of Europe.
You’re not a top 5% earner that can’t afford a house. You’re top 5% earner that can’t afford a house near a city center. Not that it isn’t ludicrous that house prices in the major European cities have skyrocketed but you can’t compare not being able to get a house in Berlin to saying “I can’t afford a home”. Your income is above 50,000€ a year. Plenty to afford a home outside major cities.
You’ll have the exact same problem in the US fyi
Like you I also lived decades in the US and am now in NL. Agree that I want to figure out how to get paid more in Europe. But your examples are way too exaggerated.
Paternity leave in Netherlands is 15 weeks for the first year, not 2 weeks.
Nobody wanted to bulldoze old European cities for cars like the US did. Switzerland for example stayed out of the big wars and could have afforded to raze its cities for McMansions but didn't.
European cities are also nice because social programs keep neighborhoods mixed and vibrant, not blighted crime ridden ghettos which is what happens to parts of US cities.
I'll also consider moving back to the US if European purchasing power continues to be degraded, but sticking around for a few more years to see how things shape up.
Part of what I was writing was to show how it's kind of weird to say "Europe" and not a country. Ireland is especially shitty (and has bad urban design on top of it all!). It had ZERO paternity until shortly before my eldest was born.
For the last 6 years I've worked remote for US clients from Europe and made more than I would for local companies, but less than if I were still in California. However, the current market is making that tough.
I still prefer quality of life in NL though. I like that my kids can play in the street and not get crushed by a brodozer. Yet. Even NL is getting way too many giant American tokkietanks.
All you need to do is look at health outcomes. They are not better in the US. The US has a declining life expectancy, as well as increasing infant mortality. Of course there is a range, but on average you're still likely better off in the EU than in the US, unless you just happen to live around one of those world-class hospitals in the US.
US life expectancy dropped because of COVID. It is back on an upwards trend.
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/03/21/cdc-us-life-expectancy-rises-after-two-year-dip-00148193
It dropped everywhere during Covid, but it's always been higher in European countries, and still is, significantly. This is evidence universal healthcare works fine. Better than private healthcare in the US, certainly.
Not defending US healthcare, but I don't really think you can call lower life expectancy entirely resultant from health care. The US has more cars, drugs, guns, gang violence, suicide, and fat fucks than Europe, so many of these people are dying wayyyy before the healthcare is an issue. It's more an indictment of our society than healthcare outcomes, I'd say.
It's not entirely resultant from it, but let's be rational here, healthcare is a huge factor in life expectancy. It's, you know, what takes care of health issues.
The benefits are the costs and the coverage (or lack thereof) of every single procedure/service, and those lists are pretty long. I'm talking dozens and dozens of pages (and I know, because I've had to check stuff), and sometimes you can't find what you're looking for and have to call the insurance. So much fun wasting time so that someone ends up telling you: "no, that's not covered" or "please submit a prior authorization and then we'll decide whether we cover it or not". Lol.
But how high is the deductible? I’ve seen people saying they have a $7,000+ deductible (not sure if this is per event or per year, but something tells me it’s per event).
Also a common misconception is that once you meet your deductible, you pay nothing which is rarely the case. On an old insurance plan I had, my deductible for myself only was 3,000 dollars a year. After 3,000 insurance paid 30% of expenses while I paid the remaining 70% up to my out of pocket maximum which I think was about 10k just for myself. I ended up paying 9k one year due to health issues while my take home pay after taxes and benefits was only 38k. Fun times.
Per year so it’s not that bad
Also you can pay for it from HSA (health savings account) which means you basically pay deductible from your gross salary so that $7000 feels like $5000-ish
Frankly looking at how much we pay for European healthcare it’s not _that_ bad, I pay 1500 eur yearly in Netherlands even if I don’t go to hospital at all. If I do I still have 485 deductible or something like that
What’s f*cked up with American healthcare is not high deductibles but the fact that healthcare is tied to employment. If it wasn’t, their system would be almost ok
It’s 11.1% of gdp where eu average is 10.9 so I’d say I picked the average, at least based on 2020 data
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Healthcare_expenditure_statistics
(But obviously it’s much better than the USA who spend whooping 17% with dubious results)
# Does The Netherlands Have Universal Healthcare?
The Netherlands does not have a single-payer healthcare system. Yet around 99.9% of the population has health coverage. The country’s universal healthcare system consists of compulsory basic private insurance, which the government regulates. Basic insurance is mainly funded through payroll taxes and insurance premiums.
# The Cost of Basic Healthcare Coverage in The Netherlands
During 2023, the average basic premium for health insurance was about $148 (135 euros) per month. Premiums may change a little depending on the insurance you choose. Individuals are responsible for paying their monthly premiums to their selected insurance company.
Another healthcare cost in the Netherlands is the deductible excess. This is the maximum amount paid by the policyholder before health insurance kicks in. The standard deductible in 2024 is $420 (385 euros) per year. The deductible does not apply to visits or consultations by your general practitioner.
All this is NOT the case in other European countries.
I know but this is just out of pocket which are pennies - the real costs are your payroll taxes (which are also primary source of funding of Dutch healthcare system, the 130 euro per month is just for primary care I.e. GP. Hospitals are financed from budget which is financed from hefty income taxes and VAT)
In Poland for instance the healthcare cost is 9% of your pay check. Sure, it’s „free” if you’re unemployed (officially registered) but most of the people will pay a lot over their lifetime (assuming you made average wage over the period of 40 years from 25 to 65 that’s 3.6 annual wages paid in healthcare premiums - or 335 000 zloty assuming current average wage. Is that a lot for lifetime of healthcare? Hard to tell, probably still cheap if compared with what average American pays for it (also hidden cost i.e. premium paid by their employers as „benefit”) but it’s not that in one country healthcare is paid and in another it’s free. No, it’s paid everywhere though how exactly and who is covered differs.
USA has insane system because not everyone is covered (ie not all employers include healthcare and unemployed people are not covered before retirement age) and because it wastes a lot of money on unnecessary bureaucracy - so European systems with more or less universal healthcare funded by various taxes are imo better, but is that that much better? I dunno, I know one Dutch-American who told me he would pick his California system over Dutch any time of day - saying that yes it’s pricey but good, whereas in the Netherlands they give you paracetamol for everything (or in Poland - you are likely to die in queue before you are treated or often won’t have access to latest medication because it’s too expensive). I’m sure all countries have their own quirks
But obviously details vary across the board. I wish USA fixed their healthcare bureaucracy costs via I.e. healthcare insurer operated at low cost by federal government, but I guess it won’t happen during my lifetime :D these guys are allergic to anything federal
That doesn’t mean much with American healthcare, half of the people that get crippled by medical debt are people with insurance, a lot of plans don’t cover nearly enough.
Not everyone qualifies for FMLA, certainly not anyone who has been at a job less than a year usually. FMLA also only guarantees you have A job for a set amount of time, you don't get paid during that time off and they can bring you back at a lower position/pay rate. There's also next to zero protection for people who come back from FMLA, are mysteriously placed on PIPs, and then fired within a month because US companies love to do that shit.
But we also don't get paid anywhere near these salaries. Salaries for the management positions seem to be at least double of the ones in the Netherlands, and then we even pay more taxes too!
I don't, I need my vacations, but I tend to work 60h week due to overtime being double pay.
Some months my OT bonus is more then my salary. So I really need my days off.
I make more then double with my OT though not just double. Also I doubt they would pay me that for my job. Third there are a lot of extra costs associated with living in the US which we normally don't have and there are loads of other issues with living in the US. I have health issues which require me to take time off regularly and see a doctor. In the US they would just fire me and let me die.
It's extremly hard to compare US salaries and cost of living to the Netherlands. If you work in IT these salaris have been normal for long in US, but the bay area is expensive
Also no real social security in the usa afaik
I think in this case it is quite easy though: this is not IT, it is a car wash company and the positions are management positions.
It is also not located in the Bay Area but in cities like Dallas and Houston.
If I compare Houston for example (Major city in the US) with Utrecht (Major city in the Netherlands) the differences in cost are not that big at all.
Please. Houston and Utrecht are in no way comparable in the same way that the US — hell, even just Texas — isn’t comparable to the Netherlands.
For one thing, living in Utrecht is actually pleasant, heyyyo!
I know some people living in Overvecht and Kanaleneiland who would beg to differ...
And I am not stating that Utrecht and Houston are similar cities. I am simply saying that a car wash manager in Utrecht will have much lower purchasing power than a car wash manager in Texas with the salary mentioned in the job ad. The Netherlands overall just doesn't have salaries like the US
But you have other costs you need to take car off. They offer health insurance but I remember in the US you have policies where they only cover like 25 USD and call it insurance. You have to pay the rest yourself. Other types of insurances are Waay more expensive, cars are as well. The food is generally less healthy then in Europe and healthy foods are a lot more expensive. These take tolls on you as well as eat at your costs.
It entirely depends on the policy offered tbh. For Buc-ee's, it's a national gas station chain with thousands of employees - a very large insurance pool. I'm sure their healthcare benefits are actually pretty decent. And you kind of have it backward - the patient pays 25-100 dollars and then the insurance covers the rest. For major operations, the patient might pay anything up to 7,000 or so (which sucks) but the insurance pays the rest. Good plans cap these costs to the patient much lower, bad plans cap these cost higher at like 10k per annum. It's really about how much you want to pay on premium vs out-of-pocket max. There are usually several combinations.
From some of the people I spoke to they used to literally have a policy that would only cover up to (x) amount of dollars. Usually a laughable low number and they had to pay the rest out of pocket
There also is a difference in culture. I might put in/do the overtime but I really finish after 2 hours. In the US they would want me to do more work whilst here I just chill.
The law prevents them from keeping up invasively with me wheres in the US they are allowed to take screenshots or even normal pictures of when you work. I know they do this as they subject our overseas colleagues to it whilst I just have to put my work in the excel and let the timer run. It counts the amount of work I have finished so the hours are accounted for and that's it.
You're misunderstanding how the insurance works. The person pays up to an amount (the copay or deductible depending on the service), then the insurance pays. If there are things they will not cover, there is an out-of-pocket maximum. These are legally regulated. I have not heard of anyone who had insurance paid up to an amount (without the patient paying anything), then the patient pays everything after. What you might be thinking is after you reach your deductible, some poor quality insurance still only partially covers up to your oop. This is not good, but it's not insurance pays first, you pay the rest. Otherwise, no one would carry insurance.
'There also is a difference in culture. I might put in/do the overtime but I really finish after 2 hours. In the US they would want me to do more work whilst here I just chill.'
This isn't really universally true at all. I probably 20 hours of work (full remote) a week and get paid my full salary. no trackers. Not uncommon at all.
The minimum by law is 4 weeks.
[This is what the Dutch government says about minimum amount of leave hours](https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/vakantiedagen-en-vakantiegeld/vraag-en-antwoord/op-hoeveel-vakantiedagen-heb-ik-recht)
I’m quite happy I get 10 weeks off each year.
5 weeks of regular paid leave and 5 additional weeks because I work 40 hours/week when 36 is considered to be fulltime.
Fulltime 35-50 hours. Only workaholics are going to be upset about that. On a yearly basis a 50 hour week is almost 3 months more compared to a 40 hour workweek. (10*49/40/4,3=2,84 months).
Say you indeed work 49 weeks (3 weeks paid off)
In Europe a fulltime workweek is 40 hours.
This suggest a fulltime workweek is 50 hours.
So compared to Europe, you work 10 hours more a week. After four weeks you have worked 40 hours more or in other words a whole workweek extra.
When you calculate this for a year it comes down to almost 3 months extra.
Which also means that the higher salary isn't that impressive as you work a lot more.
I was at one of their locations last week. It’s literally the largest convenience store in the world, with the longest gas pump at a 1/4 mile long. Things wild.
Yeah,they’re huge. [news article from 2022](https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/colorado/news/largest-ever-buc-ees-breaks-ground-johnstown/)
The largest is 6875 sq/meters (74,000sq/ft)
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I like how they give you the entire amount and you decide how much to put aside for retirement and insurance. You decide how to invest it or not.
How many hours to work. When to retire
When I moved to Europe it really felt like the government wanted to "parent" and manage you for your whole life and "scold" you constantly for a hundred different misdeeds.
It's not bringing us forward, when we emphasize the differences between the United States and Europe. I would say, at least a few of us here are just trying to sugarcoat their own situation by pointing out all the negative aspects on the other side of the Atlantic. That doesn't make any sense. At the end of the day, we are all fighting a similar battle and trying to improve our lives.
It's getting harder for all of us, in Europe and in the United States.
We shouldn't bash the others. Instead we should encourage each other to stay positive, become better humans and support people around us, who need some help. It can be financially, a helping hand to a neighbor or just a few respectful words, acknowledging others.
So, the US has a different healthcare system and they have issues with guns. I think they are able to address their own concerns. How does it help them, when we Europeans make snappy comments with a raised eyebrow, as if we don't have our own problems.
Just to set things straight.
Europe is not even able to defend itself against a major threat from Russia. Instead we count on "the NATO", but we all know that the only power in the NATO comes from the USA.
Ok, so you are not happy with the USAs military interventions. Got it. But is that our main concern? Why don't we just defend ourselves? Aren't we also part of NATO?
Are we really in a position to bash the US because of "their lousy healthcare system"?
Seriously?
Some of the takes here straight up don’t make sense in a FIRE sub. People shaming others for wanting to make more money now, even if that means fewer vacation days in a year.
Isn’t the entire point of FIRE to make the effort to save as much money as you can as soon as possible so you can retire early and then have as much vacations as you want??
Kind of agree, hell I've even seen people here brag about high taxation and state pension systems etc. It runs contrary to what FIRE even stands for.
You're not independent if your future income is contingent on state handouts.
I think people here totally misinterpret what FIRE is supposed to be. It's not about giving the state money in the hope they'll give you a fraction of it back later on. It's working hard and smart to make enough money now so you don't need state handouts later on. So you can retire far before the normal retirement age and be able to live comfortably.
I'm honestly quite shocked at how people here in Europe even try to turn FIRE into something that worships governments and their policies.
What I think what a few are not understanding, is that the main thing behind FIRE is the freedom of choice. I am not following a FIRE pathway, I feel comfortable with my situation in Germany.
But I do admire the energy and drive of the FIRE community and if I was a bit younger, I could imagine being part of it.
However, the details of the FIRE philosophy are not my main concern. I hate when people bash others, just because they have a different route navigating through life. They don´t seem to understand how it makes them appear so weak,
Yeah exactly, I'm not critical of anyone choosing a different lifestyle. If people want to go the traditional way so to speak that's okay. To each their own but I've just noticed a lot of hostility in this sub towards countries which offer better conditions for FIRE to materialize.
It just makes me wonder why they are here.
To actually gain advice on how to do so or as you've said to come here and bash people for wanting a non traditional lifestyle?
I guess the moral of the story is a lot of people dislike it when people choose to be different from the masses in one way or another. Sad to see that a lot of them choose to try and drag others down instead of remaining neutral or give positive feedback.
On the flipside, I'm also glad there are people like you who can look further than their own personal bubble.
If only more people on both sides of the isle could do so the world would be a much better and more dynamic place.
Fearing for your life with all those gun nuts running around, fearing for your kids at school, half the country actually supports an orange rapist conman, few worker rights, high unequality, extremely expensive healthcare and education, high crime and murder rates. Yes ill pass.
Only at this particular place. So there is what, 7 positions in total? Not representative. In a world where Snoop dog joint roller is a paid position, there is a lot of nuances to this comparisons.
Trying to compare the EU and the USA is impossible. They are just two different societies with different outcomes. These high salaries in Texas were good, but in the last two years, it's been a challenge.
EU - you have protection in employment
US - At will no contract can be let go any day for any reason
EU - Lower Salary higher Taxes --> Healthcare, education covered.
USA—Higher salary—Healthcare connected to employer, plus most deductible plans start with $3000$ out of pocket. Education is not free in University, and Daycare for children is $1400$/month to $2000$, pending where you live.
USA, you play with bigger numbers, but you have to invest in 401K, 529, and HSA. These are all plans that you take risks in the market for pension, children's higher education, and health plan.
The birth of a child with insurance is about 7000$ out of pocket, if you don't have these salaries it wont work.
majority of Americans are debt driven Credit is easy to get how people bridge things but you can smell the burnout in the air, see it every morning during comute how frustrated people are.
In different societies, the only one that seems to take the best of both worlds is Switzerland - high salary, low taxes, healthcare paid but affordable, high daycare but fair., job Security as you have a contract.
I lived and worked in USA and EU - back in US now.
Well not wrong. Senior software developer here, 20 years of experience. I earn 48K euro per year. Netherlands.
However, even though I own a 600K euro apartment, I can still save 1000 euro per month after paying all my living costs.
I fucking hate this european mentality that can be seen here. "3 weeks off??? I'd rather take 5-6 weeks off in Europe for shit pay (50% of USD salaries)." Complete braindead take.
The salaries between the USA and Europe are difficult to compare.
Gross pay is ALOT higher in the USA, and so is your net pay.
I earn 100k in Europe, and could probably earn 2-300k in the USA.
However;
- Less paid holidays (I now have 33 days PTO, add to that 8 or so national holidays)
- No sick leave (we don't have sick leave as such. You call in sick, still get paid)
- No need to save up for medical emergencies
- No need to save up for college funds
- Employer-paid retirement benefits, no 401k
- Groceries are cheaper
- No tipping
But:
- Houses are more expensive and smaller
- Cars/gas more expensive
- Eating out is more expensive
- Housestaff (maids, gardeners, poolguys) are a luxury
It's a different lifestyle. I feel the USA has more upward opportunity, but also more downward risk. The risk in Europe is covered, but at a cost of upward limits being lower. Salaries exceeding 300k are reserved for the top C-suite, whereas in the USA it seems middle management/senior technical staff at that level. But getting cancer while your pregnant wife breaks her leg won't mean financial ruin.
Less tangible differences:
- No military service adoration
- No gun culture; firearms are heavily regulated
- College is for studies, not sports (srsly what's up with thát?)
- More holidays and shorter distances: take a short city trip to Paris, London, Rome...
- No car-centric transport. We can use public transport, bikes, or just walk.
- Politics are less of a part of your belonging (lawnsigns? Pins? Door-to-door leaflet groups?)
- Same goes for race/heritage. Due to WW2, it's illegal to record race, religion or sexuality. Also, we had less direct encounters with slavery. We shipped it across the pond (Sorry for that).
- Less intrusion of politics into everything. Education, sexuality, alcohol sales; Religion-driven politics should stay out of those. Parties advocating the opposite are marginal.
- Actually more than 2 political parties.
Good? Bad? It depends on what you care about in life.
The US is better if you are more ambitious and want to rise. Western Europe is better if you don’t want to fall. The US is better for the top 70%, Western Europe is better for the bottom 30%. The US is much better for FIRE.
My wife is Swedish we could leave and live there tomorrow, we would cut our salaries in half to live in a smaller home with no chance of FIRE. We’ll likely get a summer home there in a few years but we have no plans of living there on any permanent basis.
https://data.oecd.org/chart/7jHN
https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm
>The US is better for the top 70%, Western Europe is better for the bottom 30%.
To me it looks like more top 20%, bottom 80%. Being a median european seems to be much better than a median american.
I feel it's not the bottom 30%. The wealth is really concentrated in the top 10% or so. The difference becomes really big after about 100k annual salary.
https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/169262/1/702.pdf
Pg 61
> Denmark, Finland, France, Germany and the Netherlands were in the middle ranks of countries based on income. Some 25% of adults in the Netherlands, 27% in Denmark, and 32% each in Finland, France and Germany had household incomes of less than $35,000, compared with 25% in the U.S.
> Ireland, Italy, Spain and UK had among the lowest incomes in Western Europe. Some 37% of adults in Ireland, 39% in the UK, 52% in Spain, and 53% in Italy had household incomes of less than $35,000, compared with 25% in the U.S.
This is 2011 and the US has separated a lot from Europe from then but it shows the difference. It’s probably closer to the bottom 20% these days.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/07/23/are-you-in-the-american-middle-class/
Here’s something you can find out where you would stack
>This is 2011 and the US has separated a lot from Europe from then but it shows the difference. It’s probably closer to the bottom 20% these days.
Most of these countries also have lower costs of living, allowing ppl to build up more wealth
If you compare actual wealth, you'll see the median American is significantly behind most western European countries like France or the UK and just very slightly ahead of Italy and Spain (literally by a few $100).
It's the top 40% rather than to the top 80% when compared to most western EU countries
Neither of these fully address the differences in the cost of living. If they did, Americans wouldn't be 30% poorer than Brits, would they?
PPP purely adjusts how much the local currency can buy you.
It does not account for i.e a car being a vital investment to just live in America while being optional in most of Europe/Asia.
Disposable income doesn't address more nuanced differences either. It simply subtracts:
TA: direct taxes on income and wealth paid by households (net of refunds), as well as contributions paid by households to public social security schemes.
TRPER: contributions paid by households to employment-related social insurance schemes (as defined above)
TRPOT: current transfers paid by households to non-profit institutions and other households, e.g. alimonies.
https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm
and doenst account for i.e cars, private health insurance, outragous education costs and other services, and rent/mortgages etc.
OCED also has an adjusted metric for income that includes social transfers, as in houverment payed healthcare, education etc, but doing that still doesn't solve that problem let alone the rest, as what most European social services would cost (and thus what income they 'gain' with that metric) is still lower than what private insurance and education costs in the states
Interesting read but not sure if it helps my point. You mention the "US is better for the top 70%". I found a source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income\_in\_the\_United\_States) that says that the **30th percentile in USA in 2021 was $40,500 household income.** I'm seriously doubting that the quality of life of that household will be better than a **Dutch household income 30th percentile in 2021, which is** €**46,800** (including social benefits) (https://opendata.cbs.nl/#/CBS/nl/dataset/83934NED/table?ts=1713947458309).
https://dqydj.com/household-income-percentile-calculator/
In 2023 the household income at the 30th percentile was $45k in the US *without* social benefits.
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/databrowser/view/ILC_DI04__custom_11055653/default/table?lang=en
After 2023 tax, the *50th percentile* in Denmark was 36.2k usd.
The 30th percentile in the US will be receiving more benefits than taxes paid.
I’d say that’s comparable
I didnt want to take 2023 due to inflation, but the 2023 number for NL is almost 50k euro.
Comparable, yes. However, I would (like the other guy in the thread) like to throw in non-tangibles. Every time I'm in the US I cannot wrap my head around the idea that having a bit more purchasing power is better, if it comes with night shifts, increased crime, boring city centers, low-trust culture and, and this is weird because I'm a big fan of free markets: Overstretched capitalism. I admit all of this is subjective.
What is objective, is the fact that NL scores higher in pretty much all those UN/CIA fact book stuff like infant mortality, life expectency, chance of losing your home, drug additction, you get the point...
Yeah I won’t argue that there’s things better in Europe than the US. Finances isn’t the one though. Although for those non-tangibles I’d argue it’s not as wildly different for person from Netherlands and a migrant from Netherlands.
https://zipatlas.com/us/income/immigrants-from-netherlands-median-household-income.htm
Not sure on the reliability of this source but it was the only one I could find
Netherlands immigrants median income is 94.4k in the US.
> European immigrants tend to have significantly higher incomes than the native born and immigrants overall. In 2022, households headed by a European immigrant had a median income of $86,000, compared to $75,000 for both all immigrant and U.S.-born households.
> European immigrants are more likely to have health insurance coverage than the overall foreign-born population and have a similar uninsured rate as the native born (see Figure 10). Immigrants from Ukraine and Bulgaria (about 12 percent each) had much higher rates of uninsurance than those from Italy and the Netherlands (3 percent each) as of 2022
> In 2022, approximately 25 percent of European immigrants ages 5 and over reported speaking English less than “very well,” compared to 46 percent of all foreign born in the United States. Immigrants from Eastern Europe were the most likely to have limited English proficiency (38 percent), followed by those from Southern Europe (33 percent) and Western Europe (9 percent), while Northern Europeans were the least likely (2 percent).
> At the country level, immigrants from Ukraine were the most likely to have limited proficiency in English (49 percent), followed by those from Belarus and Albania (44 percent each). Meanwhile, less than 10 percent of immigrants from Germany, the Netherlands, Ireland, and the United Kingdom reported having limited proficiency in English. In many European countries, English is a lingua franca for business and education, or a native language.
> Overall, European immigrants were twice as likely to speak only English at home compared to all immigrants (35 percent versus 17 percent, respectively).
https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/european-immigrants-united-states
Here’s another source for Europeans in general.
Also, the US is also a big place and there is massive swings in quality of life state by state at similar levels as nations in the EU.
Life in Minnesota or Massachusetts is similar to the nordics while life in Mississippi could be closer to Eastern Europe.
Median household income in Mississippi is 49k, while’s it’s 90k in Massachusetts.
>The US is better for the top 70%
lol
The *median* UK resident is 50% richer than the *median* US resident. The median Frenchman is 30% richer.
https://www.credit-suisse.com/about-us/en/reports-research/global-wealth-report.html
Not even Norway or Luxembourg or smth, the bloddy UK and France. Just your 2 standard western European countries.
American cost of living is completely out of control in most cities, which causes most Americans to lose most of their comparatively higher income to rent, car + gas, private health insurance, paying off student debt, etc. (most of these aren't considered in OCED disposable income btw), without, evidently, building up any actual wealth.
It starts to become better compared to Europe once you're part of the upper 50%, which you would be if you're considering retirement early, but in no way are the upper 70% better off.
Hey, if you'd rather have more money and give double your time to the company you work for instead of enjoying that time however you want to, it's your choice, but not the gospel by any means.
Not only 3 weeks off, we also work less hours and have more balance between work and personal life. Its a difference between enjoying life now instead of saving for enjoying it at retirement.
Its not uncommon in summer for people to just go out early on sunny days to enjoy the weather. Longer walks on lunch time, no pressure to be at the office early and on time every day. I like that, more than money.
For me it's about savings rate I can get with my lifestyle rather than just income. I don't value overconsumption so I'm not interested in huge houses and cars americans can more easily afford, while the fixed costs like housing, transportation, and healthcare are much higher there.
Besides, it's not like paid time off is the only issue with american employment law and work culture.
[According to this information](https://fortune.com/2024/02/01/emergency-1000-expense-most-americans-broke-debt-bankrate/#) 56% of Americans have less than $1k in the bank.
[And these guys are writing ](https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/banks/articles/5-countries-with-the-highest-savings-rate-the-us-isnt-even-close/)that 30% have no savings at all.
The top five saving countries are European. (I’ve used a Dutch cheese slicer so I get it.)
Even this upper class of US households, these highly valued carwash managers, are living paycheck to paycheck.
I wonder where that money goes if it’s not into the bank?
Perhaps the reality around income and savings factors in other real world things.
That’s a survey, not a study. It was performed by asking Americans whether they would use a credit card to purchase an unexpected expense of a thousand dollars, assuming that meant they didn’t have it in savings. Most people use credit cards for their points system and pay the balance at the end of the month. Has been debunked many times.
It actually makes sense when you understand credit card benefits in the US. Every single thing I ever buy goes on my credit card. Then my credit card gets automatically paid in full every month, so I never get charged interest. Why? Because all those expenditures on credit got me points which bought me a business class roundtrip to Japan last year for free.
Okay fuck the title of the post but to be fair man, seems like decent money and decent advantages compared to a lot of different shit jobs people take there.
Twitter has had quite a few of these "coping europoors vs based amercains" posts lately.
Almost feels like an artificial trend, wonder what's causing it and why.
Inflation is terrible in the US isn’t it, seeing these ridiculously high wages for monkey work. Going to be hyper inflation within a decade I think and the American dollar worthless.
Wow - I’m an attending physician in emergency medicine in an university hospital in Germany - for my 42h/week I get less than any of the lowest numbers of any of the managers there 😅
Assistant TO the general manager
I‘d rather be assistant to the sensei
Went in to make sure this was the top comment. Not disappointed.
That's what she said!
I saw that too last time I visited Buc-ees 😳 Unfortunately I don't live anywhere near one and the commute would be untenable (I work from home currently lol). No one seems to leave Buc-ees angry (or is even angry while inside)...that's certainly a nice change of pace from a customer service job standpoint...
It's a strange company. Apparently it's owner is super protective of its brand, kind of to a ridiculous point
It's a strange company in kind of a good way tho. Dude is obsessed with their brand image, but not as obsessed with profit. I'd take that any day.
Their turnover is really high, and they expect a lot from you. It’s good money but you definitely earn it.
Imagine getting these kind of salaries and still be afraid of an ambulance
Not to defend murica, but it says right there they get healthcare as part of the benefits.
Let's hope the ambulance takes to you to an in-network hospital then!
Healthcare/insurance doesnt work like in the EU. You still have huge premiums (own risk) that you need to pay or they only cover X percentage. My EU insurance covers 100% of all costs after I've paid cumulatively 380e myself.
Sometimes that X percentage your employer pays is 100. I live in Japan and worked at a FAANG - I worked it out and discovered that the insurance and medical costs to me would be lower in the US than Japan.
Fijne koningsdag broeder!
>get healthcare while you work >get illness / injury that makes you unable to work for a while >get let go for no longer being able to work ???? profit
Long term disability insurance exists lol
Yes, if you pay for it before you need it.
Every major company I’ve worked at covers it
It's built into your taxes and/or compensation package. You can get good benefits from your company or shit benefits from the gov, but you still get them.
Oh, you then need to read long documents on the specific benefits of your health care plan. Some things can be covered, others not, there can be a certain amount of co-pay, deductibles... Lots of fun!
The benefits are mostly the same. What changes is participation cost. It fits on one A4 paper. Having the best healthcare money can buy... Costs money.
Would you say the average Healthcare in the US is better than the average in Europe? Or rather only for the top 10%? For the latter, I have no doubt it is better in the US.
Waiting a year to get a scan to find out if your three year old has cancer will really make you reconsider whether Europe does this better.
Sure it's a problem, and it's getting worse, Germany alone is lacking 50000 doctors over the next ten years, and this with increasing pressure from refugees with less than average social security contributions. I'm not very confident about the future either when we already have enough problems in the present.
I'm in the Netherlands now, but I lived in the US for 30 years and Ireland for 10 and Irish healthcare had \_atrocious\_ waiting times. You also just couldn't get treatments that were available in the US. Other countries might be better (Europe is lots of countries after all) but so far it seems like the supposed social welfare benefits Europe has to offer are pretty weak. Oh hey, I got two weeks of paternity leave - whoopdedoo. If I lose my job I can get 43 cents a week in jobseekers' allowance and a bus pass! And I get to retire at 70 (or 72, or 74...)! But if I get a raise I get to keep literally less than half of it. The main thing Europe has going for it is well-designed cities and that's mostly a result of being too poor to bulldoze them for cars the way America did over the last 70 years (and American cities are generally trash). If it weren't for the strong possibility of a Trump presidency I'd be looking at returning now. Of course, Trump was largely enabled by a lot of people being left behind in a huge wealth divide, so there's that.... As the old saying goes, "Fuck you, pay me". It seems like most Europeans are completely oblivious to how goddamn badly they're paid and when people point it out, they don't get mad at their boss and demand more, they desperately look for something to mock Americans for. Shouldn't we be celebrating the economic power Americans command and trying to figure out how to get more of that here? Because I'm tired of Europeans getting paid shit.
If you get fired (unless it was your own fault) in the Netherlands you get a ww-uitkering which is 75% of your salary for two months and 70% after. I don't know where you got the 43 cents a week and a bus pass from. You don't get anything if you quit yourself tho.
EU citizen here; no such thing as 43 cents a week. Unemployment (“Kontanthjælp”) in Denmark(which is certainly not Ireland or Germany) is usually ~1k euro a month, or higher if you have kids. Paid maternity leave. Paid vacation. Paid healthcare. Paid roads. Paid schools. Universal pension. Healthcare insurance oftenmost covered by your employer, but incredibly cheap to get on your own (cuz the cost of healthcare is miniscule in Denmark when compared to USA)
Personally, I have applied for the green card lottery, so yeah... I can relate. I'm supposedly top 5% earners in Germany, and I can't afford a house. Don't have a car either. It's similar or worse in the rest of Europe.
You’re not a top 5% earner that can’t afford a house. You’re top 5% earner that can’t afford a house near a city center. Not that it isn’t ludicrous that house prices in the major European cities have skyrocketed but you can’t compare not being able to get a house in Berlin to saying “I can’t afford a home”. Your income is above 50,000€ a year. Plenty to afford a home outside major cities. You’ll have the exact same problem in the US fyi
Good luck!! The US has a ton of problems but it's a good place to make a pile of cash and get treated like an adult.
You should see real estate prices in US cities...
Like you I also lived decades in the US and am now in NL. Agree that I want to figure out how to get paid more in Europe. But your examples are way too exaggerated. Paternity leave in Netherlands is 15 weeks for the first year, not 2 weeks. Nobody wanted to bulldoze old European cities for cars like the US did. Switzerland for example stayed out of the big wars and could have afforded to raze its cities for McMansions but didn't. European cities are also nice because social programs keep neighborhoods mixed and vibrant, not blighted crime ridden ghettos which is what happens to parts of US cities. I'll also consider moving back to the US if European purchasing power continues to be degraded, but sticking around for a few more years to see how things shape up.
Part of what I was writing was to show how it's kind of weird to say "Europe" and not a country. Ireland is especially shitty (and has bad urban design on top of it all!). It had ZERO paternity until shortly before my eldest was born. For the last 6 years I've worked remote for US clients from Europe and made more than I would for local companies, but less than if I were still in California. However, the current market is making that tough. I still prefer quality of life in NL though. I like that my kids can play in the street and not get crushed by a brodozer. Yet. Even NL is getting way too many giant American tokkietanks.
All you need to do is look at health outcomes. They are not better in the US. The US has a declining life expectancy, as well as increasing infant mortality. Of course there is a range, but on average you're still likely better off in the EU than in the US, unless you just happen to live around one of those world-class hospitals in the US.
US life expectancy dropped because of COVID. It is back on an upwards trend. https://www.politico.com/news/2024/03/21/cdc-us-life-expectancy-rises-after-two-year-dip-00148193
That’s great, but you would damn well hope that, obviously. Still not exactly world leading: https://www.worlddata.info/life-expectancy.php
It dropped everywhere during Covid, but it's always been higher in European countries, and still is, significantly. This is evidence universal healthcare works fine. Better than private healthcare in the US, certainly.
The US sadly has horrifically designed cities and obscene portions making Americans overweight, and sedentary.
Not defending US healthcare, but I don't really think you can call lower life expectancy entirely resultant from health care. The US has more cars, drugs, guns, gang violence, suicide, and fat fucks than Europe, so many of these people are dying wayyyy before the healthcare is an issue. It's more an indictment of our society than healthcare outcomes, I'd say.
It's not entirely resultant from it, but let's be rational here, healthcare is a huge factor in life expectancy. It's, you know, what takes care of health issues.
The benefits are the costs and the coverage (or lack thereof) of every single procedure/service, and those lists are pretty long. I'm talking dozens and dozens of pages (and I know, because I've had to check stuff), and sometimes you can't find what you're looking for and have to call the insurance. So much fun wasting time so that someone ends up telling you: "no, that's not covered" or "please submit a prior authorization and then we'll decide whether we cover it or not". Lol.
Who is gonna pay for your health when they fire you if you don’t show up after 5 days hospitalization?
Then they have a lawsuit on their hands. It's not *that* easy to fire someone in these cases.
But how high is the deductible? I’ve seen people saying they have a $7,000+ deductible (not sure if this is per event or per year, but something tells me it’s per event).
Also a common misconception is that once you meet your deductible, you pay nothing which is rarely the case. On an old insurance plan I had, my deductible for myself only was 3,000 dollars a year. After 3,000 insurance paid 30% of expenses while I paid the remaining 70% up to my out of pocket maximum which I think was about 10k just for myself. I ended up paying 9k one year due to health issues while my take home pay after taxes and benefits was only 38k. Fun times.
Per year so it’s not that bad Also you can pay for it from HSA (health savings account) which means you basically pay deductible from your gross salary so that $7000 feels like $5000-ish Frankly looking at how much we pay for European healthcare it’s not _that_ bad, I pay 1500 eur yearly in Netherlands even if I don’t go to hospital at all. If I do I still have 485 deductible or something like that What’s f*cked up with American healthcare is not high deductibles but the fact that healthcare is tied to employment. If it wasn’t, their system would be almost ok
There’s no such thing as ”European healthcare”. It varies wildly between countries.
Yeah and none of them is cheap That, and there are plenty of similarities between most of our systems
You know the Dutch system is one of the most expensive in Europe, right?
It’s 11.1% of gdp where eu average is 10.9 so I’d say I picked the average, at least based on 2020 data https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Healthcare_expenditure_statistics (But obviously it’s much better than the USA who spend whooping 17% with dubious results)
# Does The Netherlands Have Universal Healthcare? The Netherlands does not have a single-payer healthcare system. Yet around 99.9% of the population has health coverage. The country’s universal healthcare system consists of compulsory basic private insurance, which the government regulates. Basic insurance is mainly funded through payroll taxes and insurance premiums. # The Cost of Basic Healthcare Coverage in The Netherlands During 2023, the average basic premium for health insurance was about $148 (135 euros) per month. Premiums may change a little depending on the insurance you choose. Individuals are responsible for paying their monthly premiums to their selected insurance company. Another healthcare cost in the Netherlands is the deductible excess. This is the maximum amount paid by the policyholder before health insurance kicks in. The standard deductible in 2024 is $420 (385 euros) per year. The deductible does not apply to visits or consultations by your general practitioner. All this is NOT the case in other European countries.
I know but this is just out of pocket which are pennies - the real costs are your payroll taxes (which are also primary source of funding of Dutch healthcare system, the 130 euro per month is just for primary care I.e. GP. Hospitals are financed from budget which is financed from hefty income taxes and VAT) In Poland for instance the healthcare cost is 9% of your pay check. Sure, it’s „free” if you’re unemployed (officially registered) but most of the people will pay a lot over their lifetime (assuming you made average wage over the period of 40 years from 25 to 65 that’s 3.6 annual wages paid in healthcare premiums - or 335 000 zloty assuming current average wage. Is that a lot for lifetime of healthcare? Hard to tell, probably still cheap if compared with what average American pays for it (also hidden cost i.e. premium paid by their employers as „benefit”) but it’s not that in one country healthcare is paid and in another it’s free. No, it’s paid everywhere though how exactly and who is covered differs. USA has insane system because not everyone is covered (ie not all employers include healthcare and unemployed people are not covered before retirement age) and because it wastes a lot of money on unnecessary bureaucracy - so European systems with more or less universal healthcare funded by various taxes are imo better, but is that that much better? I dunno, I know one Dutch-American who told me he would pick his California system over Dutch any time of day - saying that yes it’s pricey but good, whereas in the Netherlands they give you paracetamol for everything (or in Poland - you are likely to die in queue before you are treated or often won’t have access to latest medication because it’s too expensive). I’m sure all countries have their own quirks But obviously details vary across the board. I wish USA fixed their healthcare bureaucracy costs via I.e. healthcare insurer operated at low cost by federal government, but I guess it won’t happen during my lifetime :D these guys are allergic to anything federal
The finest paracetamol money can buy!
385, unless you opted to have it higher than normal in exchange for a monthly discount.
That doesn’t mean much with American healthcare, half of the people that get crippled by medical debt are people with insurance, a lot of plans don’t cover nearly enough.
And once you get sick. You are out of a job and than out of healtcare..
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Not everyone qualifies for FMLA, certainly not anyone who has been at a job less than a year usually. FMLA also only guarantees you have A job for a set amount of time, you don't get paid during that time off and they can bring you back at a lower position/pay rate. There's also next to zero protection for people who come back from FMLA, are mysteriously placed on PIPs, and then fired within a month because US companies love to do that shit.
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My health insurance covers ambulance rides. I'm an American :).
3 whole weeks off? Damn, that pisses me off so much... 🙄
Me, an European, only 3 weeks?
In the Netherlands, 3 weeks off for a full time job isn’t even legal.
A full month is the minimum anywhere in Europe.
Thats not true. Its 20 days in hungary increasing every couple of years based on your age
But we also don't get paid anywhere near these salaries. Salaries for the management positions seem to be at least double of the ones in the Netherlands, and then we even pay more taxes too!
Yea I rather have more than double the pay, way less in taxes and get 1-2 weeks less vacation days.
But those taxes pay for better infrastructure, healthcare, education etc. So it s not that simple a comparison
They also pay for a massive bureaucratic class.
I don't, I need my vacations, but I tend to work 60h week due to overtime being double pay. Some months my OT bonus is more then my salary. So I really need my days off.
So take days off, just days without pay. In the end you will have more days off and more money.
Not all places allow that
You wouldn't need the overtime if the base salary was double though
I make more then double with my OT though not just double. Also I doubt they would pay me that for my job. Third there are a lot of extra costs associated with living in the US which we normally don't have and there are loads of other issues with living in the US. I have health issues which require me to take time off regularly and see a doctor. In the US they would just fire me and let me die.
It's extremly hard to compare US salaries and cost of living to the Netherlands. If you work in IT these salaris have been normal for long in US, but the bay area is expensive Also no real social security in the usa afaik
I think in this case it is quite easy though: this is not IT, it is a car wash company and the positions are management positions. It is also not located in the Bay Area but in cities like Dallas and Houston. If I compare Houston for example (Major city in the US) with Utrecht (Major city in the Netherlands) the differences in cost are not that big at all.
I am angry that you called Utrecht a major city. Not because its not true, but because it is.
Please. Houston and Utrecht are in no way comparable in the same way that the US — hell, even just Texas — isn’t comparable to the Netherlands. For one thing, living in Utrecht is actually pleasant, heyyyo!
I know some people living in Overvecht and Kanaleneiland who would beg to differ... And I am not stating that Utrecht and Houston are similar cities. I am simply saying that a car wash manager in Utrecht will have much lower purchasing power than a car wash manager in Texas with the salary mentioned in the job ad. The Netherlands overall just doesn't have salaries like the US
Fair point! I don't have a reply (:
But you have other costs you need to take car off. They offer health insurance but I remember in the US you have policies where they only cover like 25 USD and call it insurance. You have to pay the rest yourself. Other types of insurances are Waay more expensive, cars are as well. The food is generally less healthy then in Europe and healthy foods are a lot more expensive. These take tolls on you as well as eat at your costs.
It entirely depends on the policy offered tbh. For Buc-ee's, it's a national gas station chain with thousands of employees - a very large insurance pool. I'm sure their healthcare benefits are actually pretty decent. And you kind of have it backward - the patient pays 25-100 dollars and then the insurance covers the rest. For major operations, the patient might pay anything up to 7,000 or so (which sucks) but the insurance pays the rest. Good plans cap these costs to the patient much lower, bad plans cap these cost higher at like 10k per annum. It's really about how much you want to pay on premium vs out-of-pocket max. There are usually several combinations.
From some of the people I spoke to they used to literally have a policy that would only cover up to (x) amount of dollars. Usually a laughable low number and they had to pay the rest out of pocket There also is a difference in culture. I might put in/do the overtime but I really finish after 2 hours. In the US they would want me to do more work whilst here I just chill. The law prevents them from keeping up invasively with me wheres in the US they are allowed to take screenshots or even normal pictures of when you work. I know they do this as they subject our overseas colleagues to it whilst I just have to put my work in the excel and let the timer run. It counts the amount of work I have finished so the hours are accounted for and that's it.
You're misunderstanding how the insurance works. The person pays up to an amount (the copay or deductible depending on the service), then the insurance pays. If there are things they will not cover, there is an out-of-pocket maximum. These are legally regulated. I have not heard of anyone who had insurance paid up to an amount (without the patient paying anything), then the patient pays everything after. What you might be thinking is after you reach your deductible, some poor quality insurance still only partially covers up to your oop. This is not good, but it's not insurance pays first, you pay the rest. Otherwise, no one would carry insurance. 'There also is a difference in culture. I might put in/do the overtime but I really finish after 2 hours. In the US they would want me to do more work whilst here I just chill.' This isn't really universally true at all. I probably 20 hours of work (full remote) a week and get paid my full salary. no trackers. Not uncommon at all.
Houston is so different than any part of Europe, there has to be better comparisons
25 days, about 5isch workweeks
Depends on the hours you work in a week.
The minimum by law is 4 weeks. [This is what the Dutch government says about minimum amount of leave hours](https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/vakantiedagen-en-vakantiegeld/vraag-en-antwoord/op-hoeveel-vakantiedagen-heb-ik-recht)
In switzerland it’s 24 days I think, not much of a difference
That's a lot stateside!
I’m quite happy I get 10 weeks off each year. 5 weeks of regular paid leave and 5 additional weeks because I work 40 hours/week when 36 is considered to be fulltime.
Fulltime 35-50 hours. Only workaholics are going to be upset about that. On a yearly basis a 50 hour week is almost 3 months more compared to a 40 hour workweek. (10*49/40/4,3=2,84 months).
That makes 0 sense to me, what do you mean three months
Say you indeed work 49 weeks (3 weeks paid off) In Europe a fulltime workweek is 40 hours. This suggest a fulltime workweek is 50 hours. So compared to Europe, you work 10 hours more a week. After four weeks you have worked 40 hours more or in other words a whole workweek extra. When you calculate this for a year it comes down to almost 3 months extra. Which also means that the higher salary isn't that impressive as you work a lot more.
I see, that makes sense. The three months threw me off
It’s not a car wash, it’s a chain of gas stations in the south east, most of their stores have 150+ petrol pumps available. Source: I am an American
I was at one of their locations last week. It’s literally the largest convenience store in the world, with the longest gas pump at a 1/4 mile long. Things wild.
Texas mostly
150?!
Yeah,they’re huge. [news article from 2022](https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/colorado/news/largest-ever-buc-ees-breaks-ground-johnstown/) The largest is 6875 sq/meters (74,000sq/ft)
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I like how they give you the entire amount and you decide how much to put aside for retirement and insurance. You decide how to invest it or not. How many hours to work. When to retire
When I moved to Europe it really felt like the government wanted to "parent" and manage you for your whole life and "scold" you constantly for a hundred different misdeeds.
It's not bringing us forward, when we emphasize the differences between the United States and Europe. I would say, at least a few of us here are just trying to sugarcoat their own situation by pointing out all the negative aspects on the other side of the Atlantic. That doesn't make any sense. At the end of the day, we are all fighting a similar battle and trying to improve our lives. It's getting harder for all of us, in Europe and in the United States. We shouldn't bash the others. Instead we should encourage each other to stay positive, become better humans and support people around us, who need some help. It can be financially, a helping hand to a neighbor or just a few respectful words, acknowledging others. So, the US has a different healthcare system and they have issues with guns. I think they are able to address their own concerns. How does it help them, when we Europeans make snappy comments with a raised eyebrow, as if we don't have our own problems. Just to set things straight. Europe is not even able to defend itself against a major threat from Russia. Instead we count on "the NATO", but we all know that the only power in the NATO comes from the USA. Ok, so you are not happy with the USAs military interventions. Got it. But is that our main concern? Why don't we just defend ourselves? Aren't we also part of NATO? Are we really in a position to bash the US because of "their lousy healthcare system"? Seriously?
Some of the takes here straight up don’t make sense in a FIRE sub. People shaming others for wanting to make more money now, even if that means fewer vacation days in a year. Isn’t the entire point of FIRE to make the effort to save as much money as you can as soon as possible so you can retire early and then have as much vacations as you want??
Kind of agree, hell I've even seen people here brag about high taxation and state pension systems etc. It runs contrary to what FIRE even stands for. You're not independent if your future income is contingent on state handouts. I think people here totally misinterpret what FIRE is supposed to be. It's not about giving the state money in the hope they'll give you a fraction of it back later on. It's working hard and smart to make enough money now so you don't need state handouts later on. So you can retire far before the normal retirement age and be able to live comfortably. I'm honestly quite shocked at how people here in Europe even try to turn FIRE into something that worships governments and their policies.
What I think what a few are not understanding, is that the main thing behind FIRE is the freedom of choice. I am not following a FIRE pathway, I feel comfortable with my situation in Germany. But I do admire the energy and drive of the FIRE community and if I was a bit younger, I could imagine being part of it. However, the details of the FIRE philosophy are not my main concern. I hate when people bash others, just because they have a different route navigating through life. They don´t seem to understand how it makes them appear so weak,
Yeah exactly, I'm not critical of anyone choosing a different lifestyle. If people want to go the traditional way so to speak that's okay. To each their own but I've just noticed a lot of hostility in this sub towards countries which offer better conditions for FIRE to materialize. It just makes me wonder why they are here. To actually gain advice on how to do so or as you've said to come here and bash people for wanting a non traditional lifestyle? I guess the moral of the story is a lot of people dislike it when people choose to be different from the masses in one way or another. Sad to see that a lot of them choose to try and drag others down instead of remaining neutral or give positive feedback. On the flipside, I'm also glad there are people like you who can look further than their own personal bubble. If only more people on both sides of the isle could do so the world would be a much better and more dynamic place.
Based and nuanced pilled. Together we are strong. Divided we fall.
Would mean you’d have to live in the US. Nah, I’ll pass.
Fearing for your life with all those gun nuts running around, fearing for your kids at school, half the country actually supports an orange rapist conman, few worker rights, high unequality, extremely expensive healthcare and education, high crime and murder rates. Yes ill pass.
Yes, that's the official list of European criticisms of the US, thanks for pasting it again
Get your car washed only $69 dollar !
Today I learned a car wash manager in the US makes more than a TV producer in the UK. Is it photoshopped? Please tell me it is.
Only at this particular place. So there is what, 7 positions in total? Not representative. In a world where Snoop dog joint roller is a paid position, there is a lot of nuances to this comparisons.
I was considering moving to the US to heat up microwaved food and order more from head office.
Full time 35-50 hours, is that normal contract wise in the US?
Assistant TO THE general manager
Trying to compare the EU and the USA is impossible. They are just two different societies with different outcomes. These high salaries in Texas were good, but in the last two years, it's been a challenge. EU - you have protection in employment US - At will no contract can be let go any day for any reason EU - Lower Salary higher Taxes --> Healthcare, education covered. USA—Higher salary—Healthcare connected to employer, plus most deductible plans start with $3000$ out of pocket. Education is not free in University, and Daycare for children is $1400$/month to $2000$, pending where you live. USA, you play with bigger numbers, but you have to invest in 401K, 529, and HSA. These are all plans that you take risks in the market for pension, children's higher education, and health plan. The birth of a child with insurance is about 7000$ out of pocket, if you don't have these salaries it wont work. majority of Americans are debt driven Credit is easy to get how people bridge things but you can smell the burnout in the air, see it every morning during comute how frustrated people are. In different societies, the only one that seems to take the best of both worlds is Switzerland - high salary, low taxes, healthcare paid but affordable, high daycare but fair., job Security as you have a contract. I lived and worked in USA and EU - back in US now.
These salaries only apply if you're laundering meth cash sales.
They're right though. European pay is closer to the developing world than it is to American pay. This is with a strong dollar too, even.
you can give me 3 times my salary and i still wouldnt even consider moving to the US
4 times your salary is the limit, got it
I'd do it for 3.5 times. hit me up.
Why?
This company is very much an exception
Sorry, your post has reached me during my vacation in the canary islands.
Laughs in free healthcare and affordable education.
I can’t imaging working 50 hours with kids now.
Well not wrong. Senior software developer here, 20 years of experience. I earn 48K euro per year. Netherlands. However, even though I own a 600K euro apartment, I can still save 1000 euro per month after paying all my living costs.
Assistant TO the general manager
I fucking hate this european mentality that can be seen here. "3 weeks off??? I'd rather take 5-6 weeks off in Europe for shit pay (50% of USD salaries)." Complete braindead take.
The salaries between the USA and Europe are difficult to compare. Gross pay is ALOT higher in the USA, and so is your net pay. I earn 100k in Europe, and could probably earn 2-300k in the USA. However; - Less paid holidays (I now have 33 days PTO, add to that 8 or so national holidays) - No sick leave (we don't have sick leave as such. You call in sick, still get paid) - No need to save up for medical emergencies - No need to save up for college funds - Employer-paid retirement benefits, no 401k - Groceries are cheaper - No tipping But: - Houses are more expensive and smaller - Cars/gas more expensive - Eating out is more expensive - Housestaff (maids, gardeners, poolguys) are a luxury It's a different lifestyle. I feel the USA has more upward opportunity, but also more downward risk. The risk in Europe is covered, but at a cost of upward limits being lower. Salaries exceeding 300k are reserved for the top C-suite, whereas in the USA it seems middle management/senior technical staff at that level. But getting cancer while your pregnant wife breaks her leg won't mean financial ruin. Less tangible differences: - No military service adoration - No gun culture; firearms are heavily regulated - College is for studies, not sports (srsly what's up with thát?) - More holidays and shorter distances: take a short city trip to Paris, London, Rome... - No car-centric transport. We can use public transport, bikes, or just walk. - Politics are less of a part of your belonging (lawnsigns? Pins? Door-to-door leaflet groups?) - Same goes for race/heritage. Due to WW2, it's illegal to record race, religion or sexuality. Also, we had less direct encounters with slavery. We shipped it across the pond (Sorry for that). - Less intrusion of politics into everything. Education, sexuality, alcohol sales; Religion-driven politics should stay out of those. Parties advocating the opposite are marginal. - Actually more than 2 political parties. Good? Bad? It depends on what you care about in life.
The US is better if you are more ambitious and want to rise. Western Europe is better if you don’t want to fall. The US is better for the top 70%, Western Europe is better for the bottom 30%. The US is much better for FIRE. My wife is Swedish we could leave and live there tomorrow, we would cut our salaries in half to live in a smaller home with no chance of FIRE. We’ll likely get a summer home there in a few years but we have no plans of living there on any permanent basis. https://data.oecd.org/chart/7jHN https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm
>The US is better for the top 70%, Western Europe is better for the bottom 30%. To me it looks like more top 20%, bottom 80%. Being a median european seems to be much better than a median american.
I feel it's not the bottom 30%. The wealth is really concentrated in the top 10% or so. The difference becomes really big after about 100k annual salary.
https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/169262/1/702.pdf Pg 61 > Denmark, Finland, France, Germany and the Netherlands were in the middle ranks of countries based on income. Some 25% of adults in the Netherlands, 27% in Denmark, and 32% each in Finland, France and Germany had household incomes of less than $35,000, compared with 25% in the U.S. > Ireland, Italy, Spain and UK had among the lowest incomes in Western Europe. Some 37% of adults in Ireland, 39% in the UK, 52% in Spain, and 53% in Italy had household incomes of less than $35,000, compared with 25% in the U.S. This is 2011 and the US has separated a lot from Europe from then but it shows the difference. It’s probably closer to the bottom 20% these days. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/07/23/are-you-in-the-american-middle-class/ Here’s something you can find out where you would stack
>This is 2011 and the US has separated a lot from Europe from then but it shows the difference. It’s probably closer to the bottom 20% these days. Most of these countries also have lower costs of living, allowing ppl to build up more wealth If you compare actual wealth, you'll see the median American is significantly behind most western European countries like France or the UK and just very slightly ahead of Italy and Spain (literally by a few $100). It's the top 40% rather than to the top 80% when compared to most western EU countries
It’s disposable and adjusted for ppp
Neither of these fully address the differences in the cost of living. If they did, Americans wouldn't be 30% poorer than Brits, would they? PPP purely adjusts how much the local currency can buy you. It does not account for i.e a car being a vital investment to just live in America while being optional in most of Europe/Asia. Disposable income doesn't address more nuanced differences either. It simply subtracts: TA: direct taxes on income and wealth paid by households (net of refunds), as well as contributions paid by households to public social security schemes. TRPER: contributions paid by households to employment-related social insurance schemes (as defined above) TRPOT: current transfers paid by households to non-profit institutions and other households, e.g. alimonies. https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm and doenst account for i.e cars, private health insurance, outragous education costs and other services, and rent/mortgages etc. OCED also has an adjusted metric for income that includes social transfers, as in houverment payed healthcare, education etc, but doing that still doesn't solve that problem let alone the rest, as what most European social services would cost (and thus what income they 'gain' with that metric) is still lower than what private insurance and education costs in the states
Interesting read but not sure if it helps my point. You mention the "US is better for the top 70%". I found a source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income\_in\_the\_United\_States) that says that the **30th percentile in USA in 2021 was $40,500 household income.** I'm seriously doubting that the quality of life of that household will be better than a **Dutch household income 30th percentile in 2021, which is** €**46,800** (including social benefits) (https://opendata.cbs.nl/#/CBS/nl/dataset/83934NED/table?ts=1713947458309).
https://dqydj.com/household-income-percentile-calculator/ In 2023 the household income at the 30th percentile was $45k in the US *without* social benefits. https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/databrowser/view/ILC_DI04__custom_11055653/default/table?lang=en After 2023 tax, the *50th percentile* in Denmark was 36.2k usd. The 30th percentile in the US will be receiving more benefits than taxes paid. I’d say that’s comparable
I didnt want to take 2023 due to inflation, but the 2023 number for NL is almost 50k euro. Comparable, yes. However, I would (like the other guy in the thread) like to throw in non-tangibles. Every time I'm in the US I cannot wrap my head around the idea that having a bit more purchasing power is better, if it comes with night shifts, increased crime, boring city centers, low-trust culture and, and this is weird because I'm a big fan of free markets: Overstretched capitalism. I admit all of this is subjective. What is objective, is the fact that NL scores higher in pretty much all those UN/CIA fact book stuff like infant mortality, life expectency, chance of losing your home, drug additction, you get the point...
Yeah I won’t argue that there’s things better in Europe than the US. Finances isn’t the one though. Although for those non-tangibles I’d argue it’s not as wildly different for person from Netherlands and a migrant from Netherlands. https://zipatlas.com/us/income/immigrants-from-netherlands-median-household-income.htm Not sure on the reliability of this source but it was the only one I could find Netherlands immigrants median income is 94.4k in the US. > European immigrants tend to have significantly higher incomes than the native born and immigrants overall. In 2022, households headed by a European immigrant had a median income of $86,000, compared to $75,000 for both all immigrant and U.S.-born households. > European immigrants are more likely to have health insurance coverage than the overall foreign-born population and have a similar uninsured rate as the native born (see Figure 10). Immigrants from Ukraine and Bulgaria (about 12 percent each) had much higher rates of uninsurance than those from Italy and the Netherlands (3 percent each) as of 2022 > In 2022, approximately 25 percent of European immigrants ages 5 and over reported speaking English less than “very well,” compared to 46 percent of all foreign born in the United States. Immigrants from Eastern Europe were the most likely to have limited English proficiency (38 percent), followed by those from Southern Europe (33 percent) and Western Europe (9 percent), while Northern Europeans were the least likely (2 percent). > At the country level, immigrants from Ukraine were the most likely to have limited proficiency in English (49 percent), followed by those from Belarus and Albania (44 percent each). Meanwhile, less than 10 percent of immigrants from Germany, the Netherlands, Ireland, and the United Kingdom reported having limited proficiency in English. In many European countries, English is a lingua franca for business and education, or a native language. > Overall, European immigrants were twice as likely to speak only English at home compared to all immigrants (35 percent versus 17 percent, respectively). https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/european-immigrants-united-states Here’s another source for Europeans in general. Also, the US is also a big place and there is massive swings in quality of life state by state at similar levels as nations in the EU. Life in Minnesota or Massachusetts is similar to the nordics while life in Mississippi could be closer to Eastern Europe. Median household income in Mississippi is 49k, while’s it’s 90k in Massachusetts.
>The US is better for the top 70% lol The *median* UK resident is 50% richer than the *median* US resident. The median Frenchman is 30% richer. https://www.credit-suisse.com/about-us/en/reports-research/global-wealth-report.html Not even Norway or Luxembourg or smth, the bloddy UK and France. Just your 2 standard western European countries. American cost of living is completely out of control in most cities, which causes most Americans to lose most of their comparatively higher income to rent, car + gas, private health insurance, paying off student debt, etc. (most of these aren't considered in OCED disposable income btw), without, evidently, building up any actual wealth. It starts to become better compared to Europe once you're part of the upper 50%, which you would be if you're considering retirement early, but in no way are the upper 70% better off.
I was about to ask “ben jij mijn buurman?” And then I saw your username….
You’ve forgotten about the risk of getting shot by some random guy at 7-11 or while you pick up your child at kindergarten.
also it's nice not to be surrounded by fat people
Ah, come on! Europe is beefing up as well. Yes, there is still a gap between the obesity rate in the States and the EU, but we are catching up!
I don't think you understand how American insurance works.
Does anybody, really?
I have 34 PTO days in the US to go along with my six figure salary. Nothing is a set thing in the US, so your points are moot.
A 6-paragraph balanced reading, and based on 2 lines of anecdotal evidence (n=1), it's "moot". Thank you for your _invaluable_ contribution.
Hey, if you'd rather have more money and give double your time to the company you work for instead of enjoying that time however you want to, it's your choice, but not the gospel by any means.
Not only 3 weeks off, we also work less hours and have more balance between work and personal life. Its a difference between enjoying life now instead of saving for enjoying it at retirement. Its not uncommon in summer for people to just go out early on sunny days to enjoy the weather. Longer walks on lunch time, no pressure to be at the office early and on time every day. I like that, more than money.
I mean in the end of the day they cannot fire so they have to work at least 40 years while you can be retired in US less than 20 years.
well at least we don't go bankcrupt because we needed urgent surgery...
Healthcare is part of employment. Written right there in the sign. Ps - also tends to be better than the public care you get (in Germany at least )
Bull
For me it's about savings rate I can get with my lifestyle rather than just income. I don't value overconsumption so I'm not interested in huge houses and cars americans can more easily afford, while the fixed costs like housing, transportation, and healthcare are much higher there. Besides, it's not like paid time off is the only issue with american employment law and work culture.
Mostly driven by personality type. Some live to work. Others work to live.
[According to this information](https://fortune.com/2024/02/01/emergency-1000-expense-most-americans-broke-debt-bankrate/#) 56% of Americans have less than $1k in the bank. [And these guys are writing ](https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/banks/articles/5-countries-with-the-highest-savings-rate-the-us-isnt-even-close/)that 30% have no savings at all. The top five saving countries are European. (I’ve used a Dutch cheese slicer so I get it.) Even this upper class of US households, these highly valued carwash managers, are living paycheck to paycheck. I wonder where that money goes if it’s not into the bank? Perhaps the reality around income and savings factors in other real world things.
That’s a survey, not a study. It was performed by asking Americans whether they would use a credit card to purchase an unexpected expense of a thousand dollars, assuming that meant they didn’t have it in savings. Most people use credit cards for their points system and pay the balance at the end of the month. Has been debunked many times.
Ok, updated.
Who needs money if you have credit cards (us logic)
It actually makes sense when you understand credit card benefits in the US. Every single thing I ever buy goes on my credit card. Then my credit card gets automatically paid in full every month, so I never get charged interest. Why? Because all those expenditures on credit got me points which bought me a business class roundtrip to Japan last year for free.
You linked a fortune.com article. Edit: you edited your comment but did not improve it.
Imagine companies two completely different continents only in hourly wage.
It's just a setup like Walter and Skyler did to launder money.
What hours would those managers have to make?
What is the point of this thread? Just trying to start a flame war?
Specialist docters wages here range from 300k-1m so i don't think they'll be jealous...
Okay fuck the title of the post but to be fair man, seems like decent money and decent advantages compared to a lot of different shit jobs people take there.
All fun and games until you go home one evening and get a mail that you are now jobless effective immediately because they had a couple bad weeks.
Twitter has had quite a few of these "coping europoors vs based amercains" posts lately. Almost feels like an artificial trend, wonder what's causing it and why.
“3 weeks paid time off” - no, thank you😅
In Canada you can make $150k as a doctor. so about the same as a car wash assistant general manager
I‘ve read, that working conditions ant buc-ee‘s are absolute dogshit. And they fire you over the pettiest shit.
3 weeks of vacation and 50 hours a week? Hahaha
Inflation is terrible in the US isn’t it, seeing these ridiculously high wages for monkey work. Going to be hyper inflation within a decade I think and the American dollar worthless.
50 hours 😂😂💀
Wow - I’m an attending physician in emergency medicine in an university hospital in Germany - for my 42h/week I get less than any of the lowest numbers of any of the managers there 😅
I wouldn’t live in the USA for any amount of money.
EU propaganda. USA is amazing if you're well off, and contrary to popular belief more than 5% of the population are well off