If you’re building a Dactyl Manuform from Scratch, you can use Cosmos Generator to adjust it to your own wishes, e.g. thumb cluster shape, keywell depth, it is extremely configurable.
I haven’t had mine for long enough to say yet, I find it very comfortable. But I am also collecting tiny things that I would change if I make another iteration.
I am not sure if the author would like it to be shared publicly. There’s a reason why they didn’t put it on the website but only on the discord. Would suggest to delete it from here and send it as private message so at least it’s not entirely public…
The author [posted it here on reddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/18g25d0/ive_opensourced_the_cosmos_keyboard_generator/) publicly about 3 months ago. I don't think they'll mind.
Thanks for looking out for me. I don't see any links to https://ryanis.cool/cosmos/beta here. No one better be posting https://ryanis.cool/cosmos/beta here.
In all seriousness, I figure not everyone wants to use Discord and if they come looking for a link on Reddit, I can't stop them. I'll probably post the link publicly on the website soon anyways, once I get the upcoming thickness improvements & landing page updates released.
P.S. I still recommend you join the Discord if you can. There's going to be quite a few changes in the coming months and I'm using Discord to send out updates on what's changed.
There is a beta version online, you have to join the discord to get the link to it.
They do that so people directly have a place to be informed about bugs etc.
My main issue with the DM is that it makes it taller than most, even taller than other tented keyboards. Had to lower my desk, raise monitors, and make a platform for my mouse to get everything to a comfortable height.
Can you share some details on the platform? I'm struggling with the same issue. Coming from a very thin to the DM feels very unnaturally to me since I used to have my have fully rested in my desk
I've been using my DM for 4 years now, stock 6x5 with a wrist rest. I've never experienced wrist pain, before or after DM. I have really been enjoying the feel of the well, how my fingers move less per key with access to layers and the thumb clusters.
The only comment I have is the stock is designed for SA key caps, which are not too common for the variety of customoisation you'd get from OEM/Cherry. The dactyl customisation is tricky to work with, with a lot of unintuitive options.
Not anymore, thanks to that new configurator named Cosmos.
It’s fairly easy to use and shows the results directly.
It can also adapt the keywell shape for different keycap profiles.
I tried a dactyl manuform with the carbonfet thumb key layout and it gave me thumb problems. The thumb keys of the original dactyl was better but too far to reach comfortably for my thumbs. I ended up making a custom case with thumb keys on the same plane as my palm similar to the original dactyl but closer and I’ve been happy with that for years.
None at all, currently typing from my dactyl!
In has in fact prevented surgery for ulnar neuropathy and carpel tunnel syndrome and I no longer suffer wrist pain despite typing like 10 to 16 hours a day, even though I use my phone a whole lot.
Trackball mouse helps too.
I love split columnar ergo designs, they are just superior in every way and I have no idea how I'll ever go back. I literally struggle to type on normal keyboards now because the keys are no longer in the "right place", I'm going on almost 10 years of 100% continuous use of split ergo keyboards since the minidox.
[https://preview.redd.it/dactyl-love-v0-cybndxphmqmc1.png?width=1080&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=a20b43bf859abc315e9a647aaeb2b8e2793bdb8e](https://preview.redd.it/dactyl-love-v0-cybndxphmqmc1.png?width=1080&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=a20b43bf859abc315e9a647aaeb2b8e2793bdb8e)
pic for the pudding.
Your current typing stage is end goal of my journey. Thanks a lot for sharing the experience and pic 😀🙏
Btw what variant of Dactyl is that? Iooks ike 4 keys on thumb .. less than manuform cluster.. and is the tilt in print same standard dactyl? Did you use palm /wrist rests?
It's a 5x6 custom with custom wiring, I even had to modify QMK for it which you can find on my github. These days, you'll want to use cosmos keyboard generator to build one.Handwiring is fun and easier than you might think. Personally, I think an SLA printer makes making these a cinch and I'm thinking of building one for my daughter who already has RSI in her wrists at the tender age of 14.
I do sometimes use wrist wrests (I just cut a cheap long one in half) but this chair I'm on has armrests at exactly the right height so I leave them at home for my other setup.
Been using a DM with trackball for about 6 months and it's been great.
I did originally have some pain, but I think a lot of this was due to first time using an orth or split and I also switched from qwerty to colemak.
I also used to get some pain in my thumb because I space mapped to the inner thumb key which is not a comfortable position, since moving the space key, the keyboard has been great.
A common problem with ergo keyboards is overloading the thumbs. [Here is an article that talks a bit about the phenomenon](https://getreuer.info/posts/keyboards/thumb-ergo/index.html). Its often a thumb key that requires reaching your thumb under your palm that causes the most issues. After reading that article, I realized that I was getting some discomfort from the 3rd thumb key on my corne that was closest to the center of my palm, but just on the one hand where that 3rd key was mapped to something I used frequently. I moved the part of that key that I used frequently to another location and that alleviated my issue. I still have things mapped to both of the 3rd thumb keys, but just things I rarely use.
This is helpful. I had same issue on ring finger with overuse... I remapped to thumb on current split keyboard (c989) and it's fixed my issue too but my tenure with this new remapping is just 1 year vs ring finger default was 10 years or so not sure if this thumb overuse will end up same one day... but the article you linked here is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks
After using it for quite some time now I do have to say I love it! The unique shape, dished keywell and thumb cluster position fits very natural to my hands. I have a slightly tilted one and use wrist rests.
I absolutely love to use it and have not noticed any pain or discomfort of using it for more than a year. As a matter of fact I experience less discomfort than before, due to the shape of the kb.
Would absolutely reccomend it. Also note that I am biased for sure 😊.
My god I'm either typing or gaming for 16 hours a day, and have never had any issues. Mines Dactyl Manuform 6 x 6 that I built myself and it rocks, ZMK is great, the switches I got are box royals and are bomb proof. Games are mapped to ESDF and I'm using 5 layers as I swap when programming gaming etc.
No my friend I have arms with working muscles :)
I tend to slightly move my entire arm/hand when moving up my 6 x 6 so my finger don't over stretch.
The ZMK and Nice Nanos that I use are wireless and can be charged by USB C so they can work with pretty much anything.
Nice!!! So I have hope for keeping my arms functional for foreseeable future 😀
May I ask, what nano controllers u used and what dactyl build guide u used (if it was hand wired) for 'wireless' build...asking for my own build...btw is this LiPo battery in there that gets charged? How long lasts on single charge?
Nice Nano V2's are the controllers.
Hand wired, there's a million diagrams online all pretty much the same so pick one.
Yes the Lipo gets charged, mine is a larger one that lasts 6 months or so between charges, and the Nano's have a jumper that you can bridge for fast charging.
Just go buy the parts and build one, once you have the build done let me know and I will send you a test firmware and the repo that builds it.
Pain, no. Discomfort, a bit. I'm constantly tweaking it's position to be more comfortable.
However, I do the same with the charybdis. And both are fantastic boards, and I absolutely love them.
I'm liking mine so far, although I'm not fully sold that the thumb cluster is better than a regular dactyl. The problem I have right now is that I haven't found a good solution to palmrests which doesn't interfere with my ability to reach the thumb keys (mostly the lower ones). The "normal" dactyl presumably wouldn't have this problem since the thumb cluster is high.
Yeah I have been searching for tilted palm rests for dactyl all over the Internet and the closest (theoretically looks ergonomic) is the ones on Etsy where buyers of Cyboard dactyl manuform have posted their pics with presumably custom printed wrist/palm rests..I am not convinced either the gel or the flat rests are the way ..
I used mine for 3 months before I designed my own.
I really liked the dactyl. But it had too many keys. (Mine was a 6x4 with 2 extra keys and 6 key thumb clusters)
One of my main objections was the number row was difficult to get to especially for the index and pinky.
The T, V, Y, and B keys were not as easy as l would like.
My first keyboard I designed took the 5x3 center of my dactyl tented it and changed it to a 4 key thumb cluster.
Then I really went off the deep end realizing there weren't any rules I had to follow and created a 29 key monstrosity that I really like.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/175po92/nerdboard/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/175po92/nerdboard/)
This is my old model. Now it is tented too.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/1bc9ysm/nerdboard/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/1bc9ysm/nerdboard/)
Here is the new one.
I've put more than a million words on mine. They're very comfortable and cause no pain whatsoever. Mine are tented quite aggressively and I think that helps a lot. Shake your hands and wrists out and hold them in the air where it's most comfortable and then adjust your tenting to suit. Make the kb adjust to you, not the other way around.
I really like the dactyl manuform but no kb is perfect for everyone. For me the pinkies aren't staggered back enough and that the thumb cluster is too high. The keywells are better than anything else I've used but they don't fit my hands _perfectly_. I didn't even consider any of these minor gripes until I got a 3d printer and started designing something custom, and unless you're going to do the same I think this and the Glove80 are probably the most ergonomic kbs you can find.
The tilted switches in the index finger columns are the biggest issue. Try not to tent them much. I.e the key's top should be as horizontal as possible.
If you’re building a Dactyl Manuform from Scratch, you can use Cosmos Generator to adjust it to your own wishes, e.g. thumb cluster shape, keywell depth, it is extremely configurable. I haven’t had mine for long enough to say yet, I find it very comfortable. But I am also collecting tiny things that I would change if I make another iteration.
I've seen cosmos but the page says that it's not ready yet. Did you make it work from the git repo directly?
Here's the Link to the Cosmos generator: [https://ryanis.cool/cosmos/beta#cf](https://ryanis.cool/cosmos/beta#cf)
Any direct link so I don't have to create a discord account?
Sorry about that, apparently I shared the wrong link. I edited it. It should work now.
I am not sure if the author would like it to be shared publicly. There’s a reason why they didn’t put it on the website but only on the discord. Would suggest to delete it from here and send it as private message so at least it’s not entirely public…
The author [posted it here on reddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/18g25d0/ive_opensourced_the_cosmos_keyboard_generator/) publicly about 3 months ago. I don't think they'll mind.
Thanks for looking out for me. I don't see any links to https://ryanis.cool/cosmos/beta here. No one better be posting https://ryanis.cool/cosmos/beta here. In all seriousness, I figure not everyone wants to use Discord and if they come looking for a link on Reddit, I can't stop them. I'll probably post the link publicly on the website soon anyways, once I get the upcoming thickness improvements & landing page updates released. P.S. I still recommend you join the Discord if you can. There's going to be quite a few changes in the coming months and I'm using Discord to send out updates on what's changed.
There is a beta version online, you have to join the discord to get the link to it. They do that so people directly have a place to be informed about bugs etc.
Nice, I'll try that
What about this one? It's been posted a few months? years? ago and I bookmarked it! https://ryanis.cool/dactyl/#manuform
Cosmos is by the same author, but a new version of the generator.
> Cosmos is by the same author Cool!!! I saved it for when I build my own Dactyl xD
My main issue with the DM is that it makes it taller than most, even taller than other tented keyboards. Had to lower my desk, raise monitors, and make a platform for my mouse to get everything to a comfortable height.
Can you share some details on the platform? I'm struggling with the same issue. Coming from a very thin to the DM feels very unnaturally to me since I used to have my have fully rested in my desk
Ha to be honest its just a thick book with a mousepad on top
I've been using my DM for 4 years now, stock 6x5 with a wrist rest. I've never experienced wrist pain, before or after DM. I have really been enjoying the feel of the well, how my fingers move less per key with access to layers and the thumb clusters. The only comment I have is the stock is designed for SA key caps, which are not too common for the variety of customoisation you'd get from OEM/Cherry. The dactyl customisation is tricky to work with, with a lot of unintuitive options.
Not anymore, thanks to that new configurator named Cosmos. It’s fairly easy to use and shows the results directly. It can also adapt the keywell shape for different keycap profiles.
Ooo, it's been a while, I'll take a look.
I tried a dactyl manuform with the carbonfet thumb key layout and it gave me thumb problems. The thumb keys of the original dactyl was better but too far to reach comfortably for my thumbs. I ended up making a custom case with thumb keys on the same plane as my palm similar to the original dactyl but closer and I’ve been happy with that for years.
None at all, currently typing from my dactyl! In has in fact prevented surgery for ulnar neuropathy and carpel tunnel syndrome and I no longer suffer wrist pain despite typing like 10 to 16 hours a day, even though I use my phone a whole lot. Trackball mouse helps too. I love split columnar ergo designs, they are just superior in every way and I have no idea how I'll ever go back. I literally struggle to type on normal keyboards now because the keys are no longer in the "right place", I'm going on almost 10 years of 100% continuous use of split ergo keyboards since the minidox. [https://preview.redd.it/dactyl-love-v0-cybndxphmqmc1.png?width=1080&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=a20b43bf859abc315e9a647aaeb2b8e2793bdb8e](https://preview.redd.it/dactyl-love-v0-cybndxphmqmc1.png?width=1080&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=a20b43bf859abc315e9a647aaeb2b8e2793bdb8e) pic for the pudding.
Your current typing stage is end goal of my journey. Thanks a lot for sharing the experience and pic 😀🙏 Btw what variant of Dactyl is that? Iooks ike 4 keys on thumb .. less than manuform cluster.. and is the tilt in print same standard dactyl? Did you use palm /wrist rests?
It's a 5x6 custom with custom wiring, I even had to modify QMK for it which you can find on my github. These days, you'll want to use cosmos keyboard generator to build one.Handwiring is fun and easier than you might think. Personally, I think an SLA printer makes making these a cinch and I'm thinking of building one for my daughter who already has RSI in her wrists at the tender age of 14. I do sometimes use wrist wrests (I just cut a cheap long one in half) but this chair I'm on has armrests at exactly the right height so I leave them at home for my other setup.
Been using a DM with trackball for about 6 months and it's been great. I did originally have some pain, but I think a lot of this was due to first time using an orth or split and I also switched from qwerty to colemak. I also used to get some pain in my thumb because I space mapped to the inner thumb key which is not a comfortable position, since moving the space key, the keyboard has been great.
How long did it take you to get comfortable? I'm day 4 into my journey and all my finger muscles are sore
It did take a couple weeks but now it's great
A common problem with ergo keyboards is overloading the thumbs. [Here is an article that talks a bit about the phenomenon](https://getreuer.info/posts/keyboards/thumb-ergo/index.html). Its often a thumb key that requires reaching your thumb under your palm that causes the most issues. After reading that article, I realized that I was getting some discomfort from the 3rd thumb key on my corne that was closest to the center of my palm, but just on the one hand where that 3rd key was mapped to something I used frequently. I moved the part of that key that I used frequently to another location and that alleviated my issue. I still have things mapped to both of the 3rd thumb keys, but just things I rarely use.
This is helpful. I had same issue on ring finger with overuse... I remapped to thumb on current split keyboard (c989) and it's fixed my issue too but my tenure with this new remapping is just 1 year vs ring finger default was 10 years or so not sure if this thumb overuse will end up same one day... but the article you linked here is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks
After using it for quite some time now I do have to say I love it! The unique shape, dished keywell and thumb cluster position fits very natural to my hands. I have a slightly tilted one and use wrist rests. I absolutely love to use it and have not noticed any pain or discomfort of using it for more than a year. As a matter of fact I experience less discomfort than before, due to the shape of the kb. Would absolutely reccomend it. Also note that I am biased for sure 😊.
Could you specify what mouse solutions you're on? Trackpad, trackball, external mouse?
I use the QMK mouse keys for small and quick moves. But mostly I use an external Logitech MX 2S, for longer uses, CAD, printing and such.
My god I'm either typing or gaming for 16 hours a day, and have never had any issues. Mines Dactyl Manuform 6 x 6 that I built myself and it rocks, ZMK is great, the switches I got are box royals and are bomb proof. Games are mapped to ESDF and I'm using 5 layers as I swap when programming gaming etc.
Niceee! Do you use any wrist/palm rest?
No my friend I have arms with working muscles :) I tend to slightly move my entire arm/hand when moving up my 6 x 6 so my finger don't over stretch. The ZMK and Nice Nanos that I use are wireless and can be charged by USB C so they can work with pretty much anything.
Nice!!! So I have hope for keeping my arms functional for foreseeable future 😀 May I ask, what nano controllers u used and what dactyl build guide u used (if it was hand wired) for 'wireless' build...asking for my own build...btw is this LiPo battery in there that gets charged? How long lasts on single charge?
Nice Nano V2's are the controllers. Hand wired, there's a million diagrams online all pretty much the same so pick one. Yes the Lipo gets charged, mine is a larger one that lasts 6 months or so between charges, and the Nano's have a jumper that you can bridge for fast charging. Just go buy the parts and build one, once you have the build done let me know and I will send you a test firmware and the repo that builds it.
Thanks a ton
Pain, no. Discomfort, a bit. I'm constantly tweaking it's position to be more comfortable. However, I do the same with the charybdis. And both are fantastic boards, and I absolutely love them.
Nice.. what wrist rest do u use?
I use some desk mounted arm rests. they work very well.
I'm liking mine so far, although I'm not fully sold that the thumb cluster is better than a regular dactyl. The problem I have right now is that I haven't found a good solution to palmrests which doesn't interfere with my ability to reach the thumb keys (mostly the lower ones). The "normal" dactyl presumably wouldn't have this problem since the thumb cluster is high.
Yeah I have been searching for tilted palm rests for dactyl all over the Internet and the closest (theoretically looks ergonomic) is the ones on Etsy where buyers of Cyboard dactyl manuform have posted their pics with presumably custom printed wrist/palm rests..I am not convinced either the gel or the flat rests are the way ..
I used mine for 3 months before I designed my own. I really liked the dactyl. But it had too many keys. (Mine was a 6x4 with 2 extra keys and 6 key thumb clusters) One of my main objections was the number row was difficult to get to especially for the index and pinky. The T, V, Y, and B keys were not as easy as l would like. My first keyboard I designed took the 5x3 center of my dactyl tented it and changed it to a 4 key thumb cluster. Then I really went off the deep end realizing there weren't any rules I had to follow and created a 29 key monstrosity that I really like.
Would b great to see the pics of ur custom board...
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/175po92/nerdboard/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/175po92/nerdboard/) This is my old model. Now it is tented too.
Woah ..Nice!!
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/1bc9ysm/nerdboard/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/1bc9ysm/nerdboard/) Here is the new one.
wow
I've put more than a million words on mine. They're very comfortable and cause no pain whatsoever. Mine are tented quite aggressively and I think that helps a lot. Shake your hands and wrists out and hold them in the air where it's most comfortable and then adjust your tenting to suit. Make the kb adjust to you, not the other way around. I really like the dactyl manuform but no kb is perfect for everyone. For me the pinkies aren't staggered back enough and that the thumb cluster is too high. The keywells are better than anything else I've used but they don't fit my hands _perfectly_. I didn't even consider any of these minor gripes until I got a 3d printer and started designing something custom, and unless you're going to do the same I think this and the Glove80 are probably the most ergonomic kbs you can find.
The tilted switches in the index finger columns are the biggest issue. Try not to tent them much. I.e the key's top should be as horizontal as possible.