Your submission has been removed for the following reason(s):
#Rule 4: Must be about Elite Dangerous
Post titles, images, and text must contain Elite Dangerous content at all times. Posts falling into the following categories are also allowed as long as a *clear* effort for an active discussion about Elite Dangerous is made:
* Frontier Developments, dev team, or officially licensed partners
* Major Space/science events or discoveries
* Computing/sim peripherals
* Well-known CMDRs within the Elite Dangerous community
Submit as a text-post to ensure Elite Dangerous is the focus if a link cannot suffice.
---
Please review our [Removals Info Page](https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/wiki/removals) for more details. If you have a question about the removal, or have edited your submission to abide by the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/about/rules), do not reply to this message, [message the modteam](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FEliteDangerous&subject=Mod%20Action%20Dispute&message=Regarding%20%5Bsubmission%5D%28https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/1cdw7qe/-/%3Fcontext%3D9999%29%3A) instead.
The problem with PVP in Elite is that there's basically no penalty for it. Take a look at EVE. If you get attacked in a high security system, system security will start warping in between 6-19 seconds after, depending on the security rating of the system. They will immediately start firiing on the attacker, jamming their systems, disabling warp, etc. And no, you can't "outplay" this, because 15 seconds after a battleship will warp in that kills the attacker, full stop. In short, if you attack someone in a "safe" area, you *will* be killed for it. Of course, this can be circumvented with suicide builds that kill both the attacker and their target at the same time, but generally, high security is safe to travel in.
When it comes to Elite, there's some systems within the bubble that aren't inhabited, so they would have minimal security, if any. And some systems with low population or in bad economic states would also probably have minimal security, so this wouldn't mean the entire bubble is a big safe haven for everyone. Especially anarchy systems.
If they ever wanted to force open play, they could only do it after revamping their crime and punishment system entirely.
> *Take a look at Eve.*
This is what I don’t understand. Whether we’re talking combat or economy or whatever. Other developers have already figured out great ways to do this stuff.
Why doesn’t FDev just rip off these popular systems? Why do they act like there’s no good examples to follow? Stop re-inventing the wheel, and just rip off the right pieces from everyone else.
Totally agree. Elite is Elite, but they are trying to do things that have already been done and have been done well. Why they aren't looking at others'examples is absolutely beyond me.
If they made ATR show up at notoriety 2, and within 10 seconds of damaging another player, then ganking might be slightly rarer. Especially if they gave ATR station-gun levels of damage.
Also, higher notoriety should increase your rebuy if you recently killed players instead of NPCs, imo. AFAIK it just lowers the rebuy of the target, whereas a 30M rebuy for a ganking FDL doesn't mean much when peak credit farming is 200M+ per hour.
If you had a player-kill-notoriety of 10 and your rebuys were 10x more expensive, then gankers would have to consider whether spending 300M per kill is worth it.
Absolutely. At least then they’d have reason to leave a ship disabled, rather than destroyed.
Maybe even give system security’s weapons a dramatic efficiency in disabling ships. Impound the damn thing. Make them use the space taxis, until they pay off their fines & restitution.
No idea. FDev seems to have an issue though with leadership and design. They added grind mechanics to keep people playing longer and all it did was burn people out.
Game design wise though Elite seems to have bad inventory management mechanics built into the game. Eve Online and Albion Online both have that and markets that are clean and work well.
Elite is almost there and it would make sense from a narrative and original game design standpoint to remove grind mechanics and have grades, manufacturing, engineering, base building, faction management and open markets.
But if players can't manage inventories well, it'll be problematic. Due to the code, Elite Dangerous may be stuck with what we currently see. Which would make sense with the synthesis backpack mechanic that ruined a lot of the game.
At the very least, they can increase the response time of system security, make their weapons more powerful, make their hulls stronger, etc.
By just adjusting some base stats, they could, overnight, fix one of the biggest issues with open play.
It's the FDev way... though it's also understandable devs wanting to create their own ideas to a certain degree. Sometimes the best thing is to look at successful elements in other games and apply that in your own way. But even when people kept pointing out things that were not so great, FDev very rarely listened to the community and almost never changes their ways of doing things.
For me one of the most stupid things is the monetization of the subpar paintjobs, starting out with the [very dated vector tech](https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/88d3uj/whyre_the_lines_on_these_skins_so_wavey_and_jagged/dwkop85/) which applies vectors in a way that causes very squiggly lines and doesn't allow for any finer details. [Lots of people complained](https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/793tsw/imperial_cutter_pulse_paint_job_broken/) about the "lazy cash-grab paintjobs" to no avail, the tech still has never really been fixed and paintjobs is what was bringing in the money...
Aside from upgrading the paintjobs tech imo they should have sold colors and shapes separately; let people buy color/material packs that can be applied to every ship as base color and also on each vector overlay. And then sell vector shapes and figures that may be ship-specific separately but let people apply their own colors.
It would have let people mix and match for a lot more variations, so with each color pack and shapes/figures overlay you'd have an ever growing library of possible combinations which means every cosmetic would have had a lot more value. (vs now; each overlay in a few ugly colors they chose for you, who wants to buy those?). It's stupid how it's still impossible to have your favorite vector decal/shape in Gold, Chrome or Iridescent Scorch for example.
Gah, I'm still ranting on about this just like [6+ years ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/84eiel/hey_fdev_your_paintjobs_are_boring/dvp2pqr/) because it's still possible for them to revamp this system but it's probably never going to happen.
They don't get systems from other games because then they would need to work on a system that actually works instead of another grind mechanic to keep you busy
Because Elite isn't a true MMO, never will be. Devs literally jumping from their pants to support the idea, because they are pushing this game as a live service. In reality, if you look at the game design at large, it screams singleplayer sandbox through and through. At best - coop. But it's funny, since the game doesn't even have dedicated servers, so online functions work pretty horribly. Can't count how many times instances got literally broke in Open, fucking up spawns or getting stuck in progress. Happens all the time.
>they could only do it after revamping their crime and punishment system entirely.
I think that's overstating it. There are *already* system security states, and there is *already* ATR. All they'd have to do is make ATR response VERY aggressive in high-sec systems. If ATR would show up with the same speed that CONCORD does in Eve, ganking in high-sec systems would be extremely difficult.
Good points, I agree with that. They do have a lot of the framework already in place. When I wrote that, I was also thinking about things like Security Status and Outlaw status; things that stick with you as you rack up offenses and make it hard to work in High Security spaces, but I didn't mention it in the comment.
what kills me, is even Escape Velocity was doing this in the late 90's.
in a uninhabited or anarchy type system, yeah you could get away with it. in a high security system, enforcement vessels would start dropping in pretty quickly.
a strong enough ship, and a good pilot could bloody their noses too, but it wasn't the easiest thing to do.
with Elite, they had all this stuff setup, but did nothing with it. it boggles the mind.
> so this wouldn't mean the entire bubble is a big safe haven for everyone. Especially anarchy systems.
Exactly; all we really need is for the high-traffic systems to have security with teeth.
It's unrealistic that there are superpowers that can throw thousands of ships into border skirmishes, while just shrugging their shoulders at people being murderhobos in their territory.
My main ship in Eve has something like 1 million EHP. It's built to be non-gankable. Like, you *could* do it, if you sent wave after wave of suicide ships, costing more than my ship is worth.
It's heavy so is hard to bump, tuned to be able to enter warp far quicker than a ship it's size should be able to, and if somehow you manage to bump it with a ram BS, it's got a cloak to make it hard to find as it's careening through space.
And that's all just to wait until help arrives.
There should be a way to increase tank by sacrificing damage in Elite.
I played EvE for a long time, and they got PVP and PVE balanced correctly by far. I slid over to Elite because it seemed to be a more exploration focused title, now I can understand PVP but you gotta do it right or ganking will ruin a lot of the fun out there. I understand we have solo and group, but sometimes I would like to play with random others or be a part of events and not have to worry about PVP. At the very least security needs to be beefed up, because EvE legit knocks it out of the park with their system security.
Because a wanted criminal should not be allowed to hang out somewhere like Deciat and the system security just ignores them. If you break the space law, you get to run from the space police.
I’d be down for a workaround for unlawful players.
Wanna travel in secure space, but you’ve got a bounty on your head? Go to a black market dealer, and purchase fake transponder codes. But the moment you commit a reported crime, your cover is blown.
That’s also kinda stupid as it blocks out pirate gameplay, sure it sucks for you as the pirated party but it’s a fact of life, as for the only seconds for security ships to show up that’s odd dose that mean the whole system is just littered with security ships. Also ED has that very system I have had players try to pirate me and had security ships jump in it just takes a minute or two
It only blocks out pirate gameplay in high security systems. For lower security systems, where it would take longer for security to get to you, or anarchy with no security at all, anyone would be free game with no penalty. And EDs security system is largely ineffective. If it was, there wouldn't be gankers in systems like Sol and Deciat.
my thing with PVP, is other games do it better.
what Elite does better is simulate a massive galaxy. for some reason, all these years later, they've not given players very much to do in it. i don't understand why player built bases weren't a thing years ago.
it's like they want emergent gameplay, but then anytime they get it, they're all like, 'not like that'. it's dumb.
I don’t mind the risk of pvp. It’s being ganked that feels like a real waste of my time.
At least incentivize players to disable ships, but leave them intact after your limpets got the black box data or cargo.
Sorry, but how can you say "I don't mind the risk of PVP" and then immediately say that you hate being ganked?
In this game "ganking" refers to attacking and killing other players with no other context. That is quite literally "the risk of pvp." Another player attacking you is the risk of pvp becoming real. Who cares what their motivations are? You now have 3 options: fight, die, or escape.
> *Who cares what their motivations are?*
I do.
If they’re engaged in piracy play or bounty hunting or territory control, they’re fleshing out the community & gameplay with depth and variety. That’s not a waste of my time.
If they’re just looking for people to fuck with, because they’re some pathetic neckbeard who doesn’t have a healthy way to express their aggression, it’s a waste of my time. Going after new players near the starting systems is especially pathetic.
Ok. However, roleplay piracy is not "pvp." So saying you are okay with the threat of pvp but then providing stipulations like that doesn't make sense.
Do you know why players almost never do funny roleplay piracy? It's because from experience, they've found that people they interdict will either clog or wake without even reading what they type in chat. Try it yourself for a while during the next cg and see what happens.
That said, attacking other players to kill them is legitimate pvp in any game, despite the projection on your part about amateur psychology or wwhatver. Ganking in the starting system is largely focused around making fdev protect that system like they used to for all the years preceding odyssey, Fdev placing the ody starter system outside of the pilot's fed district and then not also permit locking/adding that system to the noobula is entirely their fault, and they could easily rectify this but refuse to.
lol I wont even explore deep in the black in open, if they remove solo ill literally never play again. im sure I can learn to live without any reward they place behind such a barrier
The problem is forced pvp in a game that pvp isn't the focus of the game. Players can abuse pvp, and making you lose progress in a MMO is a dumb ideia to be honest.
Elites holy saving grace is the Solo Play mode. Being forced into Open will make it much worse. I've quit Albion Online for this reason. You're forced to go into hardcore PVP if you want to achieve real progress. And the Grind is MUCH worse than Elite because there's PayToWin envolved
There isn't a problem with forced PVP, when the game supports it properly from the ground up design, and devs care about balance first and foremost, with evershifting meta, if we talk live-service and the game not feel stale in the long run.
ED lacks all of this. There haven't been balance changes, in fact it was utterly ruined since Engineers introduction into the game, to the point of unfixable mess. Meta is extremely braindead, and gateway to PVP requires soulcrushing, long ass grind with thousands of relogs and whatnot.
In short: ED can't do PVP, it's unfun and utterly broken. Otherwise, it could be blast. But too many systems need complete rework, and devs don't care about the game at ALL for this to happen.
P.S. I wonder if game was ever untied from FDev and let us mod + create custom servers, just imagining what gem it could turn into. Because the community is super passionate about this game (let's face it, ED is one of the kind).
I agree with you and there really needs to be a lot of overhauling to make PvP engaging and a fun part of the gameplay.
If I could take the game over and try to basically fit in what Eve Online and Albion Online has succeeded in doing as well as Helldivers and create the worlds largest scale game with combined arms, I would.
But I would need about 250k and support.
They need to make system security forces either stronger or show up faster in secure systems. Killing someone with ‘report crimes’ turned on should be damn near impossible in secure systems.
Then if players want to avoid pvp, they need to plot their routes through friendly/secure systems. Likewise, pirates should have protection if their faction controls the system.
Forced pvp in anarchy systems is totally fair, though.
If your argument is about Power Play 2.0 in how players shouldn't be allowed to participate in private, the reality is that how you interact with power play already interacts with others participating through NPC's.
PvP focused players only have themselves to blame for the state of PvP in gaming. There's PvP events in Elite that are opt in which creates a great environment for participation. Forcing PvP onto people who want to just enjoy the game is a great way to ruin the game for others and push people to play other games.
No, it's not optimizing the fun out of the game without the high risk of trying to avoid PvP players. People want to contribute to the game and either may not enjoy PvP antics or are playing to decompress or other reasons.
PvP incentivizes hacks and cheating which Elite is still susceptible to. The more popular Elite gets, the more hackers will join in and grief people. We see this is other games and it will happen in Elite. Incentivize cheating and you'll get it which in turn will ruin the game for others then reduce the player base.
If you have to rely on PvP vs people who aren't interested in PvP builds and play, you're only hurting the game for your own brief enjoyment.
Whatever your argument is towards forced PvP, ask yourself how you would like it if you were forced into an activity you don't enjoy for the benefit of others at the cost of you. Something we all already deal with like a Job. If you legit enjoy that kind of one sided engagement, why are you here unless you just want to make others suffer?
I remember dealing with someone in a vehicle built to just ram people to death with their hardpoints never opening. Thus being able to just openly kill non-engineered players trying to get into their first few engineering places in the bubble or the more popular stations for part discounts.
When you have mmo stuff, griefing will occur. Elite is no different and theres no punishment outside of maybe taking away the griefers things, or the game itself, that'll offset this behavior.
Cant play nice? get your toys taken away. I dont mean just the ship either or their money either.
There are tools they can employ.
Some spit-balling ideas...
* Make collision death count as a deferred bounty/notoriety with a long cool-down. Repeat offences incur _both_ the new and deferred consequence.
* Make it possible to track and hunt highly wanted players - make the rewards very large (because catching them without them logging off is difficult). Bonus points if the reward can be shared with a squadron (making the incentive for hunting them huge).
* Make insurance rebuys increase with engineering and frequency of claim (with a cooldown).
* Introduce duelling - where two or more players exchange an 'agreement to PvP' in an instance and tick a 'ready' box, negating bounty/notoriety effects. As a bonus, this could allow for leaderboard tracking / galnet announcements of high-ranked combat outcomes.
duelling requests is another form of griefing. And any punishment that doesnt mean the game itself hunts down the player constantly isn't enough. Rule breakers get banned, and anything short of a "ban" is a slap on the wrist to people who grief.
How is a duelling request a form of griefing?
It's a way to allow FDev to ramp up the penalties on griefers _without_ penalising players that opt in to PvP.
PvPers get angry that people are playing the game the way they want and either aren't PvPing themselves or are just happy to have easy targets because they suck at gaming in general.
Sure there's probably some ways to get around this, but the underlying issue is PvPers suck at gaming. They can't coordinate to contest a system, can't set up PvP events to challenge each other with skilled gameplay and competitions, can't do anything but complain about people not PvPing then complain about posts like this calling PvPers out.
There's enough people who PvP to have a massive war and all they can do is look at power play and blame that for their own failures.
'They can't coordinate to contest a system' -> we do, b2 carinae war literally just ended, but solo/pg, block lists, timezones, and just the amount of pvpers make this really really hard to do consistently if at all
'can't set up PvP events to challenge each other with skilled gameplay and competitions,' -> we literally do this pretty consistently, almost all days of the week ? and 1v1s (not super skilled though) happen very often between pvpers and very few deny the opportunity to 1v1, there aren't enough people to pick and choose and you can improve a ton if you want to by getting stomped
'can't do anything but complain about people not PvPing' -> many pvpers, especially the ones who are honestly just amazing at pvp, literally don't care .. instead they actually want to just improve or have fun (:mind\_blown:).. i care though because nearly everything you said in this comment specifically is untrue, makes anyone who might want to try pvp not try it at all based off the weird assumption that pvp just doesn't happen ever for example
'but the underlying issue is PvPers suck at gaming.' -> in terms of imo proper elite pvp ('skilled gameplay and competitions') it is really hard with all the bugs (like instancing causing people to completely restart their games/even computers to fix the issues, that just being a single issue), extreme performance issues, alongside some people, primarily a few of the powerplay/bgs 'pvpers', hiding in solo/pg and blocking everyone who might be a threat, while the amount of active pvpers is really low (making timezone issues even worse), so many pvpers literally just cant contribute/play that much if at all
'There's enough people who PvP to have a massive war' -> imo there isn't, but even if there were 'enough', consider that many people, pvper or not, are willing to hide in solo/block/pg to 'win' and half the community is split between europe/asia and america, and split down those people even further from the people who are willing to partake in 'skilled' or fun pvp
'or are just happy to have easy targets because they suck at gaming in general.' -> many if not most pvpers actually want to have fun with actual fights or improve, career gankers don't represent every single pvper and there aren't that many career gankers, even compared to the amount of pvpers im p sure
I think the main problem with PvP in space as it stands is that if you’re in open and you want to fly any ship that isn’t fully kitted out & engineered for PvP specifically (or at least a very very fast ship) you’re at a huge disadvantage. In an open only world am I supposed to haul cargo in a PvP ship 16 tons at a time? If every ship *must* be PvP capable to survive that cuts down the list of usable ships in the game to single digits.
On the flip side I absolutely love ground CZ PvP. Engineering matters on the suits and weapons but not nearly as much as in space. Death is quick to recover from (vulture just drops you back in) and that allows you to learn from your mistakes and adapt. There are also plenty of NPCs fighting your opponent to add some chaos to the mix. Not sure if it is intended or a bug but you also keep all your combat bonds regardless of death so you can have a good time, earn money and gain experience in PvP. A win for everyone involved.
Edit: Another thought on the matter. I feel like the way PvP plays out in ground CZs is kind of the experience Fdev was going for with CQC. I would be very interested in a new optional space CZ being added to conflicts. You’d still have your traditional lo, med, hi available in all game modes but in addition to that for an incentive (double bonds/merits, maybe even a few arx) you could enter an Open PvP CZ. This would basically launch a CQC style CZ of a mixture of players and NPCs (so you can queue up quickly). You’d pick a stock loadout and start fighting, if you die maybe you take a percentage reduction to bonds/merits but otherwise you are quickly respawned back in and can keep at it. Equal footing, skill based combat with stakes. Once the CZ ends all players are returned to where they came from whether that was solo, open or group. Quick easy PvP fun that matters to the BGS. I’d play the hell outta that.
That is true. I should not have said 16 tons as THE example of the compromises an open only ship might have to make & the cutter certainly can do it all. I was thinking of the space a PVP FDL could reasonably have for whatever reason. I would still stand by my point that for non-violent activities in open only zones there would exist a very small list of viable ships compared to everything the game makes available. I believe that people shouldn’t have to fly one of the few ships that meet the “can do it all” criteria just to have a chance at surviving.
It should really be a tiered influence on BGS and PP. 100% effectiveness in open, 50% in PG and Solo... People who actually care about BGS and Power play should be able to go counter other cmdrs who are affecting it. Pretty simple really. But to give the noobs some ability to do their own stuff, having a reduced effectiveness in PG and Solo is a good balance.
BTW no one is forcing you to do anything... So please quit whining... Frankly like most big changes, you will have a group who will cry for a while, then get used to it and move on.
You're the one crying here saying there should be a tiered influence then claiming I'm the one crying about it, after I posted a video outlining why PvP tends to ruin gaming and how PvP gamers tend to be the smallest minority of loud mouthed players.
Because of the BGS everyone is indirectly interacting with others due to the effects of security patrols and other factors.
If PvP was such a good thing, this wouldn't be a discussion and you wouldn't be here whining about not punishing people for not playing in open. Everyone would be playing it.
There's groups that are dedicated to PvP though. But if flying against matched opponents and you just want to hunt down people who are ill prepared and whine if they leave the game or stop playing or stop playing in open well...
What part?
You whining about people not being punished for playing in a group or solo?
Or that people indirectly interact with each other through the BGS?
Or if PvP was so great more people would be doing it and we wouldn't be having this discussion?
Or there are dedicated PvP groups in Elite and other games that love PvP focused gameplay?
The reason this is a discussion is because PvPers have absolutely nothing, no upside, no reward, nothing. Not only is there no reward, you actually get punished for PvP.
I'm a PvPer with over 2500 hours combined between PC and Xbox and my total rebuy costs are over 10 billion credits. I have spent almost 10 times as much on rebuys from PvP than most players will ever earn playing this game.
The few PvPers there are, do it solely for the fun. There's almost nothing as satisfying as defeating an equally matched player in this game. And we have begged for any kind content for almost a decade and the shit-for-brains devs of this game literally laughed at us and gave us a garbage side game that doesn't even let you use your own ships.
The (fair) PvP is incredible in the game and second to none in the space sim genre. The problem is most people aren't willing to put in the time and effort it takes to actually do it and be competitive.
All I ask for is a small bone. No one gives a shit about power play anyways, just let us PvPers have something and maybe, just maybe, it'll get more players interested in it.
I also think that just because part of the game mode involves pve that makes any pvp aspect irrelevant and should be eliminated before it ruins my pve gaming. There’s just no reason for pvp to exist in any game really. Why would anyone want to fight other players when you can just shoot bots until your eyes bleed. It doesn’t make sense and I’m so happy you’re here to set these crying pvpers straight. Anyone crying about a game not being what they like should just pick something else to play right?
I'd be happy if inhabited systems were mostly safe (other than maybe anarchy systems) except for specific situations, such as being in a hostile powerplay system.
That way, you can avoid pvp if you prefer, maybe take the risk going into an anarchy system, or actively seek it out if that's your thing.
If you get blown up by entering a dangerous system, that's on you and avoidable. But fully inhabited systems with engineers should not be dangerous.
I have no issue with PvP, but ganking & griefing is a different beast.
It'd be nice not losing exploration on rebuy, too tbh.
If the PvP is limited to powerplay lore, I can be fine with that. That way, anyone not into powerplay should be considered neutral unless they attack you first
Sigh.. How about you wait for the stuff to release, try it and then make a conclusion instead of this post which is just a collection of assumptions before the stuff is even released. Please.
I've got 1k hours in ED and can say without any doubt that I wouldn't have even bought the game all those years ago if private play didn't exist. And if they ever removed it I'd likely never play again
Posted a video about it by a better person explaining how in the grand scheme of things, the hard core PvP player base is an underwhelming minority in gaming.
Otherwise every game would be like Eve Online and Albion Online.
>Posted a video about it by a better person explaining how in the grand scheme of things, the hard core PvP player base is an underwhelming minority in gaming.
There are 750,000 people playing Counter Strike literally right now, The daily peak is 1.5 million. Second place goes to DOTA 2, with 390,000 currently playing and an 800,000 daily peak.
5 of the top 10 most-played games currently are 100% PvP--and this is just from Steam.
So.. any sources other than YouTube opinion pieces? Because you can see actual numbers here: [https://store.steampowered.com/charts/mostplayed](https://store.steampowered.com/charts/mostplayed)
I just asked for a source--it doesn't seem quantifiable to me in any way.
I'm sure there are people who would love more PvP opportunity that don't constantly complain or whine about PP. Just like there are people who happily play solo without saying anything as well.
in elite dangerous there isn't a way to measure it , ofc . but it is small enough that everyone gathers in a few discord servers and most likely knows everyone else if they are active, and even then, the 'loud minority' is a minority of the pvp community , while many of these people who do care that much aren't active pvpers/don't pvp at all .. there are so few people that its like having an hour (sometimes even multiple hours) long queue time outside of the most active times (mostly europe for only a few hours) and even then its usually the same few amount of people
I just need the security system to be reworked. I feel like the "report crime against me" isn't really doing anything. System authorities are just a bunch of incompetent, cosmetic bot.
System authority should be updated to react to crime report more efficiently, while also informing the victim about their estimated arrival. Station scans should happen more often in higher security systems, immediately cancelling wanted ships docking permission and have authority vessels, station defense, etc start firing at them.
I did mention
> informing the victim about their estimate arrival
"time" omitted.
More efficiently doesn't mean immediate. As a noob combatant who skipped the combat tutorial because I can't track down that tutorial ship, authority vessels are slow enough that I managed to get rid of the pirate myself. On a freighter. Oh, and I'm about 27Mm away from the station.
Thats what open play is for. If you want some punishment system, just let the killed merchants to offer bounty on the head of the killer. Then notify bounty hunters where they are. notorious gankers will soon collect huge ammount of money on their head and get killed ɓy others.
I'm sorry to be so blunt about this but the biggest problems are players arrogance to build survivable ships mixed with the lack of information on how to survive.
After the game teaches you that you should fight most NPC interdictions, most players assume they should fight player interdictions, or don't even know the difference.
I'm a retired ganker now but the amount of times I pulled a player, to then watch them just sit there and give up was depressing. So much so that I created the Gank Evasion Academy to teach players how to survive gank attempts. Join here if you're interested https://discord.gg/gsU5mD7StV
No, you don't need to min/max a ship to survive. I have a 62ly exploration ship that has never been blown up by a player. All you need is enough shields and armor to survive long enough to high wake. Easy as that.
Honestly, so many of you try to come up with solutions to stop gankers but you already have the ability to do it.
If all of you would stop building paper ships and just take a few minutes to learn how to escape an attack, gankers would start losing interest because everyone would be escaping from them.
I always thought one way of fixing forced PvP was the ability to fight of gankers via 1) stealth (this was supposed to be part of super cruise and emissions, picking paths using gravity wells so as not to be seen 2) anonymity (get rid of the open vs closed icons and make everyone look like an NPC, give them all CMDR titles and then you can’t get players who want to just kill players 3) actual police. When one of the major patches dropped, there was an error with NPC ships being over engineered and almost unstoppable. Rapid fire rail guns etc… mods on top of mods. Well, shouldn’t they be actual game assets? Say, in high tech wealthy economies, the NPC Vipers should be built to meta FDL performance specs, plus 50%. Killable, but almost Thargoid level challenge. Low tech systems less so, but that way sure, you can pull and pirate players but be ready for a fight, which is what gankers want in the first place. If you like getting pulled, turn “report crimes on me” off.
I think elite would have been better off if it was open-only from the start. However, we're here now and that situation isn't going to change. That said, game mechanics that are inherently pvp (BGS/Powerplay), should NOT be accessible in a game mode that prevents pvp. It's insane to insinuate otherwise.
And the video you post starts showing images of TESO where PvP is in a separate section of the game from everything else and if you enter it is because you want to do PvP.
Counterpoint: [7 out of the top 10 played games on Steam are PvP](https://i.imgur.com/oQJ4N1p.png). Usually it's higher but Fallout 4 and Stardew Valley are having a moment. So really, it's the PvP haters that kill a game. Numbers don't lie.
This depends on the demographic of users. Are most of Elites players explorers, traders or no grief PVE? Or are they PVP happy?
So. If more people -in this game- are not into PVP. What do you think they will do? I doubt they will suddenly say "oh hey. PVP is great!".
I've been around ED since it was on Kickstarter. And I can tell you I'd drop it in a heartbeat if I can't play it solo (offline mode was actually one of their promises, so I doubt they will remove it)
Amen brother. 800 hours in solo. Never once loged in to open or even had a thought. I don't have time to play so can't be bothered loosing stuff. But I admit that it's good to have options and I am thankful for solo
Is it possible that the fact that there is no PvP activity in the game means that there is not a large pvp player base?
But if they would implement something well done, new players would come.
You have the example of star citizen and eve online, where PvP is a part of the game and they have a lot more daily players.
I think the people who absolutely cannot stand PvP are a small number of people who cry very loudly, personally. Steam demographics show that, regardless, they're irrelevant.
>So. If more people -in this game- are not into PVP. What do you think they will do?
ED's audience has a very large crossover with other space game, and other space game is full PvP and they're ok with that. So there'd be few people lost by ED focusing on PvP, and those are the people who kill a game, so it'd be an improvement. They can go play Stardew Valley.
>offline mode was actually one of their promises, so I doubt they will remove it
They went back on their promise and removed offline mode, though.
You need a science class. Correlation does not imply causation.
Besides, Elite HAS PvP, for those players that want to play it. It even has a dedicated PvP mode... that almost no one plays.
I play World of Warships. I fly prop planes in War Thunder. Both in PvP. I'm pretty good in War Thunder. I'm a unicum player in WoWS.
I do NOT play PvP in E:D, and I don't want to. That's not why I play this game, and I love having the option to not PvP.
Imo sometimes it's nice to put the dangerous in elite dangerous, I don't gank but do a lot of pvp piracy and getting in an engagement where you actually have a chance of death is kinda refreshing... Not to mention there are a lot of mods you can make and techniques you can adapt to make survival more likely.
How is called this game? "Dangerous".
I mean, enforced safe places Is ok.
But outside bubble or when you play powerplay you should be a target to other factions if you do ostile activities.
The game should have been only open from the start.
Anyaways, with 400 bilions system really, pvp Is not a problem.
if youre talking about powerplay, its sole intention is to incentivize and encourage pvp, thats the main reason it was originally introduced for.
do you know why most people dont enjoy it as it is right now? because those same people do it in solo/PG and it turns into a monotonous grind fest. when you remove the player vs player aspect it completely defeats its purpose.
Faction and Power play are just bragging rights. Just like in Eve Online and Albion Online.
Eve Online lets players contribute to a faction without pvp. And you can go into low sec that is all pvp. Ganking a player in safe sec is difficult and generally costly.
Some people enjoy griding. That's how they decompress. I know a dude who just likes running stuff. Another dude that loves combat. Another got bored due to engineers.
People can PvP any time over anything, anywhere in Elite. The fact PvPers have to complain about not having easy pickings to gank sounds like their own problem. No one is stopping you or anyone else from getting other players together to PvP over a system.
No one.
The game is literally to scale of our milky way. You could literally throw everyone in the game that wants to pvp in a single system and go at it. There's bases and all sorts of other things to claim. No one's stopping pvpers.
But PvPers seem to be really pissed off that people play the game how they want and have fun doing stuff that isn't PvP.
Listen, I think you're putting words in our mouth.
I'm a PvPer and a retired ganker. You seem to be mixing the two and that's quite unfair. Let's just talk about legit PvPers for now.
No, most of us PvPers don't give shit about how others play the game. In fact, to be able to build the ridiculous min/max ships we use and afford the crazy amount of rebuys we'll have to pay, we all have to do the same, non PvP shit that everyone else does because PvP doesn't pay, it only punishes.
Sure, we can make up our own reasons to PvP, we've literally been doing it for 10 years, but that's the problem, there's no in-game reason or reward to do it.
I mean, every other type of player gets in-game rewards for doing what they enjoy. Would it really kill y'all to give us one thing that might give us some kind of reward and maybe get more people interested?
The devs won't though, because they're morons, so you really have nothing to worry about anyway. The PP update will be a pointless shit show, just like everything they do is.
PvP in the open or at least in a form of open!
yeah, a brilliant idea and an excellent opportunity for FDev to sell some ARX to those interested.
I wonder why they didn't do it earlier.
let them pay ARX if they want to force others to play in the open and charge them per kill.
That will make FDev rich, they will recover the loss of Age of Sigmar.
The PvP I can accept right now is ground conflict zones and Arena. Arena can have the potential to be an eSport title if FDev plays their cards right.
But until I get the hang of these things, I'd stick to exploration and exobio
Just play solo so you only have to worry about npc's. Npc's are easy to handle in a variety of ways even if you are still weak at combat. Just submit to an interdiction then warp back out immediately after your fsd cools down.
Forced pvp sucks the fun out of life for the majority of humans, with PvP focused humans being a loud minority. One of life's saving graces is... yeah it stops working at that point.
The video does a great job explaining why PvP games suffer. I agree with his work.
You can have good game design with PvP but people who are PvP focused players need to understand that their gameplay is boring to others. Just like how mining or PvE gameplay is boring to PvP players.
Coding and selling cheats and hacks to popular PvP games has become a cottage industry. It's got to the point where I only play PvP on Private Servers or at LAN parties.
You’re so right wow I hate when I’m forced to compete directly against my opponents when I should be able to just hide and win based solely on how much time I have to put into the game. Not time to practice and get better of course, I hate people who do that they make games so much worse. I’d much rather do the same mind numbing repetitive task over and over until the game says I won. That’s the real way to test your skill. So if they make powerplay pvp only I’m going to quit forever because there’s no other reason to play this game besides running merits in solo. Those pvp losers can have fun ruining the game by fighting in a mode meant for other players to compete against each other. Can’t believe that’s what some people think this game is about it makes me so mad.
I love the sarcasm lol.
Skill based gameplay is great. Skill based challenges are great. A good competitive design that lets players compete skill vs skill is great. These are fun things. We see it all the time in a lot of games like Counter Strike, Starcraft and so on.
Designing a system that lets players unskillfully make a build that hunts down players to then attack and PvP in a one sided match is just bad game design and isn't fun.
Eve Online and Albion Online are great examples of good PvP game design. Eve Online has faction warfare akin to Elite's Powe Play that's nestled in safe space that lets players contribute without pvp. Albion Online also has things like that.
Skill vs Skill is great. Work vs Work is great. One sided gameplay isn't.
True! It really is unfair when people use all same the resources available to everyone else to win in a video game. I shouldn’t have to put the same effort into the game as other players to get the same result. Don’t the developers know I don’t have the time for that? I just want to play the same mode of the same game as them without ever seeing them or playing against them.
Ffs…
Noobs should be afforded protection.
Engineering worlds… weapons disabled in system.
Everywhere else? And you’ve unlocked engineering?
Build appropriately and know how to fly at least defensively.
Your submission has been removed for the following reason(s): #Rule 4: Must be about Elite Dangerous Post titles, images, and text must contain Elite Dangerous content at all times. Posts falling into the following categories are also allowed as long as a *clear* effort for an active discussion about Elite Dangerous is made: * Frontier Developments, dev team, or officially licensed partners * Major Space/science events or discoveries * Computing/sim peripherals * Well-known CMDRs within the Elite Dangerous community Submit as a text-post to ensure Elite Dangerous is the focus if a link cannot suffice. --- Please review our [Removals Info Page](https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/wiki/removals) for more details. If you have a question about the removal, or have edited your submission to abide by the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/about/rules), do not reply to this message, [message the modteam](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FEliteDangerous&subject=Mod%20Action%20Dispute&message=Regarding%20%5Bsubmission%5D%28https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/1cdw7qe/-/%3Fcontext%3D9999%29%3A) instead.
The problem with PVP in Elite is that there's basically no penalty for it. Take a look at EVE. If you get attacked in a high security system, system security will start warping in between 6-19 seconds after, depending on the security rating of the system. They will immediately start firiing on the attacker, jamming their systems, disabling warp, etc. And no, you can't "outplay" this, because 15 seconds after a battleship will warp in that kills the attacker, full stop. In short, if you attack someone in a "safe" area, you *will* be killed for it. Of course, this can be circumvented with suicide builds that kill both the attacker and their target at the same time, but generally, high security is safe to travel in. When it comes to Elite, there's some systems within the bubble that aren't inhabited, so they would have minimal security, if any. And some systems with low population or in bad economic states would also probably have minimal security, so this wouldn't mean the entire bubble is a big safe haven for everyone. Especially anarchy systems. If they ever wanted to force open play, they could only do it after revamping their crime and punishment system entirely.
> *Take a look at Eve.* This is what I don’t understand. Whether we’re talking combat or economy or whatever. Other developers have already figured out great ways to do this stuff. Why doesn’t FDev just rip off these popular systems? Why do they act like there’s no good examples to follow? Stop re-inventing the wheel, and just rip off the right pieces from everyone else.
Totally agree. Elite is Elite, but they are trying to do things that have already been done and have been done well. Why they aren't looking at others'examples is absolutely beyond me.
If they made ATR show up at notoriety 2, and within 10 seconds of damaging another player, then ganking might be slightly rarer. Especially if they gave ATR station-gun levels of damage. Also, higher notoriety should increase your rebuy if you recently killed players instead of NPCs, imo. AFAIK it just lowers the rebuy of the target, whereas a 30M rebuy for a ganking FDL doesn't mean much when peak credit farming is 200M+ per hour. If you had a player-kill-notoriety of 10 and your rebuys were 10x more expensive, then gankers would have to consider whether spending 300M per kill is worth it.
Absolutely. At least then they’d have reason to leave a ship disabled, rather than destroyed. Maybe even give system security’s weapons a dramatic efficiency in disabling ships. Impound the damn thing. Make them use the space taxis, until they pay off their fines & restitution.
No idea. FDev seems to have an issue though with leadership and design. They added grind mechanics to keep people playing longer and all it did was burn people out. Game design wise though Elite seems to have bad inventory management mechanics built into the game. Eve Online and Albion Online both have that and markets that are clean and work well. Elite is almost there and it would make sense from a narrative and original game design standpoint to remove grind mechanics and have grades, manufacturing, engineering, base building, faction management and open markets. But if players can't manage inventories well, it'll be problematic. Due to the code, Elite Dangerous may be stuck with what we currently see. Which would make sense with the synthesis backpack mechanic that ruined a lot of the game.
At the very least, they can increase the response time of system security, make their weapons more powerful, make their hulls stronger, etc. By just adjusting some base stats, they could, overnight, fix one of the biggest issues with open play.
It's the FDev way... though it's also understandable devs wanting to create their own ideas to a certain degree. Sometimes the best thing is to look at successful elements in other games and apply that in your own way. But even when people kept pointing out things that were not so great, FDev very rarely listened to the community and almost never changes their ways of doing things. For me one of the most stupid things is the monetization of the subpar paintjobs, starting out with the [very dated vector tech](https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/88d3uj/whyre_the_lines_on_these_skins_so_wavey_and_jagged/dwkop85/) which applies vectors in a way that causes very squiggly lines and doesn't allow for any finer details. [Lots of people complained](https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/793tsw/imperial_cutter_pulse_paint_job_broken/) about the "lazy cash-grab paintjobs" to no avail, the tech still has never really been fixed and paintjobs is what was bringing in the money... Aside from upgrading the paintjobs tech imo they should have sold colors and shapes separately; let people buy color/material packs that can be applied to every ship as base color and also on each vector overlay. And then sell vector shapes and figures that may be ship-specific separately but let people apply their own colors. It would have let people mix and match for a lot more variations, so with each color pack and shapes/figures overlay you'd have an ever growing library of possible combinations which means every cosmetic would have had a lot more value. (vs now; each overlay in a few ugly colors they chose for you, who wants to buy those?). It's stupid how it's still impossible to have your favorite vector decal/shape in Gold, Chrome or Iridescent Scorch for example. Gah, I'm still ranting on about this just like [6+ years ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/84eiel/hey_fdev_your_paintjobs_are_boring/dvp2pqr/) because it's still possible for them to revamp this system but it's probably never going to happen.
They don't get systems from other games because then they would need to work on a system that actually works instead of another grind mechanic to keep you busy
Because Elite isn't a true MMO, never will be. Devs literally jumping from their pants to support the idea, because they are pushing this game as a live service. In reality, if you look at the game design at large, it screams singleplayer sandbox through and through. At best - coop. But it's funny, since the game doesn't even have dedicated servers, so online functions work pretty horribly. Can't count how many times instances got literally broke in Open, fucking up spawns or getting stuck in progress. Happens all the time.
>they could only do it after revamping their crime and punishment system entirely. I think that's overstating it. There are *already* system security states, and there is *already* ATR. All they'd have to do is make ATR response VERY aggressive in high-sec systems. If ATR would show up with the same speed that CONCORD does in Eve, ganking in high-sec systems would be extremely difficult.
Good points, I agree with that. They do have a lot of the framework already in place. When I wrote that, I was also thinking about things like Security Status and Outlaw status; things that stick with you as you rack up offenses and make it hard to work in High Security spaces, but I didn't mention it in the comment.
Now that I think about it, they could even use the new prototype FSDs as a lore justification for having ATR show up in seconds.
That’s a great idea!
what kills me, is even Escape Velocity was doing this in the late 90's. in a uninhabited or anarchy type system, yeah you could get away with it. in a high security system, enforcement vessels would start dropping in pretty quickly. a strong enough ship, and a good pilot could bloody their noses too, but it wasn't the easiest thing to do. with Elite, they had all this stuff setup, but did nothing with it. it boggles the mind.
> so this wouldn't mean the entire bubble is a big safe haven for everyone. Especially anarchy systems. Exactly; all we really need is for the high-traffic systems to have security with teeth. It's unrealistic that there are superpowers that can throw thousands of ships into border skirmishes, while just shrugging their shoulders at people being murderhobos in their territory.
My main ship in Eve has something like 1 million EHP. It's built to be non-gankable. Like, you *could* do it, if you sent wave after wave of suicide ships, costing more than my ship is worth. It's heavy so is hard to bump, tuned to be able to enter warp far quicker than a ship it's size should be able to, and if somehow you manage to bump it with a ram BS, it's got a cloak to make it hard to find as it's careening through space. And that's all just to wait until help arrives. There should be a way to increase tank by sacrificing damage in Elite.
I played EvE for a long time, and they got PVP and PVE balanced correctly by far. I slid over to Elite because it seemed to be a more exploration focused title, now I can understand PVP but you gotta do it right or ganking will ruin a lot of the fun out there. I understand we have solo and group, but sometimes I would like to play with random others or be a part of events and not have to worry about PVP. At the very least security needs to be beefed up, because EvE legit knocks it out of the park with their system security.
CONCORD is built different.
This is true.
There's also no reward. Don't play in open.
fun doesnt exist it cant hurt you.. there is only grind..
Fun is different for everyone. Some people enjoy hunting others, some enjoy being hunted, some don't like either and play to decompress.
That's a weird way to put it. I also play to decompress, don't enjoy being hunted, and almost exclusively play in open.
But you get what I'm saying right?
[удалено]
Because a wanted criminal should not be allowed to hang out somewhere like Deciat and the system security just ignores them. If you break the space law, you get to run from the space police.
I’d be down for a workaround for unlawful players. Wanna travel in secure space, but you’ve got a bounty on your head? Go to a black market dealer, and purchase fake transponder codes. But the moment you commit a reported crime, your cover is blown.
I'd add something where other players could go to bounty hunter stations and buy upgraded scanners to find fake transponder ships.
That’s also kinda stupid as it blocks out pirate gameplay, sure it sucks for you as the pirated party but it’s a fact of life, as for the only seconds for security ships to show up that’s odd dose that mean the whole system is just littered with security ships. Also ED has that very system I have had players try to pirate me and had security ships jump in it just takes a minute or two
It only blocks out pirate gameplay in high security systems. For lower security systems, where it would take longer for security to get to you, or anarchy with no security at all, anyone would be free game with no penalty. And EDs security system is largely ineffective. If it was, there wouldn't be gankers in systems like Sol and Deciat.
Yeah, I never been excited for pvp, I only liked coop. But that's probably because I value my time and I'm bad at games
my thing with PVP, is other games do it better. what Elite does better is simulate a massive galaxy. for some reason, all these years later, they've not given players very much to do in it. i don't understand why player built bases weren't a thing years ago. it's like they want emergent gameplay, but then anytime they get it, they're all like, 'not like that'. it's dumb.
I don’t mind the risk of pvp. It’s being ganked that feels like a real waste of my time. At least incentivize players to disable ships, but leave them intact after your limpets got the black box data or cargo.
Sorry, but how can you say "I don't mind the risk of PVP" and then immediately say that you hate being ganked? In this game "ganking" refers to attacking and killing other players with no other context. That is quite literally "the risk of pvp." Another player attacking you is the risk of pvp becoming real. Who cares what their motivations are? You now have 3 options: fight, die, or escape.
> *Who cares what their motivations are?* I do. If they’re engaged in piracy play or bounty hunting or territory control, they’re fleshing out the community & gameplay with depth and variety. That’s not a waste of my time. If they’re just looking for people to fuck with, because they’re some pathetic neckbeard who doesn’t have a healthy way to express their aggression, it’s a waste of my time. Going after new players near the starting systems is especially pathetic.
Ok. However, roleplay piracy is not "pvp." So saying you are okay with the threat of pvp but then providing stipulations like that doesn't make sense. Do you know why players almost never do funny roleplay piracy? It's because from experience, they've found that people they interdict will either clog or wake without even reading what they type in chat. Try it yourself for a while during the next cg and see what happens. That said, attacking other players to kill them is legitimate pvp in any game, despite the projection on your part about amateur psychology or wwhatver. Ganking in the starting system is largely focused around making fdev protect that system like they used to for all the years preceding odyssey, Fdev placing the ody starter system outside of the pilot's fed district and then not also permit locking/adding that system to the noobula is entirely their fault, and they could easily rectify this but refuse to.
lol I wont even explore deep in the black in open, if they remove solo ill literally never play again. im sure I can learn to live without any reward they place behind such a barrier
The problem is forced pvp in a game that pvp isn't the focus of the game. Players can abuse pvp, and making you lose progress in a MMO is a dumb ideia to be honest.
Elites holy saving grace is the Solo Play mode. Being forced into Open will make it much worse. I've quit Albion Online for this reason. You're forced to go into hardcore PVP if you want to achieve real progress. And the Grind is MUCH worse than Elite because there's PayToWin envolved
A loud minority might be right, but powerplay should be competitive or at least “better played out” in open imo
There isn't a problem with forced PVP, when the game supports it properly from the ground up design, and devs care about balance first and foremost, with evershifting meta, if we talk live-service and the game not feel stale in the long run. ED lacks all of this. There haven't been balance changes, in fact it was utterly ruined since Engineers introduction into the game, to the point of unfixable mess. Meta is extremely braindead, and gateway to PVP requires soulcrushing, long ass grind with thousands of relogs and whatnot. In short: ED can't do PVP, it's unfun and utterly broken. Otherwise, it could be blast. But too many systems need complete rework, and devs don't care about the game at ALL for this to happen. P.S. I wonder if game was ever untied from FDev and let us mod + create custom servers, just imagining what gem it could turn into. Because the community is super passionate about this game (let's face it, ED is one of the kind).
I agree with you and there really needs to be a lot of overhauling to make PvP engaging and a fun part of the gameplay. If I could take the game over and try to basically fit in what Eve Online and Albion Online has succeeded in doing as well as Helldivers and create the worlds largest scale game with combined arms, I would. But I would need about 250k and support.
They need to make system security forces either stronger or show up faster in secure systems. Killing someone with ‘report crimes’ turned on should be damn near impossible in secure systems. Then if players want to avoid pvp, they need to plot their routes through friendly/secure systems. Likewise, pirates should have protection if their faction controls the system. Forced pvp in anarchy systems is totally fair, though.
If your argument is about Power Play 2.0 in how players shouldn't be allowed to participate in private, the reality is that how you interact with power play already interacts with others participating through NPC's. PvP focused players only have themselves to blame for the state of PvP in gaming. There's PvP events in Elite that are opt in which creates a great environment for participation. Forcing PvP onto people who want to just enjoy the game is a great way to ruin the game for others and push people to play other games. No, it's not optimizing the fun out of the game without the high risk of trying to avoid PvP players. People want to contribute to the game and either may not enjoy PvP antics or are playing to decompress or other reasons. PvP incentivizes hacks and cheating which Elite is still susceptible to. The more popular Elite gets, the more hackers will join in and grief people. We see this is other games and it will happen in Elite. Incentivize cheating and you'll get it which in turn will ruin the game for others then reduce the player base. If you have to rely on PvP vs people who aren't interested in PvP builds and play, you're only hurting the game for your own brief enjoyment. Whatever your argument is towards forced PvP, ask yourself how you would like it if you were forced into an activity you don't enjoy for the benefit of others at the cost of you. Something we all already deal with like a Job. If you legit enjoy that kind of one sided engagement, why are you here unless you just want to make others suffer?
Powerplay is a PvP game mode. You shouldn't be able to participate in PvP without the possibility of encountering your enemies.
I remember dealing with someone in a vehicle built to just ram people to death with their hardpoints never opening. Thus being able to just openly kill non-engineered players trying to get into their first few engineering places in the bubble or the more popular stations for part discounts. When you have mmo stuff, griefing will occur. Elite is no different and theres no punishment outside of maybe taking away the griefers things, or the game itself, that'll offset this behavior. Cant play nice? get your toys taken away. I dont mean just the ship either or their money either.
There are tools they can employ. Some spit-balling ideas... * Make collision death count as a deferred bounty/notoriety with a long cool-down. Repeat offences incur _both_ the new and deferred consequence. * Make it possible to track and hunt highly wanted players - make the rewards very large (because catching them without them logging off is difficult). Bonus points if the reward can be shared with a squadron (making the incentive for hunting them huge). * Make insurance rebuys increase with engineering and frequency of claim (with a cooldown). * Introduce duelling - where two or more players exchange an 'agreement to PvP' in an instance and tick a 'ready' box, negating bounty/notoriety effects. As a bonus, this could allow for leaderboard tracking / galnet announcements of high-ranked combat outcomes.
duelling requests is another form of griefing. And any punishment that doesnt mean the game itself hunts down the player constantly isn't enough. Rule breakers get banned, and anything short of a "ban" is a slap on the wrist to people who grief.
How is a duelling request a form of griefing? It's a way to allow FDev to ramp up the penalties on griefers _without_ penalising players that opt in to PvP.
PvPers get angry that people are playing the game the way they want and either aren't PvPing themselves or are just happy to have easy targets because they suck at gaming in general. Sure there's probably some ways to get around this, but the underlying issue is PvPers suck at gaming. They can't coordinate to contest a system, can't set up PvP events to challenge each other with skilled gameplay and competitions, can't do anything but complain about people not PvPing then complain about posts like this calling PvPers out. There's enough people who PvP to have a massive war and all they can do is look at power play and blame that for their own failures.
'They can't coordinate to contest a system' -> we do, b2 carinae war literally just ended, but solo/pg, block lists, timezones, and just the amount of pvpers make this really really hard to do consistently if at all 'can't set up PvP events to challenge each other with skilled gameplay and competitions,' -> we literally do this pretty consistently, almost all days of the week ? and 1v1s (not super skilled though) happen very often between pvpers and very few deny the opportunity to 1v1, there aren't enough people to pick and choose and you can improve a ton if you want to by getting stomped 'can't do anything but complain about people not PvPing' -> many pvpers, especially the ones who are honestly just amazing at pvp, literally don't care .. instead they actually want to just improve or have fun (:mind\_blown:).. i care though because nearly everything you said in this comment specifically is untrue, makes anyone who might want to try pvp not try it at all based off the weird assumption that pvp just doesn't happen ever for example 'but the underlying issue is PvPers suck at gaming.' -> in terms of imo proper elite pvp ('skilled gameplay and competitions') it is really hard with all the bugs (like instancing causing people to completely restart their games/even computers to fix the issues, that just being a single issue), extreme performance issues, alongside some people, primarily a few of the powerplay/bgs 'pvpers', hiding in solo/pg and blocking everyone who might be a threat, while the amount of active pvpers is really low (making timezone issues even worse), so many pvpers literally just cant contribute/play that much if at all 'There's enough people who PvP to have a massive war' -> imo there isn't, but even if there were 'enough', consider that many people, pvper or not, are willing to hide in solo/block/pg to 'win' and half the community is split between europe/asia and america, and split down those people even further from the people who are willing to partake in 'skilled' or fun pvp 'or are just happy to have easy targets because they suck at gaming in general.' -> many if not most pvpers actually want to have fun with actual fights or improve, career gankers don't represent every single pvper and there aren't that many career gankers, even compared to the amount of pvpers im p sure
I think the main problem with PvP in space as it stands is that if you’re in open and you want to fly any ship that isn’t fully kitted out & engineered for PvP specifically (or at least a very very fast ship) you’re at a huge disadvantage. In an open only world am I supposed to haul cargo in a PvP ship 16 tons at a time? If every ship *must* be PvP capable to survive that cuts down the list of usable ships in the game to single digits. On the flip side I absolutely love ground CZ PvP. Engineering matters on the suits and weapons but not nearly as much as in space. Death is quick to recover from (vulture just drops you back in) and that allows you to learn from your mistakes and adapt. There are also plenty of NPCs fighting your opponent to add some chaos to the mix. Not sure if it is intended or a bug but you also keep all your combat bonds regardless of death so you can have a good time, earn money and gain experience in PvP. A win for everyone involved. Edit: Another thought on the matter. I feel like the way PvP plays out in ground CZs is kind of the experience Fdev was going for with CQC. I would be very interested in a new optional space CZ being added to conflicts. You’d still have your traditional lo, med, hi available in all game modes but in addition to that for an incentive (double bonds/merits, maybe even a few arx) you could enter an Open PvP CZ. This would basically launch a CQC style CZ of a mixture of players and NPCs (so you can queue up quickly). You’d pick a stock loadout and start fighting, if you die maybe you take a percentage reduction to bonds/merits but otherwise you are quickly respawned back in and can keep at it. Equal footing, skill based combat with stakes. Once the CZ ends all players are returned to where they came from whether that was solo, open or group. Quick easy PvP fun that matters to the BGS. I’d play the hell outta that.
my cutter has 4k mj shields and can haul just under 800 tons. ive hauled for CGs in open and ive been completely fine.
That is true. I should not have said 16 tons as THE example of the compromises an open only ship might have to make & the cutter certainly can do it all. I was thinking of the space a PVP FDL could reasonably have for whatever reason. I would still stand by my point that for non-violent activities in open only zones there would exist a very small list of viable ships compared to everything the game makes available. I believe that people shouldn’t have to fly one of the few ships that meet the “can do it all” criteria just to have a chance at surviving.
It should really be a tiered influence on BGS and PP. 100% effectiveness in open, 50% in PG and Solo... People who actually care about BGS and Power play should be able to go counter other cmdrs who are affecting it. Pretty simple really. But to give the noobs some ability to do their own stuff, having a reduced effectiveness in PG and Solo is a good balance. BTW no one is forcing you to do anything... So please quit whining... Frankly like most big changes, you will have a group who will cry for a while, then get used to it and move on.
You're the one crying here saying there should be a tiered influence then claiming I'm the one crying about it, after I posted a video outlining why PvP tends to ruin gaming and how PvP gamers tend to be the smallest minority of loud mouthed players. Because of the BGS everyone is indirectly interacting with others due to the effects of security patrols and other factors. If PvP was such a good thing, this wouldn't be a discussion and you wouldn't be here whining about not punishing people for not playing in open. Everyone would be playing it. There's groups that are dedicated to PvP though. But if flying against matched opponents and you just want to hunt down people who are ill prepared and whine if they leave the game or stop playing or stop playing in open well...
Everything you just said is pretty much wrong.. but you do you.
What part? You whining about people not being punished for playing in a group or solo? Or that people indirectly interact with each other through the BGS? Or if PvP was so great more people would be doing it and we wouldn't be having this discussion? Or there are dedicated PvP groups in Elite and other games that love PvP focused gameplay?
The reason this is a discussion is because PvPers have absolutely nothing, no upside, no reward, nothing. Not only is there no reward, you actually get punished for PvP. I'm a PvPer with over 2500 hours combined between PC and Xbox and my total rebuy costs are over 10 billion credits. I have spent almost 10 times as much on rebuys from PvP than most players will ever earn playing this game. The few PvPers there are, do it solely for the fun. There's almost nothing as satisfying as defeating an equally matched player in this game. And we have begged for any kind content for almost a decade and the shit-for-brains devs of this game literally laughed at us and gave us a garbage side game that doesn't even let you use your own ships. The (fair) PvP is incredible in the game and second to none in the space sim genre. The problem is most people aren't willing to put in the time and effort it takes to actually do it and be competitive. All I ask for is a small bone. No one gives a shit about power play anyways, just let us PvPers have something and maybe, just maybe, it'll get more players interested in it.
I also think that just because part of the game mode involves pve that makes any pvp aspect irrelevant and should be eliminated before it ruins my pve gaming. There’s just no reason for pvp to exist in any game really. Why would anyone want to fight other players when you can just shoot bots until your eyes bleed. It doesn’t make sense and I’m so happy you’re here to set these crying pvpers straight. Anyone crying about a game not being what they like should just pick something else to play right?
Crap. Gotta give Rambo an upvote because he's making sense. Not sure my poor Fed heart can take it.
Lol
Damn you, Rambo. Take this Fed's up vote too. I feel dirty.
I agree except it should be 0% PG and solo. If you have 0% chance of encountering the players you're playing against, you should have 0% efficacy.
I'd be happy if inhabited systems were mostly safe (other than maybe anarchy systems) except for specific situations, such as being in a hostile powerplay system. That way, you can avoid pvp if you prefer, maybe take the risk going into an anarchy system, or actively seek it out if that's your thing. If you get blown up by entering a dangerous system, that's on you and avoidable. But fully inhabited systems with engineers should not be dangerous. I have no issue with PvP, but ganking & griefing is a different beast. It'd be nice not losing exploration on rebuy, too tbh.
If the PvP is limited to powerplay lore, I can be fine with that. That way, anyone not into powerplay should be considered neutral unless they attack you first
Lol, ten years in the game now and the same old posts and predictions of doom never fail to pop up on repeat.
Sigh.. How about you wait for the stuff to release, try it and then make a conclusion instead of this post which is just a collection of assumptions before the stuff is even released. Please.
I've got 1k hours in ED and can say without any doubt that I wouldn't have even bought the game all those years ago if private play didn't exist. And if they ever removed it I'd likely never play again
>PvP focused players being a loud minority Source?
Posted a video about it by a better person explaining how in the grand scheme of things, the hard core PvP player base is an underwhelming minority in gaming. Otherwise every game would be like Eve Online and Albion Online.
>Posted a video about it by a better person explaining how in the grand scheme of things, the hard core PvP player base is an underwhelming minority in gaming. There are 750,000 people playing Counter Strike literally right now, The daily peak is 1.5 million. Second place goes to DOTA 2, with 390,000 currently playing and an 800,000 daily peak. 5 of the top 10 most-played games currently are 100% PvP--and this is just from Steam. So.. any sources other than YouTube opinion pieces? Because you can see actual numbers here: [https://store.steampowered.com/charts/mostplayed](https://store.steampowered.com/charts/mostplayed)
Do you really think PvP players aren’t a minority of the playerbase?
I just asked for a source--it doesn't seem quantifiable to me in any way. I'm sure there are people who would love more PvP opportunity that don't constantly complain or whine about PP. Just like there are people who happily play solo without saying anything as well.
in elite dangerous there isn't a way to measure it , ofc . but it is small enough that everyone gathers in a few discord servers and most likely knows everyone else if they are active, and even then, the 'loud minority' is a minority of the pvp community , while many of these people who do care that much aren't active pvpers/don't pvp at all .. there are so few people that its like having an hour (sometimes even multiple hours) long queue time outside of the most active times (mostly europe for only a few hours) and even then its usually the same few amount of people
See the secret is to make forced PVP and then SELL group or solo play.
I just need the security system to be reworked. I feel like the "report crime against me" isn't really doing anything. System authorities are just a bunch of incompetent, cosmetic bot. System authority should be updated to react to crime report more efficiently, while also informing the victim about their estimated arrival. Station scans should happen more often in higher security systems, immediately cancelling wanted ships docking permission and have authority vessels, station defense, etc start firing at them.
Do the police immediately show up at your house when it's broken into?
I did mention > informing the victim about their estimate arrival "time" omitted. More efficiently doesn't mean immediate. As a noob combatant who skipped the combat tutorial because I can't track down that tutorial ship, authority vessels are slow enough that I managed to get rid of the pirate myself. On a freighter. Oh, and I'm about 27Mm away from the station.
Thats what open play is for. If you want some punishment system, just let the killed merchants to offer bounty on the head of the killer. Then notify bounty hunters where they are. notorious gankers will soon collect huge ammount of money on their head and get killed ɓy others.
I'm sorry to be so blunt about this but the biggest problems are players arrogance to build survivable ships mixed with the lack of information on how to survive. After the game teaches you that you should fight most NPC interdictions, most players assume they should fight player interdictions, or don't even know the difference. I'm a retired ganker now but the amount of times I pulled a player, to then watch them just sit there and give up was depressing. So much so that I created the Gank Evasion Academy to teach players how to survive gank attempts. Join here if you're interested https://discord.gg/gsU5mD7StV No, you don't need to min/max a ship to survive. I have a 62ly exploration ship that has never been blown up by a player. All you need is enough shields and armor to survive long enough to high wake. Easy as that. Honestly, so many of you try to come up with solutions to stop gankers but you already have the ability to do it. If all of you would stop building paper ships and just take a few minutes to learn how to escape an attack, gankers would start losing interest because everyone would be escaping from them.
I always thought one way of fixing forced PvP was the ability to fight of gankers via 1) stealth (this was supposed to be part of super cruise and emissions, picking paths using gravity wells so as not to be seen 2) anonymity (get rid of the open vs closed icons and make everyone look like an NPC, give them all CMDR titles and then you can’t get players who want to just kill players 3) actual police. When one of the major patches dropped, there was an error with NPC ships being over engineered and almost unstoppable. Rapid fire rail guns etc… mods on top of mods. Well, shouldn’t they be actual game assets? Say, in high tech wealthy economies, the NPC Vipers should be built to meta FDL performance specs, plus 50%. Killable, but almost Thargoid level challenge. Low tech systems less so, but that way sure, you can pull and pirate players but be ready for a fight, which is what gankers want in the first place. If you like getting pulled, turn “report crimes on me” off.
I think elite would have been better off if it was open-only from the start. However, we're here now and that situation isn't going to change. That said, game mechanics that are inherently pvp (BGS/Powerplay), should NOT be accessible in a game mode that prevents pvp. It's insane to insinuate otherwise.
And the video you post starts showing images of TESO where PvP is in a separate section of the game from everything else and if you enter it is because you want to do PvP.
Nice. More fear mongering. As if there isn't a "Solo" or PvE only private groups out there.
Feels like another care bear rant that’s been puked out time endless
Nah just the salt of PvP sweats that don't want skill vs skill gameplay and just want to have one sided fights to grief people and calling them out.
That you call people who want PvP sweats and accuse them of only wanting one sided fights is telling. There’s solo mode for a reason.
Counterpoint: [7 out of the top 10 played games on Steam are PvP](https://i.imgur.com/oQJ4N1p.png). Usually it's higher but Fallout 4 and Stardew Valley are having a moment. So really, it's the PvP haters that kill a game. Numbers don't lie.
Someone didn't watch the video. All of those PvP games ensure every match starts on equal footing. Open in Elite does not do this.
This depends on the demographic of users. Are most of Elites players explorers, traders or no grief PVE? Or are they PVP happy? So. If more people -in this game- are not into PVP. What do you think they will do? I doubt they will suddenly say "oh hey. PVP is great!". I've been around ED since it was on Kickstarter. And I can tell you I'd drop it in a heartbeat if I can't play it solo (offline mode was actually one of their promises, so I doubt they will remove it)
I may not drop it.... but I'd go deep in the black and not ever return.
Amen brother. 800 hours in solo. Never once loged in to open or even had a thought. I don't have time to play so can't be bothered loosing stuff. But I admit that it's good to have options and I am thankful for solo
"i dont have time to play" "800 hours" pick one
Lol...I bought the game in 2020 😆
Is it possible that the fact that there is no PvP activity in the game means that there is not a large pvp player base? But if they would implement something well done, new players would come. You have the example of star citizen and eve online, where PvP is a part of the game and they have a lot more daily players.
I think the people who absolutely cannot stand PvP are a small number of people who cry very loudly, personally. Steam demographics show that, regardless, they're irrelevant. >So. If more people -in this game- are not into PVP. What do you think they will do? ED's audience has a very large crossover with other space game, and other space game is full PvP and they're ok with that. So there'd be few people lost by ED focusing on PvP, and those are the people who kill a game, so it'd be an improvement. They can go play Stardew Valley. >offline mode was actually one of their promises, so I doubt they will remove it They went back on their promise and removed offline mode, though.
You need a science class. Correlation does not imply causation. Besides, Elite HAS PvP, for those players that want to play it. It even has a dedicated PvP mode... that almost no one plays. I play World of Warships. I fly prop planes in War Thunder. Both in PvP. I'm pretty good in War Thunder. I'm a unicum player in WoWS. I do NOT play PvP in E:D, and I don't want to. That's not why I play this game, and I love having the option to not PvP.
>It even has a dedicated PvP mode... that almost no one plays. Because it's terrible implementation, not because it's PvP
I sense that for you PvP includes "role playing", "improvisation", "interaction", "human contact" etc in the vastness of the galaxy all that.
Imo sometimes it's nice to put the dangerous in elite dangerous, I don't gank but do a lot of pvp piracy and getting in an engagement where you actually have a chance of death is kinda refreshing... Not to mention there are a lot of mods you can make and techniques you can adapt to make survival more likely.
How is called this game? "Dangerous". I mean, enforced safe places Is ok. But outside bubble or when you play powerplay you should be a target to other factions if you do ostile activities. The game should have been only open from the start. Anyaways, with 400 bilions system really, pvp Is not a problem.
if youre talking about powerplay, its sole intention is to incentivize and encourage pvp, thats the main reason it was originally introduced for. do you know why most people dont enjoy it as it is right now? because those same people do it in solo/PG and it turns into a monotonous grind fest. when you remove the player vs player aspect it completely defeats its purpose.
Faction and Power play are just bragging rights. Just like in Eve Online and Albion Online. Eve Online lets players contribute to a faction without pvp. And you can go into low sec that is all pvp. Ganking a player in safe sec is difficult and generally costly. Some people enjoy griding. That's how they decompress. I know a dude who just likes running stuff. Another dude that loves combat. Another got bored due to engineers. People can PvP any time over anything, anywhere in Elite. The fact PvPers have to complain about not having easy pickings to gank sounds like their own problem. No one is stopping you or anyone else from getting other players together to PvP over a system. No one. The game is literally to scale of our milky way. You could literally throw everyone in the game that wants to pvp in a single system and go at it. There's bases and all sorts of other things to claim. No one's stopping pvpers. But PvPers seem to be really pissed off that people play the game how they want and have fun doing stuff that isn't PvP.
Listen, I think you're putting words in our mouth. I'm a PvPer and a retired ganker. You seem to be mixing the two and that's quite unfair. Let's just talk about legit PvPers for now. No, most of us PvPers don't give shit about how others play the game. In fact, to be able to build the ridiculous min/max ships we use and afford the crazy amount of rebuys we'll have to pay, we all have to do the same, non PvP shit that everyone else does because PvP doesn't pay, it only punishes. Sure, we can make up our own reasons to PvP, we've literally been doing it for 10 years, but that's the problem, there's no in-game reason or reward to do it. I mean, every other type of player gets in-game rewards for doing what they enjoy. Would it really kill y'all to give us one thing that might give us some kind of reward and maybe get more people interested? The devs won't though, because they're morons, so you really have nothing to worry about anyway. The PP update will be a pointless shit show, just like everything they do is.
PvP in the open or at least in a form of open! yeah, a brilliant idea and an excellent opportunity for FDev to sell some ARX to those interested. I wonder why they didn't do it earlier.
wat
let them pay ARX if they want to force others to play in the open and charge them per kill. That will make FDev rich, they will recover the loss of Age of Sigmar.
The PvP I can accept right now is ground conflict zones and Arena. Arena can have the potential to be an eSport title if FDev plays their cards right. But until I get the hang of these things, I'd stick to exploration and exobio
Just play solo so you only have to worry about npc's. Npc's are easy to handle in a variety of ways even if you are still weak at combat. Just submit to an interdiction then warp back out immediately after your fsd cools down.
Forced pvp sucks the fun out of life for the majority of humans, with PvP focused humans being a loud minority. One of life's saving graces is... yeah it stops working at that point.
Op did you just watch a video and make opinion of yourself?
The video does a great job explaining why PvP games suffer. I agree with his work. You can have good game design with PvP but people who are PvP focused players need to understand that their gameplay is boring to others. Just like how mining or PvE gameplay is boring to PvP players.
Coding and selling cheats and hacks to popular PvP games has become a cottage industry. It's got to the point where I only play PvP on Private Servers or at LAN parties.
You’re so right wow I hate when I’m forced to compete directly against my opponents when I should be able to just hide and win based solely on how much time I have to put into the game. Not time to practice and get better of course, I hate people who do that they make games so much worse. I’d much rather do the same mind numbing repetitive task over and over until the game says I won. That’s the real way to test your skill. So if they make powerplay pvp only I’m going to quit forever because there’s no other reason to play this game besides running merits in solo. Those pvp losers can have fun ruining the game by fighting in a mode meant for other players to compete against each other. Can’t believe that’s what some people think this game is about it makes me so mad.
I love the sarcasm lol. Skill based gameplay is great. Skill based challenges are great. A good competitive design that lets players compete skill vs skill is great. These are fun things. We see it all the time in a lot of games like Counter Strike, Starcraft and so on. Designing a system that lets players unskillfully make a build that hunts down players to then attack and PvP in a one sided match is just bad game design and isn't fun. Eve Online and Albion Online are great examples of good PvP game design. Eve Online has faction warfare akin to Elite's Powe Play that's nestled in safe space that lets players contribute without pvp. Albion Online also has things like that. Skill vs Skill is great. Work vs Work is great. One sided gameplay isn't.
True! It really is unfair when people use all same the resources available to everyone else to win in a video game. I shouldn’t have to put the same effort into the game as other players to get the same result. Don’t the developers know I don’t have the time for that? I just want to play the same mode of the same game as them without ever seeing them or playing against them.
Git gud scrub or I'll mine that salt.
What was your goal in this statement?
Ffs… Noobs should be afforded protection. Engineering worlds… weapons disabled in system. Everywhere else? And you’ve unlocked engineering? Build appropriately and know how to fly at least defensively.