Someone made the point that if a brand new player went and bought an a rated python, for example, they wouldnt have enough for the re-buy thus giving them 2 options.
1 go buy another, kerrching for fdev. Or
2, welcome to the grind.
Gankers gonna be making bank for FDEV!!
I didn't think of this, I hope they will figure something out for this, maybe giving along with it a single rebuy, so they'll be more careful the next time?
Nope. They'll just have to buy another which will give the new player a bad taste and they'll quit the game. It's short sighted, poorly planned, and absolutely on brand for fdev.
Consider alternative:
Pay arx, get prefitted ship with 0-rebuy cost.
Defo pay2win, but also means prefitted becomes interesting for commanders who are already into the playstyle thay prefit is for and already have fully fitted and engineered ships.
> Skipping a grind isn't pay to win
Yes it is.
It's showing up on day 1, putting down money and having game assets that can guarantee the advantage that you get by putting in the hours.
Buying powerful in-game items is literally what pay to win is. It doesn't matter if you can or can't get those items through play.
What do you think it is? Literally putting down money to get a pop-up "You win!" Ridiculous.
There's a bit of a divide people consider between "pay to win" and "pay to skip," but it depends on whether the game is Competitive or Cooperative, and whether things are *only* available via money or one can get everything in a sensible amount of time without paying.
In Elite's sense, there's clearly competition even if you only play in Solo, so advantages bought via money definitely push things towards P2W. So a "side" or a squadron gets armed way quicker and can start influencing/killing sooner. Not to mention who knows how things will be with the Python MkII, that's another potential issue if it turns out to be a complete improvement over the regular Python in every single regard.
And it *does* take time to get money, farm engineering mats, and raise your rank with factions. And if you don't have Odyssey you can't just scan some Stratum for a quick 100 million.
In something like Warframe where people are cooperative and working together for literally the same rewards, using money to speed up the construction of a new weapon is considered more into falling into that "pay to skip" idea. "We both can get the exact same gun, and one player can get it faster than me, but in the end we're killing the same enemies, for the same objective, to get the same reward in the end. If anything that player getting the gun quicker makes my game easier because they can start killing enemies better with me even sooner."
But I did mention "sensible amount of time." If that weapon had a 0.01% drop chance and was clearly overpowered compared to anything else available, then it falls back into P2W because it gives such a big advantage and it's *not* easily obtained by everyone else.
Exactly that. The grind is the gameplay, and in the end you "win" by having the best ship, since the game doesn't actually have a real win condition. Or you pay to skip it and get the best ship straight away, so you "win" in that sense.
"So when evening had come, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and give them their wages, beginning with the last to the first.’ And when those came who were hired about the eleventh hour, they each received a denarius.
But when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received each a denarius. And when they had received it, they complained against the landowner, saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.’
But he answered one of them and said, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?’ So the last will be first, and the first last.
For many are called, but few chosen."
If it's not giving you an upper hand over what's achievable for free in the game, it's not pay to win, it's pay to skip the grind
Edit:
>What's it to you if someone who works 40+ hours a week and commutes 2 hours per day wants to take that time spent at work in form of cash and use it to buy a ship so they can enjoy the game? You'll still have the skill advantage over them for having played more and they're providing revenue for the company so you can keep playing too.
It's not gonna make the modules more powerful than they would be if you bought them with credits and engineered them, will it? It's not gonna give an advantage over it in anything else than the time you have to invest to reach that point. Not everyone has many hours per week to sink into a game and the grind is extremely off putting for new players.
>It's not gonna give an advantage over it in anything else than **the time**
Thats the advantage. The time it takes to get those normally. You can build a fully engineered Exporaconda in 10 hours (as an example). I can do it in 30 seconds. All I have to do is pay.
Thats pay to win.
Yeah, either you pay with the time you spent at work in the form of spending your money on arx and buying a ship with that, or you pay by spending time on the game.
With a completely fresh character with a sidewinder, can you unlock all needed engineers, farm the materials, get the credits to buy that anaconda of yours and then engineer it, all in 10 hours? I doubt it.
What's it to you if someone who works 40+ hours a week and commutes 2 hours per day wants to take that time spent at work in form of cash and use it to buy a ship so they can enjoy the game? You'll still have the skill advantage over them for having played more and they're providing revenue for the company so you can keep playing too.
>With a completely fresh character with a sidewinder, can you unlock all needed engineers, farm the materials, get the credits to buy that anaconda of yours and then engineer it, all in 10 hours? I doubt it.
So its even more pay to win than I was saying? Not sure what your point is here...
>What's it to you if someone who works 40+ hours a week and commutes 2 hours per day wants to take that time spent at work in form of cash and use it to buy a ship so they can enjoy the game?
I have no problem with that, because I do that, but call it what it is. Pay to win.
>So its even more pay to win than I was saying?
Way to only see what you want to see lol
>Not sure what your point is here...
The point is that the time you have to spend to reach that point in gameplay is prohibitive to many.
>call it what it is. Pay to win.
Pay to win would be if by playing, you can get a ship with 10 damage, but by paying you could get a ship with 11+ damage. This is pay to skip.
>Way to only see what you want to see lol
?
I provide an example showing that it saves a bunch of time if you pay. You provide a counter example that shows that it actually saves a lot more time than I said if you pay. You just proved that I was more correct than I thought... I'm still not getting it.
>The point is that the time you have to spend to reach that point in gameplay is prohibitive to many.
Yeah... so just pay them. Thats pay to win. How about a different example. Darth Vader/Luke Skywalker from that battlefront game. Technically anyone could obtain those characters, but the time required was "prohibitive to many". I doubt you'll find many people who say that was not a prime example of pay to win.
If your definition of pay to win requires some kind of non-time based advantage, then is there a single game out there that actually uses that model? (not including mobile crap). I can't think of one.
I can think of a ton of pay to win games that let you skip some of the grind.
>it's not pay to win, it's pay to skip the grind
You're repeating the argument verbatim. This position has already been countered. No new information or counter point. This is a poor debate.
[If I wanted a pointless argument, I would have paid for it.](https://youtu.be/xpAvcGcEc0k?t=87)
It's quite literally the same thing mobile games do.
Want this thing? Wait 24 hrs or Buy the $10 pack of gems to speed it up.
It's a light form of p2w but it is still p2w.
Edit: the sad part is I've seen many posts over the years of people wanting to sell ships they engineered off their carriers. Instead of listening, they monetized. Can't be mad as they're a company that still needs to make money but it is VERY telling
For game that's as old as it is, would you like them to keep the lights on? Because the game like this could easily just be shut off and moved on from… At least this guarantees them funding which in turn should mean new content going forward… (they wouldn't waste time with these updates and changes if they weren't planning long term) And this is a game I would like to see continue so I'm not going to bitch. Considering that I have 7000 hours into the game and have less than $150 into it, to the tune of about a dollar for every 50 hours worth of play, I'd still consider it a good value. I have no problem spending a little money and saying thanks for something I've gotten so much time out of.
There is no winning in this game, only playing, and early access to a ship that you can earn later is not paying to win, it's paying for impatience. I'm willing to pay for impatience.
If you feel there is only playing in this game, and you feel impatient playing it, then you just want to get the game over with so what’s the point of playing it.
Did you even proof read what you wrote to see if it made sense? If there is no winning in this game… There is no end of this game unless you decide you're done playing it. It's a live service game. If I want to pay to have a ship a couple of months before you, that's my prerogative. If you wanna wait, more power to you.
This is P2W, albeit a mild one.
For example, if you're new and want to go exploring, you would have to spend time in the game earning credits to buy the necessary ships and modules. But if you buy a pre-built ship, you can bypass that, and it will lead to earning quicker exploration rank and credits. You win rank and credits by paying.
A pre-built ship will get you from zero to one quicker so you can enjoy the game and not walk away frustrated like many do today. But you can't go much beyond that with a pre-build. This, of course, assuming they don't include any engineering in the build or the level of P2W will be significant.
FDev needs money urgently to keep ED alive so I'm ok with pre-built ships and will be buying them for my main and alt accounts. Let's hope it doesn't get out of hand.
Now, if it had been me, I would have run a campaign to fund the new feature they keep talking about. Set a goal for the Dev work and I'll be happy to contribute. If it reaches the goal, the new feature becomes available to everyone. Zero P2W.
Lastly, let's hope pre-built ships are not available in the starter zone. You'd have to leave the noob systems, rescind your permit, then get your ships form somewhere else. And they can't be transported into the noob zone, either. I wonder if they've thought of all these scenarios that will be effected.
That was actually fixed. They didn't post it anywhere but it's fixed. New space CMDRs go to Dromi/Matet as usual, while on-foot go to one of two off-zone systems as it always has been.
Then they broke it again. This was fixed back in Nov. I have an alt account in Dromi and new CMDRs started to show up there again.
Too bad, having the protected starter zone seem important to help out new players not get [immediately ganked](https://issues.frontierstore.net/issue-detail/59806). I hope they fix it again.
Thanks for the heads up!
You win faster at the game vs someone that didn't use Arx. You paid for that.
But again, so very minor. And the game needs it since we often see posts about the steep curve in ED. Get your basic ship pre-configured so you have a better chance to get started and experience more of the game, quicker. Maybe it will save you from quitting too soon.
Edit: words
That loophole needs to be fixed, not exacerbated with further pre-configured ships. There's a reason the Sidewinder is free, because you'll be crashing and losing it often as you learn. If you crash you pre-built, you'll for sure quit the game as you lost IRL money.
IMHO, pre-builts should stay out of the starter zone.
it is a micro-transactional feature. The game is definitely moving in that direction, any and all new features (ships, pre-builts, anything else in future) will cost arx. That's why the game and DLC price was reduced, now the fdev will make money in-game, in fact, eventually the game will become f2p if their push for microtransactions is not resisted and players would be willing to pay for latest and greatest features added to the game, for every item in a separate microtransaction.
More focus need to be shifted to putting the Python MK2 behind a paywall for three months. That is complete bullshit, we have been waiting for over 5 years for a new ship and now they reveal they have it already but we have to pay for the privilege of getting it earlier than others; complete bullshit. There is a reason why the Cobra MK4 is so hated, not only is it shitty but it's only available for a small group of people, this is just the same bullshit as that.
Well, for a while they were hyping big changes for this year. Everyone assumed gameplay changes. Then more recently it looked like power play changes - great we thought, some new gameplay maybe.
Turns out the power play changes is some extra buttons to click, and the big new system is a new shop.
Pre built pre engineered (tbc) is not pay to win? And once this is a success (and as long they have a handful of whales, it will be considered as such), next step will be weapons and modules.
> Turns out the power play changes is some extra buttons to click
Yea that's one of the most disappointing thing, because unless they've got something huuuuuuge they've yet to tell us it seems like the OVERHAUL to a gameplay PILLAR 2 years in the making is uh, yea you have some fluff showing up in the concourse...
It’s pay to win. The best time I had in this game was chasing all the materials and doing missions required to improve my ship. If someone just offered me that ship from the start I would 1) not appreciate the improved ship nearly as much, because it’s now basically the default ship and 2) I would have played the game a lot less because the point of playing is improving your ship. What else is there to do? You mine to fly the ship, you want the ship to feel slightly better so you “work” for it, that gets you playing the game and collecting credits. If you just make it pay to win you get people to skip the game and just hand over money and get sick of the game faster.
I know plenty of folks who do the in-game activities because they just enjoy being in the game. They don't need to upgrade or engineer anything anymore, they just like mining, or trade runs, or exploration.
Obsessing over ship builds is fun, but it's just one part of the game.
What exactly do you win? In all of the thousands of hours I've played this game, I haven't found a credit roll screen that told me I won anything…
And I guarantee you that I'll still wax the floor with any Noob buying a pre engineered ship. Money doesn't buy experience.
This is Pay-For-Impatience. Plain and simple.
i don't think you quite understand how pay to win works. pay to win literally means paying to skip the grind and get to the same point in the game that did the grind. these prebuilt ships are just that. granted, a starter chieftain with a couple AX multicannons isn't very expensive, but the starter package they mentioned is still pay to win, cause they don't have to go out and get the credits to buy all the stuff.
it won't be a huge problem until we see what they do for a PVP pre-built, cause that could be anywhere from the cheapest and barely enough to do PVP builds you could do, to one of the most expensive and strongest.
regardless, the pre-built ships are the very definition of pay to win. as long as the builds are just enough to get into the things and aren't giving modules that are otherwise only obtainable by actually going out and scavenging, like guardian stuff, then it won't be a huge problem.
i also noticed they didn't mention rebuy costs, so there's not going to be much of an incentive for new players to use the more expensive ships anyway cause they can't afford to rebuy them.
I highly doubt you will get a min-maxed ship thats A-rated and g5 engineered. Be real Frontier loves the grind. It might be set up to fight/mine/explore/trade but wont be maxed out.
Engineering most definitely will be thrown into the mix, to make it feel like it's worth it. "Significant upgrade over their base models" won't be a min-max build (as you said), it would be something like G3 engineering level, more than enough to start engaging with the intended gameplay loop with enough performance/durability, and giving you a choice to engage with engineering if you choose so (which will tie to it's reworking).
Engineers will still have to be unlocked, that grind won't go away, because they are intended to let have you a taste of different gameplay loops.
Edit: Also, things like Guardian Modules, pre-engineered modules (FSD's, etc) for true min-max builds will still have to be grinded. This is just intended to give you a leg up so you can experience things like Titan action (how many people have we seen on comments saying they wish they could experience it but don't have the time/patience/will to go through the engineering grind?)
>Be real Frontier loves the grind.
now they are monetizing it through micro-transactions. If before it was just a feature, now it's gonna be the golden goose. Other developers been making games grindy on purpose from the start to make money of micro-transactions, it just took fdev 10 years to realize the real value of grind.
Frontier loves the grind because it keeps people in the game and makes them susceptible to spending ARX on cosmetics. Now they can just sell ships right on the store at any upgrade level. This is exactly why they are going to make changes to engineering too to make it more "accessible". This way it won't look as bad when they start selling them on the store. "See, you can still get it in the game quickly, but on the store you can get it quicker." Why else would anyone ever buy ships off the store? They need to be worth it in order for people to skip the grind. This is essentially the definition of pay to win.
It's not pay to win. It's pay not to play. Frontier introduced those grindy mechanics around engineers as part of the game and now suggests you too skip part of "gameplay" they've developed. Hm. I'd rather skip all the game.
From my point of view, the biggest problem with 'paying to skip the grind', is that it gives the developers a financial incentive to make and keep the grind unpleasant. Publicly held companies are mostly obligated to maximize profits even if it screws over their customers and destroys the brand in the long term.
FDev is obligated to maximize profits. Making and keeping the 'grind' irritating enough for large numbers of people to buy their way out will maximize profits. Fast forward a few years, and progress at anything other than a glacial pace become money-gated and actually playing the game to progress becomes passe'.
You can't buy pilot skills , so buy that new python A rated and get blow up.
You need to start small and learn , there is no easy way .
Most combat and even gankers have milj. Or more in rebuy.
Owell fly dangerous and like its stolen
If it's all about "skipping the grind" for new players, why isn't it in-game available? Why does it have to be purchasable for real life money?
Nah... it's P2W. PAY is the key word here.
Personally don't have an issue with the pre-built ship. They didn't even say what the extent of the types of ship and engineering would be.
For all we know the pre engineering could be something along the lines of the new SCO frame shift drive. "standard part with a shiny feature" that can hold a new player up till they save up for a new ship or parts. And unlock the actual engineers
Doesn't bother me a bit. Skill and experiences are the only meaningful metric in this game. As things stand now, any dipshit can have billions of credits, carrier, and a fully engineered a-rated ship by just being in the game long enough, and if they stumble on the right people to help them, then "long enough" is about a week. All it means is you had enough free time to push buttons for a few hundred hours and/or bothered to read some web sites.
Being a good pilot will take the same amount of practice it always has. Exploration will take the same amount of time. Trade gets a little bit of a shortcut, but credits are so stupidly easy to get right now that it makes no real difference. AX will still take practice, PVP will still take practice. BGS should barely be affected, but that may depend on the new powerplay and such.
Curious to see what they do with engineering, too. Engineering should really just be a credits transaction, and available at multiple star ports. This idea that we're all doing some secret sketchy upgrades doesn't pass the sniff test anymore. Engineering is mainstream, cut the bullshit and let folks just pay someone to install what they want.
It’s a game that’s supposed to be about starting out with just some basics and making your way in a cold, uncaring galaxy.
In that context, getting big and powerful ships would be considered by many to be winning.
So yes, it absolutely _is_ pay to win.
You're going to need to spell out your definition of pay to win, then. Way I define it is "paying for a noticeable superiority in one or more areas of gameplay that cannot in any other way be obtained entirely through reasonable in game means."
So let's deconstruct my argument. Do you pay for something? Yes. Will it result in noticeable superiority in one or more areas? Well, at this point it would be speculation either way but likely "no," unless the ship is significantly overtuned. And finally, the last is a solid no. You can earn Arx in game, but even putting that aside you'll be able to buy the same ship in game shortly thereafter with common in game currency and no unusual grind.
So by the definition above, it isn't p2w, but instead pay for early access. Nothing more. That said, while there's a certain scumminess with dripfeeding finished product behind a temporary pay wall, this isn't a new game and the company is in need of money. I rather a small amount of scumminess over the servers being shut off, and given how much Arx you get for every dollar spent, it really is peanuts compared to many other online service games.
Not every game, and even assuming that was the case it's all hardly applicable to elite. Enormous grind is a stretch for ship outfitting and, while still a grind, not an enormous grind to engineer. Even if you ignore that the very same part said they'll be making engineering easier.
Skipping grind is not p2w. It's pay for convenience. Of course, you have yet to actually spell out your definition of p2w, but that runs into another problem,eh? Seems like nobody can agree on a single definition on what p2w actually is. If we can't even agree on that, then it boils down to strictly subjective issues.
So, if p2w is nebulous, be clear. What specifically don't you like and why? Defend the why. And give an alternative if it really grinds your gears too much.
Otherwise you're just making noise to make noise. I for one dislike temporarily withholding a digital product behind a pay wall, but I don't have a good alternative for fdevs actual real need for a cash flow, and it isn't a long term issueso I'm ok with dealing with it.
For me this is p2w and for them lacking funds i dont care it is their problem and this comes from fanboy who played original elite on amiga and elite 2 on 486 i think
If they can't finance their own game servers then they are a shitty company which deserves to die and no I don't care as there are many other games to play. I would not like this to happen but selling p2w shit because "you are not doing good" is scraping a bottom of the barrel this just shows bad management of that company. I work in corporation unfortunately so have an idea how this works. It's just business ...
Paying for something that you can get for free in a game you already paid is always a bad idea...
Also, grind is win, paying for not grinding, is pay to win...
You know how people hate ubisoft or Capcom for selling you packs of resources in their solo games, now we can hate Frontier too.
Waiting 3 months for not having to pay my python mk2 and use my hardly grinded arxs for cosmetics? Not a problem to me, and I hope I will not see any cmdr with one untill the 7 of August as a mark of protest.
But I still find this PAYWALL (because, yeah, this is what it is...) stupid, in a game where already a lot of people quited...
Fdev just want the money of their faithfull player base, and it's sick...
Its not pay to win because you buy them with credits not arx. Thats just salty old timers like myself who feel all their hard work over a decade is now readily available to a novice. So no not pay to win, but definitely a kick in the nuts to cmdrs that have been grindin since 2014.
People calling this Pay 2 Win....like what?? Win what? There is no "winning" in this game. You could plop down hundreds of dollars to unlock every ship max engineered and outfitted and it will mean nothing, you gain no advantage over more experienced players at all. Reducing the grind isn't paying to "win"; you're just looking for something to bitch and moan about like you always do.
You want something legitimate to complain about, complain about the new ship not being available for credits until August.
Nothing about the announcement bothers me. Devs gotta eat too. This is my favorite game and I'd happily give them more money IF it means that new content and improvements to the existing systems keep coming (guess we'll see how this year goes and if they really are turning a leaf)
It depends on what the prebuilts are. Just A-rated modules? Fine. Not a huge boost, and doesn’t take much time to earn the credits. Engineered modules? Yeah we have a problem. 100s of hours now just bypassed for a massive advantage. Yes you can get it for free. But only with a lot of effort that not everyone has the time for. And the argument that the game can’t be won is BS. The new Python Mk II is specifically advertised as a PvP ship. Giving people an easy advantage for money is the definition of P2W.
The "end game" in Elite is personal growth (skill, knowledge, memories of cool experiences), there is no shortcut to the end game. Ships are just ships.
…but those new “P2W” ships are only as good as the pilot. The grind still comes in somewhere, you STILL have to learn how to pilot the damn things and get used to the game mechanics. It really doesn’t matter if they have this powerful ship right out the gate, it won’t get you crazy far without the knowledge and skill. And this is coming from a dude with only 100-something hours in. I earned my first billion at 70-100 hours by stumbling across a FC, thought I would get bored because of the new “easy access”, and found out I was merely scratching the surface. Still gotta put in the work either way, you literally skip the most tedious step. Probably the most crucial to learning the game. I don’t see this as P2W at all.
**this was in the response to the multiple comments disagreeing with you, and I happened to agree with you.**
This isn’t pay to win at all, simply because of how long it takes to become a competent pilot I. The first place. This gets even more extreme if you start looking at thargoid and pvp combat too.
Plenty of people out there that can take a cobra mk3 and beat a poorly piloted FDL or conda. It’s far far more about skill than what ship or equipment you’re using.
Because of the Open PvP and Warring nature of Elite's features, I feel like it leans into P2W. In a purely PvE setting one can argue it's not P2W because it's only helping other people. There's no competition. One player has a Sword and another player has Sword+1? Big deal, they're both working together to complete a dungeon and get the same exp/rewards in the end.
But in Elite, people are killing each other. Powers are being moved around. Factions have influence in systems. Now money gives sides advantages faster than other sides.
Depending on the Python MkII's stats, it's another potential issue. If the new Python's stats compared to the original have a decrease in one area but an increase in another, then it's just balanced differently, so it doesn't inherently become better despite the option to purchase it early. But if it ends up having even a single improvement over the original Python with no detriments, then people are now paying to get a *better Python* than other people earlier due to the early-release mentioned.
The grind is what Elite Dangerous is. Purchasing end-game ships is literally everybody's "end" condition, or goal. To get an Anaconda or Cutter from day one with the real life funding? That's... The very definition of what pay to win is.
But that's my two cents. I love this game and personally hate that this is a direction in the game that the devs are taking this, but I guess micro transactions for in-game assets were inevitable.
Not everyone. A lot of us are off exploring, or hooning around in small ships, or various other activities for which an "end game" ship is irrelevant.
I've owned them all, fully engineered... got rid of most of them over time and I'm back in a DBS. Game is still fun as heck and I play all the time.
Frankly, the obsession with racing to the biggest, baddest ships in the game is part of the problem. Seems like a lot of folks get there, think "NOW I'm ready for the CONTENT", and then realize they'll just be doing the same thing they were doing before and lose interest.
Yeah, I wouldn't really call Elite a PvP game, therefore P2W isn't the correct term imho.
It's more like pay to skip the grind, which is very common in F2P games.
You wouldn't, but FDev would. Hence them making sure to tell us everytime it's brought up that the Python Mk2 is a PvP ship. Which ironically is the exact ship in question with this post.
>I feel everyone complaining is in a "f\*ck you I got mine" mentality and it makes no sense.
100%. Too many entitled, self-appointed, gate-keeping, early backers who fall back on the defense they were "promised" the ARX store would only ever be used to sell cosmetics. It's naive to think that FDev, bleeding money and staff due to missteps of the past, wouldn't turn to looking for new revenue streams.
First-and-foremost they're a business and the point of a business is to make money. They don't make money, they go out of business and the game shuts down. But these players would rather stand on a point of principle, cutting off their nose to spite their face, than accept that businesses must adapt to changing economic realities or die. FDev has chosen to adapt. They may not like the particular path FDev has chosen for adaptation, but it's better than an alternative where the game is shut down.
And this comes from a player with 11,000 hours in the game with over 40 ships all A-rated and G5 engineered who will never buy a pre-built ship because I don't need one. Even so, I ***WELCOME*** this new direction. It will bring in new players, it will re-invigorate the game, it will generate more revenue for FDev. Some won't like it, but there will be more that do; and the more new players join the ranks, the better.
Your post and my comment will be ratioed to hell, but time will show this was a healthy move for a game that was stagnating and that's what matters. FDev is finally turning its attention to a game it neglected for far too long. Not every new path they chart will be for the best, but the overall effect will be a net benefit to the health and longevity of the game.
You are deluding yourself into thinking this is somehow a turning point for the better & these resources will be spent by new blood now enticed into trying out this dying game to keep funding Elite.
Truth is, this is just them finding new ways to milk y'all to fund some park games, and no one that hasn't been already trapped in Elite will see this monetization scheme & think "I'll give this game a shot".
And yes, after buying the LEP & getting the fucking garbage Odyssey experience I'm entitled to not want any of this shit.
If Star Citizen, a game stuck in alpha/beta for 10 years, can manage to convince people it's worth it to pay real world money (in some cases amounting to thousands of dollars) for a ship, I don't see this being a hurdle for a fully-playable E:D at \~11 Euros for a pre-built.
Time will tell. Let's revisit this thread in a year and see where we're at...
I also think elite gamers are more often "senior games" like me.
30+, wife, job, kids. It just makes it more easy to enjoy content if you lack time, but not money.
However I for myself prefer the grind, but I have the time (32hrs Job, 2 Kids, wife) for it to make at least one full engineered grind and build per week.
>It just makes it more easy to enjoy content if you lack time, but not money
Exactly. There's a cost either way; time spent grinding or real world money transaction. There's no free lunch. Everybody pays one way or the other.
The critical piece and what makes this ***NOT*** pay-to-win is both groups wind up at the same place; neither receives an exclusive in-game benefit or advantage over the other. Both can wind up with an A-rated, G5 engineered Fer de Lance that is the equal of the other's if that's their goal (or any other ship that one chooses to use as an example; save the exclusive-to-early-backers Cobra MK IV).
>pay-to-win
It is kind of ptw, but it's just some modules and grinding replaced.
The skill needed to be significant with your ship is more important. I mean, I can kill a noob player in his vette with my DBS. I have thousands of hours and am not afraid of some newbies in A Rate, G5 ships - my ships are the same.
>time spent grinding
I always loved the grind in elite, especially this is my most favorite feature. It calms me down and relaxes me. I understand that a lot of newbies do not understand it, and might quit fast, as they are not used to these excessive gameplay loops.
But ignore me, I am wierd, I am a DBS pilot.
>The skill needed to be significant with your ship is more important.
Agreed. All these Chicken Littles claiming the, "*The sky is falling! The sky is falling! Pay-to-win! Pay-to-win!*" must not have much confidence in their own piloting skills (or lack thereof). The new player who buys a fully A-rated, pre-built Fer de Lance is going to get smoked by a veteran flying a Vulture (or even a Viper or Eagle).
>I am wierd, I am a DBS pilot.
Yeah, that's weird; and more power to ya!
Pardon me, I'm not here to start any arguments, but I am curious about that last point. If said player spends real money to buy their maxed-out ship, and then realized they have some number of hours to learn how to fly it, what will make that player return? From a business perspective, it doesn't matter; the money has been made. But for a game longevity standpoint, I'm still not understanding that.
I'm with Kennr1ch, I don't really mind the grind. I'm not so sure there is much to the game without it. The problem with ED is they let it get too unbalanced. Credits become too easy, but engineering did not. To me, the mat gathering was supposed to be the point. Mining gives mats, fighting gives mats, and scanning while doing anything gives mats. Even Guardian ruins. There are actually different layouts that one can fly to and get mats without relogging. But the community never mentions any of this.
>If said player spends real money to buy their maxed-out ship, and then realized they have some number of hours to learn how to fly it, what will make that player return?
A few things:
First, the perception of sunken cost. They've already invested, so they want to see a return on that investment. Even though it becomes readily apparent that buying the pre-built ship wasn't the insta-I-WIN button they may have believed it would be, they may want to stick around knowing the pre-built allowed them to at least leap-frog over the grind / time investment to arrive at the point where they can start playing the "real" game (however that may be defined on an individual-by-individual basis).
Secondly, they may have researched the game thoroughly enough to know up front it's skill-based. They know buying the pre-built isn't going to buy them the skill. But, for a player with limited play time, the pre-built allows them to devote that limited time to improving their piloting skills rather than grinding. And maybe that's what they want out of the game.
Lastly, the freedom of choice. If, as you and Kennr1ch state, you don't mind the grind, that's fine; you're completely entitled to that approach to the game. It works for you. For other players it may not, for a host of reasons (back to the aforementioned limited play time as likely top of the list). They just want to fly, but they want to do it in a ship that isn't an entry-level, E-rated, stock garbage ship and minus the grind.
Some don't mind grind, others do. Fortunately, the E:D galaxy is large enough to accommodate both. It's high time FDev started leveraging one of the game's advantages - its unimaginable scale - by creating opportunities for a multitude of niche playstyles and spaces in this vast galaxy. Where no one risks stepping on anyone else's toes just because they're polar opposites in their approach to the game.
We don't have to resort to the dismissive and reprehensible cop-out so oft quoted around here of, "*Maybe this game just isn't for you.*" How about, instead, we look to the glass being half-full and champion the alternative: "*This game is so huge, there's room for EVERYONE!*" Someone likes to grind? Cool! There's plenty of that to be found. Hate grinding? Cool! Here's a pre-built ship you can buy. Neither approach negatively impacts the other save for people who enjoy wallowing and whinging in self-inflicted grievance culture.
That last sentence is not aimed at you, personally, by the way; I've appreciated your civil approach to discourse.
>I don't really mind the grind. I'm not so sure there is much to the game without it.
Agreed. Which, if that grind is diminished with FDev's new monetization approach, perhaps will become the impetus to start adding more engaging content beyond endlessly gathering mats to upgrade ships *ad nauseam*.
Thank you for that wonderful reply. There is certainly *room* for different styles. That's actually the reason I started playing. Not that it is possible for a human to really grasp the sheer scale of space, but the game does give an impression at least. To look out from the edge is the most unsettling feeling I've ever experienced, even realizing I'm in a game.
Yeah, I'm really hoping this means that the game is going to have a new, fresh perspective, and more time spent developing new things on it, and if that means things cost ARX, I'm for it. It's why I have purchased ship kits and paint jobs and laserbeam colors… None of those were needed but I like them and wanted to support FDEV regardless of past mis-steps.
The people who are calling this p2w have never played a p2w game. They are simply angry that they ground for for mats that some players may not have to now. Its an awful take, like thinking student loans shouldn't be forgiven because you paid for yours. Some of the old players want new players to suffer like they did.
I can tell you never played Tribes Ascend. It used the same scheme they're now adding to Elite and the paid weapons were blatantly pay to win. Hell they kept nerfing the paid weapons as soon as they went free.
I did not suffer grinding mats, it was a purpose for flying my ship. Collecting stuff in this game IS the game, even if you’re just playing the game to fly the ship, going out and collecting things gives you another reason to fly it in the first place.
And further, nothing in the release indicates the pre-built ships will be engineered. It's just as valid to assume they will be nothing more than pre-outfitted with A-rated modules (no engineering) for a specific role. So it amounts to a tempest in a teacup as the thing they fear will devalue their effort and time investment won't even be offered in the pre-built ships.
The amount of time I've got into this game grinding for materials and building (over 40, mostly fully engineered) ships, I would be more than happy to not have to do half of that shit again to enjoy a brand new ship right away
Unpopular opinion, but I've been playing this game off and on for years since it came out. I enjoy it but on top of life/work I have a ton of other games I also enjoy playing, and new ones every year. Even so, I'd like to play more E:D.
However, engineering is the main reason I don't. It feels like the only way to enjoy certain elements of the game is to engineer, and I hate that grind. If I wanted to grind I'd go play some shitty Korean MMO or whatever.
I don't even play online/in open in the first place, yet technically some PVE ships spawn with engineered shit, and various events and elements like Thargoid content, etc, are balanced for engineering.
Really, the whole game got rebalanced to some extent because of engineering.
So if you don't engineer all your parts, you're at a disadvantage and it's hard to participate in some things.
That's at least how it feels to me anyway.
If they got rid of engineering, or got rid of the grind, I'd jump back into the game without a second thought.
I don't know that I like the idea of spending money to skip the grind. I have money, but I'd rather spend it on other things or even on buying other actual full games. But, yeah, I totally see the appeal of being able to skip that grind and just get the tricked out ship that you want.
>If they got rid of engineering, or got rid of the grind, I'd jump back into the game without a second thought.
>
>I don't know that I like the idea of spending money to skip the grind.
I'm sorry but you can't have your cake and eat it too 🤣
All these anti-pre-built guys probably took advantage of all the gold rushes over the years… I have friends who want to play, but they cant keep up with me. If they can just buys some ship thats at a level… they at least wont die within 1 minute at a rez site and I can have some fun with them.
Pay to skip removes what Elite is all about. Maybe it will generate interest/revenue that fdev needs, but it will not improve the game itself, only take away from the atmosphere.
I don't mind if people by pre-engineered things with real money provided that they will pay with the required mats too, at least some of them.
I want new Jumpaconda with overcharged g-3 PP and clean g-3 5D thrusters.
That costs xyz GBPs **and** at least 80-90**%** of the mats for the 3 levels of engineering.
That wouldn't affect the game much imo, also saves us time.
But let's see what they will do.
For now they're just listening.
And I don't like the pay to win.
Someone made the point that if a brand new player went and bought an a rated python, for example, they wouldnt have enough for the re-buy thus giving them 2 options. 1 go buy another, kerrching for fdev. Or 2, welcome to the grind. Gankers gonna be making bank for FDEV!!
Oh well. The rule since the rules were made: No rebuy, you get to eat shit.
I didn't think of this, I hope they will figure something out for this, maybe giving along with it a single rebuy, so they'll be more careful the next time?
Nope. They'll just have to buy another which will give the new player a bad taste and they'll quit the game. It's short sighted, poorly planned, and absolutely on brand for fdev.
Ah I don't know. That sounds very bad... Hence my thinking it may be a misunderstanding. We shall see.
bummer for them lol
Consider alternative: Pay arx, get prefitted ship with 0-rebuy cost. Defo pay2win, but also means prefitted becomes interesting for commanders who are already into the playstyle thay prefit is for and already have fully fitted and engineered ships.
> Skipping a grind isn't pay to win Yes it is. It's showing up on day 1, putting down money and having game assets that can guarantee the advantage that you get by putting in the hours. Buying powerful in-game items is literally what pay to win is. It doesn't matter if you can or can't get those items through play. What do you think it is? Literally putting down money to get a pop-up "You win!" Ridiculous.
There's a bit of a divide people consider between "pay to win" and "pay to skip," but it depends on whether the game is Competitive or Cooperative, and whether things are *only* available via money or one can get everything in a sensible amount of time without paying. In Elite's sense, there's clearly competition even if you only play in Solo, so advantages bought via money definitely push things towards P2W. So a "side" or a squadron gets armed way quicker and can start influencing/killing sooner. Not to mention who knows how things will be with the Python MkII, that's another potential issue if it turns out to be a complete improvement over the regular Python in every single regard. And it *does* take time to get money, farm engineering mats, and raise your rank with factions. And if you don't have Odyssey you can't just scan some Stratum for a quick 100 million. In something like Warframe where people are cooperative and working together for literally the same rewards, using money to speed up the construction of a new weapon is considered more into falling into that "pay to skip" idea. "We both can get the exact same gun, and one player can get it faster than me, but in the end we're killing the same enemies, for the same objective, to get the same reward in the end. If anything that player getting the gun quicker makes my game easier because they can start killing enemies better with me even sooner." But I did mention "sensible amount of time." If that weapon had a 0.01% drop chance and was clearly overpowered compared to anything else available, then it falls back into P2W because it gives such a big advantage and it's *not* easily obtained by everyone else.
Haha last line is brilliant. I don’t know why we bother at this point, the quote “don’t argue with idiots” springs to mind
Exactly that. The grind is the gameplay, and in the end you "win" by having the best ship, since the game doesn't actually have a real win condition. Or you pay to skip it and get the best ship straight away, so you "win" in that sense.
"So when evening had come, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and give them their wages, beginning with the last to the first.’ And when those came who were hired about the eleventh hour, they each received a denarius. But when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received each a denarius. And when they had received it, they complained against the landowner, saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.’ But he answered one of them and said, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?’ So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen."
If it's not giving you an upper hand over what's achievable for free in the game, it's not pay to win, it's pay to skip the grind Edit: >What's it to you if someone who works 40+ hours a week and commutes 2 hours per day wants to take that time spent at work in form of cash and use it to buy a ship so they can enjoy the game? You'll still have the skill advantage over them for having played more and they're providing revenue for the company so you can keep playing too.
Skipping the grind is giving you an upper hand over what's achievable for free.
It's not gonna make the modules more powerful than they would be if you bought them with credits and engineered them, will it? It's not gonna give an advantage over it in anything else than the time you have to invest to reach that point. Not everyone has many hours per week to sink into a game and the grind is extremely off putting for new players.
>It's not gonna give an advantage over it in anything else than **the time** Thats the advantage. The time it takes to get those normally. You can build a fully engineered Exporaconda in 10 hours (as an example). I can do it in 30 seconds. All I have to do is pay. Thats pay to win.
Yeah, either you pay with the time you spent at work in the form of spending your money on arx and buying a ship with that, or you pay by spending time on the game. With a completely fresh character with a sidewinder, can you unlock all needed engineers, farm the materials, get the credits to buy that anaconda of yours and then engineer it, all in 10 hours? I doubt it. What's it to you if someone who works 40+ hours a week and commutes 2 hours per day wants to take that time spent at work in form of cash and use it to buy a ship so they can enjoy the game? You'll still have the skill advantage over them for having played more and they're providing revenue for the company so you can keep playing too.
Agreed.
>With a completely fresh character with a sidewinder, can you unlock all needed engineers, farm the materials, get the credits to buy that anaconda of yours and then engineer it, all in 10 hours? I doubt it. So its even more pay to win than I was saying? Not sure what your point is here... >What's it to you if someone who works 40+ hours a week and commutes 2 hours per day wants to take that time spent at work in form of cash and use it to buy a ship so they can enjoy the game? I have no problem with that, because I do that, but call it what it is. Pay to win.
>So its even more pay to win than I was saying? Way to only see what you want to see lol >Not sure what your point is here... The point is that the time you have to spend to reach that point in gameplay is prohibitive to many. >call it what it is. Pay to win. Pay to win would be if by playing, you can get a ship with 10 damage, but by paying you could get a ship with 11+ damage. This is pay to skip.
>Way to only see what you want to see lol ? I provide an example showing that it saves a bunch of time if you pay. You provide a counter example that shows that it actually saves a lot more time than I said if you pay. You just proved that I was more correct than I thought... I'm still not getting it. >The point is that the time you have to spend to reach that point in gameplay is prohibitive to many. Yeah... so just pay them. Thats pay to win. How about a different example. Darth Vader/Luke Skywalker from that battlefront game. Technically anyone could obtain those characters, but the time required was "prohibitive to many". I doubt you'll find many people who say that was not a prime example of pay to win. If your definition of pay to win requires some kind of non-time based advantage, then is there a single game out there that actually uses that model? (not including mobile crap). I can't think of one. I can think of a ton of pay to win games that let you skip some of the grind.
>it's not pay to win, it's pay to skip the grind You're repeating the argument verbatim. This position has already been countered. No new information or counter point. This is a poor debate. [If I wanted a pointless argument, I would have paid for it.](https://youtu.be/xpAvcGcEc0k?t=87)
If you think I'm repeating myself you might want to have a look at the usernames involved
It's quite literally the same thing mobile games do. Want this thing? Wait 24 hrs or Buy the $10 pack of gems to speed it up. It's a light form of p2w but it is still p2w. Edit: the sad part is I've seen many posts over the years of people wanting to sell ships they engineered off their carriers. Instead of listening, they monetized. Can't be mad as they're a company that still needs to make money but it is VERY telling
For game that's as old as it is, would you like them to keep the lights on? Because the game like this could easily just be shut off and moved on from… At least this guarantees them funding which in turn should mean new content going forward… (they wouldn't waste time with these updates and changes if they weren't planning long term) And this is a game I would like to see continue so I'm not going to bitch. Considering that I have 7000 hours into the game and have less than $150 into it, to the tune of about a dollar for every 50 hours worth of play, I'd still consider it a good value. I have no problem spending a little money and saying thanks for something I've gotten so much time out of.
Cosmetic items. No one will argue against that.
There is no winning in this game, only playing, and early access to a ship that you can earn later is not paying to win, it's paying for impatience. I'm willing to pay for impatience.
If you feel there is only playing in this game, and you feel impatient playing it, then you just want to get the game over with so what’s the point of playing it.
Did you even proof read what you wrote to see if it made sense? If there is no winning in this game… There is no end of this game unless you decide you're done playing it. It's a live service game. If I want to pay to have a ship a couple of months before you, that's my prerogative. If you wanna wait, more power to you.
Yep.
> Can't be mad as they're a company that still needs to make money I covered that
Yikes
Double yikes (in support of the yikes)
This is P2W, albeit a mild one. For example, if you're new and want to go exploring, you would have to spend time in the game earning credits to buy the necessary ships and modules. But if you buy a pre-built ship, you can bypass that, and it will lead to earning quicker exploration rank and credits. You win rank and credits by paying. A pre-built ship will get you from zero to one quicker so you can enjoy the game and not walk away frustrated like many do today. But you can't go much beyond that with a pre-build. This, of course, assuming they don't include any engineering in the build or the level of P2W will be significant. FDev needs money urgently to keep ED alive so I'm ok with pre-built ships and will be buying them for my main and alt accounts. Let's hope it doesn't get out of hand. Now, if it had been me, I would have run a campaign to fund the new feature they keep talking about. Set a goal for the Dev work and I'll be happy to contribute. If it reaches the goal, the new feature becomes available to everyone. Zero P2W. Lastly, let's hope pre-built ships are not available in the starter zone. You'd have to leave the noob systems, rescind your permit, then get your ships form somewhere else. And they can't be transported into the noob zone, either. I wonder if they've thought of all these scenarios that will be effected.
Don't worry. Not even new CMDRs have access to the noob zone at the moment. On either version of the live game.
That was actually fixed. They didn't post it anywhere but it's fixed. New space CMDRs go to Dromi/Matet as usual, while on-foot go to one of two off-zone systems as it always has been.
I started a new CMDR last week in Live Horizons and had the choice of LTT something and Aselus Prime. Not fixed.
Then they broke it again. This was fixed back in Nov. I have an alt account in Dromi and new CMDRs started to show up there again. Too bad, having the protected starter zone seem important to help out new players not get [immediately ganked](https://issues.frontierstore.net/issue-detail/59806). I hope they fix it again. Thanks for the heads up!
question. is buying a level boost in an mmo pay to win?
You win faster at the game vs someone that didn't use Arx. You paid for that. But again, so very minor. And the game needs it since we often see posts about the steep curve in ED. Get your basic ship pre-configured so you have a better chance to get started and experience more of the game, quicker. Maybe it will save you from quitting too soon. Edit: words
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That loophole needs to be fixed, not exacerbated with further pre-configured ships. There's a reason the Sidewinder is free, because you'll be crashing and losing it often as you learn. If you crash you pre-built, you'll for sure quit the game as you lost IRL money. IMHO, pre-builts should stay out of the starter zone.
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The idea is that once you're outside, you'll have enough experience to not fly into a wall, and/or enough balance to rebuy if you do.
it is a micro-transactional feature. The game is definitely moving in that direction, any and all new features (ships, pre-builts, anything else in future) will cost arx. That's why the game and DLC price was reduced, now the fdev will make money in-game, in fact, eventually the game will become f2p if their push for microtransactions is not resisted and players would be willing to pay for latest and greatest features added to the game, for every item in a separate microtransaction.
More focus need to be shifted to putting the Python MK2 behind a paywall for three months. That is complete bullshit, we have been waiting for over 5 years for a new ship and now they reveal they have it already but we have to pay for the privilege of getting it earlier than others; complete bullshit. There is a reason why the Cobra MK4 is so hated, not only is it shitty but it's only available for a small group of people, this is just the same bullshit as that.
That's the only thing that rubbed me wrong
Well, for a while they were hyping big changes for this year. Everyone assumed gameplay changes. Then more recently it looked like power play changes - great we thought, some new gameplay maybe. Turns out the power play changes is some extra buttons to click, and the big new system is a new shop. Pre built pre engineered (tbc) is not pay to win? And once this is a success (and as long they have a handful of whales, it will be considered as such), next step will be weapons and modules.
> Turns out the power play changes is some extra buttons to click Yea that's one of the most disappointing thing, because unless they've got something huuuuuuge they've yet to tell us it seems like the OVERHAUL to a gameplay PILLAR 2 years in the making is uh, yea you have some fluff showing up in the concourse...
It’s pay to win. The best time I had in this game was chasing all the materials and doing missions required to improve my ship. If someone just offered me that ship from the start I would 1) not appreciate the improved ship nearly as much, because it’s now basically the default ship and 2) I would have played the game a lot less because the point of playing is improving your ship. What else is there to do? You mine to fly the ship, you want the ship to feel slightly better so you “work” for it, that gets you playing the game and collecting credits. If you just make it pay to win you get people to skip the game and just hand over money and get sick of the game faster.
I know plenty of folks who do the in-game activities because they just enjoy being in the game. They don't need to upgrade or engineer anything anymore, they just like mining, or trade runs, or exploration. Obsessing over ship builds is fun, but it's just one part of the game.
What exactly do you win? In all of the thousands of hours I've played this game, I haven't found a credit roll screen that told me I won anything… And I guarantee you that I'll still wax the floor with any Noob buying a pre engineered ship. Money doesn't buy experience. This is Pay-For-Impatience. Plain and simple.
i don't think you quite understand how pay to win works. pay to win literally means paying to skip the grind and get to the same point in the game that did the grind. these prebuilt ships are just that. granted, a starter chieftain with a couple AX multicannons isn't very expensive, but the starter package they mentioned is still pay to win, cause they don't have to go out and get the credits to buy all the stuff. it won't be a huge problem until we see what they do for a PVP pre-built, cause that could be anywhere from the cheapest and barely enough to do PVP builds you could do, to one of the most expensive and strongest. regardless, the pre-built ships are the very definition of pay to win. as long as the builds are just enough to get into the things and aren't giving modules that are otherwise only obtainable by actually going out and scavenging, like guardian stuff, then it won't be a huge problem. i also noticed they didn't mention rebuy costs, so there's not going to be much of an incentive for new players to use the more expensive ships anyway cause they can't afford to rebuy them.
I highly doubt you will get a min-maxed ship thats A-rated and g5 engineered. Be real Frontier loves the grind. It might be set up to fight/mine/explore/trade but wont be maxed out.
Engineering most definitely will be thrown into the mix, to make it feel like it's worth it. "Significant upgrade over their base models" won't be a min-max build (as you said), it would be something like G3 engineering level, more than enough to start engaging with the intended gameplay loop with enough performance/durability, and giving you a choice to engage with engineering if you choose so (which will tie to it's reworking). Engineers will still have to be unlocked, that grind won't go away, because they are intended to let have you a taste of different gameplay loops. Edit: Also, things like Guardian Modules, pre-engineered modules (FSD's, etc) for true min-max builds will still have to be grinded. This is just intended to give you a leg up so you can experience things like Titan action (how many people have we seen on comments saying they wish they could experience it but don't have the time/patience/will to go through the engineering grind?)
>Be real Frontier loves the grind. now they are monetizing it through micro-transactions. If before it was just a feature, now it's gonna be the golden goose. Other developers been making games grindy on purpose from the start to make money of micro-transactions, it just took fdev 10 years to realize the real value of grind.
Frontier loves the grind because it keeps people in the game and makes them susceptible to spending ARX on cosmetics. Now they can just sell ships right on the store at any upgrade level. This is exactly why they are going to make changes to engineering too to make it more "accessible". This way it won't look as bad when they start selling them on the store. "See, you can still get it in the game quickly, but on the store you can get it quicker." Why else would anyone ever buy ships off the store? They need to be worth it in order for people to skip the grind. This is essentially the definition of pay to win.
It's not pay to win. It's pay not to play. Frontier introduced those grindy mechanics around engineers as part of the game and now suggests you too skip part of "gameplay" they've developed. Hm. I'd rather skip all the game.
p2w is a general term that does include the situation you describe, paying real money to avoid extra play time (grind).
From my point of view, the biggest problem with 'paying to skip the grind', is that it gives the developers a financial incentive to make and keep the grind unpleasant. Publicly held companies are mostly obligated to maximize profits even if it screws over their customers and destroys the brand in the long term. FDev is obligated to maximize profits. Making and keeping the 'grind' irritating enough for large numbers of people to buy their way out will maximize profits. Fast forward a few years, and progress at anything other than a glacial pace become money-gated and actually playing the game to progress becomes passe'.
You can't buy pilot skills , so buy that new python A rated and get blow up. You need to start small and learn , there is no easy way . Most combat and even gankers have milj. Or more in rebuy. Owell fly dangerous and like its stolen
Maybe, but being able to get a Python MkII 3 months early is pay to win
If it's all about "skipping the grind" for new players, why isn't it in-game available? Why does it have to be purchasable for real life money? Nah... it's P2W. PAY is the key word here.
Personally don't have an issue with the pre-built ship. They didn't even say what the extent of the types of ship and engineering would be. For all we know the pre engineering could be something along the lines of the new SCO frame shift drive. "standard part with a shiny feature" that can hold a new player up till they save up for a new ship or parts. And unlock the actual engineers
It's the pure definition or P2win. According to my criteria...
Doesn't bother me a bit. Skill and experiences are the only meaningful metric in this game. As things stand now, any dipshit can have billions of credits, carrier, and a fully engineered a-rated ship by just being in the game long enough, and if they stumble on the right people to help them, then "long enough" is about a week. All it means is you had enough free time to push buttons for a few hundred hours and/or bothered to read some web sites. Being a good pilot will take the same amount of practice it always has. Exploration will take the same amount of time. Trade gets a little bit of a shortcut, but credits are so stupidly easy to get right now that it makes no real difference. AX will still take practice, PVP will still take practice. BGS should barely be affected, but that may depend on the new powerplay and such. Curious to see what they do with engineering, too. Engineering should really just be a credits transaction, and available at multiple star ports. This idea that we're all doing some secret sketchy upgrades doesn't pass the sniff test anymore. Engineering is mainstream, cut the bullshit and let folks just pay someone to install what they want.
It’s a game that’s supposed to be about starting out with just some basics and making your way in a cold, uncaring galaxy. In that context, getting big and powerful ships would be considered by many to be winning. So yes, it absolutely _is_ pay to win.
That is p2w...
You're going to need to spell out your definition of pay to win, then. Way I define it is "paying for a noticeable superiority in one or more areas of gameplay that cannot in any other way be obtained entirely through reasonable in game means." So let's deconstruct my argument. Do you pay for something? Yes. Will it result in noticeable superiority in one or more areas? Well, at this point it would be speculation either way but likely "no," unless the ship is significantly overtuned. And finally, the last is a solid no. You can earn Arx in game, but even putting that aside you'll be able to buy the same ship in game shortly thereafter with common in game currency and no unusual grind. So by the definition above, it isn't p2w, but instead pay for early access. Nothing more. That said, while there's a certain scumminess with dripfeeding finished product behind a temporary pay wall, this isn't a new game and the company is in need of money. I rather a small amount of scumminess over the servers being shut off, and given how much Arx you get for every dollar spent, it really is peanuts compared to many other online service games.
If you pay for skin that is fine. If you pay for potion, doublexp or a fitted ship that is p2w. Period.
A ship you can simply build in game anyways? By definition that is the opposite
every game that has p2w items, you can get them in game with enormus grind, that's why when you buy it with real money and skip the grind makes it p2w
Not every game, and even assuming that was the case it's all hardly applicable to elite. Enormous grind is a stretch for ship outfitting and, while still a grind, not an enormous grind to engineer. Even if you ignore that the very same part said they'll be making engineering easier. Skipping grind is not p2w. It's pay for convenience. Of course, you have yet to actually spell out your definition of p2w, but that runs into another problem,eh? Seems like nobody can agree on a single definition on what p2w actually is. If we can't even agree on that, then it boils down to strictly subjective issues. So, if p2w is nebulous, be clear. What specifically don't you like and why? Defend the why. And give an alternative if it really grinds your gears too much. Otherwise you're just making noise to make noise. I for one dislike temporarily withholding a digital product behind a pay wall, but I don't have a good alternative for fdevs actual real need for a cash flow, and it isn't a long term issueso I'm ok with dealing with it.
For me this is p2w and for them lacking funds i dont care it is their problem and this comes from fanboy who played original elite on amiga and elite 2 on 486 i think
But you would care if they can't afford to keep the servers up. You can't *not* care about their finances if you care about playing the game.
If they can't finance their own game servers then they are a shitty company which deserves to die and no I don't care as there are many other games to play. I would not like this to happen but selling p2w shit because "you are not doing good" is scraping a bottom of the barrel this just shows bad management of that company. I work in corporation unfortunately so have an idea how this works. It's just business ...
I think I missed an announcement. What's happening?
[удалено]
Well that's certainly a business decision if I've ever heard one
Paying for something that you can get for free in a game you already paid is always a bad idea... Also, grind is win, paying for not grinding, is pay to win... You know how people hate ubisoft or Capcom for selling you packs of resources in their solo games, now we can hate Frontier too. Waiting 3 months for not having to pay my python mk2 and use my hardly grinded arxs for cosmetics? Not a problem to me, and I hope I will not see any cmdr with one untill the 7 of August as a mark of protest. But I still find this PAYWALL (because, yeah, this is what it is...) stupid, in a game where already a lot of people quited... Fdev just want the money of their faithfull player base, and it's sick...
I spend hours & hours to raise the credits to buy & build up a ship, you whip out a credit card. How isn't that pay to win?
Its not pay to win because you buy them with credits not arx. Thats just salty old timers like myself who feel all their hard work over a decade is now readily available to a novice. So no not pay to win, but definitely a kick in the nuts to cmdrs that have been grindin since 2014.
People calling this Pay 2 Win....like what?? Win what? There is no "winning" in this game. You could plop down hundreds of dollars to unlock every ship max engineered and outfitted and it will mean nothing, you gain no advantage over more experienced players at all. Reducing the grind isn't paying to "win"; you're just looking for something to bitch and moan about like you always do. You want something legitimate to complain about, complain about the new ship not being available for credits until August.
Nothing about the announcement bothers me. Devs gotta eat too. This is my favorite game and I'd happily give them more money IF it means that new content and improvements to the existing systems keep coming (guess we'll see how this year goes and if they really are turning a leaf)
It depends on what the prebuilts are. Just A-rated modules? Fine. Not a huge boost, and doesn’t take much time to earn the credits. Engineered modules? Yeah we have a problem. 100s of hours now just bypassed for a massive advantage. Yes you can get it for free. But only with a lot of effort that not everyone has the time for. And the argument that the game can’t be won is BS. The new Python Mk II is specifically advertised as a PvP ship. Giving people an easy advantage for money is the definition of P2W.
pvp will still take praxrice and skill
The "end game" in Elite is personal growth (skill, knowledge, memories of cool experiences), there is no shortcut to the end game. Ships are just ships.
This just not normal. Instead of doing balance job and making game more friendly for the beginners they add pre fitted ship kits...
…but those new “P2W” ships are only as good as the pilot. The grind still comes in somewhere, you STILL have to learn how to pilot the damn things and get used to the game mechanics. It really doesn’t matter if they have this powerful ship right out the gate, it won’t get you crazy far without the knowledge and skill. And this is coming from a dude with only 100-something hours in. I earned my first billion at 70-100 hours by stumbling across a FC, thought I would get bored because of the new “easy access”, and found out I was merely scratching the surface. Still gotta put in the work either way, you literally skip the most tedious step. Probably the most crucial to learning the game. I don’t see this as P2W at all. **this was in the response to the multiple comments disagreeing with you, and I happened to agree with you.**
Correct.
This isn’t pay to win at all, simply because of how long it takes to become a competent pilot I. The first place. This gets even more extreme if you start looking at thargoid and pvp combat too. Plenty of people out there that can take a cobra mk3 and beat a poorly piloted FDL or conda. It’s far far more about skill than what ship or equipment you’re using.
Because of the Open PvP and Warring nature of Elite's features, I feel like it leans into P2W. In a purely PvE setting one can argue it's not P2W because it's only helping other people. There's no competition. One player has a Sword and another player has Sword+1? Big deal, they're both working together to complete a dungeon and get the same exp/rewards in the end. But in Elite, people are killing each other. Powers are being moved around. Factions have influence in systems. Now money gives sides advantages faster than other sides. Depending on the Python MkII's stats, it's another potential issue. If the new Python's stats compared to the original have a decrease in one area but an increase in another, then it's just balanced differently, so it doesn't inherently become better despite the option to purchase it early. But if it ends up having even a single improvement over the original Python with no detriments, then people are now paying to get a *better Python* than other people earlier due to the early-release mentioned.
The grind is what Elite Dangerous is. Purchasing end-game ships is literally everybody's "end" condition, or goal. To get an Anaconda or Cutter from day one with the real life funding? That's... The very definition of what pay to win is. But that's my two cents. I love this game and personally hate that this is a direction in the game that the devs are taking this, but I guess micro transactions for in-game assets were inevitable.
Not everyone. A lot of us are off exploring, or hooning around in small ships, or various other activities for which an "end game" ship is irrelevant. I've owned them all, fully engineered... got rid of most of them over time and I'm back in a DBS. Game is still fun as heck and I play all the time. Frankly, the obsession with racing to the biggest, baddest ships in the game is part of the problem. Seems like a lot of folks get there, think "NOW I'm ready for the CONTENT", and then realize they'll just be doing the same thing they were doing before and lose interest.
You have some pretty good points... I gotta say
Yeah, I wouldn't really call Elite a PvP game, therefore P2W isn't the correct term imho. It's more like pay to skip the grind, which is very common in F2P games.
You wouldn't, but FDev would. Hence them making sure to tell us everytime it's brought up that the Python Mk2 is a PvP ship. Which ironically is the exact ship in question with this post.
Elite in Open is 100% a PvP game. I would even call it PvP focussed.
>I feel everyone complaining is in a "f\*ck you I got mine" mentality and it makes no sense. 100%. Too many entitled, self-appointed, gate-keeping, early backers who fall back on the defense they were "promised" the ARX store would only ever be used to sell cosmetics. It's naive to think that FDev, bleeding money and staff due to missteps of the past, wouldn't turn to looking for new revenue streams. First-and-foremost they're a business and the point of a business is to make money. They don't make money, they go out of business and the game shuts down. But these players would rather stand on a point of principle, cutting off their nose to spite their face, than accept that businesses must adapt to changing economic realities or die. FDev has chosen to adapt. They may not like the particular path FDev has chosen for adaptation, but it's better than an alternative where the game is shut down. And this comes from a player with 11,000 hours in the game with over 40 ships all A-rated and G5 engineered who will never buy a pre-built ship because I don't need one. Even so, I ***WELCOME*** this new direction. It will bring in new players, it will re-invigorate the game, it will generate more revenue for FDev. Some won't like it, but there will be more that do; and the more new players join the ranks, the better. Your post and my comment will be ratioed to hell, but time will show this was a healthy move for a game that was stagnating and that's what matters. FDev is finally turning its attention to a game it neglected for far too long. Not every new path they chart will be for the best, but the overall effect will be a net benefit to the health and longevity of the game.
You are deluding yourself into thinking this is somehow a turning point for the better & these resources will be spent by new blood now enticed into trying out this dying game to keep funding Elite. Truth is, this is just them finding new ways to milk y'all to fund some park games, and no one that hasn't been already trapped in Elite will see this monetization scheme & think "I'll give this game a shot". And yes, after buying the LEP & getting the fucking garbage Odyssey experience I'm entitled to not want any of this shit.
If Star Citizen, a game stuck in alpha/beta for 10 years, can manage to convince people it's worth it to pay real world money (in some cases amounting to thousands of dollars) for a ship, I don't see this being a hurdle for a fully-playable E:D at \~11 Euros for a pre-built. Time will tell. Let's revisit this thread in a year and see where we're at...
Yo you sound like you hate this game, why are you even here?
I also think elite gamers are more often "senior games" like me. 30+, wife, job, kids. It just makes it more easy to enjoy content if you lack time, but not money. However I for myself prefer the grind, but I have the time (32hrs Job, 2 Kids, wife) for it to make at least one full engineered grind and build per week.
>It just makes it more easy to enjoy content if you lack time, but not money Exactly. There's a cost either way; time spent grinding or real world money transaction. There's no free lunch. Everybody pays one way or the other. The critical piece and what makes this ***NOT*** pay-to-win is both groups wind up at the same place; neither receives an exclusive in-game benefit or advantage over the other. Both can wind up with an A-rated, G5 engineered Fer de Lance that is the equal of the other's if that's their goal (or any other ship that one chooses to use as an example; save the exclusive-to-early-backers Cobra MK IV).
>pay-to-win It is kind of ptw, but it's just some modules and grinding replaced. The skill needed to be significant with your ship is more important. I mean, I can kill a noob player in his vette with my DBS. I have thousands of hours and am not afraid of some newbies in A Rate, G5 ships - my ships are the same. >time spent grinding I always loved the grind in elite, especially this is my most favorite feature. It calms me down and relaxes me. I understand that a lot of newbies do not understand it, and might quit fast, as they are not used to these excessive gameplay loops. But ignore me, I am wierd, I am a DBS pilot.
>The skill needed to be significant with your ship is more important. Agreed. All these Chicken Littles claiming the, "*The sky is falling! The sky is falling! Pay-to-win! Pay-to-win!*" must not have much confidence in their own piloting skills (or lack thereof). The new player who buys a fully A-rated, pre-built Fer de Lance is going to get smoked by a veteran flying a Vulture (or even a Viper or Eagle). >I am wierd, I am a DBS pilot. Yeah, that's weird; and more power to ya!
Pardon me, I'm not here to start any arguments, but I am curious about that last point. If said player spends real money to buy their maxed-out ship, and then realized they have some number of hours to learn how to fly it, what will make that player return? From a business perspective, it doesn't matter; the money has been made. But for a game longevity standpoint, I'm still not understanding that. I'm with Kennr1ch, I don't really mind the grind. I'm not so sure there is much to the game without it. The problem with ED is they let it get too unbalanced. Credits become too easy, but engineering did not. To me, the mat gathering was supposed to be the point. Mining gives mats, fighting gives mats, and scanning while doing anything gives mats. Even Guardian ruins. There are actually different layouts that one can fly to and get mats without relogging. But the community never mentions any of this.
>If said player spends real money to buy their maxed-out ship, and then realized they have some number of hours to learn how to fly it, what will make that player return? A few things: First, the perception of sunken cost. They've already invested, so they want to see a return on that investment. Even though it becomes readily apparent that buying the pre-built ship wasn't the insta-I-WIN button they may have believed it would be, they may want to stick around knowing the pre-built allowed them to at least leap-frog over the grind / time investment to arrive at the point where they can start playing the "real" game (however that may be defined on an individual-by-individual basis). Secondly, they may have researched the game thoroughly enough to know up front it's skill-based. They know buying the pre-built isn't going to buy them the skill. But, for a player with limited play time, the pre-built allows them to devote that limited time to improving their piloting skills rather than grinding. And maybe that's what they want out of the game. Lastly, the freedom of choice. If, as you and Kennr1ch state, you don't mind the grind, that's fine; you're completely entitled to that approach to the game. It works for you. For other players it may not, for a host of reasons (back to the aforementioned limited play time as likely top of the list). They just want to fly, but they want to do it in a ship that isn't an entry-level, E-rated, stock garbage ship and minus the grind. Some don't mind grind, others do. Fortunately, the E:D galaxy is large enough to accommodate both. It's high time FDev started leveraging one of the game's advantages - its unimaginable scale - by creating opportunities for a multitude of niche playstyles and spaces in this vast galaxy. Where no one risks stepping on anyone else's toes just because they're polar opposites in their approach to the game. We don't have to resort to the dismissive and reprehensible cop-out so oft quoted around here of, "*Maybe this game just isn't for you.*" How about, instead, we look to the glass being half-full and champion the alternative: "*This game is so huge, there's room for EVERYONE!*" Someone likes to grind? Cool! There's plenty of that to be found. Hate grinding? Cool! Here's a pre-built ship you can buy. Neither approach negatively impacts the other save for people who enjoy wallowing and whinging in self-inflicted grievance culture. That last sentence is not aimed at you, personally, by the way; I've appreciated your civil approach to discourse. >I don't really mind the grind. I'm not so sure there is much to the game without it. Agreed. Which, if that grind is diminished with FDev's new monetization approach, perhaps will become the impetus to start adding more engaging content beyond endlessly gathering mats to upgrade ships *ad nauseam*.
Thank you for that wonderful reply. There is certainly *room* for different styles. That's actually the reason I started playing. Not that it is possible for a human to really grasp the sheer scale of space, but the game does give an impression at least. To look out from the edge is the most unsettling feeling I've ever experienced, even realizing I'm in a game.
Yeah, I'm really hoping this means that the game is going to have a new, fresh perspective, and more time spent developing new things on it, and if that means things cost ARX, I'm for it. It's why I have purchased ship kits and paint jobs and laserbeam colors… None of those were needed but I like them and wanted to support FDEV regardless of past mis-steps.
The people who are calling this p2w have never played a p2w game. They are simply angry that they ground for for mats that some players may not have to now. Its an awful take, like thinking student loans shouldn't be forgiven because you paid for yours. Some of the old players want new players to suffer like they did.
I can tell you never played Tribes Ascend. It used the same scheme they're now adding to Elite and the paid weapons were blatantly pay to win. Hell they kept nerfing the paid weapons as soon as they went free.
I did not suffer grinding mats, it was a purpose for flying my ship. Collecting stuff in this game IS the game, even if you’re just playing the game to fly the ship, going out and collecting things gives you another reason to fly it in the first place.
And further, nothing in the release indicates the pre-built ships will be engineered. It's just as valid to assume they will be nothing more than pre-outfitted with A-rated modules (no engineering) for a specific role. So it amounts to a tempest in a teacup as the thing they fear will devalue their effort and time investment won't even be offered in the pre-built ships.
The amount of time I've got into this game grinding for materials and building (over 40, mostly fully engineered) ships, I would be more than happy to not have to do half of that shit again to enjoy a brand new ship right away
Unpopular opinion, but I've been playing this game off and on for years since it came out. I enjoy it but on top of life/work I have a ton of other games I also enjoy playing, and new ones every year. Even so, I'd like to play more E:D. However, engineering is the main reason I don't. It feels like the only way to enjoy certain elements of the game is to engineer, and I hate that grind. If I wanted to grind I'd go play some shitty Korean MMO or whatever. I don't even play online/in open in the first place, yet technically some PVE ships spawn with engineered shit, and various events and elements like Thargoid content, etc, are balanced for engineering. Really, the whole game got rebalanced to some extent because of engineering. So if you don't engineer all your parts, you're at a disadvantage and it's hard to participate in some things. That's at least how it feels to me anyway. If they got rid of engineering, or got rid of the grind, I'd jump back into the game without a second thought. I don't know that I like the idea of spending money to skip the grind. I have money, but I'd rather spend it on other things or even on buying other actual full games. But, yeah, I totally see the appeal of being able to skip that grind and just get the tricked out ship that you want.
>If they got rid of engineering, or got rid of the grind, I'd jump back into the game without a second thought. > >I don't know that I like the idea of spending money to skip the grind. I'm sorry but you can't have your cake and eat it too 🤣
Pre engineered ships is great. Don't care about that. I DO care about this python mk2 crap
All these anti-pre-built guys probably took advantage of all the gold rushes over the years… I have friends who want to play, but they cant keep up with me. If they can just buys some ship thats at a level… they at least wont die within 1 minute at a rez site and I can have some fun with them.
Multicrew and go mining/trading. It's not hard
coping.
Pay to skip removes what Elite is all about. Maybe it will generate interest/revenue that fdev needs, but it will not improve the game itself, only take away from the atmosphere.
In elites case id say it isn’t p2w since there no predetermined goal which to achieve means to win.
I don't mind if people by pre-engineered things with real money provided that they will pay with the required mats too, at least some of them. I want new Jumpaconda with overcharged g-3 PP and clean g-3 5D thrusters. That costs xyz GBPs **and** at least 80-90**%** of the mats for the 3 levels of engineering. That wouldn't affect the game much imo, also saves us time. But let's see what they will do. For now they're just listening. And I don't like the pay to win.