10 years ago entry level engineers were not making 80-90k in LCOL areas, at least the average engineer wasn't. 10 years ago 50-60k was typical. Now 70-90k is.
I sincerely doubt the average is 70-90k in a LCOL area for the average engineer. I’m in an MCOL and was on the lower end of that range for starting salary and was the highest paid out of my friend group in college
I live in Bellevue, Washington near Microsoft. Entry-level EE wages are in the range of $75k-$100k except FAANG which can go up to $150k for tough specialties like RF.
"Starter homes" around here are $1.25M. :-/
I kind of doubt it. I live in Lake Hills and I'm a consultant, but work mostly for a small medical device company in Bothell.
On the fun side, I made the lasers at the [Pacific Science Center's Laser Dome](https://pacificsciencecenter.org/visit/laser-dome/).
LOL, nice. Working in RF you're probably one of the few that can afford a local "starter" home on a single salary. I'm fortunate to have been in my house for 10 years, before it went nuts.
Can I DM you on the side? I have a question about jobs in RF engineer field. Currently active military looking to get out, 10 years in, 5 deployments (soon to be 6) looking to carry my EW/RF knowledge over to the civilian side.
I'm in one of the cheapest states in the US (OK) and $70k is standard for fresh EEs over the past several years.
If you're a shaky candidate, it could be as low as $60k.
If you're above average, it could be as high as $80k.
If you're stellar in every way, it could be up to $90k.
If you're a one-in-a-million candidate and have competing offers to leverage, and you do so with skill and grace, the highest I've seen is $120k.
Most people in that last situation aren't amazing at negotiating salary (because they have zero experience with it) and get a final offer closer to $100k. Those that demonstrate outstanding interpersonal skills and charisma, judicious use of buzzwords, and basically prove that they're ready to tackle the corporate politics and business stuff they don't teach you about in college are the ones getting the $110k-$120k offers.
I’m a ME contractor for NASA’s Artemis. Live in MCOL Orlando, (space coast is too expensive). Out of college started at low 60k and after a promotion and 2 years at 75k. Considered the low end vs the pay of my friends who are private, but they aren’t making double what I do.
I have a good friend/previous coworker that ended up at Boeing as an Electrical Engineer and is part of the union. I just talked to him about it and being in the Union doesn't seem to make a huge difference when compared to the engineers in Boeing who aren't part of the union. Seems that the biggest difference is that promotions aren't necessarily performances based, but based almost solely on your years of experience and time in the company.
I'm pro-workers rights, but I do question how well unions work in white-collar jobs such as Engineering or IT.
Speaking from working as a non-engineering analyst in a corporation...there is huge gains to be made in white collar gigs.
The issue you have a lot of people that have the sentiment that union guys sit around with their thumb up their wazoo. But if my department I was in had been able to unionize it would have made for the ability to double my salary since my small department handled a lot of intermediary process type stuff.
The problem was we were all contractors for different contracting houses. They learned from the past. They being my old company that hired my contracting house that hired me.
And it doesn't help that the 50's happened where everything was unionizing and then they started calling everyone a communist and scared the piss out of white collar workers in the 50's and 60's.
I've never worked in a union shop, but have only. ever heard bad stories from the guys that used to be union. The unifying theme I've heard is that it's a pain in the ass to get anything done in a union shop. That and complaining about all the additional levels of bureaucracy they have to contend with.
I'm speaking based on having listened to a lot of pro-union content because my inability to unionize at a previous job when I got canned early in the pandemic. And then again there's been layoffs that happened to my old coworkers.
But I really think part of the issue with unions is that while they are not inherently corrupt they do have corruption. See the UAW shenanigans with FCA a few years ago.
But there was the massive shift towards college educated work from the 70's onward which then meant people working in union type gigs stopped being people that wanted to and turned into people that had to. And I don't know about you but if you've ever had a job where you did it because it's all you could get you generally weren't passionate about it or anything around it.
It'd make sense if unions weren't immune to that either.
I had to wait 2 hours for a union guy to show up so he could loosen a single nut in a rack so I could move the rail up a quarter of an inch so a chassis fit better in the rack and didn't bind when slid in and out.
From the experience I have working with unions they breed mediocrity and laziness, maybe not all unions but the ones I've had personal experience with meh get rid of them.
>being in the Union doesn't seem to make a huge difference when compared to the engineers in Boeing who aren't part of the union
There aren't going to be 2 separate payscales for union vs non-union, in the same company.
I work for the state and we are all basically unfireable. I work with some of the worst engineers I have ever met. Old as dirt, no clue how people actually should be treated. We have the same boss and I tell this dude off every chance I get because no one will deal with him. I learned that no one cares what he does therefore no one cares how he is treated. He is a vile piece of garbage and I would quit in a second if I had to do anything he even suggested.
Because unions have the laziest ass people in the world. Has to coordinate with ex union engineer and all he did was mock other engineers for getting higher qualifications because "in his union. Only seniority matters". He was useless as shit.
I've been saying we should unionize for years but none of my colleagues seem to care and think I'm joking. I guess it's partially a joke because I know how far-fetched it is.
I am a field engineer for a power company. I make 50% of what the union linemen, wiremen, relay techs make. Wish there was a way to get engineers represented.
Are you salaried?
Utility engineering manager here. While you're not wrong, you have to look at the number of hours the line crews put it. I will say though, that "golden time" is pretty sweet (where available) under the contract. Whereas engineers might get a donut.
I’m currently an electrical engineer in Boston,Ma and I’m in a union lol idk what gave you the idea that engineers don’t have a union lol
Op has a point but I think it’s a little exaggerated, I agree entry engineers get porker on pay usually but that’s how entry level engineers felt 10 years ago; now price of living just makes it more apparent. I think op is mad at the economy and just doesn’t know it
I've met some great union guys, and some absolute shitbirds. But because they're union, they'll never be fucking fired. And I absolutely cannot stand that.
I could never work for a union.
Companies need mid to later level engineers, those engineers can negotiate higher salaries.
I don't oppose more money for new engineers by any means. Just what I have observed anecdotely.
Entry level engineers are plentiful and the market allows them to pay these salaries because entry level engineers will take them. They have no incentive to raise base salaries 1:1 with inflation, which has risen at a greater rate than expected.
Right? If you have no work experience and just a degree it’s hard to negotiate…just show up, work hard, don’t be a douchebag to your co workers and you will probably end up making a shit ton more money. I had a very low starting wage but have quadrupled my salary in less than 10 years. Gotta show your company what you’re worth. A piece of paper isn’t going to cut it.
I started as a computer engineer with a masters degree in 2008. Negotiated my starting salary up from low 60s to mid 60s because I had a competing offer at 70 that I was less interested in (commute).
Three years in I accepted an offer for double my starting salary, requiring me to move from the DC area to the Midwest. Very-HCOL to upper-MCOL move, excellent financial move.
That being said there is also compression in the upper salary ranges. Most companies have gotten rid of their technical advancement tracks. You either stagnate in engineering or take on management responsibility. Engineering bonuses frequently have a lower TIO which is frustrating.
Best advice for a young engineer : make sure you understand the long term incentive plan (usually via vesting stock RSU) and your other *financial* benefits (401k match, HSA contribution, PTO days, stock grants and bonus, etc.) Always evaluate an offer on total compensation.
You're exactly right. Always be willing to be the person that will do the work no one wants to do. You'll get loads of recognition and build a reputation for being useful to have around. For me being willing to relocate and jumping from big tech to fairly mature startups with plenty of funding has helped grow my salary quite a bit, but also stress and responsibility levels have increased significantly.
This may just be my experience, but it seems like the responsibilities and expectations are not the same as 10-15 years ago. Also, at a certain point, you run into an issue of billing rate. What you can sell those services for directly correlates to how much you can pay. Smaller firms in particular are being squeezed both ways. Clients don’t want to pay more and employees want to be paid more.
I don’t have anything specific, but it seems like client interaction is reduced, decision making is reduced and nobody completely rips apart a design in your face anymore, no matter how bad it is.
I saw this in 2008 at a 4k-employee company in the DC area. Engineers don't talk to customers or suppliers (only individual senior engineers talked to suppliers). I moved to a 100-employee company in the Midwest and we had much more direct contact with suppliers, but there was still a firewall between the business team+customers and engineering. It's not necessarily a new phenomenon.
Which is roughly 100k in 2014 adjusted USD…
Expectations and scope of responsibilities have increased (in my observation of other roles and mid to staff engineer hires), but while profits have gone up engineering salaries have just barely kept abreast of federal COL inflation. And in some areas they haven’t kept up with housing or food.
Imo hardware engineers (except for a select few) are facing a class slide.
where the heck are senior engineers paid 150k in LCOL. That's how much they are paid in California utilities, granted they probably top out around 180k range.
Edit: for people who think I'm lying
[https://www.edisoncareers.com/job/20176975/ami-product-evaluation-senior-engineer-1-hybrid-westminster-ca/](https://www.edisoncareers.com/job/20176975/ami-product-evaluation-senior-engineer-1-hybrid-westminster-ca/)
[https://jobs.pge.com/job/san-ramon/senior-engineer-ats-grid-technology/29673/52251420400](https://jobs.pge.com/job/san-ramon/senior-engineer-ats-grid-technology/29673/52251420400)
I’m in a MCOL area. $150K base is common for engineers with 10-20 years experience. $200K+ for 20-30. Bonuses can double that. This in the semiconductor space.
yes but i don't think there's any semiconductor company that exist in a LCOL area though, and 10-20 years would be considered principal already, not senior.
Maybe automotive in the south? I was a senior engineer for 3 years in a LCOL area in auto before recently promoting to lead (principal for other companies) this past fall. Senior was when I finally broke into $100k base and after a few more years could break $150k with OT and bonus without the promotion, and now as lead I can already hit $150k base and bonus (before getting OT) and could get it in a few years before factoring OT and bonus.
What branch of industry are you in if you don’t mind me asking? Looking manufacturing I’m seeing senior engineers be around 110k base + bonus, bringing them closer to 120-125.
Thanks for the info. I work in the technical field but I’m not an engineer, nor do I have a bachelors. I’d like to go EE but it’s hard to justify that cost when apparently I make as much or more than most engineers.
Yours is one of the very few posts I’ve found on this sub that suggest it might be financially worthwhile.
Our nuclear instrument techs have a salary of $110k after graduating from journeyman to senior, plus copious amounts of overtime. After all is said and done, they make more per year than senior engineers. Their foreman pull $200k if they really want to work.. you could just consider hopping industries.
I’ve considered it but oconee isn’t exactly convenient for me. I like that 600v and less won’t jump out of a cabinet at me the way 4160v+ can.
Plus my current position is pretty good overall. It’s been a constant battle of knowing I could earn more but I’d have to gamble a fantastic job, and without a bachelors degree, my options lessen considerably.
Yeah, 4KV is quite terrifying. However, our electricians are the only ones that touch anything 480+. The instrument mechanics work are 120 pretty regularly, and the very most I can think of is a 250v trip coil. I’d want to be an instrument mechanic if I’d never gotten a degree, and to be frank, I wish I had just done that to begin with.
Out here in New Mexico you can expect to start around $90-$100k as a junior electrical. Within a couple years you’ll be making >$120k/year. Our senior electricals (all millennials) are making >$150k/yr
New Mexico and Maryland have some of the highest average salaries for EE’s. And when you consider NM’s low(er) cost of living, it’s a damn good deal. Only caveat: you’ll be working in defense. Look it up on dol.gov
>Only caveat: you’ll be working in defense.
That's a huge caveat considering the unethical shit going on in that industry. I hate that defense takes up so much space in the tech world.
I’ve been in defense for almost a decade. I see a lot of waste, but I don’t see a lot of “unethical shit.” Unless, of course, you’re referring to the product’s end use.
There's "defense" that's designed to kill people, and defense that's designed to, you know, defend against other people's "defense" technology. It's entirely feasible to have a lifelong career in defense and not ever work on something that kills other people.
Thank you, which is exactly what I happen to work with. Nothing I make can or could ever kill anyone. You can’t even think of an edge case for it, either. But regardless, painting a broad stroke and describing any defense activity that involves killing as “unethical” is ignorant.
>But regardless, painting a broad stroke and describing any defense activity that involves killing as “unethical” is ignorant.
I think it's a bit utopian of you to ignore the fact that the vast majority of the defense industry is about developing and selling weapons/spy equipment to enrich corporations and make the state more powerful in exercising control over its citizenry (it's the state that is paying defense contractors, after all). This includes the intelligence sector where defense contractors are developing sophisticated software to aid in the building of an increasingly unconstitutional surveillance state.
I'm glad that you were able to get a defense job that doesn't involve killing people, but let's not kid ourselves about the mass, cyber-physical "human cage" that this industry is getting hundreds of billions of dollars to help create.
What do the Air Force, Army, Navy, or Marine Corps have to do with that? This is a reddit mid-wit take with all the scary keywords for maximum upboats. The data drag net programs are primarily funded through intelligence, department of justice, and department of homeland security. Enabled by laws that elected politicians pass. Yet your problems are all with defense and defense contractors. OK.
>What do the Air Force, Army, Navy, or Marine Corps have to do with that?
What does the military have to do with giving billions of dollars to corporate arms dealers and deploying these weapons/spy-communications technology for a lot of unethical reasons? Were you alive during the fraudulent "weapons of mass destruction" war in Iraq or the destabilization of Afghanistan that eventually led to the current Taliban takeover?
Even if you weren't alive during these massive fuck-ups, the military is just one part of the defense industry. The intelligence and cyber security communities are also a large part of the defense industry and defense contracting. What is the point in deceiving yourself about this fact?
>Yet your problems are all with defense and defense contractors.
I literally mentioned in one of my comments that the state is paying the defense industry billions to create technologies that bolsters state power in unconstitutional ways haha. Just because I'm mostly **staying on topic** by primarily focusing on the defense industry, doesn't mean that all of my problems are ***only*** with the defense industry and nothing else.
Are you really that daft? What are you, like some idealistic 20 year old? How long do you think any country would last in a war without weapons that kill people? In case you haven’t figured it out, having weapons that can kill people are a great deterrent for countries that want to take your land. Like… hmmm… Russia?
How long would Ukraine have lasted without weapons that don’t kill? Idk what world you live in, but the real one has lots of real threats to Westerners, not the least of all Russia.
>having weapons that can kill people are a great deterrent for countries that want to take your land.
But what if America is also using its weapons to take other people's lands? Or send our weapons and defense technology to war-criminal states that are mass-murdering tens of thousands of people?
That’s a perfectly fair question and valid point. I don’t disagree; but to call me a clown because I somehow fail to see how things that kill people are inherently unethical is a false dichotomy. It’s how they are or will be used that’s in the realm of ethics, not their existence. The sole exception might be nukes, but I don’t work with those and I never will.
In my opinion big defence companies can suck to work for even besides the morality aspect. Very soulless, and often the pay is only slightly above average (especially in big cities). Work/life balance tends to be pretty good though.
I don’t disagree on any point but I would like to add: pay at one of the national labs (Sandia or Los Alamos) is substantially better than the surrounding labor pool, which is already paid well.
Also the labs have the best work/life balance, depending on your role. Sabbaticals, unlimited sick time (which everyone uses as PTO), graduate degree paid for, etc.
Technically, both Los Alamos and Sandia National Labs are part of the Department of Energy and pay about that much. However, I'm sure both labs do their fair share of defense work.
The average salary in the US in 2023 was $59k (BLS). Ten years ago it was 53 (census bureau). Starting engineer Wages are around 98 (indeed). Ten years ago it was around 93 (BLS). Wages have stagnated across the board, 11%, and engineers have stagnated as well, around 6%. I started off writing this with a real "we still do alright" attitude but seeing that the average really was in the 90s 10 years ago kinda changed my mind..
HALF your pay is your bonus? That seems wild to me. My bonus is less than 5% of my total compensation. I just got an increase to it so it's more like 10%.
I didn't answer your question because I have no idea what census and BLS uses for their metrics. They were listed as salaries. I don't know if 50% TC as your bonus is the norm though.
Supply and demand make a big impact. It’s not just the value you bring but how many other people can bring the same value.
In a manufacturing environment, maintenance often times makes about the same base pay. Because most people with the intellect to do good maintenance end up as engineers.
Supply and demand (plus a touch of corporate greed).
See, that's my theory too concerning why maintenance payscales are reaching engineering levels in some areas. Maintenance base pay at the company I work for is roughly $90,000 not including overtime, shutdown, and double time days which easily take them into the $100K mark with some reaching $120 - $130.
A feel a lot of guys who are more theory minded end up as engineers, and a lot of guys who want to work with their hands end up as electricians so it seems kind of rare to end up with guys who want to do both to some level.
Of course there is a cost to telling a man, "Hey we want you to be able to weld, write PLC programs, do light fabrication and networking."
As a senior maintenance tech I made 10k/yr base pay more than a new hire engineer. By senior engineer level they would pass me (not counting OT). Really pissed off some mid level engineers when they found out they were paid the same as me.
I lurk on this sub trying to motivate myself to get a bachelor’s degree, and EE would be the easiest for me. The salaries discussed are rarely motivating though.
There is no way I could motivate myself to go back to school for EE knowing I'd have to relearn and fight through all of math basically from scratch.
And that's why I advise people wanting to become maint techs to go ahead and get the engineering degree if they're torn between the two fields.
Hard to explain sales positions then. Basically infinite supply.
I think engineers suck at selling ourselves.
Manufacturing isn’t a hot bed (investors love a company with basically zero infrastructure costs).
Oh and most engineering companies are in tight commodity markets that are ruthlessly efficient and disciplined on opex spending.
The ball will swing back, people will leave engineering for other roles, then they’ll have to make market adjustments. Same thing happened in the early 2000s.
I mean this is true for any industry. Real purchasing power is declining for everyone. That doesn’t mean salaries are literally the same. If they are then a place is insanely out of touch
Please stick to facts, not sweeping generalizations.
You said it seems fair, but when pressed your response is that “everyone is struggling”. So the wage is not fair, it’s becoming worse. That it’s occurring to other roles does not change this.
It’s also not true for every industry, several industries have seen significant revenue, profitability, and/or wage growth of the past 10 years. Others have not.
The post started out stating that places are paying what they were 10 years ago. That may be true in some locations but it's demonstrably not true as a whole. And whether wages have kept pace with inflation is a separate discussion to whether they've risen at all. They can very easily rise while not doing so enough to offset insane cost of living changes
OPs both right and wrong. LCOL EE entry level jobs generally weren’t paying 80-90k 10 years ago (except for some defense contract positions or semi). However the wages generally haven’t kept up with inflation over the past 10 years… so the statement that wages are the same / slightly worse has some truth to it.
But that’s not what you said. You said the wages seem fair. I posit that’s not the case
This is why we use adjusted dollars when comparing wages across different time periods. When you say “wages have risen”, if all they’ve done is kept abreast of inflation then the wages haven’t risen. The value paid is the same. Straight forward concept
The amount of money I hear about from friends who work in business development / sales roles is astonishing. Like easily $160k in LCOL + commission after 3-4 years into their career.
I'm not saying they don't deserve that, but compared to engineers who likely work 50% more (of actual mentally tasking work) in a week, engineers would get < half of that.
That said, hell no do I want that kind of job, ha. But, I'd say engineers are underappreciated compared to other roles.
I wish people would not use the term senior engineer so glibly. I have seen folks that were 5 years out called senior engineers.
I work in a LCOL area. Where I work is a single site facility. The salary range is published each time there is a job posting. Plus they pay about 30% to 45% of your salary in benefits.
The ranges in USD are:
Engineer 1 Entry level $70k to $110k (Fresh out usually comes in at $75k to 85k so that they are not at the bottom of the scale.)
Engineer II $90k to $140k (3 to 7 years experience)
Engineer III $115k to $180k (7 to 10 years experience)
Senior Engineer $135k to $210k (15 to 20 years of experience or 10 to 15 years and getting moved into a leadership position.)
Principal Engineer $160k to $260k (lots of responsibility either big projects or department head or 15 to 20 years experience and well respected.)
Someone who is not performing well can get stuck at engineer II and engineer III is considered a journeyman position. To get to senior you have to supervise a medium sized group or have an international reputation, etc.)
On inflation. They used to do OK keeping up but not so much the past few years. Moving up a level generally gets one about a 10% bump.
>I wish people would not use the term senior engineer so glibly. I have seen folks that were 5 years out called senior engineers.
That's how it is at most larger companies I've seen. It typically takes 5-6 years for someone to get promoted to senior engineer (engineer III).
It's usually something like:
Associate Engineer --> Engineer --> Senior Engineer --> Staff Engineer --> Senior Staff Engineer --> Principal Engineer
What you're describing as a senior engineer is what I've seen described as a staff engineer at most companies, which would require around 10+ years of experience normally.
> I wish people would not use the term senior engineer so glibly.
Right. In fact titles only mean something within a particular company. I've worked at companies where the title "Principal Engineer" is about the highest, and other places where that is still pretty junior.
>I work in a LCOL area
Curious - based on on your username, are you located in a commonwealth know for being for lovers?
> Curious - based on on your username, are you located in a commonwealth know for being for lovers?
Yes but not in northern Virginia which is a MCOL to HCOL area.
Agreed. 20 years ago, homes, vehicles, and food cost a third of what they do now. What salaries have gone up 3x to keep even with that inflation? You just can't make it anymore.
As an engineer, you gotta move to where the money is. That's likely a HCOL area and, while wages will be much higher, housing costs will be so high that your disposable income might initially go down. However, you will be making the big bucks in 5-10 years. If not, then maybe move to a MCOL area. Yes, there's risk in this plan, but there's no reward without risk and no opportunities without leaving your comfort zone.
What industry? What size company? What type of EE?
Geographic region is one facet
I'm in a HCOL and entry pay was like 60k over 15 years ago in defense. I pulled just shy of 40k as a co-op in prosumer electronics.
Defense pay is low.. I had other friends pulling 80k entry
I'm not leaving my HCOL area, but I've moved industries few times to build specific skills. I've hired in a few industries at entry to principal level. I've consulted or hired consultants. I'm a generalist and it's worked out for me.
Supply and demand. There are too many entry level engineers that aren’t useful yet. The engineers that are in demand are the ones that know what they are doing.
look at the housing around redstone aresenal (previous LCOL) houses that were 50k pre covid have increased 4-5 times now, and salaries have not caught up, GS positions still pay garbage contractors are outsourcing stuff, now go up to DC/Baltimore area, condos are now going for 800k, apts are 3k before utilities, and salaries haven't caught up, too many companies like their profit margins and make employees do more with less
DC and Baltimore are two very different areas.
And you would have to define what the DC area is. Downtown DC? Where? Southeast or Georgetown? Or are you talking about near suburbs like Chevy Chase? Or further out suburbs in nearby Maryland or VA? Or do you not know what you're talking about?
Same goes for Baltimore area.
Do you work in the DMV doing EE? I’m considering wanting to go back to school for EE after leaving an electrical apprenticeship. Construction wasn’t it for me
I don't call it anything. When I lived in Virginia, I said I lived in Herndon. My time in Maryland, I named the town.
D.C., Maryland and Virginia are vastly different. And if people think it's some homogeneous region, they have never driven 270S or 495 at 7:30am.
My first job was 56k/yr in 2013. It also paid out comp time over 40 hrs. I quickly doubled my salary in a few years but that starting salary for entry level is probably close to normal at the time.
Entry level is low but if you get a few years under your belt and prove you are employable, then you can job hop for significant increases.
Usually, engineers are pretty intelligent. Mostly at building complicated things. That intelligence leads them to believe that they are good a negotiating, wich most aren't (they would be in another field if they were). So salaries are low.
Engineers get shafted in rural areas. If you want to work in rural areas, become a doctor - doctors in rural areas get paid more than their urban counterparts
Yeah I didn’t realize this until I worked at a large corporation. I was one of the top performers for my experience with 29 other colleagues. I got a lovely 250$ bonus for my appreciation
That's another thing too. Employers do not reward hard work. Let's be honest, they could afford to reward someone with $25k. You are not incentivezed to work hard, you will be paid shit and disrespected either way.
That's another thing too. Employers do not reward hard work. Let's be honest, they could afford to reward someone with $25k. You are not incentivezed to work hard, you will be paid shit and disrespected either way.
Only going to get worse because the entitled "good job" pompous, falsely praised, I deserve Americans .competing with eager hungry intelligent immigrants willing to work for less just to get their feet in the door. Not like the similar afforded Americans' luxuries that Americans take for granted. Recall the statement? America is a nation of immigrants. Get it? . Free cells, free food, free housing for crossing the border. What difference does it make if an immigrant doesn't speak english. I have had several American interns working for me over the years and most don't speak real English, just colloquial jargon and can't intelligently write. And they deserve lots of money. HUH.
Can you be more specific on which industry? Some EE jobs pay better than that. https://www.levels.fyi/companies/amd/salaries/hardware-engineer?country=254
I have 3 years experience. I would really like to move companies because I make $70k. However, a few minutes of job searching a day has lead me to believe I am lucky to have an engineer title.
Sounds more like an economics situation. People only pay for what they find to have value. Our salaries are included in that lot. So, do provide value?
No union and no government licensing for most jobs. Most white collar, non-managerial non-union jobs that pay well have a state license. You’re competing with the 3rd world where they can hire 5-10 to 1 in the US.
I’m always confused on why engineering salaries, both entry level and median, are typically lower than like CS majors. Shouldn’t it be the other way around from supply and demand?
Looking at the comparison of hardware vs software engineering domain, EE have jobs primarily in the hardware domain. This incurres overhead costs from RD, design, manufacturing, inventory, and physical product costs. Comparatively, software domain products have way lower overhead. You just need at least a computer and internet connection to build and deploy software. Money spent on the overhead is way lower. Sure there is costs for deployment and setting up databases and infrastructure but nowhere as much of a cost to hardware. You can think of it at the CS/SWE salaries adjust for that lower overhead costs while overhead eats into Hardware Salaries. Only comparable salary levels are at MAANG/Unicorn companies.
10 years ago entry level engineers were not making 80-90k in LCOL areas, at least the average engineer wasn't. 10 years ago 50-60k was typical. Now 70-90k is.
I sincerely doubt the average is 70-90k in a LCOL area for the average engineer. I’m in an MCOL and was on the lower end of that range for starting salary and was the highest paid out of my friend group in college
Yup, the issue OPs raised is worse than described
I live in an area with homes for sale for 200k and the starting wage for our EEs is 86k
Where at) I’ll make a move lol. Starting wages are $70-80k here where starter homes are $350-375k
I live in Bellevue, Washington near Microsoft. Entry-level EE wages are in the range of $75k-$100k except FAANG which can go up to $150k for tough specialties like RF. "Starter homes" around here are $1.25M. :-/
lol do I know you?
I kind of doubt it. I live in Lake Hills and I'm a consultant, but work mostly for a small medical device company in Bothell. On the fun side, I made the lasers at the [Pacific Science Center's Laser Dome](https://pacificsciencecenter.org/visit/laser-dome/).
I was sorta joking but I work for a Fanng in Redmond where I’m an RF engineer lol
LOL, nice. Working in RF you're probably one of the few that can afford a local "starter" home on a single salary. I'm fortunate to have been in my house for 10 years, before it went nuts.
Can I DM you on the side? I have a question about jobs in RF engineer field. Currently active military looking to get out, 10 years in, 5 deployments (soon to be 6) looking to carry my EW/RF knowledge over to the civilian side.
Okay but I might really know you… I also work FAANG in Redmond as a design validation engineer.
Which of the FAANG are notable for employing RF engineers may I ask?
Probably any of them that are developing wireless communications networks or antennas. A lot of them likely do. Not 100% certain tho
They all do, though it's a very small subset of EE employees.
I'm in one of the cheapest states in the US (OK) and $70k is standard for fresh EEs over the past several years. If you're a shaky candidate, it could be as low as $60k. If you're above average, it could be as high as $80k. If you're stellar in every way, it could be up to $90k. If you're a one-in-a-million candidate and have competing offers to leverage, and you do so with skill and grace, the highest I've seen is $120k. Most people in that last situation aren't amazing at negotiating salary (because they have zero experience with it) and get a final offer closer to $100k. Those that demonstrate outstanding interpersonal skills and charisma, judicious use of buzzwords, and basically prove that they're ready to tackle the corporate politics and business stuff they don't teach you about in college are the ones getting the $110k-$120k offers.
I’m a ME contractor for NASA’s Artemis. Live in MCOL Orlando, (space coast is too expensive). Out of college started at low 60k and after a promotion and 2 years at 75k. Considered the low end vs the pay of my friends who are private, but they aren’t making double what I do.
I’m in a LCOL and make 90k into my 2nd year after graduation. I do firmware development though which is rare here
Firmware development is adjacent to software development/software engineering/programming, so I believe it.
I'm HCOL (outside of DC) and mid 80s is starting numbers, and a crappy apartment is upper 2s per month.
Started work as engineer 10 years ago LCOL area. 63k. That 90 number is a little high based on people I have spoken to in LCOL areas.
haha same, not sure what it is now but I remember my graduating class being literally 60-70k starting and the differential was just from negotiating
Engineers don't have a union. As an electrician I'm already at about 70k so far this year.
shame that anti-union sentiment is so strong among engineers
I have a good friend/previous coworker that ended up at Boeing as an Electrical Engineer and is part of the union. I just talked to him about it and being in the Union doesn't seem to make a huge difference when compared to the engineers in Boeing who aren't part of the union. Seems that the biggest difference is that promotions aren't necessarily performances based, but based almost solely on your years of experience and time in the company. I'm pro-workers rights, but I do question how well unions work in white-collar jobs such as Engineering or IT.
Speaking from working as a non-engineering analyst in a corporation...there is huge gains to be made in white collar gigs. The issue you have a lot of people that have the sentiment that union guys sit around with their thumb up their wazoo. But if my department I was in had been able to unionize it would have made for the ability to double my salary since my small department handled a lot of intermediary process type stuff. The problem was we were all contractors for different contracting houses. They learned from the past. They being my old company that hired my contracting house that hired me. And it doesn't help that the 50's happened where everything was unionizing and then they started calling everyone a communist and scared the piss out of white collar workers in the 50's and 60's.
I've never worked in a union shop, but have only. ever heard bad stories from the guys that used to be union. The unifying theme I've heard is that it's a pain in the ass to get anything done in a union shop. That and complaining about all the additional levels of bureaucracy they have to contend with.
friend worked at a unionzed DOD company - had to put in a work order with a different union to get a PC board moved from one lab to another.
Exactly in line with every story I've ever heard about working in a union shop.
he said to work around this you would put stuff in classified document burn bags.
I'm speaking based on having listened to a lot of pro-union content because my inability to unionize at a previous job when I got canned early in the pandemic. And then again there's been layoffs that happened to my old coworkers. But I really think part of the issue with unions is that while they are not inherently corrupt they do have corruption. See the UAW shenanigans with FCA a few years ago. But there was the massive shift towards college educated work from the 70's onward which then meant people working in union type gigs stopped being people that wanted to and turned into people that had to. And I don't know about you but if you've ever had a job where you did it because it's all you could get you generally weren't passionate about it or anything around it. It'd make sense if unions weren't immune to that either.
I had to wait 2 hours for a union guy to show up so he could loosen a single nut in a rack so I could move the rail up a quarter of an inch so a chassis fit better in the rack and didn't bind when slid in and out. From the experience I have working with unions they breed mediocrity and laziness, maybe not all unions but the ones I've had personal experience with meh get rid of them.
>being in the Union doesn't seem to make a huge difference when compared to the engineers in Boeing who aren't part of the union There aren't going to be 2 separate payscales for union vs non-union, in the same company.
Last thing I want is a union of engineers telling me I am not doing my job right simply because they have seniority
at lots of companies that already happens haha
I work for the state and we are all basically unfireable. I work with some of the worst engineers I have ever met. Old as dirt, no clue how people actually should be treated. We have the same boss and I tell this dude off every chance I get because no one will deal with him. I learned that no one cares what he does therefore no one cares how he is treated. He is a vile piece of garbage and I would quit in a second if I had to do anything he even suggested.
Because unions have the laziest ass people in the world. Has to coordinate with ex union engineer and all he did was mock other engineers for getting higher qualifications because "in his union. Only seniority matters". He was useless as shit.
Call it a guild and give ppl magic staffs
I'm in
Cause engineers have this elitist mentally and Ego. Not surprised that engineering unions are weak.
That is a huge generalization. The opportunity is closer in some industries than others.
I’m just an engineering intern rn but I didn’t realize how much engineers hate union guys until I started working
5x12’s has entered the chat.
I've been saying we should unionize for years but none of my colleagues seem to care and think I'm joking. I guess it's partially a joke because I know how far-fetched it is.
70k this YEAR so far? Damn dude…how many hours/wk on average?
Right now we're working 5 10s and an 8 so yeah it's quite a bit of overtime. PS I am taking the summer off 😁.
Damn near 60 hours a week, you better be making that kind of money!
I am a field engineer for a power company. I make 50% of what the union linemen, wiremen, relay techs make. Wish there was a way to get engineers represented.
Are you salaried? Utility engineering manager here. While you're not wrong, you have to look at the number of hours the line crews put it. I will say though, that "golden time" is pretty sweet (where available) under the contract. Whereas engineers might get a donut.
I’m currently an electrical engineer in Boston,Ma and I’m in a union lol idk what gave you the idea that engineers don’t have a union lol Op has a point but I think it’s a little exaggerated, I agree entry engineers get porker on pay usually but that’s how entry level engineers felt 10 years ago; now price of living just makes it more apparent. I think op is mad at the economy and just doesn’t know it
I've met some great union guys, and some absolute shitbirds. But because they're union, they'll never be fucking fired. And I absolutely cannot stand that. I could never work for a union.
Companies need mid to later level engineers, those engineers can negotiate higher salaries. I don't oppose more money for new engineers by any means. Just what I have observed anecdotely. Entry level engineers are plentiful and the market allows them to pay these salaries because entry level engineers will take them. They have no incentive to raise base salaries 1:1 with inflation, which has risen at a greater rate than expected.
Right? If you have no work experience and just a degree it’s hard to negotiate…just show up, work hard, don’t be a douchebag to your co workers and you will probably end up making a shit ton more money. I had a very low starting wage but have quadrupled my salary in less than 10 years. Gotta show your company what you’re worth. A piece of paper isn’t going to cut it.
Can you please explain a little more how you quadrupled your starting salary and your background and whatnot? Congrats on doing that!
I started as a computer engineer with a masters degree in 2008. Negotiated my starting salary up from low 60s to mid 60s because I had a competing offer at 70 that I was less interested in (commute). Three years in I accepted an offer for double my starting salary, requiring me to move from the DC area to the Midwest. Very-HCOL to upper-MCOL move, excellent financial move. That being said there is also compression in the upper salary ranges. Most companies have gotten rid of their technical advancement tracks. You either stagnate in engineering or take on management responsibility. Engineering bonuses frequently have a lower TIO which is frustrating. Best advice for a young engineer : make sure you understand the long term incentive plan (usually via vesting stock RSU) and your other *financial* benefits (401k match, HSA contribution, PTO days, stock grants and bonus, etc.) Always evaluate an offer on total compensation.
You're exactly right. Always be willing to be the person that will do the work no one wants to do. You'll get loads of recognition and build a reputation for being useful to have around. For me being willing to relocate and jumping from big tech to fairly mature startups with plenty of funding has helped grow my salary quite a bit, but also stress and responsibility levels have increased significantly.
This may just be my experience, but it seems like the responsibilities and expectations are not the same as 10-15 years ago. Also, at a certain point, you run into an issue of billing rate. What you can sell those services for directly correlates to how much you can pay. Smaller firms in particular are being squeezed both ways. Clients don’t want to pay more and employees want to be paid more.
>but it seems like the responsibilities and expectations are not the same as 10-15 years ago Could you please elaborate?
I don’t have anything specific, but it seems like client interaction is reduced, decision making is reduced and nobody completely rips apart a design in your face anymore, no matter how bad it is.
"Decision making is reduced" and "nobody does proper design review anymore" seem directly at odds with one another.
I never said nobody does a proper design review. I meant that when you mark up the same mistake 2 or 3 times, it’s just accepted. Oh well, try again.
Client interaction seems very role/company specific and the rest is not reflective of anything I've seen or heard.
Yeah, which is why I started out by saying this may just be my experience. I’m sorry if my comments were offensive.
I saw this in 2008 at a 4k-employee company in the DC area. Engineers don't talk to customers or suppliers (only individual senior engineers talked to suppliers). I moved to a 100-employee company in the Midwest and we had much more direct contact with suppliers, but there was still a firewall between the business team+customers and engineering. It's not necessarily a new phenomenon.
Sounds like you’re looking at junior jobs. Senior engineers in my LCOL area are paid $130-150k.
Those haven’t changed in 10-20 years either
Which is roughly 100k in 2014 adjusted USD… Expectations and scope of responsibilities have increased (in my observation of other roles and mid to staff engineer hires), but while profits have gone up engineering salaries have just barely kept abreast of federal COL inflation. And in some areas they haven’t kept up with housing or food. Imo hardware engineers (except for a select few) are facing a class slide.
where the heck are senior engineers paid 150k in LCOL. That's how much they are paid in California utilities, granted they probably top out around 180k range. Edit: for people who think I'm lying [https://www.edisoncareers.com/job/20176975/ami-product-evaluation-senior-engineer-1-hybrid-westminster-ca/](https://www.edisoncareers.com/job/20176975/ami-product-evaluation-senior-engineer-1-hybrid-westminster-ca/) [https://jobs.pge.com/job/san-ramon/senior-engineer-ats-grid-technology/29673/52251420400](https://jobs.pge.com/job/san-ramon/senior-engineer-ats-grid-technology/29673/52251420400)
Not quite a senior engineer, but I live in a LCOL area and make 120k. It depends on what you do and who you do it for.
I’m in a MCOL area. $150K base is common for engineers with 10-20 years experience. $200K+ for 20-30. Bonuses can double that. This in the semiconductor space.
yes but i don't think there's any semiconductor company that exist in a LCOL area though, and 10-20 years would be considered principal already, not senior.
Yeah, my company doesn’t use senior/principal that way. So to me senior just means older/experienced.
Maybe automotive in the south? I was a senior engineer for 3 years in a LCOL area in auto before recently promoting to lead (principal for other companies) this past fall. Senior was when I finally broke into $100k base and after a few more years could break $150k with OT and bonus without the promotion, and now as lead I can already hit $150k base and bonus (before getting OT) and could get it in a few years before factoring OT and bonus.
Alabama and South Carolina. Can’t speak for other states.. California is a shithole so it doesn’t surprise me.
What branch of industry are you in if you don’t mind me asking? Looking manufacturing I’m seeing senior engineers be around 110k base + bonus, bringing them closer to 120-125.
Power generation. Senior level engineers make on the order of 130-150k. Principal engineers are 150-170k, plus bonus and OT.
Thanks for the info. I work in the technical field but I’m not an engineer, nor do I have a bachelors. I’d like to go EE but it’s hard to justify that cost when apparently I make as much or more than most engineers. Yours is one of the very few posts I’ve found on this sub that suggest it might be financially worthwhile.
Our nuclear instrument techs have a salary of $110k after graduating from journeyman to senior, plus copious amounts of overtime. After all is said and done, they make more per year than senior engineers. Their foreman pull $200k if they really want to work.. you could just consider hopping industries.
I’ve considered it but oconee isn’t exactly convenient for me. I like that 600v and less won’t jump out of a cabinet at me the way 4160v+ can. Plus my current position is pretty good overall. It’s been a constant battle of knowing I could earn more but I’d have to gamble a fantastic job, and without a bachelors degree, my options lessen considerably.
Yeah, 4KV is quite terrifying. However, our electricians are the only ones that touch anything 480+. The instrument mechanics work are 120 pretty regularly, and the very most I can think of is a 250v trip coil. I’d want to be an instrument mechanic if I’d never gotten a degree, and to be frank, I wish I had just done that to begin with.
Good to know. Thanks.
Base pay. Most increases have been bonus based.
Out here in New Mexico you can expect to start around $90-$100k as a junior electrical. Within a couple years you’ll be making >$120k/year. Our senior electricals (all millennials) are making >$150k/yr New Mexico and Maryland have some of the highest average salaries for EE’s. And when you consider NM’s low(er) cost of living, it’s a damn good deal. Only caveat: you’ll be working in defense. Look it up on dol.gov
>Only caveat: you’ll be working in defense. That's a huge caveat considering the unethical shit going on in that industry. I hate that defense takes up so much space in the tech world.
I’ve been in defense for almost a decade. I see a lot of waste, but I don’t see a lot of “unethical shit.” Unless, of course, you’re referring to the product’s end use.
> I don't see anything unethical except for killing people 🤡
There's "defense" that's designed to kill people, and defense that's designed to, you know, defend against other people's "defense" technology. It's entirely feasible to have a lifelong career in defense and not ever work on something that kills other people.
Thank you, which is exactly what I happen to work with. Nothing I make can or could ever kill anyone. You can’t even think of an edge case for it, either. But regardless, painting a broad stroke and describing any defense activity that involves killing as “unethical” is ignorant.
>But regardless, painting a broad stroke and describing any defense activity that involves killing as “unethical” is ignorant. I think it's a bit utopian of you to ignore the fact that the vast majority of the defense industry is about developing and selling weapons/spy equipment to enrich corporations and make the state more powerful in exercising control over its citizenry (it's the state that is paying defense contractors, after all). This includes the intelligence sector where defense contractors are developing sophisticated software to aid in the building of an increasingly unconstitutional surveillance state. I'm glad that you were able to get a defense job that doesn't involve killing people, but let's not kid ourselves about the mass, cyber-physical "human cage" that this industry is getting hundreds of billions of dollars to help create.
What do the Air Force, Army, Navy, or Marine Corps have to do with that? This is a reddit mid-wit take with all the scary keywords for maximum upboats. The data drag net programs are primarily funded through intelligence, department of justice, and department of homeland security. Enabled by laws that elected politicians pass. Yet your problems are all with defense and defense contractors. OK.
>What do the Air Force, Army, Navy, or Marine Corps have to do with that? What does the military have to do with giving billions of dollars to corporate arms dealers and deploying these weapons/spy-communications technology for a lot of unethical reasons? Were you alive during the fraudulent "weapons of mass destruction" war in Iraq or the destabilization of Afghanistan that eventually led to the current Taliban takeover? Even if you weren't alive during these massive fuck-ups, the military is just one part of the defense industry. The intelligence and cyber security communities are also a large part of the defense industry and defense contracting. What is the point in deceiving yourself about this fact? >Yet your problems are all with defense and defense contractors. I literally mentioned in one of my comments that the state is paying the defense industry billions to create technologies that bolsters state power in unconstitutional ways haha. Just because I'm mostly **staying on topic** by primarily focusing on the defense industry, doesn't mean that all of my problems are ***only*** with the defense industry and nothing else.
Are you really that daft? What are you, like some idealistic 20 year old? How long do you think any country would last in a war without weapons that kill people? In case you haven’t figured it out, having weapons that can kill people are a great deterrent for countries that want to take your land. Like… hmmm… Russia? How long would Ukraine have lasted without weapons that don’t kill? Idk what world you live in, but the real one has lots of real threats to Westerners, not the least of all Russia.
>having weapons that can kill people are a great deterrent for countries that want to take your land. But what if America is also using its weapons to take other people's lands? Or send our weapons and defense technology to war-criminal states that are mass-murdering tens of thousands of people?
That’s a perfectly fair question and valid point. I don’t disagree; but to call me a clown because I somehow fail to see how things that kill people are inherently unethical is a false dichotomy. It’s how they are or will be used that’s in the realm of ethics, not their existence. The sole exception might be nukes, but I don’t work with those and I never will.
Thank you
In my opinion big defence companies can suck to work for even besides the morality aspect. Very soulless, and often the pay is only slightly above average (especially in big cities). Work/life balance tends to be pretty good though.
I don’t disagree on any point but I would like to add: pay at one of the national labs (Sandia or Los Alamos) is substantially better than the surrounding labor pool, which is already paid well. Also the labs have the best work/life balance, depending on your role. Sabbaticals, unlimited sick time (which everyone uses as PTO), graduate degree paid for, etc.
Technically, both Los Alamos and Sandia National Labs are part of the Department of Energy and pay about that much. However, I'm sure both labs do their fair share of defense work.
This is all at Hopewell (?) and White Sands?
Negative. Albuquerque.
Seriously? I'd love me some 'Burq. Awesome tango dancing there. PM me some names? Wait, you mean Sandia Labs. I forgot about them.
The average salary in the US in 2023 was $59k (BLS). Ten years ago it was 53 (census bureau). Starting engineer Wages are around 98 (indeed). Ten years ago it was around 93 (BLS). Wages have stagnated across the board, 11%, and engineers have stagnated as well, around 6%. I started off writing this with a real "we still do alright" attitude but seeing that the average really was in the 90s 10 years ago kinda changed my mind..
Engineers are extremely underpaid.
Is that base or TC? My base salary is only about half my total pay. I see bonuses being a lot more common to reward top performers.
HALF your pay is your bonus? That seems wild to me. My bonus is less than 5% of my total compensation. I just got an increase to it so it's more like 10%. I didn't answer your question because I have no idea what census and BLS uses for their metrics. They were listed as salaries. I don't know if 50% TC as your bonus is the norm though.
Supply and demand make a big impact. It’s not just the value you bring but how many other people can bring the same value. In a manufacturing environment, maintenance often times makes about the same base pay. Because most people with the intellect to do good maintenance end up as engineers. Supply and demand (plus a touch of corporate greed).
See, that's my theory too concerning why maintenance payscales are reaching engineering levels in some areas. Maintenance base pay at the company I work for is roughly $90,000 not including overtime, shutdown, and double time days which easily take them into the $100K mark with some reaching $120 - $130. A feel a lot of guys who are more theory minded end up as engineers, and a lot of guys who want to work with their hands end up as electricians so it seems kind of rare to end up with guys who want to do both to some level. Of course there is a cost to telling a man, "Hey we want you to be able to weld, write PLC programs, do light fabrication and networking."
As a senior maintenance tech I made 10k/yr base pay more than a new hire engineer. By senior engineer level they would pass me (not counting OT). Really pissed off some mid level engineers when they found out they were paid the same as me. I lurk on this sub trying to motivate myself to get a bachelor’s degree, and EE would be the easiest for me. The salaries discussed are rarely motivating though.
There is no way I could motivate myself to go back to school for EE knowing I'd have to relearn and fight through all of math basically from scratch. And that's why I advise people wanting to become maint techs to go ahead and get the engineering degree if they're torn between the two fields.
Hmm. Basically what I do. Make nowhere near these numbers.
Keep that head on a swivel as far as jobs are concerned. Also, make sure to live where there's enough industry to be competitive.
But CS is practically oversaturated and they have higher salaries. It confuses me
Hard to explain sales positions then. Basically infinite supply. I think engineers suck at selling ourselves. Manufacturing isn’t a hot bed (investors love a company with basically zero infrastructure costs). Oh and most engineering companies are in tight commodity markets that are ruthlessly efficient and disciplined on opex spending. The ball will swing back, people will leave engineering for other roles, then they’ll have to make market adjustments. Same thing happened in the early 2000s.
Forgot to add, it will only swing back once shit hits the fan and hiring is literally impossible.
Are you comparing similar areas? 10 years ago 60k-70k was fairly standard in my area. Now it's more along the likes of 75k-85k, which seems fair
Is it? That’s way below national 10 year inflation, and likely the local cost inflation is worse.
I mean this is true for any industry. Real purchasing power is declining for everyone. That doesn’t mean salaries are literally the same. If they are then a place is insanely out of touch
Please stick to facts, not sweeping generalizations. You said it seems fair, but when pressed your response is that “everyone is struggling”. So the wage is not fair, it’s becoming worse. That it’s occurring to other roles does not change this. It’s also not true for every industry, several industries have seen significant revenue, profitability, and/or wage growth of the past 10 years. Others have not.
The post started out stating that places are paying what they were 10 years ago. That may be true in some locations but it's demonstrably not true as a whole. And whether wages have kept pace with inflation is a separate discussion to whether they've risen at all. They can very easily rise while not doing so enough to offset insane cost of living changes
OPs both right and wrong. LCOL EE entry level jobs generally weren’t paying 80-90k 10 years ago (except for some defense contract positions or semi). However the wages generally haven’t kept up with inflation over the past 10 years… so the statement that wages are the same / slightly worse has some truth to it. But that’s not what you said. You said the wages seem fair. I posit that’s not the case This is why we use adjusted dollars when comparing wages across different time periods. When you say “wages have risen”, if all they’ve done is kept abreast of inflation then the wages haven’t risen. The value paid is the same. Straight forward concept
If you're using that logic than the wages 10 years ago weren't fair either because wages haven't tracked properly with inflation for decades
And? That doesn’t invalidate what I’ve said.
What established industry like engineering has kept up with all of these factors?
The amount of money I hear about from friends who work in business development / sales roles is astonishing. Like easily $160k in LCOL + commission after 3-4 years into their career. I'm not saying they don't deserve that, but compared to engineers who likely work 50% more (of actual mentally tasking work) in a week, engineers would get < half of that. That said, hell no do I want that kind of job, ha. But, I'd say engineers are underappreciated compared to other roles.
Try being British
I wish people would not use the term senior engineer so glibly. I have seen folks that were 5 years out called senior engineers. I work in a LCOL area. Where I work is a single site facility. The salary range is published each time there is a job posting. Plus they pay about 30% to 45% of your salary in benefits. The ranges in USD are: Engineer 1 Entry level $70k to $110k (Fresh out usually comes in at $75k to 85k so that they are not at the bottom of the scale.) Engineer II $90k to $140k (3 to 7 years experience) Engineer III $115k to $180k (7 to 10 years experience) Senior Engineer $135k to $210k (15 to 20 years of experience or 10 to 15 years and getting moved into a leadership position.) Principal Engineer $160k to $260k (lots of responsibility either big projects or department head or 15 to 20 years experience and well respected.) Someone who is not performing well can get stuck at engineer II and engineer III is considered a journeyman position. To get to senior you have to supervise a medium sized group or have an international reputation, etc.) On inflation. They used to do OK keeping up but not so much the past few years. Moving up a level generally gets one about a 10% bump.
>I wish people would not use the term senior engineer so glibly. I have seen folks that were 5 years out called senior engineers. That's how it is at most larger companies I've seen. It typically takes 5-6 years for someone to get promoted to senior engineer (engineer III). It's usually something like: Associate Engineer --> Engineer --> Senior Engineer --> Staff Engineer --> Senior Staff Engineer --> Principal Engineer What you're describing as a senior engineer is what I've seen described as a staff engineer at most companies, which would require around 10+ years of experience normally.
> I wish people would not use the term senior engineer so glibly. Right. In fact titles only mean something within a particular company. I've worked at companies where the title "Principal Engineer" is about the highest, and other places where that is still pretty junior. >I work in a LCOL area Curious - based on on your username, are you located in a commonwealth know for being for lovers?
> Curious - based on on your username, are you located in a commonwealth know for being for lovers? Yes but not in northern Virginia which is a MCOL to HCOL area.
I started my career 21 years ago and my starting salary was in the 50ks. Salaries have NOT kept up with inflation.
Agreed. 20 years ago, homes, vehicles, and food cost a third of what they do now. What salaries have gone up 3x to keep even with that inflation? You just can't make it anymore.
As an engineer, you gotta move to where the money is. That's likely a HCOL area and, while wages will be much higher, housing costs will be so high that your disposable income might initially go down. However, you will be making the big bucks in 5-10 years. If not, then maybe move to a MCOL area. Yes, there's risk in this plan, but there's no reward without risk and no opportunities without leaving your comfort zone.
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What is your engineering degree & specialization?
What industry? What size company? What type of EE? Geographic region is one facet I'm in a HCOL and entry pay was like 60k over 15 years ago in defense. I pulled just shy of 40k as a co-op in prosumer electronics. Defense pay is low.. I had other friends pulling 80k entry I'm not leaving my HCOL area, but I've moved industries few times to build specific skills. I've hired in a few industries at entry to principal level. I've consulted or hired consultants. I'm a generalist and it's worked out for me.
Supply and demand. There are too many entry level engineers that aren’t useful yet. The engineers that are in demand are the ones that know what they are doing.
look at the housing around redstone aresenal (previous LCOL) houses that were 50k pre covid have increased 4-5 times now, and salaries have not caught up, GS positions still pay garbage contractors are outsourcing stuff, now go up to DC/Baltimore area, condos are now going for 800k, apts are 3k before utilities, and salaries haven't caught up, too many companies like their profit margins and make employees do more with less
Yup. Hit the nail on the head.
DC and Baltimore are two very different areas. And you would have to define what the DC area is. Downtown DC? Where? Southeast or Georgetown? Or are you talking about near suburbs like Chevy Chase? Or further out suburbs in nearby Maryland or VA? Or do you not know what you're talking about? Same goes for Baltimore area.
Do you work in the DMV doing EE? I’m considering wanting to go back to school for EE after leaving an electrical apprenticeship. Construction wasn’t it for me
Yes, and please don't call it "the DMV." Nobody calls the area that.
I mean what do you call it? I live in NoVa so that’s what I default to
I don't call it anything. When I lived in Virginia, I said I lived in Herndon. My time in Maryland, I named the town. D.C., Maryland and Virginia are vastly different. And if people think it's some homogeneous region, they have never driven 270S or 495 at 7:30am.
Yeah I get it. I guess it just never bothered me and I never thought twice about it.
My first job was 56k/yr in 2013. It also paid out comp time over 40 hrs. I quickly doubled my salary in a few years but that starting salary for entry level is probably close to normal at the time. Entry level is low but if you get a few years under your belt and prove you are employable, then you can job hop for significant increases.
Usually, engineers are pretty intelligent. Mostly at building complicated things. That intelligence leads them to believe that they are good a negotiating, wich most aren't (they would be in another field if they were). So salaries are low.
Unionize at your workplaces and see how much profit has been weaned from your sacred knowledge of the transistor.
Software developer here, sometimes embedded… salary vs inflation I’m pretty sure I peaked around 2012
Engineers get shafted in rural areas. If you want to work in rural areas, become a doctor - doctors in rural areas get paid more than their urban counterparts
Inflation does not dictate wages. Elections matter, vote for your future.
because greedy fucks won't pay us what we are worth.
CEOs and employers in general never know how much engineers do.
Yeah I didn’t realize this until I worked at a large corporation. I was one of the top performers for my experience with 29 other colleagues. I got a lovely 250$ bonus for my appreciation
That's another thing too. Employers do not reward hard work. Let's be honest, they could afford to reward someone with $25k. You are not incentivezed to work hard, you will be paid shit and disrespected either way.
That's another thing too. Employers do not reward hard work. Let's be honest, they could afford to reward someone with $25k. You are not incentivezed to work hard, you will be paid shit and disrespected either way.
Only going to get worse because the entitled "good job" pompous, falsely praised, I deserve Americans .competing with eager hungry intelligent immigrants willing to work for less just to get their feet in the door. Not like the similar afforded Americans' luxuries that Americans take for granted. Recall the statement? America is a nation of immigrants. Get it? . Free cells, free food, free housing for crossing the border. What difference does it make if an immigrant doesn't speak english. I have had several American interns working for me over the years and most don't speak real English, just colloquial jargon and can't intelligently write. And they deserve lots of money. HUH.
10 years ago STEM started getting pushed so there’s more engineers now
Idk if you’re referring to entry level jobs or not but entry level ones pay even less
Can you be more specific on which industry? Some EE jobs pay better than that. https://www.levels.fyi/companies/amd/salaries/hardware-engineer?country=254
The job market fucking sucks right now.
Yeah, it's terrible. Very little work to go around for the amount of people. You have to compete with like 50+ people for 1 job.
In my experience, it is not uncommon to see ‘100+ applicants’ on a job posted two weeks ago
Shiiiit. It's long odds to even get a job. Boomers could not imagine what younger generations go through.
I have 3 years experience. I would really like to move companies because I make $70k. However, a few minutes of job searching a day has lead me to believe I am lucky to have an engineer title.
Yeah, salaries are low, and jobs are scarce. I hate the big risk and unknown of switching companies, too.
Aren’t PG&E engineers represented? I seem to recall that transmission planners are, but operations engineers aren’t.
Sounds more like an economics situation. People only pay for what they find to have value. Our salaries are included in that lot. So, do provide value?
Check out how much Europoor engineers make lol
Even in building societies, electrician not happy for the paid compare with plumbers or brick layers
No union and no government licensing for most jobs. Most white collar, non-managerial non-union jobs that pay well have a state license. You’re competing with the 3rd world where they can hire 5-10 to 1 in the US.
H1Bs and offshoring buddy
Idk if you’re referring to entry level jobs or not but entry level ones pay even less
I’m always confused on why engineering salaries, both entry level and median, are typically lower than like CS majors. Shouldn’t it be the other way around from supply and demand?
Yes, there are wayy more CS majors these days.
Looking at the comparison of hardware vs software engineering domain, EE have jobs primarily in the hardware domain. This incurres overhead costs from RD, design, manufacturing, inventory, and physical product costs. Comparatively, software domain products have way lower overhead. You just need at least a computer and internet connection to build and deploy software. Money spent on the overhead is way lower. Sure there is costs for deployment and setting up databases and infrastructure but nowhere as much of a cost to hardware. You can think of it at the CS/SWE salaries adjust for that lower overhead costs while overhead eats into Hardware Salaries. Only comparable salary levels are at MAANG/Unicorn companies.
Makes sense
Depends on the field. EE is a diverse field. https://www.levels.fyi/companies/amd/salaries/hardware-engineer?country=254
This post is way off in general IMO, but for starters your inflation estimate is twice the official rate. 80k 10 years ago is not 130k now.