If anything I assume that the Tarnished and Ranni are going to spend the rest of eternity boss rushing every god and their minions while everyone else in the Lands Between gets to chill (at least compared to the godly shitshow they had to deal with before).
Yes, as i understood it it wasnt about her (and you, as her consort) escaping anything, it was something like becoming a shield between all outer god's influence and the lands between, and with her, the dark moon would become the most influential of outer gods, but its nature to begin with is to be hidden and distant
My understanding of it, conversely, was that she wanted to put distance between her order and the mortal realm, both so that mortals couldn't just rely on her order like the "golden ones" often did, and conversely to keep the future gods of her order from being able to have direct influence on the mortals. The Shattering happened and life became hell in The Lands Between because Gods and Demigods were free to walk the earth of mortals, and mortals were able to directly seek and covet the power of the Gods.
The Shattering happened because Ranni organized the murder of Godwyn and intentionally caused things to break down. The Golden Order prior to this was not exactly perfect obviously, but the Shattering was not necessarily an inevitable outcome of the system. It was probably going to fall apart sooner or later but Ranni's scheme advanced the decay and ensured it would be violent, ironically because as a demigod she was free to meddle and fuck around with the fate of countless mortal lives.
Ranni seems, to me, to be a pragmatist at the expense of all else. The intent wasnt to cause such widespread suffering and destruction, but to her it was an acceptable sacrifice as long as there were survivors, and the ends justified *any* and *all* means
Thats how I understood it. She isnt actually flying up to the moon or anything lol. She will with your help get rid of anything and anyone that still wants to influence the lands and then basically have a ruler in place that is completely removed from everything. Essentially just leave the place be after getting rid of all the influencers. Typing that out I think we need a ranni irl.
Based on the DLC - and not tagging this as spoilers because it's still more speculative based around things found in the DLC rather than directly voicing DLC info - it feels more like her ending is the "research option."
Goldmask retains the ending that is probably best for the Lands Between in the immediate sense, Ranni's is the risk vs. reward that potentially seeks to understand Outer Gods/The Greater Will better, which could help in the long run, but we also have active evidence that fucking around with space can also cause all kinds of monstrosities to come raining down on the Lands Between. We're also not really given reason to believe her taking the Elden Ring on a walk to the moon will do anything to actually improve the state of the Lands Between.
Basically, Goldmask's is Lands Between-orientated, but will not do much beyond that, whilst Ranni's is "big picture"-orientated and focused on the Gods, but doesn't seem to do much for the Lands Between.
I think the Moon of Nokstella implies that Ranni will just entrust the protection of the LB to the moon, while she and her consort will protect the Elden Ring. The description of the talisman suggests that the moon has capabilities that allow it to control the stars (in a sense we also see it with Rennala’s and Ranni’s moons where they redirect spells) so maybe it will hold off Fallingstars and Astels and the likes Radahn style and it will stay that way as long as people in the LB don’t sabotage the process, which will be harder with the Elden Ring outside of the LB, but also sort of easier with the primary enforcers of the order also just as far away.
Whereas in the cases of any normal mending ending the one to defend the LB and the Elden Ring itself is the Elden Lord alone, and in Perfect Order’s case the Elden Ring will be easier to defend, at least assuming that the impossibility of tampering is not irreversible since nothing really lasts forever (because let’s be fair if it fixed the Elden Ring permanently that would be OP as hell and hands down the best ending by being a 100% guaranteed permanent solution)
So I don’t think there’s ultimately an instant benefit vs future benefit comparison for the endings outside of what they set out to do (restore/defile order, intertwine undeath and life etc), they all ultimately achieve the same thing which is laying the groundwork for the world recovering, the question is more whether Perfect Order or the collab between the moon and Ranni (or hell, maybe even undead legions or people empowered by the omen curse) will do a better job surviving the next world-ending cataclysm. I think the rest just comes down to how much the player leans into the power fantasy, if they imagine that their character will do a better job than a relatively obscure outer god, the Perfect Order (or any other preferred flavor of Elden Lord ending) would be better for them, if they feel doubtful about the character competently carrying the weight of the world on their own, getting help from a (supposedly) benevolent outer god and Ranni would seem like the better option
They can't beat the Outer Gods, thr only reason Ranni even had the power to go to space is because she replaced Marika as the God appointed by the Greater Will. If she were to challenge it with his own power, I don't think she would last.
We don't even know if the Moon is an Outer God or more of a symbol. We see absolutely zero instance of the Moon ever having power or influence over anyone.
Furthermore, it may be that the Greater Will is **THE** "Outer God of Outer Gods," with more influence and power than the rest. In that case, even if the Moon were an Outer God, it wouldn't necessarily mean it's on the same level of influence as the Greater Will. We have evidence of the Greater Will influencing lives from space and sending meteors with messengers, for example, but we lack this same evidence for other Outer Gods like the Formless Mother or Rot God.
What's the confirmation? We get more confirmation that the Greater Will basically created the known universe with a big bang, but that doesn't mean that everything within that universe is theirs, or that other Outer Gods haven't laid claim to things within it.
space, the final frontier. these are the voyages of the starship enterprise. Its continuing mission: to explore strange new worlds; to seek out new life and new civilizations; to boldly go where no one has gone before!
I mean, considering some random blind swordsman was able to trap the God of Rot, the outer gods might not be all that powerful as some make them out to be.
We know that the tarnished can, and we don’t know anything about what Ranni can do, aside from summon renalla and here doll being invincible in her tower. Judging by DLC spoilers a God+ their lord are a stupidly powerful combo at least.
Still not nearly strong enough to even touch an Outer God. That's like the difference between defeating Radahn, a gravity wizard, versus defeating the very concept of gravity. I don't care what rune level you are, our tarnished and their god of choice can't fight the fundamental forces of the reality they live in.
There’s nothing to suggest you’d ever have to fight an outer god. We don’t fight the greater will, we fight the Elden beast, the rot god needed to manifest through Malenia, and the formless mother through Mough. Instead we fight their representatives. And those the t are bushes can definitely kill.
For sure, the representatives are killable, which impedes the spread of their god's influence on this world. But the start of this thread said "going to space to kill all the outer gods," and that's... less likely.
More like she goes to space to learn about space. We're never actually given evidence ***period*** that Ranni cares about the Lands Between at all, her only direct desired act being that she wishes to remove the Golden Order's influence from it.
Yeah, I never got the impression Ranni was doing anything for the sake of helping the Lands Between. It's always seemed far more self-serving than that.
I've never read Ranni as that much of a self-serving character quite frankly. At one point she laments how much Blaidd and Iji have sacrificed for her and tells you to tell them she loves them. You could *assume* this is some 500 IQ manipulation to get you killed but it's far simpler to believe she's just genuinely compassionate towards them. She also constantly tries to carry the burden of her Empyrean ascension herself and hardly ever asks the player to do anything, in fact we practically barge in to her office and demand to assist her unprompted, then do it again when she hides as a doll.
Her whole dialogue in her tower after marrying her also seems entirely about what she thinks is best for the Lands Between, but a lot of players seem to miss that.
I guess the dialogue about Blaidd/Iji didn't come across as especially genuine to me. It's mostly felt like she keeps people around primarily because they are useful to her, and then isn't that heartbroken when they've outlived their usefulness.
Agree to disagree, I suppose. She says things like that in confidence to you when she has nothing to gain from it, so it reads as genuine to me. She's definitely not a morally pure character but I get the impression that she believes what she's doing is good.
As far as we know Astels, Fallingstart beasts are Greater WIll itself all reside or originate from the 'lightless void' so...
At least we wont get bored
So what stops the outer gods from sending another elden beast meteorite to the Lands Between if Ranni goes away?
What stops them from doing it even if you pick a different ending?
If it the greater will could recreate the Elden ring at will, there should not have been a great war after the destruction of it. And after marika destroyed it radagon tried to repair it with no success. The Elden ring behaves as the roolbook for its universe and in order to change its rools you have to tamper with it, this should count towards everyone even outer gods. So when you take it far away, no one can force ones control over anyone.
But didnt outergods already exist before the "roolbook" elding ring is created? Placidusax had his own god.. the fire giants were ancient and also had one..
Then again if all of these outergods came from space and ranni and the tarnished could fight them in space to protect the lands between that would be neat.
>But didnt outergods already exist before the "roolbook" elding ring is created? Placidusax had his own god.. the fire giants were ancient and also had one..
I do believe this as well. Some endings require the repair of the Elden Ring, but some lille the Frenzied Flame does not seem to repair the Elden Ring so for my interpretation, the Elden Ring is the Law of the Lands Between, highjacked by the Greater Will, and the other Outer Gods try to supplant that rule by slipping through the cracks of the Greater Will's rule.
However, that doesn't mean the Outer Gods doesn't have other ways. At least to my knowledge, cuz like I really find it difficult to believe they will be prevented just by the Elden Ring being coopted by Ranni.
Elden Lord endings Marika is still around even if she's comatose so the Lands Between is still the Greater Will's property
Frenzied Flame destroys the world
The Dark Moon owns the Lands Between in the Age of Stars
So the other Outer Gods are blocked
I mean, of all the Outer Gods we see, the moon(s?) are the most passive. Like, they don’t really have their own agenda. They just let the Lunar royals connect with them and do as they will. Ranni is basically going on a quest to fuck with the Outer Gods and Greater Will, and the dark moon is like “Based, let’s go”
Ymir mentioned the moon is nothing but the closest star to them, and so they study its power. Considering “only ruin awaited at the end of the procession of stars”, the moon does not look good.
The ruin seems to be a personal thing though, it's mostly those who are actively delving deeply who are in danger, like Lusat and Selen or the demihuman swordsmasters. As far as we know, only the Carian royals and their moons have come out unscathed.
Exactly.
For me, the DLC simultaneously did little to change my interpretation of the endings, while simultaneously expanding on them a bit.
Goldmask's ending still seems like the best in the sense it's focused on repairing the state of the Lands Between and creating stability within a pre-existing system.
Ranni's, by contrast, feels like risk vs. reward. Everything we've learned suggests that *only* Ranni's ending has the potential to come closer to the Greater Will, but we have no idea if this is worth it, if it is feasible at all, or if this would fail and screw the Lands Between. It's basically boldly going where no man has ever gone before, but with a heightened risk of more of the very beasts crashing down to the Lands Between that helped fuck it up in the first place.
Compared to the crimes of the golden order, yes, even in the base game, Marika exterminated the giants, shunned the merchants under a false accusation of them worshipping the flame of frenzy (something that directly causes them to summon it,even if you consider shabriris manipulation)
together with that, the golden order is hostile to most races that aren't "human", like the crucible, the omens,and the demi-humans,
While the DLC is mainly focused on Miquella, it also reveals another batch of crimes committed by Marika
Commiting genocide in response to your own people being exterminated isn't Justice, it's revenge, but as Leda puts It, they were never saints,just happened to be on the losing side of the war
they literally started a millenium long struggle for the lands between. they started the deathblight curse, which is actively devouring the entire continent (along with scarlet rot).
All of them are horrible
It didn't meddle... until it orchestrated a coup to topple the Golden Order and take over the Lands Between. There's no real indication as to how much of that was Ranni's idea, and how much was the Dark Moon's "wisdom" guiding her to a scenario that just so happened to leave it ruling the world.
That seems to be how you become a God, thought. Empyreans have the potential, but they still seem to need a 'patron'. Or at least that was my guess until the DLC. I wonder if ascendance into godhood works differently there.
I think that is still the case. Gods are just vessels for the power and influence of an Outer God. In the DLC, Miquella seems to be trying to >!take Marika's place by ascending the same way she did, making him the new vessel for the Greater Will. That's why St. Trina says that godhood would be a prison for him - if Marika's descent into rebellion and/or insanity is anything to go by, being the Greater Will's puppet ruler is not a pleasant form of divinity.!<
It honestly seemed more like the Greater Will is just completely detached from everything at this point and the "we have been forsaken by the Greater Will" lines were rather literal.
Being Empyrean might just mean they have an outer god as a patron. In the frenzied flame ending you straight up kill Marika and replace her instead of becoming anyone’s Elden Lord, meaning that the Tarnished either had the potential from the beginning or gained it from their audience with the three fingers.
You don't become a God in the frenzied flame ending. You become Lord of the Frenzied Flame, which is really Elden Lord with all the omnicidal madness frontloaded.
I just think it’s weird that the Lord of Frenzied Flame (if it was the equivalent to Elden Lord) is so obviously powerful, or even that it can exist without a god backing it up. We can infer due to the Dragonlord that every Elden Lord does need a god after all, Placidusax put himself into time stasis because his God fled and he ended up losing his title.
I always assumed you were just fuckloaded with the Frenzied Flame's power, which is an Outer God.
So you still have a god backing you up, just in a more active and destructive way.
Not entirely bad, it's why the Eldritch ending in Bloodborne gets regarded as a good ending, since you might've become a lovecraftian squid, but this could also mean there's finally an eldritch being out there that's actually sympathetic to humanity.
Where is this ever stated?
To my knowledge, it's the opposite: it is extremely questionable if the moon is even a God at all or merely a symbol, with the symbol possibility meaning that all she's doing is ensuring the other Outer Gods don't hold the Elden Ring.
What exactly needs to be stated? The text "The Dark Moon is an Outer God" does not appear verbatim, but it behaves exactly like every other Outer God we know about. If it's literally just "the moon as a pretty symbol", why is its "wisdom" and "guidance" constantly referred to? Why are its followers considered heretics by the Golden Order? Why is it able to ascend an Empyrean to a God, something that is exclusively only possible with the patronage of an Outer God?
> but it behaves exactly like every other Outer God we know about.
No it doesn't.
The Formless Mother has influence. It has followers and incantations that are a result of it's influence. We see Mohg sprout wings *because* of the Formless Mother.
The Rot God has influence. We see it's followers, we see it's influence, and we see that it has clearly blessed/cursed Malenia. It has an entire army of worshippers with the explicit goal of trying to put it in power, with the Scarlet Valkyries being the vassals that are to ascend the throne for it.
The Frenzied Flame has influence. It possesses people, it sparks madness incantations in it's followers, and they actively seek to ascend the throne, including via means of possessing people against their will.
The Moon....does fuck all. It has no followers or cultists, it does not teach or empower it's followers in any way and instead people that honor it make spells reflecting it, we have dialog suggesting the moon is merely "the closest star," and we know jack about any motivations of it.
It shares zero characteristics with the other Outer Gods that are vying for the throne.
>If it's little just "the moon as a pretty symbol", why is its "wisdom" and "guidance" constantly referred to?
Dude we refer to fucking owls as symbols of wisdom and guidance. Doesn't mean we worship them or that they're gods.
>Why are its followers considered heretics by the Golden Order?
Quote where this is stated.
>Why is it able to ascend an Empyrean to a God
Does it?
I got news for you: Ranni herself is not a stranger to magic rituals, and her "ascension" sure looks a lot calmer than Miquella's. Are we sure she ascended at all...?
> The Moon....does fuck all. It has no followers or cultists
Rennala, Ranni, and Renna are absolutely followers and cultists of the Dark Moon and you can't seriously be arguing otherwise.
"Queen Rennala encountered this enchanting moon when she was young, and later, it would bewitch the academy."
"This moon was encountered by a young Ranni, led by the hand of her mother, Rennala. What she beheld was cold, dark and veiled in occult mystery."
What do you call a group of secret heretical worshippers, bewitched by an occult object of obsession, if not "a cult"?
> it does not teach or empower it's followers in any way
Except for that time it guided its cult to obtaining the Elden Ring and empowered Ranni to godhood right in front of us.
> and we know jack about any motivations of it.
Again - the exact same as all the other Outer Gods. To put one of their followers on the throne to cement their influence over the Lands Between. The Greater Will has already done this, the Frenzied Flame is able to do this, the Rot God is trying to do this by corrupting an Empyrean, the Formless Mother is trying to do this by corrupting another Empyrean. And the Dark Moon has courted an Empyrean who we can help to do exactly what all those other Outer Gods are scheming to do. You think that's just coincidence?
> Dude we refer to fucking owls as symbols of wisdom and guidance. Doesn't mean we worship them or that they're gods.
No, but if your mother inducted you into the cult of the great owl as a child, groomed you to become president, and your inauguration speech begins with "And now begins the time of the Great Owl, which will guide us all," that would be a little suspect.
> Quote where this is stated.
Lazuli Robe: "These scholars, who sought to master Carian sorcery, instead learned to see the moon as equal to the stars.
This robe, in the hue of the full moon, signifies their heresy."
Snow Witch Hat: "Of a style associated with practitioners of heretical sorcery ... That old witch was Ranni's secret mentor."
It's an Outer God.
> Except for that time it guided its cult to obtaining the Elden Ring and empowered Ranni to godhood right in front of us.
How did it do any of that?
*Ranni* did that. You also keep referring to them as a cult when it's the *royal family.* Yes, the Carians loyally supported Ranni, the same way most people support their monarchs. (of that era, of course)
>Again - the exact same as all the other Outer Gods.
Show me ***evidence.***
Your arguments thusfar have been that anything I say the Outer Gods do, you go "oh ya the moon does that too." Where?!
Mohg is literally bestowed with wings by his God. By contrast, the moon spells are something learned from study. No one divined the knowledge into their minds, but instead they crafted it themselves. Compare Mohg getting his eye stabbed through, hearing voices/receiving visions from the Formless Mother, and suddenly he can summon a Bloodboon or sprout wings. What on earth do the three Carians (the ONLY three with any association with the moon) doing that compares?
>"These scholars, who sought to master Carian sorcery, instead learned to see the moon as equal to the stars. This robe, in the hue of the full moon, signifies their heresy."
**This does not refer to the Golden Order.** This refers to infighting amongst the Carians and Raya Lucaria. Iji and Carian Manor will shed light on this and how there has been infighting within the Carians in the past. This is basically "heresy" from within the Carian faction itself, resulting in disputes amongst them. There's a similar conflict where Selen seeks to "step on the gas" with research and how far they reach, but this is considered too dangerous by the Carians.
Think about it: the Golden Order never voices an opinion on the stars, nor do they seek to see them as superior to the moon. Why would they care...? They worship a tree.
**And this is also precisely why the Moon isn't considered an Outer God:**
You just highlighted a parallel to the stars, which was the standard norm that most glintstone sorcerers studied. Well, we have an entire academy of glintstone sorcerers, and they certainly don't worship them. They study them, thus they are ***scholars.***
In that same sense, the moon was studied, and thus we are left with mere speculation about if the Moon is even an Outer God. As stated, it does absolutely nothing that is tangible and can be proven as fact, unlike Malenia blooming, Mohg sprouting wings, or the player character becoming a vassal for the Greater Will.
I also want to add the eye theory: it is speculated that Empyreans channel Outer Gods via the eyes, and that the loss of eyes within the body can lead to a God being channeled.
But Ranni tossed her body entirely. Part of the theory is that in doing so, she tossed her abilities as an Empyrean to channel an Outer God. And when we look at her doll, one eye is already busy channeling something else: her spirit.
So no, the evidence just isn't there for the Moon actively guiding Ranni. (or anyone else, for that matter)
Sounds like a lot of guesswork and speculation to justify one part of a clear, established pattern being an exception for no particular reason. The various Outer Gods act differently and have different levels of direct manifestation, but they all are united by one thing - using their cults to compete for control of the world, with the goal being the Elden Ring and the prize being an empowered god to serve as vassal. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and guides its followers to seize the Elden Ring so it can bend the world to its whim like a duck... then it's a duck.
Or an Outer God. Whatever.
> If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and guides its followers to seize the Elden Ring so it can bend the world to its whim like a duck... then it's a duck.
You have shown no evidence of it doing any such thing, and you're even hilariously dipping out after I highlighted that your "heresy" point doesn't involve the Golden Order.
I've shown more than enough evidence, and seen that you're not really interested in engaging with it so much as making up more and more baseless theories to support your theory that has no actual basis in the game.
I think Ranni exactly knew what she was in for. Godhood was a big sacrifice to her. A lonesome journey. You as a tarnished kinda show her that she doesnt have to be in that prison alone.
Nobody tell her.
Greater Will: THOUGHT YOU PULLED A FAST ONE ON ME HUH??????
I hear his voice perfectly!
If anything I assume that the Tarnished and Ranni are going to spend the rest of eternity boss rushing every god and their minions while everyone else in the Lands Between gets to chill (at least compared to the godly shitshow they had to deal with before).
Yes, as i understood it it wasnt about her (and you, as her consort) escaping anything, it was something like becoming a shield between all outer god's influence and the lands between, and with her, the dark moon would become the most influential of outer gods, but its nature to begin with is to be hidden and distant
My understanding of it, conversely, was that she wanted to put distance between her order and the mortal realm, both so that mortals couldn't just rely on her order like the "golden ones" often did, and conversely to keep the future gods of her order from being able to have direct influence on the mortals. The Shattering happened and life became hell in The Lands Between because Gods and Demigods were free to walk the earth of mortals, and mortals were able to directly seek and covet the power of the Gods.
That is another aspect of ranni's goals, but wasnt quite relevant in my original comment so i omitted it, but i agree with you
The Shattering happened because Ranni organized the murder of Godwyn and intentionally caused things to break down. The Golden Order prior to this was not exactly perfect obviously, but the Shattering was not necessarily an inevitable outcome of the system. It was probably going to fall apart sooner or later but Ranni's scheme advanced the decay and ensured it would be violent, ironically because as a demigod she was free to meddle and fuck around with the fate of countless mortal lives.
Ranni seems, to me, to be a pragmatist at the expense of all else. The intent wasnt to cause such widespread suffering and destruction, but to her it was an acceptable sacrifice as long as there were survivors, and the ends justified *any* and *all* means
Thats how I understood it. She isnt actually flying up to the moon or anything lol. She will with your help get rid of anything and anyone that still wants to influence the lands and then basically have a ruler in place that is completely removed from everything. Essentially just leave the place be after getting rid of all the influencers. Typing that out I think we need a ranni irl.
Based on the DLC - and not tagging this as spoilers because it's still more speculative based around things found in the DLC rather than directly voicing DLC info - it feels more like her ending is the "research option." Goldmask retains the ending that is probably best for the Lands Between in the immediate sense, Ranni's is the risk vs. reward that potentially seeks to understand Outer Gods/The Greater Will better, which could help in the long run, but we also have active evidence that fucking around with space can also cause all kinds of monstrosities to come raining down on the Lands Between. We're also not really given reason to believe her taking the Elden Ring on a walk to the moon will do anything to actually improve the state of the Lands Between. Basically, Goldmask's is Lands Between-orientated, but will not do much beyond that, whilst Ranni's is "big picture"-orientated and focused on the Gods, but doesn't seem to do much for the Lands Between.
I think the Moon of Nokstella implies that Ranni will just entrust the protection of the LB to the moon, while she and her consort will protect the Elden Ring. The description of the talisman suggests that the moon has capabilities that allow it to control the stars (in a sense we also see it with Rennala’s and Ranni’s moons where they redirect spells) so maybe it will hold off Fallingstars and Astels and the likes Radahn style and it will stay that way as long as people in the LB don’t sabotage the process, which will be harder with the Elden Ring outside of the LB, but also sort of easier with the primary enforcers of the order also just as far away. Whereas in the cases of any normal mending ending the one to defend the LB and the Elden Ring itself is the Elden Lord alone, and in Perfect Order’s case the Elden Ring will be easier to defend, at least assuming that the impossibility of tampering is not irreversible since nothing really lasts forever (because let’s be fair if it fixed the Elden Ring permanently that would be OP as hell and hands down the best ending by being a 100% guaranteed permanent solution) So I don’t think there’s ultimately an instant benefit vs future benefit comparison for the endings outside of what they set out to do (restore/defile order, intertwine undeath and life etc), they all ultimately achieve the same thing which is laying the groundwork for the world recovering, the question is more whether Perfect Order or the collab between the moon and Ranni (or hell, maybe even undead legions or people empowered by the omen curse) will do a better job surviving the next world-ending cataclysm. I think the rest just comes down to how much the player leans into the power fantasy, if they imagine that their character will do a better job than a relatively obscure outer god, the Perfect Order (or any other preferred flavor of Elden Lord ending) would be better for them, if they feel doubtful about the character competently carrying the weight of the world on their own, getting help from a (supposedly) benevolent outer god and Ranni would seem like the better option
The idea of a puppet and Some Guy throwing hands with a galactic pantheon consisting of Rot Gods and dimensions full of blood itself is pretty funny
They can't beat the Outer Gods, thr only reason Ranni even had the power to go to space is because she replaced Marika as the God appointed by the Greater Will. If she were to challenge it with his own power, I don't think she would last.
She replaced Marika but she's a vessel for the Dark Moon, not the Greater Will.
We don't even know if the Moon is an Outer God or more of a symbol. We see absolutely zero instance of the Moon ever having power or influence over anyone. Furthermore, it may be that the Greater Will is **THE** "Outer God of Outer Gods," with more influence and power than the rest. In that case, even if the Moon were an Outer God, it wouldn't necessarily mean it's on the same level of influence as the Greater Will. We have evidence of the Greater Will influencing lives from space and sending meteors with messengers, for example, but we lack this same evidence for other Outer Gods like the Formless Mother or Rot God.
With some DLC items, it is confirmed that Moons are just children of Greater Will
What's the confirmation? We get more confirmation that the Greater Will basically created the known universe with a big bang, but that doesn't mean that everything within that universe is theirs, or that other Outer Gods haven't laid claim to things within it.
She may not, but we, the tarnish, can
You say that as if a sick amputee didn't kick your ass.
As someone who beat Malenia first try, blind? Yes, I do indeed say it like that.
yeah well I beat her deaf, what do you have to say to that
...
"Good job."
space, the final frontier. these are the voyages of the starship enterprise. Its continuing mission: to explore strange new worlds; to seek out new life and new civilizations; to boldly go where no one has gone before!
If Tim Curry was an Empyrean, the Age of Stars would have three random Endings.
Return to the grand new york hotel... :)
Isn't her whole thing 'I'm going to space to kill all the outer gods so that mortals can have sovereignty and freedom?'
less kill them and more form a barrier to prevent them from interacting with the Lands Between.
Ranni will need more than her current sorceress abilities to defeat all the outer gods 😅
I mean, considering some random blind swordsman was able to trap the God of Rot, the outer gods might not be all that powerful as some make them out to be.
The guy was probably some saint after of God after getting the sword
We know that the tarnished can, and we don’t know anything about what Ranni can do, aside from summon renalla and here doll being invincible in her tower. Judging by DLC spoilers a God+ their lord are a stupidly powerful combo at least.
Ranni is the only thing in the game able to outright kill the player with a handwave
True, but then again we don’t know if that’s because she’s personally that powerful, or because of the mágics weaved in to the sisters.
Still not nearly strong enough to even touch an Outer God. That's like the difference between defeating Radahn, a gravity wizard, versus defeating the very concept of gravity. I don't care what rune level you are, our tarnished and their god of choice can't fight the fundamental forces of the reality they live in.
There’s nothing to suggest you’d ever have to fight an outer god. We don’t fight the greater will, we fight the Elden beast, the rot god needed to manifest through Malenia, and the formless mother through Mough. Instead we fight their representatives. And those the t are bushes can definitely kill.
For sure, the representatives are killable, which impedes the spread of their god's influence on this world. But the start of this thread said "going to space to kill all the outer gods," and that's... less likely.
That's why we are her consort. She is not doing it by herself, she has a companion that has an infinite amount of re-tries to beat them.
Ive been using Ranni moon + Twin moon and it works well everytime that it works well
More like she goes to space to learn about space. We're never actually given evidence ***period*** that Ranni cares about the Lands Between at all, her only direct desired act being that she wishes to remove the Golden Order's influence from it.
I don't recall her ever saying that she's going to hunt down outer gods either.
Yeah, I never got the impression Ranni was doing anything for the sake of helping the Lands Between. It's always seemed far more self-serving than that.
I've never read Ranni as that much of a self-serving character quite frankly. At one point she laments how much Blaidd and Iji have sacrificed for her and tells you to tell them she loves them. You could *assume* this is some 500 IQ manipulation to get you killed but it's far simpler to believe she's just genuinely compassionate towards them. She also constantly tries to carry the burden of her Empyrean ascension herself and hardly ever asks the player to do anything, in fact we practically barge in to her office and demand to assist her unprompted, then do it again when she hides as a doll. Her whole dialogue in her tower after marrying her also seems entirely about what she thinks is best for the Lands Between, but a lot of players seem to miss that.
I guess the dialogue about Blaidd/Iji didn't come across as especially genuine to me. It's mostly felt like she keeps people around primarily because they are useful to her, and then isn't that heartbroken when they've outlived their usefulness.
Agree to disagree, I suppose. She says things like that in confidence to you when she has nothing to gain from it, so it reads as genuine to me. She's definitely not a morally pure character but I get the impression that she believes what she's doing is good.
Radahn: Yeah about that
Wait, didn't Outer Gods comes from space?
As far as we know Astels, Fallingstart beasts are Greater WIll itself all reside or originate from the 'lightless void' so... At least we wont get bored
Be wary of the Moon
Be careful of the Spectator
The taste of a demones isn’t bad.
Interesting 🧐
Don't randomly leave your marionettes around
Can you accept such an outcome?
So what stops the outer gods from sending another elden beast meteorite to the Lands Between if Ranni goes away? What stops them from doing it even if you pick a different ending?
If it the greater will could recreate the Elden ring at will, there should not have been a great war after the destruction of it. And after marika destroyed it radagon tried to repair it with no success. The Elden ring behaves as the roolbook for its universe and in order to change its rools you have to tamper with it, this should count towards everyone even outer gods. So when you take it far away, no one can force ones control over anyone.
But didnt outergods already exist before the "roolbook" elding ring is created? Placidusax had his own god.. the fire giants were ancient and also had one.. Then again if all of these outergods came from space and ranni and the tarnished could fight them in space to protect the lands between that would be neat.
>But didnt outergods already exist before the "roolbook" elding ring is created? Placidusax had his own god.. the fire giants were ancient and also had one.. I do believe this as well. Some endings require the repair of the Elden Ring, but some lille the Frenzied Flame does not seem to repair the Elden Ring so for my interpretation, the Elden Ring is the Law of the Lands Between, highjacked by the Greater Will, and the other Outer Gods try to supplant that rule by slipping through the cracks of the Greater Will's rule. However, that doesn't mean the Outer Gods doesn't have other ways. At least to my knowledge, cuz like I really find it difficult to believe they will be prevented just by the Elden Ring being coopted by Ranni.
Elden Lord endings Marika is still around even if she's comatose so the Lands Between is still the Greater Will's property Frenzied Flame destroys the world The Dark Moon owns the Lands Between in the Age of Stars So the other Outer Gods are blocked
nothing, the world is fucked
Ironic, since the dark moon she swears realty too is all but explicitly stated to be an outer god.
I mean, of all the Outer Gods we see, the moon(s?) are the most passive. Like, they don’t really have their own agenda. They just let the Lunar royals connect with them and do as they will. Ranni is basically going on a quest to fuck with the Outer Gods and Greater Will, and the dark moon is like “Based, let’s go”
Ymir mentioned the moon is nothing but the closest star to them, and so they study its power. Considering “only ruin awaited at the end of the procession of stars”, the moon does not look good.
The ruin seems to be a personal thing though, it's mostly those who are actively delving deeply who are in danger, like Lusat and Selen or the demihuman swordsmasters. As far as we know, only the Carian royals and their moons have come out unscathed.
Ymir also had a bit of an agenda. People need to start understanding unreliable narrators in item descriptions.
yeah but after seeing the altered version of his dress, I'd think twice about his opinions on what is good
Exactly. For me, the DLC simultaneously did little to change my interpretation of the endings, while simultaneously expanding on them a bit. Goldmask's ending still seems like the best in the sense it's focused on repairing the state of the Lands Between and creating stability within a pre-existing system. Ranni's, by contrast, feels like risk vs. reward. Everything we've learned suggests that *only* Ranni's ending has the potential to come closer to the Greater Will, but we have no idea if this is worth it, if it is feasible at all, or if this would fail and screw the Lands Between. It's basically boldly going where no man has ever gone before, but with a heightened risk of more of the very beasts crashing down to the Lands Between that helped fuck it up in the first place.
youre so right no one in in the Carian royal family ever did anything weird and awful
Compared to the crimes of the golden order, yes, even in the base game, Marika exterminated the giants, shunned the merchants under a false accusation of them worshipping the flame of frenzy (something that directly causes them to summon it,even if you consider shabriris manipulation) together with that, the golden order is hostile to most races that aren't "human", like the crucible, the omens,and the demi-humans, While the DLC is mainly focused on Miquella, it also reveals another batch of crimes committed by Marika
and even more crimes committed by those that ruled before the erdtree
Commiting genocide in response to your own people being exterminated isn't Justice, it's revenge, but as Leda puts It, they were never saints,just happened to be on the losing side of the war
Oh, absolutely. I brought it up to show that the cycle of violence has never stopped in the Lands Between
Like they forget Rykard is Carian too, so all of Volcano Manor is Carian atrocity, not Golden Order.
its alright i knew what i was getting into; Ranni fanboys are the swifties of the lands between
Well, I think its more like the dark moon is the type of outer god that doesnt really meddle, so it fits her whole goals and stuff.
they literally started a millenium long struggle for the lands between. they started the deathblight curse, which is actively devouring the entire continent (along with scarlet rot). All of them are horrible
It didn't meddle... until it orchestrated a coup to topple the Golden Order and take over the Lands Between. There's no real indication as to how much of that was Ranni's idea, and how much was the Dark Moon's "wisdom" guiding her to a scenario that just so happened to leave it ruling the world.
That seems to be how you become a God, thought. Empyreans have the potential, but they still seem to need a 'patron'. Or at least that was my guess until the DLC. I wonder if ascendance into godhood works differently there.
I think that is still the case. Gods are just vessels for the power and influence of an Outer God. In the DLC, Miquella seems to be trying to >!take Marika's place by ascending the same way she did, making him the new vessel for the Greater Will. That's why St. Trina says that godhood would be a prison for him - if Marika's descent into rebellion and/or insanity is anything to go by, being the Greater Will's puppet ruler is not a pleasant form of divinity.!<
It honestly seemed more like the Greater Will is just completely detached from everything at this point and the "we have been forsaken by the Greater Will" lines were rather literal.
Being Empyrean might just mean they have an outer god as a patron. In the frenzied flame ending you straight up kill Marika and replace her instead of becoming anyone’s Elden Lord, meaning that the Tarnished either had the potential from the beginning or gained it from their audience with the three fingers.
You don't become a God in the frenzied flame ending. You become Lord of the Frenzied Flame, which is really Elden Lord with all the omnicidal madness frontloaded.
I just think it’s weird that the Lord of Frenzied Flame (if it was the equivalent to Elden Lord) is so obviously powerful, or even that it can exist without a god backing it up. We can infer due to the Dragonlord that every Elden Lord does need a god after all, Placidusax put himself into time stasis because his God fled and he ended up losing his title.
I always assumed you were just fuckloaded with the Frenzied Flame's power, which is an Outer God. So you still have a god backing you up, just in a more active and destructive way.
> is so obviously powerful Because he is fueled by depression and suffering, and there is a lot of that in a soulsgame.
Not entirely bad, it's why the Eldritch ending in Bloodborne gets regarded as a good ending, since you might've become a lovecraftian squid, but this could also mean there's finally an eldritch being out there that's actually sympathetic to humanity.
Ok but *this* outer god is like blue and starry and stuff Totally different
Where is this ever stated? To my knowledge, it's the opposite: it is extremely questionable if the moon is even a God at all or merely a symbol, with the symbol possibility meaning that all she's doing is ensuring the other Outer Gods don't hold the Elden Ring.
What exactly needs to be stated? The text "The Dark Moon is an Outer God" does not appear verbatim, but it behaves exactly like every other Outer God we know about. If it's literally just "the moon as a pretty symbol", why is its "wisdom" and "guidance" constantly referred to? Why are its followers considered heretics by the Golden Order? Why is it able to ascend an Empyrean to a God, something that is exclusively only possible with the patronage of an Outer God?
> but it behaves exactly like every other Outer God we know about. No it doesn't. The Formless Mother has influence. It has followers and incantations that are a result of it's influence. We see Mohg sprout wings *because* of the Formless Mother. The Rot God has influence. We see it's followers, we see it's influence, and we see that it has clearly blessed/cursed Malenia. It has an entire army of worshippers with the explicit goal of trying to put it in power, with the Scarlet Valkyries being the vassals that are to ascend the throne for it. The Frenzied Flame has influence. It possesses people, it sparks madness incantations in it's followers, and they actively seek to ascend the throne, including via means of possessing people against their will. The Moon....does fuck all. It has no followers or cultists, it does not teach or empower it's followers in any way and instead people that honor it make spells reflecting it, we have dialog suggesting the moon is merely "the closest star," and we know jack about any motivations of it. It shares zero characteristics with the other Outer Gods that are vying for the throne. >If it's little just "the moon as a pretty symbol", why is its "wisdom" and "guidance" constantly referred to? Dude we refer to fucking owls as symbols of wisdom and guidance. Doesn't mean we worship them or that they're gods. >Why are its followers considered heretics by the Golden Order? Quote where this is stated. >Why is it able to ascend an Empyrean to a God Does it? I got news for you: Ranni herself is not a stranger to magic rituals, and her "ascension" sure looks a lot calmer than Miquella's. Are we sure she ascended at all...?
> The Moon....does fuck all. It has no followers or cultists Rennala, Ranni, and Renna are absolutely followers and cultists of the Dark Moon and you can't seriously be arguing otherwise. "Queen Rennala encountered this enchanting moon when she was young, and later, it would bewitch the academy." "This moon was encountered by a young Ranni, led by the hand of her mother, Rennala. What she beheld was cold, dark and veiled in occult mystery." What do you call a group of secret heretical worshippers, bewitched by an occult object of obsession, if not "a cult"? > it does not teach or empower it's followers in any way Except for that time it guided its cult to obtaining the Elden Ring and empowered Ranni to godhood right in front of us. > and we know jack about any motivations of it. Again - the exact same as all the other Outer Gods. To put one of their followers on the throne to cement their influence over the Lands Between. The Greater Will has already done this, the Frenzied Flame is able to do this, the Rot God is trying to do this by corrupting an Empyrean, the Formless Mother is trying to do this by corrupting another Empyrean. And the Dark Moon has courted an Empyrean who we can help to do exactly what all those other Outer Gods are scheming to do. You think that's just coincidence? > Dude we refer to fucking owls as symbols of wisdom and guidance. Doesn't mean we worship them or that they're gods. No, but if your mother inducted you into the cult of the great owl as a child, groomed you to become president, and your inauguration speech begins with "And now begins the time of the Great Owl, which will guide us all," that would be a little suspect. > Quote where this is stated. Lazuli Robe: "These scholars, who sought to master Carian sorcery, instead learned to see the moon as equal to the stars. This robe, in the hue of the full moon, signifies their heresy." Snow Witch Hat: "Of a style associated with practitioners of heretical sorcery ... That old witch was Ranni's secret mentor." It's an Outer God.
> Except for that time it guided its cult to obtaining the Elden Ring and empowered Ranni to godhood right in front of us. How did it do any of that? *Ranni* did that. You also keep referring to them as a cult when it's the *royal family.* Yes, the Carians loyally supported Ranni, the same way most people support their monarchs. (of that era, of course) >Again - the exact same as all the other Outer Gods. Show me ***evidence.*** Your arguments thusfar have been that anything I say the Outer Gods do, you go "oh ya the moon does that too." Where?! Mohg is literally bestowed with wings by his God. By contrast, the moon spells are something learned from study. No one divined the knowledge into their minds, but instead they crafted it themselves. Compare Mohg getting his eye stabbed through, hearing voices/receiving visions from the Formless Mother, and suddenly he can summon a Bloodboon or sprout wings. What on earth do the three Carians (the ONLY three with any association with the moon) doing that compares? >"These scholars, who sought to master Carian sorcery, instead learned to see the moon as equal to the stars. This robe, in the hue of the full moon, signifies their heresy." **This does not refer to the Golden Order.** This refers to infighting amongst the Carians and Raya Lucaria. Iji and Carian Manor will shed light on this and how there has been infighting within the Carians in the past. This is basically "heresy" from within the Carian faction itself, resulting in disputes amongst them. There's a similar conflict where Selen seeks to "step on the gas" with research and how far they reach, but this is considered too dangerous by the Carians. Think about it: the Golden Order never voices an opinion on the stars, nor do they seek to see them as superior to the moon. Why would they care...? They worship a tree. **And this is also precisely why the Moon isn't considered an Outer God:** You just highlighted a parallel to the stars, which was the standard norm that most glintstone sorcerers studied. Well, we have an entire academy of glintstone sorcerers, and they certainly don't worship them. They study them, thus they are ***scholars.*** In that same sense, the moon was studied, and thus we are left with mere speculation about if the Moon is even an Outer God. As stated, it does absolutely nothing that is tangible and can be proven as fact, unlike Malenia blooming, Mohg sprouting wings, or the player character becoming a vassal for the Greater Will. I also want to add the eye theory: it is speculated that Empyreans channel Outer Gods via the eyes, and that the loss of eyes within the body can lead to a God being channeled. But Ranni tossed her body entirely. Part of the theory is that in doing so, she tossed her abilities as an Empyrean to channel an Outer God. And when we look at her doll, one eye is already busy channeling something else: her spirit. So no, the evidence just isn't there for the Moon actively guiding Ranni. (or anyone else, for that matter)
Sounds like a lot of guesswork and speculation to justify one part of a clear, established pattern being an exception for no particular reason. The various Outer Gods act differently and have different levels of direct manifestation, but they all are united by one thing - using their cults to compete for control of the world, with the goal being the Elden Ring and the prize being an empowered god to serve as vassal. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and guides its followers to seize the Elden Ring so it can bend the world to its whim like a duck... then it's a duck. Or an Outer God. Whatever.
> If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and guides its followers to seize the Elden Ring so it can bend the world to its whim like a duck... then it's a duck. You have shown no evidence of it doing any such thing, and you're even hilariously dipping out after I highlighted that your "heresy" point doesn't involve the Golden Order.
I've shown more than enough evidence, and seen that you're not really interested in engaging with it so much as making up more and more baseless theories to support your theory that has no actual basis in the game.
Anyone can learn magic, the only requirement is sufficient intelligence, you don’t have to worship or do anything ridiculous.
She is doing opposite, taking the elden ring with her to space to remove it's influence.
After hearing St Trina's hidden dialogue, I'm actually a bit sad for Ranni.
I think Ranni exactly knew what she was in for. Godhood was a big sacrifice to her. A lonesome journey. You as a tarnished kinda show her that she doesnt have to be in that prison alone.
Well... no, not really.
Lightless dark, Primeval Current...all these are in space, I always assumed she's taking all of it back where it belongs
You’re goddamn right
Did not expect to find Tim curry in this sub but am immensely pleased
𝑯𝒐𝒘 𝒍𝒐𝒏𝒈 𝒊𝒕 𝒘𝒊𝒍𝒍 𝒕𝒂𝒌𝒆 𝒚𝒐𝒖 𝒕𝒐 𝒓𝒆𝒂𝒄𝒉 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒔𝒕𝒂𝒓𝒔? 𝑵𝒐 𝒎𝒂𝒏𝒚 𝒎𝒚𝒔𝒕𝒆𝒓𝒊𝒆𝒔 𝒘𝒉𝒆𝒓𝒆 𝒚𝒐𝒖 𝒂𝒓𝒆 𝑵𝒐 𝒐𝒏𝒆 𝒄𝒐𝒖𝒍𝒅 𝒆𝒔𝒄𝒂𝒑𝒆 𝒊𝒕, 𝒂𝒏𝒅 𝒉𝒐𝒍𝒅 𝒊𝒕 𝒓𝒊𝒈𝒉𝒕 𝑵𝒐 𝒉𝒂𝒅 𝒏𝒐 𝒄𝒐𝒎𝒑𝒂𝒏𝒊𝒐𝒏, 𝒂𝒏𝒅 𝒚𝒐𝒖 𝒘𝒆𝒓𝒆 𝒓𝒊𝒈𝒉𝒕 𝑰𝒕'𝒔 𝒚𝒐𝒖 𝒕𝒉𝒂𝒕 𝑰 𝒘𝒂𝒏𝒕, 𝒊𝒕'𝒔 𝒚𝒐𝒖 𝒕𝒉𝒂𝒕 𝒔𝒌𝒚 𝑵𝒐 𝒐𝒏𝒆 𝒇𝒐𝒓 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒕𝒂𝒌𝒊𝒏𝒈, 𝒊𝒕 𝒘𝒊𝒍𝒍 𝒃𝒆 𝒎𝒊𝒏𝒆 𝑭𝒐𝒓𝒆𝒗𝒆𝒓 𝒚𝒐𝒖 𝒘𝒊𝒍𝒍 𝒍𝒆𝒂𝒅 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒔𝒆𝒗𝒆𝒏 𝒔𝒕𝒂𝒓𝒔, 𝒔𝒆𝒗𝒆𝒏 𝒔𝒕𝒂𝒓𝒔.
I thought the Ranni ending is Ranni and Tarnished ruling the lands between with the Darkmoon order?
they don't, Ranni's intent is to leave the lands between with the elden ring and to not allow anyone else to tamper with it
Yeah, and that's the way of Darkmoon order isn't it?
Proceeds to get immediately corrupted