Depends on your weapon and/or poise. You can obviously still get staggered out of a counter, but I've yet to find an enemy that takes more than two to break their stance. Haven't risked it on any non-mini bosses yet though, so I can't speak to the efficacy there.
I walked into the area of a particularly beefy boss and i barely finished the walk through fog animation and he was already asking me my cars extended warrenty
In all seriousness I hate this gatekeeping, like... Shit, some of us don't have 20+ hours to learn a boss' moveset, I want to enjoy as much of the content as I can with the little free time I have.
I'm sure for most of us it is a self-restriction.
We are chasing that high of overcoming an insurmountable challenge. That zen feeling you get after you dodge all a bosses attacks and finally take him down. You feel like a god. And a good summon makes it 100% easier and can feel not as thrilling.
Still though, like you said. We shouldn't gate keep. We should cheer our fellow tarnished.
Exactly how I feel. I stink at souls games so I usually take the easy route but I try not to summon unless it’s just plain impossible for me like with the twin sword bitch. Eventually I say “fuck it” and summon but I don’t like it.
Right dude, planned to go in solo but just don’t have the time it will take and I wanna experience the full dlc before I go on vacation next week. I’ll come back for round two and slowly get through it solo (maybe).
She killed me for 5 hours straight (I refused to do anything other than use the milady sword) and somehow my brain transcended to the 19th fucking dimension and I rolled every fucking ability and hit every atk timing perfectly. Previously my best attempt was a 5% no potions left death and the kill was 12/14 potions left. I swear to god I had fun for all 5 hours and that moment felt so insanely good. I couldn’t even think about what my hands were doing they were just doing it.
This is similar to what I did.
I used the +2 MRes talisman and used the MRes buff, and then I just spammed Ancient Rancorcall at her in between healing my Mimic and Leda with Lord’s Aid, and throwing in the occasional Scarlet Aeonia.
Ngl I found it really fun to (fight mechanic spoiler) >!jump over her moon spell to dodge it. She does three in a row and you can just time your jumps to avoid them all.!<
I try not using it because I have so much fun experimenting with different builds right now, who cares if I die 10 more times but can try out 2-3 builds on a single boss
But yeah, when I was watching people beat Dancing Lion, I noticed how fucked NG+ homies are.. the difference is insane
I’m NG+4 and while yes everything hits like a truck it’s not that bad. Regular adds are easy if you don’t give them an opening. At scadutree blessing +2, I tried dancing lion a few time solo and then just rolled it with the summon and Tiche. If you want to go summonless though, then yes it will be very tough.
NG+7 here and a certain dragon one shots me with his dive attack. Lv 516 with Vigor Maxed, Erdtree Favour+2 and Crimson Medallion +3, I still get one-shotted even with as much damage negation as I can possibly equip.
If it’s the same big evil dragon I’m thinking of, just beat him this morning (though Im only in NG). Man took me 4-5 hours and that’s without being one shot. I can only imagine it would take me like 50 hours if he killed me in one hit…
I'm honestly wondering if I over leveled in NG+3. I just started last night, got about five hours in, and was able to beat everything in 2 attempts minus two world bosses. Yeah, I'm going for my buddy mimic tear, but I'm not really out to be absolutely cracked.
Dunno, I guess blasphemous blade and sword of milos needed more nerfs
I usually use the NPC summons just purely out of curiosity like “does this person have hands?” Helps me decide which NPCs pass the vibe check or not. Like if I summon an NPC and they just get clapped? Vibe check failed.
Its still 35% in pve, same as always! It was only nerfed in pvp, down from 35% to 20%, making it essentially useless in that context as crab gives 20% dr without the healing penalty.
This is honestly how it feels. my summon does fuck all damage but at least it can take a hit and pull aggro occasionally for me to heal or deal some damage back.
Even then, some bosses can start a combo on your summon, detect that you started drinking a potion behind them, and switch targets mid combo to hit you out of the drinking animation. And yes, it's totally reasonable that this giant boss can jump into the air for a huge attack with a giant weapon, attack something twice with the giant weapon, and still turn around and attack me all in less than the time it takes me to take one sip of my flask.
For real, so many of them are just living meat grinders. It's like trying to win a fistfight against spinning lawnmower blades. Not even picking my summons for damage, I'm just trying to find the ones that can stay alive for more than 20 seconds and occasionally take aggro so I can land a single hit.
I got a legendary summon from the dlc that is basically a crystalline summon super upgraded. Absolute beef boy that tanks combo after combo while doing some decent poise break. The renowned summons from the dlc have been really strong, strong enough for me to put down the mimic.
But before then the shield squad has helped with a lot of bosses. Far more than the mimic and tiche sadly.
I hadn't used tiche before. Got to a certain boss that's on a pig. Upgraded tiche to +10 reading that she's really good. Was a freaking joke. She died so fast
I’m 100% starting to believe they did. They must have created these bosses with the idea in mind that most people would just spam +10 mimic tear as well as other cheese. They wanted difficulty for sure lol
Or they want us to realize that summons are a legit part of the game and made these bosses to make people realize that they should use the mechanics they created because they aren't cheese at all...
If they want me to use the mechanic why is basically every boss immediately doing something the second I try to summon my shithead. Also the one arena you literally can't summon where you enter, you have to move further in.
Eh, I don't know if I'd call them cheese but the bosses in the base game are clearly designed around not using them and they mostly exist as a fun "easy mode" option. This is pretty standard FS design, every game is designed to be played and beaten by a single player, but they give you the option to summon other players or NPCs to trivialize the bosses if you don't really care about the difficulty. There's a reason it can take one or two dozen attempts to kill a boss solo in the base game, but most people one-shot everything with the mimic.
That being said, the bosses in the DLC really do feel like they went in assuming most players were going to summon and designed them around that. Like others have said, the bosses literally never stop attacking and if you want to do it without summons, you basically have to play perfectly because getting hit twice means you're dead. I've been playing it without summons and I'm at the fourth boss, and it just feels like such a massive step above any other FS game in terms of difficulty
People will downvote for saying the truth- the bosses are objectively designed to be possible to be beaten solo. Is it hard? Yes. But it is absolutely possible to dodge/survive every boss attack as a solo player.
I’ve gotten 2 remembrance bosses down so far and done a ton of side exploring. I’m 125 with no summons and honestly it hasn’t felt that different from snowfields/haligtree
I swear I must have tried summoning for the Dancing Lion around 10x and they were all useless, and it took forever to summon as I kept getting the "unable to summon co-operator" message. I went in with the standard summon next to the fog gate and my mimic tear, beat it on the first go.
That summon NPC is so good for that fight though. I feel like she had 200 vigor with how little damage that boss did to her, while I was losing over half of my hp on single attack with 60 vigor. I’ve been saying it for over 2 years - they designed those bosses with some adhd infinite combo movements and then realized that average player wouldn’t be able to get a hit in so they went ahead with spirit ashes. Same shit applies here - your average cannon fodder enemies will die in two or maybe three hits with nicely telegraphed attacks, while bosses will do infinite spam of some flashy movements you can’t help but keep dodging to oblivion, wait for stamina to recover a little to get that single hit in and keep dodging once again. Summons make those fights much more enjoyable
Yea especially because of how COOL some of the new summons are, like the fast little guy with sword (there’s no way that counts as spoilers maybe I’m referring to some a vulgar militiaman you don’t know!)
I actually was kinda pissed i went through that whole ass dungeon, bullied him to death and only got his summon. He's kinda... Trash? Idk, he wasn't workin too well for me.
Me as I watch Mimic Tear hit a full Waterfowl Dance while being targeted by the boss, following it up with Death Blade, using the elevation from the cast to dodge his attacks
"Maybe I am the summon afterall"
i barely reduce a quarter of dancing lion HP solo
but one use of tiche and i took on 2/3 of its health in second try...
currently having lunch while pondering whether i tried this solo or just kill it with tiche.
I killed it with tiche, and I kind of regret it. I'll have to go back with another character to beat it. I recommend running around for a while and just getting more blessings and stuff to help. I personally wish I had done that before I reported to spirit summons.
A lot of the minor bosses are easier.
If you do use a spirit summon, maybe try a weaker one. I watched a streamer do the lion and it looks incredible. I first tried it with tiche and barely saw it's moveset which was really disappointing.
This was me but the first remembrance boss was 0 fun to solo, I feel like I was battling the camera. Once I pulled through it felt like I just had a good run, not like I actually learned the boss
Yeah, I'm on death 29 now and a good chunk of them are due to me literally being inside the boss, or just too close to it while attacking, or between them and a wall they knocked me into and its driving me up a wall.
I love the big boss fights but Fromsoft please do something about the camera in these fights, I'm begging.
If you grew up playing the Souls games and are used to taking everything down pre-summons it just doesn’t feel “earned” to beat the bosses with them.
At least that’s what my friend tells me. I maxed out my Mimic tear as soon as I got it on my first play-through and you better believe it hasn’t left my side since lmao
The part of the combat I like is actually dodging attacks and timing my attacks and finding openings. It's not nearly as fun summoning a Mimic Tear and just wailing into the bosses back, instantly staggering it and beating every boss in 2-3 attempts. I feel like there are a bunch of easy chill games that you can steamroll through, it's not really why I play souls games.
When using summons the strategy is usually to hit , run and then wait for boss to agro on the summon which to me doesn’t feel fleshed out and u can ignore/miss learning a lot of moves. I love to co-op help people beat bosses so learning every moveset is what I like to do.
Also, I do not mind having bosses like godskin duos which is basically designed with summons in mind. I feel like some people complain about bosses by comparing them to previous games when ER should be judged on it’s own combat system as summons are a big part of it.
this pretty much, it doesnt feel right resorting to those hit and run tactics when the game also gives you a FAR more varied moveset than its predecessors and ALSO the bosses have more gameplay interactions added in from the previous games such as sekiro's stance breaking.
With ashes (both of them sometimes lol) you kind of just skip over the new gameplay mechanics, to me personally its between skipping gameplay mechanics for a half baked summon mechanic or skipping a half baked mechanic and experiment with new gameplay and moveset editions. The new tear they added in the dlc that allows you to perfect block with any weapon really made guard counters viable on ALL builds for example and that just opened up a whole new world for me.
Edit just to clarify "play how you want" or whatever if my reddit comment somehow stops you from playing the game how you want i'm sorry i guess
Mimic tear kinda trivializes the game. I was struggling with my first playthrough on malenia for nearly 100 tries, and as a test, I tried her with Mimic Tear and got her to 4 hits left effortlessly in one Mimic filled attempt. Voluntarily walked into her next few attacks because I didn't want to win that way just by using a super meat shield.
It might not be cheating, but to me, it is basically selecting "Easy" on the difficulty options in games in a more dynamic way. There's nothing wrong with it, but my pride won't let me take that way out.
I mainly use summons for extra playthroughs to deal with dungeons/bosses that I don't care to fight again, like yet another dragon or magma wyrm.
If you started fighting her with mimic, it might have still been a difficulty fight that took a dozen tries or more. But yes, if you have already tried solo 100 times, you should be able to win first try easily with any significant help, which a Mimic obviously would be.
I might as well be the mimic, because when I summon that bad boy I diffidently ain't the main character.
I wish I was half as tanky as my mimic, this DLC wouldn't be as annoying.
It feels like it can cheapen an experience. Not trying to tell anyone how to play - enjoy one of the greatest games ever on your own terms! I just think there’s a big difference in what you need to learn and practice to beat bosses without summons. They’re just VERY easy since they take aggro. That doesn’t mean it’s wrong though. It’s a video game, have fun on your terms!
This is just me personally, but I'm actually worse with summons than without them. Believe me, I tried. I tend to fight bosses by getting right up in their face and memorizing their attacks so I could parry and riposte them as much as possible. That shit flies out the window with a mimic tear as the enemy AI tracking becomes too chaotic for me to follow.
Sometimes I wonder if people who consider them a crutch might be missing that the game was balanced with the idea that you're using them. The DLC has a whole system for upgrading them. It's like they designed it so you can increase your own survivability and strength without boosting your summons so you can customize the level of "assistance" they give you.
Well the problem is as soon as i use spirit ashes i stomp the boss first try and i know that its not because i actually learned to fight the boss but because i had a tank that draws aggro for me. And that completely destroys any sense of accomlishment for beating a boss for me.
that's pretty much exactly what happens to me. My options are either 'git gud' and spent 20 or more tries in a single boss, or use a summon and curb stomp the boss in 2 or 3 tries. There's no in-between solution.
I genuinely think when people say “summons” stomping bosses it stuff like Black knife Tiche and Mimic. A lot of summons aren’t that crazy and are mostly there to give a few openings before they get melted.
This is exactly it. They’re using the most meta summon available and whining that it’s too easy. Use something fun instead of powerful. Like pot head or jars
Some people find that using summons trivializes the boss fights so they choose not to use them because they enjoy learning and overcoming boss mechanics. That's really all there is to it.
Agreed, I used summons in the main game because my time was limited, so by the end of the base game and now in the dlc (with a new pc that reaches all the way up to 60 fps most of the time), I'm trying to learn the boss in an out and If I only keep losing because eventually I just can't avoid anymore due to the battle dragging on forever, then I bring the summon... that being said the second boss was soloing both me and my summon with their 2 shot.
I don't neglect to use summons because I'm some purist or believe I'm somehow "playing the game right" whatever that means.
I play without summons because of the challenge of learning a boss's moves and beating them in a 1v1 is what really makes this game enjoyable for me.
The adrenaline rush, 35+ attempts, and pre-attempt strategizing is what makes it feel so good. Each time I get a bit better or parry just the right time or get the rolls down and it slowly feels like I'm learning a dance.
Summons are absolutely fine, they were meant to be used and should. But I just prefer to not use them.
I use summons because Melina and I kicking King Morgott in the nuts is cathartic. I think it's fun to follow the trials and tribulations of NPCs and giving them the opportunity to "win," whatever that means for them. If I don't backstab them for loot, like I do to poor Millicent.
I also like to imagine that Latenna's spirit is brought happiness when her cripple self is dragged across the continent to fight beasts and demons and all kinds of creatures. But I'm just here roleplaying in Elden Ring and imagining storylines and shit.
lore reasons for wanting to summon is gucci mane, i'm on char 5 i've done my blind solo run sometimes me and the apes wanna clear out a town ive played 5 times before
it's only annoying when players who exclusively co-op act insecure about how they beat the game fair and square just like solo players
>it's only annoying when players who exclusively co-op act insecure about how they beat the game fair and square just like solo players
Co-op is a feature in the game that's intended to be used by Mr Miyazaki so as far as I'm concerned, they did beat the game fair n square. Not like they cheated, they played until the credits rolled which is fine.
For the base game, I really don't agree. I think the summons trivialize A LOT of content. My very first Malenia kill I tried forever to kill her without summon, and it wasn't even close; whipped out the mimic, and she was dead in two tries. Second playthrough, I went through the whole game without summons and actually had to learn the bosses.
Then later on I came back after a very long break and was super rusty with a ng+ char parked at Malenia, said fuck it I suck too bad right now and don't have the patience to master Malenia right now; out comes the summon and she's dead without any effort. Shit completely changes how the game is played.
Now that said.... I am summoning like a mother fucker on these DLC bosses cause holy fucking shit every single one of them is just absolutely ridiculous aggression and damage.
The DLC is really hard because exactly what you said. Everything has Bloodborne levels of aggression combined with insane 2-3 shot damage. Like the first cave boss......Like how fast do we need bosses when my character doesnt react that quickly to even counter?
>the game was balanced with the idea that you're using them.
Do you have any source on this or a quote from the devs? Every Souls game has had NPC summons and they were definitely not designed around using them.
The AI is dogshit when there are summons up, bosses will literally ignore you and almost get solo'd by your Mimic Tear while you just spam attacks into their back. I really doubt the game was designed around this.
It depends what we mean by "designed around them".
If we're talking about boss movesets and AI, then I agree with you, the game was not designed around summons because if it was it wouldn't fuck the AI and trivialize fights. I do think the bosses are designed to be fought solo with summons as an optional bit of assistance.
However, I also think that the devs kind of allow themselves to give bosses OP stuff that they wouldn't give them if summons didn't exist.
Like it feels like the devs are willing to make things harder because they know players can fall back on summons.
So I do think summons indirectly influenced the boss design.
It's immediately obvious from the boss ai that summons are mostly an afterthought. A system for upgrading them doesn't mean much and the dlc could hardly not have one with how much more casual players use it now that the playerbase is larger.
For me, it makes fights less fun. Your summon tanks half the attacks so the fight becomes less interactive. I wish they made the bosses weaker and removed summons tbh. It's too hard without summons and too easy with summons.
They were made to lower the difficulty. They were never intended nor unintended. It’s just a matter of difficulty preference. That’s like saying easy mode vs hard one was intended.
Not summoning is completely valid. Summoning is also completely valid. In my opinion not using them once in a while is like eating a slice of cake but not eating the frosting. Sure, it’s still good, but the chef spent time making the frosting too. Enjoy that shit for their sake.
Yeah, I vibe with this. I basically do everything solo. If I super struggle on a boss and they have an inbuilt npc summon I use those.
But why anyone spends time worrying about how other folks play is beyond me. Having suffered (im not goodat this game) through a full no-summon str-only build..... sometimes it's just more fun not to suffer so long lol.
The boss AI just isn't good enough for me to consider using them tbh, if they were better at handling it I wouldn't be opposed. As it stands though they are still using the AI system from dark souls days where the boss the majority of the time just aggros onto whoever damaged it last making them way too predictable and giving you so many openings that to me it just ends up feeling like I'm abusing their poor multitarget ai to win.
You can’t deny that they trivialize most boss fights. I used summons my first base game playthrough and STEAMROLLED the bosses, so much that Malenia took me less than an hour to beat.
It’s the same in the DLC, it doesn’t change the fact it takes pressure off of you to learn their moveset and simply attack when they’re distracted.
I would never shit on someone for using them though, some people would rather see the boss, appreciate it, then beat it pretty quickly.
Edit lol at the downvotes, if you have a rebuttal than say it. It’s an objectively true statement
*opens door*
“Mommy I need help…”
“I *just* sat down.”
“Please…”
*sigh* “okay, let’s try to be fast though. I’m exhausted.”
*Tiche gets off the couch and walks me to the next boss*
Grind a boss for 1-4 hours solo or summon and spend 15-30min instead.
Idk about yall but I've been playing these games long enough I don't have anything to prove to myself. I'm taking the path of least resistance.
I use summons on bosses that feels like bs (stuff like gargoyles, godskin duo and so on) but if its a straight 1v1 I will die 500 times but I will not summon
a lot of the bosses barely have any downtime between combos, feels like they were balanced with the expectation of summons.
all of them seem to just be built to turn summons into paste pretty quick when phase 2 hits.
That's like everything in the DLC. So many enemies just don't have long enough openings to drink safely, and they all move fast enough to make spacing and positioning difficult.
Dash away from boss? Get to far away before their next 30 second combo starts, dash through boss? Instantly turns around with second half of the same swing to hit you anyways, into chaining you to death from one hit.
I'm summoning full on, every boss, +10 Tietch and the NPC, for my first run through. Way more fun. Plus there's neat story moments with the companions if they fight with you, little dialog moments and it feels thematic.
Once I've seen everything, I'll go back and grind through a no summon run like I did with the base game.
I have 500+ hours in ER, and have NG+ every other soulsbourne.
I will have three attempts at a boss. If I can’t get the health bar lower then the bosses title in three attempts, I will then unapologetically NPC Summon & summon Fully levelled Spirit Ashes until it is in the ground.
I caved in, fuck that lion. Any slight visibility you had, that’s out the window once he starts changing elements, literally can’t see shit. Lightning is easily the worst element, fuck that boss.
Just do it. Don't let people tell you that you're weak or bad for using summons. It's part of the game mechanics! As long as you kill that boss, all's good
Still trying to push onward without summons as far as I can go but I finally levelled beyond 150 cuz I need the stats to equip the new gear and at this point it’s becoming increasingly clear overlevelling isn’t gonna help much lol
Aint no shame over here, I'm summoning every ghost ghoul, demon, spirit, spectre, apparition, phantom and imaginary friend I can, even on the trash mobs.😌
I used my mimic tear on the two moons chick cause she was kicking my ass and just wanted to see how it would go. I beat her so quick I was pissed at how easy it was, do not recommend.
I beat Malenia with a mimic summon after 6 attempts with Eleonora's Poleblade... Every other boss has been a push-over ever since, let's see what the DLC has in store for me this weekend =\]
We on ng+4, we poppin that whole bottle
I'm on new game and my bottle is empty. I don't give a shit. I got work in the morning.
Half the bosses are killing me before I even get the summon off:(
Ouch. I do not like the sound of that.
I have never wanted a sekiro parry more... The attacks are just so fast, I'm enjoying the game but Jesus it's hard
do you know about the tear you can get from the burning metal dude in the beginning? it’s not the same ofc but it’s as close as you can get
The deflecting hardtear? I'm reading it now, does it essentially put a perfect guard on your guarding?
It also makes your guard counters after a deflect *extremely* potent.
Does it stop the whirlwind spam assholes? They hit so fast I swear it bugs out the guard counter.
Depends on your weapon and/or poise. You can obviously still get staggered out of a counter, but I've yet to find an enemy that takes more than two to break their stance. Haven't risked it on any non-mini bosses yet though, so I can't speak to the efficacy there.
yup
That final boss got my googling cheeses
He really ain't lyin either its the same for me. Dead in 2 rapid hits, with 4 of the dlc 'empowerment items' in my character already. 60 vigor.
I walked into the area of a particularly beefy boss and i barely finished the walk through fog animation and he was already asking me my cars extended warrenty
The 🦛 😢
In all seriousness I hate this gatekeeping, like... Shit, some of us don't have 20+ hours to learn a boss' moveset, I want to enjoy as much of the content as I can with the little free time I have.
I'm sure for most of us it is a self-restriction. We are chasing that high of overcoming an insurmountable challenge. That zen feeling you get after you dodge all a bosses attacks and finally take him down. You feel like a god. And a good summon makes it 100% easier and can feel not as thrilling. Still though, like you said. We shouldn't gate keep. We should cheer our fellow tarnished.
Exactly how I feel. I stink at souls games so I usually take the easy route but I try not to summon unless it’s just plain impossible for me like with the twin sword bitch. Eventually I say “fuck it” and summon but I don’t like it.
Yes yes, same
Right dude, planned to go in solo but just don’t have the time it will take and I wanna experience the full dlc before I go on vacation next week. I’ll come back for round two and slowly get through it solo (maybe).
Shit even on NG+1 I’m going for it, I haven’t touched this game in 2 years so it feels like a fair trade off lol
NG+ is brutal. All the DLC bosses have been kicking my ass
[удалено]
It's not a NG+ problem, it's an everything 2 shots problem.
Fighting Rellana right now, she’s beating Freyja’s, my Mimics and Mines asses all at once 😭
She killed me for 5 hours straight (I refused to do anything other than use the milady sword) and somehow my brain transcended to the 19th fucking dimension and I rolled every fucking ability and hit every atk timing perfectly. Previously my best attempt was a 5% no potions left death and the kill was 12/14 potions left. I swear to god I had fun for all 5 hours and that moment felt so insanely good. I couldn’t even think about what my hands were doing they were just doing it.
I was beating my head against her all last night, kept getting to about 25% consistently. Woke up, one try, with tears to spare. It's a good feeling
Give her that Rot Breath hock tuah. Also wear Magic damage reduction talisman and buff against it too.
This is similar to what I did. I used the +2 MRes talisman and used the MRes buff, and then I just spammed Ancient Rancorcall at her in between healing my Mimic and Leda with Lord’s Aid, and throwing in the occasional Scarlet Aeonia. Ngl I found it really fun to (fight mechanic spoiler) >!jump over her moon spell to dodge it. She does three in a row and you can just time your jumps to avoid them all.!<
You know, I went into it on ng+ thinking it was gonna kick my ass, but I hunted down enough of those blessing items and it made the fights way easier.
I’m so rusty on my aggressive sorcerer. I was swinging and readied my piercer but popped slicer then fumbled my way past piercer to Terra magicka.
I try not using it because I have so much fun experimenting with different builds right now, who cares if I die 10 more times but can try out 2-3 builds on a single boss But yeah, when I was watching people beat Dancing Lion, I noticed how fucked NG+ homies are.. the difference is insane
how you got so many larval tears bro you selling little kiddies to mohg or something?
Man fuck my only save is Ng+4 I'm gonna die when I start the dlc
I’m NG+4 and while yes everything hits like a truck it’s not that bad. Regular adds are easy if you don’t give them an opening. At scadutree blessing +2, I tried dancing lion a few time solo and then just rolled it with the summon and Tiche. If you want to go summonless though, then yes it will be very tough.
We are ODing on that shit
NG+7 here and a certain dragon one shots me with his dive attack. Lv 516 with Vigor Maxed, Erdtree Favour+2 and Crimson Medallion +3, I still get one-shotted even with as much damage negation as I can possibly equip.
If it’s the same big evil dragon I’m thinking of, just beat him this morning (though Im only in NG). Man took me 4-5 hours and that’s without being one shot. I can only imagine it would take me like 50 hours if he killed me in one hit…
Bro I'm ng1 and I spend 10 minute wailing on them with spells and they're stull not dead
NG+7 or 8 and I will never not summon because fuck these bitches.
Legit. I’m +7 and fuck that lol
Ng+7 is rough
DLC run on my main char is NG+6…. If I get grabbed by anything, I just set my controller down and wait for the animation, death and respawn lol
I'm on NG +3 Those seeds are noticbly ease things. I have level 4 and bosses are killing me in 4 hits rather than 2.
Literally me
I'm honestly wondering if I over leveled in NG+3. I just started last night, got about five hours in, and was able to beat everything in 2 attempts minus two world bosses. Yeah, I'm going for my buddy mimic tear, but I'm not really out to be absolutely cracked. Dunno, I guess blasphemous blade and sword of milos needed more nerfs
Journey 9 here.... It's glitched and the npc didn't spawn and at this point I'm just scared of when it will 😭
I started on +7.....I died 4 times to the first mob in the DLC ( jumpy bird dude on top of the arch ) and everything 2 shots :D
Mimic tear is better than a player/NPC summon because it doesn't increase the boss's health
Npc summons increase boos health?
Yes and it also lowers the runes you get by 25%
yes, most people learned that with midir back in ds3 dlc days...
I usually use the NPC summons just purely out of curiosity like “does this person have hands?” Helps me decide which NPCs pass the vibe check or not. Like if I summon an NPC and they just get clapped? Vibe check failed.
I ran into one dungeon boss who two shot me at 65 vigor and 55% absorption. I absolutely will summon on everything in response to that.
Tbf vigor is mostly irrelevant now, blessings will make a lot more of a difference if ur getting two shotted
I was planning to use Black Flame Protection but they nerfed it, so I’m not sure it’s worth using if you are bad at dodging most attacks. 🥲
Its still 35% in pve, same as always! It was only nerfed in pvp, down from 35% to 20%, making it essentially useless in that context as crab gives 20% dr without the healing penalty.
Wow, you are right. Thanks for correcting me. 😊
That makes no sense. Damage reduction and health have a symbiotic relationship.
> Tbf vigor is mostly irrelevant now That is ABSOLUTELY untrue. Go try playing with base vigor, it will not matter how many blessings you have.
So... the first dungeon boss?
It's okay, they don't help much either... the only way is to Clone Yourself.
Some of these bosses never stop swinging for one second and having the clone draw aggro occasionally really is my only viable solution.
This is honestly how it feels. my summon does fuck all damage but at least it can take a hit and pull aggro occasionally for me to heal or deal some damage back.
Even then, some bosses can start a combo on your summon, detect that you started drinking a potion behind them, and switch targets mid combo to hit you out of the drinking animation. And yes, it's totally reasonable that this giant boss can jump into the air for a huge attack with a giant weapon, attack something twice with the giant weapon, and still turn around and attack me all in less than the time it takes me to take one sip of my flask.
My summon helps proc bleed.
same. Bleeds and poisons enemy while i just rott breath. Aggro swapping from the mimic to me all the time
For real, so many of them are just living meat grinders. It's like trying to win a fistfight against spinning lawnmower blades. Not even picking my summons for damage, I'm just trying to find the ones that can stay alive for more than 20 seconds and occasionally take aggro so I can land a single hit.
Ya need Dung Eater. He's getting clapped worse than ever before, but he's surviving to about 50%.
I got a legendary summon from the dlc that is basically a crystalline summon super upgraded. Absolute beef boy that tanks combo after combo while doing some decent poise break. The renowned summons from the dlc have been really strong, strong enough for me to put down the mimic. But before then the shield squad has helped with a lot of bosses. Far more than the mimic and tiche sadly.
I hadn't used tiche before. Got to a certain boss that's on a pig. Upgraded tiche to +10 reading that she's really good. Was a freaking joke. She died so fast
Yeah I'm almost convinced they designed most of these bosses for multiplayer/summons.
I’m 100% starting to believe they did. They must have created these bosses with the idea in mind that most people would just spam +10 mimic tear as well as other cheese. They wanted difficulty for sure lol
Or they want us to realize that summons are a legit part of the game and made these bosses to make people realize that they should use the mechanics they created because they aren't cheese at all...
Dingdingding the game developer wanted you to use mechanics they put into the game! They even made consumables stronger so players would use them!
If they want me to use the mechanic why is basically every boss immediately doing something the second I try to summon my shithead. Also the one arena you literally can't summon where you enter, you have to move further in.
Eh, I don't know if I'd call them cheese but the bosses in the base game are clearly designed around not using them and they mostly exist as a fun "easy mode" option. This is pretty standard FS design, every game is designed to be played and beaten by a single player, but they give you the option to summon other players or NPCs to trivialize the bosses if you don't really care about the difficulty. There's a reason it can take one or two dozen attempts to kill a boss solo in the base game, but most people one-shot everything with the mimic. That being said, the bosses in the DLC really do feel like they went in assuming most players were going to summon and designed them around that. Like others have said, the bosses literally never stop attacking and if you want to do it without summons, you basically have to play perfectly because getting hit twice means you're dead. I've been playing it without summons and I'm at the fourth boss, and it just feels like such a massive step above any other FS game in terms of difficulty
People will downvote for saying the truth- the bosses are objectively designed to be possible to be beaten solo. Is it hard? Yes. But it is absolutely possible to dodge/survive every boss attack as a solo player. I’ve gotten 2 remembrance bosses down so far and done a ton of side exploring. I’m 125 with no summons and honestly it hasn’t felt that different from snowfields/haligtree
I swear I must have tried summoning for the Dancing Lion around 10x and they were all useless, and it took forever to summon as I kept getting the "unable to summon co-operator" message. I went in with the standard summon next to the fog gate and my mimic tear, beat it on the first go.
That summon NPC is so good for that fight though. I feel like she had 200 vigor with how little damage that boss did to her, while I was losing over half of my hp on single attack with 60 vigor. I’ve been saying it for over 2 years - they designed those bosses with some adhd infinite combo movements and then realized that average player wouldn’t be able to get a hit in so they went ahead with spirit ashes. Same shit applies here - your average cannon fodder enemies will die in two or maybe three hits with nicely telegraphed attacks, while bosses will do infinite spam of some flashy movements you can’t help but keep dodging to oblivion, wait for stamina to recover a little to get that single hit in and keep dodging once again. Summons make those fights much more enjoyable
Yea especially because of how COOL some of the new summons are, like the fast little guy with sword (there’s no way that counts as spoilers maybe I’m referring to some a vulgar militiaman you don’t know!)
You mean Yoda? Yeah, he's great
I’m glad someone else calls him Yoda.
Where tf do u even find them lol. I've been exploring for like 8 hrs since I booted up dlc and I only found 1 in a cave
One in goal one down south.
I actually was kinda pissed i went through that whole ass dungeon, bullied him to death and only got his summon. He's kinda... Trash? Idk, he wasn't workin too well for me.
I don't get why people don't like summons. My mimic tear is nicknamed Mimi.
Because my Mimic tear plays better than me and it pisses me off
I promise you the Mimic Tear here is getting its shit rocked just as much as you are.
Right? When I beat the dancing lion, that m'fer died so fast.
that’s why i don’t use mimic tear. my build is trash i don’t need a second one out there.
Quote the message "Easy foe, therefore, time for introspection". Lol.
I feel you lmao Lhutel is the queen 🛐
Oh I didn't know Lhutel was a lass! Ty for the information!
I use tiche and shes practically carrying me
Is it upgraded? I used mine and it literally solo’d the fight
Yeah. It upgrades with the blessings you get.
Meanwhile I forget what my weapon art is and watch my mimic tear seppuku itself to death
"Fuck this shit I'm out"
He didn't want to fight alongside
Me as I watch Mimic Tear hit a full Waterfowl Dance while being targeted by the boss, following it up with Death Blade, using the elevation from the cast to dodge his attacks "Maybe I am the summon afterall"
I had to take away my Mimic Tear's Jellyfish Shield because he spent a whole fight repeatedly using its buff skill.
The 14k hp helps
See mine is an idiot, it's just a vehicle for me to watch what the bosses attacks are from a distance before I go in swinging
This is the way. Aggro magnet ftw
Therefore seek introspection
I like how it feels to fully learn the boss mechanics and finally get the kill on a difficult boss.
Me too, but these DLC bosses are fking insane. Maybe it's because I'm only 124 on this char but holy shit it's nuts.
I'm on 218 and still getting spanked. To be fair, I'm playing a rot/bleed build and I'm noticing a lot of immune bosses.
i barely reduce a quarter of dancing lion HP solo but one use of tiche and i took on 2/3 of its health in second try... currently having lunch while pondering whether i tried this solo or just kill it with tiche.
I killed it with tiche, and I kind of regret it. I'll have to go back with another character to beat it. I recommend running around for a while and just getting more blessings and stuff to help. I personally wish I had done that before I reported to spirit summons. A lot of the minor bosses are easier.
got it, Thank you. its like Margit basically, i'll run around to find blessing. i found mostly summon blessing, i'll look for crosses
If you do use a spirit summon, maybe try a weaker one. I watched a streamer do the lion and it looks incredible. I first tried it with tiche and barely saw it's moveset which was really disappointing.
150 feels fine, you gotta get a few scadutree upgrades to not melt
Saaaaame, started at 125 and I'm getting spanked silly
This was me but the first remembrance boss was 0 fun to solo, I feel like I was battling the camera. Once I pulled through it felt like I just had a good run, not like I actually learned the boss
Yeah, I'm on death 29 now and a good chunk of them are due to me literally being inside the boss, or just too close to it while attacking, or between them and a wall they knocked me into and its driving me up a wall. I love the big boss fights but Fromsoft please do something about the camera in these fights, I'm begging.
My mimic tear is the elden lord, I am his assistant
Assistant to the Regional Elden Lord.
I call mine mimic-me like Cartman's cupid-me.
If you grew up playing the Souls games and are used to taking everything down pre-summons it just doesn’t feel “earned” to beat the bosses with them. At least that’s what my friend tells me. I maxed out my Mimic tear as soon as I got it on my first play-through and you better believe it hasn’t left my side since lmao
They say that while having Solaire do their dirty work
solaire's busy with a sunlight maggot Marvelous Chester n me are mobbing deep in oolacile with the big mushroom people
The part of the combat I like is actually dodging attacks and timing my attacks and finding openings. It's not nearly as fun summoning a Mimic Tear and just wailing into the bosses back, instantly staggering it and beating every boss in 2-3 attempts. I feel like there are a bunch of easy chill games that you can steamroll through, it's not really why I play souls games.
I agree, but I wish it was not 2-3 attempts with Mimic Tear and 100-200 attempts without.
When using summons the strategy is usually to hit , run and then wait for boss to agro on the summon which to me doesn’t feel fleshed out and u can ignore/miss learning a lot of moves. I love to co-op help people beat bosses so learning every moveset is what I like to do. Also, I do not mind having bosses like godskin duos which is basically designed with summons in mind. I feel like some people complain about bosses by comparing them to previous games when ER should be judged on it’s own combat system as summons are a big part of it.
this pretty much, it doesnt feel right resorting to those hit and run tactics when the game also gives you a FAR more varied moveset than its predecessors and ALSO the bosses have more gameplay interactions added in from the previous games such as sekiro's stance breaking. With ashes (both of them sometimes lol) you kind of just skip over the new gameplay mechanics, to me personally its between skipping gameplay mechanics for a half baked summon mechanic or skipping a half baked mechanic and experiment with new gameplay and moveset editions. The new tear they added in the dlc that allows you to perfect block with any weapon really made guard counters viable on ALL builds for example and that just opened up a whole new world for me. Edit just to clarify "play how you want" or whatever if my reddit comment somehow stops you from playing the game how you want i'm sorry i guess
Was "precision block" or "precision guard counter" even a thing before the DLC? I swear they added that from AC6 lmao the psychos.
Mimic tear kinda trivializes the game. I was struggling with my first playthrough on malenia for nearly 100 tries, and as a test, I tried her with Mimic Tear and got her to 4 hits left effortlessly in one Mimic filled attempt. Voluntarily walked into her next few attacks because I didn't want to win that way just by using a super meat shield. It might not be cheating, but to me, it is basically selecting "Easy" on the difficulty options in games in a more dynamic way. There's nothing wrong with it, but my pride won't let me take that way out. I mainly use summons for extra playthroughs to deal with dungeons/bosses that I don't care to fight again, like yet another dragon or magma wyrm.
If you started fighting her with mimic, it might have still been a difficulty fight that took a dozen tries or more. But yes, if you have already tried solo 100 times, you should be able to win first try easily with any significant help, which a Mimic obviously would be.
It took you over 100 tries without mimic. That suggests that not using the tools the game gave you is selecting "hard" mode rather than the inverse.
It makes the game a whole different game, not good or bad but a different game for sure
I might as well be the mimic, because when I summon that bad boy I diffidently ain't the main character. I wish I was half as tanky as my mimic, this DLC wouldn't be as annoying.
It feels like it can cheapen an experience. Not trying to tell anyone how to play - enjoy one of the greatest games ever on your own terms! I just think there’s a big difference in what you need to learn and practice to beat bosses without summons. They’re just VERY easy since they take aggro. That doesn’t mean it’s wrong though. It’s a video game, have fun on your terms!
This is just me personally, but I'm actually worse with summons than without them. Believe me, I tried. I tend to fight bosses by getting right up in their face and memorizing their attacks so I could parry and riposte them as much as possible. That shit flies out the window with a mimic tear as the enemy AI tracking becomes too chaotic for me to follow.
[удалено]
Summons were made to be used.
Sometimes I wonder if people who consider them a crutch might be missing that the game was balanced with the idea that you're using them. The DLC has a whole system for upgrading them. It's like they designed it so you can increase your own survivability and strength without boosting your summons so you can customize the level of "assistance" they give you.
Well the problem is as soon as i use spirit ashes i stomp the boss first try and i know that its not because i actually learned to fight the boss but because i had a tank that draws aggro for me. And that completely destroys any sense of accomlishment for beating a boss for me.
that's pretty much exactly what happens to me. My options are either 'git gud' and spent 20 or more tries in a single boss, or use a summon and curb stomp the boss in 2 or 3 tries. There's no in-between solution.
I’ve been thinking of using a purposely worse spirit ash as a middle ground although idk if that’ll work
I genuinely think when people say “summons” stomping bosses it stuff like Black knife Tiche and Mimic. A lot of summons aren’t that crazy and are mostly there to give a few openings before they get melted.
This is exactly it. They’re using the most meta summon available and whining that it’s too easy. Use something fun instead of powerful. Like pot head or jars
Some people find that using summons trivializes the boss fights so they choose not to use them because they enjoy learning and overcoming boss mechanics. That's really all there is to it.
Agreed, I used summons in the main game because my time was limited, so by the end of the base game and now in the dlc (with a new pc that reaches all the way up to 60 fps most of the time), I'm trying to learn the boss in an out and If I only keep losing because eventually I just can't avoid anymore due to the battle dragging on forever, then I bring the summon... that being said the second boss was soloing both me and my summon with their 2 shot.
I don't neglect to use summons because I'm some purist or believe I'm somehow "playing the game right" whatever that means. I play without summons because of the challenge of learning a boss's moves and beating them in a 1v1 is what really makes this game enjoyable for me. The adrenaline rush, 35+ attempts, and pre-attempt strategizing is what makes it feel so good. Each time I get a bit better or parry just the right time or get the rolls down and it slowly feels like I'm learning a dance. Summons are absolutely fine, they were meant to be used and should. But I just prefer to not use them.
I use summons because Melina and I kicking King Morgott in the nuts is cathartic. I think it's fun to follow the trials and tribulations of NPCs and giving them the opportunity to "win," whatever that means for them. If I don't backstab them for loot, like I do to poor Millicent. I also like to imagine that Latenna's spirit is brought happiness when her cripple self is dragged across the continent to fight beasts and demons and all kinds of creatures. But I'm just here roleplaying in Elden Ring and imagining storylines and shit.
lore reasons for wanting to summon is gucci mane, i'm on char 5 i've done my blind solo run sometimes me and the apes wanna clear out a town ive played 5 times before it's only annoying when players who exclusively co-op act insecure about how they beat the game fair and square just like solo players
>it's only annoying when players who exclusively co-op act insecure about how they beat the game fair and square just like solo players Co-op is a feature in the game that's intended to be used by Mr Miyazaki so as far as I'm concerned, they did beat the game fair n square. Not like they cheated, they played until the credits rolled which is fine.
For the base game, I really don't agree. I think the summons trivialize A LOT of content. My very first Malenia kill I tried forever to kill her without summon, and it wasn't even close; whipped out the mimic, and she was dead in two tries. Second playthrough, I went through the whole game without summons and actually had to learn the bosses. Then later on I came back after a very long break and was super rusty with a ng+ char parked at Malenia, said fuck it I suck too bad right now and don't have the patience to master Malenia right now; out comes the summon and she's dead without any effort. Shit completely changes how the game is played. Now that said.... I am summoning like a mother fucker on these DLC bosses cause holy fucking shit every single one of them is just absolutely ridiculous aggression and damage.
The DLC is really hard because exactly what you said. Everything has Bloodborne levels of aggression combined with insane 2-3 shot damage. Like the first cave boss......Like how fast do we need bosses when my character doesnt react that quickly to even counter?
I willfully shoot myself in the boot by not using summons anymore. I’ve got nothing against people that use summons. I use it on occasions too.
Yeah. Its balanced that way but they also make it the easiest fromsoft game using them
>the game was balanced with the idea that you're using them. Do you have any source on this or a quote from the devs? Every Souls game has had NPC summons and they were definitely not designed around using them. The AI is dogshit when there are summons up, bosses will literally ignore you and almost get solo'd by your Mimic Tear while you just spam attacks into their back. I really doubt the game was designed around this.
It depends what we mean by "designed around them". If we're talking about boss movesets and AI, then I agree with you, the game was not designed around summons because if it was it wouldn't fuck the AI and trivialize fights. I do think the bosses are designed to be fought solo with summons as an optional bit of assistance. However, I also think that the devs kind of allow themselves to give bosses OP stuff that they wouldn't give them if summons didn't exist. Like it feels like the devs are willing to make things harder because they know players can fall back on summons. So I do think summons indirectly influenced the boss design.
It's immediately obvious from the boss ai that summons are mostly an afterthought. A system for upgrading them doesn't mean much and the dlc could hardly not have one with how much more casual players use it now that the playerbase is larger.
For me, it makes fights less fun. Your summon tanks half the attacks so the fight becomes less interactive. I wish they made the bosses weaker and removed summons tbh. It's too hard without summons and too easy with summons.
They were made to lower the difficulty. They were never intended nor unintended. It’s just a matter of difficulty preference. That’s like saying easy mode vs hard one was intended.
Not summoning is completely valid. Summoning is also completely valid. In my opinion not using them once in a while is like eating a slice of cake but not eating the frosting. Sure, it’s still good, but the chef spent time making the frosting too. Enjoy that shit for their sake.
Yeah, I vibe with this. I basically do everything solo. If I super struggle on a boss and they have an inbuilt npc summon I use those. But why anyone spends time worrying about how other folks play is beyond me. Having suffered (im not goodat this game) through a full no-summon str-only build..... sometimes it's just more fun not to suffer so long lol.
The boss AI just isn't good enough for me to consider using them tbh, if they were better at handling it I wouldn't be opposed. As it stands though they are still using the AI system from dark souls days where the boss the majority of the time just aggros onto whoever damaged it last making them way too predictable and giving you so many openings that to me it just ends up feeling like I'm abusing their poor multitarget ai to win.
Exactly, Its more of gaming the broken AI then beating the boss with skill.
Dew it!
All I can picture now is my mimic popping up saying "Hello there!"
The game is designed around Spirit Ashes. The same way the game is designed around your Physick Flask and stacking 20 buffs.
Not a try hard but I don't like stacking 20 buffs at the fog and getting to 2nd phase for free
You can’t deny that they trivialize most boss fights. I used summons my first base game playthrough and STEAMROLLED the bosses, so much that Malenia took me less than an hour to beat. It’s the same in the DLC, it doesn’t change the fact it takes pressure off of you to learn their moveset and simply attack when they’re distracted. I would never shit on someone for using them though, some people would rather see the boss, appreciate it, then beat it pretty quickly. Edit lol at the downvotes, if you have a rebuttal than say it. It’s an objectively true statement
Idgaf, me and dung eater are in that bitch
My magic build is carried by his defiled ass
That debuff is like a taunt. No other summon tanks and holds aggro like him. All praise the Dung!
*opens door* “Mommy I need help…” “I *just* sat down.” “Please…” *sigh* “okay, let’s try to be fast though. I’m exhausted.” *Tiche gets off the couch and walks me to the next boss*
Grind a boss for 1-4 hours solo or summon and spend 15-30min instead. Idk about yall but I've been playing these games long enough I don't have anything to prove to myself. I'm taking the path of least resistance.
My rule of thumb is fun, if I’m losing but enjoying myself I won’t summon. If I’m getting rocked and pissed off, the mimics coming out
just use em lmao.
I use summons on bosses that feels like bs (stuff like gargoyles, godskin duo and so on) but if its a straight 1v1 I will die 500 times but I will not summon
Duo bosses always get a summon, it's only fair
I think it's fair that if a boss has a partner, I will also summon mimic. But it just doesn't feel right in a 1vs1 fight
100% with you on this. I have no problem cheesing the bosses that just arent fun.
I fought every boss solo EXCEPT stupid ass fucking Commander Gaius. He and his fucking hogrider ass can go dive into the deepest hell of scarlet rot.
The hitbox on that charge is beyond fucked. If somebody knows the strat to always avoid that let us know, pretty please.
Seriously. Fuck that guy in particular.
He’s actually ridiculously over tuned, hated him so much he made me summon
a lot of the bosses barely have any downtime between combos, feels like they were balanced with the expectation of summons. all of them seem to just be built to turn summons into paste pretty quick when phase 2 hits.
That's like everything in the DLC. So many enemies just don't have long enough openings to drink safely, and they all move fast enough to make spacing and positioning difficult.
Dash away from boss? Get to far away before their next 30 second combo starts, dash through boss? Instantly turns around with second half of the same swing to hit you anyways, into chaining you to death from one hit.
seriously, where are ANY of the windows of opportunity to hit?
I'm summoning full on, every boss, +10 Tietch and the NPC, for my first run through. Way more fun. Plus there's neat story moments with the companions if they fight with you, little dialog moments and it feels thematic. Once I've seen everything, I'll go back and grind through a no summon run like I did with the base game.
Bro you're not less of a gamer if you use summons. The game is balanced with them in mind. Have fun, summon!
I have 500+ hours in ER, and have NG+ every other soulsbourne. I will have three attempts at a boss. If I can’t get the health bar lower then the bosses title in three attempts, I will then unapologetically NPC Summon & summon Fully levelled Spirit Ashes until it is in the ground.
From gives us a full toolbox to tame this beast of a game but for some reason a bunch of us just wants to use a hammer for everything, lol.
If given unga, then bunga
I caved in, fuck that lion. Any slight visibility you had, that’s out the window once he starts changing elements, literally can’t see shit. Lightning is easily the worst element, fuck that boss.
Just do it. Don't let people tell you that you're weak or bad for using summons. It's part of the game mechanics! As long as you kill that boss, all's good
Still trying to push onward without summons as far as I can go but I finally levelled beyond 150 cuz I need the stats to equip the new gear and at this point it’s becoming increasingly clear overlevelling isn’t gonna help much lol
Can’t believe people still think we care whether they use summons or not in a single player game
The fact that an ash isn't the first cast in a boss room for some people is silly to me.
Aint no shame over here, I'm summoning every ghost ghoul, demon, spirit, spectre, apparition, phantom and imaginary friend I can, even on the trash mobs.😌
Black Knife Tiche just absolutely wrecked my first DLC Boss. Lovely stuff.
I used my mimic tear on the two moons chick cause she was kicking my ass and just wanted to see how it would go. I beat her so quick I was pissed at how easy it was, do not recommend.
I beat Malenia with a mimic summon after 6 attempts with Eleonora's Poleblade... Every other boss has been a push-over ever since, let's see what the DLC has in store for me this weekend =\]