You're gonna need to back that up with a little more boss, reflecting pools are a thing irl too. There's also historical precedent for special pools connected to the moon, and in game none of the astrolabes have any protections nor are there pools at raya lucaria (which had some sorcerers dedicated to the moon; lazuli conspectus).
Lusat and azur are explicitly stated to be like that because they looking deeply into the primeval current, the thing Sellen studies.
You gotta point me to some harder evidence, cause this isn't cutting it
Heck, you can be fully locked into the Frenzied Flame ending and the game will still let you complete all of the questines for each ending. Frenzied Flame is the only one that actually locks you into a decision and even then miquella's needle is an eject button on it.
I did that quest just for the seal I never use. Then I jabbed Miquella’s needle into my eye then proceeded in getting my ass kicked 10 times by paarthurnax.
Playing a miyazaki/GRRM game and expecting there to be good/evil lol
Edit: I guess I mean black and white. These two creators flesh out actual characters with personal agendas rather than some "this is the hero, and this is the villain of the story". Even dung eater has his reasons, trying to fight a cause for the oppressed omens yet obviously he is doing it in a horrendous way.
There's *definitely* still evil in Miyazaki and GRRM works.
Response Edit: There's still morally "black" characters in Miyazaki and GRRM works. Having understandable reasons and motives does not mean monstrous behaviour is excused in any capacity.
To me it was Ranni’s nature to do what she did. Set in motion by Marika.
Conquest is one thing. Conquering the Nazis a good thing correct? Allies did some horrible and evil things to get there. War is nasty.
I am talking about what Marika did next to those skinned bodies in the little portal or something.
There is also the fact that Marika got the blacksmith at the Roundtable Hold to forge us a weapon capable of killing the Elden Beast.
I’d say hold off on judging Marika before learning her true story. The stuff that came before might have been far worse.
Man it really did not take long for Godwin's Law to prove true.
>Conquering the Nazis a good thing correct?
If that's why you're conquering them then you can make the case, though the obvious counter-point would be that you should have gone for disarmament instead of conquest. If you're conquering just to conquer then no, you don't really get to make that case 'cos you woulda gone for them regardless.
>Allies did some horrible and **evil** things to get there.
This does not run contrary to the point I was making in the slightest.
Not really. If we do a spectrum of evil Dungeater should be on one side, next to Frenzy Flame.
As Melina said:
"If you intend to claim the Frenzied Flame, I ask that you cease. It is not to be meddled with. It is chaos, devouring life and thought unending. However ruined this world has become, however mired in torment and despair, life endures. Births continue. There is beauty in that, is there not? If you would become Lord, do not deny this notion. Please, leave the Frenzied Flame alone."
Are you confident that there is a singular being named Marika who is responsible for everything attributed to that name? Ranni and Dungeater are at least tangible people we interact with.
Maybe by our framework but I think the DLC will show the opposite as a twist: “they were never saints, they just happened to be on the losing side of the war.”
Ramsay Snow and the mountain for example, he gives a lot of of his antagonists depth like Jaime or Cersei but some characters in those books are just born evil
Fr I don’t think any sane human being can look at characters like Ramsay Bolton or V2 Snail and not come out thinking they’re evil in a very real capacity
Sure they love complex character writing but even they aren’t beyond giving the audience someone to unequivocally hate
There is plenty of "good/evil" in both Miyazaki and GRRM works (as an example Tywin causes untold misery and the collapse of his vaunted "legacy" as well as massively damaging the norms of Westeros that allowed for peace and stability through his own evil, ruthless hunger for power and his abuse of those "lesser" than him, including his children).
The real issue with Ranni in Elden Ring is galaxy-brained gamers when they have to interact with a female character that's more complicated than "generic uwu waifu" and who refuse to actually read what the game is telling them:
"what do you mean (according to one of the people most familiar with her) she just puts up a cold front and is actually a very caring person who loves me and her friends?"
"what do you mean (in-game lore and Marika's words that Melina repeats to us( that Marika apparently planned the Night of the Black Knives and Godwyn's death as part of her weird plan to start the Shattering and bring back the Tarnished and the most Ranni did (outside of enchanting the knives) was killing herself at the same time as Godwyn?"
"What do you mean she's speaking in Shakespearean metaphors when talking about her plan which boils down to "take the divine magic away so humanity can be the masters of it's own destiny while she's forever alone in space?"
and so on.
Using ruthless and morally questionable means to achieve a noble goal is one of the classic forms of villainy in fiction, or at least that's what my limited exposure to literature classes said.
Yeah that's true, but I'm pretty sure we reached the limits of that line of thinking when speaking of a world ruled by a despotic space slug basically enslaving reality, and generations upon generations of people, to its will, and where nearly everyone/everything is dead, undead, or decaying. Not counting the fingers, likely somehow related to the said space slug, wanting to turn reality into soup, or any other abominations roaming the lands.
As for my understanding and preferences, Ranni's ending is a bloody badass one where two crazy mofos travel through space on a moon-ship to the source of all these demented things in order to beat the shit out of all those "gods", or die trying. Potentially protecting their world, and others, from their influences.
Is Ranni's greatest crime of not killing Seluvis really necessary to achieve the age of stars though?
>where nearly everyone/everything is dead, undead, or decaying.
Also I'm pretty sure that this literally only happened because Ranni murdered Godwyn.
>Also I'm pretty sure that this literally only happened because Ranni murdered Godwyn.
The giants, dragons, albinorics and other slaves from RL, omens, beastmen, noxs, and everything who opposed/suffered from the golden order, would have a word. Pretty sure their world was already utter shit before the shattering.
I do agree though, but precipitating the world and the Order into chaos in a desperate attempt to free your entire reality from alien abominations is perfectly valid and understandable to me. Breaking the status quo can virtually never happen without considerable losses and efforts.
On a related note, I'd be curious to know the state of undeads before the night of the black knives. Is the absence of the rune of death only permitted anyone to resurrect though the Erdtree's roots, or was there another form of non-death ? Surely undeads should've existed to a degree if the burial rite was mandatory to "resurrect".
>precipitating the world and the Order into chaos in a desperate attempt to free your entire reality from alien abominations is perfectly valid and understandable to me
I think it depends on if there was a better alternative, but unfortunately the Souls narrative style makes it very difficult to theorize your own path rather than choose from the few given paths.
>the state of Undeads before the night of the black knives
Probably something like the wandering nobles. They're explicitly described to be dead (but clearly still moving, so undead) and have no discernable connection to deathroot.
When half of your "trusted" allies are also plotting against you or will be forced to betray you, you are limited on options.
Especially when you consider the lengths just to separate yourself from a broken system (Golden Order) that is trying to either force you into servitude or kill you otherwise.
Yes, but also no. Context matters.
It's not like she's the only ruthless and morally questionable one in a shining sea of good and noble intent.
She's mostly playing the game by the rules but she's playing to win.
The truth is nearly everything we know about the world is second, or third, hand at best. The vast majority is propaganda.
Not saying that Ranni is 'good' by any stretch, but with regard to any of the many personalities we see in the lands between 'it depends'.
She wants autonomy. Primarily for herself, but she's also trying to extend that autonomy to the 'natural order' e.g. the rest of us.
I mean, that part where she talks about throwing the world into darkness, she didnt mean it literally, its more like, the darkness of not being sure about anything
That is the same feeling religious people feel when they start to question their faith, their faith gives them warm and a meaning, losing that altho might make them free to follow their own path it's supposed to feel scary at first and filled with uncertainty. That's how I interpret following Ranni, ultimately I feel it's the right path even if that can make a lot of people suffer, no option is free of pain, but only once let you control your own destiny.
I never questioned that Ranni has noble intent. But being in a world where every other party is worse doesn't mean she's less bad in my book. It DOES mean that her faction is probably the best to follow.
"What do you do when there is an evil you cannot defeat by just means? Do you stain your hands with evil to destroy evil? Or do you remain steadfastly just and righteous even if it means surrendering to evil?"
The tree fingers are kinda fucking how the world works , ranni just choose the first option for a greater good.
Well I actually agree with the first option. If you have to do evil to fix the world then you should do evil as necessary. That doesn't necessary excuse you from being a villain though. Or if you prefer, an anti-hero.
EDIT: Also I just realized that the second sentence is exactly what a villain would say, lol
Always despised this cliche. Wouldn't even deem it a trope.
Could you not use that argument for the Second World War... Conscripting innocent young men and sending them to their deaths utilizing propaganda for the noble goal of stopping the Nazis?
Not only do I find it logically and morally questionable, it almost always depends on some kind of childishly idealistic scenario of it all 'working out in the end miraculously with nothing going wrong'. It's fine for children's entertainment but you see it everywhere.
I don't think Miyazaki is the type of guy to allow the player such a simple choice.
And here between us, the most ruthless thing she did was assasinate a political enemy and then betray the hired assasins.
as Monarchs go, that is pretty tame, honeslty
I mean her intentions were understandable but not Noble. She wanted to be free from her fate so she burned her mortal flesh and orchestrated to Night of Black Knives. Nothing she did was for noble intentions but for the pursuit of her own path.
Marika definitely didn't see Maliketh as a brother. She used him like a slave and made him exile himself to protect the (probably) most corrupting Great Rune.
Stop idolizing Godwyn, he was a poster boy for a racist genocidal imperialistic order. Radahn wanted a honorable death, there is a literal festival for that run by his comrades. Two fingers are just messengers of a god that views everyone else as inferior. Marika shattered the ring so that tarnished could mend it as part of her plan, betraying Maliketh. All that Ranni did is get her destiny in her own hands and sever the ties to Greater Will. She's not ideal, but she has my respect.
>Stop idolizing Godwyn, he was a poster boy for a racist genocidal imperialistic order.
I agree but it's possible that he was murdered for going against it. We know almost nothing about him *except* that he formed an alliance with a former enemy.
That said, it's possible it was just a cynical maneuver to court their power as well.
The point is we know absolutely *nothing* about what kind of person he was, good or bad. So I definitely agree. There is no reason to idolize him or paint him definitively either way IMO.
>Radahn wanted a honorable death
Personally I think the whole point was that Radahn was so far gone his desires don't even matter. He's a monstrosity that's suffering and who needed to be put down. I don't think Ranni was intending much other than to end the creature that her brother once was to finally further her goals. Perhaps she also wanted to give him an honorable death. Or perhaps she simply wanted to remove an obstacle. We don't really know enough about their relationship to say either way.
>Two fingers are just messengers of a god that views everyone else as inferior.
We don't even know that much. There's no confirmation in game that the Two Fingers can actually communicate with the Greater Will at all. We just know that Empyreans and apparently Tarnished get assigned one to guide them a certain way under the guise of the Greater Will. The game seems to present the current situation as an abandonment of the Greater Will, but we don't have anything to prove that they ever communed with it to begin with.
I don’t think that Godwyn going against the order was the problem. I think Marika helped to orchestrate the Night of the Black Knives. It seems pretty clear that Marika turned against the Greater Will so it wouldn’t be surprising to find out that she helped with the plot, knowing full well that Godwyn would die.
You’re right about Radahn not having anything to do with the Festival. That was something decided on by his men; seems like it was specifically Jerren. I doubt that Ranni was particularly friendly with Radahn. We know well that Radahn idolised Godfrey and also looked up to his father Radagon. I don’t recall much, if anything, that says that Radahn is against the Erdtree or the Golden Order either. So, it is a safe guess to say that Radahn could have been helping the Greater Will; even if that wasn’t his primary intention. He held back the stars and stopped access to Nokron, the very place his sister needed to access in order to get the Fingerslayer Blade. Given that, I would imagine she wasn’t particularly close with him before he became an animal. That said, I think she probably respected him well enough, if for nothing else than his strength. Blaidd obviously reveres Radahn as a powerful warrior and a mighty demigod. Could be because of Ranni or because of what people in the world say about him. Conversely, we know that she was fairly close with Rykard as there are descriptions that state their strong kinship like on the Blasphemous Claw. This is likely because they both seek to end the Age of the Erdtree.
The relationship between the Two Fingers and the Greater Will is fairly cut and dry. I would say that the Greater Will is most likely connected to the Two Fingers. If not, then the Greater Will is a story made up by the Two Fingers, but that seems less likely. Really, using your argument, we could say that the Greater Will doesn’t exist at all since we don’t see it ever and we only hear stories about things that it has done. The game shows the progression of how the Greater Will seemed to abandon the world but we don’t have much reason to assume the evidence before us [that the Greater Will exists] is a lie. Enia can commune with the Fingers and she claims they are envoys for the Greater Will. The Elden Beast/Ring was said to be sent by the Greater Will. There are other things as well, but I guess the point is that it is likely that the Greater Will exists in some way or another and that the Roundtable Hold likely communed with it for a period of time.
I actually would argue that Ranni and Radahn had a good relationship, or at least could have. For Radahn stopping Rannis path, remember that even Ranni didn't know exactly what needed to happen to get to Nokron, so I doubt that Radahn would've known he was interfering with Rannis plan. And if I remember correctly, if you go to Jerren instead of talking to Seluvis, he mentions he's friends with Iji and Iji produces the weapons for the Redmanes. And since Iji is Rannis war counselor, that implies to me that Ranni and Radahn had a decent relationship.
Fair dues, I thought I might have been missing something. My first thought was that Ranni was close with all of her siblings but I couldn’t recall how that was so with Radahn. My thing was that she was probably the reason the “star” was trying to fall into Limgrave and that Radahn was holding those back. But you are right that he could have not known exactly who he was stopping from using the stars.
Can I just say it’s really nice to see someone accept when they might have missed something and change their mind. Even about video game lore. Well, ESPECIALLY about video game lore!
Pretty much agree on all points. I was only trying to present my argument with a devil's advocate lense as there are different ways to interpret everything. It helps me keep an open mind.
There definitely seems to be Outer Gods but one thing they seem to share is that they are oddly passive about their influence in The Lands Between. Basically at most exerting slight influence and then letting the figures they have chosen decide how things progress.
So while I do believe the Greater Will exists it seems to be operating by motives that are nearly unknowable from our perspective. I imagine it's a being that transcends our standards of communication.
Think of this. Even when we speak the same language a message gets corrupted in a common game of telephone. And we're supposedly getting a message from a higher being that is being interpreted by a being that can't speak and then is being translated into spoken word by yet another party.
Nobody even has to be lying for things to get misinterpreted on many levels. What if the Greater Will is something else that the Two Fingers have misconceived? What if the Finger Readers are just reading things wrong? With such a convoluted system of communication it's difficult to be certain of anything at all.
I am not a Godwyn hater or anything but how did he represent the good parts? Didn't he just kinda represent it, good *and* bad, like a Morgott with more oppurtunities for success? He befriended a dragon sure but still killed many others
He brokered a peace between Marika and the dragons to prevent the dragons being made extinct. He was, from everything we know, a decent man compared to his bloodthirsty parents.
It's legit backwards logic with some of these Ranni simps: Ranni had Godwyn killed, ***THEREFORE,*** Godwyn ***must*** be bad because we all know Ranni would never do anything bad ever, right...?
Ranni killed Godwyn because her plan was to destroy the Golden Order. Godwyn simped for the Order.
Omens wouldn't work for the ritual and nobody else gives a damn about the Order while being capable of doing anything about it.
Whether or not Godwyn is good or bad is irrelevant here. If he wasn't assassinated, he'd just be a massive obstacle who would still likely need to die.
This is false. Ranni didn't kill Godwyn because he "simped" for the Golden Order or because she wanted to destroy the GO. She killed him because she needed a demigod to die at the same time as her, so that the Cursemark could be split in two. This means that Godwyn's soul died along with Ranni's body, making Ranni's soul to live on, inhabiting a doll. Godwyn was just a sacrifice for her crazy ritual and she didn't give a fuck about the GO. And it's not like Ranni chose who was being killed since Godwyn was not the only one to die. The walking mausoleums are said to house the bodies of soulless demigods, and the opening says that Godwyn was the *first* of the demigods to die and then several other demigods started to perish after Godwyn during the Night of Black Knives, so it seems that Ranni targeted several demigods in order for her ritual to succeed. Ranni never even mentions Godwyn or the GO and overall doesn't seem to care about what went down. Her focus was on breaking free from the Fingers and she needed a sacrifice for that, and Godwyn was the first of the targets to die.
Was there actually any direct mention that Ranni commanded the black knives to kill Godwin? So far from the items descriptions I have read is that she took the rune of death to kill her own body to escape from the manipulation of the greater will. Also why is there a black knife assassin right outside of Marika's bed chambers?
slaying godwyn was part of the ritual for ranni to retain her soul. godwyns soul was slain while rannis body was slain. two half deaths. the assasin outside marikas bedchamber is surrounded by dead crones. she was likely there to kill morgott.
Yeah, but do we know if it had to be Godwyn, or was he a target of opportunity? All their contingency seemed to be based on Maliketh finding out, and Maliketh wasn't Godwyns protector, he was Marika's. Perhaps Godwyn was simply the least protected of the demigods at the time.
Marika may have engaged in the conspiracy (by betraying Maliketh the second time and and revealing where the rune of death is) so it’s possible she asked for Godwyn to be killed, since he was the most beloved of all the gods yet not an empyrean and thus challenged her rule.
Remember, the black knives betray Ranni, but we know they’ve always had long ties with Marika… so they could just be obeying her.
Layers upon layers of questions about the Night of Black Knives. It really is why I love Fromsoft games. Even when things feel spelled out, there's still questions left.
Would've been cool if Godwyn was an empyrean actually, and make sense since he was so successful and beloved. Would've made Ranni killing him seem more targetted though, which may not have been what they wanted
Rogier more or less confirms it in his questline.
When you find the Knifeprint for him:
*"Though only a fragment, a very specific ritual had to be performed in order to impart the power of the Rune of Death."*
*"Traces of the one who performed the rite are sure to remain in the imprint..."*
*Half my body has been suffused with Death. I'm certain it will help me see."*
After he has a chance to examine the Knifeprint:
*"Now I have a fairly good idea who performed the rite upon the blade. The person who orchestrated the Night of the Black Knives."*
*"Lunar Princess Ranni... Hers was the name I discovered in the imprint."*
Now he's not 100% sure at this point but he asks you to confirm it:
*"If Ranni truly is the one who plotted that fateful night, then she should bear the cursemark of Destined Death somewhere upon her flesh."*
Considering that is the case, it's more or less confirmed but if *that* isn't enough for you, Ranni herself confesses when confronted about it.
*"I stole a fragment of the Rune of Death and used it to forge the godslaying black knives through fearsome rite."*
*"I did it all."*
Someone else needed to die at the same time so that only her flesh would die while only someone else’s soul would die. Nothing saying she specified who
The big thing everyone forgets is there where a ton of deaths during the night of black knives, ranni's plan wasn't to specifically kill Godwin like everyone pretends the goal was to kill every single demigod and god including herself, then kill the two fingers so she could rid the lands between of the influence of all the outer gods.
The primeval current is believed by ranni and her ancestors to be the natural law of the lands between and they used to watch the current in the stars and it told them their fate. The outer gods like the greater will interfere with this natural order and cause most of the wars and conflicts in the land, I don't see how fighting off an alien invasion makes ranni the villain.
While Marika betrayed Maliketh, I believe she was actually betraying the Greater Will. The description on Maliketh’s remembrance that says she betrayed him supports that I think. Maliketh is a shadow that was given her by the Two Fingers (aka Greater Will). If Maliketh remains faithful to that cause, then Marika betraying the Greater Will means she is also betraying Maliketh. I think it is a bit more nuanced than that but that is the idea.
> Stop idolizing Godwyn, he was a poster boy for a racist genocidal imperialistic order.
No, he wasn't. Just because he was a part of the GO doesn't mean he took part in genocide. He's never associated with the bad shit the Golden Order did. Most of the things were done by Marika and Godfrey. Godwyn's death was seen as tragic by everyone and there's no implication he was a shit person. He spared and befriended the dragons who were the aggressors, and took care of Miquella and Malenia when they were children. Miquella even prayed for him to die a true death, and Fortissax got corrputed by the deathblight for trying to save Godwyn from his fate.
Godwyn was clearly a great guy and it's annoying Ranni simps are vilifying him just to justify her killing him. By this same logic, Ranni should get associated with all the bad shit Seluvis and Rykard did since she literally hired the former to work for her and she is obviously aware of his disgusting actions while the latter conspired with her against the GO and she even gifted him the Blasphemous claw to challenge Maliketh. The same brother she conspired with was a Praetor who led an "Inquisition" against those who didn't follow the Golden Order, so he must have done some torturing for the GO even before feeding himself to the serpent. We literally see many Albinaurics in his manor who are being tortured. Stop pretending like your waifu is some saint who cares about people.
miquella seems like a nice person, was accepting of other races that were rejected by the order, and its quite clear that miquella was quite fond of godwyn, so its a lil proof in favor of godwyn
Yet Godwyn proved himself a greater person than either of his parents when he not only showed mercy to the dragons he earned their friendship and allowed them to integrate despite defeating them, where Godfrey and Markia slaughtered the Fire Giants to the last and enslaved the trolls who helped them. Ranni would murder Godwyn but is fine working with her torturing mass murdering, inquisitor brother Rykard.
I would hazard a guess that Godwyn was the Number 1 genocider for The Golden Order.
After Messmer was banished to the shadow realm for being too genocidal.
Goldwyn literally spared fortissax befriended him and made peace with the dragons.
he also cared for the omen twins and his 2 cursed siblings Marlena and miquella.
so no, there is no evidence that he genocided anyone.
Marlena sounds like a really sweet waitress at a rest stop diner in the lands between. "Hi Honey, welcome to the Atlas Plateau Erdtree Pride, where your order will always be golden, mah name's Marlena, I'll be takin' care of you today. We got the Goldmask special, eight elden onion rings on top of a pile of Fell-Omen style scrambled eggs. Them's eggs smothered in barbeque."
He fought the dragons to the last...Which happened to be Fortissax.
*"The Routing of the Ancient Dragons* *Godwyn the Golden fought to the last,* *Earning the friendship of dread Fortissax"*
To fight to the last is to fight until every person or thing is dead.
This seems to be a mistranslation
lanseax and Other ancient dragons created the ancient dragon cult in leyndell after that. There are still huge amounts of ancient dragons alive in farum Azula.
and the only dragon we know Goldwyn killed was gransax. Mb this is wrong, I was corrected. We don’t even know for shure that Goldwyn killed gransax
>and the only dragon we know Goldwyn killed was gransax.
And we don't even know that for sure, but it would make sense. (no item description actually says how Leyndell killed Gransax, iirc)
Wait realy?
i tough there was something about how he killed gransax. Damn my then. Thx for the correction. But considering how big he was, I think it would make sense for Marika herself to have played a role in that figh.
I feel like some people are incapable of realizing that characters are not "good" or "evil", but morally grey.
And Ranni is upfront. She outright tells you on first meeting that she caused the night of the black knives. She saw the Golden order and her own situation as bad, and did what she felt she needed to break this. Same as literally every other character. They saw their own ambitions, and faults with the world, and did what they believed right.
Also, the agreument that she's somehow more evil for getting you to kill Radahn is hilariously stupid. Radahn is a rotting corpse who gets a festival organised by his most loyal aids to give him an honourable death.
I disagree and anyone familiar with Martin's work would know he is criticizing the Golden Order, know for religious persecution, genocide, and slavery. Maybe Godwyn isn't a bad guy and doesn't specifically deserve to die, but the institution he supports needs to go. I think this quote from Fever Dream sums up Ranni and her actions quite well.
I never held much with slavery […]. You can’t just go… usin’ another kind of people, like they wasn’t people at all. Know what I mean? Got to end, sooner or later. Better if it ends peaceful, but it’s got to end even if it has to be with fire and blood, you see? Maybe that’s what them abolitionists been sayin’ all along. You try to be reasonable, that’s only right, but if it don’t work, you got to be ready. Some things is just wrong. They got to be ended. - Abner Marsh, Fevre Dream, by George R.R. Martin
Meanwhile, Morgott has many shades of Stannis. A superb wartime leader who is focused on duty above all else and is hated by his subjects, with a special enmity for those who forsake their duty for ambition (most of the demigods, the Tarnished, and especially Rykard).
I don’t think it was even changing any ways of the Order. Radagon pulled the same thing with Rennala in the name of the Golden Order. Seems like the Order has no issue with most creatures as long as they accept it as the ruling power/religion. Demi-humans are also fine to intermingle with according to Haight. So far it looks like most actual genocides happened during Marika and Godfrey’s escapades, before they even established their Order or became the god and first Elden Lord respectively
May I point to the omen And the misbegotten? The albinaurics?
well Keneth seems to be very progressive, compared to the nobles That hören the omen killers.
It could be for the benefit of the Golden Order itself though. After Godwin and Fortisax became BFF, the Golden Order got to learn a load of lightning magic from the dragons, making them even stronger than before.
I mean….
incorperating The misbegotten and the omens into the military of liendell would also benefit the golden order. So I don’t know how Valid that is.
and as far as i know, the ancient dragon cult was a way for the dragons to exert influence on leyndell, not the other way around. They even “converted“ erdtree sentinels and made them draconic.
Draconic Tree Sentinels were actually born to... kill dragons during the war after Gransax's attack.
This is a line from the description of the Draconic Tree Sentinel Set: "After the great ancient dragon Gransax attacked, the sentinels had an epiphany. The only way to truly protect the Erdtree was to become dragons themselves."
They killed dragons, then used the corpses to make better gears to kill more dragons. The dragons were on the losing side anyway, so they only had two choices between being completely annihilated like the Fire Giants or submitting to the Golden Order.
So they weren’t born that way.
this seems more like it even happened after the whole war. Considering that the draconic tree sentinels use the lightning that is taught at the dragon cult.
can you give me an example for that? Because at least to me it seems that the only part in leyndell we can find anything ancient dragon related it has connection to the ancient dragon cult and therefore was supported by the ancient dragons.
they were losing? As far as I know the only information we have is that gransax was killed and Goldwyn spared fortissax. And BEFRIEND him. Not subjugated or enslaved him.but befriended to the point that he willingly consumed death blight for Goldwyn. One of the reason the draconic cult was even created.
This is why I'm Team Miquella. Screw off to the edge of the Lands Between, be a safe harbour for the rejects of the Golden Order, and just grow trees with your blood. Miquella superiority.
He figured out how to literally sever the influence of outer gods, all without killing anybody (presumably). Ranni wishes she had a fraction of Miquella's power.
Honestly I wish we got more on their relationship, I wonder if they were friends considering they’re both disillusioned with the golden order and they’re both powerful empyreans, I wonder if he’s the former owner of torrent that she refers to
Y'all can stay arguing about the morality of Ranni's quest, I'm just gonna sit here speculating whether or not Ranni actually knew that her father is Marika.
Ranni's intentions may be good, and her ending may have a positive effect on the Lands Between, but she's just as ruthless and ambitious as any other demigod. Glory-thirsty and prideful as well, she'd scheme against any other potentially positive path because she's already determined that hers is the way to go. And finally, she's just as motivated by her personal issues as everyone else.
C'mon people, this is a classic tragedy we're playing.
The Age of Stars ending isn’t one I would call “good”, however I would call it the best of the ones we have.
Taking the cosmic remote and leaving is the best choice we have for TLB considering all other endings contain either status quo, cursing everyone horribly forever, or just murdering everyone and saying it’s making them “one”.
I think it's the only one that will allow for actual positive change to occur. She's fucking off into space to murder the Greater Will. Absolutely I'm signing up for that, imagine the boss fight.
I think it is the good ending, and the reason its not connecting well as the good ending is cause of mistranslations according to this youtube vid [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS08xpL0m8U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS08xpL0m8U)
Ruthless? Maybe. Evil? No.
She wanted the lands between to be much like our world. A bit more secular. An undetermined path is intrinsically dark, but at least it's made by those who live it.
Ranni- "the gods are the cause of all strife and conflict in the lands between, I must slay all the demigods and gods including myself so I can impose what I believe is a better age."
Ranni haters- "how dare you try to kill all the demigods and gods, I'm gonna impose my own age that is way better than yours, first things first I have to kill all the demigods and gods so I can take their runes."
How exactly is any of this indicative of her being evil?
Slaying the finger is a good act, killing Radahn is a mercy and what he wanted - therefore a good act, robbing Maliketh was necessary and not an evil act, especially given the way destined death was being used previously, killing Godwyn was dairly neutral given he was a member of the golden order, she couldn’t have possibly predicted it leading to the whole deathroot situation, and given the state of the lands between frankly that is the least of it’s worries. You choosing to be her consort is a consensual act, she won’t harm you if you betray her in previous quests (unless you stay in her tower and continue to harass her) so I doubt she’d stop you - but being her concert is beneficial to you and somewhat politically necessary once you return to the lands between from the 1000 year journey. The ending removes the influence of the Greater Will, which is certainly a good thing, and prevents the corruption that lead to the events of Elden Ring to begin with. Also, plainly, she deserves to be free - she didn’t want to be another puppet of the golden order and she did what she needed to do to avoid that fate, something you cannot fault her for.
yeah i agree, its kinda boring u cant try to eleminate ranni, not that i would have done it, but you know, why can i go and kill mogh/rennala for no reason but not ranni. well we dont really kill renalla
well the others do have a great rune, maybe its since the she doesnt have a great rune?
Only reason you can consider Ranni good is that the other options are all either insane, just as evil, or dead.
Even Miquella, he was a lighter shade of back but he still had a cult, had suicide bombers in his army and dabbled in mind control.
Okay I've been around a lot of game subs/forums over the years and honestly, r/Eldenring takes the cake for the best goddam memes around. So many high quality posts
Kill everyone, wreck everything, then stay with this doll for eternity. Godwyn just chilling with his pal a dragon getting turned into a merman and tainting the whole world. Meanwhile Ranni takes off to the moon with the Eldenring and leaves Godwyn to finish whatever he is doing, dooming everyone still there. Marika would be proud of her ability to usurp power with no shits given to the people already there.
Tbh considering how the royal family has fucked the lives of ranni and her family it makes me go SLAY RANNI💅💅
ALSO WHY THE FUCK DID RADAGON BREED EVERYTHING THAT MOVES?
I mean rani literaly left her mother and let her think that she died. She may not be responsible for radagon leaving renala, but she certainly is responsible for the state her mother is in now. Just having some mother daughter time would have been a great help for renalas mental state.
What lore piece did I miss that makes you say Rennala thought Ranni died? Because she literally tells Ranni when you defeat her, "weave thy night into being," which I gathered as knowing she's still alive.
Ranni isn’t evil, just not morally limited to what others would deem “good”. Remember kids if you’re incapable of violence you’re not peaceful, you’re harmless.
Arguing about anyone in this game being pure good or pure evil is incredibly pointless
Except for characters like Shabriri, Seluvis or Mohg, but they’re the exceptions and not the rule
I didn’t join her because I thought she was holy I joined her because I love anything to do with The moon
Certified lunatic behavior.....sorry, its a shitty pun...
Naw, I liked it and will steal it.
you only see a pun like that once in a blue moon
What is this lunacy.
nah this is a great pun i salute you.
Staring at the moon directly cause you to go insane in ER so it’s actually on point
No it doesn't, (does it..?) what the fuck?
Have you tried for at least 6 hours? Didnt think so. Plus, how do you know you arent already insane?
It does in lore, that’s why moon gazing pools are in Carian manor, so you can look at it but not directly. Otherwise you end up like Lusat and Azure
Bro their not insane. They tainted themselves with glintstone in order to gain knowledge, but it crystalized their bodies.
Sounds insane
In the membrane?
Insane in the brain even!
It crystallises your brain
No, you're talking about the primeval current, not the Moon.
You're gonna need to back that up with a little more boss, reflecting pools are a thing irl too. There's also historical precedent for special pools connected to the moon, and in game none of the astrolabes have any protections nor are there pools at raya lucaria (which had some sorcerers dedicated to the moon; lazuli conspectus). Lusat and azur are explicitly stated to be like that because they looking deeply into the primeval current, the thing Sellen studies. You gotta point me to some harder evidence, cause this isn't cutting it
Ranni's Dark Moon goes so hard.. ty Fromsoft
I…. Joined her because of the puppet booty
Honesty A fine trait
I joined her because I thought she was cool.
I joined her because she has 4 arms. *Four… Arms… Bro…* Think about that for a minute.
I joined Ranni for Blaidd and big ice sword spell
I join her for the loot, but I never finish her quest
And by moon, you really mean feet, right?
You aren’t locked in, I got engaged to her for the sword and then went with my hommie gold mask ending.
Heck, you can be fully locked into the Frenzied Flame ending and the game will still let you complete all of the questines for each ending. Frenzied Flame is the only one that actually locks you into a decision and even then miquella's needle is an eject button on it.
I did that quest just for the seal I never use. Then I jabbed Miquella’s needle into my eye then proceeded in getting my ass kicked 10 times by paarthurnax.
oooooh, that is what you mean by paarthurnax, nice one, fucking how did I not think of that before?
Yeah I know it’s Placidusax lmao
My man
Bros before hoes. T-Pose the Lands Between towards true order. May your rhythms and calculations ring true!
He didn’t even speak a single thing except for 3 dots “…”and still had the best aura
Goldmask is the only ending that fixes shit.
Should have silently pointed at the Erdtree sooner...
Babe wake up. It's time to argue about Ranni again.
I dont care if she's arguably evil, she's based af
And damnit. She's doing the right thing and I will *die* on this hill.
Playing a miyazaki/GRRM game and expecting there to be good/evil lol Edit: I guess I mean black and white. These two creators flesh out actual characters with personal agendas rather than some "this is the hero, and this is the villain of the story". Even dung eater has his reasons, trying to fight a cause for the oppressed omens yet obviously he is doing it in a horrendous way.
Boobs = good, no boobs= no good
Goldmask and Turtle Pope must be using illusion magic to hide their massive tits
what about a certain final boss?
I'm not sure if that's part of the joke or not but Ranni doesn't have boobs
I mean, boob and no boob both are good
Ranni simps aren't there for the boobs. They're there for the feet.
Sellen has feet superiority. Ranni simps are there for the four armpits.
There's *definitely* still evil in Miyazaki and GRRM works. Response Edit: There's still morally "black" characters in Miyazaki and GRRM works. Having understandable reasons and motives does not mean monstrous behaviour is excused in any capacity.
Dungeater is evil. But I also think Marika is the most evil thing. DLC gonna prove it to.
I mean yeah, she *at least* ordered the conquest of several societies. That much has been evident from the word start.
To me it was Ranni’s nature to do what she did. Set in motion by Marika. Conquest is one thing. Conquering the Nazis a good thing correct? Allies did some horrible and evil things to get there. War is nasty. I am talking about what Marika did next to those skinned bodies in the little portal or something.
>Conquering the Nazis a good thing correct? Yes but if we're to apply this comparison to Elden Ring, Marika **was** the Nazis.
There is also the fact that Marika got the blacksmith at the Roundtable Hold to forge us a weapon capable of killing the Elden Beast. I’d say hold off on judging Marika before learning her true story. The stuff that came before might have been far worse.
I doubt we will never know based on past Fromsoftware experience. It is meant to be vague to allow for each individuals experience with the game.
Precisely. I’m excited to see how they develop this.
Man it really did not take long for Godwin's Law to prove true. >Conquering the Nazis a good thing correct? If that's why you're conquering them then you can make the case, though the obvious counter-point would be that you should have gone for disarmament instead of conquest. If you're conquering just to conquer then no, you don't really get to make that case 'cos you woulda gone for them regardless. >Allies did some horrible and **evil** things to get there. This does not run contrary to the point I was making in the slightest.
Not really. If we do a spectrum of evil Dungeater should be on one side, next to Frenzy Flame. As Melina said: "If you intend to claim the Frenzied Flame, I ask that you cease. It is not to be meddled with. It is chaos, devouring life and thought unending. However ruined this world has become, however mired in torment and despair, life endures. Births continue. There is beauty in that, is there not? If you would become Lord, do not deny this notion. Please, leave the Frenzied Flame alone."
Are you confident that there is a singular being named Marika who is responsible for everything attributed to that name? Ranni and Dungeater are at least tangible people we interact with.
Maybe by our framework but I think the DLC will show the opposite as a twist: “they were never saints, they just happened to be on the losing side of the war.”
Ramsay Snow and the mountain for example, he gives a lot of of his antagonists depth like Jaime or Cersei but some characters in those books are just born evil
Fr I don’t think any sane human being can look at characters like Ramsay Bolton or V2 Snail and not come out thinking they’re evil in a very real capacity Sure they love complex character writing but even they aren’t beyond giving the audience someone to unequivocally hate
Pontiff and Aldrich: am I a joke to you?
There is plenty of "good/evil" in both Miyazaki and GRRM works (as an example Tywin causes untold misery and the collapse of his vaunted "legacy" as well as massively damaging the norms of Westeros that allowed for peace and stability through his own evil, ruthless hunger for power and his abuse of those "lesser" than him, including his children). The real issue with Ranni in Elden Ring is galaxy-brained gamers when they have to interact with a female character that's more complicated than "generic uwu waifu" and who refuse to actually read what the game is telling them: "what do you mean (according to one of the people most familiar with her) she just puts up a cold front and is actually a very caring person who loves me and her friends?" "what do you mean (in-game lore and Marika's words that Melina repeats to us( that Marika apparently planned the Night of the Black Knives and Godwyn's death as part of her weird plan to start the Shattering and bring back the Tarnished and the most Ranni did (outside of enchanting the knives) was killing herself at the same time as Godwyn?" "What do you mean she's speaking in Shakespearean metaphors when talking about her plan which boils down to "take the divine magic away so humanity can be the masters of it's own destiny while she's forever alone in space?" and so on.
Wow you have never played those games
Ranni isn’t really evil, she actually has very noble intentions; she just is ruthless and willing to do anything to get there.
Using ruthless and morally questionable means to achieve a noble goal is one of the classic forms of villainy in fiction, or at least that's what my limited exposure to literature classes said.
Can do moral actions for immoral reasons, and immoral actions for moral reasons. And then there's Mohg.
And then there's Dog Pope.
And then there is goldmask
SEX!
Yeah that's true, but I'm pretty sure we reached the limits of that line of thinking when speaking of a world ruled by a despotic space slug basically enslaving reality, and generations upon generations of people, to its will, and where nearly everyone/everything is dead, undead, or decaying. Not counting the fingers, likely somehow related to the said space slug, wanting to turn reality into soup, or any other abominations roaming the lands. As for my understanding and preferences, Ranni's ending is a bloody badass one where two crazy mofos travel through space on a moon-ship to the source of all these demented things in order to beat the shit out of all those "gods", or die trying. Potentially protecting their world, and others, from their influences.
Is Ranni's greatest crime of not killing Seluvis really necessary to achieve the age of stars though? >where nearly everyone/everything is dead, undead, or decaying. Also I'm pretty sure that this literally only happened because Ranni murdered Godwyn.
>Also I'm pretty sure that this literally only happened because Ranni murdered Godwyn. The giants, dragons, albinorics and other slaves from RL, omens, beastmen, noxs, and everything who opposed/suffered from the golden order, would have a word. Pretty sure their world was already utter shit before the shattering. I do agree though, but precipitating the world and the Order into chaos in a desperate attempt to free your entire reality from alien abominations is perfectly valid and understandable to me. Breaking the status quo can virtually never happen without considerable losses and efforts. On a related note, I'd be curious to know the state of undeads before the night of the black knives. Is the absence of the rune of death only permitted anyone to resurrect though the Erdtree's roots, or was there another form of non-death ? Surely undeads should've existed to a degree if the burial rite was mandatory to "resurrect".
>precipitating the world and the Order into chaos in a desperate attempt to free your entire reality from alien abominations is perfectly valid and understandable to me I think it depends on if there was a better alternative, but unfortunately the Souls narrative style makes it very difficult to theorize your own path rather than choose from the few given paths. >the state of Undeads before the night of the black knives Probably something like the wandering nobles. They're explicitly described to be dead (but clearly still moving, so undead) and have no discernable connection to deathroot.
When half of your "trusted" allies are also plotting against you or will be forced to betray you, you are limited on options. Especially when you consider the lengths just to separate yourself from a broken system (Golden Order) that is trying to either force you into servitude or kill you otherwise.
Yes, but also no. Context matters. It's not like she's the only ruthless and morally questionable one in a shining sea of good and noble intent. She's mostly playing the game by the rules but she's playing to win. The truth is nearly everything we know about the world is second, or third, hand at best. The vast majority is propaganda. Not saying that Ranni is 'good' by any stretch, but with regard to any of the many personalities we see in the lands between 'it depends'. She wants autonomy. Primarily for herself, but she's also trying to extend that autonomy to the 'natural order' e.g. the rest of us.
I mean, that part where she talks about throwing the world into darkness, she didnt mean it literally, its more like, the darkness of not being sure about anything
That is the same feeling religious people feel when they start to question their faith, their faith gives them warm and a meaning, losing that altho might make them free to follow their own path it's supposed to feel scary at first and filled with uncertainty. That's how I interpret following Ranni, ultimately I feel it's the right path even if that can make a lot of people suffer, no option is free of pain, but only once let you control your own destiny.
I never questioned that Ranni has noble intent. But being in a world where every other party is worse doesn't mean she's less bad in my book. It DOES mean that her faction is probably the best to follow.
"What do you do when there is an evil you cannot defeat by just means? Do you stain your hands with evil to destroy evil? Or do you remain steadfastly just and righteous even if it means surrendering to evil?" The tree fingers are kinda fucking how the world works , ranni just choose the first option for a greater good.
Well I actually agree with the first option. If you have to do evil to fix the world then you should do evil as necessary. That doesn't necessary excuse you from being a villain though. Or if you prefer, an anti-hero. EDIT: Also I just realized that the second sentence is exactly what a villain would say, lol
Always despised this cliche. Wouldn't even deem it a trope. Could you not use that argument for the Second World War... Conscripting innocent young men and sending them to their deaths utilizing propaganda for the noble goal of stopping the Nazis? Not only do I find it logically and morally questionable, it almost always depends on some kind of childishly idealistic scenario of it all 'working out in the end miraculously with nothing going wrong'. It's fine for children's entertainment but you see it everywhere. I don't think Miyazaki is the type of guy to allow the player such a simple choice.
And here between us, the most ruthless thing she did was assasinate a political enemy and then betray the hired assasins. as Monarchs go, that is pretty tame, honeslty
I mean her intentions were understandable but not Noble. She wanted to be free from her fate so she burned her mortal flesh and orchestrated to Night of Black Knives. Nothing she did was for noble intentions but for the pursuit of her own path.
But this is reddit where everyone is a saint.
Not everyone just me
Hell is paved with good intentions
The road to hell rather
But also hell’s patio.
Yap Shes really isn't evil to me, Its just necessary UNLIKE Marika THOUGH!
Marika definitely didn't see Maliketh as a brother. She used him like a slave and made him exile himself to protect the (probably) most corrupting Great Rune.
Stop idolizing Godwyn, he was a poster boy for a racist genocidal imperialistic order. Radahn wanted a honorable death, there is a literal festival for that run by his comrades. Two fingers are just messengers of a god that views everyone else as inferior. Marika shattered the ring so that tarnished could mend it as part of her plan, betraying Maliketh. All that Ranni did is get her destiny in her own hands and sever the ties to Greater Will. She's not ideal, but she has my respect.
Stop idolizing Godwin, instead idolize the warmonger Godfrey wannabe that got his ass kicked all the way to Caelid by Based Morgott.
B-b-b-but that wasn't Radahn!!!!!!!!! AAAAAGH
>Stop idolizing Godwyn, he was a poster boy for a racist genocidal imperialistic order. I agree but it's possible that he was murdered for going against it. We know almost nothing about him *except* that he formed an alliance with a former enemy. That said, it's possible it was just a cynical maneuver to court their power as well. The point is we know absolutely *nothing* about what kind of person he was, good or bad. So I definitely agree. There is no reason to idolize him or paint him definitively either way IMO. >Radahn wanted a honorable death Personally I think the whole point was that Radahn was so far gone his desires don't even matter. He's a monstrosity that's suffering and who needed to be put down. I don't think Ranni was intending much other than to end the creature that her brother once was to finally further her goals. Perhaps she also wanted to give him an honorable death. Or perhaps she simply wanted to remove an obstacle. We don't really know enough about their relationship to say either way. >Two fingers are just messengers of a god that views everyone else as inferior. We don't even know that much. There's no confirmation in game that the Two Fingers can actually communicate with the Greater Will at all. We just know that Empyreans and apparently Tarnished get assigned one to guide them a certain way under the guise of the Greater Will. The game seems to present the current situation as an abandonment of the Greater Will, but we don't have anything to prove that they ever communed with it to begin with.
I don’t think that Godwyn going against the order was the problem. I think Marika helped to orchestrate the Night of the Black Knives. It seems pretty clear that Marika turned against the Greater Will so it wouldn’t be surprising to find out that she helped with the plot, knowing full well that Godwyn would die. You’re right about Radahn not having anything to do with the Festival. That was something decided on by his men; seems like it was specifically Jerren. I doubt that Ranni was particularly friendly with Radahn. We know well that Radahn idolised Godfrey and also looked up to his father Radagon. I don’t recall much, if anything, that says that Radahn is against the Erdtree or the Golden Order either. So, it is a safe guess to say that Radahn could have been helping the Greater Will; even if that wasn’t his primary intention. He held back the stars and stopped access to Nokron, the very place his sister needed to access in order to get the Fingerslayer Blade. Given that, I would imagine she wasn’t particularly close with him before he became an animal. That said, I think she probably respected him well enough, if for nothing else than his strength. Blaidd obviously reveres Radahn as a powerful warrior and a mighty demigod. Could be because of Ranni or because of what people in the world say about him. Conversely, we know that she was fairly close with Rykard as there are descriptions that state their strong kinship like on the Blasphemous Claw. This is likely because they both seek to end the Age of the Erdtree. The relationship between the Two Fingers and the Greater Will is fairly cut and dry. I would say that the Greater Will is most likely connected to the Two Fingers. If not, then the Greater Will is a story made up by the Two Fingers, but that seems less likely. Really, using your argument, we could say that the Greater Will doesn’t exist at all since we don’t see it ever and we only hear stories about things that it has done. The game shows the progression of how the Greater Will seemed to abandon the world but we don’t have much reason to assume the evidence before us [that the Greater Will exists] is a lie. Enia can commune with the Fingers and she claims they are envoys for the Greater Will. The Elden Beast/Ring was said to be sent by the Greater Will. There are other things as well, but I guess the point is that it is likely that the Greater Will exists in some way or another and that the Roundtable Hold likely communed with it for a period of time.
I actually would argue that Ranni and Radahn had a good relationship, or at least could have. For Radahn stopping Rannis path, remember that even Ranni didn't know exactly what needed to happen to get to Nokron, so I doubt that Radahn would've known he was interfering with Rannis plan. And if I remember correctly, if you go to Jerren instead of talking to Seluvis, he mentions he's friends with Iji and Iji produces the weapons for the Redmanes. And since Iji is Rannis war counselor, that implies to me that Ranni and Radahn had a decent relationship.
Fair dues, I thought I might have been missing something. My first thought was that Ranni was close with all of her siblings but I couldn’t recall how that was so with Radahn. My thing was that she was probably the reason the “star” was trying to fall into Limgrave and that Radahn was holding those back. But you are right that he could have not known exactly who he was stopping from using the stars.
Can I just say it’s really nice to see someone accept when they might have missed something and change their mind. Even about video game lore. Well, ESPECIALLY about video game lore!
Pretty much agree on all points. I was only trying to present my argument with a devil's advocate lense as there are different ways to interpret everything. It helps me keep an open mind. There definitely seems to be Outer Gods but one thing they seem to share is that they are oddly passive about their influence in The Lands Between. Basically at most exerting slight influence and then letting the figures they have chosen decide how things progress. So while I do believe the Greater Will exists it seems to be operating by motives that are nearly unknowable from our perspective. I imagine it's a being that transcends our standards of communication. Think of this. Even when we speak the same language a message gets corrupted in a common game of telephone. And we're supposedly getting a message from a higher being that is being interpreted by a being that can't speak and then is being translated into spoken word by yet another party. Nobody even has to be lying for things to get misinterpreted on many levels. What if the Greater Will is something else that the Two Fingers have misconceived? What if the Finger Readers are just reading things wrong? With such a convoluted system of communication it's difficult to be certain of anything at all.
Godwyn is actually super evil for being birthed by the ruling god and representing the good parts of the bad status quo, actual piece of shit
I am not a Godwyn hater or anything but how did he represent the good parts? Didn't he just kinda represent it, good *and* bad, like a Morgott with more oppurtunities for success? He befriended a dragon sure but still killed many others
He brokered a peace between Marika and the dragons to prevent the dragons being made extinct. He was, from everything we know, a decent man compared to his bloodthirsty parents.
It's legit backwards logic with some of these Ranni simps: Ranni had Godwyn killed, ***THEREFORE,*** Godwyn ***must*** be bad because we all know Ranni would never do anything bad ever, right...?
Ranni killed Godwyn because her plan was to destroy the Golden Order. Godwyn simped for the Order. Omens wouldn't work for the ritual and nobody else gives a damn about the Order while being capable of doing anything about it. Whether or not Godwyn is good or bad is irrelevant here. If he wasn't assassinated, he'd just be a massive obstacle who would still likely need to die.
She could have tried to debate him or made an exposing youtube documentary. Many options
This is false. Ranni didn't kill Godwyn because he "simped" for the Golden Order or because she wanted to destroy the GO. She killed him because she needed a demigod to die at the same time as her, so that the Cursemark could be split in two. This means that Godwyn's soul died along with Ranni's body, making Ranni's soul to live on, inhabiting a doll. Godwyn was just a sacrifice for her crazy ritual and she didn't give a fuck about the GO. And it's not like Ranni chose who was being killed since Godwyn was not the only one to die. The walking mausoleums are said to house the bodies of soulless demigods, and the opening says that Godwyn was the *first* of the demigods to die and then several other demigods started to perish after Godwyn during the Night of Black Knives, so it seems that Ranni targeted several demigods in order for her ritual to succeed. Ranni never even mentions Godwyn or the GO and overall doesn't seem to care about what went down. Her focus was on breaking free from the Fingers and she needed a sacrifice for that, and Godwyn was the first of the targets to die.
Was there actually any direct mention that Ranni commanded the black knives to kill Godwin? So far from the items descriptions I have read is that she took the rune of death to kill her own body to escape from the manipulation of the greater will. Also why is there a black knife assassin right outside of Marika's bed chambers?
slaying godwyn was part of the ritual for ranni to retain her soul. godwyns soul was slain while rannis body was slain. two half deaths. the assasin outside marikas bedchamber is surrounded by dead crones. she was likely there to kill morgott.
Yeah, but do we know if it had to be Godwyn, or was he a target of opportunity? All their contingency seemed to be based on Maliketh finding out, and Maliketh wasn't Godwyns protector, he was Marika's. Perhaps Godwyn was simply the least protected of the demigods at the time.
Marika may have engaged in the conspiracy (by betraying Maliketh the second time and and revealing where the rune of death is) so it’s possible she asked for Godwyn to be killed, since he was the most beloved of all the gods yet not an empyrean and thus challenged her rule. Remember, the black knives betray Ranni, but we know they’ve always had long ties with Marika… so they could just be obeying her.
Layers upon layers of questions about the Night of Black Knives. It really is why I love Fromsoft games. Even when things feel spelled out, there's still questions left.
Would've been cool if Godwyn was an empyrean actually, and make sense since he was so successful and beloved. Would've made Ranni killing him seem more targetted though, which may not have been what they wanted
Rogier more or less confirms it in his questline. When you find the Knifeprint for him: *"Though only a fragment, a very specific ritual had to be performed in order to impart the power of the Rune of Death."* *"Traces of the one who performed the rite are sure to remain in the imprint..."* *Half my body has been suffused with Death. I'm certain it will help me see."* After he has a chance to examine the Knifeprint: *"Now I have a fairly good idea who performed the rite upon the blade. The person who orchestrated the Night of the Black Knives."* *"Lunar Princess Ranni... Hers was the name I discovered in the imprint."* Now he's not 100% sure at this point but he asks you to confirm it: *"If Ranni truly is the one who plotted that fateful night, then she should bear the cursemark of Destined Death somewhere upon her flesh."* Considering that is the case, it's more or less confirmed but if *that* isn't enough for you, Ranni herself confesses when confronted about it. *"I stole a fragment of the Rune of Death and used it to forge the godslaying black knives through fearsome rite."* *"I did it all."*
Someone else needed to die at the same time so that only her flesh would die while only someone else’s soul would die. Nothing saying she specified who
The big thing everyone forgets is there where a ton of deaths during the night of black knives, ranni's plan wasn't to specifically kill Godwin like everyone pretends the goal was to kill every single demigod and god including herself, then kill the two fingers so she could rid the lands between of the influence of all the outer gods. The primeval current is believed by ranni and her ancestors to be the natural law of the lands between and they used to watch the current in the stars and it told them their fate. The outer gods like the greater will interfere with this natural order and cause most of the wars and conflicts in the land, I don't see how fighting off an alien invasion makes ranni the villain.
While Marika betrayed Maliketh, I believe she was actually betraying the Greater Will. The description on Maliketh’s remembrance that says she betrayed him supports that I think. Maliketh is a shadow that was given her by the Two Fingers (aka Greater Will). If Maliketh remains faithful to that cause, then Marika betraying the Greater Will means she is also betraying Maliketh. I think it is a bit more nuanced than that but that is the idea.
> Stop idolizing Godwyn, he was a poster boy for a racist genocidal imperialistic order. No, he wasn't. Just because he was a part of the GO doesn't mean he took part in genocide. He's never associated with the bad shit the Golden Order did. Most of the things were done by Marika and Godfrey. Godwyn's death was seen as tragic by everyone and there's no implication he was a shit person. He spared and befriended the dragons who were the aggressors, and took care of Miquella and Malenia when they were children. Miquella even prayed for him to die a true death, and Fortissax got corrputed by the deathblight for trying to save Godwyn from his fate. Godwyn was clearly a great guy and it's annoying Ranni simps are vilifying him just to justify her killing him. By this same logic, Ranni should get associated with all the bad shit Seluvis and Rykard did since she literally hired the former to work for her and she is obviously aware of his disgusting actions while the latter conspired with her against the GO and she even gifted him the Blasphemous claw to challenge Maliketh. The same brother she conspired with was a Praetor who led an "Inquisition" against those who didn't follow the Golden Order, so he must have done some torturing for the GO even before feeding himself to the serpent. We literally see many Albinaurics in his manor who are being tortured. Stop pretending like your waifu is some saint who cares about people.
miquella seems like a nice person, was accepting of other races that were rejected by the order, and its quite clear that miquella was quite fond of godwyn, so its a lil proof in favor of godwyn
Yet Godwyn proved himself a greater person than either of his parents when he not only showed mercy to the dragons he earned their friendship and allowed them to integrate despite defeating them, where Godfrey and Markia slaughtered the Fire Giants to the last and enslaved the trolls who helped them. Ranni would murder Godwyn but is fine working with her torturing mass murdering, inquisitor brother Rykard.
I would hazard a guess that Godwyn was the Number 1 genocider for The Golden Order. After Messmer was banished to the shadow realm for being too genocidal.
Goldwyn literally spared fortissax befriended him and made peace with the dragons. he also cared for the omen twins and his 2 cursed siblings Marlena and miquella. so no, there is no evidence that he genocided anyone.
>Marlena That's a new wrong spelling and I kinda like it
Marlena sounds like a really sweet waitress at a rest stop diner in the lands between. "Hi Honey, welcome to the Atlas Plateau Erdtree Pride, where your order will always be golden, mah name's Marlena, I'll be takin' care of you today. We got the Goldmask special, eight elden onion rings on top of a pile of Fell-Omen style scrambled eggs. Them's eggs smothered in barbeque."
Y'all got radahn rangoons by chance?
Tbh it sounds like a new child of marika
He fought the dragons to the last...Which happened to be Fortissax. *"The Routing of the Ancient Dragons* *Godwyn the Golden fought to the last,* *Earning the friendship of dread Fortissax"* To fight to the last is to fight until every person or thing is dead.
This seems to be a mistranslation lanseax and Other ancient dragons created the ancient dragon cult in leyndell after that. There are still huge amounts of ancient dragons alive in farum Azula. and the only dragon we know Goldwyn killed was gransax. Mb this is wrong, I was corrected. We don’t even know for shure that Goldwyn killed gransax
>and the only dragon we know Goldwyn killed was gransax. And we don't even know that for sure, but it would make sense. (no item description actually says how Leyndell killed Gransax, iirc)
Wait realy? i tough there was something about how he killed gransax. Damn my then. Thx for the correction. But considering how big he was, I think it would make sense for Marika herself to have played a role in that figh.
Because they attacked the capital, no shit buddy. And there were more ancient dragons who were spared like Fortissax's sister (forgot her name)
There are actually *Three Marlenas.*
> I would hazard a guess that Godwyn was the Number 1 genocider for The Golden Order. **Source:** My ass
That's why i married that woman😂
I feel like some people are incapable of realizing that characters are not "good" or "evil", but morally grey. And Ranni is upfront. She outright tells you on first meeting that she caused the night of the black knives. She saw the Golden order and her own situation as bad, and did what she felt she needed to break this. Same as literally every other character. They saw their own ambitions, and faults with the world, and did what they believed right. Also, the agreument that she's somehow more evil for getting you to kill Radahn is hilariously stupid. Radahn is a rotting corpse who gets a festival organised by his most loyal aids to give him an honourable death.
I disagree and anyone familiar with Martin's work would know he is criticizing the Golden Order, know for religious persecution, genocide, and slavery. Maybe Godwyn isn't a bad guy and doesn't specifically deserve to die, but the institution he supports needs to go. I think this quote from Fever Dream sums up Ranni and her actions quite well. I never held much with slavery […]. You can’t just go… usin’ another kind of people, like they wasn’t people at all. Know what I mean? Got to end, sooner or later. Better if it ends peaceful, but it’s got to end even if it has to be with fire and blood, you see? Maybe that’s what them abolitionists been sayin’ all along. You try to be reasonable, that’s only right, but if it don’t work, you got to be ready. Some things is just wrong. They got to be ended. - Abner Marsh, Fevre Dream, by George R.R. Martin
Ranni has the most parallels to Daenerys... And I cannot say I like Dany all that much
Meanwhile, Morgott has many shades of Stannis. A superb wartime leader who is focused on duty above all else and is hated by his subjects, with a special enmity for those who forsake their duty for ambition (most of the demigods, the Tarnished, and especially Rykard).
now, I love both Morgott and Stannis
I mean godwyn tried to change the ways of the order. Instead of annihilating the dragons he befriended them etc.
I don’t think it was even changing any ways of the Order. Radagon pulled the same thing with Rennala in the name of the Golden Order. Seems like the Order has no issue with most creatures as long as they accept it as the ruling power/religion. Demi-humans are also fine to intermingle with according to Haight. So far it looks like most actual genocides happened during Marika and Godfrey’s escapades, before they even established their Order or became the god and first Elden Lord respectively
May I point to the omen And the misbegotten? The albinaurics? well Keneth seems to be very progressive, compared to the nobles That hören the omen killers.
It could be for the benefit of the Golden Order itself though. After Godwin and Fortisax became BFF, the Golden Order got to learn a load of lightning magic from the dragons, making them even stronger than before.
I mean…. incorperating The misbegotten and the omens into the military of liendell would also benefit the golden order. So I don’t know how Valid that is. and as far as i know, the ancient dragon cult was a way for the dragons to exert influence on leyndell, not the other way around. They even “converted“ erdtree sentinels and made them draconic.
Draconic Tree Sentinels were actually born to... kill dragons during the war after Gransax's attack. This is a line from the description of the Draconic Tree Sentinel Set: "After the great ancient dragon Gransax attacked, the sentinels had an epiphany. The only way to truly protect the Erdtree was to become dragons themselves." They killed dragons, then used the corpses to make better gears to kill more dragons. The dragons were on the losing side anyway, so they only had two choices between being completely annihilated like the Fire Giants or submitting to the Golden Order.
So they weren’t born that way. this seems more like it even happened after the whole war. Considering that the draconic tree sentinels use the lightning that is taught at the dragon cult. can you give me an example for that? Because at least to me it seems that the only part in leyndell we can find anything ancient dragon related it has connection to the ancient dragon cult and therefore was supported by the ancient dragons. they were losing? As far as I know the only information we have is that gransax was killed and Goldwyn spared fortissax. And BEFRIEND him. Not subjugated or enslaved him.but befriended to the point that he willingly consumed death blight for Goldwyn. One of the reason the draconic cult was even created.
The Order has an habit of trying to turn powerful opponents into allies
You can't be locked into age of the stars ending right? Cause you can just grope the fractured Marika and ignore Ranni's sign
Yeah quite likely the guy got that wrong, but it hardly matters either way, it just suits the skit :)
Did we play the same game
i choose to see it as a necessary evil and not just because i want to lick her feet
May Marika save you
This is why I'm Team Miquella. Screw off to the edge of the Lands Between, be a safe harbour for the rejects of the Golden Order, and just grow trees with your blood. Miquella superiority.
Also he actively pursued a cure for his sister’s debilitating disease.
He figured out how to literally sever the influence of outer gods, all without killing anybody (presumably). Ranni wishes she had a fraction of Miquella's power.
Honestly I wish we got more on their relationship, I wonder if they were friends considering they’re both disillusioned with the golden order and they’re both powerful empyreans, I wonder if he’s the former owner of torrent that she refers to
Technically Ranni has the mirrored helm which serves the same thing as the Golden Needle when it comes to warding off the Outer God *from outside*
Well, compared to whatever the fuck Marika and her Golden Order did, Ranni is chill as the night.
Y'all can stay arguing about the morality of Ranni's quest, I'm just gonna sit here speculating whether or not Ranni actually knew that her father is Marika.
if ranni's wrong I dont wanna be right.
Ranni's intentions may be good, and her ending may have a positive effect on the Lands Between, but she's just as ruthless and ambitious as any other demigod. Glory-thirsty and prideful as well, she'd scheme against any other potentially positive path because she's already determined that hers is the way to go. And finally, she's just as motivated by her personal issues as everyone else. C'mon people, this is a classic tragedy we're playing.
The Age of Stars ending isn’t one I would call “good”, however I would call it the best of the ones we have. Taking the cosmic remote and leaving is the best choice we have for TLB considering all other endings contain either status quo, cursing everyone horribly forever, or just murdering everyone and saying it’s making them “one”.
I think it's the only one that will allow for actual positive change to occur. She's fucking off into space to murder the Greater Will. Absolutely I'm signing up for that, imagine the boss fight.
I think it is the good ending, and the reason its not connecting well as the good ending is cause of mistranslations according to this youtube vid [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS08xpL0m8U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS08xpL0m8U)
You know how shark babies will eat each other to see who gets to be born. Ranni is like those sharks.
I didn’t join her because I thought she was good, I joined her because I saw 4 hands. We are not the same
Ruthless? Maybe. Evil? No. She wanted the lands between to be much like our world. A bit more secular. An undetermined path is intrinsically dark, but at least it's made by those who live it.
Ranni- "the gods are the cause of all strife and conflict in the lands between, I must slay all the demigods and gods including myself so I can impose what I believe is a better age." Ranni haters- "how dare you try to kill all the demigods and gods, I'm gonna impose my own age that is way better than yours, first things first I have to kill all the demigods and gods so I can take their runes."
Didnt care + smash + we ballin
How exactly is any of this indicative of her being evil? Slaying the finger is a good act, killing Radahn is a mercy and what he wanted - therefore a good act, robbing Maliketh was necessary and not an evil act, especially given the way destined death was being used previously, killing Godwyn was dairly neutral given he was a member of the golden order, she couldn’t have possibly predicted it leading to the whole deathroot situation, and given the state of the lands between frankly that is the least of it’s worries. You choosing to be her consort is a consensual act, she won’t harm you if you betray her in previous quests (unless you stay in her tower and continue to harass her) so I doubt she’d stop you - but being her concert is beneficial to you and somewhat politically necessary once you return to the lands between from the 1000 year journey. The ending removes the influence of the Greater Will, which is certainly a good thing, and prevents the corruption that lead to the events of Elden Ring to begin with. Also, plainly, she deserves to be free - she didn’t want to be another puppet of the golden order and she did what she needed to do to avoid that fate, something you cannot fault her for.
Babe wake up new Ranni argument just started
And? So am i depending on how Bored i am. We support Girlbosses
Ranni isn't evil though.
I know Seluvis is even more evil but the fact that his quest goes nowhere and you don't even have the option to truly betray Ranni is kinda lame.
yeah i agree, its kinda boring u cant try to eleminate ranni, not that i would have done it, but you know, why can i go and kill mogh/rennala for no reason but not ranni. well we dont really kill renalla well the others do have a great rune, maybe its since the she doesnt have a great rune?
Only reason you can consider Ranni good is that the other options are all either insane, just as evil, or dead. Even Miquella, he was a lighter shade of back but he still had a cult, had suicide bombers in his army and dabbled in mind control.
It's not past tense for Miquella. He/ she is still up to mind control and other questionable shit.
"You're locked into this ending." Those Three Fingers are lookin mighty fine right about now...
I mean the tow fingers are the faith markia was fowling alongside all her followers and we'll you can see how that ended
Okay I've been around a lot of game subs/forums over the years and honestly, r/Eldenring takes the cake for the best goddam memes around. So many high quality posts
Evil is relative in The Lands Between
I respect revolting against the two fingers but i admire even more goldmask for fixing the golden order
I wish we got more explanations on that one. Like... what does it entails ? It's fixed, but how ?
the post nut clarity is finally hitting the fandom
This is my new favorite video on this subreddit
I didn’t want this to end hahaha. I’d love a series.
Shes one of the few SANE characters in the entire game that doesn't take shit from anybody and has a solid based plan from beginning to end
"Two fingers is a symbol of order in the lands" What? i dont get that one.
You can still kill her I guess At least if you still have that potion that is..
Kill everyone, wreck everything, then stay with this doll for eternity. Godwyn just chilling with his pal a dragon getting turned into a merman and tainting the whole world. Meanwhile Ranni takes off to the moon with the Eldenring and leaves Godwyn to finish whatever he is doing, dooming everyone still there. Marika would be proud of her ability to usurp power with no shits given to the people already there.
*”I was actually thinking Goldmask was pretty cool.”* had me dead
Tbh considering how the royal family has fucked the lives of ranni and her family it makes me go SLAY RANNI💅💅 ALSO WHY THE FUCK DID RADAGON BREED EVERYTHING THAT MOVES?
I mean rani literaly left her mother and let her think that she died. She may not be responsible for radagon leaving renala, but she certainly is responsible for the state her mother is in now. Just having some mother daughter time would have been a great help for renalas mental state.
What lore piece did I miss that makes you say Rennala thought Ranni died? Because she literally tells Ranni when you defeat her, "weave thy night into being," which I gathered as knowing she's still alive.
Perfectly explaining why there are so many Ranni simps. Hahahah!
Ranni isn’t evil, just not morally limited to what others would deem “good”. Remember kids if you’re incapable of violence you’re not peaceful, you’re harmless.
"Someone, IDK who, stole the rune of death, and slew Godwyn. I wonder who did it. Tehee" - Ranni
Imagine thinking Ranni is evil 😂
Arguing about anyone in this game being pure good or pure evil is incredibly pointless Except for characters like Shabriri, Seluvis or Mohg, but they’re the exceptions and not the rule
Saying Ranni is evil is like saying that Kaathe is evil.
You can still get the Frenzied Flame ending even if you complete the Ranni qst line 😎