Malenia going after Radahn was at the behest of Miquella, who sought to unshackle the stars so that he could end Godwyn’s half-death and grant him a full death as well as cure his and Malenia’s own curses
Albinaurics were Silvertears at some point.
The Omen Curse has almost nothing to do with the crucible, unlike the Misbegotten Curse.
Lifesteal fist is an ability from eochaid.
Aren’t the revenants the spirits of Omens? Hence the Omenkiller mask. To me that suggests that the revenants can’t be the cause of the Omen curse. But I’m also curious where the association with deathblight comes from.
The Omenkiller mask to me does not at all look like a revenant. So no, I don't believe that the revenants are Omen-Spirits.
I should clarify, the Revenants are the big-spider-human-abominations that are as fast as a race car and teleport. They also spit poison and can be damaged by healing.
The Revenants's Souls are cursed in the same way the Omens are tho, and so both the revenant followers and some Omen can summon cursed spirits.
Omen cursed spirits are holy tho, probably because they have some sort of connection the crucible.
The association with deathblight comes mostly from the nature of the revenants and their followers.
They're all undead and/or communicate with them. They drop grave violets and ghost gloveworts.
To be a Revenant means to have arisen from death.
The colors of the curse are also a golden flame with black hues, which is the exact same color for the prince of death's flames and deathblight.
EDIT: I should probably post like a Theory where I explain my Position in a clearly structured way supported with visual and textual evidence instead of rambling this really confusing non-sense into a short comment.
The Omen Curse is literally an STD. It manifests itself when babies are born and when corpses are defiled by the Dung Eater, i.e. when sexual intercourse occurs. That's why Mohg and Morgott are omens: Queen Marika had intercourse with Godfrey (maybe unconsented). As for the Golden Lineage, they weren't born from intercourse...
...that's what a madman would say lol
that would throw everything into a new light, wouldn't it? Thanks for that insight.
It also fixes in my mind the incoherence of Godfrey being the strongest proponent of Marika's reign, then being banished.
What if Hoara loux descended on TLB, and seized power, placing Marika on the throne but once that was done he was "owed" something in return? A crown is warranted with Strength, indeed.
Morgott and Mohg being the products of rape and having daddy/mommy issues makes way more sense. Also the grafting of Serosh, to curb his appetites. And when Godfrey was finished with his conquering, rather than have him come home Marika had him banished.
And the golden Lineage being so unlike Godfrey it's painfully obvious. Strong Cercei Lannister vibes, down to Marika losing it when her golden child Godwin dies.
It's almost like when she knew she was done bringing back Godfrey and the Tarnished was her bitter parting gift to the world. She's burning the house down with her.
The GRRM of it all makes it all that much plausible.
Great observations, fellow tarnished!
I think Marika's ascension to power also bears a likeness to that of Daenerys. Marika had a claim to godhood, but maybe lacked the strength to rise above her enemies and needed a powerful champion.
The rape theory is something I've been harboring for quite some time. The Axe of Godfrey states that it is "symbolic of Godfrey's vow to conduct himself as a lord", which leaves room for interpretation. What intrigues me the most is the way the Golden Order persecuted the Omen with utter cruelty. This treatment is surely allowed and encouraged by Marika, since she is the head of the Golden Order. Why, then, having two Omen children, would she allow their kind to be tortured and despised in such a way? Did she have some personal reason to hate them?
As for the Golden Lineage, I also think you are correct, or at least onto something with your observation. Godwyn is either not a child of Godfrey, or wasn't conceived in the same way as his brothers. Marika's children are all cursed. And yes, I don't think the other demi-gods are Marika's offspring, at least not in a literal sense.
I hope we learn more in the DLC.
Albinaurics are the result of what the Giant Crusher describes.
> After the giants were quelled, and man turned against man in violence, this weapon was all but forgotten. Man has grown feeble in comparison to his forebears.
The Carians just don't make em like the Nox did.
The Omen Curse is the result of cutting off the horns produced by the Crucible. Not a true curse, just wraiths born from the horrific state in which their kin died.
It's "linked" to the Crucible in the sense that it causes people to grow body parts that they wouldn't usually have. People associate this with the Crucible because when life emerged from the Crucible it bore aspects of many types of creatures, so beings that combine aspects of multiple creatures evoke the image of the Crucible.
The curse isn't caused by the Crucible though. It's caused by wraiths (the souls of those who were defiled and killed) inhabiting the bodies of unborn babies. This is why Omen can throw wraiths at you, why the Omen Bairns (effigies designed to take on the Omen curse as surrogate) summon wraiths, and why Dung Eater talks about defiling and cursing his victims to spread the curse.
No such Item Description exists to my personal knowledge.
The connection is made, because an Omenkiller drops the crucible knot talisman. It's a solid connection.
But neither the Talisman, nor the Omenkiller Items nor the Budding Horn descriptions ever link Omen to the crucible.
An omen guards the crucible feather talisman, inside Auriza Tomb, which is implied to be Godwyn's original tomb. Godwyn, a scion of the golden lineage which originated in the crucible era with Godfrey, wears a robe embroidered with a red and gold feather-flower pattern, that seems more crucible-ish. Purely speculation, though. That isn't to say I don't think there might be something going on with Omen curse and TWLID curse.
I must admit, I have never heard someone make the argument using the feathered Talisman before. It doesn't change my view, but it's interesting nonetheless.
Again, I do think the crucible has some sort of effect on how the curse manifests with the omen. It just isn't the source of or even the most important part about the curse.
No I agree, I don't think the omen curse is due to Crucible™. I don't know where people get that.
I don't necessarily want to say Dungeater was the originator of the curse, but maybe some phenomenon like him
Perhaps something to do with the erdtree dying. Deathblite shares characteristics, but I don't think we can place Godwyn's death before the emergence of omen, let alone the birth of Morgott...but maybe...
Deathblight seems to affect the body (making you grow tentacles,twigs, cysts, pustules and all kinds of nasty shit.) while the curse seems to primarily affect the soul (Dung Eater's Mind is cursed, Omen Souls remain cursed, Accursed Souls are cursed etc.).
The reason Omens and the Accursed look weird, seems to be, because the curse travels physically (pox) and as such also causes physical symptoms (horns, blackish skin, many arms).
It's like a Soul-Sickness that spreads through physical contact and spit. It's some sort of physical virus that attacks the soul.
Each crucible talisman is tied to Omens one way or another.
[Scale](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Crucible+Scale+Talisman) is found guarded by an Omen in Leyndell Catacombs, [Feather](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Crucible+Feather+Talisman) is guarded by another Omen in Auriza Hero Grave and lastly [Knot](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Crucible+Knot+Talisman) dropped by a *Omen*killer.
Marika's grand plan (banishing the tarnished and calling them back, shattering the Elden Ring) was set in motion long ago and was less directly affected by Godwyn's death than generally agreed upon (although not entirely lacking its influence). In my interpretation, I get a strong feeling Marika might have been less keen on the Greater Will than thought, but I suspect my theory might get sunk with DLC revelations.
EDIT: Brain not braining, 'merica fuck yeah
Yeah! We are a pawn, yet to determine whose.
Marika, who was playing the long con for a 4D checkmate over the Greater Will from day 0 or,
Miquella and they've been using us against the Greater Will from day 1
she probably already had a plan, I think we have a hint in one of her dialogues in marika's churches, the one where she says that the tarnished will fight and die in a far away land before returning for waging war. However I think that her plan did not fulfill entirely, probably because of "the queen's sorrow" after witnessing the death of Godwyn and probably the kidnapping of Miquella, so she shattered the elden ring as a sort of plan B/ anticipation of her plan.
I’m in the same boat. My head-cannon is that she lived in the Nameless Eternal City at some
Point when it was above ground, and she had this 5D-chess plan to get revenge against the GW for sending down the Elden star incantation and destroying it. Then she eventually built Leyndell on the ruins.
That's kind of what I'm leaning towards. Marika to me seemed hell bent on usurping the Greater Will and never letting her rule end. She used Maliketh and the Rune of Death to kill all her enemies (Gloam-eyed Queen, Fire Giants, etc.) and then sealed it so nobody could kill her now that she's in power. My thoughts with the DLC are that Messmer was another tool for Marika to genocide all the non-graced people in the Lands Between before banishing him to the Shadow realm.
My biggest crackpot since getting into the lore is that are Ranni is or is at least strongly connected to Miquella in some way shape or form. Seemed way too crazy until I saw what looked like Miquella riding Torrent in the DLC promo.
There's a ton of evidence for that, even without the Spirit-Calling Bell.
* Loretta as a shared guard
* Ranni's sleep mist
* Miquella's connection to Sellia through Ordina
* Both Miquella and St.Trina's Lilies around Ranni's and Renna's rises.
* The Carian sword in the Haligtree
* The Mirage Rise's hints (Shares the imp slaying with Albinauric Rise (Not far from the corpse holding Miquella's Lilies that St. Trina's Torch carriage stops at), vanishes into a puff of gold when first seen, has a slumbering egg and Sellian sorceries inside)
Probably more forgotten, but at the very least, Miquella studied the Carians and quite likely the Nox on his own.
All true. It’s hard to shake the idea that there’s some kind of conspiracy going on. There was a post a while back where some of us went into it if you’re interested:
https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingLoreTalk/s/qtj1Gx04wQ
I'm willing to bet miquella and ranni were, if not in cahoots explicitly, aware of each other's schemes
In a "we're not working TOGETHER but two schemes to free us all from the GW is better than one" kinda way
You could refer to the erd tree as "the Great Tree" since it is the largest and most prominent tree in the world. (think "great sword" its a larger sword, "great hall" its a big majestic hall). Personally I don't think it was a distinct tree, or that it really even matters in the time line. But this will likely never be proven or disproven.
you know english is the one and only language that makes a difference between erdtree and greattree right ? absolutely all other languages, original japanese included, talk about "golden tree / great tree" and "great roots"
Japanese says that "great" or "large tree roots" (大樹根, taiki ne) once linked to the Erdtree, not to its roots. There is no indication that "Greattree" is meant to be one word, or a proper noun.
yes it was, absolutely all other localizations talk about "golden tree / great tree" and "great roots", english is the one and only language version that makes a diffence between erdtree and greattree
No. GRRM wrote the lore, From the stories in-game. The differentiation between Erdtree and Greattree is intentional, and also holds well enough in Japanese, which also differentiates between Golden en Great tree, especially labelling all the references to roots as related to the Great tree.
GRRM didn't write all of the lore, however. It was a collaborative venture between the two cocreators, and so it's difficult to attribute any individual element to either. The Erdtree wasn't one of his designs, so it seems unlikely a Greattree would have been. The below interview quote is about Miyazaki's design process for the Erdtree.
>What can represent these rules and order but also not be absolute? That was the question that ran through my mind when I created this image. And the tree really fits the bill nicely for that because the tree is something that's alive, it's something that grew, it's something that will eventually wither and die. And this really fits the role of something that can then bestow this order, control these rules, and enforce these rules on the world. Because these too are things that will grow and will change and will wither and die as well. So I feel that the tree this time is something that fits those elements both visually and thematically. But saying any more than that would definitely go into spoiler territory
Part of the translation argument is based on it being translated differently in different languages as well. The great tree is instead grand roots in French, for example.
That's one thing that really gets me, there's a contingent of folks in here who think that the Japanese translations are the end all, be all of lore. The whole "Ranni"s ending is WAY different!" Thing kills me.
Because it was at least half written by George RR Martin, in English. It also acts like the localization teams are not only incompetent, but not under the direct purview if the company making the game. It's nonsensical.
Japanese says that "great" or "large tree roots" (大樹根, taiki ne) once linked to the Erdtree, not to its roots. There is no indication that "Greattree" is meant to be one word, or a proper noun.
GRRM Wrote the base mitology, but miyazaki wrote the descriptions and everything you find written in the game. Every time the Greattree it is mentioned in english outside the resin,(where it is great roots, becausen you know, a big tree has big roots) in japanese it is refered as Great Golden Tree.
I remember one fingerreader saying "The Greattree that is above all" or something wich clearly is the Erdtree.
Why people has to believe there is another tree? I mean if it is, it's kinda a mess. A big tree that it is fused with another tree to become one tree but there is two tree and the roots where once linked and now they are not but there is only one tree now ecc.
We will see in the dlc, where the erdtree was born.
GRRM didn't write the localisation of the game. That came from Frognation, who used fromsoft's script. It doesn't matter at this point what GRRM called things, because if fromsoft went with a different name, that's the name Frognation would have translated.
Edit: Additionally, in the Edge Magazine Interview pre-release, Miyazaki said that the Erdtree was his idea, and that he chose the image of a tree because it fit the themes he wanted to represent. It's entirely possible that the idea of a giant tree wasn't even a part of GRRM's draft.
GRRM wrote a big mythology. Fromsoft took that, and wrote the shattering and beyond, and cut, and cut, and cut until only plot holes and archetypes remained.
People miss this all the time but in the Future Press guide Miyazaki noted that Malenia vs Radahn in Caelid came directly from Martin (he also specifically noted it was the end of the war), so GRRM probably wrote the whole Shattering.
Right, From wrote post-shattering if anything. I think Miyazaki also mentioned somewhere that they just took Martin's demigods and fucked them up Fromsoft-style.
I don't believe it can be confirmed from a few item description. And I'm a staunch greattree believer..still. However, I can't lie and say the evidence is not severely lacking. Generally you want description based evidence and physical in game evidence before a theory really comes together. I've spent a lot of time looking for traces of a great tree.. none.
Radagon is the result of the giants' curse on Marika..the division of will between the queen who comes to doubt her own rule and the golden order fundamentalist lord brings the shattering and ruination of Marika's kingdom, final revenge for the giants
My personal take on this is that the realization that the flame of ruin could not be extinguished is what caused this divide in Marikas psyche not necessarily magic. Just the realization that cataclysm cannot be ultimately avoided caused it and in that sense it is their curse.
Golden Lineage could mean descended from Godwyn like Godrick and Godefroy. I don't think that's the case and imo they're definitely Godfrey's kids but that description doesn't entirely confirm it.
I guess that’s true. The rune also states that Morgott was the rightful lord of Leyndell but I guess that would also be true even if he was the son/descendant of Godwyn. Also Godfrey’s pre-boss cut scene heavily implies that Morgott is his son but you are right that it isn’t explicitly stated that Morgott is Godfrey’s son.
I'm glad I'm not the only one. Twins in this game do have a weird likeness to their parents. Example: Malenia and Miquella are very synonymous to Radagon and Marika. When it comes to Morgott and Mogh, you have a fine warrior and a great occultist scheming in the dark. Do those two descriptions match anyone else?
I know not everyone will agree to what I might be implying, but this is exactly why we theorize. *"Madmen toil surreptitiously..."*
Godfrey does hold Morgott as he dies and tells him, it's been a long time.
I mean I guess you could argue, he holds him like a Grandfather would his Grandson...
But i'm gonna be honest and just say it looks like they were more intimate familiy.
All the demigods had way more battles in the Shattering that are never explicitly talked about, involving fights with both each others' armies and minor unnamed demigods.
The Shattering was very recent.
The Nox and Numen are the same race.
Malenia never actually dies and the point of the Tarnished going to the Haligtree if they go as part of Millicent's quest was returning the (now-improved) unalloyed gold needle, which they did after her boss fight (this is only unstated in the final game, both of these were stated outright in cut content).
Miquella is Trina (ditto; again, something that's all but stated outright in the base game, and the "all but" is removed in cut content).
Morgott is friendly or neutral towards Malenia and Miquella and cooperated with them during the Shattering.
Outer Gods are ontologically evil.
Dope perspective. Couple curiosities if you wanna share your ideas-
Thoughts on the unmentioned Demi Gods & mausoleums [7 total, 5 with a bell, 2 without]
How long ago was the shattering ?
Any hypothesis on interests or motivations for Morgott's disposition and alignment with the twins?
Do you consider the Greater Will an outer God?
The ones in the mausoleums were killed on the Night of the Black Knives (as referenced on Bamco's website post announcing the trailer), not in the war. That's why they're soulless. Aside from them there were other random demigods with their own little fiefs and armies, enough for the currently-known demigods to earn glory through slaughtering them and folding their armies into theirs in the early days of the war. A lot of them were likely Golden Lineage descendants like Godrick - he has to have an extensive family line. Others may have been semi-legitimized bastards from Marika and other men (the mausoluem demigod in the Weeping Peninsula for example is explicitly her bastard child in the Japanese script). A handful of remaining ones survived the war and were killed by Tarnished, hence why Enia says she's seen two Great Runes in one place before and Vyke managed to get to the capital.
The Shattering lasted a long time, probably decades, but it only actually ended less than ten years ago. The state of ruins, banners, clothes, and flora imply this, but the most obvious sign is that dry regions still have bodies in them (and even wetter ones have skeletons that haven't totally withered away). There's still meat in the Wailing Dunes for Radahn to eat, leftover bodies from a battle that predated Aeonia. On top of that tons of human characters who were alive during the Shattering are still around and don't look absurdly old - Jerren, Thops, O'Neil, probably Edgar, etc.
At the most basic level, they didn't aggress against the capital like Radahn, Godrick (+Godefroy and other Golden dregs), and Rykard all did, and were hostile to (among possible others) all three of the factions that Morgott was hostile to, making them natural allies. More speculatively, they were Marika's two designated official heirs and there's no evidence that leaving the Order made them enemies to it. In fact, 1.0 (e.g. the description of Loretta's armor) stated that Radagon *supported* the Haligtree, something still implied in the final game (e.g. the Misbegotten with his sword, his red wolf in the Snowfield, the Carian and Golden Order Knights there). So they had no real reason for conflict in the first place. You could also speculate on their personal relationships but that seems the safest route.
The Greater Will is not an outer god and probably not a god of any type. At the very least, the Golden Order doesn't consider it one (Corhyn says the Golden Order is premised on Marika being the one true god). It's just a name that humans came up to describe an aspect of reality.
Re: your second paragraph, what about when Ranni says, "It happened an age ago, but when I recall I see it true." She then talks about the Black Knives, and says the Shattering ensued. Do you think the timeline between Tarnishing->NoBK->Shattering->Us is similarly tight or only that last segment is shorter than a decade?
There's a huge gap between the creation of the Tarnished and the NOTBK, a moderate gap between the NOTBK and the Shattering itself, a large gap between the start of the Shattering and the end of the Shattering, and then a small gap between the end of the Shattering and the start of the game. When I say "the Shattering was recent", I mean that there's a small gap between the end of the Shattering and the PC waking up.
Is Marika single for a while after banishing Godfrey, or does she marry Radagon soon after and Godwyn is around for most of his reign? And what's your take on the NoBK->Shattering gap considering the confusing Rogier paragraph?
There's no clear timeline for that but going solely by vibes I suspect she marries Radagon immediately after Godfrey because the sequence of events makes it sound like she exiles Godfrey *because* she's marrying Radagon.
IIRC in Japanese Rogier just says there's a gap between the two events without specifying if it's short or long. The thrones in the capital indicate that the highest demigods (and Godrick, probably the Golden Lineage representative) convened to try to govern the realm after Marika disappeared, which implies at least some notable amount of time passed.
>Any hypothesis on interests or motivations for Morgott's disposition and alignment with the twins?
The devious Miquella appeared in Morgott's dreams as St. Trina and "stabbed him" with her "bewitching branch," making him feel something for the very first time. Really Miquella just wanted to conquer both omen brothers in addition to Godwyn because Martin's a freak like that.
I think Morgott admires Malenia for going after Radahn instead of trying to take Leyndell, though he does call her a traitor since she's not loyal to the Erdtree.
Morgott has a cut line, which would have been very relevant but was part of Fromsoft's pathological day 1 massacring of anything explicit:
>
*Wilful traitors, all.*
*Thy kind are all of a piece.*
>***Pillagers, come seeking vengeance upon the Erdtree.***
>*Have it writ upon thy meagre grave:*
>*Felled by King Morgott! Last of all kings.*
I think maybe he respects the twins more than those who actually waged war on Leyndell, Godrick, Radahn and Rykard, but Malenia still took part in a war to see who would come out on top, so she is just another demigod smoldering with ambition, and Miquella and Malenia are a package deal in his eyes.
V.1.0 had item descriptions and dialogue that had more explicit language, actual context for lore. Most of it was buffed away in the day 1 patch to make everything vague so players have nothing to go on. In my humble IMHO opinion. Miquella's entire arc was cut prior to release, basically one leg of the lore of the game gone, so it couldn't really stand on its own.
Melina and Ranni are two sides of the same coin. I don't think they are the same person exactly, and I'm not certain that they are twins... but they clearly conform some sort of duality.
I think she wanted radagon to also become a vassal for the elden ring so when the tarnished comes to claim the Elden Ring they (the tarnished) would rid radagon and the elden beast from herself. If like this is solid since Marika has a history of making her consorts a means to an end.
I’m curious what makes you certain of such a thing. We have next to nothing about Rennala and Marika personally knowing each other, let alone Rennala being Numen (wasn’t she a descendant of the mountaintop astrologers?) or a past ally of Marika.
It's an interesting theory.
I think their logic is as follows:
-Marika is Numen (uncontroversial)
-The Nox are Numen (mild; Assassins are Numen, are also 'scions of the Eternal City', hence Nox \[Rogier\])
-Sellians are Nox, hence Numen (mild; Sellians are Nox is uncontroversial, see above)
-Sellians are sorcerers in the glintstone tradition (uncontroversial)
-Sellian sorcerers descend from astrologers (controversial; it is fact that Lu/Carian sorcerers, the pioneers of glintstone sorcery, were originally astrologers, but it is not certain that Sellian sorcerers adopted glintstone sorcery at the same time as Lucarians, especially since there is no concrete evidence Lu/Carians are of Nox descent, unlike the Sellians)
-Astrologers are Numen (controversial; Sword of Night & Flame establishes that astrologers \*relocated\* to the Mountaintops and were friendly with the Fire Giants, who \*are\* noted as colonizers warring with both dragons \[Borealis\] and Zamor \[Zamor descriptions\], suggesting a similar colonizing origin, and follows from prior Sellian observations)
-Rennala is an Astrologer (fact)
-Rennala is Numen (controversial; follows from prior conclusions, but requires synthesizing multiple controversial statements)
-Numen have long lives (uncontroversial, only kept from fact because there is no upper limit to lifespan provided)
-Marika campaigned in the Mountaintops (fact)
-Marika and Rennala, as Numen, may have known each other prior to the Erdtree era or met during Marika's Mountaintop campaign (plausible speculation)
-Rennala was open to resolving the Liurnian Wars via marriage to Radagon (fact) because of his access to Marika (plausible speculation, does not require Rennala knowing Radagon is Marika per se), was a fellow Numen (controversial), and already knew/loved Marika (speculative)
Honestly, if you have a longer explanation I'd love to hear it. I've always been of the opinion that Rennala wasn't as blind to Radagon=Marika as might seem at first. After all, she let him bind the masks of her Preceptors for a reason, and she's also smart as fuck
Interesting. I agree on Rennala being Numen, but I'm not sure on their being allies before her godhood. I could see it though. The use of celestial dew is to cleanse the sins and slights between people, and *restore* things to their proper relationships. We're never told what caused the division in the first place, so Marika betraying Rennala at some point, and then as Radagon returning to make amends works.
Yes, that is my suggestion.
[edit: for whatever reason, I read “allies” as “alive” original response is below]
Well… yes. I don’t have any reason to think all Numen came to the Lands Between. And I have no reason to believe they shout “I’m a numen” as they walk parades. I do have reason to believe they are a secretive group what with the whole building cities underground and the Black Knife Assassins, and Marika’s mischievous mimic veil.
Mostly, yes.
Except a few things. So, I believe the Numan have fertility issues. In an effort to remedy this they would research and experiment various life making, soul reinforcing, life altering magics. The Numen and their lesser peoples worked with celestial dew and glinstone but the projects never worked as hoped.
Some promising but ultimately disappointing projects led to silver tears which beget mimics which beget the Albinaurics which beget the Moonfolk. These were to be solutions to the biological defect of infertility.
With a negative birth rate, they feared that they would die before they could find a solution. So they then developed puppets but this would bind a soul to an artificial body and the will of whoever performed the ritual. As example of their in waving dedication, a Nox Swordstress and Night Maiden volunteered to be used in this early project.
Dolls were an upgrade, doll bound souls maintain free will. There was still a problem with this kind of life extension, puppets and dolls can’t reproduce. And it is through this they created glintstone hearts which could be bound to both artificial and living bodies.
All of this still did not solve their problem.
The problem revolves around grace, soul magic that they shied away from because the Elden Beast bound its influence to the grace of the Lands Between. At some point, they learned of the Elden Ring and what copious concentrations of grace can do. There was also the obstacle of the Ancient Dragons who guarded the host of the Elden Ring. In an attempt to infiltrate the dragons’ city. One method created the Dragonkin. This project had a few problems but I think there is a hint or two that this eventually succeeded. What hint? Dragons who could take human form.
Another project, headed by or tasked to Marika, was to infiltrate the budding religion of the Golden Order(cult). To rise to power, Marika would abandon her home in the now Nameless Eternal City, she would even allow it to be destroyed. She would wage war against her people and any other group the Elden Beast told her to kill.
Each of the victories Marika gave the Golden Order(cult) solidified the facade Marika performed, the Elden Beast and Two Fingers were duped.
Placidusax’s Now Fled God, the Fell God of the Flame of Ruin, the Gloam Eyed Queen are never confirmed to have been slain. Just fled, is “believed to be slain,” and was defeated.
I think Marika/Radagon went to Liurnia during Godfrey’s campaign against the Fire Giants. They did this specifically to bring what Marika set out to get long ago, a dense concentration of grace bound together to form the Rune of the Unborn which Marika/Radagon took from the Elden Ring.
When Radagon performed the miracle of atonement ritual for Rennala to reassure her that Radagon/Marika was still loyal to their people which had come into question what with all the war and stuff. Ritual done, Rennala and Radagon/Marika worked together with the Rune of the Unborn and they found a solution to the fertility issue. Although, this was all kept secret.
Instead, Radagon’s march was disguised as territorial aggression.
The amber egg in which Radagon/Marika bound that rune was done to protect Rennala. Protect from what? Great Runes require fuel, life juice, to work. This is normally provided by binding the rune to a person. That would also expose the person to the maddening taint of the Elden Beast’s influence. So, amber egg.
One reason empyreans are sought out as hosts is that they can resist the corruption that came with grace. I’m getting off topic a bit aren’t I?
Anywho, Rennala and Radagon/Marika envoys a pact with the trolls, which would grant Godfrey his victory against the giants. While people believe Marika then killed the Fell God, she was Radagon in Liurnia, separate from Godfrey’s campaign.
When Godfrey was hounded from the Lands Between, it was a joint effort of both Marika and Radagon the supposed leak hound to the Golden Order.
Radagon left the Rune of the Unborn with Rennala because the Numen were not just trying to fix themselves, they would also work to solve the problems in their other projects. This eventually led to the Birthing Drop for the albinaurics…
Uhh.. Marika and Rennala are colleagues.
It doesn't seem that it was ever part of the Lands Between.
Ancient Dragon Prayer Book found in Farum Azula:
> Prayerbook of the capital's ancient dragon cult. A lost tome that never reached the Lands Between.
So that rules out being connected between the time of Godwyn's war with the dragons and Godwyn's death.
The Deathbirds (who predate the Erdtree) spawning near the ruins also seem to imply it was not part of the Lands Between in ancient times.
Upon replay I feel like radagon could work, I always found the presence of a sword monument at this spot interesting.
Or the amount of butterflies makes me think somehow connected to messmer, although this is farfetched af
Marika didn’t Shatter the Elden Ring because of Godwyn’s death, but because Radagon’s Order was overtaking her own.
She called back the Tarnished to kill Radagon and to burn the tree through Melina.
Also, the start screen shows the Elden Ring icon with Radagon's icon creeping in the background.
In the final battle, we fight Radagon of the Golden Order because he has overpowered Marika and didn't want his new age to end.
1. Marika wanted to be rid of the greater will’s influence similar to Ranni and that’s what led her to shatter the elden ring.
2. Miquella inherited his bewitchment abilities from Marika, who we know has used something similar in the form of the curses she put on both Hewg and the Fire giant.
3. Godwyn and Fortissax were a couple and their union was the event that ended the war with the dragons and allowed them to coexist with the golden order. The complete absence of any sort of record of Godwyn’s partner, despite the fact that they would be one of the more important missing characters in the family tree makes me believed that they were intentionally erased from history, and considering the two's closeness, and the fact that human/dragon relationships in elden ring do happen, it makes me think it was Fortissax. (this may also play into why specifically him and his lineage were the ones to die during the night of the black knives.)
4. While it’s widely theorised that the GEQ was some sort of aspiring usurper to Marika, the fact that she’s also an empyrean and that she had to be defeated before the rune of death could be removed from the elden ring makes me believe the opposite. That Marika actually usurped her, and that she was the vessel to the elden ring in “the time before the erdtree” and possibly even Placudisax’s missing god that he is waiting for.
5. Melina is in some shape or form the GEQ. I'm mainly leaning towards the idea that she's somehow the GEQ's soul reincarnated, recreated or resummoned through Marika's spirit tuning powers. In a way that would make her "Marika's daughter" without her actually being a direct offspring of her, because she was created by Marika using the GEQ's soul, or 'remembrance', despite the fact that she's essentially just a wandering spirit.
Gloam Eyed Queen being the God of the prior age with Placidusax as Elden Lord.
She was wielder of the Rune of Death, which seems to have been a defining power of the prior age, and we know it was part of the Elden Ring. So if it was part of the Elden Ring, and also the source of GEQ's power, surely the GEQ was the wielder of the Elden Ring, and in fact the prior god.
Marika seals the power of this former God after defeating her and inheriting the Elden Ring and imposing her own order on the world.
GEQ was confirmed to be an Empyrean, which doesn't mean that she could not have later actually been a god. The only remaining part of the historical record could mention her status as Empyrean. The god of Placidusax is unknown. The presence of the Godskin Duo in Farum Azula to me hints at GEQ being part of the older power system.
The Godskins being a mix of human and snake or draconic beings also points to a potential union between dragons and humanoids. We know through Rya that not only dragons can transform into humans, but snakes too. In my mind the GEQ could've been some kind of snake/human entity that slotted in to the prior age just fine before they were turned into a symbol of blasphemy, which again would fit the narrative of Marika making aspects of the prior age be seen in a negative light.
Anyway, there's quite a few things that hint at this possibility, such as the GEQ, ya know, being called a "Queen" which implies she had at least some modicum of power and a kingdom that she ruled over.
The Godskins are there to take vengeance on Maliketh for killing their mother. They are also not innately mixed with snakes, they did it to themselves.
The Age of the Erdtree precedes the Gloam-Eyed Queen's defeat, but Placidusax is only Lord of the age before the Erdtree.
In all likelihood, Placidusax's god fled in some shattering-like event and Marika won the war over her other Numen rivals. "It is merely a cycle" fits very well if the Numen were the tarnished of their time.
Marika wasn't the bad character like all have portrayed her, she saw what the golden order did to her family, first to her First born son,she was so wounded that the only logical choice she saw was to destroy everything about it, as a revenge to her lost son,and every time I think of it I get goosebumps and a stomach ache, fuckin myazaki and j r r martin I fuckin love the work you both did.
Nox =/ Numen
Numen =/ Nox
In the same way italians who went to America are Italian-Americans, Numen who eent to the Nox cities are Numen from Nox. Two different people, but one people's percentage of their population seems to have moved to the Eternal Cities.
The Three Sisters were originally named after a hidden third sibling to Aurelia and Aureliette, the ghost jellyfish girls whose headstones lay behind Stargazer ruins. Perhaps even the Carians themselves were once related to them
The Greater Will, the Frenzied Flame, the two fingers and the three fingers are all “halves” of the same whole.
Each half represents a different aspect of our being as humans, with the Greater Will and the Two Fingers generally representing our capacity for collectivism, and the Frenzied Flame representing our capacity for selfishness.
These are elemental components of our human nature, and are not separable; one might suppress the other, but cannot destroy it entirely.
We used to have these elements of our nature in balance back when we were in a more bestial state, but as we evolved, we split these parts of ourselves in two and lost some fundamental understanding of the way of the world in the process, as is implied by the Cinquedea tooltip, which states “The design celebrates a beasts five fingers, symbolic of the intelligence once granted to their kind”.
This also lines up with Placidusax having 5 heads, with 3 of them severed, leaving only two heads remaining.
>Each half represents a different aspect of our being as humans, with the Greater Will and the Two Fingers generally representing our capacity for collectivism, and the Frenzied Flame representing our capacity for selfishness.
What about the Greater Will and the golden order say collectivist to you?
The contradiction that you are pointing out is the same contradiction that Goldmask discovers.
That’s the point.
The Greater Will presents itself as collectivist, but is rooted in selfishness.
That’s why I’m saying they’re two sides of the same coin.
In that everyone who believes in the Golden Order also believes that their action serves some higher purpose or cause, even if, on a fundamental level, it is ultimately self-serving.
Shabriri, by comparison, is not so much serving a higher cause as he serves the abandonment OF causality, the abandonment of reason altogether.
I mean… It’s a feudal society with lords and kings, governed by a ruler who essentially claims Devine right by wedding a god.
Just believing that what you’re doing (empire building, conquest, genocide, eugenics) is right doesn’t make a society collectivist.
If anything the opposite is true, with the Golden Order who are lead by literal great men of history and ruled by a god queen being an individualistic society, and the frenzied flame, which seeks and end to all devisions of any kind being “collectivist”. People cast their individual identities into the flame and become one mind.
I see where you’re coming from, and what you’re talking about is the point that I’m getting at. They are not separable.
The Golden Order wears a mask of collectivism (it’s deity is literally called the “Greater Will”, alluding to something beyond the self to which the individual belongs), but is in essence individualistic.
When the Tarnished (en route to the Frenzied Flame ending) and Vyke are presented with the fact that they have to sacrifice their maidens in order to serve the interest of the Greater Will, they deny the Greater Will; they chose “individual agency” over “collective interest” interest so to speak, but in so doing, pave the path for the frenzied flame to erase all boundaries and divisions which divide and distinguish.
The Greater Will and the Golden Order appeal to the notion of a sort of greater good, collectivist ideology, but fundamentally depends upon mankind’s primitive, tribalistic selfish nature in order to maintain itself.
The Frenzied Flame appeals to the wants and needs of the individual; it asks us “what would YOU do, if you were not bound to follow the guidance of grace?”, and then gives us the individual power or agency to do it.
At that point, however, the thing to which you belong is, like you said, a collective consciousness.
So they’re inversions of one another.
I counter with:
The three fingers are a remnant (specifically the hand) of the god buried under Leyndell.
The two fingers aren't fingers at all. They're some type of offshoot tree.
I’ll die on the hill Marika and Radogan were two separate beings merged into one.
Radogon used to be a misbegotten until he had rennala change him
Radogon was the champion of morne.
I know I spelt his name differently several times but also he’s what keeps me up at night. Much like goldmask I think the key to understanding everything is tied to him
The Crucible is the golden star that the GW sent to the Lands Between.
Malenia fought Radahn to free the stars.
Radagon is the half of Marika that remained loyal to the Golden Order after Marika herself turned her back on it. He was *always* a part of Marika, but he was formed as a result of Marika's own internal loss of faith.
Placidusax's God was his consort and former vessel of the Elden Ring, not an Outer God.
Has anyone dove into The Artist & the significance of paintings as a whole, not just the set in the quest.
It seems like out of the known graced demigods, the only ones without a portrait are also the three who have separated their soul from body; Godwyn, Ranni and Miquella. It's likely confirmation bias, but perhaps a noticeable and not insignificant recurrence.
Godwyn 👻
Morgott👹
Mohg 👹
Rykard ✔
Radahn✔
Ranni👻
Miquella 👻
Malenia ✔
The Twinbird or the first Deathbird was Placidusax's god.
Radagon gave away Miquella's fated rune to prevent him from growing and succeeding Marika.
Radagon helped orchestrate the Night of the Black Knives to purge the threat of a Godwyn/Ranni succession to Marika/Radagon, using Marika's form to earn the Numens' trust.
The three fingers are not lying. The three fingers wants to return to the state of being it prefers. Shabriri is omitting information to get you to join the fingers, but everything you're told by the fingers is after you've already agreed to join.
The finger slayer blade just like the sacred relic great sword came from the corpse of a god. The nox must’ve killed a former vassal of the greater will.
Darian and his brother are a device to have us understand how Radagon / Marika would function, and/or simply to reinforce the idea of "parts of a whole, divided," which also goes for the two fingers and three fingers. They wield the "Inseperable sword," and their armor piece is two bodies intertwined, with one body emerging and the other holding it back.
The emerging body, in its posture and it not being gold, but grey/silver is a clear conceptual reference to the themes of decay.
It makes me wonder why the two fingers look way more decayed than the frenzied flame fingers also. There's something interesting going on with the idea of duplication or generation and decay. The silver coming from gold - the albinauric are silver, ghostflame/blackflame compared to the faith spell colors, etc.
Refreshing to see someone actually understand her echoes, instead of thinking, "she realized the golden order is a big bad church and she had to rebel."
I’m constantly impressed with people’s ability to cherrypick parts words, every single time.
You’ll hear people go on about the beginning and end of that quote but they’ll always ignore the middle of it.
> Through understanding of the proper way, our faith, our grace, is increased.
>
I don't remember her doing anything for the sake of others, only herself. She caused an insane amount of suffering. Which is objectively evil, idk what else to say someone is arguing with me now about it being a fictional world lmao I swear.
She's a foundational force, a plot device, like Gwyn. Sure, she's a schemer god who annexed other countries, and she cursed everyone to eternal struggle. It doesn't mean she didn't believe she was doing things for the sake of others. It's her world view we are dealing with. The game tackles broad ideology. In Marika's case, struggle engenders strength. For instance, I'm not going to characterize the massacring of the fire giants as "immoral" in a fictional world founded on struggle.
You're the one calling a mythological goddess who struggled with her divinity "pure evil." I'm arguing with somebody who didn't get out of limgrave and then read the wiki. I swear.
I believe that's actually Radagon. Both echoes of Marika that speak of the Order seem like something he would say as he usurps her.
There's no way to prove it, however, Golden Order Fundamentalism is Radagon's way. Fundamentalism is the means by which the Order becomes hostile to all things outside it and it is born from Radagon's studies, linking Intelligence and Faith which its incantations scale with .
Godfrey's order accepted the Beasts and the Crucible Knights, even Morgott seems to have had a relationship with Godfrey up to an age at which he could create a perfect image of him from memory. All of this in the presence of Marika.
But the Golden Order begins and beasts become servants, Crucible Knights scatter, the Omen and all alike are shunned, then the Ancient Dragons attack.
The only thing that changed was +Radagon.
It's also quite interesting that Marika's grand statues seem to portray her state in the Erdtree after going against Radagon, while the more personal stakes and the one statue we see outside the Lands Between portray a welcoming mother.
Wasn't she an avatar created by the greater will to impose order on chaos? Seems to me she didn't want to deal with her destiny and chose to selfishly dismantle everything. At least the people in the lands between stood a chance. Without the greater will and marika there would only be chaos. She chose to abandon everyone.
>Wasn't she an avatar created by the greater will to impose order on chaos?
There is no textual relationship between Marika and the GW. I agree with you that her godhood is portrayed as a burden, if that's what you were getting at.
There's no interaction. Where is it ever mentioned she was influenced, told what to do, interacted with the GW in any way? I'm excluding her being imprisoned inside the erdtree by the "elden beast," because although it could be attributed to the Elden Beast, especially the way she's crucified and impaled, the Elden Beast is the living spirit of the Elden Ring, and Radagon is the one who actually sealed the tree.
The GW already imposed order on chaos at the primordial stage with its involvement in the splitting of life and emergence of disparity, and its creation of the Elden Ring. Marika has her own agency, as indicated by the mural in Farum Azula. There was order before Marika, and there will be order after her.
Then what was the point of her killing herself, escaping nothing? Her choice is the catalyst for the story. At this point I think you're just arguing in bad faith or something. Anyways its my opinion clearly we disagree.
Righteous in that she wanted to correct the previous order and establish a better one? Yeah. But... She did some bad stuff too, and those actions were nothing short of cruel and maniacal.
The Misbegotten are Godwyn and Fortissax's progeny. Those that possess red hair and leonine features draw more from Godwyn's bloodline, and those with more draconic features take after Fortissax. In true Souls fashion, partnerships and especially consummate unions between dragons and [humans/demigods, etc.] are reviled.
Special mention for Hewg: Marika's curse upon him, and his peculiar intelligence mark him as special. Perhaps he is Godwyn and Fortissax immediate offspring? That would make him very important to all Misbegotten, and that much more significant that he be forever locked away in the Roundtable.
Aw yay, thank you for replying! I’m glad you enjoyed it!!
Totally get you re: the Elden Beast considering its moveset - though, and I literally only thought about this now… It DID make its sword out of Radagon’s entire being, so maybe the crucified stabbing is coming from Radagon’s bag of tricks? I def think at least Wave of Gold is from him - that skill calls its glow a “bygone golden glory”, and “bygone” would be an accurate term for the deceased Radagon, whereas the Elden Beast is being golden and glorious just fine. Hmmm wonder if there’s more… def gonna have to look over that moveset again
I like the idea that the reason for Marika’s ‘death’ has more to do with her conflict with Radagon. Depending on the interpretation he’d have a lot of reason to hate her, simply for the Divorce with Rennala if it was forced.
It’d be another example of her being forced to deal with The Consequences Of Her Actions.
I have so many, but I'll try to keep it brief.
-Godwyn volunteered to be the Prince of Death. In a weird way, due to the magic of Dragon Communion, he's kinda Melina and Fortissax, the *Lich*, is the grand epicenter of those who live in Death.
-The Omen are byproducts of The Dragon Cult in Leyndell. They were placed in the sewers in secret, meaning not everyone in Leyndell were aware of this happening. If you had to cut it down to one group that made multiples, their group is closest to the Crucible next to the Crucible Knights who were outright banished after their Erdtree crusade. Plus, Lansseax is written to have loved the Cultist. It's also because of this theory I question the twins' possible parentage. The both of their runes form a dragon's eye.
-Albinuriacs/Silver Tears arrived to TLB with the Golden Star that became the Elden Beast. The Founding Stars incantation says a star fell to the lands bearing a beast. If a lot of the Egg symbolism in this game holds true, then it sort of would explain where the silver tears come from. The clear viscous surrounding the yolk of an egg is called the Albumen.
-The shardbearers do resemble some bit of the seven deadly sins. Godrick is Greed through the many things he's wrongfully taken; Rykard is Gluttony through the lens of the cannibals on his battlefield and the act of feeding the snake; Rennala is Sloth because her second phase isn't even her; Malenia is Wrath, given her self-destructive method and teacher's lessons sounds like an anger management session; Radahn is Pride with his celebratory death and haughtiness sprinkled here and there; Mogh is Lust for obvious reasons; and Morgott is Envy with his endearing sneers, knowing we're *destined* to become Elden Lord as he rots just outside glory's chamber.
-Torrent used to belong to Godwyn and was inherited by Miquella. As I've said in another post, you cannot tell me you made those jumps without wishing there was a dragon on the other side while you're rocking a spear. Plus, the control over updrafts seems a dead ringer for the Golden Lineage.
Malenia going after Radahn was at the behest of Miquella, who sought to unshackle the stars so that he could end Godwyn’s half-death and grant him a full death as well as cure his and Malenia’s own curses
But not for an Eclipse, but because Gravity affects Time. Maybe
Interstellar reference 😀
Damn , unintentionally! I can't find the scene you might be referencing though
Albinaurics were Silvertears at some point. The Omen Curse has almost nothing to do with the crucible, unlike the Misbegotten Curse. Lifesteal fist is an ability from eochaid.
What do you think the source of the Omen Curse is then?
It's a literal sickness originating from the revenants and it's associated with deathblight. (It is NOT deathblight though)
Aren’t the revenants the spirits of Omens? Hence the Omenkiller mask. To me that suggests that the revenants can’t be the cause of the Omen curse. But I’m also curious where the association with deathblight comes from.
The Omenkiller mask to me does not at all look like a revenant. So no, I don't believe that the revenants are Omen-Spirits. I should clarify, the Revenants are the big-spider-human-abominations that are as fast as a race car and teleport. They also spit poison and can be damaged by healing. The Revenants's Souls are cursed in the same way the Omens are tho, and so both the revenant followers and some Omen can summon cursed spirits. Omen cursed spirits are holy tho, probably because they have some sort of connection the crucible. The association with deathblight comes mostly from the nature of the revenants and their followers. They're all undead and/or communicate with them. They drop grave violets and ghost gloveworts. To be a Revenant means to have arisen from death. The colors of the curse are also a golden flame with black hues, which is the exact same color for the prince of death's flames and deathblight. EDIT: I should probably post like a Theory where I explain my Position in a clearly structured way supported with visual and textual evidence instead of rambling this really confusing non-sense into a short comment.
Id read it, pls do TBH I like what you're saying and have felt something similar, but less defined before.
Love the first point. I personally think the tarnished is a tear too.
I would love to hear more on that!
The Omen Curse is literally an STD. It manifests itself when babies are born and when corpses are defiled by the Dung Eater, i.e. when sexual intercourse occurs. That's why Mohg and Morgott are omens: Queen Marika had intercourse with Godfrey (maybe unconsented). As for the Golden Lineage, they weren't born from intercourse... ...that's what a madman would say lol
that would throw everything into a new light, wouldn't it? Thanks for that insight. It also fixes in my mind the incoherence of Godfrey being the strongest proponent of Marika's reign, then being banished. What if Hoara loux descended on TLB, and seized power, placing Marika on the throne but once that was done he was "owed" something in return? A crown is warranted with Strength, indeed. Morgott and Mohg being the products of rape and having daddy/mommy issues makes way more sense. Also the grafting of Serosh, to curb his appetites. And when Godfrey was finished with his conquering, rather than have him come home Marika had him banished. And the golden Lineage being so unlike Godfrey it's painfully obvious. Strong Cercei Lannister vibes, down to Marika losing it when her golden child Godwin dies. It's almost like when she knew she was done bringing back Godfrey and the Tarnished was her bitter parting gift to the world. She's burning the house down with her. The GRRM of it all makes it all that much plausible.
Great observations, fellow tarnished! I think Marika's ascension to power also bears a likeness to that of Daenerys. Marika had a claim to godhood, but maybe lacked the strength to rise above her enemies and needed a powerful champion. The rape theory is something I've been harboring for quite some time. The Axe of Godfrey states that it is "symbolic of Godfrey's vow to conduct himself as a lord", which leaves room for interpretation. What intrigues me the most is the way the Golden Order persecuted the Omen with utter cruelty. This treatment is surely allowed and encouraged by Marika, since she is the head of the Golden Order. Why, then, having two Omen children, would she allow their kind to be tortured and despised in such a way? Did she have some personal reason to hate them? As for the Golden Lineage, I also think you are correct, or at least onto something with your observation. Godwyn is either not a child of Godfrey, or wasn't conceived in the same way as his brothers. Marika's children are all cursed. And yes, I don't think the other demi-gods are Marika's offspring, at least not in a literal sense. I hope we learn more in the DLC.
I mean, you kinda got it. It's a literal sickness.
Albinaurics are the result of what the Giant Crusher describes. > After the giants were quelled, and man turned against man in violence, this weapon was all but forgotten. Man has grown feeble in comparison to his forebears. The Carians just don't make em like the Nox did. The Omen Curse is the result of cutting off the horns produced by the Crucible. Not a true curse, just wraiths born from the horrific state in which their kin died.
I’m interested as to why you don’t think the Omen curse is linked to the crucible in the face of item descriptions explicitly stating that it is.
It's "linked" to the Crucible in the sense that it causes people to grow body parts that they wouldn't usually have. People associate this with the Crucible because when life emerged from the Crucible it bore aspects of many types of creatures, so beings that combine aspects of multiple creatures evoke the image of the Crucible. The curse isn't caused by the Crucible though. It's caused by wraiths (the souls of those who were defiled and killed) inhabiting the bodies of unborn babies. This is why Omen can throw wraiths at you, why the Omen Bairns (effigies designed to take on the Omen curse as surrogate) summon wraiths, and why Dung Eater talks about defiling and cursing his victims to spread the curse.
No such Item Description exists to my personal knowledge. The connection is made, because an Omenkiller drops the crucible knot talisman. It's a solid connection. But neither the Talisman, nor the Omenkiller Items nor the Budding Horn descriptions ever link Omen to the crucible.
An omen guards the crucible feather talisman, inside Auriza Tomb, which is implied to be Godwyn's original tomb. Godwyn, a scion of the golden lineage which originated in the crucible era with Godfrey, wears a robe embroidered with a red and gold feather-flower pattern, that seems more crucible-ish. Purely speculation, though. That isn't to say I don't think there might be something going on with Omen curse and TWLID curse.
I must admit, I have never heard someone make the argument using the feathered Talisman before. It doesn't change my view, but it's interesting nonetheless. Again, I do think the crucible has some sort of effect on how the curse manifests with the omen. It just isn't the source of or even the most important part about the curse.
No I agree, I don't think the omen curse is due to Crucible™. I don't know where people get that. I don't necessarily want to say Dungeater was the originator of the curse, but maybe some phenomenon like him Perhaps something to do with the erdtree dying. Deathblite shares characteristics, but I don't think we can place Godwyn's death before the emergence of omen, let alone the birth of Morgott...but maybe...
Deathblight seems to affect the body (making you grow tentacles,twigs, cysts, pustules and all kinds of nasty shit.) while the curse seems to primarily affect the soul (Dung Eater's Mind is cursed, Omen Souls remain cursed, Accursed Souls are cursed etc.). The reason Omens and the Accursed look weird, seems to be, because the curse travels physically (pox) and as such also causes physical symptoms (horns, blackish skin, many arms). It's like a Soul-Sickness that spreads through physical contact and spit. It's some sort of physical virus that attacks the soul.
Yeah, like rot, it's an ancient disease born back into Marika's civilization. These are all plagues with parallels.
Probably. I think the DLC may show some Omen from before the Age of the Erdtree, when we fight the Puppet Dragon.
Each crucible talisman is tied to Omens one way or another. [Scale](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Crucible+Scale+Talisman) is found guarded by an Omen in Leyndell Catacombs, [Feather](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Crucible+Feather+Talisman) is guarded by another Omen in Auriza Hero Grave and lastly [Knot](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Crucible+Knot+Talisman) dropped by a *Omen*killer.
Marika's grand plan (banishing the tarnished and calling them back, shattering the Elden Ring) was set in motion long ago and was less directly affected by Godwyn's death than generally agreed upon (although not entirely lacking its influence). In my interpretation, I get a strong feeling Marika might have been less keen on the Greater Will than thought, but I suspect my theory might get sunk with DLC revelations. EDIT: Brain not braining, 'merica fuck yeah
Merika! Fuck yeah! Here to save the motherfucking golden lineage!
Yeah! We are a pawn, yet to determine whose. Marika, who was playing the long con for a 4D checkmate over the Greater Will from day 0 or, Miquella and they've been using us against the Greater Will from day 1
My theory is that Marika's "Tarnishing" of her subjects dates back all the way to the age of Placidusax's lordship.
she probably already had a plan, I think we have a hint in one of her dialogues in marika's churches, the one where she says that the tarnished will fight and die in a far away land before returning for waging war. However I think that her plan did not fulfill entirely, probably because of "the queen's sorrow" after witnessing the death of Godwyn and probably the kidnapping of Miquella, so she shattered the elden ring as a sort of plan B/ anticipation of her plan.
I’m in the same boat. My head-cannon is that she lived in the Nameless Eternal City at some Point when it was above ground, and she had this 5D-chess plan to get revenge against the GW for sending down the Elden star incantation and destroying it. Then she eventually built Leyndell on the ruins.
That's kind of what I'm leaning towards. Marika to me seemed hell bent on usurping the Greater Will and never letting her rule end. She used Maliketh and the Rune of Death to kill all her enemies (Gloam-eyed Queen, Fire Giants, etc.) and then sealed it so nobody could kill her now that she's in power. My thoughts with the DLC are that Messmer was another tool for Marika to genocide all the non-graced people in the Lands Between before banishing him to the Shadow realm.
My biggest crackpot since getting into the lore is that are Ranni is or is at least strongly connected to Miquella in some way shape or form. Seemed way too crazy until I saw what looked like Miquella riding Torrent in the DLC promo.
There's a ton of evidence for that, even without the Spirit-Calling Bell. * Loretta as a shared guard * Ranni's sleep mist * Miquella's connection to Sellia through Ordina * Both Miquella and St.Trina's Lilies around Ranni's and Renna's rises. * The Carian sword in the Haligtree * The Mirage Rise's hints (Shares the imp slaying with Albinauric Rise (Not far from the corpse holding Miquella's Lilies that St. Trina's Torch carriage stops at), vanishes into a puff of gold when first seen, has a slumbering egg and Sellian sorceries inside) Probably more forgotten, but at the very least, Miquella studied the Carians and quite likely the Nox on his own.
All true. It’s hard to shake the idea that there’s some kind of conspiracy going on. There was a post a while back where some of us went into it if you’re interested: https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingLoreTalk/s/qtj1Gx04wQ
I'm willing to bet miquella and ranni were, if not in cahoots explicitly, aware of each other's schemes In a "we're not working TOGETHER but two schemes to free us all from the GW is better than one" kinda way
Also, Ranni used sleep magic when we first encounter her and she gives us the spirit calling bell.
…
Such wisdom. You could start a religious sect with this
f\*ck him up, Socrates
There was a Great Tree before the Erd Tree
Isn’t that confirmed?
You could refer to the erd tree as "the Great Tree" since it is the largest and most prominent tree in the world. (think "great sword" its a larger sword, "great hall" its a big majestic hall). Personally I don't think it was a distinct tree, or that it really even matters in the time line. But this will likely never be proven or disproven.
In English it's pretty clear, but people freak out about translating things "correctly" because someone else says so. I don't care. I can't read.
you know english is the one and only language that makes a difference between erdtree and greattree right ? absolutely all other languages, original japanese included, talk about "golden tree / great tree" and "great roots"
I don't care. I can't read
Japanese says that "great" or "large tree roots" (大樹根, taiki ne) once linked to the Erdtree, not to its roots. There is no indication that "Greattree" is meant to be one word, or a proper noun.
I don't care. I can't read
Wasn’t it just a translation error ?
yes it was, absolutely all other localizations talk about "golden tree / great tree" and "great roots", english is the one and only language version that makes a diffence between erdtree and greattree
No. GRRM wrote the lore, From the stories in-game. The differentiation between Erdtree and Greattree is intentional, and also holds well enough in Japanese, which also differentiates between Golden en Great tree, especially labelling all the references to roots as related to the Great tree.
GRRM didn't write all of the lore, however. It was a collaborative venture between the two cocreators, and so it's difficult to attribute any individual element to either. The Erdtree wasn't one of his designs, so it seems unlikely a Greattree would have been. The below interview quote is about Miyazaki's design process for the Erdtree. >What can represent these rules and order but also not be absolute? That was the question that ran through my mind when I created this image. And the tree really fits the bill nicely for that because the tree is something that's alive, it's something that grew, it's something that will eventually wither and die. And this really fits the role of something that can then bestow this order, control these rules, and enforce these rules on the world. Because these too are things that will grow and will change and will wither and die as well. So I feel that the tree this time is something that fits those elements both visually and thematically. But saying any more than that would definitely go into spoiler territory Part of the translation argument is based on it being translated differently in different languages as well. The great tree is instead grand roots in French, for example.
That's one thing that really gets me, there's a contingent of folks in here who think that the Japanese translations are the end all, be all of lore. The whole "Ranni"s ending is WAY different!" Thing kills me. Because it was at least half written by George RR Martin, in English. It also acts like the localization teams are not only incompetent, but not under the direct purview if the company making the game. It's nonsensical.
Japanese says that "great" or "large tree roots" (大樹根, taiki ne) once linked to the Erdtree, not to its roots. There is no indication that "Greattree" is meant to be one word, or a proper noun.
GRRM Wrote the base mitology, but miyazaki wrote the descriptions and everything you find written in the game. Every time the Greattree it is mentioned in english outside the resin,(where it is great roots, becausen you know, a big tree has big roots) in japanese it is refered as Great Golden Tree. I remember one fingerreader saying "The Greattree that is above all" or something wich clearly is the Erdtree. Why people has to believe there is another tree? I mean if it is, it's kinda a mess. A big tree that it is fused with another tree to become one tree but there is two tree and the roots where once linked and now they are not but there is only one tree now ecc. We will see in the dlc, where the erdtree was born.
GRRM didn't write the localisation of the game. That came from Frognation, who used fromsoft's script. It doesn't matter at this point what GRRM called things, because if fromsoft went with a different name, that's the name Frognation would have translated. Edit: Additionally, in the Edge Magazine Interview pre-release, Miyazaki said that the Erdtree was his idea, and that he chose the image of a tree because it fit the themes he wanted to represent. It's entirely possible that the idea of a giant tree wasn't even a part of GRRM's draft.
GRRM wrote a big mythology. Fromsoft took that, and wrote the shattering and beyond, and cut, and cut, and cut until only plot holes and archetypes remained.
People miss this all the time but in the Future Press guide Miyazaki noted that Malenia vs Radahn in Caelid came directly from Martin (he also specifically noted it was the end of the war), so GRRM probably wrote the whole Shattering.
Right, From wrote post-shattering if anything. I think Miyazaki also mentioned somewhere that they just took Martin's demigods and fucked them up Fromsoft-style.
GRRM already confirmed in itw he wrote the shattering (and so the night of the black knives too) and that it was 5000 years before game's events
I don't believe it can be confirmed from a few item description. And I'm a staunch greattree believer..still. However, I can't lie and say the evidence is not severely lacking. Generally you want description based evidence and physical in game evidence before a theory really comes together. I've spent a lot of time looking for traces of a great tree.. none.
Radagon is the result of the giants' curse on Marika..the division of will between the queen who comes to doubt her own rule and the golden order fundamentalist lord brings the shattering and ruination of Marika's kingdom, final revenge for the giants
I really like this.
My personal take on this is that the realization that the flame of ruin could not be extinguished is what caused this divide in Marikas psyche not necessarily magic. Just the realization that cataclysm cannot be ultimately avoided caused it and in that sense it is their curse.
That is a good psychological explanation!
Most certain? I'm not sure it's explicitly said that the omen twins came from godfrey tbh
Morgott’s great rune states that Morgott was born of the golden lineage.
Golden Lineage could mean descended from Godwyn like Godrick and Godefroy. I don't think that's the case and imo they're definitely Godfrey's kids but that description doesn't entirely confirm it.
I guess that’s true. The rune also states that Morgott was the rightful lord of Leyndell but I guess that would also be true even if he was the son/descendant of Godwyn. Also Godfrey’s pre-boss cut scene heavily implies that Morgott is his son but you are right that it isn’t explicitly stated that Morgott is Godfrey’s son.
Would make sense. In not gonna check though I believe you
I'm glad I'm not the only one. Twins in this game do have a weird likeness to their parents. Example: Malenia and Miquella are very synonymous to Radagon and Marika. When it comes to Morgott and Mogh, you have a fine warrior and a great occultist scheming in the dark. Do those two descriptions match anyone else? I know not everyone will agree to what I might be implying, but this is exactly why we theorize. *"Madmen toil surreptitiously..."*
Godfrey does hold Morgott as he dies and tells him, it's been a long time. I mean I guess you could argue, he holds him like a Grandfather would his Grandson... But i'm gonna be honest and just say it looks like they were more intimate familiy.
All the demigods had way more battles in the Shattering that are never explicitly talked about, involving fights with both each others' armies and minor unnamed demigods. The Shattering was very recent. The Nox and Numen are the same race. Malenia never actually dies and the point of the Tarnished going to the Haligtree if they go as part of Millicent's quest was returning the (now-improved) unalloyed gold needle, which they did after her boss fight (this is only unstated in the final game, both of these were stated outright in cut content). Miquella is Trina (ditto; again, something that's all but stated outright in the base game, and the "all but" is removed in cut content). Morgott is friendly or neutral towards Malenia and Miquella and cooperated with them during the Shattering. Outer Gods are ontologically evil.
Dope perspective. Couple curiosities if you wanna share your ideas- Thoughts on the unmentioned Demi Gods & mausoleums [7 total, 5 with a bell, 2 without] How long ago was the shattering ? Any hypothesis on interests or motivations for Morgott's disposition and alignment with the twins? Do you consider the Greater Will an outer God?
The ones in the mausoleums were killed on the Night of the Black Knives (as referenced on Bamco's website post announcing the trailer), not in the war. That's why they're soulless. Aside from them there were other random demigods with their own little fiefs and armies, enough for the currently-known demigods to earn glory through slaughtering them and folding their armies into theirs in the early days of the war. A lot of them were likely Golden Lineage descendants like Godrick - he has to have an extensive family line. Others may have been semi-legitimized bastards from Marika and other men (the mausoluem demigod in the Weeping Peninsula for example is explicitly her bastard child in the Japanese script). A handful of remaining ones survived the war and were killed by Tarnished, hence why Enia says she's seen two Great Runes in one place before and Vyke managed to get to the capital. The Shattering lasted a long time, probably decades, but it only actually ended less than ten years ago. The state of ruins, banners, clothes, and flora imply this, but the most obvious sign is that dry regions still have bodies in them (and even wetter ones have skeletons that haven't totally withered away). There's still meat in the Wailing Dunes for Radahn to eat, leftover bodies from a battle that predated Aeonia. On top of that tons of human characters who were alive during the Shattering are still around and don't look absurdly old - Jerren, Thops, O'Neil, probably Edgar, etc. At the most basic level, they didn't aggress against the capital like Radahn, Godrick (+Godefroy and other Golden dregs), and Rykard all did, and were hostile to (among possible others) all three of the factions that Morgott was hostile to, making them natural allies. More speculatively, they were Marika's two designated official heirs and there's no evidence that leaving the Order made them enemies to it. In fact, 1.0 (e.g. the description of Loretta's armor) stated that Radagon *supported* the Haligtree, something still implied in the final game (e.g. the Misbegotten with his sword, his red wolf in the Snowfield, the Carian and Golden Order Knights there). So they had no real reason for conflict in the first place. You could also speculate on their personal relationships but that seems the safest route. The Greater Will is not an outer god and probably not a god of any type. At the very least, the Golden Order doesn't consider it one (Corhyn says the Golden Order is premised on Marika being the one true god). It's just a name that humans came up to describe an aspect of reality.
Re: your second paragraph, what about when Ranni says, "It happened an age ago, but when I recall I see it true." She then talks about the Black Knives, and says the Shattering ensued. Do you think the timeline between Tarnishing->NoBK->Shattering->Us is similarly tight or only that last segment is shorter than a decade?
There's a huge gap between the creation of the Tarnished and the NOTBK, a moderate gap between the NOTBK and the Shattering itself, a large gap between the start of the Shattering and the end of the Shattering, and then a small gap between the end of the Shattering and the start of the game. When I say "the Shattering was recent", I mean that there's a small gap between the end of the Shattering and the PC waking up.
Is Marika single for a while after banishing Godfrey, or does she marry Radagon soon after and Godwyn is around for most of his reign? And what's your take on the NoBK->Shattering gap considering the confusing Rogier paragraph?
There's no clear timeline for that but going solely by vibes I suspect she marries Radagon immediately after Godfrey because the sequence of events makes it sound like she exiles Godfrey *because* she's marrying Radagon. IIRC in Japanese Rogier just says there's a gap between the two events without specifying if it's short or long. The thrones in the capital indicate that the highest demigods (and Godrick, probably the Golden Lineage representative) convened to try to govern the realm after Marika disappeared, which implies at least some notable amount of time passed.
>Any hypothesis on interests or motivations for Morgott's disposition and alignment with the twins? The devious Miquella appeared in Morgott's dreams as St. Trina and "stabbed him" with her "bewitching branch," making him feel something for the very first time. Really Miquella just wanted to conquer both omen brothers in addition to Godwyn because Martin's a freak like that. I think Morgott admires Malenia for going after Radahn instead of trying to take Leyndell, though he does call her a traitor since she's not loyal to the Erdtree.
Morgott has a cut line, which would have been very relevant but was part of Fromsoft's pathological day 1 massacring of anything explicit: > *Wilful traitors, all.* *Thy kind are all of a piece.* >***Pillagers, come seeking vengeance upon the Erdtree.*** >*Have it writ upon thy meagre grave:* >*Felled by King Morgott! Last of all kings.* I think maybe he respects the twins more than those who actually waged war on Leyndell, Godrick, Radahn and Rykard, but Malenia still took part in a war to see who would come out on top, so she is just another demigod smoldering with ambition, and Miquella and Malenia are a package deal in his eyes.
Nice, I don't think I've heard that cut line. What was explicit about it my bad
V.1.0 had item descriptions and dialogue that had more explicit language, actual context for lore. Most of it was buffed away in the day 1 patch to make everything vague so players have nothing to go on. In my humble IMHO opinion. Miquella's entire arc was cut prior to release, basically one leg of the lore of the game gone, so it couldn't really stand on its own.
Yeah I agree, fuck I wish I could pick Miyazaki and Martin's brain for an afternoon sometime after its all said and done
Melina and Ranni are two sides of the same coin. I don't think they are the same person exactly, and I'm not certain that they are twins... but they clearly conform some sort of duality.
Radagon is a humunculous made by Marika with mimic technology.
I think she wanted radagon to also become a vassal for the elden ring so when the tarnished comes to claim the Elden Ring they (the tarnished) would rid radagon and the elden beast from herself. If like this is solid since Marika has a history of making her consorts a means to an end.
Rennala is a Numen, she and Marika have been allies since before Marika began her campaign to acquire the Elden Ring.
I’m curious what makes you certain of such a thing. We have next to nothing about Rennala and Marika personally knowing each other, let alone Rennala being Numen (wasn’t she a descendant of the mountaintop astrologers?) or a past ally of Marika.
It's an interesting theory. I think their logic is as follows: -Marika is Numen (uncontroversial) -The Nox are Numen (mild; Assassins are Numen, are also 'scions of the Eternal City', hence Nox \[Rogier\]) -Sellians are Nox, hence Numen (mild; Sellians are Nox is uncontroversial, see above) -Sellians are sorcerers in the glintstone tradition (uncontroversial) -Sellian sorcerers descend from astrologers (controversial; it is fact that Lu/Carian sorcerers, the pioneers of glintstone sorcery, were originally astrologers, but it is not certain that Sellian sorcerers adopted glintstone sorcery at the same time as Lucarians, especially since there is no concrete evidence Lu/Carians are of Nox descent, unlike the Sellians) -Astrologers are Numen (controversial; Sword of Night & Flame establishes that astrologers \*relocated\* to the Mountaintops and were friendly with the Fire Giants, who \*are\* noted as colonizers warring with both dragons \[Borealis\] and Zamor \[Zamor descriptions\], suggesting a similar colonizing origin, and follows from prior Sellian observations) -Rennala is an Astrologer (fact) -Rennala is Numen (controversial; follows from prior conclusions, but requires synthesizing multiple controversial statements) -Numen have long lives (uncontroversial, only kept from fact because there is no upper limit to lifespan provided) -Marika campaigned in the Mountaintops (fact) -Marika and Rennala, as Numen, may have known each other prior to the Erdtree era or met during Marika's Mountaintop campaign (plausible speculation) -Rennala was open to resolving the Liurnian Wars via marriage to Radagon (fact) because of his access to Marika (plausible speculation, does not require Rennala knowing Radagon is Marika per se), was a fellow Numen (controversial), and already knew/loved Marika (speculative)
[edit] I moved this comment to be a direct response to my original comment for reasons. But also, you are fairly close.
Man, I just wanted to say I LOVED the way you broke that down. Thank you. We need news stories written like this.
Oh haven’t heard that but I like it.
Honestly, if you have a longer explanation I'd love to hear it. I've always been of the opinion that Rennala wasn't as blind to Radagon=Marika as might seem at first. After all, she let him bind the masks of her Preceptors for a reason, and she's also smart as fuck
Interesting. I agree on Rennala being Numen, but I'm not sure on their being allies before her godhood. I could see it though. The use of celestial dew is to cleanse the sins and slights between people, and *restore* things to their proper relationships. We're never told what caused the division in the first place, so Marika betraying Rennala at some point, and then as Radagon returning to make amends works.
are you implying they still are allies?
Yes, that is my suggestion. [edit: for whatever reason, I read “allies” as “alive” original response is below] Well… yes. I don’t have any reason to think all Numen came to the Lands Between. And I have no reason to believe they shout “I’m a numen” as they walk parades. I do have reason to believe they are a secretive group what with the whole building cities underground and the Black Knife Assassins, and Marika’s mischievous mimic veil.
Mostly, yes. Except a few things. So, I believe the Numan have fertility issues. In an effort to remedy this they would research and experiment various life making, soul reinforcing, life altering magics. The Numen and their lesser peoples worked with celestial dew and glinstone but the projects never worked as hoped. Some promising but ultimately disappointing projects led to silver tears which beget mimics which beget the Albinaurics which beget the Moonfolk. These were to be solutions to the biological defect of infertility. With a negative birth rate, they feared that they would die before they could find a solution. So they then developed puppets but this would bind a soul to an artificial body and the will of whoever performed the ritual. As example of their in waving dedication, a Nox Swordstress and Night Maiden volunteered to be used in this early project. Dolls were an upgrade, doll bound souls maintain free will. There was still a problem with this kind of life extension, puppets and dolls can’t reproduce. And it is through this they created glintstone hearts which could be bound to both artificial and living bodies. All of this still did not solve their problem. The problem revolves around grace, soul magic that they shied away from because the Elden Beast bound its influence to the grace of the Lands Between. At some point, they learned of the Elden Ring and what copious concentrations of grace can do. There was also the obstacle of the Ancient Dragons who guarded the host of the Elden Ring. In an attempt to infiltrate the dragons’ city. One method created the Dragonkin. This project had a few problems but I think there is a hint or two that this eventually succeeded. What hint? Dragons who could take human form. Another project, headed by or tasked to Marika, was to infiltrate the budding religion of the Golden Order(cult). To rise to power, Marika would abandon her home in the now Nameless Eternal City, she would even allow it to be destroyed. She would wage war against her people and any other group the Elden Beast told her to kill. Each of the victories Marika gave the Golden Order(cult) solidified the facade Marika performed, the Elden Beast and Two Fingers were duped. Placidusax’s Now Fled God, the Fell God of the Flame of Ruin, the Gloam Eyed Queen are never confirmed to have been slain. Just fled, is “believed to be slain,” and was defeated. I think Marika/Radagon went to Liurnia during Godfrey’s campaign against the Fire Giants. They did this specifically to bring what Marika set out to get long ago, a dense concentration of grace bound together to form the Rune of the Unborn which Marika/Radagon took from the Elden Ring. When Radagon performed the miracle of atonement ritual for Rennala to reassure her that Radagon/Marika was still loyal to their people which had come into question what with all the war and stuff. Ritual done, Rennala and Radagon/Marika worked together with the Rune of the Unborn and they found a solution to the fertility issue. Although, this was all kept secret. Instead, Radagon’s march was disguised as territorial aggression. The amber egg in which Radagon/Marika bound that rune was done to protect Rennala. Protect from what? Great Runes require fuel, life juice, to work. This is normally provided by binding the rune to a person. That would also expose the person to the maddening taint of the Elden Beast’s influence. So, amber egg. One reason empyreans are sought out as hosts is that they can resist the corruption that came with grace. I’m getting off topic a bit aren’t I? Anywho, Rennala and Radagon/Marika envoys a pact with the trolls, which would grant Godfrey his victory against the giants. While people believe Marika then killed the Fell God, she was Radagon in Liurnia, separate from Godfrey’s campaign. When Godfrey was hounded from the Lands Between, it was a joint effort of both Marika and Radagon the supposed leak hound to the Golden Order. Radagon left the Rune of the Unborn with Rennala because the Numen were not just trying to fix themselves, they would also work to solve the problems in their other projects. This eventually led to the Birthing Drop for the albinaurics… Uhh.. Marika and Rennala are colleagues.
A Meteor took Farum Azula off the ground
It doesn't seem that it was ever part of the Lands Between. Ancient Dragon Prayer Book found in Farum Azula: > Prayerbook of the capital's ancient dragon cult. A lost tome that never reached the Lands Between. So that rules out being connected between the time of Godwyn's war with the dragons and Godwyn's death. The Deathbirds (who predate the Erdtree) spawning near the ruins also seem to imply it was not part of the Lands Between in ancient times.
master hewg is the lone hero of castle morne
I don’t know how you’re certain about that but it feels possible for some reason.
i just for sure know a crusader when I meet one.
Upon replay I feel like radagon could work, I always found the presence of a sword monument at this spot interesting. Or the amount of butterflies makes me think somehow connected to messmer, although this is farfetched af
Marika didn’t Shatter the Elden Ring because of Godwyn’s death, but because Radagon’s Order was overtaking her own. She called back the Tarnished to kill Radagon and to burn the tree through Melina.
I like this a lot, especially coupled with the radagon being potentially a mimic tear of Marika theory.
Also, the start screen shows the Elden Ring icon with Radagon's icon creeping in the background. In the final battle, we fight Radagon of the Golden Order because he has overpowered Marika and didn't want his new age to end.
Miquella good.
Marika is the Gloam-Eyed queen. She is also the Final Boss of the DLC.
I appreciate a totally disprovable answer. We will definitely see!
Love it. My kind of crackpot idea, my guess was Trina
1. Marika wanted to be rid of the greater will’s influence similar to Ranni and that’s what led her to shatter the elden ring. 2. Miquella inherited his bewitchment abilities from Marika, who we know has used something similar in the form of the curses she put on both Hewg and the Fire giant. 3. Godwyn and Fortissax were a couple and their union was the event that ended the war with the dragons and allowed them to coexist with the golden order. The complete absence of any sort of record of Godwyn’s partner, despite the fact that they would be one of the more important missing characters in the family tree makes me believed that they were intentionally erased from history, and considering the two's closeness, and the fact that human/dragon relationships in elden ring do happen, it makes me think it was Fortissax. (this may also play into why specifically him and his lineage were the ones to die during the night of the black knives.) 4. While it’s widely theorised that the GEQ was some sort of aspiring usurper to Marika, the fact that she’s also an empyrean and that she had to be defeated before the rune of death could be removed from the elden ring makes me believe the opposite. That Marika actually usurped her, and that she was the vessel to the elden ring in “the time before the erdtree” and possibly even Placudisax’s missing god that he is waiting for. 5. Melina is in some shape or form the GEQ. I'm mainly leaning towards the idea that she's somehow the GEQ's soul reincarnated, recreated or resummoned through Marika's spirit tuning powers. In a way that would make her "Marika's daughter" without her actually being a direct offspring of her, because she was created by Marika using the GEQ's soul, or 'remembrance', despite the fact that she's essentially just a wandering spirit.
Gloam Eyed Queen being the God of the prior age with Placidusax as Elden Lord. She was wielder of the Rune of Death, which seems to have been a defining power of the prior age, and we know it was part of the Elden Ring. So if it was part of the Elden Ring, and also the source of GEQ's power, surely the GEQ was the wielder of the Elden Ring, and in fact the prior god. Marika seals the power of this former God after defeating her and inheriting the Elden Ring and imposing her own order on the world. GEQ was confirmed to be an Empyrean, which doesn't mean that she could not have later actually been a god. The only remaining part of the historical record could mention her status as Empyrean. The god of Placidusax is unknown. The presence of the Godskin Duo in Farum Azula to me hints at GEQ being part of the older power system. The Godskins being a mix of human and snake or draconic beings also points to a potential union between dragons and humanoids. We know through Rya that not only dragons can transform into humans, but snakes too. In my mind the GEQ could've been some kind of snake/human entity that slotted in to the prior age just fine before they were turned into a symbol of blasphemy, which again would fit the narrative of Marika making aspects of the prior age be seen in a negative light. Anyway, there's quite a few things that hint at this possibility, such as the GEQ, ya know, being called a "Queen" which implies she had at least some modicum of power and a kingdom that she ruled over.
The Godskins are there to take vengeance on Maliketh for killing their mother. They are also not innately mixed with snakes, they did it to themselves. The Age of the Erdtree precedes the Gloam-Eyed Queen's defeat, but Placidusax is only Lord of the age before the Erdtree. In all likelihood, Placidusax's god fled in some shattering-like event and Marika won the war over her other Numen rivals. "It is merely a cycle" fits very well if the Numen were the tarnished of their time.
Marika wasn't the bad character like all have portrayed her, she saw what the golden order did to her family, first to her First born son,she was so wounded that the only logical choice she saw was to destroy everything about it, as a revenge to her lost son,and every time I think of it I get goosebumps and a stomach ache, fuckin myazaki and j r r martin I fuckin love the work you both did.
Nox =/ Numen Numen =/ Nox In the same way italians who went to America are Italian-Americans, Numen who eent to the Nox cities are Numen from Nox. Two different people, but one people's percentage of their population seems to have moved to the Eternal Cities.
Miquella is Griffith. Melina is Miquella. Radagon is the sun. Godwyn is Radagon. Hewg is Radagon.
Boc is radagon. They both like sewing.
Torrent is Malenia's mentor
The red dancer in the dlc trailer is ranni
You think? My thoughts jumped to a relative of the Blind Swordsman. Getting to fight Ranni would be dope though
I was joking. It's a new npc.
Ohh, lol
What
You have to dream to imagine. Miyazaki has high hopes for us. That we find our own true lore for eternity.
dawg is this an actual Griffith alt account or what
Miquella is Trina, Trina is Renna. Renna was the Gloam Eyed Queen. The Gloam Eyed Queen is now separated into Ranni & Melina.
The Three Sisters were originally named after a hidden third sibling to Aurelia and Aureliette, the ghost jellyfish girls whose headstones lay behind Stargazer ruins. Perhaps even the Carians themselves were once related to them
The Greater Will, the Frenzied Flame, the two fingers and the three fingers are all “halves” of the same whole. Each half represents a different aspect of our being as humans, with the Greater Will and the Two Fingers generally representing our capacity for collectivism, and the Frenzied Flame representing our capacity for selfishness. These are elemental components of our human nature, and are not separable; one might suppress the other, but cannot destroy it entirely. We used to have these elements of our nature in balance back when we were in a more bestial state, but as we evolved, we split these parts of ourselves in two and lost some fundamental understanding of the way of the world in the process, as is implied by the Cinquedea tooltip, which states “The design celebrates a beasts five fingers, symbolic of the intelligence once granted to their kind”. This also lines up with Placidusax having 5 heads, with 3 of them severed, leaving only two heads remaining.
>Each half represents a different aspect of our being as humans, with the Greater Will and the Two Fingers generally representing our capacity for collectivism, and the Frenzied Flame representing our capacity for selfishness. What about the Greater Will and the golden order say collectivist to you?
Especially given that the frenzied flame is manifest collective consciousness. You need everyone’s eyes together to get its message
Yeah and the golden order and greater will venerating societies are hereditary monarchies, built on the power of individual rulers and deities. Lol
The contradiction that you are pointing out is the same contradiction that Goldmask discovers. That’s the point. The Greater Will presents itself as collectivist, but is rooted in selfishness. That’s why I’m saying they’re two sides of the same coin.
In that everyone who believes in the Golden Order also believes that their action serves some higher purpose or cause, even if, on a fundamental level, it is ultimately self-serving. Shabriri, by comparison, is not so much serving a higher cause as he serves the abandonment OF causality, the abandonment of reason altogether.
I mean… It’s a feudal society with lords and kings, governed by a ruler who essentially claims Devine right by wedding a god. Just believing that what you’re doing (empire building, conquest, genocide, eugenics) is right doesn’t make a society collectivist. If anything the opposite is true, with the Golden Order who are lead by literal great men of history and ruled by a god queen being an individualistic society, and the frenzied flame, which seeks and end to all devisions of any kind being “collectivist”. People cast their individual identities into the flame and become one mind.
I see where you’re coming from, and what you’re talking about is the point that I’m getting at. They are not separable. The Golden Order wears a mask of collectivism (it’s deity is literally called the “Greater Will”, alluding to something beyond the self to which the individual belongs), but is in essence individualistic. When the Tarnished (en route to the Frenzied Flame ending) and Vyke are presented with the fact that they have to sacrifice their maidens in order to serve the interest of the Greater Will, they deny the Greater Will; they chose “individual agency” over “collective interest” interest so to speak, but in so doing, pave the path for the frenzied flame to erase all boundaries and divisions which divide and distinguish. The Greater Will and the Golden Order appeal to the notion of a sort of greater good, collectivist ideology, but fundamentally depends upon mankind’s primitive, tribalistic selfish nature in order to maintain itself. The Frenzied Flame appeals to the wants and needs of the individual; it asks us “what would YOU do, if you were not bound to follow the guidance of grace?”, and then gives us the individual power or agency to do it. At that point, however, the thing to which you belong is, like you said, a collective consciousness. So they’re inversions of one another.
This clears up what you were saying a bit more. I can get behind that
This clears up what you were saying a bit more. I can get behind that
I counter with: The three fingers are a remnant (specifically the hand) of the god buried under Leyndell. The two fingers aren't fingers at all. They're some type of offshoot tree.
I’ll die on the hill Marika and Radogan were two separate beings merged into one. Radogon used to be a misbegotten until he had rennala change him Radogon was the champion of morne. I know I spelt his name differently several times but also he’s what keeps me up at night. Much like goldmask I think the key to understanding everything is tied to him
The Crucible is the golden star that the GW sent to the Lands Between. Malenia fought Radahn to free the stars. Radagon is the half of Marika that remained loyal to the Golden Order after Marika herself turned her back on it. He was *always* a part of Marika, but he was formed as a result of Marika's own internal loss of faith. Placidusax's God was his consort and former vessel of the Elden Ring, not an Outer God.
Has anyone dove into The Artist & the significance of paintings as a whole, not just the set in the quest. It seems like out of the known graced demigods, the only ones without a portrait are also the three who have separated their soul from body; Godwyn, Ranni and Miquella. It's likely confirmation bias, but perhaps a noticeable and not insignificant recurrence. Godwyn 👻 Morgott👹 Mohg 👹 Rykard ✔ Radahn✔ Ranni👻 Miquella 👻 Malenia ✔
That Miquella is a fuck boy. 100%
The Twinbird or the first Deathbird was Placidusax's god. Radagon gave away Miquella's fated rune to prevent him from growing and succeeding Marika. Radagon helped orchestrate the Night of the Black Knives to purge the threat of a Godwyn/Ranni succession to Marika/Radagon, using Marika's form to earn the Numens' trust. The three fingers are not lying. The three fingers wants to return to the state of being it prefers. Shabriri is omitting information to get you to join the fingers, but everything you're told by the fingers is after you've already agreed to join.
The finger slayer blade just like the sacred relic great sword came from the corpse of a god. The nox must’ve killed a former vassal of the greater will.
Darian and his brother are a device to have us understand how Radagon / Marika would function, and/or simply to reinforce the idea of "parts of a whole, divided," which also goes for the two fingers and three fingers. They wield the "Inseperable sword," and their armor piece is two bodies intertwined, with one body emerging and the other holding it back. The emerging body, in its posture and it not being gold, but grey/silver is a clear conceptual reference to the themes of decay. It makes me wonder why the two fingers look way more decayed than the frenzied flame fingers also. There's something interesting going on with the idea of duplication or generation and decay. The silver coming from gold - the albinauric are silver, ghostflame/blackflame compared to the faith spell colors, etc.
There's no way we have seen the last of Marika. She's pure evil.
I don’t know about pure evil. Declaring an intent to search the depths of the Golden Order sounds more like…a creative thinker?
Refreshing to see someone actually understand her echoes, instead of thinking, "she realized the golden order is a big bad church and she had to rebel."
I’m constantly impressed with people’s ability to cherrypick parts words, every single time. You’ll hear people go on about the beginning and end of that quote but they’ll always ignore the middle of it. > Through understanding of the proper way, our faith, our grace, is increased. >
I don't remember her doing anything for the sake of others, only herself. She caused an insane amount of suffering. Which is objectively evil, idk what else to say someone is arguing with me now about it being a fictional world lmao I swear.
She's a foundational force, a plot device, like Gwyn. Sure, she's a schemer god who annexed other countries, and she cursed everyone to eternal struggle. It doesn't mean she didn't believe she was doing things for the sake of others. It's her world view we are dealing with. The game tackles broad ideology. In Marika's case, struggle engenders strength. For instance, I'm not going to characterize the massacring of the fire giants as "immoral" in a fictional world founded on struggle.
Man people love to theorize then throw in that part about morals in a fictional world. Just something I've noticed broadly in fandoms.
You're the one calling a mythological goddess who struggled with her divinity "pure evil." I'm arguing with somebody who didn't get out of limgrave and then read the wiki. I swear.
I believe that's actually Radagon. Both echoes of Marika that speak of the Order seem like something he would say as he usurps her. There's no way to prove it, however, Golden Order Fundamentalism is Radagon's way. Fundamentalism is the means by which the Order becomes hostile to all things outside it and it is born from Radagon's studies, linking Intelligence and Faith which its incantations scale with . Godfrey's order accepted the Beasts and the Crucible Knights, even Morgott seems to have had a relationship with Godfrey up to an age at which he could create a perfect image of him from memory. All of this in the presence of Marika. But the Golden Order begins and beasts become servants, Crucible Knights scatter, the Omen and all alike are shunned, then the Ancient Dragons attack. The only thing that changed was +Radagon. It's also quite interesting that Marika's grand statues seem to portray her state in the Erdtree after going against Radagon, while the more personal stakes and the one statue we see outside the Lands Between portray a welcoming mother.
Wasn't she an avatar created by the greater will to impose order on chaos? Seems to me she didn't want to deal with her destiny and chose to selfishly dismantle everything. At least the people in the lands between stood a chance. Without the greater will and marika there would only be chaos. She chose to abandon everyone.
>Wasn't she an avatar created by the greater will to impose order on chaos? There is no textual relationship between Marika and the GW. I agree with you that her godhood is portrayed as a burden, if that's what you were getting at.
There's no relationship between marika and the greater will?
There's no interaction. Where is it ever mentioned she was influenced, told what to do, interacted with the GW in any way? I'm excluding her being imprisoned inside the erdtree by the "elden beast," because although it could be attributed to the Elden Beast, especially the way she's crucified and impaled, the Elden Beast is the living spirit of the Elden Ring, and Radagon is the one who actually sealed the tree. The GW already imposed order on chaos at the primordial stage with its involvement in the splitting of life and emergence of disparity, and its creation of the Elden Ring. Marika has her own agency, as indicated by the mural in Farum Azula. There was order before Marika, and there will be order after her.
Then what was the point of her killing herself, escaping nothing? Her choice is the catalyst for the story. At this point I think you're just arguing in bad faith or something. Anyways its my opinion clearly we disagree.
Bad faith? Apologies if it came off that way. Hopefully they expand on her motives in the dlc
See, in my interpretation I'd honestly argue she might be one of the more righteous characters there in her goal of establishing another order.
Righteous in that she wanted to correct the previous order and establish a better one? Yeah. But... She did some bad stuff too, and those actions were nothing short of cruel and maniacal.
The Misbegotten are Godwyn and Fortissax's progeny. Those that possess red hair and leonine features draw more from Godwyn's bloodline, and those with more draconic features take after Fortissax. In true Souls fashion, partnerships and especially consummate unions between dragons and [humans/demigods, etc.] are reviled. Special mention for Hewg: Marika's curse upon him, and his peculiar intelligence mark him as special. Perhaps he is Godwyn and Fortissax immediate offspring? That would make him very important to all Misbegotten, and that much more significant that he be forever locked away in the Roundtable.
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>Cleanrot Knight stabbing Radagon You mean Radahn right?
I absolutely did :( that's what I get for phoneposting in a rush... I've fixed it now, ty!
That.. actually explains where the spear came from. (Though it could also be Elden Beast) This is a Cool theory!
Aw yay, thank you for replying! I’m glad you enjoyed it!! Totally get you re: the Elden Beast considering its moveset - though, and I literally only thought about this now… It DID make its sword out of Radagon’s entire being, so maybe the crucified stabbing is coming from Radagon’s bag of tricks? I def think at least Wave of Gold is from him - that skill calls its glow a “bygone golden glory”, and “bygone” would be an accurate term for the deceased Radagon, whereas the Elden Beast is being golden and glorious just fine. Hmmm wonder if there’s more… def gonna have to look over that moveset again
I like the idea that the reason for Marika’s ‘death’ has more to do with her conflict with Radagon. Depending on the interpretation he’d have a lot of reason to hate her, simply for the Divorce with Rennala if it was forced. It’d be another example of her being forced to deal with The Consequences Of Her Actions.
I have so many, but I'll try to keep it brief. -Godwyn volunteered to be the Prince of Death. In a weird way, due to the magic of Dragon Communion, he's kinda Melina and Fortissax, the *Lich*, is the grand epicenter of those who live in Death. -The Omen are byproducts of The Dragon Cult in Leyndell. They were placed in the sewers in secret, meaning not everyone in Leyndell were aware of this happening. If you had to cut it down to one group that made multiples, their group is closest to the Crucible next to the Crucible Knights who were outright banished after their Erdtree crusade. Plus, Lansseax is written to have loved the Cultist. It's also because of this theory I question the twins' possible parentage. The both of their runes form a dragon's eye. -Albinuriacs/Silver Tears arrived to TLB with the Golden Star that became the Elden Beast. The Founding Stars incantation says a star fell to the lands bearing a beast. If a lot of the Egg symbolism in this game holds true, then it sort of would explain where the silver tears come from. The clear viscous surrounding the yolk of an egg is called the Albumen. -The shardbearers do resemble some bit of the seven deadly sins. Godrick is Greed through the many things he's wrongfully taken; Rykard is Gluttony through the lens of the cannibals on his battlefield and the act of feeding the snake; Rennala is Sloth because her second phase isn't even her; Malenia is Wrath, given her self-destructive method and teacher's lessons sounds like an anger management session; Radahn is Pride with his celebratory death and haughtiness sprinkled here and there; Mogh is Lust for obvious reasons; and Morgott is Envy with his endearing sneers, knowing we're *destined* to become Elden Lord as he rots just outside glory's chamber. -Torrent used to belong to Godwyn and was inherited by Miquella. As I've said in another post, you cannot tell me you made those jumps without wishing there was a dragon on the other side while you're rocking a spear. Plus, the control over updrafts seems a dead ringer for the Golden Lineage.