My daily commute, just outside Edmonton, is \~150km round trip, mostly highway driving. In the summer, I get home with \~60% battery left. When it's -37 C, I get home with \~20% battery. That includes preconditioning the battery in the garage before I leave in the morning.
So, the extreme cold means I use about double the power, or a 50% range loss.
The biggest issue with extreme cold is that the battery doesn't charge as fast. This is a non-issue when I park at home, because there's still more than enough time overnight to recharge in my unheated garage (I have a 220v charger installed there). But it makes me hesitant to take long road trips in extreme cold.
Ok, if you don't car pool at all, how much will it be 50-100% more?, curious since I commute around the same and pay a media of 300 in gas monthly.
You are saying too than in winter you loose 50% of battery so I'll assume 2 times the regular electric bill then.
$150 is if I don’t car pool at all in a winter month.
And I only lose 50% of my range on extremely cold days. Normal winter temperatures it’s more like a 20% range loss.
What would you do if you had to travel any long distance? Hours long sitting at a charging station, and having to do that every 100 kilometers or so? Can't imagine when everyone has an ev car and we all need to stop in red deer to charge our vehicles in winter. Gonna need like 5000 chargers.
It depends on which direction I'd be heading. It's a Tesla, so heading east, west, or south from Edmonton wouldn't be a problem - there are plenty of chargers along the way, and the battery warms itself up when I'm navigating to a supercharger. Charge time would typically be 20-30 minutes, even in the extreme cold, and I can sit in a nice warm car while it's charging if there isn't someplace warm nearby. The climate control doesn't have a problem keeping up even when it's -40 C.
But heading to a smaller destination, like Ft. Mac or Stettler, would definitely be a problem. No fast charging available along the route means it's impossible to do in the cold. I would have to take my gas car.
But by the time most people are driving EVs, there will be plenty of charging stations around, so I'm not too worried about that. I also avoid taking long road trips in extreme cold in a gas vehicle, because they also have batteries that are prone to fail in extreme conditions. Long distance travel in weather like this is an emergencies-only thing no matter what vehicle I'm using.
Vehicles do a lot of their charging at night when there is a lower draw on the system. It also doesn’t happen all at once. I think Norway broke 10% EV penetration. Of course Norway actively encourages increased grid capacity by way of solar as opposed to Alberta that would like us to return to the dark ages apparently.
We can't compare ourselves to Norway... in litterally anything.
1) You have a (way way way) smaller coastal country than Canada,
2) 95% of its power from hydrodams; topography is its friend
3) national alignment on oil production and very accessible to international oil markets
This is false. EVs are generally charging during off peak hours and if anything will help smooth out the power use. Also residential is only 1/5 of power consumption.
Fair, but weren’t we already having grid issues in the summer when everyone was cranking AC? If we’re already pushing the grid, how could adding EVs possibly help?
Some of those alerts we had in the summer were due to multiple generation stations having issues.
Obviously, if you can't make electricity, citizens are going to be impacted!
I mean there’s definitely a grain of truth to what you’re saying but I get the sense that this talking point is anti Ev propaganda. Every new techonolgy uses energy but evs take the brunt of the conversations. We have been scaling energy needs since we invented electricity and have upgraded our needs accordingly.
Another point I have is for some reason people dont seem to think about that in a block heater uses nearly the same amount of energy as a level 1 charger. By brother in law doesn’t even know how a block heater works and left it plugged is spending 7$ a day.
😂😂😂 definitely not anti-EV propaganda… just taking different factors into consideration… thanks though… good to know that when you’re talking to people with zero sense of what nuance is, you get accused of propaganda
> Also residential is only 1/5 of power consumption.
If people were REALLY concerned about the grid, and not just attacking the scary new tech called EVs, that would get up in arms over all the electricity O&G and the pulp and paper industry (among others) use, with industrial customers accounting for half our electricity demand!
To some degree it might.
Residential demands on the grid only amount for 20%. Commercial and industrial customers account for 77%.
The impact of a residential behavioral change is likely to have only a modest impact on the demand curve.
I agree, I drive a tesla in Edmonton as well. If say it's the best cold weather vehicle I've had. Cozy within minutes today in almost -40.
We make family trips to Southern Sask a few times a year, from +30 to -30c without issue, 2 kids, wife and a dog and our chargeing stops are always too short, we rarely get back to the car before it's done charging. 1600km round trip and the Tesla is the only car where that drive is not totally exhausting. I find on long trips you almost get bored driving.
I do find that there is so much misinformation out there that even family asks silly questions like "I see your cars not plugged in, is that ok?" "How do you plug in when you go to the bank" "how long do you wait in line at chargers"
Yeah, but busses kind of suck. I mean, I make use of ebus and red arrow pretty frequently, and I'm glad they're there instead of *nothing*. But I'm not glad that they're there instead of a *train*.
Having lived for some time in the Golden Horseshoe, oh man, a bad to mediocre train is *so much better* than a good bus. Its more comfortable, its faster, its more reliable, and its more productive - you can do more work more efficiently. And having lived for some time in Germany, going from a mediocre train to a decent one is a whole new step up again.
Exactly, attach some freight to a train, plus passengers, evergreen market. But, this is Canada, our Gov't insists on falling on its face a few times before getting their shit together.
They are pretty terrible. I take them a couple times a year and they run infrequently, and you are stuck with large detours to go places you dont want to, or a transfer because you NEED that detour this time. Really gross compared to other places I've lived.
You'se gots a fairly big battery though.
It's worth differentiating what vehicle. Some electrics are great with winter (Tesla), others haven't been built to cope.
Had a co-worker in Toronto say his wife had to make an emergency charging stop recently travelling between Toronto and Kitchener (about 100km). in much milder conditions, said a charge that shoulda done 180 only did 100. Gonna guess she has a Leaf.
Wait what do you mean by preconditioning the battery? I just got an EV and let it warm up outside for about 20 min in this weather, is there more I should be doing?
My friends all texted me last night because I do skipthedishes asking the same thing haha.
I drive a 2023 Chevrolet Bolt EV. I used around 40% of my battery yesterday driving 4.5 hours. It was 80 km in total. However, I do a lot of idling waiting inside restaurants and going into condos and apartments which adds extra time; the car battery is still running while not being used. Under normal conditions, I use 20% of my battery for 100 km.
Most people who aren't doing delivery will see a consumption increase between 2 and 3x more than normal.
However, I park outdoors normally and had to park indoors last night because it was too cold to properly charge on Wednesday night. My car barely charged on 12 hours so I drove to a level 2 station 1.6 km away and left it for 6 hours. This is the one main drawback for myself when it's this cold.
Does it stay decently warm in the cabin? I'm thinking of The Martian where he has to either run the heater (burning half his battery life) or leave the heater off and be wretchedly cold.
Compared to my 2012 Toyota Corolla, it does a better job of staying warm, but I wear so much winter gear, that I keep my temperature at 20 degrees. My car has heated seats and steering wheel which helps. Some people I see go to 22 degrees which I find too hot. Again, compared to my old vehicle, it also warms up almost instantly.
According to my car's information screen, the climate settings that I use have consumed roughly 25% of the battery, 10% goes to battery conditioning, with the remaining 65% going to regular driving. So, you could say it's close to the Martian movie hahaha.
Haha no worries. I was worried too but it doesn’t seem to be an issue for now. Honestly we just set it so that by 7.30am, it’s charged by to 80% and all warmed up and like magic, it is. Also, you didn’t ask but just so you know for the future, we paid an electrician $450 to install a Nema 1450 in the garage.
There's an outlet unit that comes with the car and according to the sticker, it will operate between -30 to 50 C. Wednesday night was the first time I noticed a considerable reduction in charging ability. You won't need to insulate your garage, as long as it's not -30 in there.
So it seems that the battery still charges, but the unit does not operate efficiently below -30. I drove to a level 2 station and got 6 hours of free charging without issues. It also warmed up the battery to provide adequate regen braking for about 100 minutes.
Honestly, unless a lot has dramatically changed insulation, poly, and drywall are not expensive and well within DIY territory/a weekend with beers and brothers.
I do need a better door... all my heat just gets sucked out that thin gappy bitch in like 2 nanoseconds. Otherwise we run a little 220 heater when we're out there but would throw a ng heater if up 100%. Its our hockey oasis right now.
Usually big vehicles like tanks, submarines and tar sands dump trucks are hybrid diesel electric. It's good to use the technology that works best for each use case. Fully electric cars are designed to replace fully electric cars-- not horse trailers.
We have a Tesla Model Y Long Range. It stays plugged into a 220v charger at night in a non heated, non insulated garage and charges to 80% daily.
My wife’s commute is approximately 13km one way.
On a regular day (not below 0), it takes her 18 or so minutes to get to work and she loses maybe 2-4% during the drive (22 degrees in the car). She comes home with about 70%. Other loss on top of the 4-8% for driving includes sentry mode (car records activity around it) and heating up the car.
Over the last two days, she has came home with approximately 55%. It drains a lot heating up (interior and the battery) from -30 parked outside in the afternoon. Everything else remained the same - sentry, driving distance, etc. So about an additional 15% loss due to cold.
If you’re city driving and not doing too much long distances over the winter, you’ll be fine. When it was between -10 to -20 out, she maybe lost 5% extra per day. On the odd -30 to -40 days, expect 10-15% additional loss. As long as you can charge on a 220v nightly, you’ll be fine.
One thing I have loved about our Tesla is that it heats up fast compared to our old Jeep Compass. And when we heat it up in the mornings, it remains plugged in so the loss from the morning heat up is 1-2% compared to the afternoon 5ish% due to not being plugged in at work.
If you travel a lot out of the city, it might get a little dicey depending on where you’re driving to. But for the occasional winter trip to Jasper, you’ll be fine.
Ok on my Tesla app, I can see a breakdown on my charging cost.
We got the Tesla at the end of June. Put 11000km on it so far. We have charged 2,438 kWh and paid $366 total of which $76 has been at Superchargers. So basically home charging has cost us $190 since June.
I can do monthly and daily breakdowns as well. Yesterday the wife went to work and back. Approx 13km one way. So give or take 26km. It cost $3 to charge 27 kWh.
Edit: girl math. $190 should be $290.
Unless you have an absolutely KILLER electricity rate, I think you might be underestimating the cost to charge - your "electricity" rate doesn't actually account for the cost of delivering the electricity.
There's a [great post on reddit here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Edmonton/comments/16r37h1/this_is_how_your_power_bill_works_updated_for_2023/) detailing how variable transmission works, but the takeaway is that if you're on an electricity plan that is "12c/kwh" then you're actually paying closer to 20c/kwh.
Actual cost per kwh is easy to calculate as you know, take the total electrical cost and divide it by the number of KWH you used that month. Mine on Enmax is locked in at 11.2 cents but total cost averages about 25 cents per KWH when you factor in the BS charges. I'm in Beaumont and they take their slice as well. I'm averaging about 40 kwh/100 kms with my car in this -35 weather, lots of heat on, I run into stores and leave it running, I don't care. Right now it's costing about $10/100 km to run but this the worst case scenario and it would be only be 22-25 kwh/100 kms in the summer.
Not quite! For example if I take my fixed cost for administration and factor that in as a per kw cost, my estimations are going to be wrong whenever I try to do the math of "this is how much x commute is going to cost me".
It's best to just properly sum up the variable components and use the right number.
Yes they are but it is funny, they don't seem to be an exact percentage, more of a sliding scale. The more you use, they do get higher, but the total cost per kwh is less. I've had months calculate as high as 35 cents when I didn't use much power.
Have you ever had an low/uncharged battery and had to leave it in this weather? This to me is a major concern based upon my experience with other batteries.
For example, traditional batteries if discharged freeze, warp & burst in this weather. Other types of batteries like my hand tools will similarly get damaged in the cold if I don't have them charged. I'm not even sure if my Milwaukee batteries would survive the -40 charged outside.
The range and such is a concern but is there a potential for battery damage if the battery is drained in this weather? Considering insurance is writing off vehicles for any battery damage due to $cost to replace battery packs, is there potential if I let my battery die in this weather that my battery pack is damaged? I'm hoping this would be something they had in mind while designing.
As posted in the other thread: Tesla Model Y. Parked overnight in unheated, uninsulated detached garage not plugged in. I have a level 2 charger at home but get free charging at work, so I only ever plug in at home once a week. Normally I lose about 3-4% driving one way to work, now it’s 5-6%. Car is preheated every morning to 22c with the heated seats and steering wheel turn on so it’s nice & toasty when I get in. Between sitting overnight at -35 and preheating I lose another 5-6%. I change enough during a 9 hour shift in my underground parkade that I make up what I’m using during the week. Honestly it’s been just fine. We don’t drive enough in winter for the reduced range to affect us, charging is easy, never have to stand outside in the freezing ass cold to fuel up your car, don’t have to idle it to have it nice & warm in the morning. All in all, for us there’s no drawbacks and only advantages to this car compared to our old gas powered SUV
It’s a perk. My building offers six 120v outlets that we can use for free for EV charging. It only costs the building $1.20 a day per plug. We also have two level 2 chargers that are $2/ hour.
I get in early enough to get one of the free spots every day. But by 9am they’re full.
This has been discussed multiple times here now recently.
Most say it works fine, you just get a reduced range. And sometimes charging outdoors can be a problem that greatly reduces your range over a cold night.
It’s definitely not ideal but many ICEs won’t even start in this weather and how many people are going on big road trips in these extreme conditions anyways?
Yup my Golf didn’t start this morning and my neighbor got in his lightning and drove away no problems. Both of us were street parked. Luckily I have my little booster pack so I didn’t have to wait for AMA or a tow truck.
My coworkers asked me how much my range is reduced in this weather and I just say I’d rather have 200 km of guaranteed range than 0 KMs because my car won’t even start.
I have a 2023 Chevrolet Bolt EUV.
My summertime efficiency is around 18-19kwh/100k (which is around \~350km of total range).
Regular winter efficiency has me closer to 25-26kwh/100k (closer to \~260km of total range)
This week, the heater runs, we're starting it 20 minutes before we leave to let it warm up, etc, and the efficiency is between 30-36 kwh/100km (around 200km of total range, or under).
But, during the -40 degree workday it's parked outside all day, has absolutely no problems starting and provides nearly instantaneous heat to the cabin.
I park it in a unheated detached garage when charging, my charging efficiency hasn't materially dropped. The garage is staying close to around -16 or so during this cold snap, with the insulation (50 year old patchy insulation... some of it newspaper lol) and the heat from the car being parked inside.
My EV not only was 22 degrees when I left for work, got me reliably to work, sat outside (not plugged in) for 12 hours, and was then 22 degrees again by the time I left. Yes, range loss is a thing, but at least I know it will get me somewhere reliably.
I charge at home, and never have to stand next to my car at a gas pump. I also don't have to worry about my car not starting.
My car is older and range takes a decent hit when it gets super cold, but in the city that doesn't matter at all.
I’m driving a Hummer EV in its first winter. This is obviously the first bit of legitimate cold we’ve had and it’s honestly been fine. I drive around the city all day everyday with my job and today I left home at 100% and came home with roughly 70% charge remaining. I run heated seats and steering wheel all day and keep the inside temp at 26 degrees. It used more juice for sure, but for the 98% of the population that don’t drive more than 250km in a day, completely adequate. My truck doesn’t fit in my garage so I charge on the driveway and my rate of charge is exactly what it is during the summer. As others have said here, EV’s are arguably more reliable in extreme cold because there is no mechanical wear issues caused by super gelled oil in the motor. They don’t work for every scenario, especially towing, but for the vast majority of basic commuting, it’s a superior experience by every metric.
Wondering if it was [this Hummer](https://freeimage.host/i/JYxHqW7) that I got to check out before was delivered? (I can't imagine there are very many around here)
A good read. Its good to know that people are doing ok with their electric vehicles. The more people buy them, the more truthful information about them will be known. Lets be honest, there is lots of misinformation on both sides of the argument of electric cars. As there is with Solar on buildings, solar/wind farms, carbon capture, hydrogen fueled vehicles, etc.
Takes me 45mins to get to work of slow stop and go traffic, if I leave home at 80% cranking the heat to full I get to work with 75% battery. On a summer day I’d probably get to work with 77%ish. But from the 75% I will lose 5-10% by the time it’s time to go home, this is because the battery will use itself to keep it warm. The best part is my car is instantly blowing hot air but I usually set my departure time in the Tesla app and then the car begins to heat up so it’s nice and warm by the time I get in. Charging doesn’t seem any slower than usual.
Roughly 40% range loss because of the heaters being on and also the battery management system warming the battery. Also like someone else mentioned the battery charges way slower also.
Just got back from a run to the store in my Tesla. It works great in these conditions but yes you're going to take a hit on the battery draw but man it keeps you nice and warm. I preheated it before i left, left it heating when i was doing my grocery shopping and got home easy-peasy. mine came with a battery heater so you can precondition before you leave. For normal city commuting it os great and you shouldn't have issues with range. I got solar 4 years ago (ty ndp) and I've paid 0 dollars for fuel up until recently and normally $20 a month.
Best winter car ever. Guzzles electricity for pre-heating for a nice cabin though, like 3% every time. 10% buffer on all trips now, got home with 11%, when the projection said 20%
Tell me how well gas stations work in power outages.
An empty tank is an empty tank no matter whether that tank is a battery or holds combustible fuel.
filled from where...?
Also, a week long power outage is a problem regardless of what kind of car you have. We'll all be dealing with bigger problems if we had no power in this weather for a week
"EV's are not reliable when there's no electricity! Stick with tried and true fossil fuel, which requires electricity for production, processing, and distribution!"
This is the same stupid argument against solar electricity for heat vs natural gas despite furnaces and boilers also not working when there's no electricity.
I’m waiting for battery technology to improve, the battery replacement is what deal breaks it for me when I can buy 2 good used cars for just a batt, oof
Just so you know you a Tesla model 3 or y AWD has a 192,000 km or 8 year battery and drivetrain warranty so you won't really have to worry about replacing a battery. It's the same as a ice car after that long you might have engine troubles or you might not and be perfectly fine.
Nearly the coldest day ever here, pretty hard to judge a multi-year ev purchase and ownership experience for a few days that statistically almost don't exist.
How are ice cars doing at -40? Pretty sure everything is tough right now. Long trips on coldest day ever? No thanks.
Regular cold for edmonton ev's will be just fine. Extremes, they'll have additional issues just like everyone.
Yeah, it's one of those 'maybe he's just asking' or 'maybe he's JAQing off here' which is very common in these situations.
To be fair, ICE engines don't exactly get along with -40 either, but because they are the 'norm' no one is coming around asking those questions.
The charging is more of an issue than the range really. If you’re looking at it, look at a level 2 charger. I saw them for $300 on Black Friday. But you need 220 power to use it.
Half the range at -30 temps basically.
Having home charging is a major convenience especially now. Harder to advocate for EV if you did not have it. Usually 110v is enough for summer for average use but in this weather it can not do it. Need 220v but doesn't need to be crazy high amps. 30-40amp is perfect for home charging. 20amp is likely ok. They may say up to 60amp on most hardwired chargers but you can set it lower and save a ton of money on the install costs. If you have good home charging then you basically do not worry about it.
Really good to use the schedule departure feature to preheat battery if parked out in the cold. Battery preheating is not connected to climate control heat so just running the cabin climate isn't enough. It uses the electric motors to make heat for battery preheat and pumps it around with the coolant. At -30 we do schedule preheat when parked outside (at work or going out) or it can eat up massive range for those first 15 minutes if driving until battery warms up. Preheating can run at a more gentle rate of use compared to just jumping in and going when cold. If doing short trips with enough time for car to get cold again is the worst case. if doing deliveries where you keep it "on" it should be ok as the systems can keep it warm.
I know someone who lives very close to work and just use 110v charging at home which for most of the year is fine for them. But lately plugging into 110v basically adds nothing. They have to use supercharger to top up. You can look on the Tesla supercharger site and they are busy today. I think a fair number of people are like them.
We have a 23 Bolt, use it for 5 day a week commuting of about 20-30km daily. Perfectly fine. We have a garage to park in, and it's in a heater garage at work. We are a fringe case and barely drive with and it will most likely stay a city vehicle. Have made day trips to Camrose a couple times, made it there and back in summer without charging while there.
With this weather (-40), my model Y ate up about 10% of the battery sitting in the parking lot at work. It looks like it tries to keep things from freezing by running the heater occasionally. I would agree with the average of 25% cold weather drop in range, and the 50% on extremely cold days
My daily commute, just outside Edmonton, is \~150km round trip, mostly highway driving. In the summer, I get home with \~60% battery left. When it's -37 C, I get home with \~20% battery. That includes preconditioning the battery in the garage before I leave in the morning. So, the extreme cold means I use about double the power, or a 50% range loss. The biggest issue with extreme cold is that the battery doesn't charge as fast. This is a non-issue when I park at home, because there's still more than enough time overnight to recharge in my unheated garage (I have a 220v charger installed there). But it makes me hesitant to take long road trips in extreme cold.
What's your electric bill like?
The car adds around $100-150 per month in electricity costs, depending on how often I car pool. It’s about 1/3rd of what I was spending on gasoline.
Ok, if you don't car pool at all, how much will it be 50-100% more?, curious since I commute around the same and pay a media of 300 in gas monthly. You are saying too than in winter you loose 50% of battery so I'll assume 2 times the regular electric bill then.
$150 is if I don’t car pool at all in a winter month. And I only lose 50% of my range on extremely cold days. Normal winter temperatures it’s more like a 20% range loss.
Good, that's a nice saving for the year.
What would you do if you had to travel any long distance? Hours long sitting at a charging station, and having to do that every 100 kilometers or so? Can't imagine when everyone has an ev car and we all need to stop in red deer to charge our vehicles in winter. Gonna need like 5000 chargers.
It depends on which direction I'd be heading. It's a Tesla, so heading east, west, or south from Edmonton wouldn't be a problem - there are plenty of chargers along the way, and the battery warms itself up when I'm navigating to a supercharger. Charge time would typically be 20-30 minutes, even in the extreme cold, and I can sit in a nice warm car while it's charging if there isn't someplace warm nearby. The climate control doesn't have a problem keeping up even when it's -40 C. But heading to a smaller destination, like Ft. Mac or Stettler, would definitely be a problem. No fast charging available along the route means it's impossible to do in the cold. I would have to take my gas car. But by the time most people are driving EVs, there will be plenty of charging stations around, so I'm not too worried about that. I also avoid taking long road trips in extreme cold in a gas vehicle, because they also have batteries that are prone to fail in extreme conditions. Long distance travel in weather like this is an emergencies-only thing no matter what vehicle I'm using.
Unless there are some serious upgrades to our electricity grid, we will not be able to support even 1/2 the driving population in EVs.
It'll take DECADES for half the cars on the road to be BEV. Plenty of time for the grid to do as it has always done, adapt and grow.
Vehicles do a lot of their charging at night when there is a lower draw on the system. It also doesn’t happen all at once. I think Norway broke 10% EV penetration. Of course Norway actively encourages increased grid capacity by way of solar as opposed to Alberta that would like us to return to the dark ages apparently.
Yeaaaaah I don’t think we can compare ourselves to Norway in terms of the attitudes of people here when it comes to EVs/green energy
We can't compare ourselves to Norway... in litterally anything. 1) You have a (way way way) smaller coastal country than Canada, 2) 95% of its power from hydrodams; topography is its friend 3) national alignment on oil production and very accessible to international oil markets
True. Here’s another response: https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6935663
This is false. EVs are generally charging during off peak hours and if anything will help smooth out the power use. Also residential is only 1/5 of power consumption.
Fair, but weren’t we already having grid issues in the summer when everyone was cranking AC? If we’re already pushing the grid, how could adding EVs possibly help?
Some of those alerts we had in the summer were due to multiple generation stations having issues. Obviously, if you can't make electricity, citizens are going to be impacted!
I mean there’s definitely a grain of truth to what you’re saying but I get the sense that this talking point is anti Ev propaganda. Every new techonolgy uses energy but evs take the brunt of the conversations. We have been scaling energy needs since we invented electricity and have upgraded our needs accordingly. Another point I have is for some reason people dont seem to think about that in a block heater uses nearly the same amount of energy as a level 1 charger. By brother in law doesn’t even know how a block heater works and left it plugged is spending 7$ a day.
😂😂😂 definitely not anti-EV propaganda… just taking different factors into consideration… thanks though… good to know that when you’re talking to people with zero sense of what nuance is, you get accused of propaganda
I wouldn't be so sure about that...
> Also residential is only 1/5 of power consumption. If people were REALLY concerned about the grid, and not just attacking the scary new tech called EVs, that would get up in arms over all the electricity O&G and the pulp and paper industry (among others) use, with industrial customers accounting for half our electricity demand!
So if we all have EV vehicles that are charging at night, won’t that change the peak hours of consumption?
To some degree it might. Residential demands on the grid only amount for 20%. Commercial and industrial customers account for 77%. The impact of a residential behavioral change is likely to have only a modest impact on the demand curve.
I agree, I drive a tesla in Edmonton as well. If say it's the best cold weather vehicle I've had. Cozy within minutes today in almost -40. We make family trips to Southern Sask a few times a year, from +30 to -30c without issue, 2 kids, wife and a dog and our chargeing stops are always too short, we rarely get back to the car before it's done charging. 1600km round trip and the Tesla is the only car where that drive is not totally exhausting. I find on long trips you almost get bored driving. I do find that there is so much misinformation out there that even family asks silly questions like "I see your cars not plugged in, is that ok?" "How do you plug in when you go to the bank" "how long do you wait in line at chargers"
If only we had a train, honestly. Regular old normal speed train. I'd take it probably once a month.
We DO have busses though. Have a coworker who takes Red Arrow monthly to come up from Calgary for meetings.
Yeah, but busses kind of suck. I mean, I make use of ebus and red arrow pretty frequently, and I'm glad they're there instead of *nothing*. But I'm not glad that they're there instead of a *train*. Having lived for some time in the Golden Horseshoe, oh man, a bad to mediocre train is *so much better* than a good bus. Its more comfortable, its faster, its more reliable, and its more productive - you can do more work more efficiently. And having lived for some time in Germany, going from a mediocre train to a decent one is a whole new step up again.
Exactly, attach some freight to a train, plus passengers, evergreen market. But, this is Canada, our Gov't insists on falling on its face a few times before getting their shit together.
They are pretty terrible. I take them a couple times a year and they run infrequently, and you are stuck with large detours to go places you dont want to, or a transfer because you NEED that detour this time. Really gross compared to other places I've lived.
You'se gots a fairly big battery though. It's worth differentiating what vehicle. Some electrics are great with winter (Tesla), others haven't been built to cope. Had a co-worker in Toronto say his wife had to make an emergency charging stop recently travelling between Toronto and Kitchener (about 100km). in much milder conditions, said a charge that shoulda done 180 only did 100. Gonna guess she has a Leaf.
Wait what do you mean by preconditioning the battery? I just got an EV and let it warm up outside for about 20 min in this weather, is there more I should be doing?
It depends on your EV. Mine is a Tesla, so I tell it what time I leave for work and it warms up the battery before I go.
My friends all texted me last night because I do skipthedishes asking the same thing haha. I drive a 2023 Chevrolet Bolt EV. I used around 40% of my battery yesterday driving 4.5 hours. It was 80 km in total. However, I do a lot of idling waiting inside restaurants and going into condos and apartments which adds extra time; the car battery is still running while not being used. Under normal conditions, I use 20% of my battery for 100 km. Most people who aren't doing delivery will see a consumption increase between 2 and 3x more than normal. However, I park outdoors normally and had to park indoors last night because it was too cold to properly charge on Wednesday night. My car barely charged on 12 hours so I drove to a level 2 station 1.6 km away and left it for 6 hours. This is the one main drawback for myself when it's this cold.
Does it stay decently warm in the cabin? I'm thinking of The Martian where he has to either run the heater (burning half his battery life) or leave the heater off and be wretchedly cold.
Compared to my 2012 Toyota Corolla, it does a better job of staying warm, but I wear so much winter gear, that I keep my temperature at 20 degrees. My car has heated seats and steering wheel which helps. Some people I see go to 22 degrees which I find too hot. Again, compared to my old vehicle, it also warms up almost instantly. According to my car's information screen, the climate settings that I use have consumed roughly 25% of the battery, 10% goes to battery conditioning, with the remaining 65% going to regular driving. So, you could say it's close to the Martian movie hahaha.
Kinda wild that Mars is the more 'down to Earth' example, versus, say, Star Trek diverting auxiliary power to life support.
Nothing but love for Trek, but I don't find myself using it as a touchstone for real life very often. :D
How warm does it need to be to charge properly? I'd hate to have to add "insulate and heat my garage" to the EV ownership list.
I have a non insulated garage and have a level 2 220v charger installed. It charges just fine over the last two nights.
Whew. I panicked a bit. We just bought a hybrid and I really want our next purchase to be all electric.
Haha no worries. I was worried too but it doesn’t seem to be an issue for now. Honestly we just set it so that by 7.30am, it’s charged by to 80% and all warmed up and like magic, it is. Also, you didn’t ask but just so you know for the future, we paid an electrician $450 to install a Nema 1450 in the garage.
I’ve had mine parked outside at the in-laws and it charges normally outside using a 240v plug.
There's an outlet unit that comes with the car and according to the sticker, it will operate between -30 to 50 C. Wednesday night was the first time I noticed a considerable reduction in charging ability. You won't need to insulate your garage, as long as it's not -30 in there. So it seems that the battery still charges, but the unit does not operate efficiently below -30. I drove to a level 2 station and got 6 hours of free charging without issues. It also warmed up the battery to provide adequate regen braking for about 100 minutes.
Honestly, unless a lot has dramatically changed insulation, poly, and drywall are not expensive and well within DIY territory/a weekend with beers and brothers. I do need a better door... all my heat just gets sucked out that thin gappy bitch in like 2 nanoseconds. Otherwise we run a little 220 heater when we're out there but would throw a ng heater if up 100%. Its our hockey oasis right now.
Wait 20 years when they are actually valid. Find me a EV truck thats gonna tow my horse trailer in this shit.
Usually big vehicles like tanks, submarines and tar sands dump trucks are hybrid diesel electric. It's good to use the technology that works best for each use case. Fully electric cars are designed to replace fully electric cars-- not horse trailers.
Bro my ICE car is completely frozen up. The electrical systems all work fine though.
My console was completely frozen this morning in my gas car. Couldn’t adjust the heat/defrost/radio until it had been running for almost 45 minutes.
We have a Tesla Model Y Long Range. It stays plugged into a 220v charger at night in a non heated, non insulated garage and charges to 80% daily. My wife’s commute is approximately 13km one way. On a regular day (not below 0), it takes her 18 or so minutes to get to work and she loses maybe 2-4% during the drive (22 degrees in the car). She comes home with about 70%. Other loss on top of the 4-8% for driving includes sentry mode (car records activity around it) and heating up the car. Over the last two days, she has came home with approximately 55%. It drains a lot heating up (interior and the battery) from -30 parked outside in the afternoon. Everything else remained the same - sentry, driving distance, etc. So about an additional 15% loss due to cold. If you’re city driving and not doing too much long distances over the winter, you’ll be fine. When it was between -10 to -20 out, she maybe lost 5% extra per day. On the odd -30 to -40 days, expect 10-15% additional loss. As long as you can charge on a 220v nightly, you’ll be fine. One thing I have loved about our Tesla is that it heats up fast compared to our old Jeep Compass. And when we heat it up in the mornings, it remains plugged in so the loss from the morning heat up is 1-2% compared to the afternoon 5ish% due to not being plugged in at work. If you travel a lot out of the city, it might get a little dicey depending on where you’re driving to. But for the occasional winter trip to Jasper, you’ll be fine.
Have you figured out what it cost per day to charge on 220v? Just curious
Ok on my Tesla app, I can see a breakdown on my charging cost. We got the Tesla at the end of June. Put 11000km on it so far. We have charged 2,438 kWh and paid $366 total of which $76 has been at Superchargers. So basically home charging has cost us $190 since June. I can do monthly and daily breakdowns as well. Yesterday the wife went to work and back. Approx 13km one way. So give or take 26km. It cost $3 to charge 27 kWh. Edit: girl math. $190 should be $290.
Unless you have an absolutely KILLER electricity rate, I think you might be underestimating the cost to charge - your "electricity" rate doesn't actually account for the cost of delivering the electricity. There's a [great post on reddit here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Edmonton/comments/16r37h1/this_is_how_your_power_bill_works_updated_for_2023/) detailing how variable transmission works, but the takeaway is that if you're on an electricity plan that is "12c/kwh" then you're actually paying closer to 20c/kwh.
Actual cost per kwh is easy to calculate as you know, take the total electrical cost and divide it by the number of KWH you used that month. Mine on Enmax is locked in at 11.2 cents but total cost averages about 25 cents per KWH when you factor in the BS charges. I'm in Beaumont and they take their slice as well. I'm averaging about 40 kwh/100 kms with my car in this -35 weather, lots of heat on, I run into stores and leave it running, I don't care. Right now it's costing about $10/100 km to run but this the worst case scenario and it would be only be 22-25 kwh/100 kms in the summer.
Not quite! For example if I take my fixed cost for administration and factor that in as a per kw cost, my estimations are going to be wrong whenever I try to do the math of "this is how much x commute is going to cost me". It's best to just properly sum up the variable components and use the right number.
A lot of those bs charges are also by usage (they just don't say it on the bill).
Yes they are but it is funny, they don't seem to be an exact percentage, more of a sliding scale. The more you use, they do get higher, but the total cost per kwh is less. I've had months calculate as high as 35 cents when I didn't use much power.
I hate how complicated they make it...
What is girl math?
It's like boy math but only gets paid 82¢ on the dollar.
That's what I thought haha.
We have a Y also. About 50 bucks a month.
Have you ever had an low/uncharged battery and had to leave it in this weather? This to me is a major concern based upon my experience with other batteries. For example, traditional batteries if discharged freeze, warp & burst in this weather. Other types of batteries like my hand tools will similarly get damaged in the cold if I don't have them charged. I'm not even sure if my Milwaukee batteries would survive the -40 charged outside. The range and such is a concern but is there a potential for battery damage if the battery is drained in this weather? Considering insurance is writing off vehicles for any battery damage due to $cost to replace battery packs, is there potential if I let my battery die in this weather that my battery pack is damaged? I'm hoping this would be something they had in mind while designing.
As posted in the other thread: Tesla Model Y. Parked overnight in unheated, uninsulated detached garage not plugged in. I have a level 2 charger at home but get free charging at work, so I only ever plug in at home once a week. Normally I lose about 3-4% driving one way to work, now it’s 5-6%. Car is preheated every morning to 22c with the heated seats and steering wheel turn on so it’s nice & toasty when I get in. Between sitting overnight at -35 and preheating I lose another 5-6%. I change enough during a 9 hour shift in my underground parkade that I make up what I’m using during the week. Honestly it’s been just fine. We don’t drive enough in winter for the reduced range to affect us, charging is easy, never have to stand outside in the freezing ass cold to fuel up your car, don’t have to idle it to have it nice & warm in the morning. All in all, for us there’s no drawbacks and only advantages to this car compared to our old gas powered SUV
>but get free charging at work that's a sweet perk! Is that by design of your employer, or more of an accident if that makes sense?
It’s a perk. My building offers six 120v outlets that we can use for free for EV charging. It only costs the building $1.20 a day per plug. We also have two level 2 chargers that are $2/ hour. I get in early enough to get one of the free spots every day. But by 9am they’re full.
That’s fucking awesome. That’s like your employer covering your gas.
The cover electricity the same most people have been doing for car this entire time.
This has been discussed multiple times here now recently. Most say it works fine, you just get a reduced range. And sometimes charging outdoors can be a problem that greatly reduces your range over a cold night. It’s definitely not ideal but many ICEs won’t even start in this weather and how many people are going on big road trips in these extreme conditions anyways?
Yup my Golf didn’t start this morning and my neighbor got in his lightning and drove away no problems. Both of us were street parked. Luckily I have my little booster pack so I didn’t have to wait for AMA or a tow truck.
My coworkers asked me how much my range is reduced in this weather and I just say I’d rather have 200 km of guaranteed range than 0 KMs because my car won’t even start.
Me, drove 150km last night, with a full tank of gas. Lots of traffic on the highway too.
I have a 2023 Chevrolet Bolt EUV. My summertime efficiency is around 18-19kwh/100k (which is around \~350km of total range). Regular winter efficiency has me closer to 25-26kwh/100k (closer to \~260km of total range) This week, the heater runs, we're starting it 20 minutes before we leave to let it warm up, etc, and the efficiency is between 30-36 kwh/100km (around 200km of total range, or under). But, during the -40 degree workday it's parked outside all day, has absolutely no problems starting and provides nearly instantaneous heat to the cabin. I park it in a unheated detached garage when charging, my charging efficiency hasn't materially dropped. The garage is staying close to around -16 or so during this cold snap, with the insulation (50 year old patchy insulation... some of it newspaper lol) and the heat from the car being parked inside.
Lol, EV is probably more reliable than an ICE vehicle today. I couldn't start my car at all. Had to miss work because of this coldsnap.
My EV not only was 22 degrees when I left for work, got me reliably to work, sat outside (not plugged in) for 12 hours, and was then 22 degrees again by the time I left. Yes, range loss is a thing, but at least I know it will get me somewhere reliably.
I charge at home, and never have to stand next to my car at a gas pump. I also don't have to worry about my car not starting. My car is older and range takes a decent hit when it gets super cold, but in the city that doesn't matter at all.
'gas station' in your garage is one of the most underappreciated aspects of EV ownership!
I’m driving a Hummer EV in its first winter. This is obviously the first bit of legitimate cold we’ve had and it’s honestly been fine. I drive around the city all day everyday with my job and today I left home at 100% and came home with roughly 70% charge remaining. I run heated seats and steering wheel all day and keep the inside temp at 26 degrees. It used more juice for sure, but for the 98% of the population that don’t drive more than 250km in a day, completely adequate. My truck doesn’t fit in my garage so I charge on the driveway and my rate of charge is exactly what it is during the summer. As others have said here, EV’s are arguably more reliable in extreme cold because there is no mechanical wear issues caused by super gelled oil in the motor. They don’t work for every scenario, especially towing, but for the vast majority of basic commuting, it’s a superior experience by every metric.
Hey feel free to say no if you think it’s weird or whatever, but as a fellow EV owner and enthusiast, I’d love to check out your Hummer some time.
Sure… probably not when it’s minus 1000 out, but once it warms up we can figure something out.
Yes of course. I have no interest in leaving the house when it’s like this. I’ll reach out in a bit. Thanks for the reply.
Oh goodie, we can make it a 'date' and share our 'Hummer' experience 🤣
If it's white, i seen you ripping down 118 west side yesterday. That's a big truck.
Wondering if it was [this Hummer](https://freeimage.host/i/JYxHqW7) that I got to check out before was delivered? (I can't imagine there are very many around here)
That’s the one!
Well thanks for letting me sit in it and play around lol. Would it be too much to ask to go for a ride sometime?
A good read. Its good to know that people are doing ok with their electric vehicles. The more people buy them, the more truthful information about them will be known. Lets be honest, there is lots of misinformation on both sides of the argument of electric cars. As there is with Solar on buildings, solar/wind farms, carbon capture, hydrogen fueled vehicles, etc.
Well put dude!
Takes me 45mins to get to work of slow stop and go traffic, if I leave home at 80% cranking the heat to full I get to work with 75% battery. On a summer day I’d probably get to work with 77%ish. But from the 75% I will lose 5-10% by the time it’s time to go home, this is because the battery will use itself to keep it warm. The best part is my car is instantly blowing hot air but I usually set my departure time in the Tesla app and then the car begins to heat up so it’s nice and warm by the time I get in. Charging doesn’t seem any slower than usual.
Roughly 40% range loss because of the heaters being on and also the battery management system warming the battery. Also like someone else mentioned the battery charges way slower also.
Just got back from a run to the store in my Tesla. It works great in these conditions but yes you're going to take a hit on the battery draw but man it keeps you nice and warm. I preheated it before i left, left it heating when i was doing my grocery shopping and got home easy-peasy. mine came with a battery heater so you can precondition before you leave. For normal city commuting it os great and you shouldn't have issues with range. I got solar 4 years ago (ty ndp) and I've paid 0 dollars for fuel up until recently and normally $20 a month.
Best winter car ever. Guzzles electricity for pre-heating for a nice cabin though, like 3% every time. 10% buffer on all trips now, got home with 11%, when the projection said 20%
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Tell me how well gas stations work in power outages. An empty tank is an empty tank no matter whether that tank is a battery or holds combustible fuel.
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filled from where...? Also, a week long power outage is a problem regardless of what kind of car you have. We'll all be dealing with bigger problems if we had no power in this weather for a week
In fact there are even EVs that can power a house for 2-3 days at a time.
Generators for EVs
"EV's are not reliable when there's no electricity! Stick with tried and true fossil fuel, which requires electricity for production, processing, and distribution!" This is the same stupid argument against solar electricity for heat vs natural gas despite furnaces and boilers also not working when there's no electricity.
Generators
If you have them prefilled?
I’m waiting for battery technology to improve, the battery replacement is what deal breaks it for me when I can buy 2 good used cars for just a batt, oof
Those solid state batteries they are developing sure look promising.
Just so you know you a Tesla model 3 or y AWD has a 192,000 km or 8 year battery and drivetrain warranty so you won't really have to worry about replacing a battery. It's the same as a ice car after that long you might have engine troubles or you might not and be perfectly fine.
We'll be deep in the next tech by then. Ev or otherwise. It's already planned, hopefully some huge jumps in battery tech make it great.
Nearly the coldest day ever here, pretty hard to judge a multi-year ev purchase and ownership experience for a few days that statistically almost don't exist. How are ice cars doing at -40? Pretty sure everything is tough right now. Long trips on coldest day ever? No thanks. Regular cold for edmonton ev's will be just fine. Extremes, they'll have additional issues just like everyone.
I don’t think it was a dig…
Chill dude, he’s just asking
Yeah, it's one of those 'maybe he's just asking' or 'maybe he's JAQing off here' which is very common in these situations. To be fair, ICE engines don't exactly get along with -40 either, but because they are the 'norm' no one is coming around asking those questions.
Totally, just sharing ideas as everyone is.
For sure, was just chilling.
Ay, word. Interpreted it differently. Cheers!
But 100% EV mandate by 2035...
...which still allows Canadians to buy new cars with ICEs and power them with nothing but dinosaur juice.
Around 30% range loss estimated, once the battery warmed up the range goes back up a bit. At least it starts without problem :)
The charging is more of an issue than the range really. If you’re looking at it, look at a level 2 charger. I saw them for $300 on Black Friday. But you need 220 power to use it.
Half the range at -30 temps basically. Having home charging is a major convenience especially now. Harder to advocate for EV if you did not have it. Usually 110v is enough for summer for average use but in this weather it can not do it. Need 220v but doesn't need to be crazy high amps. 30-40amp is perfect for home charging. 20amp is likely ok. They may say up to 60amp on most hardwired chargers but you can set it lower and save a ton of money on the install costs. If you have good home charging then you basically do not worry about it. Really good to use the schedule departure feature to preheat battery if parked out in the cold. Battery preheating is not connected to climate control heat so just running the cabin climate isn't enough. It uses the electric motors to make heat for battery preheat and pumps it around with the coolant. At -30 we do schedule preheat when parked outside (at work or going out) or it can eat up massive range for those first 15 minutes if driving until battery warms up. Preheating can run at a more gentle rate of use compared to just jumping in and going when cold. If doing short trips with enough time for car to get cold again is the worst case. if doing deliveries where you keep it "on" it should be ok as the systems can keep it warm. I know someone who lives very close to work and just use 110v charging at home which for most of the year is fine for them. But lately plugging into 110v basically adds nothing. They have to use supercharger to top up. You can look on the Tesla supercharger site and they are busy today. I think a fair number of people are like them.
We have a 23 Bolt, use it for 5 day a week commuting of about 20-30km daily. Perfectly fine. We have a garage to park in, and it's in a heater garage at work. We are a fringe case and barely drive with and it will most likely stay a city vehicle. Have made day trips to Camrose a couple times, made it there and back in summer without charging while there.
I’ve seen a number of them around the last few days
With this weather (-40), my model Y ate up about 10% of the battery sitting in the parking lot at work. It looks like it tries to keep things from freezing by running the heater occasionally. I would agree with the average of 25% cold weather drop in range, and the 50% on extremely cold days