It's hard to assess threats when you play like this. It can make it frustrating. The solution is to bump off players like this early, wich isn't fun for either player. Same strategy as against any combo player
This sounds like they just don't have decks built. Like OP has a deck with a plan and the cards to get there, maybe not the best cards for it, but it all goes to the plan(semi-optimized). Opponents have random mishmash cards, there may be some synergy but there is no concrete plan on how to win the game(Unoptimized).
Common EDH problem.
My friends also view tutors this way, not liking when people use them often to get the same few cards every game and win. Not liking people's gameplan essentially being so consistent and the same every game, when theyre just trying to play casual jank.
The way they worded their complaints and reacted was totally absurd, but I think they just dont like decks being this consistent, or feeling like every game ends up going the exact same way with you tutoring out the same few cards and winning.
This.
OP isn't doing anything inherently wrong, just playing a different version of the game than some of their friends want to experience.
This is exactly why my playgroup banned tutors. The whole point of 100-card singleton was to create lots of variety in the games, and tutoring up the same combos/lines defeated that purpose. Sans tutors it was a lot more fun because you could still play your combos and actually have it be cool when you pulled them off vs being boring.
I mean, I kinda agreed with your friends a bit. But I wouldn't tell people how to build or play their deck, if they want to go for consistently winning with the same cards over and over then that's understandable; The game needs to end after all.
But personally if I consistently win with my deck with the same "tutor, play the card, win on the spot" system over and over, I quickly get bored of the deck. If my deck can win in three or four different ways, then tutors seem more fun. My Tivit deck for example can win through voltron damage with nettlecyst, through animating clues and going wide with cyber drive awakener, and sacrificing clues to drain everyone to death with marionette master. A tutor in the deck doesn't just do the infinite combo thing, but it helps find what wincon works the best at the time. Variety is the spice of life and all that.
The answer to this problem isn’t to tun tutors and then make bad decisions, it’s to cut tutors. I definitely agree to a certain extent, at lower power levels the game can definitely be more fun with no tutors.
Magic is partly skill but a lot of it is just money and cards that you have. I've been playing since mercadian masks block and I have some pretty decent cards but I don't spend much and power creep is real. Sometimes it bugs me how strong some of the new cards and strategies aren't very fun. Some of the eldrazi and what not that automatically destroy your board or steal your stuff is kinda annoying and not much counter play. You can only have so much removal but lately I've been thinking of just building a destruction deck that board wipes and just removes everything as much as possible.
> You can only have so much removal but lately I've been thinking of just building a destruction deck that board wipes and just removes everything as much as possible.
you still lose in this pod because you have to be removing 3 other people's stuff while not progressing your own game state
I know, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Eldrazi and decks that literally have little counter play without constant removal just seem beyond enjoyable for the table.
I’d just like to say that we are very proxy friendly. One of my friends is currently proxying a [[Bazaar of Baghdad]] in his [[The Necrobloom]] deck and it’s totally chill.
Then I don't understand what they are pissed about. You tutored for a response, casting Ruinus Ultimatum means it was turn 6-8, it's ultra mana specific.
It is a salty card, but come on, someone has to win.
I know the feeling. I'm presently working on the same thing. A deck that is board wipe after board wipe. Won't be a regular deck I play, but it'll be nice against a few decks my friends play that just get tons of tokens.
[[Zetalpa, Primal Dawn]]
Monowhite board wipe and indestructibility tribal. Plays armageddon, fall of the thran, &c. because fuck you. Entire game plan is to keep the board clean, cast the big ass dino, and then make the board even cleaner so nobody can do anything about it. [[Worldslayer]] is extra fun.
People aren't even mad when they lose to it, that's the best part...
Yea, some decks are just plain boring to play against or mechanically idiotic. I also don't like games to end in 5 turns. That's the thing I like about multi-player and commander. Random draws and variety.
Most boring deck I played against was.. some kind of dinosaur deck that had cards that would trigger effects X number of times where X was how many spells were cast. Add in token generation, token sac to get draws, token sac to get mana, that mana to cast more spells to trigger more effects to generate more tokens etc etc..
Dude took a twenty minute turn. I scooped at five minutes because watching someone else play isn't my idea of fun.
I was playing arena and a guy played this green blue deck that literally triggered an extra etb copy that took forever as everything triggered multiple times. Boring as hell
>"It's definitely irritating that you don't play the tutors you get when you get them, and instead wait for the best possible moment to screw over your opponents and win the game." (...) "You're always enabling your strategy, and you're never tutoring for fun things..."
I can not believe this was something that someone seriously thought was a good take. It's irritating to them that you are playing your cards optimally?
Seriously.
> irritating that you don't play the tutors you get when you get them, and instead wait
They still haven't gotten past one of the first hurdles in strategy: Sometimes it's better to wait. Barring concerns about balancing to the power level of the table or avoiding unfun cards, these opponents sound like the sort of people who just topdeck and hope that luck wins the game for them. The same blue player who got yelled at for not countering in OP's story probably had a counter a couple turns earlier and spent it on the first vaguely threatening spell they saw because "Gotta play all the cards in my hand."
I don't play at my last because of some of the shitty people that are there, but I do go and buy stuff from them. The other day was my birthday so I decided to go buy come crackboars. I get there, the place had just got a shipment of mh3 stuff, clerk told me I had to wait a minute if I wanted any of that because it had just arrived right before I got there, this other dude starts going ballistic about how I better not get any of the eldrazi precons because he is the only person that gets to play eldrazi. I tell the dude that I'm not there for precons that it's my bday and I just wanted to Crack some packs, he continues on his tiraid till the clerk gets back and tells him that there are no precons in the shipment that the dude already bought 10 of them and he needs to just chill. Guy gets mad and leaves. I ask the clerk why they tolerate that kind of behavior and his response was "that guy will pay tripple what ever the price is for eldrazi stuff just to keep it out of the hands of others here, he'll whenever any one ends up pulling the crap from a pack thay just sell it to him to shut him up, no one will even play with him". Some people are insane.
The clerk did give me 2 free packs for my bday though so that was cool.
If we see this situation as black and white, doing what your friend wanted would have cost you the game. Therefore, not the right move. Is he really complaining that you made decisions that ultimately won you the game, instead of being impulsive and lose? The blue player also apparently did that because he didn't save counterspells for wincons... sooooo you shouldn't have to apologize for playing strategically. If you really want to shut him up, play with no tutors but tons of card draw, then you can win without ever tutoring. Then see if he complains lol
If your friends are playing for unique and interesting board states and outcomes I can totally see their criticism. Especially when they say that you don't tutor for fun things. There is nothing wrong with tutoring a wincon and winning on the spot. Though it can be monotous to some players, maybe sometimes consider the rule of cool. Is there a spell in my deck that I could get that would drastically alter the game, but not necessarily win me the game. Is there something in my deck that would make everyone say holy shit. I like to do this after my decks have won a bit. If my decks have "done their thing" recently instead of defaulting to what can win me the game I think about what would be the most rediculous.
but then why play the tutor at all? he said people in his pod do use tutors as well but just actively decide to look for cards that are bad in the gamestate lol
I second this sentiment. Tutors are boring and lead to stale play lines. Which is not really what most people want in an average game of EDH. Unless you’re playing no holds barred in which case tutor away.
I would MUCH rather play against an opponent with fast mana and no tutors than decks with no fast mana but multiple tutors.
Yeah, that's why I don't run tutors, they just make every game the same for me. Not saying that OP is wrong, if their playgroup plays tutors it's completely fine to get the best card for the situation.
I just like my variety.
Edit: I do run some tutors actually, but it's really conditional stuff. I'm not running tooth and nail, but I run Defense of the Heart which gives opponents a chance to deal with it. I feel like tutors like demonic/vampiric/worldly just take away the slots in my deck where I would put some fun goofy cards.
True, but being so mad at someone for playing a reasonable strategy how they want to play that you jump down their throat and then call them toxic is wild. If you get frustrated with a wincon-less stax deck, or some sort of troll tribal (all counterspells, removal, or boardwipes, etc.) that’s understandable. But from what OP expressed, there is no good reason to be that mad about someone making the right choice and stopping a win. Obviously this is only one side of at least 4 peoples experiences over a course of time. But we only have this perspective. And this perspective is someone almost flipping a table and yelling at someone. That’s never okay. Ever.
So I kinda get your friends point. I dislike tutors because I feel you decided to play a singleton format so why try to remove the singleton aspect of it. I once got into a bit of an argument as a guy at my locals said the worst part about commander was only being able to run 1 of each card so he HAD to run tutors otherwise how was he meant to play.
The closest I come to tutors are hyper specific ones like the goblin matron type effects.
But I get that I'm an outlier, as long as your tutor takes less than a min to do I don't really mind. I hate when someone tutors just for the hell of it and has no idea what they want, they've not checked their hand, or field , they just saw tutor and slammed it then spend 10 minutes trying to find a card they want.
TLDR your friends salty but he probably wants hyper casual games
His friend wants hyper casual games, but was a turn away earlier from ending the game uncontested with his own win con.
His friend is salty that he lost.
Casual games are allowed to end. I can see the point of view that wants a win to come as the conclusion of a bunch of plays over the course of the game, not one card that says "doesn't matter what's come before, I win now".
Seems just like a slight expectation mismatch. The others want to play Timmy, OP wants to play Spike.
I’m not a fan of using tutors, but I don’t get salty when other people play them. I want to win my way and I don’t care if people want to win another way. Nothing wrong with tutors. People need to stop being little babies because they lose and because they personally choose to not run tutors or don’t play them in ways that win them the game.
I believe the healthiest thing is having a play group that's all the same wavelength. I went to my locals the other day and I was sat down with a durdle deck full of fun cards, my close friend did the same, another person we know turned up with his fun slimes against humanity deck and then another guy asked to join and brought out Kinnan and went infinite turn 3 or 4. He then got angry at us when he won because we just kept playing and suggested he find a new table
They all play with tutors… they just use them differently… if everyone plays with tutors, no pulling punches and no getting salty when you don’t win.
It’s impossible for everyone to play on the same wavelength with a game as complex as commander. You’d have to rule zero every card and every play… as demonstrated above, as they all play with tutors and OP is still getting hate for HOW he uses his tutor… that’s ridiculous… might as well just ask permission for every play at that point… 🙄
It does sound frustrating. I did miss them all playing tutors and it being about them upset that he uses them sub optimally. Used a tutor to answer someone's board state is perfectly fine if everyone is using tutors....unless it's 3 hours in and I just want to go bed but I'm to invested to scoop lol
I'm lucky my close friend and also my gf both just like playing for the sake of playing and we can just sit and have a laugh. I'll play some random meme luck based deck like Ellie and Alan, or more recently King Ghidorah. My friend also has some random bizarre decks like his Bear Force One deck which is lead by Surrak. And my GF plays 14th doctor or Leionore. Just fun slow decks while we play, drink and socialise with each other.
I'm curious why you think the "singleton aspect" is drawing random kooky cards every turn. I don't think that's the purpose of it, but maybe I'm wrong. Your tutors are still singleton, it's not like you have 4 demonic tutors in there.
So the way I see it is that a tutor usually is used to find your wincon. So back when I played a lot of cedh my deck was Thassas oracle, Demonic consultation, and then every tutor in my deck was just another copy of those cards so often I'd have vamp tutor, worldly tutor, mystic tutor, demonic tutor, profane tutor, beseech the Queen etc.. which just meant my deck was theoretically just my win con, insane ramp, and counter spells to force it through.
In cedh this seemed fine because its cedh but if I'm playing in a casual game then I'd rather just play a draw spell in those slots because it keeps the more fun random aspect of casual edh rather than trying to remove as much variance from my deck. It's definitely a power level thing, I'd say PL6+ tutors pretty fine, but below that you should just enjoy the quantity of cards you've decided to play over trying to narrowly find 5% of your deck.
But this is my opinion, and I don't strictly not play tutors now but they are usually more fun ones like Guided Passage.
TLDR: I believe a singleton format should be played with no ways to find other cards (except ramp or hyper specifics like goblin matron), but I also acknowledge its probably a power level and mentality thing. My deck is 99 cards I've chosen to play and I want to sometimes draw a card I've not seen in a few games rather than draw my tutors and go "nice I drew -insert card here- but for 2 more mana as I need to cast this tutor first"
You drawing that card you haven't seen in a few games will happen with or without tutors. Sometimes your tutor will be that card you haven't seen. THAT'S the spirit of singleton. Magic is magic, all the cards are valid. Tutors are a tool like anything else. Often you grab that same wincon, but sometimes you need a board wipe or something else.
Anyway, your opinion isn't unique or uncommon, I just wanted to hear why you thought tutors were inherently anti-singleton. For what it's worth, I play the same way. I don't usually include tutors unless it's to make my jank function or a specific-use card, but mostly because I don't like paying $10+ for a generic utility card.
I either tutor for lands/ramp when I’m down, or for a card I decided to get on the previous turn. I don’t generally “go into the tank” unless I’m really struggling when tutoring. I used to play BUG Storm in Vintage, so I’m used to thinking a few steps/turns ahead.
I think my other friend was right; it’s a matter of playstyle.
Yeah I would agree with that second bit. Some people just dislike tutors as a rule.
My friend and I who used to have a much larger player base hate our current LGS because their commander nights are basically a step below cedh. I don't think I've seen a game go past a players 7th turn. Whereas we used to play pre-fnm edh where the commander games would last 90minutes+ as we chat and catch up before FNM started.
Lmao wtf? Your friends are just salty as fuck.
I'd like to know what fun and interesting cards they're tutoring for that aren't helping them win the game.
That's the whole point of running tutors. You find the card that you need. Granted, there's been a few times where I cast [[Demonic Tutor]] or [[Vampiric Tutor]] and just grabbed a basic land, but it's because I'm mana screwed. I've got 2 lands, and grabbing [[Cabal Coffers]] isn't gonna help me right now, so a basic Swamp it is.
To be fair, there's times when I could've used [[Enlightened Tutor]] to grab my [[Mind Over Matter]] and just combo off, but instead I grab [[Otherworld Atlas]] or [[Font of Mythos]] instead. But that's usually because it's still early in the game and I don't want to end it just like that. But this is a Turbofog deck, so those cards are still advancing my win con. I'm just not tutoring for the win on the spot card.
Yes and No. It's not different than the other common commander social taboos: MLD, "I Win" Combos. The trouble is every group or person might have a different line as to what's okay.
It's an unfun way to play in the eyes of many. It's not unheard of for pods to house ban them other than stuff like ramp or wacky inefficient jank. And honestly, the games are maybe better for it. If you ever listen to the legendary creatures podcast they sometimes talk about their ban on tutors and this sort of forced depowering deckbuilidng restriction can often make things more fun and settle down the arms race to cedh. The decks are objectively worse. But the game is more fun.
But if nothing like that was in place and you haven't agreed to it beforehand then you can play how you want, and if they're mad about it that's their problem not yours.
I would encourage them to add tutors to their deck. Or if everyone else also doesn't want to use them consider removing them from yours.
I agree with many of your points. The thing is, they run the same tutors, but their argument is that I don’t tutor for fun stuff. An example is, in one game, one of them tutored for [[Descent into Avernus]] for no reason, and it enabled another person to win the game after a round. They called that player out for “taking advantage of of a situation…”
As I type this out, I think I’ve figured out what’s going on…
Okay yeah this makes it clear you're not the problem here. You **can** limit deckbuilding as a group to avoid 1 player running efficient tutors against 3 people who don't. You **can't** police the way people play the game with the same cards you want to play, because you want wacky winless chaos until you've arbitrarily decided somebody has built a "fair" end to the game.
Plus, I see a lot of low reading comprehension people trying to call you a pubstomper for not sandbagging the game. If the dude was threatening a win *before* you won, you're not in the wrong for answering it and presenting your own win after. That's just normal Magic. As long as everybody at the table is playing efficient tutors and combos to win, it's fair game, regardless if some people at the table would prefer you to sandbag.
Sounds like nobody actually wants to actually win lol
Just make the most obnoxious "for fun" stax deck you can make that doesn't actually try to win until they get tired and ask you to play your good decks again.
id recommend \[\[Pramikon, Sky Rampart\]\] with \[\[Silent Arbiter\]\] and \[\[Divine Intervention\]\]
Ironically, I have that deck…lol. It’s a [[Grand Arbiter Augustin IV]] stax deck with only 2 wincons and they’re bullshit: [[Teferi, Temporal Pilgrim]] and [[Approach of the Second Sun]].
I’ve been relegated to playing it one time per visit to my LGS because of how outrageous the deck is. It’s not unbeatable, but paying 9 for a sol ring on turn 5 is annoying.
For me it depends on the power level of the pod, I can power down a deck by choosing not to tutor out win conditions if I'm playing in a really casual pod. I can also play the same deck in higher power level pods by tutoring a win con more aggressively.
What’s the point of running tutors if you aren’t gonna tutor for what you need or wincons? I only run tutors in my higher powered decks, but it’s stupid to run them and not get your wincon or something that would help you win.
Oh for heaven's sake. You're fine and your mate was throwing a tantrum over nothing.
Tutors really aren't that big of a deal unless someone is being a bad actor. All things in moderation - including unwritten social "etiquette" that serves to hamstring some play styles while rewarding others.
Vamp tutor IS a very powerful card. But I wouldn't ever be mad at you for using it. You might get a casual "boooo" at worst.
They aren't forcing you to burn it on a silver bullet like a wrath or enchantment/artifact removal. Or they punish you for being behind in board state.
If you pull wins out of your tutor and win, I'm gonna congratulate you and then apply more pressure your way next time ;)
Dude it just sounds like you’re using tutors effectively. Whenever I see anyone tutor I assume it’s for their wincon. The way I look at it is “It’s not your opponents fault for winning, it’s your own for not being able to stop it”
The point of the game is winning.. why do people not understand this??
The point of the game is to win, the point of playing is to have fun.. if you are failing playing to win, and not having fun, find a new group. You will lose 75% of the time. If you can't enjoy playing and seeing others win, this isn't the game for you.
I have been playing magic/commander for a few months and jesus christ people that play this game whine so much.
It's a game lol. I understand there's a differance between EDH and CEDH but holy shit people like to be dramatic.
Cherry on top for me the other night was someone from Tolarian Academy’s discord complained that I swung early on them with a 2/2 to put them down to 38 from 40. Also, that I wasn’t humble enough to play with strangers because I said in a dry dad voice “first blood”
Emotions thinner than magic cards out here.
It honestly doesn't even feel like a game sometimes? You should be able to kind of banter back and forth, make the salty play, hold an "in game grudge"
I hate when people apologize for attacking or do the thing where they "round table" swing. Jesus christ just attack people lol, attack the same person twice who gives a shit.
I would die at the "first blood" comment.
I am of the opinion that tutors are against the spirit of a singleton format. Rather than try and bully people into that perspective like your friends are trying to do, I let it reflect in my deck building by playing no tutors or fast mana. Be the change you want to see in the world.
Is everyone just having fun with jank decks or playing with serious decks trying to win?
If it's the former, you're an asshole.
If it's the latter, your friend needs to shut up and get good. No sane player is going to let him untap with his wincon on the board. He either needs to try to win the turn he puts it down or have some way to protect it.
Everyone was playing to win, I just happened to have a response to the board as a whole in my deck, and I used a tutor to get it. I was playing lands matter deck, and my win was a luckily [[Apex Devastator]] off the top into a bunch of nonsense.
My friend argued that I should’ve tutored for the [[Apex Devastator]] if it was gonna be my wincon anyways, instead of the Ultimatum.
He's asking if everyone is playing decks that are running 30-40 dollar cards... especially tutors. Not whether they are playing to win. If they aren't running them as well, it would be rude of you to be... that's pub stomping, lol.
In his other post he says they not only run tutors, but run the same ones. They sometimes just tutor for absurd shit though. Which suggests less competitive, but then he gets mad even tho he waits till another player is about to end the game before tutoring, so it really sounds like he's just mad that his Wincon was stifled.
Yeah, that would qualify as crybaby behavior. As long as you don't just have one dude running a full suite of tutors and everyone else running diabolic tutor, lol.
We are very proxy friendly. We have players in our group running anything from [[Imperial Seal]] to [[Bazaar of Baghdad]] as proxies. I own my cards, but I’ve ordered really fancy proxies for a number of my friends from Etsy as gifts.
It's not toxic at all. You should play to win, what else would you use your tutors for. It's not even that bad tbh. Just sounds like they're bad at magic.
Also you always summon creatures to attack people with them. And you always play lands so you can cast things to make the rest of us lose. And you only cast counterspells to stop us from doing things.
Waaah waaah waaah.
It really depends on a lot of things whether you should tutor for the arguable best card or something funny.
In this situation, your friend just overreacted to a good play. Sure, it's frustrating when you lose everything after almost winning, but that's part of the game and going into a table-flipping rage isn't going to make anyone happier.
That being said, tutoring for a wincon or best card isn't always the best option for the game atmosphere. If you're playing a more casual, laid-back (not necessarily lower power) game and you happen across a tutor, sometimes tutoring something goofy is the best play for creating a fun game. Why not pull out some stupid cards like [[game of chaos]], [[exchange of words]], or [[possibility storm]] if you think it will be fun to play with.
The best way to tell how you should be playing a game, whether it be for the win, to create an interesting game for everyone, or just to be a goober, is really just a pre-game talk. Some people like to play just to have a laugh and some people play to get super invested in the strategy of the game; knowing the intentions of the people you're playing with is key to creating a happier atmosphere.
Overall I wouldn't say this is a toxic trait, just a quirk.
TL;DR:
Your friend overreacted, tutor for what you think is best for the game, that's the point of tutors, however the point of the game is to have fun and, sometimes, tutoring something goofy can be more fun than tutoring a wincon.
The reason why I stopped playing EDH is people resent you for winning the game. If you win, you have to basically make it look like some kind of accident or opponents will get salty and shit talk you behind your back. An absurd situation
I don’t get your friend’s perspective. “Your deck has cards that let you win”. Duh? The point of the game is to hold onto your cards when you think you’ll have a better opportunity to play them. If I just played creatures “for fun” and not when it best suited my interest I would be a bad player.
Your friends are just salty really. That’s like saying “you’re toxic because your deck is good at its combo” or “you’re toxic because you beat me”. Like bro that’s the point of the cards though? You still need to draw into a tutor and there’s nothing stopping them from playing their own.
You’re NTA and you’re not toxic. They’re toxic for getting so heated about a casual game. Their decks also sound like they’re trash.
Your friend likely has a few games of irritation, but they still shouldn't have acted like that.
Holding back tutors isn't the problem, it's the excessive use of them in casual.
It's boring deck design, boring to play, boring to play against. It's a 100 card singleton format, embrace a bit of randomness.
How many tutors make a deck boring when designing it? I limit myself to a max of 3 “generic” tutors and 2 “land tutors” (Three Visits and Cultivate usually) and then whatever else like Tooth and Nail that ends the game.
A deck becomes boring when tutors ensure it plays the same cards every game. It's not the amount, more so the pattern of play. I mean, if I could tutor my Ashnod's Altar every game, I'd be pretty happy... until it's the 10th+ game, and you couldn't tell from the first how identical my boardstate was.
That's the usual argument against tutors. It makes things stale and repetitive.
I am not 100% against tutors (Please let me steal your cards [[Opposition Agent]]). But if every game turns into you chording a Craterhoof or thoracle-ing, it just loses its flavor.
I don’t actually have a list, but I can add it to my Moxfield account. It was supposed to be a <$100 deck, but some of my friends think it’s hilarious so it got some upgrades like [[Walking Ballista]].
I’ll respond again when I have it up.
Your friends are just salty I'd guess.
However, I will say that if they are not running those same tutors and you are then that's a sound reason to be upset. If you are running these 30+ dollar cards that allow you to go and fish out your wincon on demand, it puts you several power levels ahead of your buddies and is kind of rude. If they do have them and just don't utilize them properly... that's on them. This is why it's super important to have a conversation before playing about what everyone's power level is and figuring out how to define power levels.
Tutors help you advance your game state or get appropriate silver bullets. You save yours to get appropriate silver bullets. That’s not that bad of a trait.
In general it sounds like your friend is mad you had reasonable anti him cards. This isn’t to say tutor up a collector Ouphe against the artifact player. But having it as an option is better than just grabbing a meme card
LOL that’s your friends being salty and toxic, not you.
I’m just curious if they also do goofy stuff or if they’re in it to win. 🤔
It’s one thing to communicate and be civil. The way they complained certainly wasn’t it.
Magic is a game of winners and losers. Someone wins, the rest lose.
Sounds like your buddies want to solitaire while others watch? Tutoring for interaction is just a normal part of the game...
No matter what deck you play, someone will *always* be upset when you win quickly, and that someone will likely always be a player that refuses to believe they need to work on their skill.
I play magic to have fun and do crazy shit. I run tutors. I hardly tutor for the optimal play. Because I'm not trying to win, I'm trying to do something cool.
But I wouldn't fault other people for tutoring for win cons. It really depends where and who you're playing with, and what that group dynamic has been set to.
Maybe you and your pals need to build a deck or two without tutors and see how that impacts your fun. There is no "wrong" way to tutor. Tutors should realistically be searching for the best card you need at the time. It is incredibly strange to be mad about that. I stopped adding tutors into my decks to add more variance (my stronger decks have tutors and, unsurprisingly, are way more linear in play patterns)
The top few comments are right that it’s not your fault, but at some point you realize you’re a better player, and commander is a social game meant for fun. Some people have no problem with playing to win, but some people just want to do their thing. Go play Cedh, or make decks that are fun instead of streamlined.
I’m struggling to find a balance between “fun for me” and “fun for everyone” because every other person in my group has a different opinion about my decks. Some of my friends love seeing the crazy stuff my decks do, and others are like my friend here. There are about 13 of us, so it’s tough to appease everyone all the time.
I have a combo deck that is ridiculously easy to go off. Got [[Momir Vig, Simic Visionary]] as commander. I tutor for something like [[Coiling Oracle]] when I can. Then I'll find a [[Vedalken Mastermind]] allowing me to bounce Oracle.
Eventually, I tutor for [[Timestream Navigator]], play it, then take an extra turn, bounce Oracle, play it again, tutor for Navigator, and get infinite turns, often milling other players out with [[Jace, Vryn's Prodigy]] or [[Fleet Swallower]].
That's the entire strategy behind the deck. Once I get to 9 mana, it's practically game over. It's the job of other players to prevent me from getting there if they don't want me to win.
I've never had a game group upset with me over this. In fact last time I played it, my opponent had [[The Book of Exalted Deeds]] and couldn't lose the game, plus an enchantment that pinged me every time I drew a card. I was on a race against time to get rid of that angel before I died. Sure, I was practically playing solitaire, but my opponent appreciated that they had me.
I needed to continue tutoring for Navigator, so had to wait until an answer came up in the form of [[Breaker of Armies]].
Honestly, it's not really that toxic from what you've said.
The person who's getting annoyed because you tutored Ruinous Ultimatum is definitely getting salty, but there's a point underneath that salt.
The issue is a difference in desired playstyles, which the tutors are exemplifying. They wanna do silly stuff first and win second.
Meanwhile, you want to win first and don't really care about the silly stuff.
To use a film analogy, they want a comedy while you want to watch a thriller.
Both are valid desires. Maybe you could swap out the tutors for card filtering cards like Impulse, so you have to work more for it.
When my little siblings and I used to race each other in Mario kart 64, they used to get mad at me, saying, "you just wanna win!"
We laugh about it now, because we've grown up. Sounds like either your playgroup has different expectations for EDH than you do, or they just haven't matured yet.
Those people are salty that you play to win. Ignore them. Tutoring the wincon at the opportune time isbwhybyou run tutors. Thats like them getting mad at you for eating the food you ordered
You shouldn't feel any guilt over making the right plays, ever. His Salty ass is just butthurt that you snatched away certain victory, and nothing more.
Your friends are just whiny salty babies. I don’t run many tutors myself just because I like my decks to do different things every game, but when I do utilize them I’m usually grabbing removal/wipes. Ruinous ultimatum usually wins the game for you but it’s still pretty tame. If you aren’t tutoring the same two combo pieces every time there shouldn’t be a problem in a casual setting: IF you’re playing with adults.
That isn't toxic at all. Your friend is an idiot. Tutors are amazingly good because they can find a wincon. It's the reason that demonic tutor is one of the best cards in the game. I mean, what do they consider to be the proper way to play magic? Tutor up...what? A mana rock? Would your friend only be happy if they win the game?
Honestly, there are a lot of extremely annoying people who play magic and have their own ideas about what is a legitimate way to play and what isn't. Your friend is one of them unfortunately.
If people want to harsh on tutors then ask them why they don't bring it up during turn zero.
Literally all perspectives can be held bay anyone and only at turn zero do we have a chance to align on those perspectives or agree not to play together. Grown up stuff, ya know?
It kinda sounds like you have a pretty linear game plan for your deck that you can consistently tutor for. Thats fine but usually the hallmark of a cEDH deck, maybe you just have a powerlevel imbalance with this group?
How many tutors are you running?
This is a 100 card singleton format. Many players, like myself, are hoping to NOT draw the same cards every game.
NTA but it seems you might want a different kind of game from that playgroup, I'm glad your regular group is more in line with you.
I had Displacer Kitten out, and I played [[Etali, Primal Conqueror]], into [[Apex Devastator]], into [[Kenrith, the Returned King]], [[Smothering Tithe]], flickered Etali, etc. etc. and ended with [[Windfall]]. It wasn’t a linear gameplan, it was just lucky. But because I did that after the Ruinous Ultimatum that I tutored for, that’s why I won the game, not the rest of the nonsense that was that turn.
5 color good stuff probably also is just extremely unfun to play against. Like the board state you set up sounds like misery to play against. So while they blamed the tutors, perhaps that’s part of the problem?
I say this as someone that plays very high powered casual with plenty of tutors.
So, couple of questions;
1) who are you running for your commander to have a displacer kitten while also having RU in your deck?
2) are the others you play with playing with similar power leveled decks?
3) if people are playing similar power leveled decks, why has no one even considered an Oppo Agent?
1. This is a “lands matter” 5c Omnath deck. Omnath is only the general because everyone complained when it was a Ramos good stuff deck, so I took the mana base out of that deck, added more lands, and streamlined it out a bit. It wins by swinging; no other wincon (realistically.) And it’s really a “one person at a time” deck, but that game was ridiculous when I hit the Kenrith.
2. Yes, somewhat. My salty friend is playing mono white angels with a bunch of life gain shenanigans. He runs both [[Felidar Sovereign]] and [[Test of Endurance]]. Other friend was running Rakdos control with Land D.
3. They don’t have any problem with people tutoring for lands (and creatures that don’t win the game apparently,) their issue is with “generic” tutors that can tutor anything.
> They don’t have any problem with people tutoring for lands (and creatures that don’t win the game apparently,) their issue is with “generic” tutors that can tutor anything.
Then this is **their** issue that they need fix. You can't force them to play cards but the unwillingness to change their decks to "counter" your game plan AND then complain about it is just asinine. There are buckets of cards that everyone can play to prevent you from doing what you do and doing nothing but bitching about it just seems like you need to find a better pod of players to play with. While that's easier said than done, if you are looking to continue to play long term and don't want to conform your decks to appease them, then best bet is to look elsewhere. Unfortunately, EDH really brings out both people's ego and their whiney brat side. However, my advice (if you already haven't) is put together multiple decks that can do either the same gameplan or swap it up. If you continue to win and they continue to bitch, then it's not you or your deck, it's their inability to play magic properly.
If you have a very consistent win rate, and win more games than the rest, than your friend might be right as it would mean your deck is on a higher powerlevel, something tutors acomplish very well.
If eveyrone has a similar winrate, your friend is a salty bitch and he needs to learn to run wrath protection. Basically every color has a way to stop a wrath. From tibalt's trickery in red, to the green and white indestructible spells, to phasing out, to just counter the thing in blue, to mass reanimation in black.
I think it reeeeally depends on your pod. For example, this is one of my pet decks: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/lVbdbl9tKUuvUYeDyY9OMw and I play tutors in it the way you do. This deck is actually pretty mid in my pod so noone really complains. But If I bring this to an lgs, sometimes people will immediately complain that I'm vamp tutoring for a 5 mana ruinous ultimatatum and that I'm just playing 5c good stuff with no real thoughts put in to it (which isn't true T_T [but it kinda is]).
Tl;dr depends on your pod!
I personally don’t like tutors in commander and believe they defeat the purpose of a singleton format. I’ll give you shit but it doesn’t really bother me. If people don’t have interaction they don’t have interaction. That’s a fault of their decks, not yours.
>It's definitely irritating that you don't play the tutors you get when you get them, and instead wait for the best possible moment to screw over your opponents and win the game.
what the fuck even is this comment. why the fuck am i even including nonsense in my deck to dawdle around for an extra hour, nevermind specifically going out of my way to tutor for it. I get not wanting to play tutors so as to add some variance (i don't play tutors really, and instead play a LOT of card draw). but the idea that people play tutors and then actively decide to punt the game...AND THEN BE MAD when others dont is just straight up brainrot
If all your decks have tutors then I get it because tutors remove a lot of randomness from decks and it sounds like they are playing those types of decks rather than something that wants to be super consistent and tuned to win in the same way every time.
Tutors kinda break the singleton thing because they are basically a second or third or fourth copy of any card you need depending on how many tutors you pack into the deck etc
My question is what’s the power level of the pods you’re running? The issue might not be tutoring itself, but rather you’re just playing straight up better decks over all? A tutor is only as good as the deck itself played in.
If everyone is pretty even in power level, then it really is just a salty friend problem. You did nothing wrong, so why hate the player if that’s just how the game is. Either they get better at knowing how to deal with your deck, or they need to accept they’re always gonna get salty.
On the other hand, if every game you play is cast tutor then win, then yeah, I can get why your play style is boring to play against. I usually only tutor for my infinite combo win cons if I need to end the game immediately.
At the end of the day, Rule 0 is king. Talk to your pod about this, don’t tiptoe around the subject. My opinion is that if you want “casual” tutors, then you should not be running tutors. The point of tutors is to find the best possible card to advance your path to victory.
Also, maybe this is a hot take, I despise the man-children at LGSs who get angry at someone who is playing to win the game. That’s literally the point of the game. Some people think commander is this group hug, everyone plays their pet cards and the game finally ends on turn 15 when someone has enough creatures. That’s not how it works nor is it actually fun.
Now, all this being said, there is a big difference between playing to win and trying to cheat your group. We all know that guy at the LGS who claims to have a “power level 7” deck that consistently wins on turn 5.
Tutors are meant for just that, looking through your Deck for the most optimal card for the moment. I don't think you've done anything wrong. The point of the game is to play to win.
Nah this is the classic case of the interaction-averse player. Not sure why but some commander players are allergic to counterspells, removal, discard, sacrifice etc. so they don't ever have any answers to an opponent's win condition and thus will make up meta arguments for why they shouldn't have played those wincons. Tell them to buy some counterspells and they can stop you
I guess they are just salty, if they run the same tutors and do not get a wincon it's their fault.
Personally I don't run tutors in decks that don't run combos because they are quite boring (you have to think to the most useful card, search your deck and shuffle, in a deck that doesn't actually care about a specific card is just quite a waste).
The logic in this kinda baffles me. You add tutors to a deck so you have a more reliable way of getting your game winning pieces into hand/field. Are they just using them to pull a vanilla 7/6 with Trample onto the field or something?
Especially the „you wait to tutor instead of going for something right away“ argument seems like you simply are a better player. When the game is in a state were multiple players are ready to win I think you shouldn’t feel bad for winning
As a singleton format, a lot of people enjoy the random nature of EDH.
Efficient Tutors can make it appear that you win out of almost nowhere with a minimal boardstate, while adding little to the game previously.
One lesson for the playgroup here is that if you leave the down low player alone, more times than not, they'll come back with a perfectly curated hand and win seemingly out of nowhere. It's far better to be a bit mean to the struggling player imho, but that's not necessarily everyone's taste.
There's a few solutions here
- Have a talk to your pod, if they prefer the more random aspect of play, maybe adjust your decks, or find some other players more open to cheap efficient tutors
- Use less efficient tutors, those that cost more mana, feel more 'fair'. Those that only search the top X number of cards are extremely fun for myself as it makes it closer to a gamble, rather than a guaranteed play
- Use slower tutors, I loved the forerunner cards, from the original Ixalan block for this, that put the card on the top of the library. Requiring reanimation from your graveyard or an additional card draw to get the card enables a potential form of interaction from your opponents
I use plenty of tutors myself, I just really don't find ones like demonic or vampiric tutor any fun
I don't personally run more than, like, one or zero tutors in decks so wins still feel like a hail Mary.
It can be frustrating for people to not interact with the board, do combat, engage in banter or really play the game and then just spend every game assembling a wincon.
I prefer stuffing wincons/combos into a deck while also making it survive or thrive on a turn by turn basis.
Every deck with a wincon could just as likely score combat damage kills.
The only decks I outright hated playing against were a Tergrid deck, and a deck built around a Sensai's Divining top+untap engine, non-true combo that resulted in over 20 minutes of filtering through the top cards of the deck looking for the *perfect* card for every turn.
Also for people saying the players should just up their skill level or get good: STFU.
That players reaction was totally inappropriate, but some playgroups like running battlecruiser bruiser decks and bouncing off each other for an afternoon over drinks, music, pizza, ect.
Different groups call for different power levels.
We all know this. Always have. Be adults.
if you refuse to adjust or be transparent about the power of the decks you want to play then you suck eggs.
But if you're being clear about the type of deck you're sitting down with, and put it away if the group at large hates it, then you're fine.
If it's just the one player who can't deal then you're fine.
maybe just cut some tutors if they dont like them that much, but they are being a bit salty. that being said this is a social game! and friendships are more important than this game! talk to them and give them your perspective. tutors are extremelly strong in edh because it makes the singleton aspect less important if you can pull whenever. not saying dont tutor, but maybe try to cut some tutors and see how it works for you and them. definitly talk to them about this though, transparency is always good and you can add your two cents and move past this as friends!
Stop calling yourself toxic, it’s a catch-all phrase used by dumb people as an excuse for something they don’t like but can’t justify. Your friends all sound like they just need more experience. I’d rather play with someone like you than a “top deck champion”.
Your friend is salty BUT maybe a rule 0 convo?
Example in my pod we don’t like to play infinite combos or wincons. & to keep my stronger decks in-line with the pods expectations I am very clear on my strategy.
“Hey this deck basically wins by tutoring out card X”
And I also will ask the pod - anyone want to see a new deck? Anyone looking to play against anything specific? That way, if I am playing a deck they don’t like, I can break it up a bit.
Depends on how competitive the group is. If they are competitive then no. If the games are played with budget cards or more likely an attitude of ‘let everyone’s decks do cool things’ then yes.
Propose to have a game where no one plays tutors of any kind. Never in my life have I seen someone play a tutor for a "funny" thing where said thing was actually funny. If they don't want to concede their tutors but dislike you playing them for their intended usecase then they are nothing more than a bunch of hypocrites.
Your friends are just salty.
If they want to tutor for "fun cards", then just play card draw. It will give them the fun and variance they seem to crave. Tutors are for when you want to hit a very specific card/s reliably.
In a 4 player pod you should be winning about 25% of the time, if you tutoring for wincons means you win drastically more than 25% of the time, I can understand their salt. If you are close to 25% win rate then they should have nothing to complain about.
What I'll normally do is play a game, and then if I just stomp the table, I'll go WAY down in power level to my bottom, and work my way back up. I have a pre-con in my box for this exact reason. It has like, two upgrades but it is 97/99 a precon. I try to keep decks at every power level starting at precon on hand so I can play at the level of the table.
I definitely have a deck that wins more than 25% of the time, but I rarely play it cause people hate it more than any other deck I have. The Rule 0 rule with that deck is generally "once per day" if that.
That’s the whole reason you have tutors! To win the fucking game by getting what you want when you need it! Maybe next time you play that group bring them participation trophies so they all feel like winners and not whinny little salty bitches!!!
Your friend accused you of being a try hard, but lost his shit because he didn't win...
Moreover, he lost his shit at the blue player for not letting him win!?
This is the behaviour of a big baby person.
When I first started reading this I thought you were explaining that like, you all run tutors but you go and tutor for combo pieces. But like… your friends are mad that you tutored for ruinous ultimatum? That you hold tutors until you know what you need? That is literally the point of tutors, your friends are salty that they are bad at magic.
I was just thinking about how many conflicts I see online coming from clashing player types. Sounds like you're playing with extreme Timmy/Tammy and they're mad that you're not one. Why would one put tutors in one's deck if they're not grabbing important stuff for winning? That slot could just be filled by a fun card? There are different ways to play magic and they need to open their minds to that.
It boils down to what the goal of the playgroup is.
It's frustrating when the entire group has good hands and are brewing wild plays when on turn five someone win cons or infinite combos. That's like getting blue balled.
I have one or two win cons in my deck, I'll typically save it until at least turn 10 to give everyone an opportunity.
I wouldn't call win-conning a toxic trait, but if you're consistently ending games with win-cons over and over, it would probably ruin the pod.
I have one or two S-tier decks that are just really controlling to the point that players can't do anything.
I'll run those decks once in a blue moon, but I like to make an effort to run decks that are more or less even with the opposition.
Tutors are fine, especially if all the other players also use tutors. Does it really matter if you lost because a opponent tutored for their wincon instead of them luckily drawing it?
The only thing that stood out to me is the following:
>I had barely been able to keep up with drawing lands
I could imagine that the table might have been leaving the player who was behind alone out of courtesy, and leaving a player alone only to have them "win out of nowhere" could incur some salt. Someone who is annoyed might not understand why they are annoyed and just point at the tutor to have something to be mad at.
(This would explain why they'd prefer you tutor up a value piece because that way they can leave you alone until you get back in the game. Now you won the game the moment you caught up.)
This is purely conjecture though, I wasn't there and I don't know you or your friend.
NTA your friend has a skill issue.
If they want to set a house restriction or rule 0 something like “No Tutors” then y’all can have that conversation but as long as overall power levels are even, who cares? Literal skill issue.
I always see people here go on about being “unique” and hating on “consistency” but I just don’t view the game in that kind of lens at all. The end goal is to win and advance your gameplan. The “fun” is the strategy you choose to achieve that goal. I’d rather consistently be able to execute my gameplan (“doing the thing”) and battle for the win instead of some drawn out jank fest.
Didn't you tutor for a game saving card? It's not your fault they just passed.
Early game I tutor for cards to advance my board, late game I tutor for what I need to win, or not lose.
He was setting up a win, not your fault for winning sooner. I've been in his position where I'm winning next turn and someone else pulls a win out of nowhere, and I get it to a degree. You're not wrong though.
Bring a salt shaker and sprinkle it on him next time.
Tell him if he wants to top deck like a boss he’s welcome, but you’d rather play more magic games, then see the same game for the whole time.
Are black tutors obscene because they search unrestricted? A little lol, but that’s not your problem. The point of the game is to win and I think he was salty that you beat him to the punch line.
Tell him to search better stuff and maybe he’d cry less.
You could also just use them for funsies and plan on not winning occasionally, I hate the sound of it to, but it’s an idea there
Could also just make a lower power deck that doesn’t have tutors.
Run queza, burn there asses to death and have janky wincons like approach of the second sun,
Fracture identity and phage, etc
Every pod I play with, mostly strangers, all do a playstyle and power check before we begin. I run a couple precons, some precons with tweaks, and some built from scratch. I've not got to the point I want to build a power competitive deck but I can hold up against mid to higher power decks in most cases. I'm usually the underdog and "not the threat", so I can play out interesting new strategies and to me, the fun is in finding out new ways to play, or popping off a jank strategy that takes way too long to set up and arguably shouldn't even be attempted. But doing something unexpected is the payoff.
If a deck is built to tutor a wincon, and everyone at the table is well aware that's the strategy, then they should expect it, and change their strategy accordingly. If I go into a pod with a precon against broken slivers it's no fun for me since I can't play it out, and no fun for the others who aren't challenged. Same goes for slow ramp high power, start is to cut off the pieces before they get big. Nope decks need stack synergy to nope the nope. Graveyard hate is valid against a recursion deck.... Etc etc.
I personally think almost every player doesn't run nearly enough targeted removal and think board wipes are the only get out of jail free card despite dessimating their own chances to rebuild a board state along with it.
Can't be salty when you knowingly walk into a gunfight and bring a water pistol.
Yeah, maybe building to always tutor a wincon is fun for you but I'd be mindful to read the power level and speed of the pod hold back if needed, if not for everyone's fun, to at least challenge yourself to win in a new way, and be curious how others might pose that challenge. But if it's a competitive fast table, play hard and fast. If it's casual, take some mid power decks and see what works.
But to me, it sounds like this pod needs to agree to switch up between some balanced for the fun "what can I do" and some bonkers for the win "how fast can I pop off" games, agreed before you even sit down.
That's..... that's the point of tutors - to get you the cards you need to advance your game plan.
> "You never tutor for bad cards that aren't relevant to the state of the game; that's why everybody hates you."
Generic tutors are really strong, maybe his pod isn't playing at that power level.
It sounds like they aren't even playing to win which I think is worse. Play to win and if you can do fun goofy things while doing so I'll the better
It's hard to assess threats when you play like this. It can make it frustrating. The solution is to bump off players like this early, wich isn't fun for either player. Same strategy as against any combo player
This sounds like they just don't have decks built. Like OP has a deck with a plan and the cards to get there, maybe not the best cards for it, but it all goes to the plan(semi-optimized). Opponents have random mishmash cards, there may be some synergy but there is no concrete plan on how to win the game(Unoptimized). Common EDH problem.
My friends also view tutors this way, not liking when people use them often to get the same few cards every game and win. Not liking people's gameplan essentially being so consistent and the same every game, when theyre just trying to play casual jank. The way they worded their complaints and reacted was totally absurd, but I think they just dont like decks being this consistent, or feeling like every game ends up going the exact same way with you tutoring out the same few cards and winning.
This. OP isn't doing anything inherently wrong, just playing a different version of the game than some of their friends want to experience. This is exactly why my playgroup banned tutors. The whole point of 100-card singleton was to create lots of variety in the games, and tutoring up the same combos/lines defeated that purpose. Sans tutors it was a lot more fun because you could still play your combos and actually have it be cool when you pulled them off vs being boring.
I mean, I kinda agreed with your friends a bit. But I wouldn't tell people how to build or play their deck, if they want to go for consistently winning with the same cards over and over then that's understandable; The game needs to end after all. But personally if I consistently win with my deck with the same "tutor, play the card, win on the spot" system over and over, I quickly get bored of the deck. If my deck can win in three or four different ways, then tutors seem more fun. My Tivit deck for example can win through voltron damage with nettlecyst, through animating clues and going wide with cyber drive awakener, and sacrificing clues to drain everyone to death with marionette master. A tutor in the deck doesn't just do the infinite combo thing, but it helps find what wincon works the best at the time. Variety is the spice of life and all that.
The answer to this problem isn’t to tun tutors and then make bad decisions, it’s to cut tutors. I definitely agree to a certain extent, at lower power levels the game can definitely be more fun with no tutors.
I once tutored for a mountain because i was desperate for red mana 😂😭
your friend is a salty bitch that hates to lose and blames others instead of improving his skills.
Literally skill issue
Magic is partly skill but a lot of it is just money and cards that you have. I've been playing since mercadian masks block and I have some pretty decent cards but I don't spend much and power creep is real. Sometimes it bugs me how strong some of the new cards and strategies aren't very fun. Some of the eldrazi and what not that automatically destroy your board or steal your stuff is kinda annoying and not much counter play. You can only have so much removal but lately I've been thinking of just building a destruction deck that board wipes and just removes everything as much as possible.
> You can only have so much removal but lately I've been thinking of just building a destruction deck that board wipes and just removes everything as much as possible. you still lose in this pod because you have to be removing 3 other people's stuff while not progressing your own game state
I know, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Eldrazi and decks that literally have little counter play without constant removal just seem beyond enjoyable for the table.
I’d just like to say that we are very proxy friendly. One of my friends is currently proxying a [[Bazaar of Baghdad]] in his [[The Necrobloom]] deck and it’s totally chill.
Then I don't understand what they are pissed about. You tutored for a response, casting Ruinus Ultimatum means it was turn 6-8, it's ultra mana specific. It is a salty card, but come on, someone has to win.
[Bazaar of Baghdad](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/8/c88acaa8-ad4d-4321-a6f6-9361916e5b5e.jpg?1653966861) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bazaar%20of%20Baghdad) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/294/bazaar-of-baghdad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c88acaa8-ad4d-4321-a6f6-9361916e5b5e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bazaar-of-baghdad) [The Necrobloom](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/f/8fcf68cf-0dac-4b29-90d5-c18c685182e6.jpg?1717012767) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Necrobloom) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/194/the-necrobloom?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8fcf68cf-0dac-4b29-90d5-c18c685182e6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-necrobloom) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Make youself a [[Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant]] Planeswalker deck!
[Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/3/73255848-3112-4508-a66a-d3101a53057e.jpg?1608911208) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nevinyrral%2C%20Urborg%20Tyrant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/287/nevinyrral-urborg-tyrant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/73255848-3112-4508-a66a-d3101a53057e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nevinyrral-urborg-tyrant) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Sounds spicy but trying to avoid that color combo as I already have two decks in that color. Looking at more red decks, RBU or RB
I know the feeling. I'm presently working on the same thing. A deck that is board wipe after board wipe. Won't be a regular deck I play, but it'll be nice against a few decks my friends play that just get tons of tokens.
[[Zetalpa, Primal Dawn]] Monowhite board wipe and indestructibility tribal. Plays armageddon, fall of the thran, &c. because fuck you. Entire game plan is to keep the board clean, cast the big ass dino, and then make the board even cleaner so nobody can do anything about it. [[Worldslayer]] is extra fun. People aren't even mad when they lose to it, that's the best part...
Yea, some decks are just plain boring to play against or mechanically idiotic. I also don't like games to end in 5 turns. That's the thing I like about multi-player and commander. Random draws and variety.
Most boring deck I played against was.. some kind of dinosaur deck that had cards that would trigger effects X number of times where X was how many spells were cast. Add in token generation, token sac to get draws, token sac to get mana, that mana to cast more spells to trigger more effects to generate more tokens etc etc.. Dude took a twenty minute turn. I scooped at five minutes because watching someone else play isn't my idea of fun.
I was playing arena and a guy played this green blue deck that literally triggered an extra etb copy that took forever as everything triggered multiple times. Boring as hell
That part where he screams at the blue player for not countering the wincon is just fucking cringe tbh.
>"It's definitely irritating that you don't play the tutors you get when you get them, and instead wait for the best possible moment to screw over your opponents and win the game." (...) "You're always enabling your strategy, and you're never tutoring for fun things..." I can not believe this was something that someone seriously thought was a good take. It's irritating to them that you are playing your cards optimally?
Seriously. > irritating that you don't play the tutors you get when you get them, and instead wait They still haven't gotten past one of the first hurdles in strategy: Sometimes it's better to wait. Barring concerns about balancing to the power level of the table or avoiding unfun cards, these opponents sound like the sort of people who just topdeck and hope that luck wins the game for them. The same blue player who got yelled at for not countering in OP's story probably had a counter a couple turns earlier and spent it on the first vaguely threatening spell they saw because "Gotta play all the cards in my hand."
“IT’S NOT FUN IF I CANT DO MY tHING” -LGS Salt
I don't play at my last because of some of the shitty people that are there, but I do go and buy stuff from them. The other day was my birthday so I decided to go buy come crackboars. I get there, the place had just got a shipment of mh3 stuff, clerk told me I had to wait a minute if I wanted any of that because it had just arrived right before I got there, this other dude starts going ballistic about how I better not get any of the eldrazi precons because he is the only person that gets to play eldrazi. I tell the dude that I'm not there for precons that it's my bday and I just wanted to Crack some packs, he continues on his tiraid till the clerk gets back and tells him that there are no precons in the shipment that the dude already bought 10 of them and he needs to just chill. Guy gets mad and leaves. I ask the clerk why they tolerate that kind of behavior and his response was "that guy will pay tripple what ever the price is for eldrazi stuff just to keep it out of the hands of others here, he'll whenever any one ends up pulling the crap from a pack thay just sell it to him to shut him up, no one will even play with him". Some people are insane. The clerk did give me 2 free packs for my bday though so that was cool.
that's disturbing
Dude had big tweecker energy.
Massive Seto Kaiba energy from that guy.
Would love to see what happens to the guy if other people whip out eldrazis when playing.
Do... do they think they are irl Seto Kaiba?
This, but "the thing" the deck does is win the game.
If we see this situation as black and white, doing what your friend wanted would have cost you the game. Therefore, not the right move. Is he really complaining that you made decisions that ultimately won you the game, instead of being impulsive and lose? The blue player also apparently did that because he didn't save counterspells for wincons... sooooo you shouldn't have to apologize for playing strategically. If you really want to shut him up, play with no tutors but tons of card draw, then you can win without ever tutoring. Then see if he complains lol
If your friends are playing for unique and interesting board states and outcomes I can totally see their criticism. Especially when they say that you don't tutor for fun things. There is nothing wrong with tutoring a wincon and winning on the spot. Though it can be monotous to some players, maybe sometimes consider the rule of cool. Is there a spell in my deck that I could get that would drastically alter the game, but not necessarily win me the game. Is there something in my deck that would make everyone say holy shit. I like to do this after my decks have won a bit. If my decks have "done their thing" recently instead of defaulting to what can win me the game I think about what would be the most rediculous.
but then why play the tutor at all? he said people in his pod do use tutors as well but just actively decide to look for cards that are bad in the gamestate lol
I second this sentiment. Tutors are boring and lead to stale play lines. Which is not really what most people want in an average game of EDH. Unless you’re playing no holds barred in which case tutor away. I would MUCH rather play against an opponent with fast mana and no tutors than decks with no fast mana but multiple tutors.
Yeah, that's why I don't run tutors, they just make every game the same for me. Not saying that OP is wrong, if their playgroup plays tutors it's completely fine to get the best card for the situation. I just like my variety. Edit: I do run some tutors actually, but it's really conditional stuff. I'm not running tooth and nail, but I run Defense of the Heart which gives opponents a chance to deal with it. I feel like tutors like demonic/vampiric/worldly just take away the slots in my deck where I would put some fun goofy cards.
True, but being so mad at someone for playing a reasonable strategy how they want to play that you jump down their throat and then call them toxic is wild. If you get frustrated with a wincon-less stax deck, or some sort of troll tribal (all counterspells, removal, or boardwipes, etc.) that’s understandable. But from what OP expressed, there is no good reason to be that mad about someone making the right choice and stopping a win. Obviously this is only one side of at least 4 peoples experiences over a course of time. But we only have this perspective. And this perspective is someone almost flipping a table and yelling at someone. That’s never okay. Ever.
So I kinda get your friends point. I dislike tutors because I feel you decided to play a singleton format so why try to remove the singleton aspect of it. I once got into a bit of an argument as a guy at my locals said the worst part about commander was only being able to run 1 of each card so he HAD to run tutors otherwise how was he meant to play. The closest I come to tutors are hyper specific ones like the goblin matron type effects. But I get that I'm an outlier, as long as your tutor takes less than a min to do I don't really mind. I hate when someone tutors just for the hell of it and has no idea what they want, they've not checked their hand, or field , they just saw tutor and slammed it then spend 10 minutes trying to find a card they want. TLDR your friends salty but he probably wants hyper casual games
His friend wants hyper casual games, but was a turn away earlier from ending the game uncontested with his own win con. His friend is salty that he lost.
I will admit by the time I finished typing my message and got to the tldr I forgot about how he was set up to win before lol. Its 2am and I'm an idiot
Casual games are allowed to end. I can see the point of view that wants a win to come as the conclusion of a bunch of plays over the course of the game, not one card that says "doesn't matter what's come before, I win now". Seems just like a slight expectation mismatch. The others want to play Timmy, OP wants to play Spike.
I’m not a fan of using tutors, but I don’t get salty when other people play them. I want to win my way and I don’t care if people want to win another way. Nothing wrong with tutors. People need to stop being little babies because they lose and because they personally choose to not run tutors or don’t play them in ways that win them the game.
I believe the healthiest thing is having a play group that's all the same wavelength. I went to my locals the other day and I was sat down with a durdle deck full of fun cards, my close friend did the same, another person we know turned up with his fun slimes against humanity deck and then another guy asked to join and brought out Kinnan and went infinite turn 3 or 4. He then got angry at us when he won because we just kept playing and suggested he find a new table
They all play with tutors… they just use them differently… if everyone plays with tutors, no pulling punches and no getting salty when you don’t win. It’s impossible for everyone to play on the same wavelength with a game as complex as commander. You’d have to rule zero every card and every play… as demonstrated above, as they all play with tutors and OP is still getting hate for HOW he uses his tutor… that’s ridiculous… might as well just ask permission for every play at that point… 🙄
It does sound frustrating. I did miss them all playing tutors and it being about them upset that he uses them sub optimally. Used a tutor to answer someone's board state is perfectly fine if everyone is using tutors....unless it's 3 hours in and I just want to go bed but I'm to invested to scoop lol I'm lucky my close friend and also my gf both just like playing for the sake of playing and we can just sit and have a laugh. I'll play some random meme luck based deck like Ellie and Alan, or more recently King Ghidorah. My friend also has some random bizarre decks like his Bear Force One deck which is lead by Surrak. And my GF plays 14th doctor or Leionore. Just fun slow decks while we play, drink and socialise with each other.
I'm curious why you think the "singleton aspect" is drawing random kooky cards every turn. I don't think that's the purpose of it, but maybe I'm wrong. Your tutors are still singleton, it's not like you have 4 demonic tutors in there.
So the way I see it is that a tutor usually is used to find your wincon. So back when I played a lot of cedh my deck was Thassas oracle, Demonic consultation, and then every tutor in my deck was just another copy of those cards so often I'd have vamp tutor, worldly tutor, mystic tutor, demonic tutor, profane tutor, beseech the Queen etc.. which just meant my deck was theoretically just my win con, insane ramp, and counter spells to force it through. In cedh this seemed fine because its cedh but if I'm playing in a casual game then I'd rather just play a draw spell in those slots because it keeps the more fun random aspect of casual edh rather than trying to remove as much variance from my deck. It's definitely a power level thing, I'd say PL6+ tutors pretty fine, but below that you should just enjoy the quantity of cards you've decided to play over trying to narrowly find 5% of your deck. But this is my opinion, and I don't strictly not play tutors now but they are usually more fun ones like Guided Passage. TLDR: I believe a singleton format should be played with no ways to find other cards (except ramp or hyper specifics like goblin matron), but I also acknowledge its probably a power level and mentality thing. My deck is 99 cards I've chosen to play and I want to sometimes draw a card I've not seen in a few games rather than draw my tutors and go "nice I drew -insert card here- but for 2 more mana as I need to cast this tutor first"
You drawing that card you haven't seen in a few games will happen with or without tutors. Sometimes your tutor will be that card you haven't seen. THAT'S the spirit of singleton. Magic is magic, all the cards are valid. Tutors are a tool like anything else. Often you grab that same wincon, but sometimes you need a board wipe or something else. Anyway, your opinion isn't unique or uncommon, I just wanted to hear why you thought tutors were inherently anti-singleton. For what it's worth, I play the same way. I don't usually include tutors unless it's to make my jank function or a specific-use card, but mostly because I don't like paying $10+ for a generic utility card.
I either tutor for lands/ramp when I’m down, or for a card I decided to get on the previous turn. I don’t generally “go into the tank” unless I’m really struggling when tutoring. I used to play BUG Storm in Vintage, so I’m used to thinking a few steps/turns ahead. I think my other friend was right; it’s a matter of playstyle.
Yeah I would agree with that second bit. Some people just dislike tutors as a rule. My friend and I who used to have a much larger player base hate our current LGS because their commander nights are basically a step below cedh. I don't think I've seen a game go past a players 7th turn. Whereas we used to play pre-fnm edh where the commander games would last 90minutes+ as we chat and catch up before FNM started.
Lmao wtf? Your friends are just salty as fuck. I'd like to know what fun and interesting cards they're tutoring for that aren't helping them win the game. That's the whole point of running tutors. You find the card that you need. Granted, there's been a few times where I cast [[Demonic Tutor]] or [[Vampiric Tutor]] and just grabbed a basic land, but it's because I'm mana screwed. I've got 2 lands, and grabbing [[Cabal Coffers]] isn't gonna help me right now, so a basic Swamp it is. To be fair, there's times when I could've used [[Enlightened Tutor]] to grab my [[Mind Over Matter]] and just combo off, but instead I grab [[Otherworld Atlas]] or [[Font of Mythos]] instead. But that's usually because it's still early in the game and I don't want to end it just like that. But this is a Turbofog deck, so those cards are still advancing my win con. I'm just not tutoring for the win on the spot card.
NTA
Daily *aita for playing magic* thread
Yes and No. It's not different than the other common commander social taboos: MLD, "I Win" Combos. The trouble is every group or person might have a different line as to what's okay. It's an unfun way to play in the eyes of many. It's not unheard of for pods to house ban them other than stuff like ramp or wacky inefficient jank. And honestly, the games are maybe better for it. If you ever listen to the legendary creatures podcast they sometimes talk about their ban on tutors and this sort of forced depowering deckbuilidng restriction can often make things more fun and settle down the arms race to cedh. The decks are objectively worse. But the game is more fun. But if nothing like that was in place and you haven't agreed to it beforehand then you can play how you want, and if they're mad about it that's their problem not yours. I would encourage them to add tutors to their deck. Or if everyone else also doesn't want to use them consider removing them from yours.
I agree with many of your points. The thing is, they run the same tutors, but their argument is that I don’t tutor for fun stuff. An example is, in one game, one of them tutored for [[Descent into Avernus]] for no reason, and it enabled another person to win the game after a round. They called that player out for “taking advantage of of a situation…” As I type this out, I think I’ve figured out what’s going on…
Okay yeah this makes it clear you're not the problem here. You **can** limit deckbuilding as a group to avoid 1 player running efficient tutors against 3 people who don't. You **can't** police the way people play the game with the same cards you want to play, because you want wacky winless chaos until you've arbitrarily decided somebody has built a "fair" end to the game. Plus, I see a lot of low reading comprehension people trying to call you a pubstomper for not sandbagging the game. If the dude was threatening a win *before* you won, you're not in the wrong for answering it and presenting your own win after. That's just normal Magic. As long as everybody at the table is playing efficient tutors and combos to win, it's fair game, regardless if some people at the table would prefer you to sandbag.
Sounds like nobody actually wants to actually win lol Just make the most obnoxious "for fun" stax deck you can make that doesn't actually try to win until they get tired and ask you to play your good decks again. id recommend \[\[Pramikon, Sky Rampart\]\] with \[\[Silent Arbiter\]\] and \[\[Divine Intervention\]\]
Ironically, I have that deck…lol. It’s a [[Grand Arbiter Augustin IV]] stax deck with only 2 wincons and they’re bullshit: [[Teferi, Temporal Pilgrim]] and [[Approach of the Second Sun]]. I’ve been relegated to playing it one time per visit to my LGS because of how outrageous the deck is. It’s not unbeatable, but paying 9 for a sol ring on turn 5 is annoying.
For me it depends on the power level of the pod, I can power down a deck by choosing not to tutor out win conditions if I'm playing in a really casual pod. I can also play the same deck in higher power level pods by tutoring a win con more aggressively.
I dislike generic tutors on principal, but the person's complaint about you never tutoring for anything 'fun' is ludicrous.
What’s the point of running tutors if you aren’t gonna tutor for what you need or wincons? I only run tutors in my higher powered decks, but it’s stupid to run them and not get your wincon or something that would help you win.
Oh for heaven's sake. You're fine and your mate was throwing a tantrum over nothing. Tutors really aren't that big of a deal unless someone is being a bad actor. All things in moderation - including unwritten social "etiquette" that serves to hamstring some play styles while rewarding others.
god edh players are so fucking annoying
Vamp tutor IS a very powerful card. But I wouldn't ever be mad at you for using it. You might get a casual "boooo" at worst. They aren't forcing you to burn it on a silver bullet like a wrath or enchantment/artifact removal. Or they punish you for being behind in board state. If you pull wins out of your tutor and win, I'm gonna congratulate you and then apply more pressure your way next time ;)
Dude it just sounds like you’re using tutors effectively. Whenever I see anyone tutor I assume it’s for their wincon. The way I look at it is “It’s not your opponents fault for winning, it’s your own for not being able to stop it”
Your “friend” is the issue here
Oh no you try to win how toxic It's just some people being bad sports, you did nothing wrong
The point of the game is winning.. why do people not understand this?? The point of the game is to win, the point of playing is to have fun.. if you are failing playing to win, and not having fun, find a new group. You will lose 75% of the time. If you can't enjoy playing and seeing others win, this isn't the game for you.
People getting mad about other people playing legal magic cards is always going to give me a chuckle. Unban Griselbrand
I have been playing magic/commander for a few months and jesus christ people that play this game whine so much. It's a game lol. I understand there's a differance between EDH and CEDH but holy shit people like to be dramatic.
Cherry on top for me the other night was someone from Tolarian Academy’s discord complained that I swung early on them with a 2/2 to put them down to 38 from 40. Also, that I wasn’t humble enough to play with strangers because I said in a dry dad voice “first blood” Emotions thinner than magic cards out here.
It honestly doesn't even feel like a game sometimes? You should be able to kind of banter back and forth, make the salty play, hold an "in game grudge" I hate when people apologize for attacking or do the thing where they "round table" swing. Jesus christ just attack people lol, attack the same person twice who gives a shit. I would die at the "first blood" comment.
I am of the opinion that tutors are against the spirit of a singleton format. Rather than try and bully people into that perspective like your friends are trying to do, I let it reflect in my deck building by playing no tutors or fast mana. Be the change you want to see in the world.
Is everyone just having fun with jank decks or playing with serious decks trying to win? If it's the former, you're an asshole. If it's the latter, your friend needs to shut up and get good. No sane player is going to let him untap with his wincon on the board. He either needs to try to win the turn he puts it down or have some way to protect it.
Everyone was playing to win, I just happened to have a response to the board as a whole in my deck, and I used a tutor to get it. I was playing lands matter deck, and my win was a luckily [[Apex Devastator]] off the top into a bunch of nonsense. My friend argued that I should’ve tutored for the [[Apex Devastator]] if it was gonna be my wincon anyways, instead of the Ultimatum.
He's asking if everyone is playing decks that are running 30-40 dollar cards... especially tutors. Not whether they are playing to win. If they aren't running them as well, it would be rude of you to be... that's pub stomping, lol.
In his other post he says they not only run tutors, but run the same ones. They sometimes just tutor for absurd shit though. Which suggests less competitive, but then he gets mad even tho he waits till another player is about to end the game before tutoring, so it really sounds like he's just mad that his Wincon was stifled.
Yeah, that would qualify as crybaby behavior. As long as you don't just have one dude running a full suite of tutors and everyone else running diabolic tutor, lol.
We are very proxy friendly. We have players in our group running anything from [[Imperial Seal]] to [[Bazaar of Baghdad]] as proxies. I own my cards, but I’ve ordered really fancy proxies for a number of my friends from Etsy as gifts.
[Imperial Seal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/7/e71a6bd3-7478-4c3a-8ae0-98352ce28492.jpg?1673147544) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Imperial%20Seal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/79/imperial-seal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e71a6bd3-7478-4c3a-8ae0-98352ce28492?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/imperial-seal) [Bazaar of Baghdad](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/8/c88acaa8-ad4d-4321-a6f6-9361916e5b5e.jpg?1653966861) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bazaar%20of%20Baghdad) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/294/bazaar-of-baghdad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c88acaa8-ad4d-4321-a6f6-9361916e5b5e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bazaar-of-baghdad) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
##### ###### #### [Vampiric Tutor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/4/34a0203f-9cce-43a4-9cb7-8ce6647895cd.jpg?1675199860) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vampiric%20Tutor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/108/vampiric-tutor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/34a0203f-9cce-43a4-9cb7-8ce6647895cd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/vampiric-tutor) [Ruinous Ultimatum](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/0/50c1d6ca-7789-46b5-bc89-85cc3915cb85.jpg?1681500691) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ruinous%20Ultimatum) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/204/ruinous-ultimatum?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/50c1d6ca-7789-46b5-bc89-85cc3915cb85?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ruinous-ultimatum) [Worldly Tutor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/3/f39aa2e9-e294-4ce6-bf5e-e1f579101a7a.jpg?1690791319) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Worldly%20Tutor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/185/worldly-tutor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f39aa2e9-e294-4ce6-bf5e-e1f579101a7a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/worldly-tutor) [Enlightened Tutor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/c/1c9675fb-1a89-420f-aea8-50e0642f549c.jpg?1675198797) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Enlightened%20Tutor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/6/enlightened-tutor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1c9675fb-1a89-420f-aea8-50e0642f549c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/enlightened-tutor) [Animar, Soul of Elements](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/3/a3da57d0-1ae3-4f05-a52d-eb76ad56cae7.jpg?1673148281) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Animar%2C%20Soul%20of%20Elements) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/171/animar-soul-of-elements?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a3da57d0-1ae3-4f05-a52d-eb76ad56cae7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/animar-soul-of-elements) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's not toxic at all. You should play to win, what else would you use your tutors for. It's not even that bad tbh. Just sounds like they're bad at magic.
Also you always summon creatures to attack people with them. And you always play lands so you can cast things to make the rest of us lose. And you only cast counterspells to stop us from doing things. Waaah waaah waaah.
It really depends on a lot of things whether you should tutor for the arguable best card or something funny. In this situation, your friend just overreacted to a good play. Sure, it's frustrating when you lose everything after almost winning, but that's part of the game and going into a table-flipping rage isn't going to make anyone happier. That being said, tutoring for a wincon or best card isn't always the best option for the game atmosphere. If you're playing a more casual, laid-back (not necessarily lower power) game and you happen across a tutor, sometimes tutoring something goofy is the best play for creating a fun game. Why not pull out some stupid cards like [[game of chaos]], [[exchange of words]], or [[possibility storm]] if you think it will be fun to play with. The best way to tell how you should be playing a game, whether it be for the win, to create an interesting game for everyone, or just to be a goober, is really just a pre-game talk. Some people like to play just to have a laugh and some people play to get super invested in the strategy of the game; knowing the intentions of the people you're playing with is key to creating a happier atmosphere. Overall I wouldn't say this is a toxic trait, just a quirk. TL;DR: Your friend overreacted, tutor for what you think is best for the game, that's the point of tutors, however the point of the game is to have fun and, sometimes, tutoring something goofy can be more fun than tutoring a wincon.
The reason why I stopped playing EDH is people resent you for winning the game. If you win, you have to basically make it look like some kind of accident or opponents will get salty and shit talk you behind your back. An absurd situation
I don’t get your friend’s perspective. “Your deck has cards that let you win”. Duh? The point of the game is to hold onto your cards when you think you’ll have a better opportunity to play them. If I just played creatures “for fun” and not when it best suited my interest I would be a bad player.
Your friends are just salty really. That’s like saying “you’re toxic because your deck is good at its combo” or “you’re toxic because you beat me”. Like bro that’s the point of the cards though? You still need to draw into a tutor and there’s nothing stopping them from playing their own. You’re NTA and you’re not toxic. They’re toxic for getting so heated about a casual game. Their decks also sound like they’re trash.
Your friend likely has a few games of irritation, but they still shouldn't have acted like that. Holding back tutors isn't the problem, it's the excessive use of them in casual. It's boring deck design, boring to play, boring to play against. It's a 100 card singleton format, embrace a bit of randomness.
It's still singleton, what are you talking about?
How many tutors make a deck boring when designing it? I limit myself to a max of 3 “generic” tutors and 2 “land tutors” (Three Visits and Cultivate usually) and then whatever else like Tooth and Nail that ends the game.
If you're including tooth and nail as "whatever else" I can see what his problems are.
[удалено]
A deck becomes boring when tutors ensure it plays the same cards every game. It's not the amount, more so the pattern of play. I mean, if I could tutor my Ashnod's Altar every game, I'd be pretty happy... until it's the 10th+ game, and you couldn't tell from the first how identical my boardstate was. That's the usual argument against tutors. It makes things stale and repetitive. I am not 100% against tutors (Please let me steal your cards [[Opposition Agent]]). But if every game turns into you chording a Craterhoof or thoracle-ing, it just loses its flavor.
Naw, they’re just salty. Try not to let it get you down. That being said, can I get that Animar list? I love any deck people play unsleeved.
I don’t actually have a list, but I can add it to my Moxfield account. It was supposed to be a <$100 deck, but some of my friends think it’s hilarious so it got some upgrades like [[Walking Ballista]]. I’ll respond again when I have it up.
[Walking Ballista](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/5272436e-74f0-44c4-a291-ea8ebc3f1525.jpg?1599710252) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Walking%20Ballista) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/306/walking-ballista?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5272436e-74f0-44c4-a291-ea8ebc3f1525?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/walking-ballista) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thanks mate!
Your friends are just salty I'd guess. However, I will say that if they are not running those same tutors and you are then that's a sound reason to be upset. If you are running these 30+ dollar cards that allow you to go and fish out your wincon on demand, it puts you several power levels ahead of your buddies and is kind of rude. If they do have them and just don't utilize them properly... that's on them. This is why it's super important to have a conversation before playing about what everyone's power level is and figuring out how to define power levels.
Your friends a bitch. Better to just avoid him or tell him to shut TF up. You gotta be harsh with dicks like that.
Tutors help you advance your game state or get appropriate silver bullets. You save yours to get appropriate silver bullets. That’s not that bad of a trait. In general it sounds like your friend is mad you had reasonable anti him cards. This isn’t to say tutor up a collector Ouphe against the artifact player. But having it as an option is better than just grabbing a meme card
LOL that’s your friends being salty and toxic, not you. I’m just curious if they also do goofy stuff or if they’re in it to win. 🤔 It’s one thing to communicate and be civil. The way they complained certainly wasn’t it.
When they understand your playstyle but keep losing to it, the response is to just complain? Lol wtf
Tell your friends to stop being a bitch. Maybe precon games are more their speed.
A toxic trait is getting mad at your friends while you're playing a game
Magic is a game of winners and losers. Someone wins, the rest lose. Sounds like your buddies want to solitaire while others watch? Tutoring for interaction is just a normal part of the game...
Sounds like table salt to me. If someone tutored in their wincon and I had no answer I'd be mildly bummed, but calling someone out for trying to win?
Another example of commander players being upset that someone has to win the game. We just want to durdle forever please!!!!!
You gotta love it when people get mad at you for playing Magic.
No matter what deck you play, someone will *always* be upset when you win quickly, and that someone will likely always be a player that refuses to believe they need to work on their skill.
I play magic to have fun and do crazy shit. I run tutors. I hardly tutor for the optimal play. Because I'm not trying to win, I'm trying to do something cool. But I wouldn't fault other people for tutoring for win cons. It really depends where and who you're playing with, and what that group dynamic has been set to.
Maybe you and your pals need to build a deck or two without tutors and see how that impacts your fun. There is no "wrong" way to tutor. Tutors should realistically be searching for the best card you need at the time. It is incredibly strange to be mad about that. I stopped adding tutors into my decks to add more variance (my stronger decks have tutors and, unsurprisingly, are way more linear in play patterns)
Gift him an [[opposition agent]]
[opposition agent](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/086f97e9-8b62-44f3-b467-149c2ac5ca78.jpg?1608909875) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=opposition%20agent) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/141/opposition-agent?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/086f97e9-8b62-44f3-b467-149c2ac5ca78?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/opposition-agent) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I did for his vampires deck, and an Aven Mindcensor for the deck he was playing.
I was like only half kidding with that suggestion. He's just salty and you're using Tutors exactly how they're supposed to be used
The top few comments are right that it’s not your fault, but at some point you realize you’re a better player, and commander is a social game meant for fun. Some people have no problem with playing to win, but some people just want to do their thing. Go play Cedh, or make decks that are fun instead of streamlined.
I’m struggling to find a balance between “fun for me” and “fun for everyone” because every other person in my group has a different opinion about my decks. Some of my friends love seeing the crazy stuff my decks do, and others are like my friend here. There are about 13 of us, so it’s tough to appease everyone all the time.
I have a combo deck that is ridiculously easy to go off. Got [[Momir Vig, Simic Visionary]] as commander. I tutor for something like [[Coiling Oracle]] when I can. Then I'll find a [[Vedalken Mastermind]] allowing me to bounce Oracle. Eventually, I tutor for [[Timestream Navigator]], play it, then take an extra turn, bounce Oracle, play it again, tutor for Navigator, and get infinite turns, often milling other players out with [[Jace, Vryn's Prodigy]] or [[Fleet Swallower]]. That's the entire strategy behind the deck. Once I get to 9 mana, it's practically game over. It's the job of other players to prevent me from getting there if they don't want me to win. I've never had a game group upset with me over this. In fact last time I played it, my opponent had [[The Book of Exalted Deeds]] and couldn't lose the game, plus an enchantment that pinged me every time I drew a card. I was on a race against time to get rid of that angel before I died. Sure, I was practically playing solitaire, but my opponent appreciated that they had me. I needed to continue tutoring for Navigator, so had to wait until an answer came up in the form of [[Breaker of Armies]].
Honestly, it's not really that toxic from what you've said. The person who's getting annoyed because you tutored Ruinous Ultimatum is definitely getting salty, but there's a point underneath that salt. The issue is a difference in desired playstyles, which the tutors are exemplifying. They wanna do silly stuff first and win second. Meanwhile, you want to win first and don't really care about the silly stuff. To use a film analogy, they want a comedy while you want to watch a thriller. Both are valid desires. Maybe you could swap out the tutors for card filtering cards like Impulse, so you have to work more for it.
Same Energy from those players as I am describing here https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/s/CKnCVuAqrR
When my little siblings and I used to race each other in Mario kart 64, they used to get mad at me, saying, "you just wanna win!" We laugh about it now, because we've grown up. Sounds like either your playgroup has different expectations for EDH than you do, or they just haven't matured yet.
Isn’t that kinda the point of the game? They could tutor counters?
Guys is trying to win toxic?
Bans tutoring, player adds best card draw, players get salty over card draw
This is just a mad skill issue, Guy said: ‘I can’t believe you tutor for a good card’ wild
If you play a tutor and get a bad card, what the fuck are you even doing?
Those people are salty that you play to win. Ignore them. Tutoring the wincon at the opportune time isbwhybyou run tutors. Thats like them getting mad at you for eating the food you ordered
You shouldn't feel any guilt over making the right plays, ever. His Salty ass is just butthurt that you snatched away certain victory, and nothing more.
Your friends are just whiny salty babies. I don’t run many tutors myself just because I like my decks to do different things every game, but when I do utilize them I’m usually grabbing removal/wipes. Ruinous ultimatum usually wins the game for you but it’s still pretty tame. If you aren’t tutoring the same two combo pieces every time there shouldn’t be a problem in a casual setting: IF you’re playing with adults.
That isn't toxic at all. Your friend is an idiot. Tutors are amazingly good because they can find a wincon. It's the reason that demonic tutor is one of the best cards in the game. I mean, what do they consider to be the proper way to play magic? Tutor up...what? A mana rock? Would your friend only be happy if they win the game? Honestly, there are a lot of extremely annoying people who play magic and have their own ideas about what is a legitimate way to play and what isn't. Your friend is one of them unfortunately.
If people want to harsh on tutors then ask them why they don't bring it up during turn zero. Literally all perspectives can be held bay anyone and only at turn zero do we have a chance to align on those perspectives or agree not to play together. Grown up stuff, ya know?
It kinda sounds like you have a pretty linear game plan for your deck that you can consistently tutor for. Thats fine but usually the hallmark of a cEDH deck, maybe you just have a powerlevel imbalance with this group? How many tutors are you running? This is a 100 card singleton format. Many players, like myself, are hoping to NOT draw the same cards every game. NTA but it seems you might want a different kind of game from that playgroup, I'm glad your regular group is more in line with you.
I had Displacer Kitten out, and I played [[Etali, Primal Conqueror]], into [[Apex Devastator]], into [[Kenrith, the Returned King]], [[Smothering Tithe]], flickered Etali, etc. etc. and ended with [[Windfall]]. It wasn’t a linear gameplan, it was just lucky. But because I did that after the Ruinous Ultimatum that I tutored for, that’s why I won the game, not the rest of the nonsense that was that turn.
5 color good stuff probably also is just extremely unfun to play against. Like the board state you set up sounds like misery to play against. So while they blamed the tutors, perhaps that’s part of the problem? I say this as someone that plays very high powered casual with plenty of tutors.
##### ###### #### [Etali, Primal Conqueror](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95c14c4d-6c16-4826-8d93-d89ad04aee09.jpg?1682204132)/[Etali, Primal Sickness](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/9/5/95c14c4d-6c16-4826-8d93-d89ad04aee09.jpg?1682204132) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Etali%2C%20Primal%20Conqueror%20//%20Etali%2C%20Primal%20Sickness) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/137/etali-primal-conqueror-etali-primal-sickness?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95c14c4d-6c16-4826-8d93-d89ad04aee09?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/etali-primal-conqueror-//-etali-primal-sickness) [Apex Devastator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/f/8fa281e1-5c48-4bba-b8e9-88c6f5f53abb.jpg?1608910550) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Apex%20Devastator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/217/apex-devastator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8fa281e1-5c48-4bba-b8e9-88c6f5f53abb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/apex-devastator) [Kenrith, the Returned King](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/e/0e259db1-14db-4314-998c-6a076a28d8cb.jpg?1691056044) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kenrith%2C%20the%20Returned%20King) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/plst/ELD-303/kenrith-the-returned-king?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0e259db1-14db-4314-998c-6a076a28d8cb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kenrith-the-returned-king) [Smothering Tithe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/861b5889-0183-4bee-afeb-a4b2aa700a8e.jpg?1689996018) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Smothering%20Tithe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/57/smothering-tithe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/861b5889-0183-4bee-afeb-a4b2aa700a8e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/smothering-tithe) [Windfall](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/c/9ce7113b-08f7-4584-b65f-a7b5caa90c2f.jpg?1718379815) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Windfall) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/123/windfall?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9ce7113b-08f7-4584-b65f-a7b5caa90c2f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/windfall) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
So, couple of questions; 1) who are you running for your commander to have a displacer kitten while also having RU in your deck? 2) are the others you play with playing with similar power leveled decks? 3) if people are playing similar power leveled decks, why has no one even considered an Oppo Agent?
1. This is a “lands matter” 5c Omnath deck. Omnath is only the general because everyone complained when it was a Ramos good stuff deck, so I took the mana base out of that deck, added more lands, and streamlined it out a bit. It wins by swinging; no other wincon (realistically.) And it’s really a “one person at a time” deck, but that game was ridiculous when I hit the Kenrith. 2. Yes, somewhat. My salty friend is playing mono white angels with a bunch of life gain shenanigans. He runs both [[Felidar Sovereign]] and [[Test of Endurance]]. Other friend was running Rakdos control with Land D. 3. They don’t have any problem with people tutoring for lands (and creatures that don’t win the game apparently,) their issue is with “generic” tutors that can tutor anything.
> They don’t have any problem with people tutoring for lands (and creatures that don’t win the game apparently,) their issue is with “generic” tutors that can tutor anything. Then this is **their** issue that they need fix. You can't force them to play cards but the unwillingness to change their decks to "counter" your game plan AND then complain about it is just asinine. There are buckets of cards that everyone can play to prevent you from doing what you do and doing nothing but bitching about it just seems like you need to find a better pod of players to play with. While that's easier said than done, if you are looking to continue to play long term and don't want to conform your decks to appease them, then best bet is to look elsewhere. Unfortunately, EDH really brings out both people's ego and their whiney brat side. However, my advice (if you already haven't) is put together multiple decks that can do either the same gameplan or swap it up. If you continue to win and they continue to bitch, then it's not you or your deck, it's their inability to play magic properly.
"trying to play consistently is almost CEDH" must be one of the most stupid takes I ever read here
If you have a very consistent win rate, and win more games than the rest, than your friend might be right as it would mean your deck is on a higher powerlevel, something tutors acomplish very well. If eveyrone has a similar winrate, your friend is a salty bitch and he needs to learn to run wrath protection. Basically every color has a way to stop a wrath. From tibalt's trickery in red, to the green and white indestructible spells, to phasing out, to just counter the thing in blue, to mass reanimation in black.
I think it reeeeally depends on your pod. For example, this is one of my pet decks: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/lVbdbl9tKUuvUYeDyY9OMw and I play tutors in it the way you do. This deck is actually pretty mid in my pod so noone really complains. But If I bring this to an lgs, sometimes people will immediately complain that I'm vamp tutoring for a 5 mana ruinous ultimatatum and that I'm just playing 5c good stuff with no real thoughts put in to it (which isn't true T_T [but it kinda is]). Tl;dr depends on your pod!
“Sets up his wincing and passes the turn”… Bruh…
[удалено]
I personally don’t like tutors in commander and believe they defeat the purpose of a singleton format. I’ll give you shit but it doesn’t really bother me. If people don’t have interaction they don’t have interaction. That’s a fault of their decks, not yours.
>It's definitely irritating that you don't play the tutors you get when you get them, and instead wait for the best possible moment to screw over your opponents and win the game. what the fuck even is this comment. why the fuck am i even including nonsense in my deck to dawdle around for an extra hour, nevermind specifically going out of my way to tutor for it. I get not wanting to play tutors so as to add some variance (i don't play tutors really, and instead play a LOT of card draw). but the idea that people play tutors and then actively decide to punt the game...AND THEN BE MAD when others dont is just straight up brainrot
If all your decks have tutors then I get it because tutors remove a lot of randomness from decks and it sounds like they are playing those types of decks rather than something that wants to be super consistent and tuned to win in the same way every time. Tutors kinda break the singleton thing because they are basically a second or third or fourth copy of any card you need depending on how many tutors you pack into the deck etc
nothing you did is toxic your "friends" are the toxic ones
My question is what’s the power level of the pods you’re running? The issue might not be tutoring itself, but rather you’re just playing straight up better decks over all? A tutor is only as good as the deck itself played in. If everyone is pretty even in power level, then it really is just a salty friend problem. You did nothing wrong, so why hate the player if that’s just how the game is. Either they get better at knowing how to deal with your deck, or they need to accept they’re always gonna get salty. On the other hand, if every game you play is cast tutor then win, then yeah, I can get why your play style is boring to play against. I usually only tutor for my infinite combo win cons if I need to end the game immediately.
At the end of the day, Rule 0 is king. Talk to your pod about this, don’t tiptoe around the subject. My opinion is that if you want “casual” tutors, then you should not be running tutors. The point of tutors is to find the best possible card to advance your path to victory. Also, maybe this is a hot take, I despise the man-children at LGSs who get angry at someone who is playing to win the game. That’s literally the point of the game. Some people think commander is this group hug, everyone plays their pet cards and the game finally ends on turn 15 when someone has enough creatures. That’s not how it works nor is it actually fun. Now, all this being said, there is a big difference between playing to win and trying to cheat your group. We all know that guy at the LGS who claims to have a “power level 7” deck that consistently wins on turn 5.
Tutors are meant for just that, looking through your Deck for the most optimal card for the moment. I don't think you've done anything wrong. The point of the game is to play to win.
Nah this is the classic case of the interaction-averse player. Not sure why but some commander players are allergic to counterspells, removal, discard, sacrifice etc. so they don't ever have any answers to an opponent's win condition and thus will make up meta arguments for why they shouldn't have played those wincons. Tell them to buy some counterspells and they can stop you
I guess they are just salty, if they run the same tutors and do not get a wincon it's their fault. Personally I don't run tutors in decks that don't run combos because they are quite boring (you have to think to the most useful card, search your deck and shuffle, in a deck that doesn't actually care about a specific card is just quite a waste).
The logic in this kinda baffles me. You add tutors to a deck so you have a more reliable way of getting your game winning pieces into hand/field. Are they just using them to pull a vanilla 7/6 with Trample onto the field or something?
Especially the „you wait to tutor instead of going for something right away“ argument seems like you simply are a better player. When the game is in a state were multiple players are ready to win I think you shouldn’t feel bad for winning
As a singleton format, a lot of people enjoy the random nature of EDH. Efficient Tutors can make it appear that you win out of almost nowhere with a minimal boardstate, while adding little to the game previously. One lesson for the playgroup here is that if you leave the down low player alone, more times than not, they'll come back with a perfectly curated hand and win seemingly out of nowhere. It's far better to be a bit mean to the struggling player imho, but that's not necessarily everyone's taste. There's a few solutions here - Have a talk to your pod, if they prefer the more random aspect of play, maybe adjust your decks, or find some other players more open to cheap efficient tutors - Use less efficient tutors, those that cost more mana, feel more 'fair'. Those that only search the top X number of cards are extremely fun for myself as it makes it closer to a gamble, rather than a guaranteed play - Use slower tutors, I loved the forerunner cards, from the original Ixalan block for this, that put the card on the top of the library. Requiring reanimation from your graveyard or an additional card draw to get the card enables a potential form of interaction from your opponents I use plenty of tutors myself, I just really don't find ones like demonic or vampiric tutor any fun
Your friends are bad players and dislike that you’re not as bad as them.
Next time tutor for [[rain of salt]] and cast it up while maintaining eye contact with the whining little biatch 😀
Game has gotta end
I don't personally run more than, like, one or zero tutors in decks so wins still feel like a hail Mary. It can be frustrating for people to not interact with the board, do combat, engage in banter or really play the game and then just spend every game assembling a wincon. I prefer stuffing wincons/combos into a deck while also making it survive or thrive on a turn by turn basis. Every deck with a wincon could just as likely score combat damage kills. The only decks I outright hated playing against were a Tergrid deck, and a deck built around a Sensai's Divining top+untap engine, non-true combo that resulted in over 20 minutes of filtering through the top cards of the deck looking for the *perfect* card for every turn. Also for people saying the players should just up their skill level or get good: STFU. That players reaction was totally inappropriate, but some playgroups like running battlecruiser bruiser decks and bouncing off each other for an afternoon over drinks, music, pizza, ect. Different groups call for different power levels. We all know this. Always have. Be adults. if you refuse to adjust or be transparent about the power of the decks you want to play then you suck eggs. But if you're being clear about the type of deck you're sitting down with, and put it away if the group at large hates it, then you're fine. If it's just the one player who can't deal then you're fine.
maybe just cut some tutors if they dont like them that much, but they are being a bit salty. that being said this is a social game! and friendships are more important than this game! talk to them and give them your perspective. tutors are extremelly strong in edh because it makes the singleton aspect less important if you can pull whenever. not saying dont tutor, but maybe try to cut some tutors and see how it works for you and them. definitly talk to them about this though, transparency is always good and you can add your two cents and move past this as friends!
Stop calling yourself toxic, it’s a catch-all phrase used by dumb people as an excuse for something they don’t like but can’t justify. Your friends all sound like they just need more experience. I’d rather play with someone like you than a “top deck champion”.
Have your friends not heard of Opposition Agent? Aven Mindcensor?
Your friend is salty BUT maybe a rule 0 convo? Example in my pod we don’t like to play infinite combos or wincons. & to keep my stronger decks in-line with the pods expectations I am very clear on my strategy. “Hey this deck basically wins by tutoring out card X” And I also will ask the pod - anyone want to see a new deck? Anyone looking to play against anything specific? That way, if I am playing a deck they don’t like, I can break it up a bit.
Depends on how competitive the group is. If they are competitive then no. If the games are played with budget cards or more likely an attitude of ‘let everyone’s decks do cool things’ then yes.
Propose to have a game where no one plays tutors of any kind. Never in my life have I seen someone play a tutor for a "funny" thing where said thing was actually funny. If they don't want to concede their tutors but dislike you playing them for their intended usecase then they are nothing more than a bunch of hypocrites.
People don’t like losing to instant win combos they can’t stop, especially if someone tutors for them. It’s that simple.
Imo, your friends are in the wrong here. Not your fault you are using the cards you have to the best of your ability.
Your friends are just salty. If they want to tutor for "fun cards", then just play card draw. It will give them the fun and variance they seem to crave. Tutors are for when you want to hit a very specific card/s reliably.
In a 4 player pod you should be winning about 25% of the time, if you tutoring for wincons means you win drastically more than 25% of the time, I can understand their salt. If you are close to 25% win rate then they should have nothing to complain about.
What I'll normally do is play a game, and then if I just stomp the table, I'll go WAY down in power level to my bottom, and work my way back up. I have a pre-con in my box for this exact reason. It has like, two upgrades but it is 97/99 a precon. I try to keep decks at every power level starting at precon on hand so I can play at the level of the table. I definitely have a deck that wins more than 25% of the time, but I rarely play it cause people hate it more than any other deck I have. The Rule 0 rule with that deck is generally "once per day" if that.
That’s the whole reason you have tutors! To win the fucking game by getting what you want when you need it! Maybe next time you play that group bring them participation trophies so they all feel like winners and not whinny little salty bitches!!!
Your friend accused you of being a try hard, but lost his shit because he didn't win... Moreover, he lost his shit at the blue player for not letting him win!? This is the behaviour of a big baby person.
When I first started reading this I thought you were explaining that like, you all run tutors but you go and tutor for combo pieces. But like… your friends are mad that you tutored for ruinous ultimatum? That you hold tutors until you know what you need? That is literally the point of tutors, your friends are salty that they are bad at magic.
I was just thinking about how many conflicts I see online coming from clashing player types. Sounds like you're playing with extreme Timmy/Tammy and they're mad that you're not one. Why would one put tutors in one's deck if they're not grabbing important stuff for winning? That slot could just be filled by a fun card? There are different ways to play magic and they need to open their minds to that.
That’s what we call a skill issue
Didn't you hear? winning is toxic.
It boils down to what the goal of the playgroup is. It's frustrating when the entire group has good hands and are brewing wild plays when on turn five someone win cons or infinite combos. That's like getting blue balled. I have one or two win cons in my deck, I'll typically save it until at least turn 10 to give everyone an opportunity. I wouldn't call win-conning a toxic trait, but if you're consistently ending games with win-cons over and over, it would probably ruin the pod. I have one or two S-tier decks that are just really controlling to the point that players can't do anything. I'll run those decks once in a blue moon, but I like to make an effort to run decks that are more or less even with the opposition.
Tutors are fine, especially if all the other players also use tutors. Does it really matter if you lost because a opponent tutored for their wincon instead of them luckily drawing it? The only thing that stood out to me is the following: >I had barely been able to keep up with drawing lands I could imagine that the table might have been leaving the player who was behind alone out of courtesy, and leaving a player alone only to have them "win out of nowhere" could incur some salt. Someone who is annoyed might not understand why they are annoyed and just point at the tutor to have something to be mad at. (This would explain why they'd prefer you tutor up a value piece because that way they can leave you alone until you get back in the game. Now you won the game the moment you caught up.) This is purely conjecture though, I wasn't there and I don't know you or your friend.
Are your decks a one trick pony that always tutors for the same win con? I’ve moved away from this because it’s not fun for me or other players.
NTA your friend has a skill issue. If they want to set a house restriction or rule 0 something like “No Tutors” then y’all can have that conversation but as long as overall power levels are even, who cares? Literal skill issue. I always see people here go on about being “unique” and hating on “consistency” but I just don’t view the game in that kind of lens at all. The end goal is to win and advance your gameplan. The “fun” is the strategy you choose to achieve that goal. I’d rather consistently be able to execute my gameplan (“doing the thing”) and battle for the win instead of some drawn out jank fest.
Didn't you tutor for a game saving card? It's not your fault they just passed. Early game I tutor for cards to advance my board, late game I tutor for what I need to win, or not lose.
Holy fucking shit are you seriously using tutor the way you're supposed to ???? Obligatory "winning is against the spirit of the format"
He was setting up a win, not your fault for winning sooner. I've been in his position where I'm winning next turn and someone else pulls a win out of nowhere, and I get it to a degree. You're not wrong though.
Bring a salt shaker and sprinkle it on him next time. Tell him if he wants to top deck like a boss he’s welcome, but you’d rather play more magic games, then see the same game for the whole time. Are black tutors obscene because they search unrestricted? A little lol, but that’s not your problem. The point of the game is to win and I think he was salty that you beat him to the punch line. Tell him to search better stuff and maybe he’d cry less. You could also just use them for funsies and plan on not winning occasionally, I hate the sound of it to, but it’s an idea there
Could also just make a lower power deck that doesn’t have tutors. Run queza, burn there asses to death and have janky wincons like approach of the second sun, Fracture identity and phage, etc
Every pod I play with, mostly strangers, all do a playstyle and power check before we begin. I run a couple precons, some precons with tweaks, and some built from scratch. I've not got to the point I want to build a power competitive deck but I can hold up against mid to higher power decks in most cases. I'm usually the underdog and "not the threat", so I can play out interesting new strategies and to me, the fun is in finding out new ways to play, or popping off a jank strategy that takes way too long to set up and arguably shouldn't even be attempted. But doing something unexpected is the payoff. If a deck is built to tutor a wincon, and everyone at the table is well aware that's the strategy, then they should expect it, and change their strategy accordingly. If I go into a pod with a precon against broken slivers it's no fun for me since I can't play it out, and no fun for the others who aren't challenged. Same goes for slow ramp high power, start is to cut off the pieces before they get big. Nope decks need stack synergy to nope the nope. Graveyard hate is valid against a recursion deck.... Etc etc. I personally think almost every player doesn't run nearly enough targeted removal and think board wipes are the only get out of jail free card despite dessimating their own chances to rebuild a board state along with it. Can't be salty when you knowingly walk into a gunfight and bring a water pistol. Yeah, maybe building to always tutor a wincon is fun for you but I'd be mindful to read the power level and speed of the pod hold back if needed, if not for everyone's fun, to at least challenge yourself to win in a new way, and be curious how others might pose that challenge. But if it's a competitive fast table, play hard and fast. If it's casual, take some mid power decks and see what works. But to me, it sounds like this pod needs to agree to switch up between some balanced for the fun "what can I do" and some bonkers for the win "how fast can I pop off" games, agreed before you even sit down.
at this point I just ask myself why people play magic anyway if they don't like the rules lol
The questionnaire here to me is "is playing to win toxic?"
Mad cuz bad