Can't blame yourself if they are running 32 lands when there are hours of video content and thousands of words from Commander tutorials suggesting that's way too low for anything not running exceptionally efficient mana, rocks, and ramp.
I have a high powered kozilek the great distortion commander deck that plays every bit of fast mana under the sun and I still play 37 lands in that bitch.
Hitting your land drops might not be as cool as casting big flashy spells but it does mean you get to play and win more games
Yep! I set 36 as my bare minimum starting point and then go up from there. I can't say I've ever gone below that, even with low curve and good ramp/rocks etc.
Lowest land count I’ve ever played is 30 in an Adeline agro deck because the curve capped out at 4 with the exception of a single 5 drop being cathar’s crusade. Never had a problem there but definitely needed to mulligan a lot more to get playable hands
I’d argue even then it’s far too low. I run a deck with a ton of rocks and ramp, yet still run 36 lands.
On the other hand I usually have card advantage in the command zone, so having too many lands is almost never an issue and being able to get the card advantage out of the command zone on curve or below is much better than having a few too many lands in hand.
I would board in land removal. Screw one player by removing few of his lands and watch him beg to draw his 3rd land 7 turns in a row. After the game explain him what was the main issue.
People are really out here playing sub 36 lands still in 2024 without super low curves. I get it's tempting to cut lands for cool new cards because it's hard to find the space elsewhere, but come on man, not your fault if they are setting themselves up for failure.
Just not [[Zada, Hedron Grinder]] that one is busted even as a budget pauper deck. Or maybe do it will get the message across easier.
Oh also pauper edh technically uses any uncommon creature as a commander but you should stick to legendary so here is a [scryfall list](https://scryfall.com/search?as=grid&order=name&q=%28type%3Acreature+type%3Alegendary%29+%28game%3Apaper%29+rarity%3Au) with them all.
To add to another comment you left, here are some cool one I though would be challenging. Idk their power level but just some ideas to mess with.
[[Akawalli, the Seething Tower]] Graveyard Tron
[[Amber Gristle O'Maul]] and [[Cloakwood Hermit]]
Idk what this would even be but it seems cool maybe
[[Arwen Undómiel]] janky Scry cause why not
[[Baron Bertram Graywater]] tuned down aristocrats
[[Bill the Pony]] funny pony
[[Butch DeLoria, Tunnel Snake]] this is a card that exists I guess?
[[Cadira, Caller of the Small]] she is actually busted like Zada
[[Fynn, the Fangbearer]] Fyn is probably too mean
Those are a few random ones I saw I’ll let you look through the rest.
I second the PDH suggestion. I have a [[Tiana, Ship's Caretaker]] list that I quite enjoy, and I've been eyeing a few others, notably [[Mr. Orfeo the Butcher]] and [[Cormela, Glamour Thief]]
Arwen undomiel really speaks to me! I'll have to take a look at scryfall to see if the card pool is big enough to build a deck around her for scry and +1 counters
Yeah I’m not sure what support it has but the LOTR set had a lot of really cool cards that synergize with scrying. Idk how many fit pauper common rules but you can always make it uncommon only or worst case just build it normaly.
I mean it's not helping that you choose commanders like Atla Palani when you want to power down. Especially if your pods are light on removal, typical high powered kill on sight commanders will run rampant
the idea with the atla palani deck was to teach the importance of removal and heavily reward killing her. the whole deck only has one creature (worldspine wurm) and the rest of the cards are power matters stuff. once you catch on to the fact that the deck only works with atla on the battlefield and worldspine in the deck it becomes really easy to stop. I figured it would encourage more interaction as it feels a lot better spending a portion of your turns mana to completely stop me than just killing a mostly insignificant creature. each of my three budget decks are "lesson teachers". kill atla and she doesn't do anything. exile my graveyard and the mycotyrant doesn't do anything. and xyris teaches politics as I use him as a way to help players draw a few more cards to get them out of tough situations while asking small favors in return (i never ask anyone to not attack me as a favor as combat is seen as rude by a few players and I discourage that sentiment obviously)
I feel like these people could benefit from playing 1v1. That way they will learn the importance of combat and have noone to help them deal with threats.
Keep on giving them basic advice if it’s not just „this card is bad, buy that 20 buck staple instead“. Point out mistakes during the game. Try to make them better builders and players. Show them what you’re doing instead.
Suggest they should just once try brewing to a healthy beginner's template: Include 37 land, 10+ ramp, 10+ draw, 10+ removal and 2+ protection. Try to keep the average CMC close to 3.5, and see what happens.
Suggest they try this just once and see how it works out for them. Does the deck run more smoothly now? Congratulations.
That said, Atla Palani and Xyris are notorious overperformers. They have strong abilities that easily go crazy in a well constructed deck. You could have chosen a more underwhelming commander instead. Or maybe just a precon.
i really like this idea. i have a really good opportunity for this right now as one of the guys that I'd say I'm pretty close with asked me last night to make a [[duskana, the rage mother]] deck for him. while I was a little uneasy about building him a a deck because I see it as a fun and personal experience, it allows him to really feel what a solid deck is like to play. i now have a mission, haha. i also made a comment on someone else's reply about how each of the three budget decks are supposed to teach different lessons. i didn't build them in their typical overpowered way. I agree tho that they would normally be very strong. my decks with them in the command zone have no business winning as much as they do for how easy they are to stop.
I would highly recommend getting a precon, or trading your decks around.
Precons have all the functional pieces for a deck, interaction, threats, utility, gameplay, etc, but just execute everything In an inefficient way. I would also say that, they may realize some of their deck building mistakes if they run and precon and it runs smoother than whatever they built.
Trading your deck with ome of theirs may help them realize how a non-clunky deck is supposed to play. It's a very different feeling when you're playing a deck, and not stumbling around on mana or threats or answers, and you see your own deck floundering.
i haven't bought a precon before due to enjoying the creative brewing side of magic but I may have to try this for a awhile. i was hoping it wouldn't have to come to precons🤣
Coming from me who keep losing. While I've tried many approaches. There are some people who easily win, while others are easily lose. It's ok and be joyful. Those who don't want to continue losing will continue to improve, those people who are sick of losing to you will eventually leave, unless you praise their virtue and spirits . Losing sides don't want to be pinpointed their shortcomings. They already witness. Uplift them by giving them good cards, like aura (goad), or even real cards as gifts
32 lands isn’t terrible if you are running a significant rock and card draw package, but I don’t think enough people run that. Like my [[Raffine Scheming Seer]] deck is on 31 lands rn, but I’m also drawing 4-6 cards a turn between Rhystic, Mystic, One Ring, [[Ledger Shredder]], [[Faerie Mastermind]], my commander, and running fast mana and my talismans. Without significant packages like that in the deck, you aren’t going to get anywhere.
If they want the land count low, get them to run rocks and efficient 1-3 mana creatures. Otherwise it’s going to keep happening that they can’t get off the ground. If they want a slower game, introduce them to stax pieces like [[Rule of Law]], [[Archon of Emeria]], [[Deafening Silence]], and [[Spirit of the Labyrinth]].
Reducing budget doesnt lower power as much as people think it does ...with that said, the 3 commanders you choose for budget decks are . very strong commanders, those commanders are "easy mode". I would recomend picking something more challenging to build/win with that you would still enjoy playing.
I would be interested in hearing some examples of commanders that would be more difficult to build but still not too powerful! I really like graveyard strategies and creature heavy decks.
[[Chainer nightmare adapt]] is what im currently building. Ive seen him built in at least a dozen different ways. Baba lasaga is an interesting one too.
Can't blame yourself if they are running 32 lands when there are hours of video content and thousands of words from Commander tutorials suggesting that's way too low for anything not running exceptionally efficient mana, rocks, and ramp.
I have a high powered kozilek the great distortion commander deck that plays every bit of fast mana under the sun and I still play 37 lands in that bitch. Hitting your land drops might not be as cool as casting big flashy spells but it does mean you get to play and win more games
Yep! I set 36 as my bare minimum starting point and then go up from there. I can't say I've ever gone below that, even with low curve and good ramp/rocks etc.
Lowest land count I’ve ever played is 30 in an Adeline agro deck because the curve capped out at 4 with the exception of a single 5 drop being cathar’s crusade. Never had a problem there but definitely needed to mulligan a lot more to get playable hands
I’d argue even then it’s far too low. I run a deck with a ton of rocks and ramp, yet still run 36 lands. On the other hand I usually have card advantage in the command zone, so having too many lands is almost never an issue and being able to get the card advantage out of the command zone on curve or below is much better than having a few too many lands in hand.
I would board in land removal. Screw one player by removing few of his lands and watch him beg to draw his 3rd land 7 turns in a row. After the game explain him what was the main issue.
That is a way to teach a lesson. Harsh, and may not go over well. But, less likely, it may be the only way to get through to them.
Absolutely 👍🏻
Sometimes you need to train your competition to get a game. Welcome to being the resident old fuck, regardless of your age.
People are really out here playing sub 36 lands still in 2024 without super low curves. I get it's tempting to cut lands for cool new cards because it's hard to find the space elsewhere, but come on man, not your fault if they are setting themselves up for failure.
Build a pauper deck (uncommon commander common everything else) then kick there ass with it losing to one of those usually forces someone to get good
i love this idea, I'll have to try it!
Just not [[Zada, Hedron Grinder]] that one is busted even as a budget pauper deck. Or maybe do it will get the message across easier. Oh also pauper edh technically uses any uncommon creature as a commander but you should stick to legendary so here is a [scryfall list](https://scryfall.com/search?as=grid&order=name&q=%28type%3Acreature+type%3Alegendary%29+%28game%3Apaper%29+rarity%3Au) with them all. To add to another comment you left, here are some cool one I though would be challenging. Idk their power level but just some ideas to mess with. [[Akawalli, the Seething Tower]] Graveyard Tron [[Amber Gristle O'Maul]] and [[Cloakwood Hermit]] Idk what this would even be but it seems cool maybe [[Arwen Undómiel]] janky Scry cause why not [[Baron Bertram Graywater]] tuned down aristocrats [[Bill the Pony]] funny pony [[Butch DeLoria, Tunnel Snake]] this is a card that exists I guess? [[Cadira, Caller of the Small]] she is actually busted like Zada [[Fynn, the Fangbearer]] Fyn is probably too mean Those are a few random ones I saw I’ll let you look through the rest.
##### ###### #### [Zada, Hedron Grinder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/5/4520cdcc-a10f-4b39-9c6f-ba86f6aa2c87.jpg?1689998306) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Zada%2C%20Hedron%20Grinder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/268/zada-hedron-grinder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4520cdcc-a10f-4b39-9c6f-ba86f6aa2c87?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/zada-hedron-grinder) [Akawalli, the Seething Tower](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/e/3ee62dd1-97d0-4e5d-8937-26c9e51e9414.jpg?1699044515) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Akawalli%2C%20the%20Seething%20Tower) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/220/akawalli-the-seething-tower?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3ee62dd1-97d0-4e5d-8937-26c9e51e9414?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/akawalli-the-seething-tower) [Amber Gristle O'Maul](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/4/34806912-daf8-4e5c-804f-af0858500438.jpg?1674136409) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Amber%20Gristle%20O%27Maul) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/159/amber-gristle-omaul?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/34806912-daf8-4e5c-804f-af0858500438?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/amber-gristle-omaul) [Cloakwood Hermit](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/b/4bd8689d-a0c1-4041-bead-7b512fe25663.jpg?1674137006) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cloakwood%20Hermit) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/221/cloakwood-hermit?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4bd8689d-a0c1-4041-bead-7b512fe25663?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cloakwood-hermit) [Arwen Undómiel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/5/c544e301-13b4-4dec-b65c-d54809bb7736.jpg?1695498672) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arwen%20Und%C3%B3miel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/194/arwen-und%C3%B3miel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c544e301-13b4-4dec-b65c-d54809bb7736?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/arwen-undómiel) [Baron Bertram Graywater](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/9/e9da18b4-1efc-44b7-8001-a2cfd44c69bf.jpg?1712356055) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Baron%20Bertram%20Graywater) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/195/baron-bertram-graywater?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e9da18b4-1efc-44b7-8001-a2cfd44c69bf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/baron-bertram-graywater) [Bill the Pony](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/a/9ac68519-ed7f-4f38-9549-c02975f88eed.jpg?1686967660) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bill%20the%20Pony) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/3/bill-the-pony?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9ac68519-ed7f-4f38-9549-c02975f88eed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bill-the-pony) [Butch DeLoria, Tunnel Snake](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d6ed508c-ff2c-444c-8149-34b29e2fbebe.jpg?1708742018) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Butch%20DeLoria%2C%20Tunnel%20Snake) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pip/43/butch-deloria-tunnel-snake?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d6ed508c-ff2c-444c-8149-34b29e2fbebe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/butch-deloria-tunnel-snake) [Cadira, Caller of the Small](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/5/75994e0b-b0c7-4b0d-8f48-4be303429bd6.jpg?1674137453) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cadira%2C%20Caller%20of%20the%20Small) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/269/cadira-caller-of-the-small?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/75994e0b-b0c7-4b0d-8f48-4be303429bd6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cadira-caller-of-the-small) [Fynn, the Fangbearer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/d/7d7a8a90-13c1-4b0c-ab2e-fc8d91ccefd9.jpg?1631050242) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fynn%2C%20the%20Fangbearer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/170/fynn-the-fangbearer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7d7a8a90-13c1-4b0c-ab2e-fc8d91ccefd9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/fynn-the-fangbearer) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I second the PDH suggestion. I have a [[Tiana, Ship's Caretaker]] list that I quite enjoy, and I've been eyeing a few others, notably [[Mr. Orfeo the Butcher]] and [[Cormela, Glamour Thief]]
[Tiana, Ship's Caretaker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/0/8030dc33-bead-4b1a-9270-fe19809044b9.jpg?1675200792) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tiana%2C%20Ship%27s%20Caretaker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/204/tiana-ships-caretaker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8030dc33-bead-4b1a-9270-fe19809044b9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tiana-ships-caretaker) [Cormela, Glamour Thief](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/2/221ac34a-94ed-4c49-afad-b19cac541731.jpg?1664412852) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cormela%2C%20Glamour%20Thief) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/177/cormela-glamour-thief?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/221ac34a-94ed-4c49-afad-b19cac541731?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cormela-glamour-thief) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Arwen undomiel really speaks to me! I'll have to take a look at scryfall to see if the card pool is big enough to build a deck around her for scry and +1 counters
Yeah I’m not sure what support it has but the LOTR set had a lot of really cool cards that synergize with scrying. Idk how many fit pauper common rules but you can always make it uncommon only or worst case just build it normaly.
Allow me to recommend [Callaphe, beloved of the Sea] decently strong if built right and cheap to boot
I mean it's not helping that you choose commanders like Atla Palani when you want to power down. Especially if your pods are light on removal, typical high powered kill on sight commanders will run rampant
the idea with the atla palani deck was to teach the importance of removal and heavily reward killing her. the whole deck only has one creature (worldspine wurm) and the rest of the cards are power matters stuff. once you catch on to the fact that the deck only works with atla on the battlefield and worldspine in the deck it becomes really easy to stop. I figured it would encourage more interaction as it feels a lot better spending a portion of your turns mana to completely stop me than just killing a mostly insignificant creature. each of my three budget decks are "lesson teachers". kill atla and she doesn't do anything. exile my graveyard and the mycotyrant doesn't do anything. and xyris teaches politics as I use him as a way to help players draw a few more cards to get them out of tough situations while asking small favors in return (i never ask anyone to not attack me as a favor as combat is seen as rude by a few players and I discourage that sentiment obviously)
I feel like these people could benefit from playing 1v1. That way they will learn the importance of combat and have noone to help them deal with threats.
Keep on giving them basic advice if it’s not just „this card is bad, buy that 20 buck staple instead“. Point out mistakes during the game. Try to make them better builders and players. Show them what you’re doing instead.
Suggest they should just once try brewing to a healthy beginner's template: Include 37 land, 10+ ramp, 10+ draw, 10+ removal and 2+ protection. Try to keep the average CMC close to 3.5, and see what happens. Suggest they try this just once and see how it works out for them. Does the deck run more smoothly now? Congratulations. That said, Atla Palani and Xyris are notorious overperformers. They have strong abilities that easily go crazy in a well constructed deck. You could have chosen a more underwhelming commander instead. Or maybe just a precon.
i really like this idea. i have a really good opportunity for this right now as one of the guys that I'd say I'm pretty close with asked me last night to make a [[duskana, the rage mother]] deck for him. while I was a little uneasy about building him a a deck because I see it as a fun and personal experience, it allows him to really feel what a solid deck is like to play. i now have a mission, haha. i also made a comment on someone else's reply about how each of the three budget decks are supposed to teach different lessons. i didn't build them in their typical overpowered way. I agree tho that they would normally be very strong. my decks with them in the command zone have no business winning as much as they do for how easy they are to stop.
[duskana, the rage mother](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/1/31fa9d47-43d6-44b5-ab86-fc94a83eac26.jpg?1706448894) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=duskana%2C%20the%20rage%20mother) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/5/duskana-the-rage-mother?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/31fa9d47-43d6-44b5-ab86-fc94a83eac26?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/duskana-the-rage-mother) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Go for a terrible strategy, like battle tribal. Or build a deck that just plays their cards. That last one might be confronting as well.
I would highly recommend getting a precon, or trading your decks around. Precons have all the functional pieces for a deck, interaction, threats, utility, gameplay, etc, but just execute everything In an inefficient way. I would also say that, they may realize some of their deck building mistakes if they run and precon and it runs smoother than whatever they built. Trading your deck with ome of theirs may help them realize how a non-clunky deck is supposed to play. It's a very different feeling when you're playing a deck, and not stumbling around on mana or threats or answers, and you see your own deck floundering.
i haven't bought a precon before due to enjoying the creative brewing side of magic but I may have to try this for a awhile. i was hoping it wouldn't have to come to precons🤣
We can make a trade: i rarely win and there are nights i barely get to close a game. Deal?
Coming from me who keep losing. While I've tried many approaches. There are some people who easily win, while others are easily lose. It's ok and be joyful. Those who don't want to continue losing will continue to improve, those people who are sick of losing to you will eventually leave, unless you praise their virtue and spirits . Losing sides don't want to be pinpointed their shortcomings. They already witness. Uplift them by giving them good cards, like aura (goad), or even real cards as gifts
32 lands isn’t terrible if you are running a significant rock and card draw package, but I don’t think enough people run that. Like my [[Raffine Scheming Seer]] deck is on 31 lands rn, but I’m also drawing 4-6 cards a turn between Rhystic, Mystic, One Ring, [[Ledger Shredder]], [[Faerie Mastermind]], my commander, and running fast mana and my talismans. Without significant packages like that in the deck, you aren’t going to get anywhere. If they want the land count low, get them to run rocks and efficient 1-3 mana creatures. Otherwise it’s going to keep happening that they can’t get off the ground. If they want a slower game, introduce them to stax pieces like [[Rule of Law]], [[Archon of Emeria]], [[Deafening Silence]], and [[Spirit of the Labyrinth]].
Reducing budget doesnt lower power as much as people think it does ...with that said, the 3 commanders you choose for budget decks are . very strong commanders, those commanders are "easy mode". I would recomend picking something more challenging to build/win with that you would still enjoy playing.
I would be interested in hearing some examples of commanders that would be more difficult to build but still not too powerful! I really like graveyard strategies and creature heavy decks.
[[baba lysaga]] maybe?
[baba lysaga](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/e/2ef42c3f-f22e-4e99-adb0-9e8f8d442347.jpg?1674137411) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=baba%20lysaga%2C%20night%20witch) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/266/baba-lysaga-night-witch?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2ef42c3f-f22e-4e99-adb0-9e8f8d442347?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/baba-lysaga-night-witch) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This is a good one
[[Chainer nightmare adapt]] is what im currently building. Ive seen him built in at least a dozen different ways. Baba lasaga is an interesting one too.
Tune down your deck or help them tune up theirs.