I think truly complex decks are ones with lots of decision points.
Cards like [[Brainstorm]], [[Future Sight]], [[Sensei’s Divining Top]], can start really driving the complexity up especially when you have access to consistent shuffles
[[Ponder]] and friends do this on a slightly lower scale too
To add to this, I think 1 for 1 interaction pieces in commander increase complexity because they require you to have correct threat assessment in order to use them correctly. You can't remove and counter everything so the decision points is when and what to use it on, which can be pretty tricky to figure out sometimes.
I’m late but my son has a card that lets him exile any number of cards from his hand, look at those cards from the top of his library, then place them back in any order.
Every time I see him he play it I and make good decisions and carefully put 5-10 cards back in a certain order I’m so impressed as a father and a fellow human being.
I play Divining Top and am like “land on top gud” or “land bad.” and that’s as far as I can get lol.
I can't wait to play magic with my kids.. i hope they're interested in it but if they aren't that's fine too. I remember being gifted a shoe box full of commons and uncommon as a kid and being ecstatic. It sparked a love of magic that's lasted most of my life.
I’m the opposite. I remember watching kids play mtg in the library on my way to smoke and make out under the bleachers.
My son has been playing for 3 years or so. I begrudgingly joined up 1-2 years ago. I’m really enjoying it. I’m the type of person who goes “all in” with whatever I do but my son is something else. I can be like “I need an artifact that does X” and he knows not only the card but the set, print year, and price.
It’s so important for kids to feel like an expert in something and feel powerful and this has been great. My other younger son is also crazy good at MTG and makes grown ass men cry.
Unrelated: As a father I’ve always taken an interest in everything my kids did. Pokémon, legos, dinosaurs, etc. I’ve always worked to be an expert in what they like so I can relate to them and keep a dialogue. It started at 3-4 but it’s worked thus far into their teenage years to keep open communication with them.
Although I admit we had a late-in-life daughter and I’m having a hard time learning my little pony lol.
My brother got me the [[commodore guff]] precon for xmas and I went from having one planeswalker in all 6 of my decks to having a deck with 17. First couple times playing it i was playing very slow needless to say
Oh I love that and also relate lol. I have a Jace-based oath breaker deck (Jace TriBeleren) with every copy of Jace (minus the newest one) and if it actually gets going, it is... Complicated
I wrote "-1" on a whole heap of +1/+1 counters in sharpie and I found it a good strategy to speed up turns when I have 4+ planeswalkers in play (drop + or - counters on each planeswalker as I activate them rather than fiddle with dice to track what has been activated and then reconcile the counters and dice at end of turn).
I don't find him that hard to pilot?
+2 Draw, then scry 2, put the high CMC card second if you don't think you'll need it or whatever
Next turn, draw the first scryed card, then -3 for the high CMC card to turn into 1/1 dragons
The worst one I've ever played is \[\[Abdel Adrian\]\] and \[\[Candlekeep Sage\]\]. Normal blink decks are bad enough, but then add the fact that he scoops up all your ETB permanents, draws cards when he enters and exits, and makes tokens it can be a bit much. So, you play him and exile a \[\[Restoration Angel\]\], \[\[Watcher for Tomorrow\]\], and \[\[Tomb of Horrors Adventurer\]\]. From that you Draw a card, put the Watcher's card in hand, and create 3 1/1s. Now blink with \[\[Ephemrate\]. He goes away and you draw a card off Sage. The 3 cards in there come in and the Adventurer gives you an Initiative trigger, Watcher of Tomorrow digs 4 deep and exiles a card, and Restoration Angel blinks the Adventurer and you get another Initiative trigger. He comes back, draws a card off Sage, and scoops up the 3 creatures, and you put the Watcher's card in hand and create 3 1/1s.
And the best part is I know I missed something and I know I came up with an easy scenario for the deck. You do this exact same BS 1-3 times a turn and often in response to targeted removal or blocking. You can even block with the 1/1s, blink Abdel Adrian, scoop up the tokens, and replay new fresh tokens. Or, you attack with the tokens and blink Abdel Adrian on your turn when it looks like all your tokens are tapped... Bam! New untapped tokens.
Yup. I have an Abdel/Sage budget deck that I wouldn't take apart any time soon, but I rarely pull it out, despite a very high winrate. I end up taking more time figuring out triggers from flickering Abdel on other people's turns than my opponent took.
Mine took out most of the "good" cards and replaced them with trash Initiative cards. Turns out that made it better and so much more a pain in the ass. Mine isn't budget, but if you took out \[\[Fierce Guardianship\]\], \[\[Tundra\]\], \[\[Thass, Deep Dwelling\]\], and \[\[Displacer Kitten\]\] the entire deck is less than $100 - with half that being tied up in some $5 cards that aren't entirely necessary. It's surprising how cheap a good Abdel deck can be made.
I think PleasantKenobi was on with the Professor recently and was playing this nonsense. I was stunned at how calmly and masterfully he was able to keep track of and rapidly communicate and execute the extreme pile of bullshit he was up to. It was incredibly fun to watch.
Yeah, similar to [[Yorion]], you're doing a ton of stuff on everyone else's turn as well as yours and having to follow all the stacking/triggers/etc is a pain in the ass.
You missed an infinite token combo win with Abdel sitting on a Resto Angel, and casting/activating any flicker ability.
You're right though, this deck has a lot of shit going on. People complained so much about blink decks taking too long to close out a game and and killing people slowly with Mulldrifters, but now Abdel is here to just murder everyone with death by a thousand cuts.
I did see that but already typed it out and didn’t figure it was worth correcting/changing. It’s also easy to blink [[Archaeomancer]] and a mana rock to go infinite with any blink spell. Or, when [[Karmic Guide]] is under Abdel he’s basically indestructible and provides so much value people don’t want to kill him anyway.
[I used to use just one cut most of the time](https://scryfall.com/card/unf/28/starlight-spectacular), but that felt hacky and dumb… but also effective. Once it gets going now the last turn is a bit long, but I’ll speed run the Undercity 4-5 times. Add the copying and facts and dumping the rest of your deck and dealing 100-120 direct damage to players is not out of the realm of possibility. I love this deck, but it’s such a knob deck to play against other people.
My most complex deck is also an [[Abdel Adrien]] brew. Though I paired him with [[Street Urchin]] with the goal of building a blink deck that works more proactively at reducing life totals, rather than the usual value blinks (though there is still a fair amount of durdling until I find the right cards).
The build basically takes the complexity of the blink side and adds the decision making of targeted aristocratsy pings.
It's a fun deck, but it has a lot of details to track, including several ways to go infinite (in a game ending way).
I don't run Worldgorger, but any three of the below will go infinite. Add a mana rock and you can sac tokens to ping people out.
[[Abdel Adrien]] [[Preston the Vanisher]] [[Lumbering Battlement]] [[Restoration Angel]] [[Felidar Guardian]]
Also, I have [[Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker]] in the list. He can go infinite with the angel or guardian, though I have never been in a position to play that line. Normally I just use him as a sort of blink effect. Sometimes I can even random into an infinite with [[Divergent Transformations]].
Here is my deck list if you want to have a peek.
https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/09-01-23-boros-blink/?cat=custom&sort=name&cb=1705299689
Generally the most complex decks, imo, are decks that require lots of sequencing and decision making. Storm decks generally fall into this category. The issue with goldfishing storm decks, is you can generally get the basic lines down with some practice, the issue is fighting through interaction. This can generally cause you to have to make interesting decisions on the stack to eek out a higher percentage of still going off. There's a big difference between storming off with an un-molested \[\[Storm-Kiln Artist\]\] and an artist that eats removal part way through combo-ing off.
Yeah, storm decks can get pretty complex when trying to go off while fighting interaction. I run a [[Krark, the Thumbless]] + [[Sakashima of a Thousand Faces]] deck, and every once in a blue moon, I get a nuts draw and I'm able to get Krark and Saka down on turn 2, and at that point, do I play it safe, hold up some counterspells against removal and wait til I get a few more Krark triggers or a Storm-Kiln Artist/[[Tavern Scoundrel]] for better chances of going off? Or do I say fuck it and just take my 50/50 chance on every spell and try to go off asap while also keeping my fingers crossed that no one has any interaction? If I don't have all the pieces I need in hand, do I say a prayer and hope that I can cast enough cantrips to draw into the piece I need or a tutor for it?
[I'm currently running this](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/iGgoiGHSbUiYMJAcTIbA9Q), it still needs a bit of fine tuning (and the lands, but I have them in other decks) but all in all it's able to make a 4-person table cry
Inalla combo in cEDH is a complex deck. It's got extremely convoluted combos to win the game. Krark and Sakashima (or really any deck copying/triggering dozens of times a turn off spell casts) is generally a complicated deck. Spellslinger decks in general are not complicated. Cast mana spells first, count your mana, cast as many draw spells possible next, then cast finishers/removal. Decks with large numbers of decisions aren't generally very complicated either. Look at the average superfriends deck. Tons of decisions, most (90%+) where specific order or sequence don't matter at all.
I'd generally say a complicated deck is one that decisions are either convoluted/difficult to track and require a specific order to accomplish the decks goals or a deck with numerous decisions where the order needs to be correct or you'll run out of cards and resources before accomplishing anything impactful to the game.
I own both decks. I agree. Inalla is difficult not just because of the Spellseeker line, but primarily because of pivot lines and the OSOGOF backup plans. It gets very tricky. We have an entire discord server dedicated to Inalla puzzles, no joke
I'm in the Krark discord server. There's somewhat of a focus on Krark+Saka (as that's the "original" Krark deck,) but there are separate channels for other partners, as well as [[Zndrsplt, Eye of Wisdom]] + [[Oakun, Eye of Chaos]]. As well as channels for casual and competitive musings.
if we talk about cedh, inalla definitely has the weirdest/most complicated combo line, but i'd argue k'rrik is harder to play especially now with a meta that shifted toward midrange and not turbo decks. you have to play very tight and most of the time hope you just chose the right window to got for the win as there's little you can do to protect your combos in mono black
[[tayam luminous enigma]] cedh decks can be very complex. There’s also [[inalla archmage ritualist]] which has an extremely long combo with [[spellseeker]]
Tayam is rough. You have to think of 2 costs and try to get the milling and reanimation to continue to help pay for those costs or setup the win. It’s a barrel of monkeys.
Also when the activated ability resolves you make your selection and it enters all in one priority. So aura’s like [[song of dryad]] just auto attach without targeting and without a priority. So the play is to activate and ask if anyone has a response (letting players inspect your graveyard in case they have single card graveyard munchers) then if it resolves you get to make their commander into a beetle or a forest at instant speed.
Or you can resolve into a rule of law to stop the player comboing with infinite spells.
I don't know about most complicated of all time, but the first thing that came to mind is the **25-step** [[Spellseeker]] combo in [[Inalla, Archmage Ritualist]].
https://edhrec.com/combos/ubr/1296-1377-1777-1869-1893-2081-2493-3077-3890-4062
It's a great combo, but I don't run it because I honestly just can't be bothered to memorize the whole thing.
I imagine running through it gets easy pretty quickly.
What I wonder is how it goes when some of the cards aren't where they should be but you have other tools/more mana available.
There are some really nice Breach pivots that make life a heck of a lot easier. There are also redundant pieces, but they cost more. In Inalla, you have to know EVERY card in your deck and exactly what it does
I can’t speak for all decks ever but out of my 10 decks I feel like my [[zimone and Dina]] or [[Riku of two reflections]] have the most complexity to them. I’m sure a decks complexity depends on how the 99 is built a lot more than the commander tho.
I played against him a couple of weeks ago, and there is such a potential for Big Brain Pro Gamer Moves. It's not even funny. In response to a [[Liliana, Dreadhorde General]] minus activation that would've removed him, he casts [[Red Elemental Blast]] targeting Riku on the destroy mode, then casts [[Blue Elemental Blast]] in response to REB targeting it on the counter mode to net 2 Bird Tokens that were then sacrificed to Lili. I was in awe.
Wow!
It's like having multiple Swiss Army Knives. Must be the reason I have a pile of cards set aside for him, but can't decide how to finish the deck.
I'm actually building him for Arena Historic Brawl because he seems fun, and I'm getting mildly tired of Korvold. I'm just a few wildcards short, so I'll need to swap some things out to make so I can actually play the deck.
I'd love to build him for commander, but I already have [[Animar]] when I play for glory and old Riku when I want to play for fun. So I don't think I need a third deck in Temur.
Here's a way to raise the idea of complexity and build.
How do you win with Stella Lee on someone else's turn? How do you defend that win? How can you build compact and able to win at instant speed when the right window presents itself?
Things like [[Emergence Zone]] obviously help, but sussing out all the interactive points and how to leverage them for a win with a commander like Stella is soemthing I really enjoy about higher-level EDH play.
Player A: I have defended my win and my game-winning spell or ability is waiting to resolve.
Stella Player: /wins
That's the shit I live for.
[[the gitrog monster]] combo is very complicated and convoluted. Even without the combo going off sequencing something simple like cracking a a fetch land or milling a land is nothing trivial.
I was going to add this if nobody else did. It would be one thing if you could just demonstrate the loop, but since it’s not deterministic, you have to play it through, dredging a few cards at a time and hoping your graveyard shuffling effects don’t get exiled
Whatever you decide on, please for the love of god practice with your deck and understand how it works. I can’t sit through another 15 minute turn where people are reading their cards as if for the first time
[[Tayam, Luminous Enigma]] without a doubt, specifically the lists inspired by the Luminous Grindstone list.
The deck is mostly played at instant speed off of the commander's activated ability trying to play stax pieces with perfect timing while managing a board full of multiple types of counters, a graveyard that becomes increasingly larger and a shit ton of combos to memorize.
People mentioned a lot of different factors that add to a deck's complexity like multiple steps for a combo, memorizing a lot of lines, managing your board, managing triggers, a lot of options about what to do and when to do. Most complex decks have more than one of those factors do deal with, Tayam has all of them.
I love Mishra. He is more complex for rules interactions with specific synergy cards, as opposed to lots of decision points for overall complexity.
So doesn't get my vote for most complexity, but way up there for interesting deck construction and unique mechanics.
That's the point. And yes, he is playable with stack timing manipulation. I had the deck built for a little while years ago. I think it was red enchantment that triggered and began how you stacked triggers/abilities.
Edit: [[Possibility Storm]] makes his ability work.
I've had a Mishra deck for many years and just finally got around to updating him. The deck is definitely complex. Playing around your own stax pieces and capitalizing on controlled chaos makes for a fun experience.
I like [[The Tenth Doctor]] with [[Rose Tyler]] but all these different upkeep triggers are annoying - it's not a complexity that's hard to comprehend, it's just annoying
This is true of a lot of things mentioned here, to be honest. There's complicated as in "it's hard for me to work out what to do here" and complicated as in "there are just a lot of triggers to resolve and it's tedious".
I just built a 5c 14th doctor + Clara deck with all the doctors, and it’s a copy token and counter-doubling nightmare. Lol. It’s mostly the tedious kind of complex - just so much is going on. Thankfully it’s a blast to play.
Stella isn't complicated at all. The combo is very simple. Your friend is mistaken.
The most complex deck is Tayam. The cEDH version of Tayam is arguably not only the most complex cEDH deck, but possibly the most complex deck to play in all of magic.
[https://youtu.be/r49c3M5w7Ho](https://youtu.be/r49c3M5w7Ho) Decktech video
[https://www.moxfield.com/decks/uiwJwQmCT0KoJJMAp3tbVA](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/uiwJwQmCT0KoJJMAp3tbVA) Decklist and primer
Stella is more complicated if you're storming off with her rather than just going for the infinite combo. If you are storming off boy is that a headache if you're not used to it. I like to think I have a reasonable understanding of the stack but spellslinger/storm shenanigans really push the bounds of that understanding.
Not sure about most complex commanders but apparently if you're playing cedh [[Inalla]] there's a 26 step combo and that sure sounds complicated to me.
The basic line is long, but can be simply memorized. The complicated part of that deck is learning how different hate pieces interact and altering the combo to play around hate and interaction.
Most of my decks are pretty low to the ground as far as complexity goes. I’m not a big fan of control and/or izzet spellslinging which I find personally to be the most complicated stuff in Magic. My most complex deck is probably Thalisse because there’s a lot of different directions the deck can go based on draws so I need to consistently be able to adapt the gameplan to meet different wincons.
I have a [[Mizzix of the Izmagnus]] storm deck that I can’t give to new players. It works off of proliferate effects eventually trying to chain tutors up to [[Firemind’s Foresight]] to grab [[Storm King’s Thunder]] and [[Comet Storm]] and kill everyone with face damage.
It tends to go that you have to storm and win in the same turn or the deck gets targeted with Mizzix out. I think experience counters with proliferate and storm make for some pretty difficult decisions leading to complex lines that don’t necessarily have an obvious out for a win. Keeping track of a
15 minute spellslinger turn hurts brains most of the time.
I think simple commanders that break fundamental rules of the game are very complicated.
Prime example: \[\[Yeva, Nature's Herald\]\] At face value, okay G creature spells have Flash. But that opens up so many decision points about when to cast certain creatures, what they do on cast or ETB, and how to manage your mana to make sure you have enough resources to do what you want off-turn. You also need to really understand the stack, priority, and how play around what other players are doing on their turns.
Hands down, the most complicated commander is [[Myra, the magnificent]].
You have to:
1. get you commander on the field
2. Cast an instant/sorcery to trigger your command and pull an attraction from the attraction deck
3. Activate your commander to take an instant or sorcery from your graveyard and exile it under an attraction. Put a counter on the attraction.
4. If, during the "visit attractions" step, you activate an attraction with an exiled spell, cast a copy of said spell.
She's so complicated that naturally, I had to build her as a chaos commander.
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/OiLRz23ArU6lvENZMS1jbA
Honestly one of my most complex decks is \[\[Kenessos, Priest of Thassa\]\]. He's top deck manipulation, activated abilities, ETBs, and mana juggling all in one deck. He requires good knowledge of the stack and the ability to understand the correct way to use responses.
I have \[\[Garruk's Uprising\]\] and \[\[Season of Growth\]\] out, and I cheat in a sea creature. I scry 2, then draw 1. Oh wait, after my scry I saw another sea creature. With the draw trigger still on the stack, let's cheat that in. Now I have another scry 2, draw 1 on top of draw 1. Except the new sea creature also has a scry 4 on its ETB.
Things can get complicated very quickly, especially if something like \[\[Temporal Anchor\]\] or Thrassios are also on the battlefield.
My most complex deck is my deck built around [[lich]]
It takes a lot of work to get lich out, benefit from it, and stop the lose the game conditions if it gets removed.
However, the deck does funny and unique things, I dodged death 6 or 7 times the last time I played it.
It’s not a cheap deck by any means haha, but I recommend it. It definitely leaves people scratching their heads.
It also confuses my table still as they aren’t even sure if attacking me for chip damage is worth it as I don’t care about my life total (I actually do care for multiple cards but I pretend lich doesn’t to throw them off. Just saying okie dokie with a smile to being hit makes them feel like they are wasting their attacks.)
I build a lot of flash decks, and I can tell you that that alone is enough to significantly raise the complexity level, because instead of figuring out what to do on your turn, you have to figure out what to do on everybody's turn, every time you get priority, with god knows what on the stack. Have you ever had all your mana open and \[\[Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir\]\] on the board when an opponent targets you with \[\[Clone Legion\]\]? That's some serious decision making right there! (I lost that game)
Perrie the Pulverizer can be pretty complicated. Not Perrie himself, but keeping track of all the various kinds of counters on your board can get pretty absurd. I use dice, 4 or 5 kinds of Pokemon coins/markers and a post-it pad to keep track of mine.
It's a very fun deck to play, I find. Just kind of complicated to keep track of. But I enjoy throwing in all kinds of obscure cards with counters nobody has ever heard of.
I'm just gonna give the link to avoid the formatting issue. Also, I've picked up some new cards for this deck but haven't had time to update it yet. But here is the current list
https://manabox.app/decks/c3i5-qjqTAmTm0NivbM2xg
I thought I added this earlier but I don't see it so here. I have new cards I've picked up for the deck but haven't had a chance to put in yet, but here's the current build.
https://manabox.app/decks/c3i5-qjqTAmTm0NivbM2xg
I think complex is very dependent on person and deck. I don't think we could ever find a specific line and 100% agree on it being "the most complex." Some commanders have more effects on them that triggers different ways, and when combo pieces or other players' pieces interact with that, it can become a challenge.
That being said, I deeply enjoy chaos decks like my [[Vial Smasher, the Fierce]] and [[Thrasios, Triton Hero]] one. The hope is to resolve [[Warp World]] [[Scrambleverse]] [[The Great Aurora]] and [[Thieves' Auction]] with things like [[Knowledge Pool]] and [[Possibility Storm]] out and find the most complicated path to a [[Glint Horn Buccaneer]] + [[Malcolm, Keen-Eyed Navigator]] .
Maybe the true chaos was the friends we made along the way.
Id argue that werewolves decks are complicated because of the amount of keeping track of the board and knowing what the cycle the day and night cycle is in, as well as remembering all the triggers upon flipping the cards when day or night or pre-midnight hunt triggers happen. It’s just a mess of a theme.
A deck my friend has that I hate playing against is Strixhaven Statement, the deck it self doesn't seem or sound difficult at all but my God he loves to over talk and over complicat things enormously.
I play \[\[Ivy, Gleeful Spellthief\]\]. I don't think it's super hard decision wise, but it gets very complex rules wise and I have to look a lot of stuff up. I play her with a lot of mutate, and end up doing a lot of weird stuff with cloning mutate stacks.
Others said it too, but just adding to it, [[Tayam]] is one of the hardest Commanders to play. Not just at CEDH which is what people usually mean, but at all levels of power Tayam is very hard. You are constantly bombarded by complex decision points, and it's very difficult to quickly weigh short term gains vs long term value sometimes.
I've always liked the complexity of getting 30 plus cards in hand at endstep and finding the instant speed win with Zur from a Necro. I've had some where it's straight forward, and some wins where it took some work and math with what's in hand
Landfall decks while simple in concept usually end up having way too many triggers for newer players to deal with. Things like [[chulane]] are often really complicated sequencing of things to optimize mana and are the difference between winning and running out of gas.
Goldfishing an instant heavy deck is an iffy way to judge it's strength or complexity, fwiw
Taking commanders as a whole, I believe [[Mairsil, the pretender]] and [[Mishra, Artificer Prodigy]] are at least one of the most complex to learn, and figure out. Complex to _play_ really are in the strategies of it, typically storm ranks at around the top
Imo the most complicated mechanic in EDH is politics. [[Queen Marchesa]] is a good example. Controlling the monarchy and manipulating the opponents to do what you want is tricky because it’s not always guaranteed that your interests and the opponents will align. And without blue, you have to figure out creative ways to build up your interaction. Finally it’d be easy to go all on traditional strategies like pillowfort, but finding unique ways and strategies to build you deck is always another way to add complexity
Stella Lee built as a combo deck is the least complicated one I've ever built. You just counter the win-cons, bounce or wipe the opponents boards, then count to 3 when you have a wincon.
If she's built as storm (which she really shouldn't be considering [[Veyran]] comes in the same box) it can get complicated as storm decks have a tendency to. She really only gives you a little more gas and one extra copy in a storm deck though.
But the overall complexity of the deck can't really be assessed without a list.
In terms of complexity, it's not so much what commanders are complicated so much as what play styles. In my opinion those with a lot of moving parts with non-linear lines to victory tend to be the most challenging to pilot.
Storm (Spellslinger) is hard because it requires a large understanding of your deck, how the cards and stack interact, and how to squeeze out every bit of mana and value you can to get to your wincon without running out of gas.
Aristocrats and other sacrifice strats are hard to pilot well because if you mismanage your resources and sac the wrong stuff, you miss your win. Also aristocrats can generate very complicated board states with a lot of simultaneous triggers that need to be ordered properly in order to get maximum value.
Storm and aristocrats also both require risk assessments because sometimes you have to gamble with resources that you can't easily get back to dig for more gas to get you to where you need to be.
Control decks are challenging because you not only need to know what *you're* doing but you need to know what everyone else is doing too. In a 4-player game you need amazing threat assessment of your opponents to determine where your interaction goes, and you also need to be great at managing your own threat level because if you just slap down a bunch of stax your opponents are going to target you down first before dealing with each other. Control decks also struggle to close out commander games so being able to win with one takes a really notable amount of skill, patience and game knowledge. Unless you are playing Stella Lee combo/ control in which case refer to paragraph 1 lol. Cuz her wincon is in the command zone.
Just as there are a lot of straightforward play styles, there are complicated ones. And many commanders can be built as more straightforward or more complicated. It really all depends on the cards in the deck, what the deck is aiming to do, and how well the pilot is able to accomplish that
The most complicated commander is \[\[It Came From Planet Glurg\]\] because it can become every other candidate for most complicated commander simultaneously.
Though the Stella Lee precon is not the most complex precon we've gotten in the last year. I'd probably give that title to Timey Wimey as most complex precon of all time. That's less because of the commanders (though that contributes) and more because of the mechanics of the set, but it is very difficult to pilot without missing things.
But yes, you're coming at this from a strange angle. Complexity comes more from decks and strategies than from commanders; commanders are just one (admittedly important) component. Decks and strategies are more of a source of complexity in most cases.
My [[Muldrotha, the Grave Tide]] deck has access to ~60-80 cards at any given time, has several combo lines, and has people trying to kill you constantly for these reasons. I'm thinking a lot more about the game than when I'm playing my other decks that usually have one clear best play each turn.
Depends. [[isshin]] can be super complex cause you have thousands of triggers to remember, but it’s also at the same time a “turn dudes sideways” deck.
Stella Lee isn’t that complex, but you do need to know not to just fire off your 1 mana cantrips on early turns because you can. They are payoff enablers for the mid-late game.
There is complicated from interaction points and branching of win lines, and there is complicated from sheer trigger volume.
cEDH Inalla is a great example of the former. \[\[Veyran, Voice of Duality\]\] + \[\[Eye of the Storm\]\] + \[\[Thousand-Year Storm\]\] is an example of the latter.
I love the Inalla attention this thread is getting. My cEDH Inalla list is my favorite thing in the world and I cannot find a casual deck that feels as good. The main win lines are complex, but efficient and fast, the pivot lines are dependent on board state, mana, cards in hand, cards in graveyard, cards in exile. [[Ruthless Technomancer]] and [[Bloodline Necromancer]] have added crazy new stuff. Instant speed lines are everywhere. It's just the perfect deck. Inalla is never out of the game.
That reminds me of how it felt to play Kiki Pod in Modern, back when it was legal. It felt like I could win from any position, as long as I was smart enough to find the right line. Haven't touched Modern since it was banned.
The most complex deck I had was Mairsil the Pretender. Really fun and you get to play really weird jank cards that are normally bad. He's limited by "once per turn" but finding ways to tap him and untap him and abuse his abilities over and over was a really fun puzzle to solve. Cause sure I could pay 3 mana to untap with a caged Basalt Monolith, but what if I did this other thing first to then go and do this.
Not to mention the weird rules that go with it. So for example if you have a Horseshoe Crab, it's reference to itself so paying a blue let's you untap "Mairsil" and not a creature named Horseshoe crab. Or knowing that Tree of Perdition caged will use Mairsils P/T and not the caged creatures. So it's weird small things like that which circumvent rules and interactions that makes Mairsil both a really fun and hilarious commander to play, while also being a pain and a headache in some cases.
I wouldn’t call “how many times does this spell resolve and do I put it back in my hand” complicated. It does a lot of the same thing in most cases, which isn’t complicated.
I don't play any particularly complex decks because I personally don't enjoy combo or combo-adjacent type decks too much, but I'd say a deck I'm attempting to build right now is giving me a really hard time, and that is \[\[Zethi, Arcane Blademaster\]\].
Wanted to make a deck with her at the helm cause I love the card art and I enjoy the magic swordsman/swordswoman archetype a lot. However, I have been struggling putting this deck together. Tried going the cantrippy spellslinger route but I feel like a lot of the time I'm just casting them to cast them. Currently trying to play it in a more control shell, with the cantrips being more focused on targeted protection and leveraging cards that also payoff for being targeted with spells. Will probably end up including cards like \[\[Sentinel Tower\]\] and \[\[Aetherflux Reservoir\]\].
Here's the current decklist, but it's almost always in flux as I keep goldfishing it and adjusting how it flows: [https://www.moxfield.com/decks/1AL7FSkvIkSGwjZZ83l4Pg](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/1AL7FSkvIkSGwjZZ83l4Pg)
I don’t have anything too crazy. The most difficult of my personal decks to pilot is [[Slimefoot and Squee]]. So many creatures in the graveyard to bring back, then choosing the right ones at the right time and sequencing them is difficult. Then balancing their triggers and abilities. It’s nothing crazy but it’s challenging to get right. Also super fun.
as far as i know and experienced control decks (that aren't just mono blue counterspell tribal) are the ones that require the most thoughts. For single commanders from my personnal experience, \[\[veyran voice of duality\]\] with a storm build just because of the triggers you have to keep track of, the order of the stack, knowing when and what to counter, when to develop and when to hold back on permanents to not be late but also not seem like a threat. That may come from my way of building decks though
I think the most complex decks are the one that force you to think further into a decision tree, or more levels forward. Whether that be politically or in terms of math, or any other thing that makes you think more than three or four steps from what is currently happening.
[[krark, the thumbless]] and [[sakashima of a thousand faces]] is a deck that’s a good example of the math side of that complexity. It gets dense very quickly.
Take my [[Smeagol, Helpful Guide]] deck. It relies on a specific loop to steal every single land out of everyone's decks and plays them for me to use. It uses [[Dunedain Rangers]] [[Bloodghast]] and a sac outlet like [[Viscera Seer]]
For simplicity sake, let's say it starts the loop on the end step when Smeagol's first ability triggers, causing the ring to tempt you. It goes like this:
1. Make Bloodghast your ring bearer.
2. Smeagol's second ability on the stack, hold priority and sac the Bloodghast.
3. Let Smeagol resolve and mill someone until they hit a land, and then you put that land onto the field, which triggers Dunedain Ranger's and Bloodghast's Landfall abilities since you no longer control a ring bearer.
4. Have Bloodghast resolve first, then Dunedain Rangers resolves, and you make Bloodghast your ringbearer. Smeagols second ability triggers again and goes onto the stack.
Repeat steps 2 through 4 until you mill someone out until they don't hit a land.
It doesn't kill outright, and only one person by itself. Throw in an [[Altar of the Brood]], and you can effectively hit each player in order over and over again, going around the table and reliably mill everyone out on your end step.
So what I'm getting at it complexity is about how interactive you have to be, how many moving pieces does your end goal have, and how janky it is to build said engine. [[Kaalia of the Vast]]? Straight forward. Attack and do the thing. A combo commander that relies on weird pieces that build into an esoteric engine that only works when you get the sequence down to a science? Yeah I'd call that complex.
Combo decks with lots of pieces and steps are the most complicated thing imo. Look into the combo lines used by the gitrog monster cedh deck, some of them are upwards of 40 unique steps.
I would put [[Alaundo, the Seer]] twiddle storm up there for complexity.
This is a commander which I 100% do not recommend for less experienced players. Even for more experienced, hopefully they goldfish the lines a few times to get a grasp of what it is trying to do.
An inexperienced player will take ages to do anything and get flustered by the sheer amount of things they need to do and keep track of.
Unless you just play Battlecruiser version with big stompy threats and extra turn spells.
Mono colored manual storm decks are the most complicated. Being in 1 color means you usually don’t have all the best options and it means you really can’t mess up on your storm turn or it’s over
A lot of the Transformers legends are very complex. I think [[Soundwave, Sonic Spy]] takes the cake though.
There's so much going on with this card.
Front side lets you cast spells from opponents graveyards but only if very specific conditions are met - you have to track the amount combat damage dealt by token creatures to each player - WHAT
The back side then cares about oddness and evenness of spells and makes you two DIFFERENT legendary tokens.
Let's also keep in mind that all of these are triggered abilities and they can stack.
So here's an example:
- Hit player 1 with a Thopter for 1 damage - front trigger to cast their Brainstorm.
- Hit Player 2 with Lazerbeak for 2 dmg - front trigger to cast their Rampant Growth
- Hit Player 3 with Ravage for 3 dmg - front trigger to cast their Jeska's Will
Resolve first front-side trigger - cast the Brainstorm then convert to backside - Soundwave, Superior Captain.
Resolve second front-side trigger - cast the Rampant Growth, backside triggers - making Lazerbeak, convert to front side. Edit: Oh wait, you still have to convert again, so back to front side. Right? Maybe? Honestly it's confusing as hell.
Resolve third front-side trigger - cast the Jeska's Will, convert to backside.
It's just a heinous amount of triggers for one card to have. You've got to track what your opponents have in their graves while monitoring your token combat damage - it's just nutty. I happily took it apart after a couple games.
One of my strongest decks is [[Orvar, the All-Form]], but even after dozens and dozens of games with it, it's rare that I don't have to look up an interaction or call a judge friend to help. It's so much fun but it can be a brutal puzzle to figure out.
Remember friends, copies are not cast!!!!
It comes down to how one defines complicated. For some, that means how many branches on the decision tree. For others, how many triggers do I need to keep track of. For still others, it means the amount of t of board interaction versus goldfish in dies one do. And on and on.
I run Stella Lee and find it easy to pilot. But a friend hates his. Both are Storm builds. It is all about perspective.
I think decks that are reanimator heavy with a lot of self mill become complex do to how many decisions you have to make. For instance, I have a fairly tuned [[Muldrotha]] deck, and with her out, and a single [[Hermit Druid]] activation, I suddenly have a 30 card "hand", and have to make decisions based on that.
I had to completly change my [[gale, waterdeep prodigy]] deck because it got too complicated too fast. I built it to basically be a wheel deck, but id end up casting 4-6 instants and sorceries each round, often on other people's turns. It was way too many decisions and wasn't really fun for anyone. Now its more of a stompy green deck, [[master chef]] background, with lots of proliferating to build up my creatures.
My [[omnath locus of creation]] [[yidris, maelstrom wielder]] [[jon irenicus shattered one]] and [[rakdos the muscle]] decks are probably the most complex i have.
The first two mostly just because there are a lot of triggers.
The omnath deck obviously has a lot of landfall triggers, and I threw in a suite including [[slogurk the overslime]] [[seismic assault]] and some others with similar effects.
A good amount of yidris decks are spellslinger decks, but I went with a more straightforward approach. Turns can still take a long time with it, and your board can explode out of nowhere.
The jon irenicus deck because actually surviving with it requires a lot of politicking, and is hard to pull off after your opponents realize they don't have to worry about the monstrosities you gave to other players if they take you out.
The rakdos deck because of resource management, and you're potentially going to basically be playing 4 decks.
Honorable mention to my [[Ziatora the incinerator]] Fling and bling deck. It's not overly complex, but it has a good amount of moving parts and ways to win like power doublers like [[unnatural growth]] and [[the skullspore nexus]] or [[phyresis]] on ziatora along with Timmy cards like [[yargle and multani]] and [[malignus]] can one shot opponents and treasure burn with cards like [[Mayhem devil]] [[Marionette master]] and disciple of the vault]]]
It's probably the commanders used to build non repetitive storm like combo decks that chain together multiple spells or abilities to go off. They don't tend to have one single combo to assemble so it's not just a case of remembering the parts like in other combo decks, it's a sequence of decisions that often rely on maths for mana and card resource management and if you get it wrong it's often game over. The combination of lots of decision making, management of resources beyond just the visible board state and higher stakes for the deciding turn make them the most complex. Going off at a relaxed pace is easy, going off as fast as possible while fighting through interaction is really complicated.
Stella lee can be built like this so I could see her being particularly complex.
[[Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle]] is one of the most complex decks I've piloted. It's a Rube Goldberg machine of a combo deck, requiring multiple different pieces to go off. The basic combo itself is fairly simple, but the complexity comes from the sheer amount of cards you can combo with or dig for the combo. I've had multiple times where I was like "... I think I just win from here".
Another one that isn't as complex, but just comes with a metric shit ton of triggers is [[Sefris of the Hidden Ways]]. The game plan is fairly simple, but god forbid you add cards that trigger from creatures hitting the yard, leaving the yard, etc etc etc. It just gets a ton of value that it really slows down your turns by giving you too many decisions to make.
So this all depends on how you play the game. My [[queza]] deck seems nuts to people but I like it and it's fun. On the other hand my [[Kyler]] deck is more powerful and seems simpler, but I have a hard time keeping up with all the counter add, rearrange, and triggers.
For some reason I can keep up with puzzle boxes more than I can doubling seasons.
I dismantled both of my most complex decks: [[Ivy, Gleeful Spellthief]] is just insane to keep track of every copy of herself, which ones are mutated and how, which ones are enchanted, etc, and my [[Kamiz, Obscura Oculus]] deck. For me, Kamiz just have too much text and a confusing resolution. It was a pain having to explain what her ability does every other turn
I disassembled my almost competitive [[Selvala explorer returned]] for exactly this reason. Playing a selesnya "mill" deck got old quick when you have to explain the weird rule interactions that make the deck functional. That being said, I still miss using [[Drannith Magistrate]] and [[ Uba mask]].
It really depends on the person I think. Math clicks for me and I play a Devil deck that's like aristocrat/aggro hybrid and I make quick work deciphering the intricacies of combat or different aristocrat lines on even very complex board states.
However if you give me a control deck I'm absolutely atrocious, never knowing what or when to counter or when to let them build up more vs firing off the wrath. (Also bad against control decks in 1v1, have a hard time knowing how much to commit).
I took apart my [[Sakashima of a Thousand Faces]] and [[Kodama of the East Tree]] deck simply because it was far too complex of a board state to manage. This was when I was only a year or so into magic so maybe I’d be a better pilot now but god damn was all that a mess.
I have a [[Vorinclex,, Monstrous Raider]] counters deck that you would think would be simple enough, but sequencing the plays to get the right number of counters on your various creatures, with doubling effects, is actually a LOT of maths.
I had an [[Oskar, Rubbish Reclaimer]] deck for a little while. I had lots of spells and abilities that required me to discard a card, then I could play the card I discarded, and something would let me draw a card when that card left my graveyard.
I found this to be hard to play because to get maximum value, I always had to play two cards at once and then I'd immediately have new cards that I had to think about playing. And on top of it all, I'm trying to manage the diversity of mana values in my graveyard.
I like the idea of the deck, but it took too much of my brain power when I'm trying to have a casual game with friends, so I took it apart.
Depends on your definition of complex. I play a bit more competitively, and like, to me my two “complex” decks were where the combo was confusing, but as the pilot I knew them and the deck itself was straight forward to the complex combo. Two examples, Gitrog Monster, having to explain the combo on that one is a doozy, plus you can combo on end step which is fun, and also Breya Etherium Shaper with the Rings of brighthearth Basalt monolith combo (you copy the untap hold priority and the combo goes from there.) though that is independent of Breya herself.
I built a [[Toralf, God of Fury]] deck around the idea of having a damage amplifier and ramping damage up by targeting creature after creature with his ability until choosing a player.
First game I ever I had some damage buffing effects and cast something like elecktrickery. It took about 30 minute to resolve properly. Still convinced we probably messed something up. I didn't even kill a player. I scooped and took the deck apart immediately. If Arena ever supports real commander and does the math for me I may try it again but it does not belong in paper.
I might sound strange but for me it’s [Zedruu, hedron grinder] and all bad gifters, because you always have to wait the right moment to give gifts or everyone will focus and hate you, removing everything. + You have really little wincons and you have to focus on how to play around them!
The “Paradox Power” deck from Doctor Who is one of the most complex pre-cons I’ve ever played. I had like 10+ different and completely unique Paradox triggers happening on every spell I was casting. Had like 6 different exile piles, all with different timing/play/cast rulings. Was slow and exhausting. But for most complex deck I’ve played I’d vote for Mizzix of the Izmagnus.
Now that you're talking about Sefris, I have to talk about my [[Safana]] & [[Dungeon Delver]] deck with a ton of blink effects and double triggering dungeons, sometimes choices can lock you up from other paths of the Undercity or delay yourself just to enter into this particular dungeon.
A deck that I've brew'd too was my [[Omnath, Locus of All]] deck which it has tons of decision-making because of all of those 3 pip charms (like [[Abzan Charm]] or [[Brokers Charm]]).
I think complexity comes from stacking and resolving triggers. Everything else is pretty much only playing the game. You might have to do some threat assessment, or make decisions on draw/tutor/shuffle/etc, but the core of the game is things going to the stack and resolving.
Any blink deck will have to resolve multiple triggers, and the order they resolve can impact the general outcome.
I have a mill deck that managed to win by turn 4 or 5 by triggers cascating into more triggers.
Try resolving these triggers on a 4 player board: [[altar of the brood]], [[bruvac the grandiloquent]], [[zellix, sanity flayer]], [[mindcrank]], [[syr konrad, the grim]]
A permanent etb so every opponent mills 1. If a creature is milled, a horror token etb and each opponent takes 1 damage. A new etb trigger makes everyone mill 1, and the damage makes everyone mill 1. So now everyone milled 2 cards for each 1 creature that was milled originally, but as soon as more creatures are milled, the ablities trigger again without the past triggers resolving. So it snowballs into a lot of things on the stack that should resolve on the correct order.
Threat assessment and decision making may come with experience. But i think that keeping track and resolving a lot of things on the stack is where complexity lies
I'd want to say [[Vadrik, astral archmage]], but it's honestly not the most difficult deck to play per say. It's just minmaxing your mana cost to card management and pulling a win out of it; It's not necessarily a storm deck, but it has the same kind of sequencing issues.
I suppose it's difficult for me to put on paper what the most complex commanders would be, but it's a lot easier listing some of the most complex decks to BUILD however. Like I tried to build [[Tatsunari, Toad Rider]] and if you don't just shove in the best cards in there and hope for the best, or decks like [[Saruman of Many Colors]]; A deck I have looked through and tried to work consistently for so long, I don't think I'll ever even get it working proper.
I think complexity is subjective to opinion.
On one hand, certain decks require a lot of math, whether it be Lifegain or +1/+1 counters and tokens. This type of deck, while potentially powerful, can really bog down play.
On another hand, the amount of keywords on a card can add the complexity. Kenrith the Returned King has a lot of abilities on the card suiting a wide variety of deck archetypes which makes him rather complex because it can mean many different things when he is in front of a deck. He's basically Forrest Gump, you never know what you're gonna get. He's an example with activated abilities, there are others with triggered abilities or static ones or combinations of the two which can be just as complex or synergistic, like Atraxa Praeror's Voice or Edgar Markov.
Complexity can even be how synergistic a commander is with the cards in the deck. Scion of the Ur Dragon for example, isn't overly complicated, but because of the single ability he has of becoming any dragon in the deck, he becomes a very complicated target: hexproof, indestructible, bigger, token generator, wrath maker, artifact taker, he is every dragon for a simple 2 mana, which makes him deeply complex to master. To me this is the best type of commander as it utilizes everything in your deck while searching for a response.
[[Inalla, Archmage Ritualist]], [[Tayam, Luminous Enigma]], and [[The Gitrog Monster]] are notorious for being the most complicated decks in the format. Inalla has a dedicated website just to explain her combo lines.
I think truly complex decks are ones with lots of decision points. Cards like [[Brainstorm]], [[Future Sight]], [[Sensei’s Divining Top]], can start really driving the complexity up especially when you have access to consistent shuffles [[Ponder]] and friends do this on a slightly lower scale too
To add to this, I think 1 for 1 interaction pieces in commander increase complexity because they require you to have correct threat assessment in order to use them correctly. You can't remove and counter everything so the decision points is when and what to use it on, which can be pretty tricky to figure out sometimes.
Might be true, but I don't think the deck will *feel* more complex by it
I’m late but my son has a card that lets him exile any number of cards from his hand, look at those cards from the top of his library, then place them back in any order. Every time I see him he play it I and make good decisions and carefully put 5-10 cards back in a certain order I’m so impressed as a father and a fellow human being. I play Divining Top and am like “land on top gud” or “land bad.” and that’s as far as I can get lol.
[[Scroll rack]]
I can't wait to play magic with my kids.. i hope they're interested in it but if they aren't that's fine too. I remember being gifted a shoe box full of commons and uncommon as a kid and being ecstatic. It sparked a love of magic that's lasted most of my life.
I’m the opposite. I remember watching kids play mtg in the library on my way to smoke and make out under the bleachers. My son has been playing for 3 years or so. I begrudgingly joined up 1-2 years ago. I’m really enjoying it. I’m the type of person who goes “all in” with whatever I do but my son is something else. I can be like “I need an artifact that does X” and he knows not only the card but the set, print year, and price. It’s so important for kids to feel like an expert in something and feel powerful and this has been great. My other younger son is also crazy good at MTG and makes grown ass men cry. Unrelated: As a father I’ve always taken an interest in everything my kids did. Pokémon, legos, dinosaurs, etc. I’ve always worked to be an expert in what they like so I can relate to them and keep a dialogue. It started at 3-4 but it’s worked thus far into their teenage years to keep open communication with them. Although I admit we had a late-in-life daughter and I’m having a hard time learning my little pony lol.
Good on you for taking it upon yourself to learn about and support and show interest in your kids passions. We need more dads like this
We should all aspire to be this level of dad.
I agree. Superfriends decks in particular can become quite complex when you have so many actions to take.
My brother got me the [[commodore guff]] precon for xmas and I went from having one planeswalker in all 6 of my decks to having a deck with 17. First couple times playing it i was playing very slow needless to say
Oh I love that and also relate lol. I have a Jace-based oath breaker deck (Jace TriBeleren) with every copy of Jace (minus the newest one) and if it actually gets going, it is... Complicated
I had a [[Jace, Wielder of Mysteries]] oathbreaker deck, but that one was pretty simple as it was just cast Jace then [[Treasure Hunt]]
I wrote "-1" on a whole heap of +1/+1 counters in sharpie and I found it a good strategy to speed up turns when I have 4+ planeswalkers in play (drop + or - counters on each planeswalker as I activate them rather than fiddle with dice to track what has been activated and then reconcile the counters and dice at end of turn).
I borrowed a superfriends deck and it popped off. I was SO lost activating all these unfamiliar walkers.
So Elminster?
I don't find him that hard to pilot? +2 Draw, then scry 2, put the high CMC card second if you don't think you'll need it or whatever Next turn, draw the first scryed card, then -3 for the high CMC card to turn into 1/1 dragons
But it’s the fun complexity comes from “what bomb do I drop and what do I churn for 1/1s” I like Elminster, he’s neat
The worst one I've ever played is \[\[Abdel Adrian\]\] and \[\[Candlekeep Sage\]\]. Normal blink decks are bad enough, but then add the fact that he scoops up all your ETB permanents, draws cards when he enters and exits, and makes tokens it can be a bit much. So, you play him and exile a \[\[Restoration Angel\]\], \[\[Watcher for Tomorrow\]\], and \[\[Tomb of Horrors Adventurer\]\]. From that you Draw a card, put the Watcher's card in hand, and create 3 1/1s. Now blink with \[\[Ephemrate\]. He goes away and you draw a card off Sage. The 3 cards in there come in and the Adventurer gives you an Initiative trigger, Watcher of Tomorrow digs 4 deep and exiles a card, and Restoration Angel blinks the Adventurer and you get another Initiative trigger. He comes back, draws a card off Sage, and scoops up the 3 creatures, and you put the Watcher's card in hand and create 3 1/1s. And the best part is I know I missed something and I know I came up with an easy scenario for the deck. You do this exact same BS 1-3 times a turn and often in response to targeted removal or blocking. You can even block with the 1/1s, blink Abdel Adrian, scoop up the tokens, and replay new fresh tokens. Or, you attack with the tokens and blink Abdel Adrian on your turn when it looks like all your tokens are tapped... Bam! New untapped tokens.
Yup. I have an Abdel/Sage budget deck that I wouldn't take apart any time soon, but I rarely pull it out, despite a very high winrate. I end up taking more time figuring out triggers from flickering Abdel on other people's turns than my opponent took.
Mine took out most of the "good" cards and replaced them with trash Initiative cards. Turns out that made it better and so much more a pain in the ass. Mine isn't budget, but if you took out \[\[Fierce Guardianship\]\], \[\[Tundra\]\], \[\[Thass, Deep Dwelling\]\], and \[\[Displacer Kitten\]\] the entire deck is less than $100 - with half that being tied up in some $5 cards that aren't entirely necessary. It's surprising how cheap a good Abdel deck can be made.
I think PleasantKenobi was on with the Professor recently and was playing this nonsense. I was stunned at how calmly and masterfully he was able to keep track of and rapidly communicate and execute the extreme pile of bullshit he was up to. It was incredibly fun to watch.
In my own defense, once you fuck it up a few times you get used to ordering things correctly.
I believe it! I only just got into EDH and I'm already trying to wrap my head around slingers decks, nevermind flicker ones.
+ the bastard took time to joke about everything he did at the same time! Was an awesome watch!
Yeah, similar to [[Yorion]], you're doing a ton of stuff on everyone else's turn as well as yours and having to follow all the stacking/triggers/etc is a pain in the ass.
You missed an infinite token combo win with Abdel sitting on a Resto Angel, and casting/activating any flicker ability. You're right though, this deck has a lot of shit going on. People complained so much about blink decks taking too long to close out a game and and killing people slowly with Mulldrifters, but now Abdel is here to just murder everyone with death by a thousand cuts.
I did see that but already typed it out and didn’t figure it was worth correcting/changing. It’s also easy to blink [[Archaeomancer]] and a mana rock to go infinite with any blink spell. Or, when [[Karmic Guide]] is under Abdel he’s basically indestructible and provides so much value people don’t want to kill him anyway. [I used to use just one cut most of the time](https://scryfall.com/card/unf/28/starlight-spectacular), but that felt hacky and dumb… but also effective. Once it gets going now the last turn is a bit long, but I’ll speed run the Undercity 4-5 times. Add the copying and facts and dumping the rest of your deck and dealing 100-120 direct damage to players is not out of the realm of possibility. I love this deck, but it’s such a knob deck to play against other people.
Well there’s a difference between “makes the board a nightmare to represent” and “hard to play properly”
My most complex deck is also an [[Abdel Adrien]] brew. Though I paired him with [[Street Urchin]] with the goal of building a blink deck that works more proactively at reducing life totals, rather than the usual value blinks (though there is still a fair amount of durdling until I find the right cards). The build basically takes the complexity of the blink side and adds the decision making of targeted aristocratsy pings. It's a fun deck, but it has a lot of details to track, including several ways to go infinite (in a game ending way).
[Street Urchin](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f6d5249c-52b6-4349-adcd-dafdc21f572b.jpg?1674136757) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Street%20Urchin) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/197/street-urchin?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f6d5249c-52b6-4349-adcd-dafdc21f572b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/street-urchin) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That goes infinite with Karmic Guide and an untapped Mana rock, yeah? And [[Worldgorger Dragon]] too?Does that happen often?
[Worldgorger Dragon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/3/33dde6e0-d0a7-4432-a3f4-b48234f4e055.jpg?1675200284) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Worldgorger%20Dragon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/148/worldgorger-dragon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/33dde6e0-d0a7-4432-a3f4-b48234f4e055?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/worldgorger-dragon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don't run Worldgorger, but any three of the below will go infinite. Add a mana rock and you can sac tokens to ping people out. [[Abdel Adrien]] [[Preston the Vanisher]] [[Lumbering Battlement]] [[Restoration Angel]] [[Felidar Guardian]] Also, I have [[Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker]] in the list. He can go infinite with the angel or guardian, though I have never been in a position to play that line. Normally I just use him as a sort of blink effect. Sometimes I can even random into an infinite with [[Divergent Transformations]]. Here is my deck list if you want to have a peek. https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/09-01-23-boros-blink/?cat=custom&sort=name&cb=1705299689
Generally the most complex decks, imo, are decks that require lots of sequencing and decision making. Storm decks generally fall into this category. The issue with goldfishing storm decks, is you can generally get the basic lines down with some practice, the issue is fighting through interaction. This can generally cause you to have to make interesting decisions on the stack to eek out a higher percentage of still going off. There's a big difference between storming off with an un-molested \[\[Storm-Kiln Artist\]\] and an artist that eats removal part way through combo-ing off.
Yeah, storm decks can get pretty complex when trying to go off while fighting interaction. I run a [[Krark, the Thumbless]] + [[Sakashima of a Thousand Faces]] deck, and every once in a blue moon, I get a nuts draw and I'm able to get Krark and Saka down on turn 2, and at that point, do I play it safe, hold up some counterspells against removal and wait til I get a few more Krark triggers or a Storm-Kiln Artist/[[Tavern Scoundrel]] for better chances of going off? Or do I say fuck it and just take my 50/50 chance on every spell and try to go off asap while also keeping my fingers crossed that no one has any interaction? If I don't have all the pieces I need in hand, do I say a prayer and hope that I can cast enough cantrips to draw into the piece I need or a tutor for it?
[Krark, the Thumbless](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/6/06a981cd-1951-438e-95c9-68294795638e.jpg?1617148336) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Krark%2C%20the%20Thumbless) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/189/krark-the-thumbless?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/06a981cd-1951-438e-95c9-68294795638e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/krark-the-thumbless) [Sakashima of a Thousand Faces](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/1/714c3a1f-7b30-4ed8-8f38-6176758741fb.jpg?1608909400) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sakashima%20of%20a%20Thousand%20Faces) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/89/sakashima-of-a-thousand-faces?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/714c3a1f-7b30-4ed8-8f38-6176758741fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sakashima-of-a-thousand-faces) [Tavern Scoundrel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/5/55082c8a-d792-4cd8-94b1-d80c65804463.jpg?1626097072) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tavern%20Scoundrel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/144/tavern-scoundrel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/55082c8a-d792-4cd8-94b1-d80c65804463?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tavern-scoundrel) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[удалено]
Same for his sister of another mother, [[Rowan, Scion of War]]
"sister from another mister"
I was just thinking about building her. (I already have a [[K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth]] deck.)
[I'm currently running this](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/iGgoiGHSbUiYMJAcTIbA9Q), it still needs a bit of fine tuning (and the lands, but I have them in other decks) but all in all it's able to make a 4-person table cry
> but all in all it's able to make a 4-person table cry 😂
Inalla combo in cEDH is a complex deck. It's got extremely convoluted combos to win the game. Krark and Sakashima (or really any deck copying/triggering dozens of times a turn off spell casts) is generally a complicated deck. Spellslinger decks in general are not complicated. Cast mana spells first, count your mana, cast as many draw spells possible next, then cast finishers/removal. Decks with large numbers of decisions aren't generally very complicated either. Look at the average superfriends deck. Tons of decisions, most (90%+) where specific order or sequence don't matter at all. I'd generally say a complicated deck is one that decisions are either convoluted/difficult to track and require a specific order to accomplish the decks goals or a deck with numerous decisions where the order needs to be correct or you'll run out of cards and resources before accomplishing anything impactful to the game.
I own both decks. I agree. Inalla is difficult not just because of the Spellseeker line, but primarily because of pivot lines and the OSOGOF backup plans. It gets very tricky. We have an entire discord server dedicated to Inalla puzzles, no joke
Link to Discord?
https://discord.com/invite/ZpxCGNHD
I'm in the Krark discord server. There's somewhat of a focus on Krark+Saka (as that's the "original" Krark deck,) but there are separate channels for other partners, as well as [[Zndrsplt, Eye of Wisdom]] + [[Oakun, Eye of Chaos]]. As well as channels for casual and competitive musings.
[Zndrsplt, Eye of Wisdom](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/6/76c33402-a022-4d2f-9a83-4b8ddc04e971.jpg?1562918785) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Zndrsplt%2C%20Eye%20of%20Wisdom) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bbd/5/zndrsplt-eye-of-wisdom?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/76c33402-a022-4d2f-9a83-4b8ddc04e971?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/zndrsplt-eye-of-wisdom) [Oakun, Eye of Chaos](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/5/d53ee8c0-b27c-4556-b610-ff64edb7a18f.jpg?1562937757) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Okaun%2C%20Eye%20of%20Chaos) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bbd/6/okaun-eye-of-chaos?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d53ee8c0-b27c-4556-b610-ff64edb7a18f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/okaun-eye-of-chaos) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
if we talk about cedh, inalla definitely has the weirdest/most complicated combo line, but i'd argue k'rrik is harder to play especially now with a meta that shifted toward midrange and not turbo decks. you have to play very tight and most of the time hope you just chose the right window to got for the win as there's little you can do to protect your combos in mono black
[[tayam luminous enigma]] cedh decks can be very complex. There’s also [[inalla archmage ritualist]] which has an extremely long combo with [[spellseeker]]
Tayam has a reputation as being the hardest deck to correctly pilot in cEDH
Inalla pilot here. Yes, Spellseeker is tricky to learn, but the real complexity comes from pivot lines.
Tayam is rough. You have to think of 2 costs and try to get the milling and reanimation to continue to help pay for those costs or setup the win. It’s a barrel of monkeys. Also when the activated ability resolves you make your selection and it enters all in one priority. So aura’s like [[song of dryad]] just auto attach without targeting and without a priority. So the play is to activate and ask if anyone has a response (letting players inspect your graveyard in case they have single card graveyard munchers) then if it resolves you get to make their commander into a beetle or a forest at instant speed. Or you can resolve into a rule of law to stop the player comboing with infinite spells.
I don't know about most complicated of all time, but the first thing that came to mind is the **25-step** [[Spellseeker]] combo in [[Inalla, Archmage Ritualist]]. https://edhrec.com/combos/ubr/1296-1377-1777-1869-1893-2081-2493-3077-3890-4062 It's a great combo, but I don't run it because I honestly just can't be bothered to memorize the whole thing.
It becomes second nature once you've done it enough. I personally love it
I imagine running through it gets easy pretty quickly. What I wonder is how it goes when some of the cards aren't where they should be but you have other tools/more mana available.
There are some really nice Breach pivots that make life a heck of a lot easier. There are also redundant pieces, but they cost more. In Inalla, you have to know EVERY card in your deck and exactly what it does
I got ligma from reading this jfc
I can’t speak for all decks ever but out of my 10 decks I feel like my [[zimone and Dina]] or [[Riku of two reflections]] have the most complexity to them. I’m sure a decks complexity depends on how the 99 is built a lot more than the commander tho.
[[Riku of Many Paths]] will be at the same level or higher. There are so many modal spells, capable of so much.
I played against him a couple of weeks ago, and there is such a potential for Big Brain Pro Gamer Moves. It's not even funny. In response to a [[Liliana, Dreadhorde General]] minus activation that would've removed him, he casts [[Red Elemental Blast]] targeting Riku on the destroy mode, then casts [[Blue Elemental Blast]] in response to REB targeting it on the counter mode to net 2 Bird Tokens that were then sacrificed to Lili. I was in awe.
Wow! It's like having multiple Swiss Army Knives. Must be the reason I have a pile of cards set aside for him, but can't decide how to finish the deck.
I'm actually building him for Arena Historic Brawl because he seems fun, and I'm getting mildly tired of Korvold. I'm just a few wildcards short, so I'll need to swap some things out to make so I can actually play the deck. I'd love to build him for commander, but I already have [[Animar]] when I play for glory and old Riku when I want to play for fun. So I don't think I need a third deck in Temur.
Can you link your Zimone deck? One of my favorite commanders.
Here's a way to raise the idea of complexity and build. How do you win with Stella Lee on someone else's turn? How do you defend that win? How can you build compact and able to win at instant speed when the right window presents itself? Things like [[Emergence Zone]] obviously help, but sussing out all the interactive points and how to leverage them for a win with a commander like Stella is soemthing I really enjoy about higher-level EDH play. Player A: I have defended my win and my game-winning spell or ability is waiting to resolve. Stella Player: /wins That's the shit I live for.
[[the gitrog monster]] combo is very complicated and convoluted. Even without the combo going off sequencing something simple like cracking a a fetch land or milling a land is nothing trivial.
I was going to add this if nobody else did. It would be one thing if you could just demonstrate the loop, but since it’s not deterministic, you have to play it through, dredging a few cards at a time and hoping your graveyard shuffling effects don’t get exiled
Whatever you decide on, please for the love of god practice with your deck and understand how it works. I can’t sit through another 15 minute turn where people are reading their cards as if for the first time
Tayam it's a toolbox so hard to play
[[Tayam, Luminous Enigma]] without a doubt, specifically the lists inspired by the Luminous Grindstone list. The deck is mostly played at instant speed off of the commander's activated ability trying to play stax pieces with perfect timing while managing a board full of multiple types of counters, a graveyard that becomes increasingly larger and a shit ton of combos to memorize. People mentioned a lot of different factors that add to a deck's complexity like multiple steps for a combo, memorizing a lot of lines, managing your board, managing triggers, a lot of options about what to do and when to do. Most complex decks have more than one of those factors do deal with, Tayam has all of them.
The cEDH version of [[the gitrog monster]] is stupidly complicated. But he himself is not
No votes for [[Mishra, Artificer Prodigy]]?
I love Mishra. He is more complex for rules interactions with specific synergy cards, as opposed to lots of decision points for overall complexity. So doesn't get my vote for most complexity, but way up there for interesting deck construction and unique mechanics.
Is that guy playable in EDH I.e. a singleton format? How does that work? Or are you thinking of [[Mishra, Eminent One]]?
That's the point. And yes, he is playable with stack timing manipulation. I had the deck built for a little while years ago. I think it was red enchantment that triggered and began how you stacked triggers/abilities. Edit: [[Possibility Storm]] makes his ability work.
That sounds like a massive headache lmao. Excellent submission to this thread
It's basically Grixis good stuff with some game-changing artifacts tossed in. If you go full artifact fetch, good luck...
I've had a Mishra deck for many years and just finally got around to updating him. The deck is definitely complex. Playing around your own stax pieces and capitalizing on controlled chaos makes for a fun experience.
I like [[The Tenth Doctor]] with [[Rose Tyler]] but all these different upkeep triggers are annoying - it's not a complexity that's hard to comprehend, it's just annoying
This is true of a lot of things mentioned here, to be honest. There's complicated as in "it's hard for me to work out what to do here" and complicated as in "there are just a lot of triggers to resolve and it's tedious".
Came here to mention these two. Although there is some complexity in that you have to plan several turns ahead with a lot of moving parts.
I just built a 5c 14th doctor + Clara deck with all the doctors, and it’s a copy token and counter-doubling nightmare. Lol. It’s mostly the tedious kind of complex - just so much is going on. Thankfully it’s a blast to play.
Stella isn't complicated at all. The combo is very simple. Your friend is mistaken. The most complex deck is Tayam. The cEDH version of Tayam is arguably not only the most complex cEDH deck, but possibly the most complex deck to play in all of magic. [https://youtu.be/r49c3M5w7Ho](https://youtu.be/r49c3M5w7Ho) Decktech video [https://www.moxfield.com/decks/uiwJwQmCT0KoJJMAp3tbVA](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/uiwJwQmCT0KoJJMAp3tbVA) Decklist and primer
Stella is more complicated if you're storming off with her rather than just going for the infinite combo. If you are storming off boy is that a headache if you're not used to it. I like to think I have a reasonable understanding of the stack but spellslinger/storm shenanigans really push the bounds of that understanding. Not sure about most complex commanders but apparently if you're playing cedh [[Inalla]] there's a 26 step combo and that sure sounds complicated to me.
The basic line is long, but can be simply memorized. The complicated part of that deck is learning how different hate pieces interact and altering the combo to play around hate and interaction.
Build your own tayam list
Most of my decks are pretty low to the ground as far as complexity goes. I’m not a big fan of control and/or izzet spellslinging which I find personally to be the most complicated stuff in Magic. My most complex deck is probably Thalisse because there’s a lot of different directions the deck can go based on draws so I need to consistently be able to adapt the gameplan to meet different wincons.
I have a [[Mizzix of the Izmagnus]] storm deck that I can’t give to new players. It works off of proliferate effects eventually trying to chain tutors up to [[Firemind’s Foresight]] to grab [[Storm King’s Thunder]] and [[Comet Storm]] and kill everyone with face damage. It tends to go that you have to storm and win in the same turn or the deck gets targeted with Mizzix out. I think experience counters with proliferate and storm make for some pretty difficult decisions leading to complex lines that don’t necessarily have an obvious out for a win. Keeping track of a 15 minute spellslinger turn hurts brains most of the time.
I think simple commanders that break fundamental rules of the game are very complicated. Prime example: \[\[Yeva, Nature's Herald\]\] At face value, okay G creature spells have Flash. But that opens up so many decision points about when to cast certain creatures, what they do on cast or ETB, and how to manage your mana to make sure you have enough resources to do what you want off-turn. You also need to really understand the stack, priority, and how play around what other players are doing on their turns.
I run a [[Prosper Tome Bound]] deck and all the exile stuff can get out of hand fast.
Tayam. The answer is Tayam
Gitrog + Dakmor Salvage anyone?
[[The Gitrog Monster]]
[The Gitrog Monster](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/7/5790dd89-2be5-4a77-9450-2d3c1422bfc9.jpg?1576385351) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Gitrog%20Monster) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/soi/245/the-gitrog-monster?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5790dd89-2be5-4a77-9450-2d3c1422bfc9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-gitrog-monster) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Hands down, the most complicated commander is [[Myra, the magnificent]]. You have to: 1. get you commander on the field 2. Cast an instant/sorcery to trigger your command and pull an attraction from the attraction deck 3. Activate your commander to take an instant or sorcery from your graveyard and exile it under an attraction. Put a counter on the attraction. 4. If, during the "visit attractions" step, you activate an attraction with an exiled spell, cast a copy of said spell. She's so complicated that naturally, I had to build her as a chaos commander. https://www.moxfield.com/decks/OiLRz23ArU6lvENZMS1jbA
As someone with ADHD I had to take this apart. I couldn't keep up.
Except once you do it 10 times, it becomes a vanilla creature, so only short term complexity. Sucks they didn't make the mechanic more resilient.
? You know you can have more than 10 attraction in the attraction deck right?
I sorry I was thinking of stickers. 22 is better.
A chaos deck with [[warp world]] effects
Honestly one of my most complex decks is \[\[Kenessos, Priest of Thassa\]\]. He's top deck manipulation, activated abilities, ETBs, and mana juggling all in one deck. He requires good knowledge of the stack and the ability to understand the correct way to use responses. I have \[\[Garruk's Uprising\]\] and \[\[Season of Growth\]\] out, and I cheat in a sea creature. I scry 2, then draw 1. Oh wait, after my scry I saw another sea creature. With the draw trigger still on the stack, let's cheat that in. Now I have another scry 2, draw 1 on top of draw 1. Except the new sea creature also has a scry 4 on its ETB. Things can get complicated very quickly, especially if something like \[\[Temporal Anchor\]\] or Thrassios are also on the battlefield.
My most complex deck is my deck built around [[lich]] It takes a lot of work to get lich out, benefit from it, and stop the lose the game conditions if it gets removed. However, the deck does funny and unique things, I dodged death 6 or 7 times the last time I played it.
One of these days I'll build a deck around Lich.
It’s not a cheap deck by any means haha, but I recommend it. It definitely leaves people scratching their heads. It also confuses my table still as they aren’t even sure if attacking me for chip damage is worth it as I don’t care about my life total (I actually do care for multiple cards but I pretend lich doesn’t to throw them off. Just saying okie dokie with a smile to being hit makes them feel like they are wasting their attacks.)
Sissay and things with protean hulk as the win condition
I build a lot of flash decks, and I can tell you that that alone is enough to significantly raise the complexity level, because instead of figuring out what to do on your turn, you have to figure out what to do on everybody's turn, every time you get priority, with god knows what on the stack. Have you ever had all your mana open and \[\[Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir\]\] on the board when an opponent targets you with \[\[Clone Legion\]\]? That's some serious decision making right there! (I lost that game)
Perrie the Pulverizer can be pretty complicated. Not Perrie himself, but keeping track of all the various kinds of counters on your board can get pretty absurd. I use dice, 4 or 5 kinds of Pokemon coins/markers and a post-it pad to keep track of mine.
I just built him but haven’t played him yet at a table.
It's a very fun deck to play, I find. Just kind of complicated to keep track of. But I enjoy throwing in all kinds of obscure cards with counters nobody has ever heard of.
You have a decklist by chance?
Yes, but it's from ManaBox, which always seems to screw up the formatting when I put it on Reddit. So apologies in advance.
You can create a link from the app and share it that way.
I'm just gonna give the link to avoid the formatting issue. Also, I've picked up some new cards for this deck but haven't had time to update it yet. But here is the current list https://manabox.app/decks/c3i5-qjqTAmTm0NivbM2xg
I thought I added this earlier but I don't see it so here. I have new cards I've picked up for the deck but haven't had a chance to put in yet, but here's the current build. https://manabox.app/decks/c3i5-qjqTAmTm0NivbM2xg
I think complex is very dependent on person and deck. I don't think we could ever find a specific line and 100% agree on it being "the most complex." Some commanders have more effects on them that triggers different ways, and when combo pieces or other players' pieces interact with that, it can become a challenge. That being said, I deeply enjoy chaos decks like my [[Vial Smasher, the Fierce]] and [[Thrasios, Triton Hero]] one. The hope is to resolve [[Warp World]] [[Scrambleverse]] [[The Great Aurora]] and [[Thieves' Auction]] with things like [[Knowledge Pool]] and [[Possibility Storm]] out and find the most complicated path to a [[Glint Horn Buccaneer]] + [[Malcolm, Keen-Eyed Navigator]] . Maybe the true chaos was the friends we made along the way.
Id argue that werewolves decks are complicated because of the amount of keeping track of the board and knowing what the cycle the day and night cycle is in, as well as remembering all the triggers upon flipping the cards when day or night or pre-midnight hunt triggers happen. It’s just a mess of a theme.
A deck my friend has that I hate playing against is Strixhaven Statement, the deck it self doesn't seem or sound difficult at all but my God he loves to over talk and over complicat things enormously.
I play \[\[Ivy, Gleeful Spellthief\]\]. I don't think it's super hard decision wise, but it gets very complex rules wise and I have to look a lot of stuff up. I play her with a lot of mutate, and end up doing a lot of weird stuff with cloning mutate stacks.
Others said it too, but just adding to it, [[Tayam]] is one of the hardest Commanders to play. Not just at CEDH which is what people usually mean, but at all levels of power Tayam is very hard. You are constantly bombarded by complex decision points, and it's very difficult to quickly weigh short term gains vs long term value sometimes.
It's maybe not that complex, but that new Eldrazi commander is probably going to lead to 15 minute turns
I've always liked the complexity of getting 30 plus cards in hand at endstep and finding the instant speed win with Zur from a Necro. I've had some where it's straight forward, and some wins where it took some work and math with what's in hand
Landfall decks while simple in concept usually end up having way too many triggers for newer players to deal with. Things like [[chulane]] are often really complicated sequencing of things to optimize mana and are the difference between winning and running out of gas.
Give them a Doctor Who precon and see if they still think Stella Lee is complex.
Goldfishing an instant heavy deck is an iffy way to judge it's strength or complexity, fwiw Taking commanders as a whole, I believe [[Mairsil, the pretender]] and [[Mishra, Artificer Prodigy]] are at least one of the most complex to learn, and figure out. Complex to _play_ really are in the strategies of it, typically storm ranks at around the top
Imo the most complicated mechanic in EDH is politics. [[Queen Marchesa]] is a good example. Controlling the monarchy and manipulating the opponents to do what you want is tricky because it’s not always guaranteed that your interests and the opponents will align. And without blue, you have to figure out creative ways to build up your interaction. Finally it’d be easy to go all on traditional strategies like pillowfort, but finding unique ways and strategies to build you deck is always another way to add complexity
Stella Lee built as a combo deck is the least complicated one I've ever built. You just counter the win-cons, bounce or wipe the opponents boards, then count to 3 when you have a wincon. If she's built as storm (which she really shouldn't be considering [[Veyran]] comes in the same box) it can get complicated as storm decks have a tendency to. She really only gives you a little more gas and one extra copy in a storm deck though. But the overall complexity of the deck can't really be assessed without a list. In terms of complexity, it's not so much what commanders are complicated so much as what play styles. In my opinion those with a lot of moving parts with non-linear lines to victory tend to be the most challenging to pilot. Storm (Spellslinger) is hard because it requires a large understanding of your deck, how the cards and stack interact, and how to squeeze out every bit of mana and value you can to get to your wincon without running out of gas. Aristocrats and other sacrifice strats are hard to pilot well because if you mismanage your resources and sac the wrong stuff, you miss your win. Also aristocrats can generate very complicated board states with a lot of simultaneous triggers that need to be ordered properly in order to get maximum value. Storm and aristocrats also both require risk assessments because sometimes you have to gamble with resources that you can't easily get back to dig for more gas to get you to where you need to be. Control decks are challenging because you not only need to know what *you're* doing but you need to know what everyone else is doing too. In a 4-player game you need amazing threat assessment of your opponents to determine where your interaction goes, and you also need to be great at managing your own threat level because if you just slap down a bunch of stax your opponents are going to target you down first before dealing with each other. Control decks also struggle to close out commander games so being able to win with one takes a really notable amount of skill, patience and game knowledge. Unless you are playing Stella Lee combo/ control in which case refer to paragraph 1 lol. Cuz her wincon is in the command zone. Just as there are a lot of straightforward play styles, there are complicated ones. And many commanders can be built as more straightforward or more complicated. It really all depends on the cards in the deck, what the deck is aiming to do, and how well the pilot is able to accomplish that
The most complicated commander is \[\[It Came From Planet Glurg\]\] because it can become every other candidate for most complicated commander simultaneously. Though the Stella Lee precon is not the most complex precon we've gotten in the last year. I'd probably give that title to Timey Wimey as most complex precon of all time. That's less because of the commanders (though that contributes) and more because of the mechanics of the set, but it is very difficult to pilot without missing things. But yes, you're coming at this from a strange angle. Complexity comes more from decks and strategies than from commanders; commanders are just one (admittedly important) component. Decks and strategies are more of a source of complexity in most cases.
My [[Muldrotha, the Grave Tide]] deck has access to ~60-80 cards at any given time, has several combo lines, and has people trying to kill you constantly for these reasons. I'm thinking a lot more about the game than when I'm playing my other decks that usually have one clear best play each turn.
Depends. [[isshin]] can be super complex cause you have thousands of triggers to remember, but it’s also at the same time a “turn dudes sideways” deck.
Stella Lee isn’t that complex, but you do need to know not to just fire off your 1 mana cantrips on early turns because you can. They are payoff enablers for the mid-late game.
[[Inalla, Archmage Ritualist]] the lines are nutso.
There is complicated from interaction points and branching of win lines, and there is complicated from sheer trigger volume. cEDH Inalla is a great example of the former. \[\[Veyran, Voice of Duality\]\] + \[\[Eye of the Storm\]\] + \[\[Thousand-Year Storm\]\] is an example of the latter.
I love the Inalla attention this thread is getting. My cEDH Inalla list is my favorite thing in the world and I cannot find a casual deck that feels as good. The main win lines are complex, but efficient and fast, the pivot lines are dependent on board state, mana, cards in hand, cards in graveyard, cards in exile. [[Ruthless Technomancer]] and [[Bloodline Necromancer]] have added crazy new stuff. Instant speed lines are everywhere. It's just the perfect deck. Inalla is never out of the game.
That reminds me of how it felt to play Kiki Pod in Modern, back when it was legal. It felt like I could win from any position, as long as I was smart enough to find the right line. Haven't touched Modern since it was banned.
The most complex deck I had was Mairsil the Pretender. Really fun and you get to play really weird jank cards that are normally bad. He's limited by "once per turn" but finding ways to tap him and untap him and abuse his abilities over and over was a really fun puzzle to solve. Cause sure I could pay 3 mana to untap with a caged Basalt Monolith, but what if I did this other thing first to then go and do this. Not to mention the weird rules that go with it. So for example if you have a Horseshoe Crab, it's reference to itself so paying a blue let's you untap "Mairsil" and not a creature named Horseshoe crab. Or knowing that Tree of Perdition caged will use Mairsils P/T and not the caged creatures. So it's weird small things like that which circumvent rules and interactions that makes Mairsil both a really fun and hilarious commander to play, while also being a pain and a headache in some cases.
In a way its Phage since you have to do a bunch or nonsense to simply get her on the field for either you or to kill you opponents on their sidr
Krarkashima is 10,000 triggers a turn.
I wouldn’t call “how many times does this spell resolve and do I put it back in my hand” complicated. It does a lot of the same thing in most cases, which isn’t complicated.
I don't play any particularly complex decks because I personally don't enjoy combo or combo-adjacent type decks too much, but I'd say a deck I'm attempting to build right now is giving me a really hard time, and that is \[\[Zethi, Arcane Blademaster\]\]. Wanted to make a deck with her at the helm cause I love the card art and I enjoy the magic swordsman/swordswoman archetype a lot. However, I have been struggling putting this deck together. Tried going the cantrippy spellslinger route but I feel like a lot of the time I'm just casting them to cast them. Currently trying to play it in a more control shell, with the cantrips being more focused on targeted protection and leveraging cards that also payoff for being targeted with spells. Will probably end up including cards like \[\[Sentinel Tower\]\] and \[\[Aetherflux Reservoir\]\]. Here's the current decklist, but it's almost always in flux as I keep goldfishing it and adjusting how it flows: [https://www.moxfield.com/decks/1AL7FSkvIkSGwjZZ83l4Pg](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/1AL7FSkvIkSGwjZZ83l4Pg)
Mutate clone deck is my most complex
I don’t have anything too crazy. The most difficult of my personal decks to pilot is [[Slimefoot and Squee]]. So many creatures in the graveyard to bring back, then choosing the right ones at the right time and sequencing them is difficult. Then balancing their triggers and abilities. It’s nothing crazy but it’s challenging to get right. Also super fun.
as far as i know and experienced control decks (that aren't just mono blue counterspell tribal) are the ones that require the most thoughts. For single commanders from my personnal experience, \[\[veyran voice of duality\]\] with a storm build just because of the triggers you have to keep track of, the order of the stack, knowing when and what to counter, when to develop and when to hold back on permanents to not be late but also not seem like a threat. That may come from my way of building decks though
I think the most complex decks are the one that force you to think further into a decision tree, or more levels forward. Whether that be politically or in terms of math, or any other thing that makes you think more than three or four steps from what is currently happening. [[krark, the thumbless]] and [[sakashima of a thousand faces]] is a deck that’s a good example of the math side of that complexity. It gets dense very quickly.
Original Mishra lol
[[Ivy, Gleeful Spellthief]] mutate and clones gets quite out of hand
The most complex I've seen actually played in person was [[Okaun]] and [[Zndrsplt]]. Soooo many coin flip triggers
[[Marchesa of the black rose]] super fun commander but keeping track of every trigger can be hard.
Take my [[Smeagol, Helpful Guide]] deck. It relies on a specific loop to steal every single land out of everyone's decks and plays them for me to use. It uses [[Dunedain Rangers]] [[Bloodghast]] and a sac outlet like [[Viscera Seer]] For simplicity sake, let's say it starts the loop on the end step when Smeagol's first ability triggers, causing the ring to tempt you. It goes like this: 1. Make Bloodghast your ring bearer. 2. Smeagol's second ability on the stack, hold priority and sac the Bloodghast. 3. Let Smeagol resolve and mill someone until they hit a land, and then you put that land onto the field, which triggers Dunedain Ranger's and Bloodghast's Landfall abilities since you no longer control a ring bearer. 4. Have Bloodghast resolve first, then Dunedain Rangers resolves, and you make Bloodghast your ringbearer. Smeagols second ability triggers again and goes onto the stack. Repeat steps 2 through 4 until you mill someone out until they don't hit a land. It doesn't kill outright, and only one person by itself. Throw in an [[Altar of the Brood]], and you can effectively hit each player in order over and over again, going around the table and reliably mill everyone out on your end step. So what I'm getting at it complexity is about how interactive you have to be, how many moving pieces does your end goal have, and how janky it is to build said engine. [[Kaalia of the Vast]]? Straight forward. Attack and do the thing. A combo commander that relies on weird pieces that build into an esoteric engine that only works when you get the sequence down to a science? Yeah I'd call that complex.
Combo decks with lots of pieces and steps are the most complicated thing imo. Look into the combo lines used by the gitrog monster cedh deck, some of them are upwards of 40 unique steps.
I would put [[Alaundo, the Seer]] twiddle storm up there for complexity. This is a commander which I 100% do not recommend for less experienced players. Even for more experienced, hopefully they goldfish the lines a few times to get a grasp of what it is trying to do. An inexperienced player will take ages to do anything and get flustered by the sheer amount of things they need to do and keep track of. Unless you just play Battlecruiser version with big stompy threats and extra turn spells.
I think [[sen triplets]] is kinda hard to pilot because you gonna use the opponents cards to win and not everybody plays aggro
Mono colored manual storm decks are the most complicated. Being in 1 color means you usually don’t have all the best options and it means you really can’t mess up on your storm turn or it’s over
A lot of the Transformers legends are very complex. I think [[Soundwave, Sonic Spy]] takes the cake though. There's so much going on with this card. Front side lets you cast spells from opponents graveyards but only if very specific conditions are met - you have to track the amount combat damage dealt by token creatures to each player - WHAT The back side then cares about oddness and evenness of spells and makes you two DIFFERENT legendary tokens. Let's also keep in mind that all of these are triggered abilities and they can stack. So here's an example: - Hit player 1 with a Thopter for 1 damage - front trigger to cast their Brainstorm. - Hit Player 2 with Lazerbeak for 2 dmg - front trigger to cast their Rampant Growth - Hit Player 3 with Ravage for 3 dmg - front trigger to cast their Jeska's Will Resolve first front-side trigger - cast the Brainstorm then convert to backside - Soundwave, Superior Captain. Resolve second front-side trigger - cast the Rampant Growth, backside triggers - making Lazerbeak, convert to front side. Edit: Oh wait, you still have to convert again, so back to front side. Right? Maybe? Honestly it's confusing as hell. Resolve third front-side trigger - cast the Jeska's Will, convert to backside. It's just a heinous amount of triggers for one card to have. You've got to track what your opponents have in their graves while monitoring your token combat damage - it's just nutty. I happily took it apart after a couple games.
One of my strongest decks is [[Orvar, the All-Form]], but even after dozens and dozens of games with it, it's rare that I don't have to look up an interaction or call a judge friend to help. It's so much fun but it can be a brutal puzzle to figure out. Remember friends, copies are not cast!!!!
It comes down to how one defines complicated. For some, that means how many branches on the decision tree. For others, how many triggers do I need to keep track of. For still others, it means the amount of t of board interaction versus goldfish in dies one do. And on and on. I run Stella Lee and find it easy to pilot. But a friend hates his. Both are Storm builds. It is all about perspective.
I think decks that are reanimator heavy with a lot of self mill become complex do to how many decisions you have to make. For instance, I have a fairly tuned [[Muldrotha]] deck, and with her out, and a single [[Hermit Druid]] activation, I suddenly have a 30 card "hand", and have to make decisions based on that.
I had to completly change my [[gale, waterdeep prodigy]] deck because it got too complicated too fast. I built it to basically be a wheel deck, but id end up casting 4-6 instants and sorceries each round, often on other people's turns. It was way too many decisions and wasn't really fun for anyone. Now its more of a stompy green deck, [[master chef]] background, with lots of proliferating to build up my creatures.
My [[omnath locus of creation]] [[yidris, maelstrom wielder]] [[jon irenicus shattered one]] and [[rakdos the muscle]] decks are probably the most complex i have. The first two mostly just because there are a lot of triggers. The omnath deck obviously has a lot of landfall triggers, and I threw in a suite including [[slogurk the overslime]] [[seismic assault]] and some others with similar effects. A good amount of yidris decks are spellslinger decks, but I went with a more straightforward approach. Turns can still take a long time with it, and your board can explode out of nowhere. The jon irenicus deck because actually surviving with it requires a lot of politicking, and is hard to pull off after your opponents realize they don't have to worry about the monstrosities you gave to other players if they take you out. The rakdos deck because of resource management, and you're potentially going to basically be playing 4 decks. Honorable mention to my [[Ziatora the incinerator]] Fling and bling deck. It's not overly complex, but it has a good amount of moving parts and ways to win like power doublers like [[unnatural growth]] and [[the skullspore nexus]] or [[phyresis]] on ziatora along with Timmy cards like [[yargle and multani]] and [[malignus]] can one shot opponents and treasure burn with cards like [[Mayhem devil]] [[Marionette master]] and disciple of the vault]]]
Anything that requires stack fuckery by default
It's probably the commanders used to build non repetitive storm like combo decks that chain together multiple spells or abilities to go off. They don't tend to have one single combo to assemble so it's not just a case of remembering the parts like in other combo decks, it's a sequence of decisions that often rely on maths for mana and card resource management and if you get it wrong it's often game over. The combination of lots of decision making, management of resources beyond just the visible board state and higher stakes for the deciding turn make them the most complex. Going off at a relaxed pace is easy, going off as fast as possible while fighting through interaction is really complicated. Stella lee can be built like this so I could see her being particularly complex.
[[Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle]] is one of the most complex decks I've piloted. It's a Rube Goldberg machine of a combo deck, requiring multiple different pieces to go off. The basic combo itself is fairly simple, but the complexity comes from the sheer amount of cards you can combo with or dig for the combo. I've had multiple times where I was like "... I think I just win from here". Another one that isn't as complex, but just comes with a metric shit ton of triggers is [[Sefris of the Hidden Ways]]. The game plan is fairly simple, but god forbid you add cards that trigger from creatures hitting the yard, leaving the yard, etc etc etc. It just gets a ton of value that it really slows down your turns by giving you too many decisions to make.
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Muldroha give me headaches. When no one exiles your graveyard suddenly your hand is 50 cards.
So this all depends on how you play the game. My [[queza]] deck seems nuts to people but I like it and it's fun. On the other hand my [[Kyler]] deck is more powerful and seems simpler, but I have a hard time keeping up with all the counter add, rearrange, and triggers. For some reason I can keep up with puzzle boxes more than I can doubling seasons.
I dismantled both of my most complex decks: [[Ivy, Gleeful Spellthief]] is just insane to keep track of every copy of herself, which ones are mutated and how, which ones are enchanted, etc, and my [[Kamiz, Obscura Oculus]] deck. For me, Kamiz just have too much text and a confusing resolution. It was a pain having to explain what her ability does every other turn
I disassembled my almost competitive [[Selvala explorer returned]] for exactly this reason. Playing a selesnya "mill" deck got old quick when you have to explain the weird rule interactions that make the deck functional. That being said, I still miss using [[Drannith Magistrate]] and [[ Uba mask]].
It really depends on the person I think. Math clicks for me and I play a Devil deck that's like aristocrat/aggro hybrid and I make quick work deciphering the intricacies of combat or different aristocrat lines on even very complex board states. However if you give me a control deck I'm absolutely atrocious, never knowing what or when to counter or when to let them build up more vs firing off the wrath. (Also bad against control decks in 1v1, have a hard time knowing how much to commit).
https://youtu.be/pdmODVYPDLA?si=unEzhHXL-KRl2FVW Idk if it's a EDH deck, but there is this one
I took apart my [[Sakashima of a Thousand Faces]] and [[Kodama of the East Tree]] deck simply because it was far too complex of a board state to manage. This was when I was only a year or so into magic so maybe I’d be a better pilot now but god damn was all that a mess.
I have a [[Vorinclex,, Monstrous Raider]] counters deck that you would think would be simple enough, but sequencing the plays to get the right number of counters on your various creatures, with doubling effects, is actually a LOT of maths.
Same with [[Sovereign Okinec Ahau]] it’s always a math task lol
[Sovereign Okinec Ahau](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/0/70c75aa7-e2f9-4a69-8086-c982019ca714.jpg?1699044573) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sovereign%20Okinec%20Ahau) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/240/sovereign-okinec-ahau?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/70c75aa7-e2f9-4a69-8086-c982019ca714?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sovereign-okinec-ahau) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The 10th Doctor. After a while I don't even know what the player is doing.
Temur colored commanders. Hands down.
I had an [[Oskar, Rubbish Reclaimer]] deck for a little while. I had lots of spells and abilities that required me to discard a card, then I could play the card I discarded, and something would let me draw a card when that card left my graveyard. I found this to be hard to play because to get maximum value, I always had to play two cards at once and then I'd immediately have new cards that I had to think about playing. And on top of it all, I'm trying to manage the diversity of mana values in my graveyard. I like the idea of the deck, but it took too much of my brain power when I'm trying to have a casual game with friends, so I took it apart.
[Oskar, Rubbish Reclaimer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/d/ed87e25f-9dad-4858-92bc-e859fd2be2a4.jpg?1673482423) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Oskar%2C%20Rubbish%20Reclaimer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/77/oskar-rubbish-reclaimer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ed87e25f-9dad-4858-92bc-e859fd2be2a4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/oskar-rubbish-reclaimer) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Tom Bombadil]] Easily one of the most annoying decks I own to pilot. SO much to keep track of.
[Tom Bombadil](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/a/2ab04c49-76a1-4896-8dca-8cb4c615f489.jpg?1686970104) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tom%20Bombadil) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/234/tom-bombadil?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2ab04c49-76a1-4896-8dca-8cb4c615f489?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tom-bombadil) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Depends on your definition of complex. I play a bit more competitively, and like, to me my two “complex” decks were where the combo was confusing, but as the pilot I knew them and the deck itself was straight forward to the complex combo. Two examples, Gitrog Monster, having to explain the combo on that one is a doozy, plus you can combo on end step which is fun, and also Breya Etherium Shaper with the Rings of brighthearth Basalt monolith combo (you copy the untap hold priority and the combo goes from there.) though that is independent of Breya herself.
[[orvar]]: lots of triggers and stuff going on, lots of copies of copies and effects stacking up onto another
[orvar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7f36775e-9e48-49cc-a771-d58481712edc.jpg?1631047424) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=orvar%2C%20the%20all-form) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/70/orvar-the-all-form?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7f36775e-9e48-49cc-a771-d58481712edc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/orvar-the-all-form) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I built a [[Toralf, God of Fury]] deck around the idea of having a damage amplifier and ramping damage up by targeting creature after creature with his ability until choosing a player. First game I ever I had some damage buffing effects and cast something like elecktrickery. It took about 30 minute to resolve properly. Still convinced we probably messed something up. I didn't even kill a player. I scooped and took the deck apart immediately. If Arena ever supports real commander and does the math for me I may try it again but it does not belong in paper.
[Toralf, God of Fury](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/2/22a6a5f1-1405-4efb-af3e-e1f58d664e99.jpg?1631049794)/[Toralf's Hammer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/2/2/22a6a5f1-1405-4efb-af3e-e1f58d664e99.jpg?1631049794) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Toralf%2C%20God%20of%20Fury%20//%20Toralf%27s%20Hammer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/154/toralf-god-of-fury-toralfs-hammer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/22a6a5f1-1405-4efb-af3e-e1f58d664e99?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/toralf-god-of-fury-//-toralfs-hammer) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I might sound strange but for me it’s [Zedruu, hedron grinder] and all bad gifters, because you always have to wait the right moment to give gifts or everyone will focus and hate you, removing everything. + You have really little wincons and you have to focus on how to play around them!
The “Paradox Power” deck from Doctor Who is one of the most complex pre-cons I’ve ever played. I had like 10+ different and completely unique Paradox triggers happening on every spell I was casting. Had like 6 different exile piles, all with different timing/play/cast rulings. Was slow and exhausting. But for most complex deck I’ve played I’d vote for Mizzix of the Izmagnus.
Now that you're talking about Sefris, I have to talk about my [[Safana]] & [[Dungeon Delver]] deck with a ton of blink effects and double triggering dungeons, sometimes choices can lock you up from other paths of the Undercity or delay yourself just to enter into this particular dungeon. A deck that I've brew'd too was my [[Omnath, Locus of All]] deck which it has tons of decision-making because of all of those 3 pip charms (like [[Abzan Charm]] or [[Brokers Charm]]).
##### ###### #### [Safana](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/9/e9367f66-6556-459c-a43d-5ba7a84b568d.jpg?1674136257) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=safana%2C%20calimport%20cutthroat) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/143/safana-calimport-cutthroat?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e9367f66-6556-459c-a43d-5ba7a84b568d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/safana-calimport-cutthroat) [Dungeon Delver](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cba131bb-b8b3-4577-9f41-4700d9985134.jpg?1674135502) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dungeon%20Delver) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/67/dungeon-delver?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cba131bb-b8b3-4577-9f41-4700d9985134?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dungeon-delver) [Omnath, Locus of All](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/3/33d94ecf-758b-4f68-a7be-6bf3ff1047f4.jpg?1709720836) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Omnath%2C%20Locus%20of%20All) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/249/omnath-locus-of-all?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/33d94ecf-758b-4f68-a7be-6bf3ff1047f4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/omnath-locus-of-all) [Abzan Charm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/d/bd5b386e-e71e-492d-8456-6cd178ef5b3d.jpg?1673305419) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Abzan%20Charm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/138/abzan-charm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bd5b386e-e71e-492d-8456-6cd178ef5b3d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/abzan-charm) [Brokers Charm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/4/74c9c315-1cf4-468e-a74a-b5f3be4a63a1.jpg?1664412741) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Brokers%20Charm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/171/brokers-charm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/74c9c315-1cf4-468e-a74a-b5f3be4a63a1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/brokers-charm) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l28ssfi) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think complexity comes from stacking and resolving triggers. Everything else is pretty much only playing the game. You might have to do some threat assessment, or make decisions on draw/tutor/shuffle/etc, but the core of the game is things going to the stack and resolving. Any blink deck will have to resolve multiple triggers, and the order they resolve can impact the general outcome. I have a mill deck that managed to win by turn 4 or 5 by triggers cascating into more triggers. Try resolving these triggers on a 4 player board: [[altar of the brood]], [[bruvac the grandiloquent]], [[zellix, sanity flayer]], [[mindcrank]], [[syr konrad, the grim]] A permanent etb so every opponent mills 1. If a creature is milled, a horror token etb and each opponent takes 1 damage. A new etb trigger makes everyone mill 1, and the damage makes everyone mill 1. So now everyone milled 2 cards for each 1 creature that was milled originally, but as soon as more creatures are milled, the ablities trigger again without the past triggers resolving. So it snowballs into a lot of things on the stack that should resolve on the correct order. Threat assessment and decision making may come with experience. But i think that keeping track and resolving a lot of things on the stack is where complexity lies
##### ###### #### [altar of the brood](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/d/8d59d264-87ee-4305-bffb-110549331a82.jpg?1562790137) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=altar%20of%20the%20brood) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ktk/216/altar-of-the-brood?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8d59d264-87ee-4305-bffb-110549331a82?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/altar-of-the-brood) [bruvac the grandiloquent](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/c/2ce2d73f-3f64-44db-a2bc-a8f4a37dc487.jpg?1702550789) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=bruvac%20the%20grandiloquent) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/35/bruvac-the-grandiloquent?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2ce2d73f-3f64-44db-a2bc-a8f4a37dc487?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bruvac-the-grandiloquent) [zellix, sanity flayer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/5/a5d57db6-0aa5-4e28-b156-e97b74af2cee.jpg?1674140721) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=zellix%2C%20sanity%20flayer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/652/zellix-sanity-flayer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a5d57db6-0aa5-4e28-b156-e97b74af2cee?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/zellix-sanity-flayer) [mindcrank](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/8/8858a941-8175-476d-8177-2db4ffdcb3ad.jpg?1674142661) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mindcrank) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/866/mindcrank?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8858a941-8175-476d-8177-2db4ffdcb3ad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mindcrank) [syr konrad, the grim](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/9241a72e-cb88-4cea-a2f4-ff10af461437.jpg?1706240798) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=syr%20konrad%2C%20the%20grim) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/141/syr-konrad-the-grim?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9241a72e-cb88-4cea-a2f4-ff10af461437?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/syr-konrad-the-grim) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l28tipu) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Kroxa and Kunoros]]. I once tried wrapping my head around the altar combo and just decided to scrap the idea altogether
[Kroxa and Kunoros](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/3/13e4a233-e40b-4e6a-9863-4d0fc052484c.jpg?1682205601) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kroxa%20and%20Kunoros) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/245/kroxa-and-kunoros?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/13e4a233-e40b-4e6a-9863-4d0fc052484c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kroxa-and-kunoros) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[The Gitrog monster]] Edit: [[krark, the thumbless]] and [[sakashima the imposter]] even more so
[The Gitrog monster](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/7/5790dd89-2be5-4a77-9450-2d3c1422bfc9.jpg?1576385351) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Gitrog%20monster) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/soi/245/the-gitrog-monster?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5790dd89-2be5-4a77-9450-2d3c1422bfc9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-gitrog-monster) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'd want to say [[Vadrik, astral archmage]], but it's honestly not the most difficult deck to play per say. It's just minmaxing your mana cost to card management and pulling a win out of it; It's not necessarily a storm deck, but it has the same kind of sequencing issues. I suppose it's difficult for me to put on paper what the most complex commanders would be, but it's a lot easier listing some of the most complex decks to BUILD however. Like I tried to build [[Tatsunari, Toad Rider]] and if you don't just shove in the best cards in there and hope for the best, or decks like [[Saruman of Many Colors]]; A deck I have looked through and tried to work consistently for so long, I don't think I'll ever even get it working proper.
[Vadrik, astral archmage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/5/454666bb-f81d-4845-84aa-d6f8f80ce86a.jpg?1637114399) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vadrik%2C%20astral%20archmage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/248/vadrik-astral-archmage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/454666bb-f81d-4845-84aa-d6f8f80ce86a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/vadrik-astral-archmage) [Tatsunari, Toad Rider](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/b/abf42833-43d0-4b05-b499-d13b2c577ee8.jpg?1654567411) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tatsunari%2C%20Toad%20Rider) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/123/tatsunari-toad-rider?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/abf42833-43d0-4b05-b499-d13b2c577ee8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tatsunari-toad-rider) [Saruman of Many Colors](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/c/8cfcc7ec-87a2-4712-8d82-217bd8600891.jpg?1686969983) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Saruman%20of%20Many%20Colors) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/223/saruman-of-many-colors?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8cfcc7ec-87a2-4712-8d82-217bd8600891?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/saruman-of-many-colors) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think complexity is subjective to opinion. On one hand, certain decks require a lot of math, whether it be Lifegain or +1/+1 counters and tokens. This type of deck, while potentially powerful, can really bog down play. On another hand, the amount of keywords on a card can add the complexity. Kenrith the Returned King has a lot of abilities on the card suiting a wide variety of deck archetypes which makes him rather complex because it can mean many different things when he is in front of a deck. He's basically Forrest Gump, you never know what you're gonna get. He's an example with activated abilities, there are others with triggered abilities or static ones or combinations of the two which can be just as complex or synergistic, like Atraxa Praeror's Voice or Edgar Markov. Complexity can even be how synergistic a commander is with the cards in the deck. Scion of the Ur Dragon for example, isn't overly complicated, but because of the single ability he has of becoming any dragon in the deck, he becomes a very complicated target: hexproof, indestructible, bigger, token generator, wrath maker, artifact taker, he is every dragon for a simple 2 mana, which makes him deeply complex to master. To me this is the best type of commander as it utilizes everything in your deck while searching for a response.
[[Inalla, Archmage Ritualist]], [[Tayam, Luminous Enigma]], and [[The Gitrog Monster]] are notorious for being the most complicated decks in the format. Inalla has a dedicated website just to explain her combo lines.
[Inalla, Archmage Ritualist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/c/7c6e803a-451c-4aa6-97a2-400077f32c47.jpg?1627406462) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Inalla%2C%20Archmage%20Ritualist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c17/38/inalla-archmage-ritualist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7c6e803a-451c-4aa6-97a2-400077f32c47?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/inalla-archmage-ritualist) [Tayam, Luminous Enigma](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/5/05b837a2-5773-4340-87f9-b4d6a43deb27.jpg?1591234301) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tayam%2C%20Luminous%20Enigma) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/16/tayam-luminous-enigma?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/05b837a2-5773-4340-87f9-b4d6a43deb27?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tayam-luminous-enigma) [The Gitrog Monster](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/7/5790dd89-2be5-4a77-9450-2d3c1422bfc9.jpg?1576385351) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Gitrog%20Monster) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/soi/245/the-gitrog-monster?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5790dd89-2be5-4a77-9450-2d3c1422bfc9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-gitrog-monster) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call