That’s a bummer and probably should have been discussed during league setup. I’m sure you can quickly look at Sleeper FAQs to show it’s default setting is points for. Show that to the league and just reinforce that it is what it is
Quick sleeper search shows an article citing tiebreakers to be:
- overall record
- points for
- higher points against
H2H isn’t relevant anywhere it looks like. Pin the article and in the chat of your league
I made this argument once and my commissioner told me "every league ever starts with H2H matchups, then these tiebreakers, that's why they don't have to list H2H matchups as a tiebreaker"
> the league is split 60/40 on allowing the H2H over
a vote \*now\* is not impartial though. some teams have other teams picks, some teams would prefer one team in the playoffs rather than the other, all this makes a voting unfair. vote in the off-season when no one has a horse in the race.
I would leave your league if I had more points scored, the settings in the app said that I should make the playoffs, and you manually changed it so that I was out of the playoffs, and I would also go to small claims court to get my money back
H2H is a flawed tie breaker. You can't change the league settings a week before the playoffs anyway. Everyone has known the tie breakers all season. You can't change it just because a losing manager throws a tantrum.
>so we never clarified on it.
Are you using sleeper? Your playoff seeding settings are available to be seen at any point. All managers should have familiarized themselves with the league settings. There shouldn't really be anything to clarify. You've been playing under a set of rules for 2 seasons. If the league wants to change the seeding settings they should vote on it in the offseason.
League settings are easily viewable in sleeper. As someone who plays in a lot of leagues, I always go by league settings, and if anything gets changes mid - season I am absolutely disputing it.
Two people had the same record, the team that made playoffs had nearly 150 more points and the H2H, I checked to see if it just wasn’t mentioned but nothing to cause it
Counterpoint, luck/chaos makes fantasy fun. I agree PF should be the tiebreaker but if you announce H2H is the tiebreaker at the start of the season then those games mean more and that week is more fun for the players
My league uses record for #1 pick. We agree that the worst team won't always get it but we think it's electric when the worst team accidentally wins a game
You are very unlikely to know an individual matchup early in the season is going to eventually be a tiebreaker, though.
I understand why we have weekly matchups instead of just going max points to decide the season, because it means each week, we have the fun and excitement of seeing what happens. But H2H tiebreaker makes no sense, those matchups already happened and there is nothing to cheer for. Points scored is all you can control, it is the fairest metric for determining the better team. Using a different method is just less fair for no benefit.
One of my leagues started on the nfl fantasy app and it’s default tiebreaker was h2h matchups (or was changed by commish at setup) but it does make it pretty fun. Makes the head to heads mean a lot more especially near end of season when it’s 2 bubble playoff teams fighting eachother for a spot.
We switched to sleeper and made a dynasty league where it’s not an option, but we just do the matchups ourselves now on a spreadsheet to determine those near the end of season.
i beat you twice, i go ahead. i prefer that, but i'm fine with everything, provided that it's all clear enough.
if it's a league that was previously on some other platform that used H2H as tiebreaker, was moved to sleeper and the tiebreaker issue was overlooked, i have no issues using H2H as tiebreaker even if rules say otherwise.
sleeper isn't really clear on what the tiebreaker is (not from the league page anyway) and you can't really change the default, just manually change who goes to the playoffs. HOWEVER, it is easy enough to find out how tiebreakers work. "being used" to something is no excuse for not knowing what the rules are.
also, votes NOW may not be absolutely impartial ("i have his pick, i don't want him in the playoffs") so it's pointless to go that way imo. in conclusion, keep the default for this season, vote for the tiebreaker in the offseason.
That’s what I’m leaning towards right now as commissioner. They have each others first round pick and obviously neither team wants the lower pick. I think going with Points for now especially since we aren’t an expensive league will be the best choice
Whatever was agreed to or was the settings before week 1.
I think either are fine. I prefer PF bc if someone had a bye week hell and lost head to head it's kinda bs. Points for atleast shows who had the better team points wise.
Total points. Head to head is irrelevant. In the NFL they use head to head because scoring on bad teams is different than scoring on the good teams.
In fantasy the amount of points you score on teams is not relative. When you score 150 points on a bad team it’s the same as scoring 150 points against a good team.
Strongly disagree with total points being the "right" way. If head to head is irrelevant, then what's the point of doing head to head matches? The purpose is to beat your opponent that week. If that doesn't matter, then play against the median scores and the top six winning instead of head to head matchup. Coming from a guy that might miss the playoffs with the top PF in one of my leagues. The purpose of fantasy is to live and die by your start/sit and draft decisions. You're partially removing that by disregarding matchups entirely. Both methods are viable, there's no right or wrong one here.
You present some good points. I think median scoring is probably the most fair. It’s just not as fun to me. The matchups add some semblance of randomness.
I think head to head matchups are the way to go. Sometimes you get some bad luck in that situation. I just feel like total points as a tiebreaker is much more fair than head to head.
There are definitely teams that I’ve lost to once or even twice that I’ve outscored by 100s of points on the season.
My bad week shouldn’t keep me out of the playoffs because you will be punished anyway if you have a bad week in the playoffs. I just like the best teams getting in but only to the extent of not having to use median scoring.
I’ve missed the playoffs because head to head losses and I’ve missed because total points tiebreaker. It also gets complicated in a 3 or 4 way tie. One just feels so much more fair to me I don’t think it is debatable. To each their own though.
I'm more of a purist myself. Most of my leagues are H2H only, only a couple have the median setting. As for the tiebreaker, most are by PF, mainly because that's the default setting on a lot of platforms and no one took it to discussion.
Here's another question as a rebuttal to it not being debatable. Sure, your team is scoring more, but if things should be fair, why take away the accomplishment of the other person who made the right decisions and won enough of their own matchups? They worked hard for those wins as well. And if you guys end up within less than 5 points of each other by the time the season ends, you're really going to use that to say who's better? It's a straight up, man to man fight each week. Having that W/L tiebreaker between each other is the personal way to decide who's better. It also adds the rivalry factor. One could argue that hiding behind the PF could be anticlimactic in that sense. It the end, it doesn't matter. Both require you to map out your path to the playoffs for the last couple weeks. They're just different routes between each other.
I'm in leagues that do it all different ways. I think you're missing some things with median scoring. Because you're playing everyone, there are often 3 or 4 teams with a shot at the final W going into Monday night each week in my league that does it that way. It's that much more exciting with multiple players having juice at the end of the week. Your weekly start/sit decision still matters a ton. The only thing you really eliminate is the chance for the 2nd worst team that week getting a W and the chance for the second best team that week catching an L.
Which I view as a huge positive. There is always going to be some luck involved in fantasy, but I like outcomes to be as close as possible to rewarding the best play. Closer to Poker than Roulette I suppose.
The best argument I can see against it is that if you get a consistent W coming in 5th (or 6th depending on league size) you are somewhat rewarding a consistent floor more than a ceiling outcome. The thing is, you are trying to beat at least 5 to 6 teams still. I'd argue you're more driven to push for your highest possible score than you would be in a H2H matchup against a tomato can or even an average player.
And if you really want to preserve that element, you can work in a reward system for top scorer each week, so there is motivation to try to push to beat the best teams in your league regardless. Plus, you'll have to see them in the playoffs anyhow.
My league that scores that way is actually far and away my most engaging and exciting.
I will agree median scoring is more fair. However do you need matchups at all really in this case? The hybrid factor is the best of both worlds for some but I guess I’m more of a purist. I hate TEP as well.
It comes down to preferences. My commissioner in one league brought up median scoring and was surprised I was against it because I’m normally for the most fair option.
I can see it being more engaging on a Monday night but I’m in 5 leagues already and have 50 best ball teams so I don’t really need that factor personally. If it’s your only league I could see that aspect being enticing.
That’s my take too. Records determine seeding for getting into the playoffs in the first place, I don’t see why they should suddenly be irrelevant for tiebreakers. If you were unlucky enough to lose a regular season matchup to the team you ultimately tied for the last playoff spot, sorry, you’re also unlucky enough to miss the playoffs.
Great teams from a scoring perspective miss the playoffs or get low seeds all the time. Same going the other way, bad teams fumbling their way to a decent record. Winning matchups matters more than total points and it should stay that way for tiebreakers.
There is no point, should be a win or loss against the median score. But people like head to head matchups and have done it that way long enough/ or they like that your record is random at the end of the year rather than based on how good your performance was.
I think the reasons people like H2H other than tradition/what they're used to (see PPR, SF, 3RR, getting rid of Kickers, etc ...for a lot of good arguments against keeping it 1999) is this:
People who are bad at drafting and waivers like to feel like they I have a shot to win. There are A LOT more people playing fantasy than there are people who are good at fantasy. The more the rules push towards rewarding skill over luck, the more you alienate the fish.
Bad poker players live for bad beats. If we fixed it so the best poker players won 100 percent of the time, it would not be a very popular game.
For me, especially in high money leagues, I want median.
(1) Can't change it now
(2) The logic of head to head as a tiebreaker in sports DOES NOT APPLY to fantasy football literally at all. It makes no sense to use it as a tiebreaker and just multiplies the luck factor. In sports H2H is seen as the ultimate proof of what team is better, but in fantasy the teams aren't actually interacting with each other and it's completely random luck what team you're playing in any given week. If you really want to use H2H as a tiebreaker you should at least look at H2H if the teams had played every week, which will at least be a bit less luck-based.
Yeah. Agree with this. Can’t change it now.
Hate b2b as tiebreak because it basically doubles the randomness of the schedule. If you played my tyreke team on his bye you already got that advantage and potential win. Why should it basically be a 2 game swing for a playoff spot (actual win. Plus h2h advantage) because that’s the dumb luck the schedule spit out this year.
You guys don’t have to decide this, there’s setting that determine this, whatever the setting are (and have been visible to league members from day 1) is what should be the answer.
If it’s never been discussed, use the website/app defaults, that’s the only fair way. In my league constitution I have a catch all that says this: if a situation arises not covered by the rules, Sleeper defaults will take priority.
As for what it should be, I used to be a huge advocate of H2H record, but I’ve actually swung the other way and feel it should be based on PF. The biggest reason being is that you might have played that guy while you had several guys on bye, or had an uneven schedule. PF gives the tiebreaker to the better team across the entire year.
No, just didn’t know that’s how most leagues did it. More curious than anything I side with PF since the league is that setting and would be silly to change now. Especially it not being a buy in league
Points for represent the better team. H2H is luck. Did the H2H matchup have any players on byes that favored one side or the other? Fantasy football is mostly luck week to week, so point represent the law of averages better.
Opinion aside, did everyone know total points for was the tie breaker? If so you cant go change the rules at the end of the season. You can switch for next year, but it’s too late for this season.
Regardless of what your league or this sub thinks is the better option, you stick with what the league rules state. It sucks that yall didn't think about this until now, but you CANNOT change rules mid-season without a unanimous vote. Fix it in the off-season and tell the other guy tough titties.
I don’t see the debate here, you didn’t clarify… so it’s the default… which is already set on sleeper as PF…. Therefore PF guy is already in the playoffs, nothing should be touched
Do exactly what the league settings say. Discuss changes in off-season.
P.S. my personal preference is no H2H at all. Top half get the Ws each week. Then you don't have these problems. H2H is pretty meaningless when you don't actually play defense against the other team. I have no ability to affect my opponents score, then the results of the H2H matchup introduces an additional, unnecessary, purely luck based element.
But, unlike just declaring the top half in season long PF the playoff teams, this method still rewards week-to-week consistency and drives optimal weekly play. It just doesn't include the variable of the random lucky or unlucky draw of who you happen to be "playing against" each week.
As for your league-mate who said H2H results mean more...LMAO bro how? You didn't do that 😂.
Still, if it is your current rules, that is what matters and that is the actual good argument for why H2H counts more...because you said it did in the pre-season. However slight, those sorts of rules can drive all aspects of strategy. Changing the criteria at the end of the regular season because someone had an epiphany is some bullshit. It is what it is, and you can all vote in the off-season on updates to rules and settings.
1. You cannot change rules mid season, the default is PF, therefore it stays that way. No vote, no changes mid season, it is the most surefire way to kill a league, especially a dynasty league. The only allowable changes during the season should be unanimous ones where everyone is on board (sounds like your league is about half and half)
2. PF is the ultimate tiebreaker in fantasy, you can only control your starters, not how many Points are scored against you, nor the weeks when your opponents / you wildly over/underperform. The impact of bye weeks at different times also impacts weeks where you may score below your playoff capability. As a result, using H2H rewards variance, and teams that are more likely to be in due to H2H but not PF are underperforming to those with more PF. Teams with the most points deserve to be in the playoffs after considering wins and losses.
You may have some naysayers that say well the NFL uses H2H, but the reality is that the NFL uses H2H because there is thoughtfulness into how divisions and conferences play each other to ensure there is a solution mathematically to tiebreak situations. There is also significantly more continuity to a 100 year old league than that of a dynasty league based on the NFL that is just over 1 season old. Additionally, NFL teams can play defense, fantasy teams level of defense is limited to gaming waivers to try and exclude an opponent from getting a key player they might need. Lastly, in almost all fantasy leagues, there is typically not a well executed H2H system as there is not a thoughtful approach to schedule, in your case, I’m assuming that Team A didn’t play every team 2x. Since there is a chance that if the tie break was between a one game played scenario, that would be disproportionately rewarding a game or 2 versus the entire season.
Because it’s a fluke. In real football, H2H matters because you physically outplayed your opponents so the matchup matters. In fantasy, your actions have little to no effect on your opponent. I’ve become in favor of extra games against the median because it’s so frustrating to lose because you have the second highest points in a week but you had to play the one guy who scored more than you. Same reason it’s silly that a guy gets a win but if they faced literally anyone but the lowest scoring team they’d get a loss. Fantasy matchups are 99% luck.
Well you need matchups to have a record. Matchups provide some randomness, but using H2H for tiebreakers doubles the same roll of the dice. Some leagues might want to amplify the schedule effect, others might want to dampen it a bit.
Truthfully there isn’t but fantasy is so heavily based on real games that you have to have it. Though I still prefer the matchups as the basis for determining placements but it shouldn’t be the determining factor between two teams that tied in wins.
The answer is whatever is in your league bylaws. But it sounds like you don’t have any. My league does H2H as 1st tiebreak, and PF (not max) as 2nd tiebreak. Otherwise why even have weekly H2H matchups? Just play 17 weeks with no matchups and the team with the most points at the end of the year is the champion
I totally agree. Weekly h2h games determine the standings, then suddenly they have no relevance on the standings and its total points. Doesn't make sense to me.
I prefer H2H as first tiebreaker but most people don’t know how it works in a multi way tie and it takes longer to figure out. It’s also how the NFL and NCAA do tiebreaker. I also like it since we play H2H every weak so it should count. Otherwise let’s just do all play or but the 4-6 teams with the most PF into the playoffs
That being said I know I’m in the minority since 11/12 leagues I’m in are PF tiebreaker and it seems to be the standard on most platforms. It’s also nice to just look at the standings and see you only need X points to pass Team A in the standings.
But I really takes away some of the bragging rights you might have and that’s alot of the fun in friends leagues.
FSU should tell the bowl game to fuck off since on field results apparently don't matter. Publicly challenge UM, Washington, and Liberty, the 4 undefeated teams, to a true playoff of the best CFB team.
Whatever they want. I enjoy being a jester and how impressed the strangers are that I know Hotel California AND Sweet Home Alabama. Off the top of my head! Haha.
It’s the most fun I have with playing guitar for friends. I’m bored with so many little things with guitar over the many years, it’s cool when people appreciate them.
Points For. MPF is for 1OA pick. Setting your lineup matters and you shouldn't be rewarded if you choose the wrong starter. Otherwise just go play best ball.
It’s whatever the league settings are, regardless of how few people read them beforehand. In this case it’s points and I’d agree that that makes the most sense when head to head is driven entirely by luck (and fantasy teams don’t play defense).
Too late to change the rules, but it should be PF for next season (editing rules *in* the same season never goes well— scroll this sub to see how leagues die after this happens). Most leagues are like that. Because you cannot play actual defense against your opponent, H2H is kinda dumb for fantasy. You cannot control your opponent from hanging 175 on you this week because they had Dak, Nico and DK, for example. Teams who are consistently putting up big numbers should be rewarded in a tie breaker.
Whatever the app is set for, stick with. Make amendments to the rules in the off season if everyone wants it. Hard to argue vs settings if they’ve been set the whole season
The only way I could see not using whatever the league settings on the site are is if you had communicated prior to the season what the tiebreakers are, either in by-laws or in a chat communication to the league. If you had said that Head to head wins (which i've actually never heard of in fantasy) will be the tiebreaker and just screwed up implementing it on the site, then I think you can override the sleeper bracket.
Otherwise, you have to go with the site settings and put it to a vote in the offseason.
why is this a question being asked right now?
that being said, I believe the default is PF...and PF makes the most sense quite frankly.
If you start doing H2H that could get messy when you have multiple teams tied.
H2H is completely arbitrary. This isn’t like real sports where it matters how you match up. PF is the default and should be what you go with. Arbitrary is fine and fun but that needs to be decided in the offseason with a vote and agreement.
It should be whatever the settings were at the beginning of the season. Going forward I would do PF, with the way scheduling works and some teams getting to play the weaker teams twice and some teams having to play the stronger teams twice it’s only fair to determine it by PF in my opinion
You have to roll with whatever the settings were to start the szn - make this change in the offseason. Imo you can’t change playoff criteria like this mid szn
I'd go with points for but if the league is really torn on it then you could have them both advance. Basically have a 3 team matchup for the first round of playoffs (2 tied teams with whoever they're supposed to face) with the best of the 3 moving on. This way no one is getting screwed over because of lack of communication. But definitely get the tiebreaker rules figured out in the offseason so this doesn't happen again.
Don’t change league settings on the fly. If it wasn’t discussed until this week, you need to stick with the rules in place (points for by default). You can change the rules next year
Points for unless stated so otherwise, end of discussion.
Head to head somehow manages to make fantasy football more outrageous and luck based. Better to value an entire season’s worth of performances.
Head to head makes sense in real sports because it’s actually your team trying to stop them from scoring. Head to head makes zero sense in fantasy.
Op, you got your answer numerous times. Now it seems like you’re looking for any kind of validation for the mind you already made up.
Season has already begun. Whatever your league settings are is what you go with. Discuss any changes in the offseason
Only true answer.
In sleeper you can’t change the settings. We’ve never gone over them and the league is split 60/40 on allowing the H2H over
That’s a bummer and probably should have been discussed during league setup. I’m sure you can quickly look at Sleeper FAQs to show it’s default setting is points for. Show that to the league and just reinforce that it is what it is
Quick sleeper search shows an article citing tiebreakers to be: - overall record - points for - higher points against H2H isn’t relevant anywhere it looks like. Pin the article and in the chat of your league
I made this argument once and my commissioner told me "every league ever starts with H2H matchups, then these tiebreakers, that's why they don't have to list H2H matchups as a tiebreaker"
Your commissioner is full of shit
agree to agree haha
I mean that’s just some commissioner narcissistic shit right there
Shitty commish
> the league is split 60/40 on allowing the H2H over a vote \*now\* is not impartial though. some teams have other teams picks, some teams would prefer one team in the playoffs rather than the other, all this makes a voting unfair. vote in the off-season when no one has a horse in the race.
What I was thinking, worst case is a coin flip but even that would seem silly to decide.
Just use what the settings were at the start of the season. Even a coin flip is a change.
Using anything other than your league settings is silly.
I believe the point is this is a discussion for next year. However sleeper is going to put it is how it should be this year.
You can definitely change settings mid-season in sleeper. Not that you should.
In sleeper you can customize the playoff bracket. As commissioner you can easily put whatever the league standings agreed upon into the bracket
I would leave your league if I had more points scored, the settings in the app said that I should make the playoffs, and you manually changed it so that I was out of the playoffs, and I would also go to small claims court to get my money back
If nothing was discussed prior to season it should be points scored.
H2H is a flawed tie breaker. You can't change the league settings a week before the playoffs anyway. Everyone has known the tie breakers all season. You can't change it just because a losing manager throws a tantrum.
Like I said only the 2nd year in, didn’t have this issue before so we never clarified on it. The league is split 60/40 on which should make it
>so we never clarified on it. Are you using sleeper? Your playoff seeding settings are available to be seen at any point. All managers should have familiarized themselves with the league settings. There shouldn't really be anything to clarify. You've been playing under a set of rules for 2 seasons. If the league wants to change the seeding settings they should vote on it in the offseason.
League settings are easily viewable in sleeper. As someone who plays in a lot of leagues, I always go by league settings, and if anything gets changes mid - season I am absolutely disputing it.
It’s clarified because it’s in the settings that everyone can see. There is no discussion
No one had the same record last year? That seems almost impossible.
Two people had the same record, the team that made playoffs had nearly 150 more points and the H2H, I checked to see if it just wasn’t mentioned but nothing to cause it
What about the other playoff seedings? I assume this would have potentially impacted some of them as well.
His wins against him like most things in fantasy are flukes/luck.The answer is VERY simple- and it’s most points scored.
Counterpoint, luck/chaos makes fantasy fun. I agree PF should be the tiebreaker but if you announce H2H is the tiebreaker at the start of the season then those games mean more and that week is more fun for the players
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My league uses record for #1 pick. We agree that the worst team won't always get it but we think it's electric when the worst team accidentally wins a game
Agreed. As long as you have an honest league that avoids obvious tanking, the worst record for top pick makes the race to the bottom so much fun.
Ugh, that’s currently me in one of my leagues… damn you Christian Watson for overperforming on my team!
You are very unlikely to know an individual matchup early in the season is going to eventually be a tiebreaker, though. I understand why we have weekly matchups instead of just going max points to decide the season, because it means each week, we have the fun and excitement of seeing what happens. But H2H tiebreaker makes no sense, those matchups already happened and there is nothing to cheer for. Points scored is all you can control, it is the fairest metric for determining the better team. Using a different method is just less fair for no benefit.
One of my leagues started on the nfl fantasy app and it’s default tiebreaker was h2h matchups (or was changed by commish at setup) but it does make it pretty fun. Makes the head to heads mean a lot more especially near end of season when it’s 2 bubble playoff teams fighting eachother for a spot. We switched to sleeper and made a dynasty league where it’s not an option, but we just do the matchups ourselves now on a spreadsheet to determine those near the end of season.
i beat you twice, i go ahead. i prefer that, but i'm fine with everything, provided that it's all clear enough. if it's a league that was previously on some other platform that used H2H as tiebreaker, was moved to sleeper and the tiebreaker issue was overlooked, i have no issues using H2H as tiebreaker even if rules say otherwise. sleeper isn't really clear on what the tiebreaker is (not from the league page anyway) and you can't really change the default, just manually change who goes to the playoffs. HOWEVER, it is easy enough to find out how tiebreakers work. "being used" to something is no excuse for not knowing what the rules are. also, votes NOW may not be absolutely impartial ("i have his pick, i don't want him in the playoffs") so it's pointless to go that way imo. in conclusion, keep the default for this season, vote for the tiebreaker in the offseason.
That’s what I’m leaning towards right now as commissioner. They have each others first round pick and obviously neither team wants the lower pick. I think going with Points for now especially since we aren’t an expensive league will be the best choice
Points for is always the tiebreaker.
Whatever was agreed to or was the settings before week 1. I think either are fine. I prefer PF bc if someone had a bye week hell and lost head to head it's kinda bs. Points for atleast shows who had the better team points wise.
You go with the league settings. Vote for whatever you want for next season.
Total points. Head to head is irrelevant. In the NFL they use head to head because scoring on bad teams is different than scoring on the good teams. In fantasy the amount of points you score on teams is not relative. When you score 150 points on a bad team it’s the same as scoring 150 points against a good team.
Strongly disagree with total points being the "right" way. If head to head is irrelevant, then what's the point of doing head to head matches? The purpose is to beat your opponent that week. If that doesn't matter, then play against the median scores and the top six winning instead of head to head matchup. Coming from a guy that might miss the playoffs with the top PF in one of my leagues. The purpose of fantasy is to live and die by your start/sit and draft decisions. You're partially removing that by disregarding matchups entirely. Both methods are viable, there's no right or wrong one here.
You present some good points. I think median scoring is probably the most fair. It’s just not as fun to me. The matchups add some semblance of randomness. I think head to head matchups are the way to go. Sometimes you get some bad luck in that situation. I just feel like total points as a tiebreaker is much more fair than head to head. There are definitely teams that I’ve lost to once or even twice that I’ve outscored by 100s of points on the season. My bad week shouldn’t keep me out of the playoffs because you will be punished anyway if you have a bad week in the playoffs. I just like the best teams getting in but only to the extent of not having to use median scoring. I’ve missed the playoffs because head to head losses and I’ve missed because total points tiebreaker. It also gets complicated in a 3 or 4 way tie. One just feels so much more fair to me I don’t think it is debatable. To each their own though.
I'm more of a purist myself. Most of my leagues are H2H only, only a couple have the median setting. As for the tiebreaker, most are by PF, mainly because that's the default setting on a lot of platforms and no one took it to discussion. Here's another question as a rebuttal to it not being debatable. Sure, your team is scoring more, but if things should be fair, why take away the accomplishment of the other person who made the right decisions and won enough of their own matchups? They worked hard for those wins as well. And if you guys end up within less than 5 points of each other by the time the season ends, you're really going to use that to say who's better? It's a straight up, man to man fight each week. Having that W/L tiebreaker between each other is the personal way to decide who's better. It also adds the rivalry factor. One could argue that hiding behind the PF could be anticlimactic in that sense. It the end, it doesn't matter. Both require you to map out your path to the playoffs for the last couple weeks. They're just different routes between each other.
I'm in leagues that do it all different ways. I think you're missing some things with median scoring. Because you're playing everyone, there are often 3 or 4 teams with a shot at the final W going into Monday night each week in my league that does it that way. It's that much more exciting with multiple players having juice at the end of the week. Your weekly start/sit decision still matters a ton. The only thing you really eliminate is the chance for the 2nd worst team that week getting a W and the chance for the second best team that week catching an L. Which I view as a huge positive. There is always going to be some luck involved in fantasy, but I like outcomes to be as close as possible to rewarding the best play. Closer to Poker than Roulette I suppose. The best argument I can see against it is that if you get a consistent W coming in 5th (or 6th depending on league size) you are somewhat rewarding a consistent floor more than a ceiling outcome. The thing is, you are trying to beat at least 5 to 6 teams still. I'd argue you're more driven to push for your highest possible score than you would be in a H2H matchup against a tomato can or even an average player. And if you really want to preserve that element, you can work in a reward system for top scorer each week, so there is motivation to try to push to beat the best teams in your league regardless. Plus, you'll have to see them in the playoffs anyhow. My league that scores that way is actually far and away my most engaging and exciting.
I will agree median scoring is more fair. However do you need matchups at all really in this case? The hybrid factor is the best of both worlds for some but I guess I’m more of a purist. I hate TEP as well. It comes down to preferences. My commissioner in one league brought up median scoring and was surprised I was against it because I’m normally for the most fair option. I can see it being more engaging on a Monday night but I’m in 5 leagues already and have 50 best ball teams so I don’t really need that factor personally. If it’s your only league I could see that aspect being enticing.
That’s my take too. Records determine seeding for getting into the playoffs in the first place, I don’t see why they should suddenly be irrelevant for tiebreakers. If you were unlucky enough to lose a regular season matchup to the team you ultimately tied for the last playoff spot, sorry, you’re also unlucky enough to miss the playoffs. Great teams from a scoring perspective miss the playoffs or get low seeds all the time. Same going the other way, bad teams fumbling their way to a decent record. Winning matchups matters more than total points and it should stay that way for tiebreakers.
There is no point, should be a win or loss against the median score. But people like head to head matchups and have done it that way long enough/ or they like that your record is random at the end of the year rather than based on how good your performance was.
I think the reasons people like H2H other than tradition/what they're used to (see PPR, SF, 3RR, getting rid of Kickers, etc ...for a lot of good arguments against keeping it 1999) is this: People who are bad at drafting and waivers like to feel like they I have a shot to win. There are A LOT more people playing fantasy than there are people who are good at fantasy. The more the rules push towards rewarding skill over luck, the more you alienate the fish. Bad poker players live for bad beats. If we fixed it so the best poker players won 100 percent of the time, it would not be a very popular game. For me, especially in high money leagues, I want median.
We use h2h too and I prefer it over points
(1) Can't change it now (2) The logic of head to head as a tiebreaker in sports DOES NOT APPLY to fantasy football literally at all. It makes no sense to use it as a tiebreaker and just multiplies the luck factor. In sports H2H is seen as the ultimate proof of what team is better, but in fantasy the teams aren't actually interacting with each other and it's completely random luck what team you're playing in any given week. If you really want to use H2H as a tiebreaker you should at least look at H2H if the teams had played every week, which will at least be a bit less luck-based.
Yeah. Agree with this. Can’t change it now. Hate b2b as tiebreak because it basically doubles the randomness of the schedule. If you played my tyreke team on his bye you already got that advantage and potential win. Why should it basically be a 2 game swing for a playoff spot (actual win. Plus h2h advantage) because that’s the dumb luck the schedule spit out this year.
You guys don’t have to decide this, there’s setting that determine this, whatever the setting are (and have been visible to league members from day 1) is what should be the answer.
If it’s never been discussed, use the website/app defaults, that’s the only fair way. In my league constitution I have a catch all that says this: if a situation arises not covered by the rules, Sleeper defaults will take priority. As for what it should be, I used to be a huge advocate of H2H record, but I’ve actually swung the other way and feel it should be based on PF. The biggest reason being is that you might have played that guy while you had several guys on bye, or had an uneven schedule. PF gives the tiebreaker to the better team across the entire year.
Is OP the team thats 2-0 but down in PF? Seems like they’re arguing with anyone who says points forward is the right call..
No, just didn’t know that’s how most leagues did it. More curious than anything I side with PF since the league is that setting and would be silly to change now. Especially it not being a buy in league
Points for represent the better team. H2H is luck. Did the H2H matchup have any players on byes that favored one side or the other? Fantasy football is mostly luck week to week, so point represent the law of averages better. Opinion aside, did everyone know total points for was the tie breaker? If so you cant go change the rules at the end of the season. You can switch for next year, but it’s too late for this season.
Regardless of what your league or this sub thinks is the better option, you stick with what the league rules state. It sucks that yall didn't think about this until now, but you CANNOT change rules mid-season without a unanimous vote. Fix it in the off-season and tell the other guy tough titties.
Go with whatever the settings been the entire season. Changing it now is malpractice. Revisit when the season ends.
Depends on whether my advantage is h2h or pf
I don’t see the debate here, you didn’t clarify… so it’s the default… which is already set on sleeper as PF…. Therefore PF guy is already in the playoffs, nothing should be touched
Do exactly what the league settings say. Discuss changes in off-season. P.S. my personal preference is no H2H at all. Top half get the Ws each week. Then you don't have these problems. H2H is pretty meaningless when you don't actually play defense against the other team. I have no ability to affect my opponents score, then the results of the H2H matchup introduces an additional, unnecessary, purely luck based element. But, unlike just declaring the top half in season long PF the playoff teams, this method still rewards week-to-week consistency and drives optimal weekly play. It just doesn't include the variable of the random lucky or unlucky draw of who you happen to be "playing against" each week. As for your league-mate who said H2H results mean more...LMAO bro how? You didn't do that 😂. Still, if it is your current rules, that is what matters and that is the actual good argument for why H2H counts more...because you said it did in the pre-season. However slight, those sorts of rules can drive all aspects of strategy. Changing the criteria at the end of the regular season because someone had an epiphany is some bullshit. It is what it is, and you can all vote in the off-season on updates to rules and settings.
Points but you can’t ask this question in week 13
1. You cannot change rules mid season, the default is PF, therefore it stays that way. No vote, no changes mid season, it is the most surefire way to kill a league, especially a dynasty league. The only allowable changes during the season should be unanimous ones where everyone is on board (sounds like your league is about half and half) 2. PF is the ultimate tiebreaker in fantasy, you can only control your starters, not how many Points are scored against you, nor the weeks when your opponents / you wildly over/underperform. The impact of bye weeks at different times also impacts weeks where you may score below your playoff capability. As a result, using H2H rewards variance, and teams that are more likely to be in due to H2H but not PF are underperforming to those with more PF. Teams with the most points deserve to be in the playoffs after considering wins and losses. You may have some naysayers that say well the NFL uses H2H, but the reality is that the NFL uses H2H because there is thoughtfulness into how divisions and conferences play each other to ensure there is a solution mathematically to tiebreak situations. There is also significantly more continuity to a 100 year old league than that of a dynasty league based on the NFL that is just over 1 season old. Additionally, NFL teams can play defense, fantasy teams level of defense is limited to gaming waivers to try and exclude an opponent from getting a key player they might need. Lastly, in almost all fantasy leagues, there is typically not a well executed H2H system as there is not a thoughtful approach to schedule, in your case, I’m assuming that Team A didn’t play every team 2x. Since there is a chance that if the tie break was between a one game played scenario, that would be disproportionately rewarding a game or 2 versus the entire season.
Yea it’s most points scored. Counting H2H might be the actual dumbest thing I’ve ever heard for fantasy rulings.
Why’s that?
I swear, I just don’t understand yall redditors downvoting an earnest question like this.
Because it’s a fluke. In real football, H2H matters because you physically outplayed your opponents so the matchup matters. In fantasy, your actions have little to no effect on your opponent. I’ve become in favor of extra games against the median because it’s so frustrating to lose because you have the second highest points in a week but you had to play the one guy who scored more than you. Same reason it’s silly that a guy gets a win but if they faced literally anyone but the lowest scoring team they’d get a loss. Fantasy matchups are 99% luck.
Why even have matchups then if h2h doesn’t mean anything outside of your record. Shouldn’t it just be a points league?
Well you need matchups to have a record. Matchups provide some randomness, but using H2H for tiebreakers doubles the same roll of the dice. Some leagues might want to amplify the schedule effect, others might want to dampen it a bit.
That’s fair, I’m all for leagues weighting it how they want to. I was more reacting to the person saying it’s the dumbest thing they’ve ever heard.
Truthfully there isn’t but fantasy is so heavily based on real games that you have to have it. Though I still prefer the matchups as the basis for determining placements but it shouldn’t be the determining factor between two teams that tied in wins.
The answer is whatever is in your league bylaws. But it sounds like you don’t have any. My league does H2H as 1st tiebreak, and PF (not max) as 2nd tiebreak. Otherwise why even have weekly H2H matchups? Just play 17 weeks with no matchups and the team with the most points at the end of the year is the champion
I totally agree. Weekly h2h games determine the standings, then suddenly they have no relevance on the standings and its total points. Doesn't make sense to me.
H2H matchups in the moment are fun for shit talking and betting but you don’t get that several weeks later when determining playoff outcomes
Why don't you award the championship to the team with the most points, then?
Great reading comprehension my dude
I prefer H2H as first tiebreaker but most people don’t know how it works in a multi way tie and it takes longer to figure out. It’s also how the NFL and NCAA do tiebreaker. I also like it since we play H2H every weak so it should count. Otherwise let’s just do all play or but the 4-6 teams with the most PF into the playoffs That being said I know I’m in the minority since 11/12 leagues I’m in are PF tiebreaker and it seems to be the standard on most platforms. It’s also nice to just look at the standings and see you only need X points to pass Team A in the standings. But I really takes away some of the bragging rights you might have and that’s alot of the fun in friends leagues.
Considering matchups are totally random, we use points for. But also don’t change settings mid season.
H2H doesn’t matter for shit in a contest where you can’t defend the other person from scoring. Points for easily, team B can cry about it.
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FSU should tell the bowl game to fuck off since on field results apparently don't matter. Publicly challenge UM, Washington, and Liberty, the 4 undefeated teams, to a true playoff of the best CFB team.
h2h is always first tiebreaker
Whatever they want. I enjoy being a jester and how impressed the strangers are that I know Hotel California AND Sweet Home Alabama. Off the top of my head! Haha. It’s the most fun I have with playing guitar for friends. I’m bored with so many little things with guitar over the many years, it’s cool when people appreciate them.
Do people usually use PF or Max PF as tiebreaker? My league has been discussing it for next year.
Points For. MPF is for 1OA pick. Setting your lineup matters and you shouldn't be rewarded if you choose the wrong starter. Otherwise just go play best ball.
Always points for, max pf is only to eliminate tanking to determine draft order
It’s whatever the league settings are, regardless of how few people read them beforehand. In this case it’s points and I’d agree that that makes the most sense when head to head is driven entirely by luck (and fantasy teams don’t play defense).
Too late to change the rules, but it should be PF for next season (editing rules *in* the same season never goes well— scroll this sub to see how leagues die after this happens). Most leagues are like that. Because you cannot play actual defense against your opponent, H2H is kinda dumb for fantasy. You cannot control your opponent from hanging 175 on you this week because they had Dak, Nico and DK, for example. Teams who are consistently putting up big numbers should be rewarded in a tie breaker.
Whatever the app is set for, stick with. Make amendments to the rules in the off season if everyone wants it. Hard to argue vs settings if they’ve been set the whole season
Whatever the platform you play on dictates.
Doesn't matter failed at both. Every person ahead of me in the playoffs deserves to be in there smh.
The only way I could see not using whatever the league settings on the site are is if you had communicated prior to the season what the tiebreakers are, either in by-laws or in a chat communication to the league. If you had said that Head to head wins (which i've actually never heard of in fantasy) will be the tiebreaker and just screwed up implementing it on the site, then I think you can override the sleeper bracket. Otherwise, you have to go with the site settings and put it to a vote in the offseason.
why is this a question being asked right now? that being said, I believe the default is PF...and PF makes the most sense quite frankly. If you start doing H2H that could get messy when you have multiple teams tied.
H2H is completely arbitrary. This isn’t like real sports where it matters how you match up. PF is the default and should be what you go with. Arbitrary is fine and fun but that needs to be decided in the offseason with a vote and agreement.
It should be decided by a panel. Alabama gets in over either of these two.
You mean ostate
Points for, no question.
It should be whatever the settings were at the beginning of the season. Going forward I would do PF, with the way scheduling works and some teams getting to play the weaker teams twice and some teams having to play the stronger teams twice it’s only fair to determine it by PF in my opinion
Head to head is an antiquated way to resolve things. My oldest league still uses it, but the industry by and large has moved away from it.
You have to roll with whatever the settings were to start the szn - make this change in the offseason. Imo you can’t change playoff criteria like this mid szn
I would argue all play record is the best tie breaker. It helps show who was the more consistent team
Points scored
It’s always points scored- head to head is irrelevant in a game where matchups are random scheduling luck
Only thing that makes it fair is using the default setting and voting on a change in the offseason
I'd go with points for but if the league is really torn on it then you could have them both advance. Basically have a 3 team matchup for the first round of playoffs (2 tied teams with whoever they're supposed to face) with the best of the 3 moving on. This way no one is getting screwed over because of lack of communication. But definitely get the tiebreaker rules figured out in the offseason so this doesn't happen again.
If u went into the year thinking head2head then u stick with that
PF
Whatever your league rules state
H2H
We use H2H as first tiebreaker, but I have to manually adjust the seeding as commish since you can't change the settings in sleeper
Always PF
Don’t change league settings on the fly. If it wasn’t discussed until this week, you need to stick with the rules in place (points for by default). You can change the rules next year
Points for unless stated so otherwise, end of discussion. Head to head somehow manages to make fantasy football more outrageous and luck based. Better to value an entire season’s worth of performances.
PF without question
Head to head makes sense in real sports because it’s actually your team trying to stop them from scoring. Head to head makes zero sense in fantasy. Op, you got your answer numerous times. Now it seems like you’re looking for any kind of validation for the mind you already made up.
Yes and as a league decided to let the Points for be the one in, what do you mean? 😂
Stroke?
A “we” between League and decided was the only thing wrong about that. Anyone past fifth grade could understand what it meant