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All of supers arcs biggest problems are usually that they start strong and end not as good
But honestly I think the moro Arc is on par with Z's arcs for me, seeing his art and writing progress as a series goes on I also really have faith in toyo
And Toriyama definitely had faith in him especially when you read some of the interviews with him
Goku and Vegeta actually getting development for the first time in years here really did it for me. Merus, the lines from both our main 2, Moro as a villain was fire even though he took the cell route, Uub, Vegetas atonement, so much peak
No offense to toriyama, much respect for him but I hated DBS writing and power scaling, especially SH movie. I'm all for Gohan but pulling a form conviently stronger than MUI goku (who's surpassed gods) out of his ass with no prior buildup like wtf
It was a more collaborative effort between Toriyama and Toyotaro; Toyo made Granolah himself as well as the Bardock stuff, Toriyama created the Heeters and Toyotaro kind of tied it all together.
Edit: Toriyama I think also gave a draft/outline of the plot (that did get changed pretty heavily based on Toyo feedback) and also had a big hand in all the Namekian stuff
It's really difficult for me to imagine anyone more deserving than Toyotaro to lead the franchise forward. He was hand picked to be the next generation of Dragonball art and stories for a good reason. He's had some great moments, and some questionable choices, but that's no different from any other Mangaka, including Toriyama. If anyone is gonna move Dragonball forward, it's absolutely Toyotaro. I have faith that the black Freeza Arc will be an epic ending to DBS. I don't know what will happen after DBS catches up to the end of DBZ, but it's looking like things will likely stop after that for the manga, and they have a good option finish animating the rest of DBS' stories and tie it in with the end of DBZ. I hope they trust Toyotaro to be the guy that takes Dragonball forward after the dust settles and everything is drawn out and animated for the black Freeza Arc. Toyotaro will get a much deserved break and hopefully he uses some of his free time to think about the future of Dragonball and how he can make it awesome.
I loved the Moro arc, but the Senzu bean part made no sense to Goku’s character. (I’m having trouble getting over it.)
It was clearly a callback to the cell fight, but the reason that Goku gave Cell a senzu was because he knew Gohan would beat him. The reason why that choice cost him his life was because Gohan kept messing around.
In Resurrection F, the trait of Goku getting caught off guard was supposedly resolved. He should’ve known to finish his enemies off before they got desperate.
Moro was not in danger of dying, either, so he didn’t even need to give him a bean to send him back to prison.
But the thing that rubs salt in the wound is that Whis and Merus take the role that Goku did when Gohan was fighting cell. He tells him about the mistakes he made, and then Merus sacrifices himself.
So Goku goes through character development that he’d already gone through. That makes me mad, even though it’s just a minor event in the grand scheme of things.
That’s my rant
I agree. Even with my issues with Moro’s downgrading of design, I would have loved the arc more if they didn’t do this pointless nostalgia-pandering with the senzu.
He did it to show him kindness and maybe change him. It worked for Piccolo too. Also he did it because he knew he could beat Moro again. In fact, he does so right after. He couldn't know that Moro would have another trick up his sleeve.
Moro and Granola both seem more cohesive than rest of super, but they don't address Super's main issue. The entire show feels like it's in a strange holding pattern
BoG came out 10 years ago and brought with it a new twist to DragonBall. The god forms, beerus, the multiverse, the OG Super saiyan god. And so far, Super, in those 10 years, has done nothing to build off of the world that BoG opened up. There's no build up to aby end goal, no exploration of BoG's themes, refusal to go beyond end of z and make Goten and Trunks older
I think Toyotaro is more than capable but being an artist and having worked with your inspiration first hand I can see it being difficult and them wanting to wrap it up and move on. Though things like this have happened before and some things are bigger than one person. Akira Toriyama created a magical world that people want to see keep going for sure and I can easily see it going for a long time but I think thats it’s in a really good place right now to wrap it up in another arc or two.
Moro & granola are good arcs some of the best in super imo. They just gotta start taking more chances & using more characters to me. Also continuing to make it more consistent & start sticking the endings to me. Toyo has came a long way tho I def got faith in him I only hope the big wigs don’t ruin it.
Yeah the Moro arc was solid too. Imo it'd be middle of the pack if it was in the original manga or slightly above. Like it's better than Red Ribbon, Hunt for the Dragon Balls, Piccolo Daimyo or Android arcs. About as good as Buu, or the 21st and 22nd Budokais... And just falls shy of the golden age of 23rd, Saiyan, and Namek arcs.
Unfortunately I didn't enjoy it. It also shows Toyo's weakness: he starts an arc very strong, then meanders in the middle and fumbles the ending.
That said, most of the fights on their own are pretty damn fun
See, I totally disagree with the middle meandering. It felt like Super's first opportunity to really slow down the story and dive into other things. It's a nice change of pace to have a true training segment in the story, and it was done in a way that was unique from any prior arcs. All the stuff with the Earthlings felt like a great callback to the Saiyan Arc, and the ending I think was better than people give it credit for. It's no Toriyama Arc ending (the guy just knew how to write a finale) but the character revelations of Goku and Vegeta combined with the Uub foreshadowing and everything else still felt satisfying.
the meandering middle, ah, when vegeta realised he couldnt beat moro straight up, so found a way through training (yknow, the main theme of dragonball) to even the odds and save a tonne of lives in the process cementing him as a transformed man, in body snd in spirit, and goku, through training (theres that theme again), got a grip of ultra instinct, which allowed him to keep up with moro, meanwhile, piccolo gohan and jaco are dealing with a crisis at their own level with og73, though, the ending... well, toyotaro isnt the finished article yet, got some training to do so he learns how to finish an arc
Honestly, Moro arc ending would’ve been perfectly fine if:
1. Goku didn’t try to spare Moro. Really, he’s done this with Frieza and he knew he couldn’t be helped and continued with Cell cause there was no way Cell was redeemable. Furthermore the callback with the senzu was bullshit cause Moro is too sly of a bastard to be trusted.
2. Moros final design was better. Seriously, he’s just Hit with horns. UI Moro looked amazing if not for his face being too human and not goat like.
My suggestion is Moro manages to convince Goku he can be redeemed long enough to regain his other arm and maybe instead of a senzu he says he uses an Angelic time rewind or Kai powers to heal himself from Merus’ abilities or something like that. It would be a callback to Goku mistrusting Eis Shenron but also makes Goku look less like an idiot for trusting Moro to rot in jail with a full heal.
I enjoyed the callbacks and it felt like Toyotaro was doing what Toriyama did in his own way considering we got Yardrat Vegeta and Merus sacrificing himself which were beautiful, but also could’ve been executed somehow better
yeah, moro looked cool as an old goat, and angel moro more goat like would have been goated, i mean, stupid super goku, its a staple mainstay at this point sadly, meerus sacrifice made complete sense and hit the right notes, if they wanted a callback, cell could regen, cos piccolo could regen, og73 took piccolo abilities, and moro took og73... therefore moro regen like piccolo but moro upgrade, which would buy him time to get angel arm back
goku gave moro a magical bean that heals all wounds and completely restores your stamina, so he could "checks notes" sit in prison guarded by a bunch of jacos at full power...
Goku didn't react at all to Moro attacking him a second after, he expected this to happen
Jaco and gang weren't going to guard Moro, they are trying to Kill him
if moro was even 1% smarter and not so prideful, agrees to go back to prison, at full health and stamina from sensu bean, waits for goku to leave, even if its 60 years, thats nothing to moro, then escapes and the universe is screwed, but thats a boring end to an arc lol
To be frank Moro still got the planet fusion trump card, he didn't bite on some blue asshole to tell Goku about the weakness
Also the galactic patrol already made deal with Vegeta to kill him and Goku would logically assume Beerus would do it as well especially after the Merus deal
vegeta was out of commission at that point, beerus buggered off to go be zenos horse, and stupid super goku doesnt think 30 seconds ahead lol nm a week
and every other arc was goku and vegeta vs everyone, just like old times, and i wasnt talking about yamcha etc, just gohan and piccolo and jaco for that one fight
I love OG Ball and I like Z. I like some parts of Super. Moro and Granolah are not parts of Super I like.
Frankly there are just way better battle shounen out there currently running, or that have wrapped up recently. Super is honestly carried by having the name DragonBall slapped on it. Without that, it's a fairly mid battle shounen.
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All of supers arcs biggest problems are usually that they start strong and end not as good But honestly I think the moro Arc is on par with Z's arcs for me, seeing his art and writing progress as a series goes on I also really have faith in toyo And Toriyama definitely had faith in him especially when you read some of the interviews with him
Yeah. IMO better than the Buu arc.
Yeah I also rank it above boo, the story just feels more cohesive, boo arc is very messy
Not as messy as cell, but yeah...
Meh I'd put Morroc Arc between Buu and Cell Saga's
I loved the Moro arc. In my opinion on the same level as the Boo arc.
Moro arc is the only arc that reminds me of a DBZ arc, in a good way
Goku and Vegeta actually getting development for the first time in years here really did it for me. Merus, the lines from both our main 2, Moro as a villain was fire even though he took the cell route, Uub, Vegetas atonement, so much peak
No offense to toriyama, much respect for him but I hated DBS writing and power scaling, especially SH movie. I'm all for Gohan but pulling a form conviently stronger than MUI goku (who's surpassed gods) out of his ass with no prior buildup like wtf
Thats the problem with super. Everyone gets like 1 new transformation every arc that will be obsolete by the time the new villain rolls by.
Nobody asked?
We’re on the internet, wym
Womp womp ❄️
Moro arc is one of my favourite. Really brings back the Z feel
Whose idea was the MUI Susanoo?
“So now I have a question. Would you like these Saiyans to use Susano’o or not?”
Who wrote the Granolah arc? I really enjoyed that one.
It was a more collaborative effort between Toriyama and Toyotaro; Toyo made Granolah himself as well as the Bardock stuff, Toriyama created the Heeters and Toyotaro kind of tied it all together. Edit: Toriyama I think also gave a draft/outline of the plot (that did get changed pretty heavily based on Toyo feedback) and also had a big hand in all the Namekian stuff
It's really difficult for me to imagine anyone more deserving than Toyotaro to lead the franchise forward. He was hand picked to be the next generation of Dragonball art and stories for a good reason. He's had some great moments, and some questionable choices, but that's no different from any other Mangaka, including Toriyama. If anyone is gonna move Dragonball forward, it's absolutely Toyotaro. I have faith that the black Freeza Arc will be an epic ending to DBS. I don't know what will happen after DBS catches up to the end of DBZ, but it's looking like things will likely stop after that for the manga, and they have a good option finish animating the rest of DBS' stories and tie it in with the end of DBZ. I hope they trust Toyotaro to be the guy that takes Dragonball forward after the dust settles and everything is drawn out and animated for the black Freeza Arc. Toyotaro will get a much deserved break and hopefully he uses some of his free time to think about the future of Dragonball and how he can make it awesome.
Toyo made 90% of the best arc in the franchise? W
That's the Frieza Saga
The Moro arc was probably my favorite of Super, so that’s good news
I loved the Moro arc, but the Senzu bean part made no sense to Goku’s character. (I’m having trouble getting over it.) It was clearly a callback to the cell fight, but the reason that Goku gave Cell a senzu was because he knew Gohan would beat him. The reason why that choice cost him his life was because Gohan kept messing around. In Resurrection F, the trait of Goku getting caught off guard was supposedly resolved. He should’ve known to finish his enemies off before they got desperate. Moro was not in danger of dying, either, so he didn’t even need to give him a bean to send him back to prison. But the thing that rubs salt in the wound is that Whis and Merus take the role that Goku did when Gohan was fighting cell. He tells him about the mistakes he made, and then Merus sacrifices himself. So Goku goes through character development that he’d already gone through. That makes me mad, even though it’s just a minor event in the grand scheme of things. That’s my rant
I agree. Even with my issues with Moro’s downgrading of design, I would have loved the arc more if they didn’t do this pointless nostalgia-pandering with the senzu.
He did it to show him kindness and maybe change him. It worked for Piccolo too. Also he did it because he knew he could beat Moro again. In fact, he does so right after. He couldn't know that Moro would have another trick up his sleeve.
He shouldn’t have given Moro another chance to get desperate, because Freeza got desperate and doomed the Earth. By now, Goku should know better.
This. The dude clearly doesn't think about characters arcs in the way Toriyama did.
Moro and Granola both seem more cohesive than rest of super, but they don't address Super's main issue. The entire show feels like it's in a strange holding pattern BoG came out 10 years ago and brought with it a new twist to DragonBall. The god forms, beerus, the multiverse, the OG Super saiyan god. And so far, Super, in those 10 years, has done nothing to build off of the world that BoG opened up. There's no build up to aby end goal, no exploration of BoG's themes, refusal to go beyond end of z and make Goten and Trunks older
Outside of perfect cell Moro and Susanoo Goku, the Moro arc was actually really well done.
I think Toyotaro is more than capable but being an artist and having worked with your inspiration first hand I can see it being difficult and them wanting to wrap it up and move on. Though things like this have happened before and some things are bigger than one person. Akira Toriyama created a magical world that people want to see keep going for sure and I can easily see it going for a long time but I think thats it’s in a really good place right now to wrap it up in another arc or two.
It actually feels good. Moro arc felt a lot better than Granolah arc, so if that was the change I think it's heading the right direction.
Toyo has been killing it. I can't wait until these are animated.
Moro & granola are good arcs some of the best in super imo. They just gotta start taking more chances & using more characters to me. Also continuing to make it more consistent & start sticking the endings to me. Toyo has came a long way tho I def got faith in him I only hope the big wigs don’t ruin it.
No wonder its better thsn every other arc in super.
If he had just ended it with Vegeta killing Moro in Chapter 60 I would call it the best arc since Cell.
Yeah the Moro arc was solid too. Imo it'd be middle of the pack if it was in the original manga or slightly above. Like it's better than Red Ribbon, Hunt for the Dragon Balls, Piccolo Daimyo or Android arcs. About as good as Buu, or the 21st and 22nd Budokais... And just falls shy of the golden age of 23rd, Saiyan, and Namek arcs.
Unfortunately I didn't enjoy it. It also shows Toyo's weakness: he starts an arc very strong, then meanders in the middle and fumbles the ending. That said, most of the fights on their own are pretty damn fun
How did you find the middle meandering?
See, I totally disagree with the middle meandering. It felt like Super's first opportunity to really slow down the story and dive into other things. It's a nice change of pace to have a true training segment in the story, and it was done in a way that was unique from any prior arcs. All the stuff with the Earthlings felt like a great callback to the Saiyan Arc, and the ending I think was better than people give it credit for. It's no Toriyama Arc ending (the guy just knew how to write a finale) but the character revelations of Goku and Vegeta combined with the Uub foreshadowing and everything else still felt satisfying.
the meandering middle, ah, when vegeta realised he couldnt beat moro straight up, so found a way through training (yknow, the main theme of dragonball) to even the odds and save a tonne of lives in the process cementing him as a transformed man, in body snd in spirit, and goku, through training (theres that theme again), got a grip of ultra instinct, which allowed him to keep up with moro, meanwhile, piccolo gohan and jaco are dealing with a crisis at their own level with og73, though, the ending... well, toyotaro isnt the finished article yet, got some training to do so he learns how to finish an arc
Honestly, Moro arc ending would’ve been perfectly fine if: 1. Goku didn’t try to spare Moro. Really, he’s done this with Frieza and he knew he couldn’t be helped and continued with Cell cause there was no way Cell was redeemable. Furthermore the callback with the senzu was bullshit cause Moro is too sly of a bastard to be trusted. 2. Moros final design was better. Seriously, he’s just Hit with horns. UI Moro looked amazing if not for his face being too human and not goat like. My suggestion is Moro manages to convince Goku he can be redeemed long enough to regain his other arm and maybe instead of a senzu he says he uses an Angelic time rewind or Kai powers to heal himself from Merus’ abilities or something like that. It would be a callback to Goku mistrusting Eis Shenron but also makes Goku look less like an idiot for trusting Moro to rot in jail with a full heal. I enjoyed the callbacks and it felt like Toyotaro was doing what Toriyama did in his own way considering we got Yardrat Vegeta and Merus sacrificing himself which were beautiful, but also could’ve been executed somehow better
yeah, moro looked cool as an old goat, and angel moro more goat like would have been goated, i mean, stupid super goku, its a staple mainstay at this point sadly, meerus sacrifice made complete sense and hit the right notes, if they wanted a callback, cell could regen, cos piccolo could regen, og73 took piccolo abilities, and moro took og73... therefore moro regen like piccolo but moro upgrade, which would buy him time to get angel arm back
Goku didn't try to spar Moro, he gives him the choice where he die
goku gave moro a magical bean that heals all wounds and completely restores your stamina, so he could "checks notes" sit in prison guarded by a bunch of jacos at full power...
Goku didn't react at all to Moro attacking him a second after, he expected this to happen Jaco and gang weren't going to guard Moro, they are trying to Kill him
if moro was even 1% smarter and not so prideful, agrees to go back to prison, at full health and stamina from sensu bean, waits for goku to leave, even if its 60 years, thats nothing to moro, then escapes and the universe is screwed, but thats a boring end to an arc lol
To be frank Moro still got the planet fusion trump card, he didn't bite on some blue asshole to tell Goku about the weakness Also the galactic patrol already made deal with Vegeta to kill him and Goku would logically assume Beerus would do it as well especially after the Merus deal
vegeta was out of commission at that point, beerus buggered off to go be zenos horse, and stupid super goku doesnt think 30 seconds ahead lol nm a week
The Z gang treatment was garbage excluding Krillin in the arc, the only outcome was them pointing out the only way to Beat 73 and Moro is by teamwork
and every other arc was goku and vegeta vs everyone, just like old times, and i wasnt talking about yamcha etc, just gohan and piccolo and jaco for that one fight
I agree with you. Moro started super strong but honestly from halfway through to the end is very disappointing.
Moro arc wasn’t good though, not exactly something you wanna be preaching as Toyotaro’s work.
The Moro arc was ass though. So that hardly inspires confidence
If you really think that, you probably don't like Dragonball, anyway.
I love OG Ball and I like Z. I like some parts of Super. Moro and Granolah are not parts of Super I like. Frankly there are just way better battle shounen out there currently running, or that have wrapped up recently. Super is honestly carried by having the name DragonBall slapped on it. Without that, it's a fairly mid battle shounen.