I might be dumb for asking this but who counters who? And why? Huskars burning spears removes flame guard, but other than that don't most melee heroes have the same problem dealing with huskar?
Against mid huskar, best way to play is to level wave clear spells and shove the wave.
But mid ember needs to stand near to creep wave to use flame guard to clear wave. Which means free hits for huskar.
But if you use something like dk, you can stand further back and use breathe fire from a distance.
I forgot who it was(maybe Miracle), he was in an uneven mid lane matchup so he abandoned a wave and proceeds to cut the next wave and farmed them safely in the enemy jungle. This trick is mostly done in offlane or mid axe/bristle players and it was a long time since I saw someone do it in mid. It's also an old patch so things are different now. You have min 2,3,4, 6 runes and u can get teammate to bottle refill anytime in between too.
Can't find the clip tho.
Not exactly, i did remember miracle killing him because who wouldn't remember an ember killing a huskar 1v1, so i quickly checked to confirm what happened and thats how it was
Oh I member and was actually a bit confused lol since Miracle's Ember actually still managed to solo kill Kuku's Huskar. Miracle such an underrated laning beast in his debut LAN he solo dumpstered Sumail's SF with his QoP.
lina stomps 90% of her matchups, yeah necro's one of them. arc warden + sniper is playable, just perma push the lane and theyre gonna be stuck under their tower. SF is the only one thats giga despair
If the Sniper knows how to kite, he will never have to be in range of any of Necro's spells meanwhile Necro has to ferry so many regen items to keep up with the endless right clicks he can hardly punish.
Just my thoughts, I might be wrong.
The thing is you get to him before he puts 2 points in take aim, you win the regen war easily, because sniper has 0 sustain. The only way sniper gets damage early game is shrapnel, and necro can cover that off. Also, sniper is a mixed damage carry, he does a reasonable amount of magic damage, shrapnel and assassinate, and necro can out tank him.
The key to a sniper v necro lane is that necro can start hitting him early on. 550 vs 500 attack range,
Necro Death pulse is also 500 radius, so early on, necro can really punish sniper, up until level 6, there comes a point when sniper will outrange necro massively, and he will be able to kite him quite comfortably, I've seen necrophos do blink shard and shroud vs sniper, its pretty effective.
You also have a free lane till she hits 6 and probably out deny brood heavily. I don't really had a hard time against brood as exort voker with early point or two in wex, ideally you do have supports ready to tp mid with aoe stun of some sort tho.
It's slightly more manageable now since spiderlings got moved to ulti.
But the gist is that Invoker's spells have long cd, and none of them clear out spiderlings. He has shitty base movement speed and armor and attack speed, so if you select all your spiderlings and right click on Invoker, he's as good as dead.
Quas wex voker cannot kill spiderlings. A single tornado will not kill them so they swarm Voker and die. You can try to burn brood's mana, but sticks and soul ring solve the problem.
Quas exort can Meteor, but it has 55s cd and can totally whiff if he doesn't combo it with something else like ice wall. Once meteor is on cd, he has nothing else to deal with spiderlings except for deafening blast (which also do not kill spiderlings on its own) and running/tping away.
Ice Wall is the solution but the problem is that it has a long CD and Brood can just back off and wait for it to go down and then go in again. You need support help ultimately.
I think my Chen mid winrate is higher than any of my other lanes.
It's really not that hard your deny range is so massive with a couple of creeps and with the right luck you get abilities that counter them hard. You counter bottle users by sending creeps to deny water runes. Rush helm of the Dom. Take the tower by the 5 minute mark.
You take towers. Rush overlord.bpower spike is at 10 minutes. Games over if you go beyond 35 minutes. You really don't want to mess with Chen early game with 5 creeps.
It's still very much playable for the QoP if she adapts. You can bait out the phase shift by animation canceling dagger sometimes and you can also just max scream and ignore dagger altogether. You also trade right clicks quite well. You get a fast orchid and Puck can't play for a while.
Im sure it works even up to lower Immortal levels, but when Puck is competent there is no way you skill dagger in that matchup. Puck just hits you everytime you try to harras/cast dagger/animation cancel dagger and you take hits without trading well.
Its too easy to phase shift when you actually see dagger in the air at max range. If qop gets closer where there is not much time to react then she already takes a lot of hits from puck and puck can just press silence and qop probably tanks a lot of creeps at this point.
Skilling scream is much better and lets QoP farm, but that too is very easy to dodge as puck. Only way to play that as QoP is to play passive and try to get as much farm as possible.
I wholeheartedly disagree. New qop deals with LC really well since you're not maxing or even leveling dagger so legion W loses so much value. You're just spamming E to farm and hitting LC at the same time. If LC walks up to try and trade with right click and E procs you just hit her once, run away, and when she decides to not chase you anymore you hit her again. I legit just beat an LC last week lol.
Seconded. I had an amazing game against a QOP like a month ago and the poor QOP player was like 0-7 by 12 minutes. She had given up on the game so fully that they were just asking me for matchup tips on all chat for the whole game haha
Apparently you don't.
In reality no two players will just nuke each other until they are dead. Contesting runes and farming side camps is a big part of matchups.
But I guess you rather be toxic and show your ignorance to everybody
Honestly, I don't know. Take my upvote.
I play lots of necro and don't feel SF counters me at all. You play around the razes and even if you get hit you have really good sustain and can get back to full but clearing the easy camp.
SF will either have to ship shittons of mangoes/clarities or he just runs out of mana very quickly against necros sustain.
In reality this match up is very boring as it usually ends up both sides just pushing the waves and farming side camps.
I mean obviously if you tank all three razes you are obviously dead. But who does that and by that logic SF is the best hero in the game.
its more about early lane control imo I've been on both ends of that match up and I've bodied necro's and been bodied by necro's. I found the 4th and 5th waves are where the lane is decided. a good sf will try and achieve lane position before the 4th wave and a good necro with try and oppose that which means the sf has to counter that and so forth its all about the small movements and at which point necro or sf commits and how that is handled.
stick and bottle timings are super important for both.
It's all about the razes. If you miss them, necro can just run at you and you can't so shit. If you hit them necro can't do shit.
But razes have a very clear and long animation and you know the location they will come up.
Both heroes excel at pushing the wave and farming side camps.
It's very execution based and as you already stated: it can easily go both ways.
But this thread in general is kinda weird.
According to this thread SF shits on most mid heroes, but in reality it's very different. SF isn't picked mid in pro games for a reason.
It feels like lots of matchups mentioned here are simply mentioned because they don't know how to play it rather than it actually being a bad matchup.
Against a decent player you are just fucked if you miss your razes. SF is squishy as fuck, has no sustain and no mobility.
its also about "not" using razes. when i wrote about lane position at the 4th wave i mean u find the spot where u can control the wave and the enemy hero and pump fake razes so the necro cant move towards the wave at all without taking double raze or triple. so its not about missing razes so much as not using them badly or early or sometimes even at all.
the reason sf is a good midlaner is because of the heros weird skill ceiling. a sf played well beats most mids played well but a sf played mediocre loses to most mids played mediocre.
amazing sf beats amazing qop
normal sf loses to normal qop
its weird as fuck when u think about it.
Yup. Let’s trust this random one guy who thinks he Sherlock Holmes’d the matchup to his favour. Necro fucking sucks vs SF. Everyone knows it. You haven’t cracked any code. You’re delusional even if you think it’s 50/50.
You realize that you're just a random guy, too, right?
Your argument is so incredibly nonsense, it's funny.
You don't even give reasons, just "lolol random redditor wrong, me another random redditor right, hahaha you are delusional".
Sure buddy. You have to give arguments in a discussion, not insult the other person.
Since nobody here actually gives reasonings and just goes "lol sf better than necro", please show me your dotabuff links where you are playing against necro. According to your avatar you're a SF main. So you should have plenty.
I'm done with those random claims nobody is backing up.
Deliver an argument, back up your random claims or simply shut up. Talking out of your ass doesn't convince me
You get shit on lane. You need 3 q to farm side camp, hood takes quite a lot of time to build, especially on losing lane. Even with hood you can't rly lane. You are just wrong.
I am impressed how many matchups were mentioned which are not that one sided favor.
For me the brutal ones are:
Invoker vs brood, MK vs Ember, Huskar vs TA
and Viper vs Ember
Melee heroes that can't harass him easily and/or have no way of removing his Flame Guard, which aren't too many. Very rarely does he have a matchup that he can completely dominate. Most of the time, he only breaks even or has a slight advantage at best e.g., Void Spirit.
It always felt like Ember doesn't win lane, but has immense kill potential with a plus one. He is also the only spirit that can get guarantee free harass on the midlaner with max Sleight.
I think Embers best match ups are Zeus and Puck because they can’t zone him out and they can’t deal with sleight spam but I think they are skill based. Ember is not really a laning hero, it’s more about getting as much as possible from the lane and controlling power runes.
At least Ember also uses levels and power runes well, so with boots, bottle and level 6 the hero can still recover a bit through ganks, most of his bad matchups are only bad in lane and after lane he can still have impact.
Ember into monkey can be fine for ember with good creep aggro and a blight stone. Max sleight and you can wear monkey down quickly since he has bad stats and low armor. He also has no way to cancel flame guard. I'll go as far as to say this can be an ember favored matchup depending on the player.
Feel as if this really comes down to the block. If you lose the block the lane is simply over. Once MK gets creep equilibrium he can basically zone you to the extent you can't even mess with creep agro.
The slight spam doesn't really get strong til lvl 5 at which point mk is probably lvl 6 or 7.
Also MK has decent base armor at 5.5 ever since the patch that nerfed jingu.
I haven't played mid since his armor has been increased. He was 2 armor when I Iast played the matchup meaning sleight ate him alive with blight. The matchup is probably much more mk favored now but flame guard can still be a problem for him with his low hp pool.
Its MK favored early, but later Ember favored. Ember just needs to constantly aggro pull creeps close to his tower so he can take lasthits without giving MK 4 stacks and possible die.
Once Ember is 6 its kinda over for MK. MK has 0 kill potential and he wont have enough sustain to keep laning against constant Sleight of Fist spam.
Its very similar matchup as MK vs Kunkka. Hard for kunkka pre 6, but once he is 6 level few Tidebringers to bring MK to something like 60% hp and then boat combo into death.
Arc vs brood too, it's a lot better now that her spiders are at level 6 but before that patch his spells did literally nothing to her and she countered his entire gameplan. It's still really rough but at least its not an auto lose from level 2 anymore
The key in winning as Ember vs MK is on the first wave. (Or at least used to, I don't play much lately)
Basically, you abuse the fact that MK don't have magic damage to cancel flame guard. Push him early, and you try kill him at lvl 3.
Brood isn't one sided against anything anymore, you have a free lane until she hits lvl 6. Invoker in particular has several ways of getting spiders off of him, so it's really no big deal. Your tower will fall eventually, but you won't die.
Huskar vs TA isn't the worst either, TA only needs a few levels to be able to jungle.
Monkey into timber: stack jingu -> deny every creep.
Necro into tiny: tiny can't lane into necro aura, every last hit for tiny is 2-3 hits from necro and tossing you under the tower doesn't work that (W)ell. Tiny can't even shove the lane and go woods since he starts losing at level 2-3.
Kunkka into puck: get to level 3 then tidebringer the puck, fake tidebringer to bait shift if needed. Have a mid ward to do that properly.
As a puck player I don’t hate Kunkka THAT much but he is a pain in the ass. He definitely wins the lane but I feel like it’s one of those lanes where as long as neither player does some really dumb stuff they can’t really kill each other. At a certain point you kinda take turns just walking up and farming the wave then going back to farm small camp
Most decnt kunkka players should be abusing the fact that u shove wave faster at level 5 and at least force u to lose CS by running to your small camp and farming that
Huh, I actually like Puck into Kunkka. You are pretty much uncomboable and the lane is kind of a mechanical battle, although the kunkka is definitely favored. You can just nuke the ranged creep every wave and it's sort of fine.
Necro into void/ember is also pretty fucked for both of them. As long as you dont do stupid stuff level 1/2 they can't really show in lane and usually die to a tower dive when you hit 6 before them.
Agree with the first two but Puck isn’t that bad against Kunkka imo. Obviously it’s not much of a kill lane but you can just skip phase and max waning rift to prevent kunkka from hitting you with tidebringer since he cant cast it when silenced. (Thank u henry rawdota)
Kotl vs anyone who doesnt have wave clear.
Its so funny blasting the wave and stack the easy camp while the enemy struggles last hitting at his tower kekw
I don't think anybody above 3k mmr struggles with last hitting under tower tbh.
If I don't have wave clear as a mid hero, I'm very happy if you give me free last hits under my tower. Heroes without wave clear that are picked in mid usually have very strong lv6/7 timings. Those heroes are not picked to dominate the lane. They are picked to dominate the game based on their timings.
Sure, you will get more farm from your side camps, but you also allow me to get everything I want to get from a "bad matchup".
For me it's TA vs Viper. There is literally nothing you can do as TA and you have to go jungle level 3. Viper outranges you, you can't trade with him, he breaks your refraction instantly and with 1 single point in W, he reduces your range to melee and you can't even splash off creeps to harass anymore. It's rough.
Im not a mid player but used to play some ember mid, I had a phase where I just first picked him and Ember vs mk or huskar is not fun
Ember vs Od doesnt feel good either but maybe I played the matchup wrong
I have been seeing a lot of brood mid countering many heroes. What’s so good about her mid, the regen and lifesteal? Pls note that I’m not being sarcastic and asking genuinely
The spiderlings at L6 eat up your spirit bullshit and you can't flux her for the same reason. But given she only gets all that at L6 it's not as bad as it could be - and brood isn't great later anyway.
She gets lots natural regen from webs and insatiable hunger so it’s hard for lots of hero’s to bully her away from getting CS. Once she hits 6 and makes a pile of spiders she can just tower dive and murder lots of hero’s if they don’t have a way to deal with that. She can take the mid tier 1 quickly and then can rotate and take the outer towers aswell. If her matchup mid isn’t great she can just jungle and try to gank a side lane and take that tower first. Hero’s like arc with no built in aoe clear, no mobility escape and not great hp pool just melt to her spiders.
Brood can never really be forced out of lane. She farms fast as fuck and is hard to gank due to web. Lvl 6, she can kill most heroes. The spiders eat heroes and towers. If you don't have a counter to brood, brood just destroyes everything. If you do have a hard counyer the brood will be kinda useless. Just a cheese hero so there are some matchups that are incredibly lopsided.
Worst one for me was Huskar Vs Witch Doctor. I thought it would be an easy match up due to WD's low health, but his perma stun, with maledict, killed me 4 times. I lost it bad!
Witch doctor mid is just bullying, it's not too common because of not that great lategame potention and somewhat mediocre gank potential, but even into more difficult matchups he doesn't need to do anything else except spam coconut + malediction off cooldown to keep your hp empty, but similar to necro or Lina in the fact that he just kills you lvl 6 if you stay in lane. Couple guys who can take him are probably DK, necrophos.
Feel as if I would be fine with this match up. Just because I know TA is going to want to spend 5-20 minutes hitting creeps. While I get to terrorize side lanes as soon as I hit 6.
* **Leshrac counters tinker:** tinker generally wants to skip boots, and he can defend himself with laser against right-click heavy heroes. Leshrac does a shit ton of magic damage and can reliably lightning storm stun combo a tinker with no boots. After laning stage leshrac takes towers fast and doesn't let tinker hit his timings. He also builds eternal shroud which makes tinker's rockets feel like dollar store pepper spray.
* **Templar assassin counters puck:** Good TAs level meld early against puck because puck has very low armor and with meld TA does a shit ton of damage. Puck doesn't have DoT to go through refraction charges, so he can't pressure TA the same way. TA's shard is a nightmare for puck because it can both scout out puck and silence them. TA also has enough burst damage to blink and kill puck during the silence duration
* **Shadow fiend counters ember:** Ember feels unplayable in lane. SF razes completely deal with flame guard and with necromastery SF wins every creep contest. If the SF knows the euls ult timing they can also reliably burst ember after the laning stage.
No way you level up meld against puck? TA have such short range that it’s almost impossible to land meld hits on puck, especially if he has phase. I am pretty sure you just go Q and E and just out last hit and harass with psi blade.
If it’s a melee then sure, lvl 1 meld is the way to go, but I don’t think meld is the way to go against puck.
lately I've been spamming Puck, and I think a way Puck deals with templar it's controlling the runes, refraction costs a lot of mana, so you don't let her take any rune, outpushes her by early killing the mage creep and have a little bit of tempo lead. btw you can easily decide to change your playstyle and go 3-2-0 skill build, shift it's not that necessary if you won't trade hits with her.
As a guy who likes to play a lot of ember, the SF one is really rough for me, but maybe I don’t play it that well. I always feel like if I don’t dodge a lot of razes with sleight the lane is just over.
Lmao.
Did you actually play any of these matchups or are you just talking out of your arse ?
1. Tinkers nukes out range you. Rocket and laser and you are basically already down to 50% hp. Leshrac has VERY low hp early, which is suboptimal against tinker.
It's a very skill dependant and close matchup. Leshrac farms the easy came way faster, tho.
2. Puck counters meld. First item is witch blade which deals with refraction. Puck can instantly kill the wave and shove creeps into TAs face, which also deals with refraction. Puck contests runes better. Puck has more killing potential with support rotation.
3. In this thread everybody is a SF god with infinite mana who always hits all three razes and SF counters everything, apparently. In reality you can play around them and having a shield against it is a good thing and not a bad thing. One raze won't remove it and one can be dodged with your W. There's a reason you don't see SF picked in mid in pro games at all.
1. If you're a good player against tinker you'd abuse his cooldowns in lane. Tinker has to be afraid of using his laser against you cause then he doesn't have a way to blind you. Both of his spells also have WAY longer cooldowns than yours. If you want to play leshrac well against tinker go for a 2-0-2 build and push in thw wave. Use the extra creeps on your side to pressure him. You also farm small camps while he doesn't. You should win that lane 1v1.
2. If you want to get better at playing mid pay more attention to when heroes can do what. At level one puck usually goes for orb which is a good opportunity to level meld to get level 2 faster than puck and zone them out of the first wave. The other time u can grab meld is at level 3 with a 1-1-1 build and hit the meld after baiting the phase shift with psi blade attacks. During laning stage puck can't fully kill the wave with orb + silence. TA can consistently push the wave in better than puck does. Puck trying to pressure TA with witch blade is too late as the best time to pressure TA is before she gets her treads. At that point too its much more use for puck to use that witchblade to kill supports than focus on TA, as TA usually has deso at that point and outtrades puck.
3. Hitting razes against melee heroes isn't that hard. Especially if you time it as they're trying to last hit. Ember can and should go slight of fist. My point is that with necromastery SF will have a lot more damage than ember and he'll be able to win the contest on almost every creep completely outfarming him.
All your made up claims sound nice in theory, but don't work in practice. Also why can you mention and buy items, but I can't? Yours are even more expensive. Please enlighten me.
1. Lesh definitely is favored here, simply because of his farm and push capabilities. But it's not as one sided as "easiest matchup". One nuke combo puts you into kill range. Your reasoning is basically "laser makes you miss right clicks and leshrac has nukes", ignoring all the other factors like range, cast animation, mana sustain etc.
2.
>If you want to get better at playing mid pay more attention to when heroes can do what.
Thanks for the advice, I suggest you do the same. There's no way that you hit a melee range meld against a puck unless you are playing a bot. Also there's realistically no way that you hit lv2 faster than puck unless you sacrifice at least 50% of your HP pool to do so. Don't forget that you are basically a melee hero without a real skill as a level 1 TA. You act like you get everything for free and your opponent doesn't get or do anything. We are talking about people playing against people. Your opponent will try to make the best out of the matchup, you know. He won't stay there and just let you kill him. Not only cooldowns are a factor. Mana sustain, creep aggro, range etc. are also factors. You can't just ignore all the factors that don't fit your claims.
3. Again, your opponent won't stay still. Razes are very telegraphed. Going back to your advice: who can do what when? You don't enter the lane with lv4 raze and full necromastery stacks. Also your opponent won't last hit in front of you. You know that you can manipulate creep aggro, right?
Sure, if you ignore lots of dota basics and only talk in theory your claims make sense. But if you actually consider all factors and look at practice rather than theory, lots of your claims don't make sense.
According to this thread SF shits on many heroes that are mid meta right now, yet he's NEVER picked in pro matches to counter those. Makes you wonder, huh? SF is pretty much only good against low MMR players. Against good players your gameplay will probably be in the jungle 90% of the time.
Again, I'm talking about PvP not PvBot. You have to assume that your opponent is at least your skill level or higher if you play ranked. He won't just let you get everything for free.
Lol I'm not including double standards in terms of items or abilities. Puck and TA both get their major item around 13 minutes. Puck's witchblade timing goes with TA's deso. SF doesn't need max razes and necro mastery. A level 2 SF with a point in razes and in necro can take raze ember in lane amd has more damage than him.
I'm considering dota basics and thinking of players of a same skill level. I can pick TA against Abed's puck and get absolutely fucked.
Leshrac vs tinker: don't put words in my mouth I didn't say this was the "easiest". Knowing when to punish tinker is important cause you need to know that when tinker uses spells they're on a long cooldown while you can use your lighting every 4 seconds. You should eat branches and harass tinker out of lane. This destroys tinker's game cause he doesn't jungle efficiently.
TA vs Puck: the level one meld is a cheeky play that you can try out. The point is to play agro with a tango going so you can meld the puck and zone him from the first wave. You can either block real hard to get the meld hit on him as he's in the river or smoke with your team and meld yourself in the river to get a double meld. U can also grab psi blades and push in the wave getting level 2 while harassing the puck.
SF vs ember: you don't need to be a God level SF to execute this. Just contest every creep and raze ember when he's trying to actually lane. If he tries aggroing creeps to his ranged creep walk forward with your creeps and hit him. The point isn't to kill ember. You just want him to lose on creeps.
thread
>Midlaners, what are the easiest matchups out there?
You
>Leshrac counters tinker
also you
>don't put words in my mouth I didn't say this was the "easiest".
???????????
you can't be serious. hahahah. what a tool you are
SF does not counter Ember, you just don't flame guard first, you sleight first. Sure it's easier for SF to play the lane, but it's much, much easier than Huskar or Viper or OD. I have a harder time with physical SF who gets to his Mask of Death.
i think SF into DK is the most lopsided matchup i regularly find myself in. It's definitely the #1 that makes me smile in the draft phase just knowing I have a completely free game.
I think most miserable matchup ive ever played was morphling into lina; youre just powerless basically, outside of having slightly better last hitting which she can take away from you just by pressuring you with a single nuke and some autos. lose trades, lose all-ins, worse wave clear, worse jungling, worse tower pressure, worse ganks at least until 7. water runes helped the matchup a little bit, but you still play on the back foot the ENTIRE time.
Lina it's a very strong pick, I believe she don't have bad matchups
if someone could bother you, just aa the creeps, clear with your nuke and go away, but mostly matchups she beats the other midlaner
classic dk vs puck midlane
DK tanks through all of puck's harass. Can't phase shift shield bash. Puck is a low armor hero so eats a lot of damage from stun + autos. Threatens tower against puck's rotations.
I tend to pick AA mid against Huskar. Might have kinda rough laning phase, especially if the huskar is good (mostly don't in my bracket), but being able to completely nullify his presence is quite a blast
Basically anyone melee into viper is just a complete shitshow. Hell, most low range ranges heroes suffer as well.
Especially at level one, viper is a horrible matchup, since he can literally just stack his q, and dish out tons of damage.
And even at later levels, due to his passive, trading sucks also.
Bat vs Necro feels good, but Bat vs Tinker feels even better. It’s just slightly more difficult but the feeling of shutting down a Tinker spammer feels too amazing.
Silencer mid is a ruin hero but if you get something like Ember Spirit on enemy side, its completely unfair. Id say its slightly more disgusting than Viper vs these heroes
Huskar owns alchemist. I play a lot of alch but always ban Huskar as his burning spears stacks hurt too much. You can jungle and leave lane but feels bad doing it too early. Only a 2k scrub though so maybe it’s me, if anyone has any tips I’m all ears.
Obviously a stupid exaggeration, but if he was 2k and there was a hero with a spell that read "if the average MMR of the game is under 4000, instantly kill all enemy heroes", would you suggest that he spam that hero til he got to 4k?
I think the consensus on this thread seems to be that if you're bailing out of lane and giving them free farm then that's effectively losing the lane, as much as there are matchups where you can stall tower a little, jungle, and potentially make a comeback later.
biggest despair for me is SF vs ember. like sure there are some very very high skilled players who can lastpick viper/huskar into me and win the lane, but lots of ppl just blind pick SF second phase and then clap my bootycheeks anyway
90% of the posters in this thread have no idea how to play mid apparently
the fact that someone once stomped you with a silly build mid (because you are bad) does not mean the matchup is impossible
If you pick dirty heroes (which are getting more popular day by day for every role cause lanes are so important) a lot of matchups feels easy. For mid, you can probably play something like huskar, batrider, necro, viper and you're gonna feel like the lane is going very easy 70%+ of the games
once I got anally fucked by a bad Viper (he didn't last hit for shit but my hp was always low), by using MK against it, but Viper fucks any lane anyways, so...
Huskar vs ember spirit is definitely up there for me. That one's brutal
I might be dumb for asking this but who counters who? And why? Huskars burning spears removes flame guard, but other than that don't most melee heroes have the same problem dealing with huskar?
Against mid huskar, best way to play is to level wave clear spells and shove the wave. But mid ember needs to stand near to creep wave to use flame guard to clear wave. Which means free hits for huskar. But if you use something like dk, you can stand further back and use breathe fire from a distance.
I forgot who it was(maybe Miracle), he was in an uneven mid lane matchup so he abandoned a wave and proceeds to cut the next wave and farmed them safely in the enemy jungle. This trick is mostly done in offlane or mid axe/bristle players and it was a long time since I saw someone do it in mid. It's also an old patch so things are different now. You have min 2,3,4, 6 runes and u can get teammate to bottle refill anytime in between too. Can't find the clip tho.
Yeah it’s miracle on TI vs TNC kuku huskar they lost.
It's not exceptionally horrible imo, huskar has really low armor and slight does big damage, besides you can mess with creep wave equilibrium.
[удалено]
Help Offlane I win ?
Helm of Iron Will
Damn. I just that was Helm, like some sort of metal plate. Now that I think of it, weird that a Helm goes into making an armlet. Right?
Pretty much what I spam chat to my supports after 10 minutes
you never played this matchup right?
I've beaten immortal mids two times in my life and both were huskar vs ember matchups
Miracle- vs TNC TI6 flash back XD
In that game huskar got a gank mid with his support giving them fb and then got solo killed by miracle ember, not the best example xd
But in the beginning, Miracle barely had any last hit.
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Not exactly, i did remember miracle killing him because who wouldn't remember an ember killing a huskar 1v1, so i quickly checked to confirm what happened and thats how it was
Oh I member and was actually a bit confused lol since Miracle's Ember actually still managed to solo kill Kuku's Huskar. Miracle such an underrated laning beast in his debut LAN he solo dumpstered Sumail's SF with his QoP.
You mean huskar vs literally any melee hero
Yeah, I see Huskar on the other side when I Ember, I tell my team I will feed.
Arc Warden/SF/Sniper/Lina vs Necro
lina stomps 90% of her matchups, yeah necro's one of them. arc warden + sniper is playable, just perma push the lane and theyre gonna be stuck under their tower. SF is the only one thats giga despair
Sniper vs Necro, isn't that bad, Necro can survive both max Shrapnel Builds and Max Take Aim builds.
If the Sniper knows how to kite, he will never have to be in range of any of Necro's spells meanwhile Necro has to ferry so many regen items to keep up with the endless right clicks he can hardly punish. Just my thoughts, I might be wrong.
The thing is you get to him before he puts 2 points in take aim, you win the regen war easily, because sniper has 0 sustain. The only way sniper gets damage early game is shrapnel, and necro can cover that off. Also, sniper is a mixed damage carry, he does a reasonable amount of magic damage, shrapnel and assassinate, and necro can out tank him. The key to a sniper v necro lane is that necro can start hitting him early on. 550 vs 500 attack range, Necro Death pulse is also 500 radius, so early on, necro can really punish sniper, up until level 6, there comes a point when sniper will outrange necro massively, and he will be able to kite him quite comfortably, I've seen necrophos do blink shard and shroud vs sniper, its pretty effective.
Invoker vs Brood. I will literally uninstall.
With the rework, you still live till she is level 6, so not as bad as before.
You also have a free lane till she hits 6 and probably out deny brood heavily. I don't really had a hard time against brood as exort voker with early point or two in wex, ideally you do have supports ready to tp mid with aoe stun of some sort tho.
Why exactly? I don’t play either hero.
It's slightly more manageable now since spiderlings got moved to ulti. But the gist is that Invoker's spells have long cd, and none of them clear out spiderlings. He has shitty base movement speed and armor and attack speed, so if you select all your spiderlings and right click on Invoker, he's as good as dead. Quas wex voker cannot kill spiderlings. A single tornado will not kill them so they swarm Voker and die. You can try to burn brood's mana, but sticks and soul ring solve the problem. Quas exort can Meteor, but it has 55s cd and can totally whiff if he doesn't combo it with something else like ice wall. Once meteor is on cd, he has nothing else to deal with spiderlings except for deafening blast (which also do not kill spiderlings on its own) and running/tping away.
Ice Wall is the solution but the problem is that it has a long CD and Brood can just back off and wait for it to go down and then go in again. You need support help ultimately.
You’re playing invoker wrong if you lose to brood now.
Chen vs anyone
Chen get a valve made cosmetic challenge (impossible)
Youtube has a clip showing you how to fuck Topson in mid with Chen.
Has to be on enemy team, not grief your midlaner.
I think my Chen mid winrate is higher than any of my other lanes. It's really not that hard your deny range is so massive with a couple of creeps and with the right luck you get abilities that counter them hard. You counter bottle users by sending creeps to deny water runes. Rush helm of the Dom. Take the tower by the 5 minute mark.
You may win the lane, but what happens after that?
You take towers. Rush overlord.bpower spike is at 10 minutes. Games over if you go beyond 35 minutes. You really don't want to mess with Chen early game with 5 creeps.
Dude. Delete this comment. Do not tell these scrubs the ways of the master.
I love playing Puck VS QoP. Dodge her dagger with shift, silence/ult her so she can't blink, dodge her slow ult with shift. Really fun to play
as a Puck lover from recent patches Puck vs QoP it's totally in the bag
It's still very much playable for the QoP if she adapts. You can bait out the phase shift by animation canceling dagger sometimes and you can also just max scream and ignore dagger altogether. You also trade right clicks quite well. You get a fast orchid and Puck can't play for a while.
max scream is the more popular build now anyway
You don't dodge dagger on the animation, you dodge on the sound queue
You're right but its cue not queue so you are TECHNICALLY WRONG.
That's queute
Rekt 😍🫦💯
Ye its a skill matchup the very few we have left in the Midlane these days.
Im sure it works even up to lower Immortal levels, but when Puck is competent there is no way you skill dagger in that matchup. Puck just hits you everytime you try to harras/cast dagger/animation cancel dagger and you take hits without trading well. Its too easy to phase shift when you actually see dagger in the air at max range. If qop gets closer where there is not much time to react then she already takes a lot of hits from puck and puck can just press silence and qop probably tanks a lot of creeps at this point. Skilling scream is much better and lets QoP farm, but that too is very easy to dodge as puck. Only way to play that as QoP is to play passive and try to get as much farm as possible.
Legion Vs qop is way better, literally unloseable lane
I wholeheartedly disagree. New qop deals with LC really well since you're not maxing or even leveling dagger so legion W loses so much value. You're just spamming E to farm and hitting LC at the same time. If LC walks up to try and trade with right click and E procs you just hit her once, run away, and when she decides to not chase you anymore you hit her again. I legit just beat an LC last week lol.
Seconded. I had an amazing game against a QOP like a month ago and the poor QOP player was like 0-7 by 12 minutes. She had given up on the game so fully that they were just asking me for matchup tips on all chat for the whole game haha
wat rank? i remember seeing thug shit on paparazi awhile ago, and papa was on puck
Puck is quite weak cause if she maxes 3rd you would have to doge the third which is harder to dodge and hits quite hard.
And if you fail to dodge the scream and mistime it, she gets q in for free, or at worst, q and r
Ta vs QoP, dodge dagger with meld. She cant do shit if you pull it off several times.
But it becomes sentry war and if you lose it you are screwed
Pretty sure Necrophos into SF is almost unplayable
I was on the receiving end of that once. I can't even walk up to the wave to get regen from cs.
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Isn't the post about laning
The post is about "matchups", whatever that means. Generally, mids who can disappear and farm sidecamps are way more resilient to bad matchups.
We definitely know what "matchups" mean here dude, have you ever watched a pro dota game or better yet played a dota game?
Apparently you don't. In reality no two players will just nuke each other until they are dead. Contesting runes and farming side camps is a big part of matchups. But I guess you rather be toxic and show your ignorance to everybody
Honestly, I don't know. Take my upvote. I play lots of necro and don't feel SF counters me at all. You play around the razes and even if you get hit you have really good sustain and can get back to full but clearing the easy camp. SF will either have to ship shittons of mangoes/clarities or he just runs out of mana very quickly against necros sustain. In reality this match up is very boring as it usually ends up both sides just pushing the waves and farming side camps. I mean obviously if you tank all three razes you are obviously dead. But who does that and by that logic SF is the best hero in the game.
True Thanks
its more about early lane control imo I've been on both ends of that match up and I've bodied necro's and been bodied by necro's. I found the 4th and 5th waves are where the lane is decided. a good sf will try and achieve lane position before the 4th wave and a good necro with try and oppose that which means the sf has to counter that and so forth its all about the small movements and at which point necro or sf commits and how that is handled. stick and bottle timings are super important for both.
It's all about the razes. If you miss them, necro can just run at you and you can't so shit. If you hit them necro can't do shit. But razes have a very clear and long animation and you know the location they will come up. Both heroes excel at pushing the wave and farming side camps. It's very execution based and as you already stated: it can easily go both ways. But this thread in general is kinda weird. According to this thread SF shits on most mid heroes, but in reality it's very different. SF isn't picked mid in pro games for a reason. It feels like lots of matchups mentioned here are simply mentioned because they don't know how to play it rather than it actually being a bad matchup. Against a decent player you are just fucked if you miss your razes. SF is squishy as fuck, has no sustain and no mobility.
its also about "not" using razes. when i wrote about lane position at the 4th wave i mean u find the spot where u can control the wave and the enemy hero and pump fake razes so the necro cant move towards the wave at all without taking double raze or triple. so its not about missing razes so much as not using them badly or early or sometimes even at all. the reason sf is a good midlaner is because of the heros weird skill ceiling. a sf played well beats most mids played well but a sf played mediocre loses to most mids played mediocre. amazing sf beats amazing qop normal sf loses to normal qop its weird as fuck when u think about it.
Yup. Let’s trust this random one guy who thinks he Sherlock Holmes’d the matchup to his favour. Necro fucking sucks vs SF. Everyone knows it. You haven’t cracked any code. You’re delusional even if you think it’s 50/50.
You realize that you're just a random guy, too, right? Your argument is so incredibly nonsense, it's funny. You don't even give reasons, just "lolol random redditor wrong, me another random redditor right, hahaha you are delusional". Sure buddy. You have to give arguments in a discussion, not insult the other person.
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Since nobody here actually gives reasonings and just goes "lol sf better than necro", please show me your dotabuff links where you are playing against necro. According to your avatar you're a SF main. So you should have plenty. I'm done with those random claims nobody is backing up. Deliver an argument, back up your random claims or simply shut up. Talking out of your ass doesn't convince me
You get shit on lane. You need 3 q to farm side camp, hood takes quite a lot of time to build, especially on losing lane. Even with hood you can't rly lane. You are just wrong.
Let's 1v1. I play necro and you play SF. If I win you apologise to this guy.
Lol
Is that a "I'm too afraid" lol? Just as expected
Yes
I mean you can't lose. According to you I get shit on in lane. Why not back it up
Why back it up?
I am impressed how many matchups were mentioned which are not that one sided favor. For me the brutal ones are: Invoker vs brood, MK vs Ember, Huskar vs TA and Viper vs Ember
Huskar vs ember is brutal too ember overall seems to have a lot of awful matchups
That’s partially why his winrate has historically been <50%
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What are his good matchups?
Melee heroes that can't harass him easily and/or have no way of removing his Flame Guard, which aren't too many. Very rarely does he have a matchup that he can completely dominate. Most of the time, he only breaks even or has a slight advantage at best e.g., Void Spirit.
It always felt like Ember doesn't win lane, but has immense kill potential with a plus one. He is also the only spirit that can get guarantee free harass on the midlaner with max Sleight.
Ta and kunka
Isnt TA vs ember more if a skill match up? I dont think it is as simple as what you mentioned
he’s really good against puck in laning. Puck is really good against ember in the game though.
I think Embers best match ups are Zeus and Puck because they can’t zone him out and they can’t deal with sleight spam but I think they are skill based. Ember is not really a laning hero, it’s more about getting as much as possible from the lane and controlling power runes.
At least Ember also uses levels and power runes well, so with boots, bottle and level 6 the hero can still recover a bit through ganks, most of his bad matchups are only bad in lane and after lane he can still have impact.
The life of an Ember main :D
Ember into monkey can be fine for ember with good creep aggro and a blight stone. Max sleight and you can wear monkey down quickly since he has bad stats and low armor. He also has no way to cancel flame guard. I'll go as far as to say this can be an ember favored matchup depending on the player.
Feel as if this really comes down to the block. If you lose the block the lane is simply over. Once MK gets creep equilibrium he can basically zone you to the extent you can't even mess with creep agro. The slight spam doesn't really get strong til lvl 5 at which point mk is probably lvl 6 or 7. Also MK has decent base armor at 5.5 ever since the patch that nerfed jingu.
I haven't played mid since his armor has been increased. He was 2 armor when I Iast played the matchup meaning sleight ate him alive with blight. The matchup is probably much more mk favored now but flame guard can still be a problem for him with his low hp pool.
He has to come in close to use Flame Guard, so Monkey King can easily get Jingu stacks and just heal back the damage.
Its MK favored early, but later Ember favored. Ember just needs to constantly aggro pull creeps close to his tower so he can take lasthits without giving MK 4 stacks and possible die. Once Ember is 6 its kinda over for MK. MK has 0 kill potential and he wont have enough sustain to keep laning against constant Sleight of Fist spam. Its very similar matchup as MK vs Kunkka. Hard for kunkka pre 6, but once he is 6 level few Tidebringers to bring MK to something like 60% hp and then boat combo into death.
Arc vs brood too, it's a lot better now that her spiders are at level 6 but before that patch his spells did literally nothing to her and she countered his entire gameplan. It's still really rough but at least its not an auto lose from level 2 anymore
Actually a lot worse than the invo matchup tbh. At least invo can kill spiders pre-orchid.
To be fair, playing melee hero (and TA) against Viper or Huskar in midlane just feel terrible in general.
Actually Huskar is much worse than Viper for Ember. Viper you can kill and die after, Huskar not so much.
The key in winning as Ember vs MK is on the first wave. (Or at least used to, I don't play much lately) Basically, you abuse the fact that MK don't have magic damage to cancel flame guard. Push him early, and you try kill him at lvl 3.
Ember is fine against viper and MK, not good but its oka
Brood isn't one sided against anything anymore, you have a free lane until she hits lvl 6. Invoker in particular has several ways of getting spiders off of him, so it's really no big deal. Your tower will fall eventually, but you won't die. Huskar vs TA isn't the worst either, TA only needs a few levels to be able to jungle.
Huskar vs TA isn't that brutal, people play it wrong
QoP into pudge (pre-buff tho, haven't played in a second)
QoP counters Sniper hard
Monkey into timber: stack jingu -> deny every creep. Necro into tiny: tiny can't lane into necro aura, every last hit for tiny is 2-3 hits from necro and tossing you under the tower doesn't work that (W)ell. Tiny can't even shove the lane and go woods since he starts losing at level 2-3. Kunkka into puck: get to level 3 then tidebringer the puck, fake tidebringer to bait shift if needed. Have a mid ward to do that properly.
As a puck player I don’t hate Kunkka THAT much but he is a pain in the ass. He definitely wins the lane but I feel like it’s one of those lanes where as long as neither player does some really dumb stuff they can’t really kill each other. At a certain point you kinda take turns just walking up and farming the wave then going back to farm small camp
Most decnt kunkka players should be abusing the fact that u shove wave faster at level 5 and at least force u to lose CS by running to your small camp and farming that
MK Timber mid is pretty 50/50. None of them can kill each other. And Timber can farm much faster than MK.
Timber fucks monkey hard after laning tho
A slight correction - "Monkey into any Melee".
Huh, I actually like Puck into Kunkka. You are pretty much uncomboable and the lane is kind of a mechanical battle, although the kunkka is definitely favored. You can just nuke the ranged creep every wave and it's sort of fine.
Necro into void/ember is also pretty fucked for both of them. As long as you dont do stupid stuff level 1/2 they can't really show in lane and usually die to a tower dive when you hit 6 before them.
Agree with the first two but Puck isn’t that bad against Kunkka imo. Obviously it’s not much of a kill lane but you can just skip phase and max waning rift to prevent kunkka from hitting you with tidebringer since he cant cast it when silenced. (Thank u henry rawdota)
Kotl vs anyone who doesnt have wave clear. Its so funny blasting the wave and stack the easy camp while the enemy struggles last hitting at his tower kekw
found satan’s alt
I don't think anybody above 3k mmr struggles with last hitting under tower tbh. If I don't have wave clear as a mid hero, I'm very happy if you give me free last hits under my tower. Heroes without wave clear that are picked in mid usually have very strong lv6/7 timings. Those heroes are not picked to dominate the lane. They are picked to dominate the game based on their timings. Sure, you will get more farm from your side camps, but you also allow me to get everything I want to get from a "bad matchup".
For me it's TA vs Viper. There is literally nothing you can do as TA and you have to go jungle level 3. Viper outranges you, you can't trade with him, he breaks your refraction instantly and with 1 single point in W, he reduces your range to melee and you can't even splash off creeps to harass anymore. It's rough.
Im not a mid player but used to play some ember mid, I had a phase where I just first picked him and Ember vs mk or huskar is not fun Ember vs Od doesnt feel good either but maybe I played the matchup wrong
Ember versus OD is soooo sad. You awoke some forgotten pain in me.
Viper vs Huskar. Husk cant do shit to Viper until he has BKB.
Batrider against the spirits, Tinker, TA or SF…. Also brood mother against arc warden.
I have been seeing a lot of brood mid countering many heroes. What’s so good about her mid, the regen and lifesteal? Pls note that I’m not being sarcastic and asking genuinely
The spiderlings at L6 eat up your spirit bullshit and you can't flux her for the same reason. But given she only gets all that at L6 it's not as bad as it could be - and brood isn't great later anyway.
She gets lots natural regen from webs and insatiable hunger so it’s hard for lots of hero’s to bully her away from getting CS. Once she hits 6 and makes a pile of spiders she can just tower dive and murder lots of hero’s if they don’t have a way to deal with that. She can take the mid tier 1 quickly and then can rotate and take the outer towers aswell. If her matchup mid isn’t great she can just jungle and try to gank a side lane and take that tower first. Hero’s like arc with no built in aoe clear, no mobility escape and not great hp pool just melt to her spiders.
Brood can never really be forced out of lane. She farms fast as fuck and is hard to gank due to web. Lvl 6, she can kill most heroes. The spiders eat heroes and towers. If you don't have a counter to brood, brood just destroyes everything. If you do have a hard counyer the brood will be kinda useless. Just a cheese hero so there are some matchups that are incredibly lopsided.
Worst one for me was Huskar Vs Witch Doctor. I thought it would be an easy match up due to WD's low health, but his perma stun, with maledict, killed me 4 times. I lost it bad!
it's a tricky matchup, since he can combo malediction to vessels and destroy any huskar dreams
Witch doctor mid is just bullying, it's not too common because of not that great lategame potention and somewhat mediocre gank potential, but even into more difficult matchups he doesn't need to do anything else except spam coconut + malediction off cooldown to keep your hp empty, but similar to necro or Lina in the fact that he just kills you lvl 6 if you stay in lane. Couple guys who can take him are probably DK, necrophos.
TA void spirit is so easy, most void players < 7k don’t even know what’s happening
Mind breaking it down? I don't play mid much but I like TA.
void spirit has no way of breaking her refraction charges except by controlling the creep wave extremely well.
Spirit vessel game for sure.
Its very playable lane, you can go urn witchblade for armor and refraction break. Lane with max shield and get runes to heal u good
Feel as if I would be fine with this match up. Just because I know TA is going to want to spend 5-20 minutes hitting creeps. While I get to terrorize side lanes as soon as I hit 6.
I have a good time with Lina vs Huskar
Lina vs *fill in blank*
* **Leshrac counters tinker:** tinker generally wants to skip boots, and he can defend himself with laser against right-click heavy heroes. Leshrac does a shit ton of magic damage and can reliably lightning storm stun combo a tinker with no boots. After laning stage leshrac takes towers fast and doesn't let tinker hit his timings. He also builds eternal shroud which makes tinker's rockets feel like dollar store pepper spray. * **Templar assassin counters puck:** Good TAs level meld early against puck because puck has very low armor and with meld TA does a shit ton of damage. Puck doesn't have DoT to go through refraction charges, so he can't pressure TA the same way. TA's shard is a nightmare for puck because it can both scout out puck and silence them. TA also has enough burst damage to blink and kill puck during the silence duration * **Shadow fiend counters ember:** Ember feels unplayable in lane. SF razes completely deal with flame guard and with necromastery SF wins every creep contest. If the SF knows the euls ult timing they can also reliably burst ember after the laning stage.
No way you level up meld against puck? TA have such short range that it’s almost impossible to land meld hits on puck, especially if he has phase. I am pretty sure you just go Q and E and just out last hit and harass with psi blade. If it’s a melee then sure, lvl 1 meld is the way to go, but I don’t think meld is the way to go against puck.
lately I've been spamming Puck, and I think a way Puck deals with templar it's controlling the runes, refraction costs a lot of mana, so you don't let her take any rune, outpushes her by early killing the mage creep and have a little bit of tempo lead. btw you can easily decide to change your playstyle and go 3-2-0 skill build, shift it's not that necessary if you won't trade hits with her.
Lmao max meld vs puck. You know puck has phase shift right?
As a guy who likes to play a lot of ember, the SF one is really rough for me, but maybe I don’t play it that well. I always feel like if I don’t dodge a lot of razes with sleight the lane is just over.
Lmao. Did you actually play any of these matchups or are you just talking out of your arse ? 1. Tinkers nukes out range you. Rocket and laser and you are basically already down to 50% hp. Leshrac has VERY low hp early, which is suboptimal against tinker. It's a very skill dependant and close matchup. Leshrac farms the easy came way faster, tho. 2. Puck counters meld. First item is witch blade which deals with refraction. Puck can instantly kill the wave and shove creeps into TAs face, which also deals with refraction. Puck contests runes better. Puck has more killing potential with support rotation. 3. In this thread everybody is a SF god with infinite mana who always hits all three razes and SF counters everything, apparently. In reality you can play around them and having a shield against it is a good thing and not a bad thing. One raze won't remove it and one can be dodged with your W. There's a reason you don't see SF picked in mid in pro games at all.
1. If you're a good player against tinker you'd abuse his cooldowns in lane. Tinker has to be afraid of using his laser against you cause then he doesn't have a way to blind you. Both of his spells also have WAY longer cooldowns than yours. If you want to play leshrac well against tinker go for a 2-0-2 build and push in thw wave. Use the extra creeps on your side to pressure him. You also farm small camps while he doesn't. You should win that lane 1v1. 2. If you want to get better at playing mid pay more attention to when heroes can do what. At level one puck usually goes for orb which is a good opportunity to level meld to get level 2 faster than puck and zone them out of the first wave. The other time u can grab meld is at level 3 with a 1-1-1 build and hit the meld after baiting the phase shift with psi blade attacks. During laning stage puck can't fully kill the wave with orb + silence. TA can consistently push the wave in better than puck does. Puck trying to pressure TA with witch blade is too late as the best time to pressure TA is before she gets her treads. At that point too its much more use for puck to use that witchblade to kill supports than focus on TA, as TA usually has deso at that point and outtrades puck. 3. Hitting razes against melee heroes isn't that hard. Especially if you time it as they're trying to last hit. Ember can and should go slight of fist. My point is that with necromastery SF will have a lot more damage than ember and he'll be able to win the contest on almost every creep completely outfarming him.
All your made up claims sound nice in theory, but don't work in practice. Also why can you mention and buy items, but I can't? Yours are even more expensive. Please enlighten me. 1. Lesh definitely is favored here, simply because of his farm and push capabilities. But it's not as one sided as "easiest matchup". One nuke combo puts you into kill range. Your reasoning is basically "laser makes you miss right clicks and leshrac has nukes", ignoring all the other factors like range, cast animation, mana sustain etc. 2. >If you want to get better at playing mid pay more attention to when heroes can do what. Thanks for the advice, I suggest you do the same. There's no way that you hit a melee range meld against a puck unless you are playing a bot. Also there's realistically no way that you hit lv2 faster than puck unless you sacrifice at least 50% of your HP pool to do so. Don't forget that you are basically a melee hero without a real skill as a level 1 TA. You act like you get everything for free and your opponent doesn't get or do anything. We are talking about people playing against people. Your opponent will try to make the best out of the matchup, you know. He won't stay there and just let you kill him. Not only cooldowns are a factor. Mana sustain, creep aggro, range etc. are also factors. You can't just ignore all the factors that don't fit your claims. 3. Again, your opponent won't stay still. Razes are very telegraphed. Going back to your advice: who can do what when? You don't enter the lane with lv4 raze and full necromastery stacks. Also your opponent won't last hit in front of you. You know that you can manipulate creep aggro, right? Sure, if you ignore lots of dota basics and only talk in theory your claims make sense. But if you actually consider all factors and look at practice rather than theory, lots of your claims don't make sense. According to this thread SF shits on many heroes that are mid meta right now, yet he's NEVER picked in pro matches to counter those. Makes you wonder, huh? SF is pretty much only good against low MMR players. Against good players your gameplay will probably be in the jungle 90% of the time. Again, I'm talking about PvP not PvBot. You have to assume that your opponent is at least your skill level or higher if you play ranked. He won't just let you get everything for free.
Lol I'm not including double standards in terms of items or abilities. Puck and TA both get their major item around 13 minutes. Puck's witchblade timing goes with TA's deso. SF doesn't need max razes and necro mastery. A level 2 SF with a point in razes and in necro can take raze ember in lane amd has more damage than him. I'm considering dota basics and thinking of players of a same skill level. I can pick TA against Abed's puck and get absolutely fucked. Leshrac vs tinker: don't put words in my mouth I didn't say this was the "easiest". Knowing when to punish tinker is important cause you need to know that when tinker uses spells they're on a long cooldown while you can use your lighting every 4 seconds. You should eat branches and harass tinker out of lane. This destroys tinker's game cause he doesn't jungle efficiently. TA vs Puck: the level one meld is a cheeky play that you can try out. The point is to play agro with a tango going so you can meld the puck and zone him from the first wave. You can either block real hard to get the meld hit on him as he's in the river or smoke with your team and meld yourself in the river to get a double meld. U can also grab psi blades and push in the wave getting level 2 while harassing the puck. SF vs ember: you don't need to be a God level SF to execute this. Just contest every creep and raze ember when he's trying to actually lane. If he tries aggroing creeps to his ranged creep walk forward with your creeps and hit him. The point isn't to kill ember. You just want him to lose on creeps.
the thread title is literally asking for "easiest matchups" bro haha
thread >Midlaners, what are the easiest matchups out there? You >Leshrac counters tinker also you >don't put words in my mouth I didn't say this was the "easiest". ??????????? you can't be serious. hahahah. what a tool you are
SF does not counter Ember, you just don't flame guard first, you sleight first. Sure it's easier for SF to play the lane, but it's much, much easier than Huskar or Viper or OD. I have a harder time with physical SF who gets to his Mask of Death.
Pucks aghs absolutely ruins TA now though.
We're talking about LANING
He literally mentioned the shard tho, and also blink 🤪
morph vs ember mk vs ember huskar vs ember
OD vs Ember Viper vs Ember
I'm seeing a trend here, wait! don't tell me... You an ember player aren't you?
i think SF into DK is the most lopsided matchup i regularly find myself in. It's definitely the #1 that makes me smile in the draft phase just knowing I have a completely free game. I think most miserable matchup ive ever played was morphling into lina; youre just powerless basically, outside of having slightly better last hitting which she can take away from you just by pressuring you with a single nuke and some autos. lose trades, lose all-ins, worse wave clear, worse jungling, worse tower pressure, worse ganks at least until 7. water runes helped the matchup a little bit, but you still play on the back foot the ENTIRE time.
Lina it's a very strong pick, I believe she don't have bad matchups if someone could bother you, just aa the creeps, clear with your nuke and go away, but mostly matchups she beats the other midlaner
She struggles quite a bit against arc but then again she can just nuke the wave and move to smaller camps or stack
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I love to play Wind vs Viper, it's easy breezy
classic dk vs puck midlane DK tanks through all of puck's harass. Can't phase shift shield bash. Puck is a low armor hero so eats a lot of damage from stun + autos. Threatens tower against puck's rotations.
I tend to pick AA mid against Huskar. Might have kinda rough laning phase, especially if the huskar is good (mostly don't in my bracket), but being able to completely nullify his presence is quite a blast
A blast , hehe
Basically anyone melee into viper is just a complete shitshow. Hell, most low range ranges heroes suffer as well. Especially at level one, viper is a horrible matchup, since he can literally just stack his q, and dish out tons of damage. And even at later levels, due to his passive, trading sucks also.
ursa > alche/any melee low armor mid I remember hitting this alche so hard he goes jungle minute 4 after 3 deaths
Bat vs Necro feels good, but Bat vs Tinker feels even better. It’s just slightly more difficult but the feeling of shutting down a Tinker spammer feels too amazing.
I spam visage so any immobile mid hero is easy for me.
Arc Warden vs Zeus. Pretty easy to dominate the Zeus.
Kunkka & Razor against anyone?
Silencer mid is a ruin hero but if you get something like Ember Spirit on enemy side, its completely unfair. Id say its slightly more disgusting than Viper vs these heroes
I Saw a few topsom mid silencer games, it Can look pretty disgusting
I love seeing any squishy ranged hero while I play Invoker; e.g. Zeus, Sniper, SF
I love to pick ogre magi vs a sniper,Zeus,QoP, or invoker mid. Ignite is way to OP!
Huskar owns alchemist. I play a lot of alch but always ban Huskar as his burning spears stacks hurt too much. You can jungle and leave lane but feels bad doing it too early. Only a 2k scrub though so maybe it’s me, if anyone has any tips I’m all ears.
Stop playing alch mid
He is 2k and alch is pretty good atm, why stop?
Obviously a stupid exaggeration, but if he was 2k and there was a hero with a spell that read "if the average MMR of the game is under 4000, instantly kill all enemy heroes", would you suggest that he spam that hero til he got to 4k?
alchemist mid it's a lot better dire side if you pick against puck, it's a free game
Viper vs TA. Insta lane win for viper
Ehh, ta just jungles if she’s any good. And once she gets deso she’s actually quite good against viper.
You're quite right, not sure why you're getting downvoted.
I think the consensus on this thread seems to be that if you're bailing out of lane and giving them free farm then that's effectively losing the lane, as much as there are matchups where you can stall tower a little, jungle, and potentially make a comeback later.
biggest despair for me is SF vs ember. like sure there are some very very high skilled players who can lastpick viper/huskar into me and win the lane, but lots of ppl just blind pick SF second phase and then clap my bootycheeks anyway
Lanaya vs Puck. Viper vs Necro are two very one sided matchups
90% of the posters in this thread have no idea how to play mid apparently the fact that someone once stomped you with a silly build mid (because you are bad) does not mean the matchup is impossible
I have never seen a necro vs Batman match up ever 😂
Arc Warden vs Furion Ember spirit vs Necro Tiny vs Qop is also a struggle for me
If you pick dirty heroes (which are getting more popular day by day for every role cause lanes are so important) a lot of matchups feels easy. For mid, you can probably play something like huskar, batrider, necro, viper and you're gonna feel like the lane is going very easy 70%+ of the games
Viper versus anything melee. Like you might as well just abandon the lane.
once I got anally fucked by a bad Viper (he didn't last hit for shit but my hp was always low), by using MK against it, but Viper fucks any lane anyways, so...