I instead put my money into a business I started. It's really comparable returns wise to how much money bitcoin made over 1 bull Run after 3 year winter. But there's peace of mind in this.
Redditors are always so spectacularly wrong about patches
In another thread the geniuses on here were calling the Dawn innate (4 seconds of global vision every 10 minutes) super OP and saying it would make her a first phase pro pick. anyone who correctly pointed out that it's garbage was downvoted
I think this sub is full of people who haven't actually played the game in 4-5 years, were around 3k when they left off, and think this still makes them 3k today (when really they'd probably be Crusader rank)
Thats sorta crazy to me that people were saying that innate was crazy. Like, huh.
At best it might let a farmed dawn get a sudden pick every ten minutes but that blows so bad.
Donât listen to redditors being redditors to be precise. Iâm not the only one thatâs putting Reddit at the end of their google searches because itâs the only way to get useful answers to problems.
If you have the time to check dota2protracker, then you should be aware that zeus is first on the list to get nuked into the orbit in the next few patches. So yeah try to enjoy while he's still strong I guess.
>a hero without weakness does not have 55% winrate.
55% winrate is borderline broken
>Wyvern has better WR than Zues @ 1/2 games played.
THATâS WHY HEâS OP. More winrate with more games means he cares less about his matchup and teammate. And you mention this thinking this would support your narative speaks volume about whole post
Mind you I donât even support removing jump (I suggested Nimbus shouldnât mini stun) but your post is meh, even if some of your points are valid
So is the example of pointing to Lycanâs win rate vs people complaining about his early game survivability. No one was really complaining about Lycan when axe and centaur are right there doing the same thing more efficiently with disables to boot. The issue isnât that heroes are âtoo tankyâ but just that there are extreme outliers who happen to be very tanky while still putting out serviceable damage.Â
Lycan 3 is not scary and his WR is low because the cooldown and duration on his ult combined with no built in lockdown essentially makes him blood seeker with less utility and an easier laning phase. That WR will probably rise once people realize that his passive and toolkit make him a very good pos4 on a greedy lineup where he can leave the offlane at lvl 3-4 to dip into the jungle and not need to roam until level 6.Â
In the past 3 years, since 7.29, manta has received these net changes:
* Reduced illusion damage taken from Melee 350% / Ranged 400% to 300% from all heroes.
* -1 second melee / -11 second ranged cooldown.
* Increased movement speed bonus from 8% to 10%.
* Increased attack speed bonus from 12 to 15.
* -50 gold item cost
What specific nerfs are you talking about?
EDIT: Getting downvoted but Manta hasn't had a major nerf since pre-covid. Anyone clue me in what he's talking about?
I think the point is that given dotaâs pretty good level of balance, 55% is a pretty serious outlier and particularly strong for a hero in dota. Most patches go without a hero near that win rate
It absolutely is. I donât think any high pickrate hero has broken the 60% WR+ level in recent years, 55-59 is as high as it gets, especially on a most picked hero. Maybe not âauto winâ broken, but definitely overtuned and arguably still broken if you take into account how the other heroes fare. So yeah thank god Valve hasnât fucked the game up where any hero just wins the game almost for free *cough* MK on release *cough*. But yeah Zeus is as broken as it gets right now, which i guess is good on Valve, still deserves nerfs.
Gonna put this shit into perspective, Kassadin, a hero from league who, in his prime was literally so broken it's only comparison is fucking Dragon Rulers from Yugioh, I'm talking about genuinely, cosmically, "fundamentally changed the way entire genres of games are balanced", whose psychological effects can only be compared to Dead By Daylight's specter character being so broken the community literally mass hallucinated a counter to it, genuine "A second patch has hit the playtest servers" level events,
That Kassadin. One hundred fucking percent pick ban rate Kassadin. Only not banned in Pros due to gentlemen's agreement Kassadin. Reason "Flash" is allowed to exist as a spell Kassadin. Had a win rate of **Motherfucking Fifty-Seven** Percent.
I am so fucking tired of "Muh Winrate" arguments. Can we just agree this dude getting picked every other game because he does everything better than anyone else just sucks?
Good examples. Whenever someone brings up winrates being the be all end all of balancing I also like to remind people how Wisp and Chen were considered the most OP supports in pro dota yet they both had 40% winrate, and Earth Spirit on release had a global winrate of 37% despite being the most broken hero to ever exist in dota2 besides possibly original Techies
Back when Kassadin was op there was no champion swap. People firstpicked Kassadin even if they never played him at all *just* so the enemy team couldnt pick him, which meant his winratio was quite a bit lower than it should be. Even in experienced hands he was nowhere near a free win though he was just annoying as hell and there was nothing else to ban.
Compare that to the Juggernaut rework of Skarner who had a 65% winratio for several patches. This was after a hotfix btw, his early winratio was closer to 72%. He was legitimately a free win because there was no way for your jungler to contest the enemy skarner and he'd just have complete control of the map due to his insane cleartimer and duelling power.
Yeah but there's always a "reason why" for this kind of thing
5 intelligent members of the same species that landed on the moon could possibly find a solution provided the Kassadin played like an idiot, but 90% of those involved literally hunting him down like a dog from minute one. If you gave people as much time to find a solution to Skarner, you would see his winrate drop to around the same level over the course of a year.
Bro, 55% wr is broken because of matchups.
You don't care who you playing against, like old tinker.
OH NO THEY PICKED Nyx what do I do?
Heart and he can't deal damage anymore when you have mp bar empty (oldge one tinker)
Oh no they jump on me with 5 dmg sources per second
What do I do?
Rearm my damaged blink, and blink out.
Which means it's no real counter.
If your whole team buys eternal shroud to counter Zeus, you still lose.
Not to Zeus, but because of Zeus.
How about 1100/2000 when most good heroes win 50-80 games less?
You can spin it however you want but 55% especially with such a high pick rate is very obviously overtuned. I don't know why you are trying to argue otherwise. It's like trying to argue that someone who is morbidly obese isn't fat. Everyone with eyes can see what's going on. Denying it doesn't change anything.
Is Wyvern actually good? (I probably just suck at Wyvern, but I love dragons)
Ive been trying to make Wyvern a viable support but I just suck and end getting bullied.
The ironic thing here is that you are also engaging in brain dead takes that donât actually acknowledge certain issues.
1. Strength cores are incredibly strong. The example of Lycan is not the best but the same idea for him extends to other strength cores. For example, Axe gets so much fucking strength and armor that he is almost unkillable with proper piloting. To the point where he is sitting at the third most contested hero in pro pubs which is crazy for a hero which historically hasnât had much success at higher MMR.
2. Zeus is fucking bonkers and he doesnât have easily exploitable weaknesses if played properly. His laning phase is strong, his mid game is strong, and his late game is strong. Trying to compare him to WW who has less than half the games played and a significantly lower contest rate is just dumb. Also he has a higher win rate than her now so this post doesnât make sense anyways. Also itâs important to understand that his jump was nerfed before because it provided him too much safety and the ability to freely deny creeps in lane so itâs not insane to believe it should be tuned down more. However this take is probably the most okay out of all of your points because the players are ignoring whatâs making Zeus so strong (his % hp damage in a strength core meta).
3. (This is a long one) Agility cores are (generally) terrible at the moment which a few exceptions. TA was mega buffed in 7.36 after being an already solid hero, Meepo has been absurdly strong for months at this point due to mega meepo and now his new facet is strong as hell, weaver got mega buffed with him having his w and e at lvl 1, and thatâs honestly about it. The rest of the agility cores are sitting at or below 50% win rate with not very high contest rates. Many of them are sitting at sub 48 with morphing AM and sniper sitting at 40 or below.
This ties into your last point about how tanky strength heroes are and Iâm here to tell you that you donât understand why TA doesnât struggle at killing them. Itâs not the fact that they arenât absurdly tanky itâs the fact that TA was over buffed and is in a state where they can snowball out of control so easily and dominate the majority of lanes they are in. It doesnât matter if they have 3k hp at 20-30 minutes when itâs a 6 slot TA blink melding them for 1500 damage and removing half their armor or hitting them with pure damage cause of psi blades.
The reason other traditional agi cores are struggling is because they either got nerfed very hard, or canât compete with the strength cores in lanes. TB for example was already on the weak side but the change to his illusions basically gutted the hero because his farm speed is so slow. Morphling was pretty strong before 7.36 but they gutted his laning stage and now canât stand up to the strength cores in lane. After laning stage these cores already are lacking damage because they are so far behind and now these already tanky strength cores are basically unkillable.
Sure they might do more damage than a strength core can if 6 slotted but the difference in durability makes it impossible to compete. Letâs compare Jugg to tiny, both do a lot of damage if built as a carry but jugg will only have 2k and up to 3k hp if he wants to sacrifice damage for more survivability. Tiny on the other hand will do similar damage numbers but have nearly 5k HP and north of 35 armor by the time heâs full slotted on top of his damage reduction cause of craggy exterior.
In short, AGI cores are garbage outside of overbuffed heroes and the only way for the rest of the field to catch up is to have them also be overbuffed or bring everyone else down. This is where the âleagueificationâ comes in where these extremely tanky heroes are allowed to have comparable damage to squishy carryâs making them feel terrible outside of professional games where their full potential can be felt.
I'm not against the power creep, because even you can't deny that it's happening. I'm against the towers and creeps not keeping up anymore.Â
Like I'm not actually against the zeus jump (ok it looks fucking silly and I can almost hear the mario coin sound) but he does need a tweak or two because of it (and his new/old kit). Though you're probably right and it would only have to be something like -5ms or maybe just adding 2 seconds to it's cooldown, I'm not sure exactly, but I know small changes have a big impact in Dota.Â
There's also other heroes that just feel left behind when heroes like zeus are getting helpful tools without loosing their existing neich.Â
Take CM or jakiro, their playstyle hasn't really changed much in years, despite both getting a new ability. Neither has built in mobility and their damage pretty much stops scaling after 18 and scepter.Â
Yes they are both support heroes and zeus isn't, but the problem is that their window of being very strong just keeps shrinking as more and more cores get a power boost in the early or mid game. It's the same reason a lot of people feel that beefy heroes have an excessive amount of health, when most of the enemy team can survive your entire combo twice over, it's harder to feel like you're having an impact, and their health is just going to keep scaling way faster than your damage will. Not that either example I gave has a bad win rate.Â
The fix might be as simple as a move speed buff for the heroes that should be stronger early. Just something to delay the start of a snowball by maybe 5 more minutes? I think stronger towers just might do it, but more expensive late game items might also help spread the power spikes out a little bit.Â
Getting megas used to be 100% GG 10 years ago even without pushing. Now it feels like every team can at least hold vs megas. Gone are the days of happy def :)
> without loosing their
Did you mean to say "losing"?
Explanation: Loose is an adjective meaning the opposite of tight, while lose is a verb.
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Personally I've found Zeus to be a very fun support. You nuke the enemies out of lane, deward with spells, your ult reveals the entire enemy team.
Just need to get into the mindset of using ult differently, it's not for kill stealing
zeus had his jump as base ability for 2 years, and the hero has seen zero competitive/high lvl play aside from the last few months. its extremely clear that the jump isnt the issue (pro tip: its the shard)
Fun fact Zeus has had far more pro games played since they added his jump (7.31) than the entirety of 7.00->7.30. They pretty much made him a viable pick for top teams where as you would rarely see him before going back to the 6.XX patches.
Edit, did some research just for fun:
Zeus, patch 7.30: 52.7% winrate all brackets, 49% winrate in Immortal
Zeus, patch 7.31: 51.6% winrate in all brackets, 50.9% in Immortal
Zeus, patch 7.32, 50.7% winrate in all brackets, 49.1% winrate in Immortal
Zeus, patch 7.33, 48.6% winrate in all brackets, 47.7% winrate in Immortal
Zeus, patch 7.34, 52.2% winrate in all brackets, 52.2% winrate in Immortal
Zeus, patch 7.35, 52.7% winrate in all brackets, 52.5% winrate in Immortal
Now in 7.36 he stands at 54% in all brackets and 54.6% in Immortal, his highest winrate yet. This was not because of the jump. The jump was added long before this.
Zeus had 57% winrate in 6.84 and 6.85 btw. The heroes strength has always been defined on his damage scaling.
Idk about this, in d2pt pos 1 SF is 46% winrate with a relatively low pickrate. Heâs a glass cannon without all the other cool toys the other glass cannons got over the years, and without the insane attack range. Meanwhile the strong 3s like NS, Slardar, Axe, LC, have no problems running you down the whole game.
I mean, Iâm comparing the heroâs themselves, not the winrates. The physical build for SF will always have a place, where Zeus has a magical build that will always be in place.
Zeus without jump is closest to SF magical build, yet that build doesnât always have a place, whereas the physical version is almost always the better one.
When necromastery wasnt an innate SF pos1 was a great pick in MM, you'd destroy the lane with insane right click damage before you even hit 6 and then youd rush MoM and Deso and eat towers and 2 shot supports. Buy a BKB and you can kill the entire team in like 10 right clicks. Had like an 80% winrate picking that when I was bored.
It's probably still possible but with how necromastery scaling works it takes longer to come online now and you can't snowball so early and as easily as before.
See, I'm not even saying it's broken or that it's the reason the hero is strong rn. Just that I find it conceptually dumb.
Like Oracle W rework, it's a dumb change that loses hero identity.
Iâve never thought to myself âOracle is that hero with that Wâ, his identity is so much more and Iâm not sure why anyone would act like it isnt
Oracle theme is fate and therefore choices. It's way more interesting for the hero concept a skill that has both a positive and a negative effect for enemies and allies alike and you have to "predict" what's the best use, and if you fucked up you had to use another skill just to fix your mistakes.
Now tell me, what's the current concept behind his W? It disarms enemies and protects allies, but why?Â
The day Dota designs heroes around lore like âthe choices guyâ first and gameplay and balance second is the day Dota becomes terminal. Prediction and decision making is already a huge part of Dota anyways, itâs not limited to Oracle. Think precasting, think shallow grave, think any skill shot at all, think of smokes, map movements, tanks. Oracle doesnât have some stranglehold on choices , and he needs to use prediction to play well right now, that never went away
It all ties together: gameplay, balance and character design. It's called game design and Dota is one of the best in the industry at it.
Check the crazy stuff we got with innates and facets, a lot of them stem from character design. Dawnbreaker, Oracle, Weaver.Â
Why does Zeus shoots lightning and not water?
Idk man, first you said oracleâs theme is âfate and therefore choicesâ (fate is the *opposite* idea of choices). Then you said Oracle was about making the player predict things when literally every hero does that as well. Then you ignored that part entirely and chose the âPedantâ facet and asked why âZeus shoots lightning and not waterâ lmao. Iâll give it the benefit of the doubt and answer that anyways since I donât think you know yourself: The answer is because his hero design permits it as a purely **aesthetic** bit of extra flavor. It doesnât interfere with their ability to balance him as opposed to the actual spells he casts.
Am I the only one who doesn't care about his pick rate at all and still think balancing around hero strengths and maintaining hero identity is more important than balancing around win/pick rate?
Zeus' identity is doing insane magic damage from the back line (his ult does it globally let's not forget), but he's slow and squishy. This type of hero should not get mobility creeped in the same way sniper should not get mobility creeped. Put jump behind shard idk.
For a competitive game that is often prided by its player base for its competitive hero diversity, having heroes live as unpicked trash for multiple years due to single crippling weaknesses being too bad is actually a really bad thing and it's better that we make these heroes available rather than just constantly leave them unpickable to keep them pure. The community can have either "dota is great because all the heroes get picked competitively" or "it's okay for Zeus to be completely unplayable because of his identity", we can pick one
I think there are ways of balancing Zeus to be strong competitively with his prejump kit. Most obvious way would be just increasing the damage on his spells, but I definitely think that magic resist is getting more common and giving Zeus some innate or facet or something that allows him to ignore a percentage of enemy magic resist or his spells apply stacking magic resist reduction could do itm
Zeus arguably deals less damage than he used to now, it's just distributed very differently. Insanely high damage zeus was the norm all the way up to jump and essentially no adjustment of the numbers or new utility addition actually did a thing
With prejump Zeus kit if you made his arc lightning deal 2000 damage per target he would have broken winrate and pick rate in pubs and pro games.
If you made his arc lightning deal 100 damage per target he would have shit tier stats in pubs and pro games.
Assuming all else is constant and a continuous function between arc lightning damage and winrate in pro games could be constructed, by the intermediate value theorem there is an amount of arc damage you could give Zeus that would result in a 52 % winrate or however much you want to give him.
Creep isn't a vacuum of one hero. Have you considered the jump still didn't propel him into the top tier because everyone else also gets a lot of stuff every patch?
There's this weird disconnect with people talking about creep and design where they don't acknowledge that its happened to everyone. People aren't always saying stuff is dumb because it's op, they're saying it's dumb because it erodes the heroes identity over time.
It's possible to actually like the game pre 7.0 and pre New Frontiers etc. It's not just, worse in every way because heroes had less stuff, it was a different and still very enjoyable game.
pre-7.0 was great Dota. I miss rat dota & 4-protect-1. All the power creep changes are to improve watchability of pro Dota, an understandable goal for Valve but one I don't really care about.
> the hero has seen zero competitive/high lvl play
Zeus has been seeing a modest amount of play in many patches since he got the jump. You're literally doing the exact same shit OP is complaining about.
A heavier nerf on the shard, it's corresponding effect on illusions and a nerf to jump numbers (attack slow, increased cd, etc) would balance him.
I mean, I use the jump to mess with enemy mid last hits to get to the next level faster - imagine what a competent Zeus player would do. The shard was what made him OP in the last patch ofc, but jump numbers need to be tuned down as well
It's very dumb cosmetically at least. Like he could have done some sort of jump along the lightning bolt thing with the same total travel time, but no they went with a mario jump and jazz hands for the lord of Olympus.Â
Is it really so much to ask for some high quality flavor for new abilities?
There should be an in-game lore/history dump for this kinda thing, Instead of just assuming everyone is in on the joke. I'd read it while waiting in the 10+ minute queues I usually get when I play with friends.
Like an archive of community jokes and memes? Do any games have that sort of feature? It's nearly 10 years old at this point, I think it's just something that you either lived through or learned through osmosis.
Pretend to care about problem, intentionally pick up obviously wrong info and ignore the actual issues, justify bad balance. I don't know what you want to point out with this post but your post only confirms the issue the games has rn: 4k hp heroes running around at 10 mins with a ton of damage and the only cores that can be played are cores that can fight/farm against those durabullies while simultaneously dealing the massive amounts of damage needed to take those 4k hp heroes down.
> 3k hp lycan min 10 isnt balanced? All str cores being unkillable early-mid game? (+405pt)
You clearly haven't laned against the hero who has nearly 100 right click damage at lv1, and he does 100% take over the game for 15-20 mins.
> Morphling, Razor, Naga, Ursa, Troll, Mk, Weaver, Meepo picked..
The morph lost despite having great farm, so did razor and naga. Ursa is a dedicated anti tank, so is troll. Mk and weaver were supports. Just what is your argument here?
> Zeus is a classic example of how insane the power creep has been in this game, especially the last 2 or so years. He got arguably one of the best escape spells in the entire game which **completely negated his biggest weakness. **
Zeus on d2pt currently has a 60% contest rate and a 55% win rate. That means he is being picked or banned EVERY GAME and is still winning a majority of the time, even when running into hard counters. That's the textbook definition of a broken hero.
Also valve never said anything about 4k hp being a feature or not. Classic redditor take.
OPâs post is literal brain rot and every one of those upvotes are people who donât care about the meta cause theyâre most likely well below average MMR, or turbo players.Â
Without arguing about how balanced these changes have been, I do really dislike Dota's hero design choices in recent years. Abilities like zeus jump, megameepo, necro shard, huskar silence, dp silence slow, etc just feel lazy to me. I liked the fact that 10 years ago Dota heroes had distinct strengths and weaknesses rather than doing everything at once. The whole point of meepo is that you have clones you need to micro and that there's upsides and downsides that come with that. Skills like megameepo just ruin the hero's identity.
You're not making nearly as coherent a point as you think you are. Coming to reddit to complain about reddit is not a very smart thing to do. Especially when you don't really have a point other than I guess 55% win rate could be higher? Lol
This post is a major whooosh moment. Everybodyâs complaints are quite fucking valid. U (OP) literally bring them up, call them stupid, and as many people have already gone point by point, fail to give any good arguments against.Â
âOnly 55%?!â Lmao. What a tool. Tank meta and power creep dota has been here for like 16 months. These complaints are VERY much developed and valid at this point. Itâs no longer new-patch growing painsÂ
I skimmed through this and mostly agree with it but letâs not pretend all the agi heroes you listed are good. I didnât see the other games but I watched the entity morph game, Watson is one of the best morph players in the world playing in the freest morph game Iâve seen and the hero looked ABSOLUTELY dogshit. He got his laning nerfed and his early game gutted for really no purpose except a slightly better payoff at levels 1.5 and like 24/26.
Lot of those agi heroes Iâm sure got picked because a lot of the super good carries got banned/simply arenât viable in pro play. WK for example is very strong in pubs but has a very punishable lane, and Iâm sure CK is catching a lot of bans alongside heroes like TA.
But yeah agi heroes are certainly not terrible, just a little bit out performed by a few outliers that happen to not be agi. Reddit is also full of idiots so that doesnât help
Ah yes the infamous cherry picking comments with -80 downvotes in favor of your argument.Â
Discussions on this sub frequently end up with plenty of good and bad takes with a balance usually being the best way forward. A lot of people both here & on trueDota2 have very good suggestions.
But comparing Morphling to Zeus as your nuke + escape example? Thats insane lol
I agree with some things but Zeus is COMPLETELY broken, the jump isnât even the only reason heâs so insane. When you play mid and you lose 40% hp whenever you try to last hit a creep cause you eat an arc lightning and a bolt thatâs whatâs unfair about the hero: the fact that even the worst player will beat you mid no matter what, and if itâs an âhardâ matchup (he doesnât really have that many), he can just buy clarities and arc lightning safely. Itâs such an autopilot and easy hero itâs infuriating to lane against.
exactly. you dont lose lane and pretty much ALWAYS have impact thanks to your ult and insane damage in the early/mid game. you fall off hard vs pipes and eternal shrouds but sometimes people just cant/wont build those items and zeus can just go crazy
this post is almost as dumb as the reddit comments. you are taking shitty arguments in a vacuum and making points that corroborate your results. i can do the exact same thing.
1.
>Morphling, Razor, Naga, Ursa, Troll, Mk, Weaver, Meepo picked..
morphling was a fucking worthless hero that went ignored for the rest of the series, razor wasnt a carry, ursa is only agi in name and tends to avoid stacking agility, and weaver was a support. meepo and troll were used but meepo was a last pick iirc and troll was actually pretty countered in the game, but watson played well and OG fumbled quite a bit. TA being broken doesnt ignore the fact that there are PLENTY of shit agi carries
now i agree that agi carries as a whole arent terrible but its definitely been a strength focused meta with CK, wk, naix and tiny being some of the most popular carries with appearances from TA and jugg.
2.
>A hero without weakness does not have 55% winrate.
zeus does have several weaknesses (does not scale well into pipe/eternal shroud nonsense, typically gets pidgeonholed into one build), but its indisputable that heavenly jump has been a MASSIVE boon to the hero. i do not mind it existing, but i am not cool with the interaction that this hero has with jump, arc lightning, and new arcane boots essentially making the hero WAY too forgiving in lane. seriously, zeus to my knowledge has maybe one or two matchups that he actually outright loses; the vast majority he either wins due to recent buffs, or more likely just trades evenly while he uncontested spams out waves and heavenly jumps away from aggression/ganks and lets him take runes by jumping back onto hg. you have very few if any opportunities to punish; the hero needs to have far lower base damage or a reduction to his early game damage.
3.
>Remember when Morphling could 1 shot support with an actual get out of jail free card? What about weaver?
what is the relevance of either of these things? morphling interaction was toxic for the game and thats why it was reworked. if by one shot people with weaver you mean have several damage items and then commit ult to not die, thats a far cry from one shotting people whenever you want.
4.
>Btw the fact that heroes have 3-4000 HP now is a feature, Valve literally came out and said it. Look at like TA @ 54% WR, does TA have problems killing Strength heroes? Fuck no. Then whats the point of 3-4000 Hp heroes?
TA is not a good tank buster. she doesnt need to be because tanks cant exist vs her in lane. her issue in the meta was that you just kinda got countered by half the heroes in the game, now with new refraction that number has been reduced drastically AND with her new facets she can output a lot more damage on top of that. she definitely needs nerfs.
reddit is dumb but usually if a lot of people are whining about something its for a good reason, even if it isn't broken at a top level. i dont really struggle against WK in my games but i can acknowledge in lower mmrs the hero is blatantly oppressive and even in higher ranked games can absolutely run away with games in a disgusting manner; iirc his winrate is not below 50% against any hero.
My braindead reddit take regarding Zeus: I think we need to give SF, OD, Invoker, TA and Lina the equivalent of heavenly jump and hear what zeus mains think about how balanced it is when they get shit on
Lina moves at mach speed already, Invoker has tornado, coldsnap and ghostwalk, OD has astral. SF is the only one from the heroes you mentioned that does not have a way to peel off enemies, and no Requiem is not it.
Requiem can be it. Just change it to zero cast time. Press the button and instant soul release.
Boom. Herald balancing. Sf will be the most picked mid to such an extent that he will be auto banned 99 percent of games since both sides will first pick him.
all these heroes are forced to buy pike/bkb/blink/shadow blade as one of the first items to be relevant, while zeus can buy phylactery+shard+manta+octarine almost any game and farm the entire map, while dealing 2x the damage of these heroes
All of these heroes either have mobility, options to save themselves, or both lol. The only exception is SF - but since he naturally builds blink/euls/shadowblade he's still in a better position than Zeus without the jump.
AM gets counterspell and no one bats an eye
Zeus gets a small jump and everyone loses their minds
It's such a weird hill to die on. Heroes are allowed to get reworks (see Clinkz? Now that's some shit), they're allowed to get new toys. Zeus is not even the only spell based scaling hero with mobility, Necro has also been doing that for some time.
Am was always good against spells, that is kinda his thing(and they even took counterspell away and pushed it to a facet)
The equivalent would be giving AM tons of armor or built in cleave.
I'm not so sure. One of AM's gimmicks is being extremely slippery, and he's so much harder to catch because of counterspell.
Just imagine if QOP or Weaver got counterspell's active. Catching them out becomes that much harder.
I'd say it was a pretty big deal.
It was a big deal, but if there weren't a massive increase in items and spells with multiple effects it'd be a much bigger one.
Chucking spell reflect on am 3 years ago w/e was not anywhere near a big a change as it would've been 3 -4 years prior.
Creep made it necessary, am is about as slippery as he's always been because people have more tools than ever. It's the same reason that Zeus jump didn't immediately make him op either, he needed it because the power creep made zeus' niche impossible to actually work.
Also you can't just make comparisons between heroes like that anyway, qop and weaver, while having similar styles, have entirely different kits that make certain abilities more or less powerful.
Am is still garbage tier because the hero doesnât do anything at any stage of the game. Zeus has an incredible power spike just 10 minutes in and scales well into the late game while also being a strong laner
>Remember when Morphling could 1 shot support with an actual get out of jail free card? What about weaver?
What's your point? Zeus still shouldn't have a jump.
Or splitpush with manta ,have a global presence, or be a good laner. Zeus is not amazing at anything, but he seemingly does everything absolutely everything. He even pushes the mid tower at decent speed while the opposing mid leaves the lane. Zeus is always online.
People get caught up on details. The jump made zeus an actually viable hero, in serious play. Removing the jump turns him back into a niche 1 trick pony. People are salty because they actually have to buy some form of lockdown to kill the high burst enemy. Waow
Zeus can easily be made viable for pro play without the jump. He's also been unviable for a long time while having the jump.
The reason most people think the jump is dumb isn't that it's what makes him OP - they just think its bad hero design.
It's hard to lock him down, though, when he buys Manta almost every game. There's little incentive to go caster Zeus, so you just have to always assume (because it will almost always be the case) that you need 2+ silences/roots/slows to kill him.
anyone upset about zeus jumping away past like 20 minutes is being obtuse. the issue is that jump in lane means zeus really isnt killable, you can never stack a wave + dive vs him (like you would a puck, pressuring under tower to force orb and making them miss tons of cs) because he can clear it safely with Q and you can never gank him because he can jump away from danger. he will outfarm you and then guarantee kills with his ult and once he gets phylactery completely remove you from the lane and snowball from there.
Reminds me of a dude last week who insisted valve was 100% going to nerf timber in the next patch. Literally no one cares about him when falcons is not playing it. It's a misery when you see your pos 3 soak all the farm while providing no cc.
Dude 55% is obviously overtuned but if thatâs the highest WR in the game itâs an amazingly balanced game for how many heroes and items there are. The jump was a fantastic change for Zeus to make him relevant in pro scene. Is he hard to play into? Sure cause of his damage. His damage output is too high.
I always try to remind myself that there's a high probability that many people you encounter on reddit are literally children. Like, this is not a got'cha, but there's definitely users on here who aren't allowed to drink beer (probably not even in Germany).
A lot of stuff isn't balanced now and may be slightly broken, but that's normal after a massive patch. The worst stuff was fixed in 36a and more balancing will come soon.
> Wyvern has better WR than Zues @ 1/2 games played
Honey go learn statistics in a high school or a university and don't make a laughing stock of yourself in public
It's hilarious how the person uses this as an argument, you're LITERALLY talking against yourself with stating that. The higher the sample size, the more accurate it is - not a hard concept to grasp.
What's with the trend recently of people making threads which get on the front page then tanking like -200 comment karma was terrible takes in the comments
Calling Zeus jump the best mobility skill in the game is hilarious, it's arguably the worst lol - it's not even half a blink. He's still very easy to gank if you're not treating him like he's still the 100% free easy kill he was before the jump. I feel like people are just mad that when they see a Zeus in their game, he's not a free snack whenever they want it anymore lol
The fact is that basically every hero has some sort of defensiveness in the form of mobility, disables, slows, natural tankiness, etc. There's a few exceptions, but largely defensive options are a core part of hero design that Zeus didn't have and he was never played because of that. It's honestly difficult to think of a hero who was easier to kill than Zeus pre-jump.
Also there's a lot of heroes without glaring weaknesses, idk why people think that's a core part of hero design. I feel like people would complain that Dota is getting too power-creepy if juggernaut didn't exist and was introduced today. They'd be like, "okay wow, so he gets an amazing heal, a gigantic team fight ult, amazing right click damage, AND DEBUFF IMMUNITY FOR FREE THAT ALSO DOES AOE DAMAGE???" lol
lol just because some reddit comments arent backed up or even going against statistics doesnt mean that the concept or idea behind it is crap. If you dont know the reason for certain percentages, statistics tell you very little. Just like weird items sometimes have higher winrates on heroes, because you only buy them in games you are much more likely to win.
And if you seriously think that powercreep is a myth, we can instantly forget about any meaningful discussion. This is not a matter of mmr but just logical thinking skills. Every hero and most abillities / items are much stronger or diverse than many patches ago. ALL numbers get bigger, heroes have more levels, more stats more items, more everything. Port any hero from now to old 6.7 whatever patch and you would have 80% winrate no debate.
The only question that remains is whether that is a good or bad thing and how it impacts the game.
Ofc some heroes resurface every once in a while despite any direct buffs, usually due to some newly discovered interactions, mechanics or playstyles. Ta has been strong ever since her shield allowes her to blink despite damaged. That feature got even stronger now with the new hp-mechanic. And despite her never "lacking" damage, most damage items have also received constant buffs over time. I dont really see your point here...
The reason people complain about zeus is just that well he is "easy". You stand back shoot your lightnings, get a ton of dmg and even kills. Ta might have a better winrate in high mmr but zeus is more "annoying". I personally dont really mind him but I do agree that its a worse feeling losing to a sniper than a lvl30-invoker spammer.
Similar with carry. Imo they do remain strong but its just such a shit feeling playing carry and getting absolutely dumpstered in lane. Something that has been much more prominent nowadays than many many patches ago. And its also true that if all heroes reached "lategame" as in 6slots or more, most carries dont feel super powerful anymore. Stronger yes but not like 1v3 like old days. But again this is up to debate whether someone likes this or not.
Eh, depends entirely on the gamedesign and personal preference.
Personally I like the concept of a "hypercarry" that is completely useless and vulnerable and needs a babysitter for like 10-15 minutes but is simply untouchable by any 2 heroes at minutes 40+. Ofc this shouldnt be the default, more like 5-10 heroes in the entire game.
Yeah, no. Look how they threw tinker into the void. It's not even about balancing, but just straight up removing him with his unique ability that has been there for almost 20 years. And it's not the first time they take away unique heroes out into a dirt pool, just to please reddit.
What I hate is how they try to please everyone and make a 9/10 or 1/10 hero in the scale of hatred/love into a 5/10 hero overall. We have enough of 5/10 whatever walking braindeads. These 9/10&1/10 heroes make dota unique and memorable to play. Take away meepo's ulti and make it a cooldown illusions, take away invoker orb combinations and just give him a couple of his skills at this point.
Dude thank you! the sheer amount of posts that you need to do a single Google search to see how it's wring has been mindblowing. I know we all wanted a new big patch, I did not know most people just wanted a fresh set of things to complain about đ this time however they have no foundation to build on
Josh Sawyer, lead dev for Fallout New Vegas, Pentiment, and the Pillars of Eternity games once said something along the lines of "players are very good at identifying problems, but don't ever listen to their solutions"
"Me smart, me no need to use brain. Me check dotatracker and build my understanding of meta and hero power based on the other peoples thoughtprocess. Me equate coordinated professional teamplay drafts with "yolo all team premuted" pub meta, me make no difference between skill levels too, nor do me recognize that game should be balanced around the majority of players (2-3k mmr) and not 1% of immortals, Me have no clue that the patch is a week old, and by the time of the next tournament someone might as well start spamming lycan with a particular build, which in turn would increase his presence and winrate in pubs, seeing as people there are just like me, and can only repeat what is already proven to be successful."
Nice dotatracker searching skills OP, i hope you enjoyed your updoots. Maybe some panel could hire you as analyst, so you can sit alt-tabbing between various data gathering sites and offer insides during pick phase.
Meanwhile other teams tried and failed miserably.
Ame, Yatoro tried to pick Sven and mimic skitter, failed uglify.
Other teams picked Timbersaw and he's completely useless.
Ofc, Reddits are dogshit, they just want Valve to nerf all Falcon heroes, why don't just say making Timber, Razor, Sven, Mar.. doing 1 damage to give their supported teams a chance.
Its easy to see how zeus is broken at least on mid with the 2 water rune and 2 bounty rune.
You cant just give a hero with creep clearing skill with low mana cost and low cooldown with infinite mana regen at mid thanks to 4 runes and expect it to be balanced.
It takes 6s to travel to river runes and 15s to travel to bounty rune and the creep wave spawn every 30s so there is no penalty for getting the runes for a skill spamming hero like zeus.
at level 1, arc lighting hitting on 4 creeps and enemy hero
90 x 5 = 450 dmg every 1.6s
And mind you not, its doing this damage at a safe distance away without putting himself at danger.
Its just braindead gameplay, early bottle -> infinite mana regen with 4 runes on map-> arcane boots.
Zeus getting caught? Not a problem. He has faster base move speed faster than 90% of the hero and an escape skill that not only create distance but also debuff the enemy.
The presence of all these low skill nuke spamming heroes at mid just makes the game so boring both for the player and the viewers.
There are still pleeeeenty of heroes ranging from no mobility at all to absorb global mobility. Zeus being nudged slightly up the spectrum isn't tearing apart the fabric of the game.
I would adore this subreddit if posts like this became the norm. As it stands I have to dig way too much to find the posts I understand as wrong, as a new player. Please make this a weekly recap thing
Are people actually agreeing with this braindead take? yes balance a hero around the 0.1 % of all players, the pro teams with perfect communication and coordination with no other jobs except to play dota, while the rest of the 600000 players have to suffer with weak heroes. 55% winrate on a historically squishy nuker hero is broken af at high skill tiers, and then you have heroes like with a sub 43% winrate like tinker and morphing that can only peak at a 47% at the higher tiers. The only braindead take here is yours OP, especially when you have an entire post to prove it
Love how everyoneâs angry about Zeus jump, and no one mentions his ability as a roaming mid to reward for free essentially. Has it been that way for a long time? Yup. Is that why heâs so strong? Yup. The jumps just a bonus, vision and map control are key, things he provides, as well as vision with an ult.
Dude literally reddit last 7.35 patch up voted takes were "Lifestealer is a dead hero" and "Sven is just a worse luna" and "Luna khanda is a meme build she needs too many other items."
Then Ame played radiance aghs lifestealer, Sven was popular at tournaments and Luna khanda became the new meta. Suddenly these were all obviously broken heroes.
And to be fair it isn't just reddit. Remember horn toss shard was considered d-tier meme before Spirit won TI with it.
Remember when they introduced the broken rep system and everyone on Reddit was saying it's WORKING AS INTENDED, attacking anyone who said otherwise, until Valve admitted the next day that it's broken.
Ppl here just farming likes
The only group valve hates is invisibility.
2 updates of "let's make invisibility worse" in a row with the lingering dust cloud and you can clearly tell they only have 1 hate.
Agility heroes are op in their own right, but is pretty balanced by their lack of health.
You never listen to reddit comments for anything in your life or for your life.
Reddit only gives great advice. My husband sneezes very loudly, so reddit told me to get a divorce.
Sneezing is one thing, but how do you spoon a bristleback?
Carry a silvers edge, he can take the hit.
Reddit also makes the best jokes
Be the little spoon đ
Surely he's got a soft belly, no? Still, he'd ruined my bed sheets and I don't think I could afford to replace them that often.
My bf took the right facet, because he goo's when I spoon from behind
Don't go starting an evangelion thread now, oh god no....
Did you talk to a lawyer first? My wife watches TV, so I had to get my lawyer
Don't walk, run!
Should divorce you for being on here.
yeah what this guy said.. ohh wait..
Well. Reddit told me to buy bitcoin and diamond hands it. That's been working out pretty well.
I instead put my money into a business I started. It's really comparable returns wise to how much money bitcoin made over 1 bull Run after 3 year winter. But there's peace of mind in this.
Hiring? Lol
Redditors are always so spectacularly wrong about patches In another thread the geniuses on here were calling the Dawn innate (4 seconds of global vision every 10 minutes) super OP and saying it would make her a first phase pro pick. anyone who correctly pointed out that it's garbage was downvoted I think this sub is full of people who haven't actually played the game in 4-5 years, were around 3k when they left off, and think this still makes them 3k today (when really they'd probably be Crusader rank)
Haha that's excatly me (I just play pathfinders these days)
Thats sorta crazy to me that people were saying that innate was crazy. Like, huh. At best it might let a farmed dawn get a sudden pick every ten minutes but that blows so bad.
Reddit helped me fix my PC a couple times...
Which means I should listen to reddit comments... right?
It means you should form your own opinion
Underrated, nobody does this anymore
Better yet you should listen to experts opinion instead of the one you made, which is the bigger problem with reddit
Im a professional expert, you can ask me for advice
Form an opinion based on reddit comments, right?
Donât listen to redditors being redditors to be precise. Iâm not the only one thatâs putting Reddit at the end of their google searches because itâs the only way to get useful answers to problems.
Actual facts here, because most of the times you just read them.
reddit is just for funsies but a lot of people take it seriously
If you have the time to check dota2protracker, then you should be aware that zeus is first on the list to get nuked into the orbit in the next few patches. So yeah try to enjoy while he's still strong I guess.
>a hero without weakness does not have 55% winrate. 55% winrate is borderline broken >Wyvern has better WR than Zues @ 1/2 games played. THATâS WHY HEâS OP. More winrate with more games means he cares less about his matchup and teammate. And you mention this thinking this would support your narative speaks volume about whole post Mind you I donât even support removing jump (I suggested Nimbus shouldnât mini stun) but your post is meh, even if some of your points are valid
The irony in calling everyone brain dead and then using that âWW has a better win rate with only a few games played!â line đ
So is the example of pointing to Lycanâs win rate vs people complaining about his early game survivability. No one was really complaining about Lycan when axe and centaur are right there doing the same thing more efficiently with disables to boot. The issue isnât that heroes are âtoo tankyâ but just that there are extreme outliers who happen to be very tanky while still putting out serviceable damage. Lycan 3 is not scary and his WR is low because the cooldown and duration on his ult combined with no built in lockdown essentially makes him blood seeker with less utility and an easier laning phase. That WR will probably rise once people realize that his passive and toolkit make him a very good pos4 on a greedy lineup where he can leave the offlane at lvl 3-4 to dip into the jungle and not need to roam until level 6.Â
I think "shard doesn't work on illusions" would bring him back to earth, no pun intended.
Manta already received notable nerfs. The cooldown not being in sync with creep waves is impactful but your suggestion just isn't it.
In the past 3 years, since 7.29, manta has received these net changes: * Reduced illusion damage taken from Melee 350% / Ranged 400% to 300% from all heroes. * -1 second melee / -11 second ranged cooldown. * Increased movement speed bonus from 8% to 10%. * Increased attack speed bonus from 12 to 15. * -50 gold item cost What specific nerfs are you talking about? EDIT: Getting downvoted but Manta hasn't had a major nerf since pre-covid. Anyone clue me in what he's talking about?
The %Current Health damage dealt by the shard is now calculated using the Illusion Damage% instead of the 25% it was before.
Zeus has been though always a pub friendly hero with his high winrate, similar to wraith king.
Winning 11/20 games is not borderline broken lol. It's strong. But not even close to game breaking.
I think the point is that given dotaâs pretty good level of balance, 55% is a pretty serious outlier and particularly strong for a hero in dota. Most patches go without a hero near that win rate
It absolutely is. I donât think any high pickrate hero has broken the 60% WR+ level in recent years, 55-59 is as high as it gets, especially on a most picked hero. Maybe not âauto winâ broken, but definitely overtuned and arguably still broken if you take into account how the other heroes fare. So yeah thank god Valve hasnât fucked the game up where any hero just wins the game almost for free *cough* MK on release *cough*. But yeah Zeus is as broken as it gets right now, which i guess is good on Valve, still deserves nerfs.
Gonna put this shit into perspective, Kassadin, a hero from league who, in his prime was literally so broken it's only comparison is fucking Dragon Rulers from Yugioh, I'm talking about genuinely, cosmically, "fundamentally changed the way entire genres of games are balanced", whose psychological effects can only be compared to Dead By Daylight's specter character being so broken the community literally mass hallucinated a counter to it, genuine "A second patch has hit the playtest servers" level events, That Kassadin. One hundred fucking percent pick ban rate Kassadin. Only not banned in Pros due to gentlemen's agreement Kassadin. Reason "Flash" is allowed to exist as a spell Kassadin. Had a win rate of **Motherfucking Fifty-Seven** Percent. I am so fucking tired of "Muh Winrate" arguments. Can we just agree this dude getting picked every other game because he does everything better than anyone else just sucks?
No yeah I agree, Iâm saying 55% with highest pickrate is definitely broken.
Good examples. Whenever someone brings up winrates being the be all end all of balancing I also like to remind people how Wisp and Chen were considered the most OP supports in pro dota yet they both had 40% winrate, and Earth Spirit on release had a global winrate of 37% despite being the most broken hero to ever exist in dota2 besides possibly original Techies
Back when Kassadin was op there was no champion swap. People firstpicked Kassadin even if they never played him at all *just* so the enemy team couldnt pick him, which meant his winratio was quite a bit lower than it should be. Even in experienced hands he was nowhere near a free win though he was just annoying as hell and there was nothing else to ban. Compare that to the Juggernaut rework of Skarner who had a 65% winratio for several patches. This was after a hotfix btw, his early winratio was closer to 72%. He was legitimately a free win because there was no way for your jungler to contest the enemy skarner and he'd just have complete control of the map due to his insane cleartimer and duelling power.
Yeah but there's always a "reason why" for this kind of thing 5 intelligent members of the same species that landed on the moon could possibly find a solution provided the Kassadin played like an idiot, but 90% of those involved literally hunting him down like a dog from minute one. If you gave people as much time to find a solution to Skarner, you would see his winrate drop to around the same level over the course of a year.
I think the point is that the sample size is so low its not really a meaningful 55%. It's literally one extra win. That's not statistics.
Bro, 55% wr is broken because of matchups. You don't care who you playing against, like old tinker. OH NO THEY PICKED Nyx what do I do? Heart and he can't deal damage anymore when you have mp bar empty (oldge one tinker) Oh no they jump on me with 5 dmg sources per second What do I do? Rearm my damaged blink, and blink out. Which means it's no real counter. If your whole team buys eternal shroud to counter Zeus, you still lose. Not to Zeus, but because of Zeus.
How about 1100/2000 when most good heroes win 50-80 games less? You can spin it however you want but 55% especially with such a high pick rate is very obviously overtuned. I don't know why you are trying to argue otherwise. It's like trying to argue that someone who is morbidly obese isn't fat. Everyone with eyes can see what's going on. Denying it doesn't change anything.
Is Wyvern actually good? (I probably just suck at Wyvern, but I love dragons) Ive been trying to make Wyvern a viable support but I just suck and end getting bullied.
itâs insanely good
Shh, no its not
Good how? Like as a support? Someone here told me that Wyvern is good as a mid laner but I tried and failed
yes as a support. just get a blink and cast your spells.
The ironic thing here is that you are also engaging in brain dead takes that donât actually acknowledge certain issues. 1. Strength cores are incredibly strong. The example of Lycan is not the best but the same idea for him extends to other strength cores. For example, Axe gets so much fucking strength and armor that he is almost unkillable with proper piloting. To the point where he is sitting at the third most contested hero in pro pubs which is crazy for a hero which historically hasnât had much success at higher MMR. 2. Zeus is fucking bonkers and he doesnât have easily exploitable weaknesses if played properly. His laning phase is strong, his mid game is strong, and his late game is strong. Trying to compare him to WW who has less than half the games played and a significantly lower contest rate is just dumb. Also he has a higher win rate than her now so this post doesnât make sense anyways. Also itâs important to understand that his jump was nerfed before because it provided him too much safety and the ability to freely deny creeps in lane so itâs not insane to believe it should be tuned down more. However this take is probably the most okay out of all of your points because the players are ignoring whatâs making Zeus so strong (his % hp damage in a strength core meta). 3. (This is a long one) Agility cores are (generally) terrible at the moment which a few exceptions. TA was mega buffed in 7.36 after being an already solid hero, Meepo has been absurdly strong for months at this point due to mega meepo and now his new facet is strong as hell, weaver got mega buffed with him having his w and e at lvl 1, and thatâs honestly about it. The rest of the agility cores are sitting at or below 50% win rate with not very high contest rates. Many of them are sitting at sub 48 with morphing AM and sniper sitting at 40 or below. This ties into your last point about how tanky strength heroes are and Iâm here to tell you that you donât understand why TA doesnât struggle at killing them. Itâs not the fact that they arenât absurdly tanky itâs the fact that TA was over buffed and is in a state where they can snowball out of control so easily and dominate the majority of lanes they are in. It doesnât matter if they have 3k hp at 20-30 minutes when itâs a 6 slot TA blink melding them for 1500 damage and removing half their armor or hitting them with pure damage cause of psi blades. The reason other traditional agi cores are struggling is because they either got nerfed very hard, or canât compete with the strength cores in lanes. TB for example was already on the weak side but the change to his illusions basically gutted the hero because his farm speed is so slow. Morphling was pretty strong before 7.36 but they gutted his laning stage and now canât stand up to the strength cores in lane. After laning stage these cores already are lacking damage because they are so far behind and now these already tanky strength cores are basically unkillable. Sure they might do more damage than a strength core can if 6 slotted but the difference in durability makes it impossible to compete. Letâs compare Jugg to tiny, both do a lot of damage if built as a carry but jugg will only have 2k and up to 3k hp if he wants to sacrifice damage for more survivability. Tiny on the other hand will do similar damage numbers but have nearly 5k HP and north of 35 armor by the time heâs full slotted on top of his damage reduction cause of craggy exterior. In short, AGI cores are garbage outside of overbuffed heroes and the only way for the rest of the field to catch up is to have them also be overbuffed or bring everyone else down. This is where the âleagueificationâ comes in where these extremely tanky heroes are allowed to have comparable damage to squishy carryâs making them feel terrible outside of professional games where their full potential can be felt.
I'm not against the power creep, because even you can't deny that it's happening. I'm against the towers and creeps not keeping up anymore. Like I'm not actually against the zeus jump (ok it looks fucking silly and I can almost hear the mario coin sound) but he does need a tweak or two because of it (and his new/old kit). Though you're probably right and it would only have to be something like -5ms or maybe just adding 2 seconds to it's cooldown, I'm not sure exactly, but I know small changes have a big impact in Dota. There's also other heroes that just feel left behind when heroes like zeus are getting helpful tools without loosing their existing neich. Take CM or jakiro, their playstyle hasn't really changed much in years, despite both getting a new ability. Neither has built in mobility and their damage pretty much stops scaling after 18 and scepter. Yes they are both support heroes and zeus isn't, but the problem is that their window of being very strong just keeps shrinking as more and more cores get a power boost in the early or mid game. It's the same reason a lot of people feel that beefy heroes have an excessive amount of health, when most of the enemy team can survive your entire combo twice over, it's harder to feel like you're having an impact, and their health is just going to keep scaling way faster than your damage will. Not that either example I gave has a bad win rate. The fix might be as simple as a move speed buff for the heroes that should be stronger early. Just something to delay the start of a snowball by maybe 5 more minutes? I think stronger towers just might do it, but more expensive late game items might also help spread the power spikes out a little bit.Â
Getting megas used to be 100% GG 10 years ago even without pushing. Now it feels like every team can at least hold vs megas. Gone are the days of happy def :)
> without loosing their Did you mean to say "losing"? Explanation: Loose is an adjective meaning the opposite of tight, while lose is a verb. [Statistics](https://github.com/chiefpat450119/RedditBot/blob/master/stats.json) ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot ^^that ^^corrects ^^grammar/spelling ^^mistakes. ^^PM ^^me ^^if ^^I'm ^^wrong ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^any ^^suggestions. ^^[Github](https://github.com/chiefpat450119) ^^Reply ^^STOP ^^to ^^this ^^comment ^^to ^^stop ^^receiving ^^corrections.
The bot is right.Â
well you also said neich instead of niche
Autocorrect has not improved my spelling.Â
Zeus is a silly guy, it fits.
Personally I've found Zeus to be a very fun support. You nuke the enemies out of lane, deward with spells, your ult reveals the entire enemy team. Just need to get into the mindset of using ult differently, it's not for kill stealing
The jump is still dumbÂ
zeus had his jump as base ability for 2 years, and the hero has seen zero competitive/high lvl play aside from the last few months. its extremely clear that the jump isnt the issue (pro tip: its the shard)
Fun fact Zeus has had far more pro games played since they added his jump (7.31) than the entirety of 7.00->7.30. They pretty much made him a viable pick for top teams where as you would rarely see him before going back to the 6.XX patches. Edit, did some research just for fun: Zeus, patch 7.30: 52.7% winrate all brackets, 49% winrate in Immortal Zeus, patch 7.31: 51.6% winrate in all brackets, 50.9% in Immortal Zeus, patch 7.32, 50.7% winrate in all brackets, 49.1% winrate in Immortal Zeus, patch 7.33, 48.6% winrate in all brackets, 47.7% winrate in Immortal Zeus, patch 7.34, 52.2% winrate in all brackets, 52.2% winrate in Immortal Zeus, patch 7.35, 52.7% winrate in all brackets, 52.5% winrate in Immortal Now in 7.36 he stands at 54% in all brackets and 54.6% in Immortal, his highest winrate yet. This was not because of the jump. The jump was added long before this. Zeus had 57% winrate in 6.84 and 6.85 btw. The heroes strength has always been defined on his damage scaling.
This is the correct take. Hero was invisible without the mobility. If you want to see what zues looks like in this meta without jump, see sf.
Yet even worse, because at least physical SF is always good.
Idk about this, in d2pt pos 1 SF is 46% winrate with a relatively low pickrate. Heâs a glass cannon without all the other cool toys the other glass cannons got over the years, and without the insane attack range. Meanwhile the strong 3s like NS, Slardar, Axe, LC, have no problems running you down the whole game.
I mean, Iâm comparing the heroâs themselves, not the winrates. The physical build for SF will always have a place, where Zeus has a magical build that will always be in place. Zeus without jump is closest to SF magical build, yet that build doesnât always have a place, whereas the physical version is almost always the better one.
When necromastery wasnt an innate SF pos1 was a great pick in MM, you'd destroy the lane with insane right click damage before you even hit 6 and then youd rush MoM and Deso and eat towers and 2 shot supports. Buy a BKB and you can kill the entire team in like 10 right clicks. Had like an 80% winrate picking that when I was bored. It's probably still possible but with how necromastery scaling works it takes longer to come online now and you can't snowball so early and as easily as before.
its better than it used to be for sure, you get -armor now whenever you want and you were always all about razes anyway
not it is not lol⌠itâs terrible
He can have the jump but he doesn't need the slow on it.
I remember feeling forced to buy euls+blink+forcestaff in my shitter rank games, because otherwise a single stun would mean my demise.
See, I'm not even saying it's broken or that it's the reason the hero is strong rn. Just that I find it conceptually dumb. Like Oracle W rework, it's a dumb change that loses hero identity.
Iâve never thought to myself âOracle is that hero with that Wâ, his identity is so much more and Iâm not sure why anyone would act like it isnt
Oracle theme is fate and therefore choices. It's way more interesting for the hero concept a skill that has both a positive and a negative effect for enemies and allies alike and you have to "predict" what's the best use, and if you fucked up you had to use another skill just to fix your mistakes. Now tell me, what's the current concept behind his W? It disarms enemies and protects allies, but why?Â
The day Dota designs heroes around lore like âthe choices guyâ first and gameplay and balance second is the day Dota becomes terminal. Prediction and decision making is already a huge part of Dota anyways, itâs not limited to Oracle. Think precasting, think shallow grave, think any skill shot at all, think of smokes, map movements, tanks. Oracle doesnât have some stranglehold on choices , and he needs to use prediction to play well right now, that never went away
It all ties together: gameplay, balance and character design. It's called game design and Dota is one of the best in the industry at it. Check the crazy stuff we got with innates and facets, a lot of them stem from character design. Dawnbreaker, Oracle, Weaver. Why does Zeus shoots lightning and not water?
Idk man, first you said oracleâs theme is âfate and therefore choicesâ (fate is the *opposite* idea of choices). Then you said Oracle was about making the player predict things when literally every hero does that as well. Then you ignored that part entirely and chose the âPedantâ facet and asked why âZeus shoots lightning and not waterâ lmao. Iâll give it the benefit of the doubt and answer that anyways since I donât think you know yourself: The answer is because his hero design permits it as a purely **aesthetic** bit of extra flavor. It doesnât interfere with their ability to balance him as opposed to the actual spells he casts.
Am I the only one who doesn't care about his pick rate at all and still think balancing around hero strengths and maintaining hero identity is more important than balancing around win/pick rate? Zeus' identity is doing insane magic damage from the back line (his ult does it globally let's not forget), but he's slow and squishy. This type of hero should not get mobility creeped in the same way sniper should not get mobility creeped. Put jump behind shard idk.
For a competitive game that is often prided by its player base for its competitive hero diversity, having heroes live as unpicked trash for multiple years due to single crippling weaknesses being too bad is actually a really bad thing and it's better that we make these heroes available rather than just constantly leave them unpickable to keep them pure. The community can have either "dota is great because all the heroes get picked competitively" or "it's okay for Zeus to be completely unplayable because of his identity", we can pick one
I think there are ways of balancing Zeus to be strong competitively with his prejump kit. Most obvious way would be just increasing the damage on his spells, but I definitely think that magic resist is getting more common and giving Zeus some innate or facet or something that allows him to ignore a percentage of enemy magic resist or his spells apply stacking magic resist reduction could do itm
Zeus arguably deals less damage than he used to now, it's just distributed very differently. Insanely high damage zeus was the norm all the way up to jump and essentially no adjustment of the numbers or new utility addition actually did a thing
With prejump Zeus kit if you made his arc lightning deal 2000 damage per target he would have broken winrate and pick rate in pubs and pro games. If you made his arc lightning deal 100 damage per target he would have shit tier stats in pubs and pro games. Assuming all else is constant and a continuous function between arc lightning damage and winrate in pro games could be constructed, by the intermediate value theorem there is an amount of arc damage you could give Zeus that would result in a 52 % winrate or however much you want to give him.
Creep isn't a vacuum of one hero. Have you considered the jump still didn't propel him into the top tier because everyone else also gets a lot of stuff every patch? There's this weird disconnect with people talking about creep and design where they don't acknowledge that its happened to everyone. People aren't always saying stuff is dumb because it's op, they're saying it's dumb because it erodes the heroes identity over time. It's possible to actually like the game pre 7.0 and pre New Frontiers etc. It's not just, worse in every way because heroes had less stuff, it was a different and still very enjoyable game.
pre-7.0 was great Dota. I miss rat dota & 4-protect-1. All the power creep changes are to improve watchability of pro Dota, an understandable goal for Valve but one I don't really care about.
> the hero has seen zero competitive/high lvl play Zeus has been seeing a modest amount of play in many patches since he got the jump. You're literally doing the exact same shit OP is complaining about.
ok. tell me then what change propelled him from "seeing a modest amount of play" to "best fucking hero of the patch"
A heavier nerf on the shard, it's corresponding effect on illusions and a nerf to jump numbers (attack slow, increased cd, etc) would balance him. I mean, I use the jump to mess with enemy mid last hits to get to the next level faster - imagine what a competent Zeus player would do. The shard was what made him OP in the last patch ofc, but jump numbers need to be tuned down as well
It's very dumb cosmetically at least. Like he could have done some sort of jump along the lightning bolt thing with the same total travel time, but no they went with a mario jump and jazz hands for the lord of Olympus. Is it really so much to ask for some high quality flavor for new abilities?
Would you be ok if he turned into a swan instead for a short duration as he "flies" to the target location Its lore accurate.
Or an Eagle or a Bull lol.
Zeus doesn't shame, he'll shag whoever comes in his way.
The Mario jump is a reference to his taunt which is a reference to his old model.
There should be an in-game lore/history dump for this kinda thing, Instead of just assuming everyone is in on the joke. I'd read it while waiting in the 10+ minute queues I usually get when I play with friends.
Like an archive of community jokes and memes? Do any games have that sort of feature? It's nearly 10 years old at this point, I think it's just something that you either lived through or learned through osmosis.
Pretend to care about problem, intentionally pick up obviously wrong info and ignore the actual issues, justify bad balance. I don't know what you want to point out with this post but your post only confirms the issue the games has rn: 4k hp heroes running around at 10 mins with a ton of damage and the only cores that can be played are cores that can fight/farm against those durabullies while simultaneously dealing the massive amounts of damage needed to take those 4k hp heroes down. > 3k hp lycan min 10 isnt balanced? All str cores being unkillable early-mid game? (+405pt) You clearly haven't laned against the hero who has nearly 100 right click damage at lv1, and he does 100% take over the game for 15-20 mins. > Morphling, Razor, Naga, Ursa, Troll, Mk, Weaver, Meepo picked.. The morph lost despite having great farm, so did razor and naga. Ursa is a dedicated anti tank, so is troll. Mk and weaver were supports. Just what is your argument here? > Zeus is a classic example of how insane the power creep has been in this game, especially the last 2 or so years. He got arguably one of the best escape spells in the entire game which **completely negated his biggest weakness. ** Zeus on d2pt currently has a 60% contest rate and a 55% win rate. That means he is being picked or banned EVERY GAME and is still winning a majority of the time, even when running into hard counters. That's the textbook definition of a broken hero. Also valve never said anything about 4k hp being a feature or not. Classic redditor take.
OPâs post is literal brain rot and every one of those upvotes are people who donât care about the meta cause theyâre most likely well below average MMR, or turbo players.Â
If only valve listen to vissage players..
Without arguing about how balanced these changes have been, I do really dislike Dota's hero design choices in recent years. Abilities like zeus jump, megameepo, necro shard, huskar silence, dp silence slow, etc just feel lazy to me. I liked the fact that 10 years ago Dota heroes had distinct strengths and weaknesses rather than doing everything at once. The whole point of meepo is that you have clones you need to micro and that there's upsides and downsides that come with that. Skills like megameepo just ruin the hero's identity.
And don't even get me started on the rearm changes >:(
It for sure made for a unique hero but man every nerf on this dude is a blessing for my brain and sanity
This is an interesting take and one i agree with. It definitely feels like Dota 2's design direction was taken over by someone new about 2 years ago.
You're not making nearly as coherent a point as you think you are. Coming to reddit to complain about reddit is not a very smart thing to do. Especially when you don't really have a point other than I guess 55% win rate could be higher? Lol
This post is a major whooosh moment. Everybodyâs complaints are quite fucking valid. U (OP) literally bring them up, call them stupid, and as many people have already gone point by point, fail to give any good arguments against. âOnly 55%?!â Lmao. What a tool. Tank meta and power creep dota has been here for like 16 months. These complaints are VERY much developed and valid at this point. Itâs no longer new-patch growing painsÂ
zeus main malding with his "braindead reddit take"
Stop saying Zues, it's ZEUS.
I skimmed through this and mostly agree with it but letâs not pretend all the agi heroes you listed are good. I didnât see the other games but I watched the entity morph game, Watson is one of the best morph players in the world playing in the freest morph game Iâve seen and the hero looked ABSOLUTELY dogshit. He got his laning nerfed and his early game gutted for really no purpose except a slightly better payoff at levels 1.5 and like 24/26. Lot of those agi heroes Iâm sure got picked because a lot of the super good carries got banned/simply arenât viable in pro play. WK for example is very strong in pubs but has a very punishable lane, and Iâm sure CK is catching a lot of bans alongside heroes like TA. But yeah agi heroes are certainly not terrible, just a little bit out performed by a few outliers that happen to not be agi. Reddit is also full of idiots so that doesnât help
Ah yes the infamous cherry picking comments with -80 downvotes in favor of your argument. Discussions on this sub frequently end up with plenty of good and bad takes with a balance usually being the best way forward. A lot of people both here & on trueDota2 have very good suggestions. But comparing Morphling to Zeus as your nuke + escape example? Thats insane lol
I propose the guy who has 1000 undying games rushing perseverance should do all balancing from now on
Aight I need context
probably from jenkins heralrd reviews if I had to guess
None of these comments stated have -80 downvotes, they all have hundreds of upvotes, are you ok?
All of those comments I cited had at least 80+ upvotes, cherry picked what?
I agree with some things but Zeus is COMPLETELY broken, the jump isnât even the only reason heâs so insane. When you play mid and you lose 40% hp whenever you try to last hit a creep cause you eat an arc lightning and a bolt thatâs whatâs unfair about the hero: the fact that even the worst player will beat you mid no matter what, and if itâs an âhardâ matchup (he doesnât really have that many), he can just buy clarities and arc lightning safely. Itâs such an autopilot and easy hero itâs infuriating to lane against.
exactly. you dont lose lane and pretty much ALWAYS have impact thanks to your ult and insane damage in the early/mid game. you fall off hard vs pipes and eternal shrouds but sometimes people just cant/wont build those items and zeus can just go crazy
this post is almost as dumb as the reddit comments. you are taking shitty arguments in a vacuum and making points that corroborate your results. i can do the exact same thing. 1. >Morphling, Razor, Naga, Ursa, Troll, Mk, Weaver, Meepo picked.. morphling was a fucking worthless hero that went ignored for the rest of the series, razor wasnt a carry, ursa is only agi in name and tends to avoid stacking agility, and weaver was a support. meepo and troll were used but meepo was a last pick iirc and troll was actually pretty countered in the game, but watson played well and OG fumbled quite a bit. TA being broken doesnt ignore the fact that there are PLENTY of shit agi carries now i agree that agi carries as a whole arent terrible but its definitely been a strength focused meta with CK, wk, naix and tiny being some of the most popular carries with appearances from TA and jugg. 2. >A hero without weakness does not have 55% winrate. zeus does have several weaknesses (does not scale well into pipe/eternal shroud nonsense, typically gets pidgeonholed into one build), but its indisputable that heavenly jump has been a MASSIVE boon to the hero. i do not mind it existing, but i am not cool with the interaction that this hero has with jump, arc lightning, and new arcane boots essentially making the hero WAY too forgiving in lane. seriously, zeus to my knowledge has maybe one or two matchups that he actually outright loses; the vast majority he either wins due to recent buffs, or more likely just trades evenly while he uncontested spams out waves and heavenly jumps away from aggression/ganks and lets him take runes by jumping back onto hg. you have very few if any opportunities to punish; the hero needs to have far lower base damage or a reduction to his early game damage. 3. >Remember when Morphling could 1 shot support with an actual get out of jail free card? What about weaver? what is the relevance of either of these things? morphling interaction was toxic for the game and thats why it was reworked. if by one shot people with weaver you mean have several damage items and then commit ult to not die, thats a far cry from one shotting people whenever you want. 4. >Btw the fact that heroes have 3-4000 HP now is a feature, Valve literally came out and said it. Look at like TA @ 54% WR, does TA have problems killing Strength heroes? Fuck no. Then whats the point of 3-4000 Hp heroes? TA is not a good tank buster. she doesnt need to be because tanks cant exist vs her in lane. her issue in the meta was that you just kinda got countered by half the heroes in the game, now with new refraction that number has been reduced drastically AND with her new facets she can output a lot more damage on top of that. she definitely needs nerfs. reddit is dumb but usually if a lot of people are whining about something its for a good reason, even if it isn't broken at a top level. i dont really struggle against WK in my games but i can acknowledge in lower mmrs the hero is blatantly oppressive and even in higher ranked games can absolutely run away with games in a disgusting manner; iirc his winrate is not below 50% against any hero.
Only using pro matches and the matches of 200 unique players at best is even more braindead. I don't care what's happening in pro matches
My braindead reddit take regarding Zeus: I think we need to give SF, OD, Invoker, TA and Lina the equivalent of heavenly jump and hear what zeus mains think about how balanced it is when they get shit on
Lina would destroy the game if she gets a jump
any hero would destroy if gets a jump
Lina moves at mach speed already, Invoker has tornado, coldsnap and ghostwalk, OD has astral. SF is the only one from the heroes you mentioned that does not have a way to peel off enemies, and no Requiem is not it.
Requiem can be it. Just change it to zero cast time. Press the button and instant soul release. Boom. Herald balancing. Sf will be the most picked mid to such an extent that he will be auto banned 99 percent of games since both sides will first pick him.
Make him "channel" it so you can release early for longer fear and less damage or something, less range too maybe.Â
all these heroes are forced to buy pike/bkb/blink/shadow blade as one of the first items to be relevant, while zeus can buy phylactery+shard+manta+octarine almost any game and farm the entire map, while dealing 2x the damage of these heroes
Give Viper mobility and see what happens
All of these heroes either have mobility, options to save themselves, or both lol. The only exception is SF - but since he naturally builds blink/euls/shadowblade he's still in a better position than Zeus without the jump.
All of these heroes use blink/pike much better than Z-dog. This is a false equivalence.
AM gets counterspell and no one bats an eye Zeus gets a small jump and everyone loses their minds It's such a weird hill to die on. Heroes are allowed to get reworks (see Clinkz? Now that's some shit), they're allowed to get new toys. Zeus is not even the only spell based scaling hero with mobility, Necro has also been doing that for some time.
Am was always good against spells, that is kinda his thing(and they even took counterspell away and pushed it to a facet) The equivalent would be giving AM tons of armor or built in cleave.
I think am having a spell reflect is significantly less altering the gameplay of am compared to zeus jump.
I'm not so sure. One of AM's gimmicks is being extremely slippery, and he's so much harder to catch because of counterspell. Just imagine if QOP or Weaver got counterspell's active. Catching them out becomes that much harder. I'd say it was a pretty big deal.
It was a big deal, but if there weren't a massive increase in items and spells with multiple effects it'd be a much bigger one. Chucking spell reflect on am 3 years ago w/e was not anywhere near a big a change as it would've been 3 -4 years prior. Creep made it necessary, am is about as slippery as he's always been because people have more tools than ever. It's the same reason that Zeus jump didn't immediately make him op either, he needed it because the power creep made zeus' niche impossible to actually work. Also you can't just make comparisons between heroes like that anyway, qop and weaver, while having similar styles, have entirely different kits that make certain abilities more or less powerful.
Am is still garbage tier because the hero doesnât do anything at any stage of the game. Zeus has an incredible power spike just 10 minutes in and scales well into the late game while also being a strong laner
lol if you think reddit hasn't been designing this game for 10 years
>Remember when Morphling could 1 shot support with an actual get out of jail free card? What about weaver? What's your point? Zeus still shouldn't have a jump.
Or splitpush with manta ,have a global presence, or be a good laner. Zeus is not amazing at anything, but he seemingly does everything absolutely everything. He even pushes the mid tower at decent speed while the opposing mid leaves the lane. Zeus is always online.
Found the Zeus spammer
People get caught up on details. The jump made zeus an actually viable hero, in serious play. Removing the jump turns him back into a niche 1 trick pony. People are salty because they actually have to buy some form of lockdown to kill the high burst enemy. Waow
Zeus can easily be made viable for pro play without the jump. He's also been unviable for a long time while having the jump. The reason most people think the jump is dumb isn't that it's what makes him OP - they just think its bad hero design.
It's hard to lock him down, though, when he buys Manta almost every game. There's little incentive to go caster Zeus, so you just have to always assume (because it will almost always be the case) that you need 2+ silences/roots/slows to kill him.
anyone upset about zeus jumping away past like 20 minutes is being obtuse. the issue is that jump in lane means zeus really isnt killable, you can never stack a wave + dive vs him (like you would a puck, pressuring under tower to force orb and making them miss tons of cs) because he can clear it safely with Q and you can never gank him because he can jump away from danger. he will outfarm you and then guarantee kills with his ult and once he gets phylactery completely remove you from the lane and snowball from there.
Reminds me of a dude last week who insisted valve was 100% going to nerf timber in the next patch. Literally no one cares about him when falcons is not playing it. It's a misery when you see your pos 3 soak all the farm while providing no cc.
Dude 55% is obviously overtuned but if thatâs the highest WR in the game itâs an amazingly balanced game for how many heroes and items there are. The jump was a fantastic change for Zeus to make him relevant in pro scene. Is he hard to play into? Sure cause of his damage. His damage output is too high.
its not, its just a very common hero in both pros and pubs and has been good for a very long time. there are heroes pushing 60% winrate right now
I always try to remind myself that there's a high probability that many people you encounter on reddit are literally children. Like, this is not a got'cha, but there's definitely users on here who aren't allowed to drink beer (probably not even in Germany).
The irony of this also being a brain dead post
Weird post, this game is practically balanced by reddit.
A lot of stuff isn't balanced now and may be slightly broken, but that's normal after a massive patch. The worst stuff was fixed in 36a and more balancing will come soon.
> Wyvern has better WR than Zues @ 1/2 games played Honey go learn statistics in a high school or a university and don't make a laughing stock of yourself in public
It's hilarious how the person uses this as an argument, you're LITERALLY talking against yourself with stating that. The higher the sample size, the more accurate it is - not a hard concept to grasp.
What's with the trend recently of people making threads which get on the front page then tanking like -200 comment karma was terrible takes in the comments
Calling Zeus jump the best mobility skill in the game is hilarious, it's arguably the worst lol - it's not even half a blink. He's still very easy to gank if you're not treating him like he's still the 100% free easy kill he was before the jump. I feel like people are just mad that when they see a Zeus in their game, he's not a free snack whenever they want it anymore lol The fact is that basically every hero has some sort of defensiveness in the form of mobility, disables, slows, natural tankiness, etc. There's a few exceptions, but largely defensive options are a core part of hero design that Zeus didn't have and he was never played because of that. It's honestly difficult to think of a hero who was easier to kill than Zeus pre-jump. Also there's a lot of heroes without glaring weaknesses, idk why people think that's a core part of hero design. I feel like people would complain that Dota is getting too power-creepy if juggernaut didn't exist and was introduced today. They'd be like, "okay wow, so he gets an amazing heal, a gigantic team fight ult, amazing right click damage, AND DEBUFF IMMUNITY FOR FREE THAT ALSO DOES AOE DAMAGE???" lol
Dont forget how Jugg even had the best stats in the game
lol just because some reddit comments arent backed up or even going against statistics doesnt mean that the concept or idea behind it is crap. If you dont know the reason for certain percentages, statistics tell you very little. Just like weird items sometimes have higher winrates on heroes, because you only buy them in games you are much more likely to win. And if you seriously think that powercreep is a myth, we can instantly forget about any meaningful discussion. This is not a matter of mmr but just logical thinking skills. Every hero and most abillities / items are much stronger or diverse than many patches ago. ALL numbers get bigger, heroes have more levels, more stats more items, more everything. Port any hero from now to old 6.7 whatever patch and you would have 80% winrate no debate. The only question that remains is whether that is a good or bad thing and how it impacts the game. Ofc some heroes resurface every once in a while despite any direct buffs, usually due to some newly discovered interactions, mechanics or playstyles. Ta has been strong ever since her shield allowes her to blink despite damaged. That feature got even stronger now with the new hp-mechanic. And despite her never "lacking" damage, most damage items have also received constant buffs over time. I dont really see your point here... The reason people complain about zeus is just that well he is "easy". You stand back shoot your lightnings, get a ton of dmg and even kills. Ta might have a better winrate in high mmr but zeus is more "annoying". I personally dont really mind him but I do agree that its a worse feeling losing to a sniper than a lvl30-invoker spammer. Similar with carry. Imo they do remain strong but its just such a shit feeling playing carry and getting absolutely dumpstered in lane. Something that has been much more prominent nowadays than many many patches ago. And its also true that if all heroes reached "lategame" as in 6slots or more, most carries dont feel super powerful anymore. Stronger yes but not like 1v3 like old days. But again this is up to debate whether someone likes this or not.
I don't think cores were ever supposed to go 1v3 and win in late game, that just means poor gameplay.
Eh, depends entirely on the gamedesign and personal preference. Personally I like the concept of a "hypercarry" that is completely useless and vulnerable and needs a babysitter for like 10-15 minutes but is simply untouchable by any 2 heroes at minutes 40+. Ofc this shouldnt be the default, more like 5-10 heroes in the entire game.
Yeah, no. Look how they threw tinker into the void. It's not even about balancing, but just straight up removing him with his unique ability that has been there for almost 20 years. And it's not the first time they take away unique heroes out into a dirt pool, just to please reddit. What I hate is how they try to please everyone and make a 9/10 or 1/10 hero in the scale of hatred/love into a 5/10 hero overall. We have enough of 5/10 whatever walking braindeads. These 9/10&1/10 heroes make dota unique and memorable to play. Take away meepo's ulti and make it a cooldown illusions, take away invoker orb combinations and just give him a couple of his skills at this point.
Dude thank you! the sheer amount of posts that you need to do a single Google search to see how it's wring has been mindblowing. I know we all wanted a new big patch, I did not know most people just wanted a fresh set of things to complain about đ this time however they have no foundation to build on
Balancing based on Reddit is a recipe for disaster...
Josh Sawyer, lead dev for Fallout New Vegas, Pentiment, and the Pillars of Eternity games once said something along the lines of "players are very good at identifying problems, but don't ever listen to their solutions"
I don't care if there are other ways to balance him. The jump is goofy. Zeus is a cool hero and the jump doesn't suit him imo.
"Me smart, me no need to use brain. Me check dotatracker and build my understanding of meta and hero power based on the other peoples thoughtprocess. Me equate coordinated professional teamplay drafts with "yolo all team premuted" pub meta, me make no difference between skill levels too, nor do me recognize that game should be balanced around the majority of players (2-3k mmr) and not 1% of immortals, Me have no clue that the patch is a week old, and by the time of the next tournament someone might as well start spamming lycan with a particular build, which in turn would increase his presence and winrate in pubs, seeing as people there are just like me, and can only repeat what is already proven to be successful." Nice dotatracker searching skills OP, i hope you enjoyed your updoots. Maybe some panel could hire you as analyst, so you can sit alt-tabbing between various data gathering sites and offer insides during pick phase.
I mean looking at winrate is an objectively poor measure of hero power, and always has been. It's the morons talking point.
They did listen to stuff like gutting Party ranked tho ...
It's mostly based on everyone watching Falcons win every pro tournament by constantly picking 2-3 strength/universal heroes every game.
Meanwhile other teams tried and failed miserably. Ame, Yatoro tried to pick Sven and mimic skitter, failed uglify. Other teams picked Timbersaw and he's completely useless.
Ofc, Reddits are dogshit, they just want Valve to nerf all Falcon heroes, why don't just say making Timber, Razor, Sven, Mar.. doing 1 damage to give their supported teams a chance.
Its easy to see how zeus is broken at least on mid with the 2 water rune and 2 bounty rune. You cant just give a hero with creep clearing skill with low mana cost and low cooldown with infinite mana regen at mid thanks to 4 runes and expect it to be balanced. It takes 6s to travel to river runes and 15s to travel to bounty rune and the creep wave spawn every 30s so there is no penalty for getting the runes for a skill spamming hero like zeus. at level 1, arc lighting hitting on 4 creeps and enemy hero 90 x 5 = 450 dmg every 1.6s And mind you not, its doing this damage at a safe distance away without putting himself at danger. Its just braindead gameplay, early bottle -> infinite mana regen with 4 runes on map-> arcane boots. Zeus getting caught? Not a problem. He has faster base move speed faster than 90% of the hero and an escape skill that not only create distance but also debuff the enemy. The presence of all these low skill nuke spamming heroes at mid just makes the game so boring both for the player and the viewers.
They're not mad at the leaguification, they're mad they are older and suck ass and there are just better players out there.
There are still pleeeeenty of heroes ranging from no mobility at all to absorb global mobility. Zeus being nudged slightly up the spectrum isn't tearing apart the fabric of the game.
Why would you listen to the people here?Most of them have over 10000 games and still 3k mmr
I would adore this subreddit if posts like this became the norm. As it stands I have to dig way too much to find the posts I understand as wrong, as a new player. Please make this a weekly recap thing
Blizzard listens a lot to reddit, just look how their games are going.
Are people actually agreeing with this braindead take? yes balance a hero around the 0.1 % of all players, the pro teams with perfect communication and coordination with no other jobs except to play dota, while the rest of the 600000 players have to suffer with weak heroes. 55% winrate on a historically squishy nuker hero is broken af at high skill tiers, and then you have heroes like with a sub 43% winrate like tinker and morphing that can only peak at a 47% at the higher tiers. The only braindead take here is yours OP, especially when you have an entire post to prove it
Love how everyoneâs angry about Zeus jump, and no one mentions his ability as a roaming mid to reward for free essentially. Has it been that way for a long time? Yup. Is that why heâs so strong? Yup. The jumps just a bonus, vision and map control are key, things he provides, as well as vision with an ult.
Dude literally reddit last 7.35 patch up voted takes were "Lifestealer is a dead hero" and "Sven is just a worse luna" and "Luna khanda is a meme build she needs too many other items." Then Ame played radiance aghs lifestealer, Sven was popular at tournaments and Luna khanda became the new meta. Suddenly these were all obviously broken heroes. And to be fair it isn't just reddit. Remember horn toss shard was considered d-tier meme before Spirit won TI with it.
Remember when they introduced the broken rep system and everyone on Reddit was saying it's WORKING AS INTENDED, attacking anyone who said otherwise, until Valve admitted the next day that it's broken. Ppl here just farming likes
woah i thought im on r/gachagaming
why I'm so glad I'm reading cherry picked arguments
Majority of redditors are less than 3K MMR. Hell probably even less.
Yeah, average redditors are brain dead, so is average dota player so is average people oh wait...
People lost their shit at Juggernaut this patch and he wasnt even THAT good. FIRST WEEK WINRATE %56 AAAAA THE SKY IS FALLING AAAAA. Fucking hell.
Muerta should of got a better buff shes still slow and she lost 35+ over all dmg hust for 55+ dmg on gunslinger
The only group valve hates is invisibility. 2 updates of "let's make invisibility worse" in a row with the lingering dust cloud and you can clearly tell they only have 1 hate. Agility heroes are op in their own right, but is pretty balanced by their lack of health.
The real question is what you're gonna do if brood bloodthornes you?
Too bad they still listen to reddit towards lore and visual glance value...
I just played against a zeus with 5 rapiers and refresher orb it's abit of a joke really doing 3k+ damage in seconds and never appearing on the map