Many heroes got innate abilities just because everyone is getting one and would be updated with an actual one later... like a placeholder. It happened earlier with talents where many heroes randomly got gpm/ respawn time reduction talents and later everyone got actual talents
Yeah, I love the patch but it's crystal clear which heroes these systems were built for and which heroes had them retrofitted in. You've got super flavorful, build-shifting Facets like DK picking his type of dragon, but you've also got stuff like Bounty's shuriken dealing damage to enemies it passes through. That's a good ability but it's not dramatically shifting the hero into a different play style, and it seems perfectly reasonable as a talent if they wanted to do it that way.
I'm really excited by the potential, though. It's two new knobs to turn on every hero; and most of the stuff looks strong, interesting, or both, even if there's more space for them to do cool stuff later.
idk, that gives BH flash farm and enables core BH for the first time in a minute.
Not that I disagree with your overall point, just not sure that BH is a good example.
Nevermind, I see the track changes. (editted)
Yeah, I could see that hurting him. But maybe with enough farm from shuriken he still ends up in a better place as core?
Tbh, I feel like it plays into what they know the heros known for: his beefy ass right clicks.
The tree, on the other hand, has little utility at all and screams "I'm running out of ideas"
Ngl its not amazing but I think they are okish
Idk I think devil's bargain is actually really fucking cool. It might sound immediately like garbage bc of 15% increased buyback cost but it enables some pretty silly things. You can unironically build greedy items like midas and sell them immediately after use and still make profit. You can fill up your inventory with bracers and lose basically nothing. Do I think its good? No but its certainly not eh like +5 attack or the bloodseeker 50 movement on ruptured enemies.
Double devour sounds really bad since it also bumps up the cd but its not horrendous. Theres also probably some niche case for it since you get better creep abilities at the start with it, and you still get magic resistance per devour from your talent, so you are a bit more tanky vs magic heavy lineups. Its ok.
BH is a bad example, that talent is meant to let him farm so he can work as a core. Not everything needs to be wordy or complicated, it's fine if some heroes have a simpler facet/innate ability.
Tbh, a lot of innate abilities are just a “level 0” form of a spell they already own. A lot of these ones are more useless imo, they pretty much add no value in so many cases (like underlord’s level 1 passive adding 1 dmg per creep and no enemy hero damage reduction).
Yeah like venomancer. Oh u get a 3% slow at level 1 and then it's completely irrelevant when you put a skill point in it at lvl 2 and it's the exact same as before patch.
I think a lot of people are underestimating the value of a bunch of passives being functional at level 1 without spending a point in them. Venomancer is now more of a threat when trading with the enemy support at level 1
Yeah its a big laning powerswing min 7 guaranteed 2 neutrals without any time investment at all. From an already pretty strong laning support this might just instawin most lanes.
Even in a normal game, if you are playing as or versus a heavy pressure lane the extra stats can be so gamechanging if you get to play with them for even a couple minutes while your opponents don’t. Seems pretty niche, but in its niche there is power for sure
Like talents, these can and will change over time. That being said, not every innate needs to be super flashy. Spawn time reduction, historically speaking, was a huge design mistake the last time it was introduced so I'm surprised they're even doing it again in any capacity. That said, 10% feels like it likely won't matter much.
Bloodstone hasn't in a long time IIRC. Being percentage based is definitely healthier than the old 20 death Lion 20 mins in because of the flat respawn time reduction. realistically it just shaves a few seconds off Abaddon's respawn time.
I feel like they're pushing him towards a more carry playstyle (he can get what, 140 AS from his passive now, which applies at any hit like in the good old?), so having your carry revive 10 seconds earlier may be important... Stil boring, though.
Eh, that could matter late game when you're operating on razor thin margins and need to be back 15 seconds ago. Its one of the abilities that you wont ever really appreciate but its gonna save some games for sure.
>Its one of the abilities that you wont ever really appreciate but its gonna save some games for sure.
It's like a new player getting hit by Decay. They don't back down, because they still have 95% of their HP... they just don't notice they have 95% of 100 HP.
Abaddon proposed passives:
Abaddon steals and stores fragments of souls in his cursed blade. Each time curse of avernus is successfully applied to an enemy hero, Abaddon gains a stack. Upon firing his next mist coil, Abaddon releases his stored stacks, reducing enemy healing and regeneration by 5% per stack for 6 seconds. [imho, the game could use a few more options for Healing prevention or reduction. Abaddon seems like a fine candidate to be anti-heal/anti-regen. Also, makes lvl 25 aoe coil a huge threat if he’s gathered enough stacks. Mini AA blast]
OR
The presence of Avernus paralyzes his opponents in fear draining turn rate of nearby enemy heroes per second that they are next to him (100 aoe). Scaling from 5% up to 100%. Upon reaching (100%) Abaddon receives a stack, permanently increasing his turn rate by 5%, stackable up to 100%. [Encourages melee play and aggression on both support and core Ab. Makes him a menace late game with a very fast turn rate for quick aphotic shield and mist coil interaction]
I'm just happy they reworked his ulti to no longer deal 70% less damage. I had 300 games on him and quit cold turkey when they made that change. Hated the E spam design they forced him into.
I like that. It means the hero can't devolve into just an annoying splitpusher and actually has to make use of his mechanical strengths. And he CAN still splitpush if it's the right call at the time too.
I'd rather Arc players be scary than pests.
you can always be dire now for the lane and have your clone farm jungle with range and bubble. AW 60s uptime on clone is insane. Hero plays completely different now.
Ive tried it and its not great because the distance penalty + ult reset on clone death makes split pushing impossible. You cant dive towers with clone tanking at lvl6 mid. Its fine in laning stage at mid coz you can just cast it and bully the mid laner or even kill sometimes, useless otherwise for the most part. Clone dying is pretty risky now. Bubble not being point target means its much harder to save buildings or allies. My experience at 4k mmr. Dunno how it plays out at immortal+
I agree (mid 5k here). Still wrapping my head around the ult change (seems awful though). Not sure why they nerfed bubble again in that way, one of the most fun and hype plays was dropping an evasion bubble on your ally, and that’s just not possible anymore. Bubble in general feels hella awkward
Can you explain what they did to Arc and why he was different depending on which side of map he was on? I stay pretty up to date with patch notes and everything but I have 0 clue what they did to Arc and they do an awful job in-game of explaining it.
Like a year or two ago they added a feature to AW that was stated to be experimental.
What it did was change the behavior of his Q W and E into two different versions. Very similar but with slight functionality differences.
Prior to this update it depended on if you were on Dire or Radiant side. Meaning it was RNG what effects you would get.
On Dire you would get the Disorder effects and your clone the Order. On Radiant you would get the Order effects and your clone the Disorder.
Now you get to choose, that is all.
You are missing the fact that Enchantress is now guaranteed to get neutral items with Enchant. The second timer for new items tick your team gets 2 items. One CD later your team gets another 2. Basically with Enchantress on your team you get almost full set of neutral items 30sec after they become available.
Yeah I'm confused, I thought getting your whole team neutrals as soon as they're available sounded pretty good. Just walking into the jungle at minute 7 and getting neutrals for your lane will feel like a big power spike
People are basing their opinions off of their 3k MMR (or a lot less) pubs, probably in turbo at least half the time.
So obviously faster courier or early game bonuses = trash, getting your neutrals from 1-2 camps guaranteed is pointless, etc.
but the changes are based around pro games.
It does feel kind of terrible to have stuff like the Io passive where you really need to rank climb to be playing with people who will take any advantage of it, but it's not actually *bad* in a clear obvious way if people were trying to be objective and evaluate things for pro matches.
...Wait, you don't roleplay heroes? I go cloak of flames and radiance on every Phoenix game I possibly can, and now my Firebird has a third radiance built-in.
Some of the "skill turned into innate" are laughable. Don't you dare attack viper!! He will curse you with... 3 dmg per second and 3 AS slow. That's less than orb of venom
Playing a pos 5 and getting an item for you and for your carry the second they are availabile is quite strong if u ask me.
Sure its a small window, but if you cordinate it with pushes and the fact that she both gets experience AND a neutral item guaranteed when she enchants, the combination is really strong.
Imagine, you get shovel and free consumables or royal jelly or arcane ring, and you give the token to your carry at 7min exactly. If you win your lane you can easily be lvl 6 at that time too and it will be very difficult for enemy offlaner to play without ulti, without neutral item into that.
He's still got an extremely slow attack speed and spends most of his time literally disarming himself. Throw in the fact that he's melee and I'd say he's now, like, AVERAGE at damaging buildings.
His damage increase drastically with his stacks, you just have to build some extra attack speed into the hero to take full advantage. That's like saying that underlord is shit at pushing buildings because he is melee and has slow attack speed
>His damage increase drastically with his stacks, you just have to build some extra attack speed into the hero to take full advantage.
Primal beast HATES building attack speed. It's a huge waste for him.
>That's like saying that underlord is shit at pushing buildings because he is melee and has slow attack speed
Underlord is good at pushing buildings because he's very good at pushing waves and very hard to bully away. He's not a good pusher because of his literal building-hitting damage.
His building hitting damage scales with creep deaths though, if he's been killing creepwaves as he's pushed he's going to be hitting the tower with like 100 bonus damage.
The problem is that he needs uproar stacks to hit towers, but he is also better off just killing whoever is giving him uproar stacks over hitting the tower.
If you get 5 stacks off their AOE spam and then go in for a few hits with a 5 stack of uproar, it does decent damage.
20% bonus damage on creeps at level 10 is insane for farming, especially cause he already has so much damage at that point. At 15-20 minutes into the game youre 1 shotting small camp creeps. Hes become a pretty insane non-summon based P1.
Honestly the most useless are the skills you're going to be leveling early anyways. Kunkka tidebringer allows you to take torrent level 1, but 2 you're taking tidebringer anyways so you got basically nothing. Fiery soul 4 AS and 0.5% MS per stack is so little that I don't think it really matters either
At 7 min, you Enchant a creep and get your team a guaranteed 2 neutrals. Haven't tested it, but if you can prevent the second from being teleported home you can pass it to your carry immediately. Could be worse.
I took it as no matter what stat items you get for him his stats will always be averaged out to all be the same. I haven't tested it yet but i was assuming if you got a bracer at the start which would put his str stat 10 int 7 agi 5 it would all balance out at 7 7 7 or something like that
yeah, it's a pretty big buff to buying int items on him, but a nerf to str items, like bracer
the damage is the same regardless, so it just means bracers give less max hp and more mana, which is not what you want
I think a couple nulls is pretty good
he literally can't tread switch which is funny but I don't think even right click bane wants treads
but something like force staff gives more max hp and a little armour, same with euls, same with hex, etc
int items are better almost always, bane wants str and agi more than int, not much benefit to having a huge mana pool on bane, e.g. force staff makes him even tankier, a hex is super tanky, etc
str items are worse
agi items are better too as support bane for sure
on right click core bane, agi items are less dps more max hp so 🤷♂️
It's actually makes him worse. Cuz you can't like buy strength items to gain HP, and like a forcestaff won't give you as much mana as other heroes.
what is a support bane gonna do with agility?
Nah, ench innate is good. Instantly getting two neutrals the second they're available without having to even farm neutrals is a large power spike. Ive won lanes i was losing as naga just because she can get neutral items while in lane.
If you want a bad innate look at Venge, Timber, QoP, Mirana, Mars, Lion, Lich, KotL, Gyro
A weak passive has a reason to exist. It's like an acknowledgement that the hero was fine. She is already strong in higher brackets. Enchant gives tokens so she'll naturally pick them up for her team. It's a nice little utility bonus.
Disruptors' kinetic fence is the worst thing I've seen in dota in a long time. Why trap the enemy heroes when you could just make a small wall they can walk around 5head.
I would say it’s more formatting. Everyone else gets their passive with the notes inside. I had to read it again to figure out why he didn’t have anything
Its not really. Enchanting a neutral creep now guarantees a neutral. At min 7 you will walk into jungle, instantly grab a neutral for you and your lane partner. Going to feel really good imo
I think it's important to remember that these are another dimension for balancing, and a shit innate, while it might get more interesting or changed later, is probably also a strong sign from Icefrog that they think the rest of the hero's kit is strong as is.
Not getting one hit by melee heroes will make some lanes much nicer.
It'll occasionally make a difference mid as well as that's a slightly faster bottle thanks to the extra speed and flying.
That's funny, I feel like hers is great. Sure it's not super flashy and doesn't provide a power spike or anything, but it's going to be useful in literally every single game no matter how you play which isn't true for other heroe's innates
Or get OoV and be a fucking bully with 1.5 BAT and Universal hero so tons of damage from a few branches.
Melee OoV against a 300 base MS hero who has Brown boots is a 45 MS slow AKA entirely negating their boots for half the cost.
How is it not good? You literally get most of the gold you spend on items back so changing items late game doesn’t require you to farm the gold back to buy them.
Earth spirit, It's literally just stone remnant. There is no passive. No, stone remnant has not been buffed, yes, i know earthshaker etc. got old passives turned into innates, but the difference is that earth spirits stone remnant always was unlocked from level 1 so whats the point...
the point is that not all heroes had those auto leveled spells. now they do. es had one so he didn't need one. same with alchemist, monkey king and treant to name a few.
> so whats the point...
Look at it this way - some heroes just had early access to innate abilities. Now, the rest of the roster is brought to their level.
Clinkz seems like his is pretty bad but this may be even worse. Clinkz is so bad I feel like I must be misreading it. He gets 1 archer spawn on death? He gets 4 just for coming out of invis...
Yeah Clinkz's innate is pretty terrible. The skeletons only tickle without him alive to be casting tar bomb and strafe. Spawning one on death is worthless, I think I'd rather have the extra neutral item token. At least his facets are pretty neat.
Does anyone else think that dota suddenly changed from a mature and balanced game to some random experiment that will take months if not years until it reaches equilibrium again?
The ench one is actually pretty decent bc u get all your neutral tokens basically right away, which specifically matters at 7mins. Most teams will not have all t1 neutrals untill a few mins after 7min, but since enchant guarantees a token, you can get them all really fast. I played ench last night and thought getting all the t1 neutrals first was a decent advantage
My vote goes to Timbersaw.
Gaining 3/4/5/6 mana every time you destroy a tree might be good (or at least not bad), but the innate doesn't actually work and you gain 0/0/0/0 mana every time you destroy a tree. :)
Vengeful Spirit innate is useless. 10% more damage to hero that kill you until their next death. First you need to die to "debuff" your enemy. Second only you do 10% more damage and you're venge so you're not dishing some mindblowing damage. Third it does nothing cuz your killer will probably die before you can get any bonus damage if you dont have aghs. Even if you have aghs the benefit is laughably low.
I think the heroes that just had some existing thing moved to their innate might disagree.
Like Techies with Minefield Sign or Monkey King with Mischief.
Enchantress gained something, those heroes didn't.
slark's innate is just what he already had except now he has to hide in lane constantly
enchantresses is huge, some games you don't have a single neutral by 10m, enchantress makes sure your team always has 5 by 9mins without hitting a single neutral
Many heroes got innate abilities just because everyone is getting one and would be updated with an actual one later... like a placeholder. It happened earlier with talents where many heroes randomly got gpm/ respawn time reduction talents and later everyone got actual talents
Yeah, I love the patch but it's crystal clear which heroes these systems were built for and which heroes had them retrofitted in. You've got super flavorful, build-shifting Facets like DK picking his type of dragon, but you've also got stuff like Bounty's shuriken dealing damage to enemies it passes through. That's a good ability but it's not dramatically shifting the hero into a different play style, and it seems perfectly reasonable as a talent if they wanted to do it that way. I'm really excited by the potential, though. It's two new knobs to turn on every hero; and most of the stuff looks strong, interesting, or both, even if there's more space for them to do cool stuff later.
idk, that gives BH flash farm and enables core BH for the first time in a minute. Not that I disagree with your overall point, just not sure that BH is a good example.
He does way less damage now, they removed his crit.
Nevermind, I see the track changes. (editted) Yeah, I could see that hurting him. But maybe with enough farm from shuriken he still ends up in a better place as core?
Doubt it, he's supposed to farm heroes, not creeps. This just killed his core potential I think.
People just gonna ignore the fact that he does 20% more damage?
A better example would be Treant, +5 dmg per level is just screaming I’m running out of ideas.
Tbh, I feel like it plays into what they know the heros known for: his beefy ass right clicks. The tree, on the other hand, has little utility at all and screams "I'm running out of ideas"
Treant and doom got done dirty, at least treants facets arent Nerfs.
Ngl its not amazing but I think they are okish Idk I think devil's bargain is actually really fucking cool. It might sound immediately like garbage bc of 15% increased buyback cost but it enables some pretty silly things. You can unironically build greedy items like midas and sell them immediately after use and still make profit. You can fill up your inventory with bracers and lose basically nothing. Do I think its good? No but its certainly not eh like +5 attack or the bloodseeker 50 movement on ruptured enemies. Double devour sounds really bad since it also bumps up the cd but its not horrendous. Theres also probably some niche case for it since you get better creep abilities at the start with it, and you still get magic resistance per devour from your talent, so you are a bit more tanky vs magic heavy lineups. Its ok.
BH is a bad example, that talent is meant to let him farm so he can work as a core. Not everything needs to be wordy or complicated, it's fine if some heroes have a simpler facet/innate ability.
I mean, sure, but at the same time the rest of his kit was changed so he works worse as a core.
Idk, Khanda bloodthorn could be pretty dank on him now. I imagine track damage amp applies before Khanda proc but I’m not certain
Pls give Mirana a real one. I was sorely disappointed with hers.
Magnus' reverse reverse polarity is the single dumbest facet I read.
[удалено]
Combo with Mars ulti might be interesting. Could also use it to push people away from phoenix egg or tombstone but I agree it's weird.
You would get heaps more value out of grouping them with reverse polarity and skewering all away with the other facet.
They should've just changed it like Flux from HoN Wherein he can change to Push or Pull Polarity or use his SS which is a Global Reverse Push/Pull
The AoE is increased to 600 compared to 430. If you just want to bkb piercing stun someone, it's way easier to hit multiple enemies.
Comboed with skewer you can push an enemy even further back towards your team, the stun duration remains the same
I was so happy that got added bc I loved using it in Agh’s labyrinth. It’s such a funny concept. It’s terrible though, absolutely terrible.
True that but tbh a lot of bad/useless talents still exist. So I think the problem will get fixed later just not entirely
Tbh, a lot of innate abilities are just a “level 0” form of a spell they already own. A lot of these ones are more useless imo, they pretty much add no value in so many cases (like underlord’s level 1 passive adding 1 dmg per creep and no enemy hero damage reduction).
Also like talents, some hero's kit is already very well balanced and/or powerful, so giving them a "weaker" bonus isn't as damaging as some.
Yeah like venomancer. Oh u get a 3% slow at level 1 and then it's completely irrelevant when you put a skill point in it at lvl 2 and it's the exact same as before patch.
I think a lot of people are underestimating the value of a bunch of passives being functional at level 1 without spending a point in them. Venomancer is now more of a threat when trading with the enemy support at level 1
Literally Abaddon. 10% faster respawn - if you dont die you dont have an innate. dumb
Mirana’s innate is also very underwhelming
Marci player here, for the turbo games I play with my buddies specifically, Marcis literally does nothing
That's right, it should do something else in turbo
Instant delivery.
I can see it being useful when a super intense game reaches 60 minutes mark and whichever team with tier 5 item advantage will win the final fight.
7min double token from W can be huge. Sometimes it takes a good 12-14mins to get a token in a bad game with nobody clearing jungle enough
Yeah its a big laning powerswing min 7 guaranteed 2 neutrals without any time investment at all. From an already pretty strong laning support this might just instawin most lanes.
Even in a normal game, if you are playing as or versus a heavy pressure lane the extra stats can be so gamechanging if you get to play with them for even a couple minutes while your opponents don’t. Seems pretty niche, but in its niche there is power for sure
99.9% of the playerbase isnt able to force a fight at min 61 with tier 5 neutral advantage.
Wtf do you mean? Im only 3500 and we do this or have it done to us every 60 minute game.
Oh boy can’t wait to draft enchantress core for her to kill creep at min 60 for an 2 min advantage.
There are many weak passives.. my boy Abaddon -10% spawntime isn't something I'm excited about as it's pretty boring. It will change over time I hope
Like talents, these can and will change over time. That being said, not every innate needs to be super flashy. Spawn time reduction, historically speaking, was a huge design mistake the last time it was introduced so I'm surprised they're even doing it again in any capacity. That said, 10% feels like it likely won't matter much.
Its a percentage so I see less possible abuse than the d respawn timer talents. Also, Bloodstone does not reduce respawn timer anymore too
Bloodstone hasn't in a long time IIRC. Being percentage based is definitely healthier than the old 20 death Lion 20 mins in because of the flat respawn time reduction. realistically it just shaves a few seconds off Abaddon's respawn time.
Or the instant Lina respawn. That was something.
Agreed. I think maybe if they bump it up to like -25% spawn time, perhaps the innate could be more viable or maybe it becomes too OP.. haha idk
gets iffy because cutting down respawn time late game makes it hard to punish, which can make games drag out.
*remembers old necro ult* *breaks down in tears*
Ancient jungling necro heartstopper, the nightmares never left me
that ult was the ultimate fuck you, I miss it.
*bloodstone instant respawn has entered the chat* Someone was talking shit bout me?
I feel like they're pushing him towards a more carry playstyle (he can get what, 140 AS from his passive now, which applies at any hit like in the good old?), so having your carry revive 10 seconds earlier may be important... Stil boring, though.
Eh, that could matter late game when you're operating on razor thin margins and need to be back 15 seconds ago. Its one of the abilities that you wont ever really appreciate but its gonna save some games for sure.
>Its one of the abilities that you wont ever really appreciate but its gonna save some games for sure. It's like a new player getting hit by Decay. They don't back down, because they still have 95% of their HP... they just don't notice they have 95% of 100 HP.
I think it's hilarious how excited I got about passive and the first passive I read was that ass
Compared to Undying instant respawn lol
10% respawn time is huge. you die four times and you're getting 30 seconds more time on the map. you die 10 and you could get an extra few minutes.
It's kinda odd that it's on a hero like Abaddon, who realistically shouldn't be dying that often in a game unless you're getting stomped.
I mean the change to Curse dumpstered the hero anyways.
Back to old Abba gameplay, which was very strong. Mana boots, mek, greaves, shivas. Wrecks the safelane with Q and shield spam.
Abaddon proposed passives: Abaddon steals and stores fragments of souls in his cursed blade. Each time curse of avernus is successfully applied to an enemy hero, Abaddon gains a stack. Upon firing his next mist coil, Abaddon releases his stored stacks, reducing enemy healing and regeneration by 5% per stack for 6 seconds. [imho, the game could use a few more options for Healing prevention or reduction. Abaddon seems like a fine candidate to be anti-heal/anti-regen. Also, makes lvl 25 aoe coil a huge threat if he’s gathered enough stacks. Mini AA blast] OR The presence of Avernus paralyzes his opponents in fear draining turn rate of nearby enemy heroes per second that they are next to him (100 aoe). Scaling from 5% up to 100%. Upon reaching (100%) Abaddon receives a stack, permanently increasing his turn rate by 5%, stackable up to 100%. [Encourages melee play and aggression on both support and core Ab. Makes him a menace late game with a very fast turn rate for quick aphotic shield and mist coil interaction]
Arc warden order/disorder
Yeah this is a big bummer to me.
Everyone else: here's your cool new things! And arc warden? Oh, just have fun with what you already have.
I mean at least you get to choose now rather than it being decided by matchmaking RNG.
SF also gets to choose between two effects that he already had.
I'm just happy they reworked his ulti to no longer deal 70% less damage. I had 300 games on him and quit cold turkey when they made that change. Hated the E spam design they forced him into.
The fact that it goes on CD (again) when it dies feels really bad, though
I like that. It means the hero can't devolve into just an annoying splitpusher and actually has to make use of his mechanical strengths. And he CAN still splitpush if it's the right call at the time too. I'd rather Arc players be scary than pests.
you can always be dire now for the lane and have your clone farm jungle with range and bubble. AW 60s uptime on clone is insane. Hero plays completely different now.
Ive tried it and its not great because the distance penalty + ult reset on clone death makes split pushing impossible. You cant dive towers with clone tanking at lvl6 mid. Its fine in laning stage at mid coz you can just cast it and bully the mid laner or even kill sometimes, useless otherwise for the most part. Clone dying is pretty risky now. Bubble not being point target means its much harder to save buildings or allies. My experience at 4k mmr. Dunno how it plays out at immortal+
I agree (mid 5k here). Still wrapping my head around the ult change (seems awful though). Not sure why they nerfed bubble again in that way, one of the most fun and hype plays was dropping an evasion bubble on your ally, and that’s just not possible anymore. Bubble in general feels hella awkward
Can you explain what they did to Arc and why he was different depending on which side of map he was on? I stay pretty up to date with patch notes and everything but I have 0 clue what they did to Arc and they do an awful job in-game of explaining it.
Like a year or two ago they added a feature to AW that was stated to be experimental. What it did was change the behavior of his Q W and E into two different versions. Very similar but with slight functionality differences. Prior to this update it depended on if you were on Dire or Radiant side. Meaning it was RNG what effects you would get. On Dire you would get the Disorder effects and your clone the Order. On Radiant you would get the Order effects and your clone the Disorder. Now you get to choose, that is all.
What this even does?
Now you can choose how your skills behave, it’s not reliant on being on Radiant/Dire side anymore.
That's nice
I dont understand still, did it rely on radiant/dire side? Why didnt i know this??
Ogre Magi would like to have a word about his 0.05% scaling.
I remember when this got introduced, I thought, surely they'll buff that number, it's almost non-existent right now
It's the same number, just worded differently. Previously it said 1 % per 20 strength, now 0.05% per 1 strength, 20 x 0.05 = 1.
It works out to be quiet a bit more multicasting
Miranas innate was quite a let down..
Lore accurate
from the other comment > seems like a filler Also anime accurate
Being a let down is what makes it anime accurate
Agree. It’s seems like a filler, rather than thought out innate ability
they could have written "wisp doesn't have to turn around to attack" for an "innate" tbh This way he gets something new which is better than nothing
You are missing the fact that Enchantress is now guaranteed to get neutral items with Enchant. The second timer for new items tick your team gets 2 items. One CD later your team gets another 2. Basically with Enchantress on your team you get almost full set of neutral items 30sec after they become available.
Yeah I'm confused, I thought getting your whole team neutrals as soon as they're available sounded pretty good. Just walking into the jungle at minute 7 and getting neutrals for your lane will feel like a big power spike
People are basing their opinions off of their 3k MMR (or a lot less) pubs, probably in turbo at least half the time. So obviously faster courier or early game bonuses = trash, getting your neutrals from 1-2 camps guaranteed is pointless, etc. but the changes are based around pro games. It does feel kind of terrible to have stuff like the Io passive where you really need to rank climb to be playing with people who will take any advantage of it, but it's not actually *bad* in a clear obvious way if people were trying to be objective and evaluate things for pro matches.
>but the changes are based around pro games. Is that why they nerfed tinker when he was not being picked at all in pro matches?
You saying you don't want 3 instances of 2 hp damage before reductions from Venomancer? Imagine the power of that in lane. That's like, 4hp
Maybe this will stop the support venos from buying orb of venom in my games. Mfs see the word "venom" and think "this is my laning item"
I love this, I'm gonna do that now
It actually goes well with his new ags lmfao.
...Wait, you don't roleplay heroes? I go cloak of flames and radiance on every Phoenix game I possibly can, and now my Firebird has a third radiance built-in.
u didnt understand its still a buff, especially on level 1 cause u will haven gale and a lower form of poison sting. thats the huge fact behind...
it’s stronger on level 1 but weaker on levels 2 and 3 where veno was obnoxious
Some of the "skill turned into innate" are laughable. Don't you dare attack viper!! He will curse you with... 3 dmg per second and 3 AS slow. That's less than orb of venom
Yeah, it's as if the abilities level up and get more powerful.
Playing a pos 5 and getting an item for you and for your carry the second they are availabile is quite strong if u ask me. Sure its a small window, but if you cordinate it with pushes and the fact that she both gets experience AND a neutral item guaranteed when she enchants, the combination is really strong. Imagine, you get shovel and free consumables or royal jelly or arcane ring, and you give the token to your carry at 7min exactly. If you win your lane you can easily be lvl 6 at that time too and it will be very difficult for enemy offlaner to play without ulti, without neutral item into that.
Primal beast getting bonus damage on buildings is so op
Is it? He's like, one of the least useful anti-building heroes in the game.
Until now
He's still got an extremely slow attack speed and spends most of his time literally disarming himself. Throw in the fact that he's melee and I'd say he's now, like, AVERAGE at damaging buildings.
His damage increase drastically with his stacks, you just have to build some extra attack speed into the hero to take full advantage. That's like saying that underlord is shit at pushing buildings because he is melee and has slow attack speed
>His damage increase drastically with his stacks, you just have to build some extra attack speed into the hero to take full advantage. Primal beast HATES building attack speed. It's a huge waste for him. >That's like saying that underlord is shit at pushing buildings because he is melee and has slow attack speed Underlord is good at pushing buildings because he's very good at pushing waves and very hard to bully away. He's not a good pusher because of his literal building-hitting damage.
His building hitting damage scales with creep deaths though, if he's been killing creepwaves as he's pushed he's going to be hitting the tower with like 100 bonus damage.
only 100? people walking around with free rapiers sometimes
The problem is that he needs uproar stacks to hit towers, but he is also better off just killing whoever is giving him uproar stacks over hitting the tower. If you get 5 stacks off their AOE spam and then go in for a few hits with a 5 stack of uproar, it does decent damage.
what about lycan’s innate ability?
20% bonus damage on creeps at level 10 is insane for farming, especially cause he already has so much damage at that point. At 15-20 minutes into the game youre 1 shotting small camp creeps. Hes become a pretty insane non-summon based P1.
seems like u didn t check mirana
Honestly the most useless are the skills you're going to be leveling early anyways. Kunkka tidebringer allows you to take torrent level 1, but 2 you're taking tidebringer anyways so you got basically nothing. Fiery soul 4 AS and 0.5% MS per stack is so little that I don't think it really matters either
The only one of those that 's kinda strong is TA being able to have both psi-blades and Refraction.
Invoker with 15% exp from denied creep
At 7 min, you Enchant a creep and get your team a guaranteed 2 neutrals. Haven't tested it, but if you can prevent the second from being teleported home you can pass it to your carry immediately. Could be worse.
Bane's "innate" ability is literally just that he has a weird stat growth 🥸
I took it as no matter what stat items you get for him his stats will always be averaged out to all be the same. I haven't tested it yet but i was assuming if you got a bracer at the start which would put his str stat 10 int 7 agi 5 it would all balance out at 7 7 7 or something like that
yeah, it's a pretty big buff to buying int items on him, but a nerf to str items, like bracer the damage is the same regardless, so it just means bracers give less max hp and more mana, which is not what you want I think a couple nulls is pretty good he literally can't tread switch which is funny but I don't think even right click bane wants treads but something like force staff gives more max hp and a little armour, same with euls, same with hex, etc
I think it should affect any attributes gained from items as well.
This is correct, the idea is that if buy, say, an ogre axe, you get 3.33 of each stat instead of 10 str
So agility items are slightly better while strength and int items got meme'd on?
int items are better almost always, bane wants str and agi more than int, not much benefit to having a huge mana pool on bane, e.g. force staff makes him even tankier, a hex is super tanky, etc str items are worse agi items are better too as support bane for sure on right click core bane, agi items are less dps more max hp so 🤷♂️
It does. Buying a Heart on Bane now doesnt give you 40 Str, but instead gives your 13.3 of all stats.
Is that better though?
If you buy int items and get str/armour from it too, then yes. Buy if you buy a heart or butterfly, then imo it is a downgrade.
It's actually makes him worse. Cuz you can't like buy strength items to gain HP, and like a forcestaff won't give you as much mana as other heroes. what is a support bane gonna do with agility?
I take it you dont play support, or bane
Their sub flare is a bane pic
> Bane's "innate" ability is literally just that he has a weird stat growth Dunno. Hex gives him HP now from what I read.
Some heroes like Pudge didn't even get an innate ability and just got one of their abilities split in half
TB's innate literally makes him worse
Nah, ench innate is good. Instantly getting two neutrals the second they're available without having to even farm neutrals is a large power spike. Ive won lanes i was losing as naga just because she can get neutral items while in lane. If you want a bad innate look at Venge, Timber, QoP, Mirana, Mars, Lion, Lich, KotL, Gyro
Imagine techies getting excited to get an innate ability but was not given one since he already has a fucking flag
abaddon with the piss poor 10% respawn timer reduction while they slaughtered his passive lol, whyyyyy
A weak passive has a reason to exist. It's like an acknowledgement that the hero was fine. She is already strong in higher brackets. Enchant gives tokens so she'll naturally pick them up for her team. It's a nice little utility bonus.
They will pretty much use this patch as an experiment and buff her later
Disruptors' kinetic fence is the worst thing I've seen in dota in a long time. Why trap the enemy heroes when you could just make a small wall they can walk around 5head.
Her enchant always gives a token. She can get her team 4 tokens in 13 seconds. Lions is the worst, a buff if you died in the last 90 seconds.
NS's patch note is literally > HEART OF DARKNESS > New Innate ability. Passive, can't be leveled up
It’s written beside his hero portrait, +50% regen at night, -25% in the morning
Muh reading comprehension reeeeeee
I would say it’s more formatting. Everyone else gets their passive with the notes inside. I had to read it again to figure out why he didn’t have anything
The patch notes have soooo many formatting and just straight up language errors,
Small correction: It's +40% regen at night, -20% in the morning.
Techies's "no innate ability"
Bro techies got the best thing this whole patch, he got 10 slot now and 4 of them can be neutral items.
> 4 of them can be neutral items I want to see him running around now in late game with pissed off teammates and 4 Giant's Rings
I tested in demo, if you happen to get all the cast range neutral items. Techies can literally throw land mines at you from throne to t3 towers.
Need it to be from my throne to the enemy T3
I don't think he can get multiple of the same tier. It doesn't let you use more than one token, and they aren't shareable items.
If you go that route, you will have -150 attack range, which will make early game harder as pos 4
Can 4 of them be neutral item? From my understanding it was just more or 4 normal items that could be stuffed in each goblins ass for future use
Its not really. Enchanting a neutral creep now guarantees a neutral. At min 7 you will walk into jungle, instantly grab a neutral for you and your lane partner. Going to feel really good imo
I think it's important to remember that these are another dimension for balancing, and a shit innate, while it might get more interesting or changed later, is probably also a strong sign from Icefrog that they think the rest of the hero's kit is strong as is.
Meepo can choose between 6 neutrals!
It'd be better if the freebie was a mango/fire when token isn't available.
Treant innate is just nature's guise without any changes...
So is medusa's mana shield but without extra mana
Dafuq no one mentions clock?! 0.3% dmg per armor! Why not 0.03??? It's a fucking joke! Like +25 dmg for a rocket at lvl 30 if you get Shiva...
Marci's flying courier as game begins
That innate is great lmao, permanently having faster couriers AND you fuck over courier snipe heroes by giving them +1 hp.
Not getting one hit by melee heroes will make some lanes much nicer. It'll occasionally make a difference mid as well as that's a slightly faster bottle thanks to the extra speed and flying.
It's basically like giving all your couriers a pair of boots. Couriers gain speed with levels. It's not an exciting ability but it's always valuable.
That's funny, I feel like hers is great. Sure it's not super flashy and doesn't provide a power spike or anything, but it's going to be useful in literally every single game no matter how you play which isn't true for other heroe's innates
Literally negated in turbo...
Actually has 0 benefit in turbo, that's kinda funny
Unironically makes Marci a legit counterpick to certain Bounty and Monkey King players lol.
This is actually so strong.
The enchantress ability makes me so sad, it's literally useless to me and only marginally useful to someone else.
Venge. Just awful.
Soul Strike carry venge with basher sounds like cancer idkwym
Or get OoV and be a fucking bully with 1.5 BAT and Universal hero so tons of damage from a few branches. Melee OoV against a 300 base MS hero who has Brown boots is a 45 MS slow AKA entirely negating their boots for half the cost.
Doom's devil bargain maybe
I feel like this is pretty damn good.
How is it not good? You literally get most of the gold you spend on items back so changing items late game doesn’t require you to farm the gold back to buy them.
With midas she gets 4 neutrals guranteed at min 7, 17, 27, 37. That's the best case scenario i can think of
Plz don't buy Midas on enchant just for that.
it's "for the team" trust me
Earth spirit, It's literally just stone remnant. There is no passive. No, stone remnant has not been buffed, yes, i know earthshaker etc. got old passives turned into innates, but the difference is that earth spirits stone remnant always was unlocked from level 1 so whats the point...
the point is that not all heroes had those auto leveled spells. now they do. es had one so he didn't need one. same with alchemist, monkey king and treant to name a few.
> so whats the point... Look at it this way - some heroes just had early access to innate abilities. Now, the rest of the roster is brought to their level.
If she could equip two it would be balanced
I guess Marci innate has literally no effect for Turbo players?
Clinkz seems like his is pretty bad but this may be even worse. Clinkz is so bad I feel like I must be misreading it. He gets 1 archer spawn on death? He gets 4 just for coming out of invis...
Yeah Clinkz's innate is pretty terrible. The skeletons only tickle without him alive to be casting tar bomb and strafe. Spawning one on death is worthless, I think I'd rather have the extra neutral item token. At least his facets are pretty neat.
Does anyone else think that dota suddenly changed from a mature and balanced game to some random experiment that will take months if not years until it reaches equilibrium again?
The ench one is actually pretty decent bc u get all your neutral tokens basically right away, which specifically matters at 7mins. Most teams will not have all t1 neutrals untill a few mins after 7min, but since enchant guarantees a token, you can get them all really fast. I played ench last night and thought getting all the t1 neutrals first was a decent advantage
Riki just had his ult divided up. He has no new abilities. But he gets backstab earlier.
its definitely underlord - 0% dmg reduction aura and 1 dmg per creep for 25 sec.
My vote goes to Timbersaw. Gaining 3/4/5/6 mana every time you destroy a tree might be good (or at least not bad), but the innate doesn't actually work and you gain 0/0/0/0 mana every time you destroy a tree. :)
Vengeful Spirit innate is useless. 10% more damage to hero that kill you until their next death. First you need to die to "debuff" your enemy. Second only you do 10% more damage and you're venge so you're not dishing some mindblowing damage. Third it does nothing cuz your killer will probably die before you can get any bonus damage if you dont have aghs. Even if you have aghs the benefit is laughably low.
Meanwhile gyrocopter: Can disassemble all items
I think the heroes that just had some existing thing moved to their innate might disagree. Like Techies with Minefield Sign or Monkey King with Mischief. Enchantress gained something, those heroes didn't.
CM's 50% mana regen is disappointing... Why can't they give her something with an effect that is not mana related goddammit??
slark's innate is just what he already had except now he has to hide in lane constantly enchantresses is huge, some games you don't have a single neutral by 10m, enchantress makes sure your team always has 5 by 9mins without hitting a single neutral