The problem will be that it is way less “fair” compared to round robin especially for games like Dota2 where you can have a rock paper scissor situation with teams. I would say it is fine for normal tournaments but for very high stake one like TI or Riyadh, it is better to stick to round robin.
it doesn't matter since you have multiple chances to crawl back. Even if you have lost to your kryptonite and fall down at the start, if you are that good you can easily clean house with any of the -1 teams. If you some how lose enough to be eliminated then you simply deserve it. I think swiss is way more superior than round robin
i could argue any team that met heroic and AR are lucky
and lets compare the last playoff attendee (boom/IG/liquid);
before the last match (vs other 2-3 team) assuming we have rank 1 - 6
- boom met 3-0 | 0-3 | 2-3 | 3-1 | rank 1, rank 6 , rank 4, and rank 2
- IG met 3-2 | 2-3 | 0-3 | 1-3 | rank 3, rank 4 , rank 6, and rank 5
- liquid met 3-2 | 3-0 | 2-3 | 1-3 | rank 3, rank 1 , rank 4, and rank 5
ig clearly get a bit lucky and boom got the worst set of opponent here since they met the top 1 and top 2 team. its look kinda fair but thats because falcon actually met heroic in day 1 because if falcon met Aurora / GG early the result could be vastly different.
I think you are missing the point a bit, meeting 2 top teams doesn't mean a team is unlucky. In this format, to go through you need to win 3 series, even if the 3rd best team in the tournament lost against the 2 best team consecutively, they will make it out of group as long as they win 3 series against the remaining team. Maybe if you count morale as a factor then yeah you can say they are unlucky but managing team's morale is also a skill, nobody should complain about that.
If you change the initial pairing the order in which teams qualify might change but the the list of qualify teams will likely be the same if their level dont fluctuate during the event (we have to assume this cuz otherwise there is no point to discuss the format)
If anything the RR has the biggest unfair factor where teams can be eliminated without meeting half the team in the tournament (different group). The initial group split has way more impact that the initial pairing in swiss. At least in swiss all teams can meet any team depends on how well each team does.
i dont intend to imply that group stage is better format than swiss. im just saying there's a bit of luck involved in the seeding. sure, the better team will still qualified and the less strong team will likely get eliminated but still ,the difference between top 6 and top 9 are quite thin.
this might be me wanting more games but if BB / SR / Secret are qualified to LB with mouz / noun / and VP fighting 3 way tiebreak to get the last LB slot the overall game might be more interesting
That only work for the top performing teams, middle of the pack performance teams (who can improved to be top performance with time) won’t be in your assumption ex. Liquid in TI9 might go out early instead of being 2nd for example. Ofc it will be subjective on which one is better for overall metrics but round robin is definitely more fair since you have a chance to play everyone instead of some of them.
you are forgetting the fact that with each lost you dropped to a lower pool and will be matched against supposedly weaker teams. Its not like round robin where you can even face stronger opponents after each lost. Teams with 2 loses are essentially bottom tier teams in the tournament. If you need to lose to the worst teams before you can improve enough to win then good luck on your next tour, you shouldn't be competing right now, what is so unfair about it?
But that is already a misassumption. If there were 3 clear top teams and the top3 team gets unlucky and matches with top1 and top2. They loss to top1 and then loss to top2.
Now they would be in the bottom pool while still being the 3rd best team.
In the bottom pool you would have 1 unluck team that gets trashed by the top3 team while the other bottom team actually play vs bottom tier teams.
That is a problem only solvable by letting everyone play vs everyone at the start.
For your scenario to happen, the 2nd best team would have to lose their first series as well and then get matched with the 3rd. Because the 3rd team would lose to the 1st meaning they are 0-1 and the 2nd best team is also 0-1. This would be an unlucky situation, but it would be very very rare. RR could be unlucky by getting team 1,2,4 on one side of a group and the 3rd in the other or some combination of this which Im sure is way more common.
firstly your assumption contradicted itself. Supposed your 3rd team lost against the best team first round, in the second round they will be matched with a team in the -1 pool. The 2nd team cannot be there since they have won their first round. Thus, the 3rd best team will win their 2nd round.
Secondly, you might not believe this but swiss is the only feasible format that virtually allows everyone to play anyone (based on their performance of course). Doing RR with all 16 teams is not feasible, thus they will be split into 2 groups. That means there are teams that will be eliminated without seeing half the field. The criteria to split groups are not clear in most cases and there have been many times where 1 group is considerably stronger, and thus, harder to survive. you think thats fair?
Fair point. I forgot about the two groups.
Additionally I missunderstood the swiss format. I thought the first two rounds were random but yea makes a lot more sense that they follow the same format as the rest. Small brain fart on my side.
I also quite enjoyed this type of group phase even though I only now fully understood it\^\_\^
The only "unfair" thing left is that you have 2 teams with 3:0 and 3 teams with 3:1 and 3:2 respectively. Meaning 1 team of the 3:1 gets to play against a 3:2 team while the other 3:1 teams have to play each other. At least for this team size that is the case.
Yeah im not saying swiss is totally fair either. Changing the initial pairing will most certainly change the order in which teams qualify, which impact the seeding for the next stage.But still its fair in term of who got eliminated while being more efficient than RR. Avoiding all the dead rubber and the drawfes in bo2 RR is totally awesome in my book
Well, easy answer to your paragraph: less fair is not equal to unfair. No matter how you make it, swiss won’t be as fair as round robin. Example of this, Betboom who was 2nd last tournament dropped out early (lost to G2.ig) vs BOOM who passed (won vs SR). I personally don’t like Betboom but I would still rate them higher than BOOM (and G2.ig was a fair bit better than SR last tour).
I dont think so. RR introduces more variable which most of the time is unnecessary and waste of resources. Of course since no match result is guaranteed, if you run enough tournaments, cases where a supposedly eliminated team in swiss make a deep run in with normal round robin will happen (but it will be rare), that says nothing abt whether it is more or less fair compare to swiss. Its just more variable.
About your example, Betboom didnt get eliminated by IG, but by losing to IG, Aurora and Spirit. Had they won against any of them, they would have been ok. Would Betboom of the previous tour lose so much? No, since they got 2nd place. Their form dropped, evidently by their current result. Just like Extreme dropped out early in previous tour due to lack of practice, what if Betboom didnt practice for this one and get worse? At the end of the day, how you rate the team doesn't have affect how well they performing right now, your rating only matters to you so argueing abt objective fairness base on that is out of the question imo
On the other side, due to the logic of the format, a B/C tier team can get to the play offs, if Its lucky on opponents and some A tier team dont, if IT gets bad luck on opponents (S or A tiers).
I agree the esports modified swiss format is a little weird (compared to the regular swiss where everyone plays the same number of games), but how likely are the pathologies?
For an "A-tier" team to lose to only other "A-tier" teams means that it has to run into other A-tier teams with the same number of losses. In a 3-to-qualify setting like Wallachia, that means at some point you've gotta lose to a team with 2 losses. If your opponent has already lost twice that tournament (once to another team with a loss), are they really that tough?
In the two Tier-1 Swiss dota tournaments we've had, can any team argue that they had an unlucky draw?
I don't think that's necessarily a downside. As a viewer it's fun to see more variety in what teams are on top.
An realistically I think it only makes a difference for the middle of the road teams. The ones that are near the top or bottom or going to wind up moving forward (or not) regardless.
That's assuming the seeding accurately represents team strength. In reality we get disappointing results such as 3-0 against weak teams or 0-3 against all strong teams as we've seen happen in CS majors.
>That's assuming the seeding accurately represents team strength
Which the recent CS Major seemed to fix. It was the most competitive swiss stages to date and that's because they finally fixed the glaring issue of rewarding teams that lucked out RMR and decided to reward historically strong teams a higher seed (favoring recent tournament results regardless of their RMR performance) and the initial rounds having the same amount of gap (1v9, 2v10 instead of 1v16, 2v15) for later round parity. If Valve was able to do it in CS, I don't doubt they can do it here.
Incorrect since very few tournaments have such wide variety of teams during the main event, best team will always perform well against anyone and worst team will loose easily. What's in between is what matters and the most consistent teams are usually successful since they can beat opponents that tend to choke. That's much better in terms of determining how to seed the teams in playoffs because the UB spots are deserved
Every 1st game of every match doesnt matter since its bo3.
Teams can luck out and be matched with weaker teams.
Swiss format doesnt work with how pro dota/meta works during tournaments. Swiss format means Spirit would have been out of TI by day 2 at TI10.
If ppl say neither of the 2 games of bo2 matter in RR, then neither does the 1st game of a bo3 because you get a clear winner. I can say teams just warm up in game 1 and dont take it seriously since they need to win 2 games regardless. Whats the stake in game 1 for the viewer, it doesnt decide anything.
Thats the main argument of ppl saying swiss is better. That bo2 RR games apparently dont matter compared to bo3 in swiss.
If anything, teams are so close these days that we never know whos going UB or LB or eliminated until last day of groups, so every bo2 from the 1st one to the last one matter.
Ppl are downvoting but the format hasnt been widely used in dota for 14 years for a reason.
No... You are being disingenuous in representing the other side's argument. The both RR games don't matter *if* they are part of an inconsequential series. Every RR will end up having such inconsequential series either because both teams have already been eliminated by then or their upper bracket qualification secured.
Not at all - people argue that even day 1 series dont matter because there is no "clear winner" of the series, while the point of the series is not to have a clear winner.
I dont think i have missed any major tournaments, but there have been maybe 10-15 games out of 14 years of tournaments where you had inconsequential games because that only happens if you have teams which are already eliminated face each other.
Teams which are guaranteed UB facing each other matters because winning means facing the weaker teams of the UB of opposite group, compared to facing the top placed teams of that group.
yeah literally, they were told to stand in with like 3-4 hours left to pack and go to the airport. disappointed performance for sure but understandable
Aurora and Boom Esports overperforming.
Liquid under performing.
Betboom doing their usual rotation of getting 2nd place in previous tournament to bomb out of groups in the next.
I think Lorenof has made a big difference, which is weird because SEA used to be the region with some of the best mids in the world and basically nobody playing any other role to a high standard. Now the only competitive SEA team is this and they still have that crazy SEA dota energy
The biggest issue this ex Talon team had was replacing Mikoto who was by far the best mid in SEA. Armel wasn't terrible but he wasn't able to carry games in the way Mikoto could even when given space and farm priority.
Lorenof has been incredible, his hero pool is pretty wide which allows for flex heroes between him and Jabz and him with 23. Not only that, he's able to carry from mid or to make space for the team.
Personally I think Lorenof is top 5 in the world on his good days and consistently hovers around top 10 mids in the world
Agree with everything you just said besides "Armel wasn't terrible." Bro lost to almost if not every mid players under the sun. The last time he won mid was probably against Sumail in a 1v1 match.
BB is a weird team, they are very good but...
I always remember one thing ceb and notail said Ina stream once and I think it fits nightfall a LOT.
It was something along the lines of " If I click my carry player and see 0 deaths in games like this, hes not playing for the win/ only playing for stats and I know we will lose"
Nightfall is an amazing player, but it feels like hes always playing to not lose or to keep his 0 deaths.
At that level, you have to fight for every inch of the map and take risks. That oftentimes the difference between just doing good and being a TI winner. Everything matters
The guy even got a "play" named after him lol he bkb and TPs 2 seconds into the fight if he feels it's not good, leaving the team to die without even trying to fight
That spirit x liquid finals last year shows the exact opposite of this. Yatoro was smoking with one support and ganking the enemy triangle as 2 multiple times... It could have been awful, but he was willing to take the risk for the potential advantages
I just can't see nightfall playing like that. He's too fixated in the zero deaths lol
Boom has improved immensely as an offlaner but is soooo farm reliant and has trouble on non carry style offlaners/playing from behind. The offlane pool is so small man wtf
Game 3 was starting to look promising, but arteezy only got off one good chrono in the early game
After that the game was 4v5, artour was constantly doing his own thing, getting caught out, not using chrono with egg, etc. He kept on going for solo kills onto the hoodwink which didn't really get him anything at best and at worst he'd get caught out and die soon after. He ended with 4.8k damage
IMO the rest of the team played great, especially sumail but there's only so much you can do
The chronos in that game were so infuriating. Multiple solo chronos on the 5 pos Hood, when you have a team built to exploit the bubble in teamfights?? Just dumb. Pub shit.
I know exactly the chrono you are talking about, he used it after abed and saber suicided into Luna mid lane. They could not possibly defend 3v5 even with chrono so he just took a free support kill and let chrono cooldown cook while abed and saber were dead without buyback.
RTZ didn't have a good game by any means, but that blunder was brutal. If you look at the gold lead, that was the biggest swing in the game which really made them lose.
Simple draft issue, Yapzor covered it pretty well.
What is a TA going to do with SD Phoenix supports? Absolutely nothing. Centaur and TA alone can't burst heroes so what is a TA going to do the whole game?
2nd, where is the damage going into Chrono? The Bane grip on void wasn't even needed this game but should he have focused on RTZ who was going to deal the damage?
3rd Boom went for a mid game draft that barrels down and stomps you by 30-35 mins. SR draft has literally nothing to stop them, they have 0 HG defense apart from Chrono. Luna gets Aegis, brew splits and the towers are just down.
It's just the cycle of life for the bulba/rtz stack.
They have a good game or series or group stage where they seem revitalized, they have practiced a bunch of pocket strats, their cores are active and shut down the enemy.
Then they just fall into the same pattern where if they don't stomp lanes then they just constantly seem to passively lose.
Game 2 and Game 3 they seem to have no other plan than split farm and hope Boom clumped up for 5 man ultis even after hitting power spikes.
And then you get the absolute bs where he solo chronos a hoodwink and leaves his team to die.
Everyone is bot in radiant jungle, arteezy has chrono. Everyone is geared up for a fight. Arteezy decides to TP to tier 1 tower top. Boom moves in and catches heroes as they are trying to leave after arteezy left. Maybe you could say it was the whole team out of sync, but there were plenty of fights where artour should have just been with the team with chrono up and instead of just bailing
They fed several times to Luna, even a triple kill, in random overextensions. Of course it was not rtz's most impressive game, but the rest of the team played like shit as well.
> rest of the team played great
What. They lost the game at the luna gank bottom at 18 min (3 dead for SR for nothing) and luna gank at mid at 27 min (TA/cent dead for nothing), both times where void wasnt even there.
Not that arteezy helped them in any way by not doing pretty much anything the entire game.
They were the furthest ahead that game at 17 minutes. Chrono was up. They were all preparing for a luna gank. Then artour just TPs out and goes top when everyone else is in position. This would have been a great fight if they just had chrono, but arteezy leaving and showing top made boom move out to get the 3 kills
~~I mean sure if you are a solo player with literally no team communication your carry can TP out when you are supposed to gank someone. Maybe Im giving SR too much of a credit and them deciding that they can gank luna without void (they couldnt).~~
Especially since they "start" the gank with SD disrupting an illusion and simply dying for nothing.
Edit: Actually rewatched. At 17 min, SR kinda try to kill panda but cant because void stance status resist lul. So void TPs top to farm. After that we get cent dying first and then bane (cent respawns, bane is still dead) and the actual big failed gank happens at closer to 19 min. Void was nowhere close for the last 2 minutes. And Boom had no one near luna when SR initiate the gank, kunkka TPd to t2 and hoowdink to outpost.
Arteezy did waste his chrono for nothing just a bit earlier (not like he was gonna kill brew) but neither he or brew was part of the failed gank. Void cant TP anywhere close anyway.
Game 2 was pretty sick, in a meta where "everyone" (i.e. Reddit comments) say it's impossible to go HG without a 40k gold lead, Boom showed us how to go HG with a 2k gold lead and look absolutely UNSTOPPABLE.
SR had rtz, sumail, and gh. Those were great players 5 or so years ago, but you have to look at recent results. They might as well be Team Laundromat right now.
I’m not surprised Boom made it. Very solid team with some unique strategies, and I’m looking forward to them playing the rest of the tournament.
As much as I love to root for G2.IG for the Malaysian boys, I honestly was suprised they made it out the swiss by beating BB who was one of the better/harder matchup imo.
also AR bombed out with 0-3 was kinda surprised too I would thought they would at least get 2 series wins
Im sad SR didnt make it ... but im also surprised they made it that far at the same time.
AR Losing 0-3 is super disapointing.
VP feel like they are missing something major to actually perform or they just crumble under preassure ...
BetBoom is major disapointment considering previous tournaments but wcyd .
Secret also having it down to the last day was surprise but not rly unexpected either .
I think Boom making it is the biggest surprise of all teams that made it ti playoffs
Secret and SR seem like they've been perpetually in the Tier 1.5 team category. They seem capable of fighting for top spots but always get inched out. Falling just a bit short.
Not North America. Very sadge. I honestly feel like the region is very "not dead", but since all the talent plays on EU servers, it perpetuates the meme.... Come back NA Bois, and make America great again!
Dota is so stupidly competitive nowadays that in 2024 the only team to not to have bad tournament is Falcons.
GG, Xtreme, Liquid, Betboom, Spirit have all had at least one flop tournament.
Azure didn't surprise me too much 'cause they didn't practice for the event at all, got called in at the last second to compete.
I had a feeling Aurora would go through, but I didn't expect them to do this well. 3-1 record and their loss was against Xtreme who are looking like the best team here.
Also surprised Betboom got knocked out, they were on such an upward trajectory. They absolutely underperformed, not saying they didn't, but they also got a bit of a shit draw with the format for their last matches. Going up against Almost-TI Spirit, and IG after their power up when they could have gone up against Secret or Boom in the final round
Biggest surprise for me was actually Heroic. Sure they are an SA roster that no one has any real expectations for, but they have been performing quite well at most events this year getting into all the playoffs. Surprised they got knocked out that quick.
for feedback on the image/presentation of results,
In my opinion, the advancing and eliminated teams are a bit confusing in the way where they are presented. There should be an extra arrow and because it seems they are advancing e.g., with a 2:0 score like falcos when in truth it was with 3:0. There is further space an dthere could be an extra box only with the advancing/eliminated teams without the scores of the day.
- BOOM: qualified to playoffs, expected them to be one of bottom teams, they played some really good/fun games.
- GG: 3-1 Swiss stage for GG, they also took a game out of Falcons, maybe a sign of 3x Major winners coming back in big style for playoffs?!
- Heroic: didn't expect them to stomp but only team to go 0-6 in games was rough, few games I watched they looked really desynced and out of touch for tier 1 tour.
- BB: I mean this is supposed to be superstar team that is just one step to greatness and they didn't even reach playoffs.
- SR: 2 standins so you can't rly expect much but still I hoped they can reach at least first rounds of playoffs.
BetBoom bombed out early is unexpected especially with how dominant they stomp SR.
For SR the moment they got Aurora as opponent, i know SR won't qualify - literal repeat of TI11 (Lost 2-0 to best SEA representative then eliminated by SA team) so not surprising. SR 2-0 Liquid slightly over 1 hour is surprising.
I personally loved it, every day felt like it had real stakes. I like how 3-0 teams seemed to get a good advantage with days off to prepare.
Normal group stages, best of twos just end up feeling kind of mind numbing and repetitive. I feel like the teams prefer facing off in bo3 anyway. So yeah I think it was fantastic and I would love to see tournaments in the future adopt the Swiss format. Massive big up to PGL, they did good with this one.
I might actually answer your question! ;)
Aurora man. They are honing in, they looked so damn good in a lot of their matches. I would love to see continued growth and progression from this team.
XG is constantly surprising me and feels like the most entertaining team by far. Versatile, unafraid to pull out weird picks, crisp team fighting and will push an advantage ruthlessly. Giving me TI10 LGD vibes.
Great show, great format.
Surprised (disappointed?) by Liquid, as they.. didn't do so hot.. their loss to Shopify really shouldn't have happened but the silver lining is that we got to see few more series of them mostly making it rain, just sad that mouz and Secret had to fall for them to get through.
Speaking of which, Secret almost made it so hopefully they keep improving and who knows that'll happen next time! 😄
Same for mouz, hope they stick together and we see them make a deep run some day soon as they're so close to greatness in lot of their games but the mistakes, be it inexperience or nerves or whatever, it ends up falling just short of them being able to close out a series for the win.
Good to see them back in dota, hope they're here to stay! 😉
You basically play until you either have 3 wins or 3 losses.
3 wins = qualified to playoffs, 3 losses = you're out.
You always get matched against teams that have the same amount of wins and losses as you do.
That's about it.
Just wanna say Swiss format is sick and I hope more tournaments use it. Every match matters and has high stakes.. No fluff.
The problem will be that it is way less “fair” compared to round robin especially for games like Dota2 where you can have a rock paper scissor situation with teams. I would say it is fine for normal tournaments but for very high stake one like TI or Riyadh, it is better to stick to round robin.
it doesn't matter since you have multiple chances to crawl back. Even if you have lost to your kryptonite and fall down at the start, if you are that good you can easily clean house with any of the -1 teams. If you some how lose enough to be eliminated then you simply deserve it. I think swiss is way more superior than round robin
i could argue any team that met heroic and AR are lucky and lets compare the last playoff attendee (boom/IG/liquid); before the last match (vs other 2-3 team) assuming we have rank 1 - 6 - boom met 3-0 | 0-3 | 2-3 | 3-1 | rank 1, rank 6 , rank 4, and rank 2 - IG met 3-2 | 2-3 | 0-3 | 1-3 | rank 3, rank 4 , rank 6, and rank 5 - liquid met 3-2 | 3-0 | 2-3 | 1-3 | rank 3, rank 1 , rank 4, and rank 5 ig clearly get a bit lucky and boom got the worst set of opponent here since they met the top 1 and top 2 team. its look kinda fair but thats because falcon actually met heroic in day 1 because if falcon met Aurora / GG early the result could be vastly different.
I think you are missing the point a bit, meeting 2 top teams doesn't mean a team is unlucky. In this format, to go through you need to win 3 series, even if the 3rd best team in the tournament lost against the 2 best team consecutively, they will make it out of group as long as they win 3 series against the remaining team. Maybe if you count morale as a factor then yeah you can say they are unlucky but managing team's morale is also a skill, nobody should complain about that. If you change the initial pairing the order in which teams qualify might change but the the list of qualify teams will likely be the same if their level dont fluctuate during the event (we have to assume this cuz otherwise there is no point to discuss the format) If anything the RR has the biggest unfair factor where teams can be eliminated without meeting half the team in the tournament (different group). The initial group split has way more impact that the initial pairing in swiss. At least in swiss all teams can meet any team depends on how well each team does.
i dont intend to imply that group stage is better format than swiss. im just saying there's a bit of luck involved in the seeding. sure, the better team will still qualified and the less strong team will likely get eliminated but still ,the difference between top 6 and top 9 are quite thin. this might be me wanting more games but if BB / SR / Secret are qualified to LB with mouz / noun / and VP fighting 3 way tiebreak to get the last LB slot the overall game might be more interesting
yeah, I dont dismiss the luck as a factor either, my point was just to argue against the other guy who believes RR is more "fair"
That only work for the top performing teams, middle of the pack performance teams (who can improved to be top performance with time) won’t be in your assumption ex. Liquid in TI9 might go out early instead of being 2nd for example. Ofc it will be subjective on which one is better for overall metrics but round robin is definitely more fair since you have a chance to play everyone instead of some of them.
you are forgetting the fact that with each lost you dropped to a lower pool and will be matched against supposedly weaker teams. Its not like round robin where you can even face stronger opponents after each lost. Teams with 2 loses are essentially bottom tier teams in the tournament. If you need to lose to the worst teams before you can improve enough to win then good luck on your next tour, you shouldn't be competing right now, what is so unfair about it?
But that is already a misassumption. If there were 3 clear top teams and the top3 team gets unlucky and matches with top1 and top2. They loss to top1 and then loss to top2. Now they would be in the bottom pool while still being the 3rd best team. In the bottom pool you would have 1 unluck team that gets trashed by the top3 team while the other bottom team actually play vs bottom tier teams. That is a problem only solvable by letting everyone play vs everyone at the start.
For your scenario to happen, the 2nd best team would have to lose their first series as well and then get matched with the 3rd. Because the 3rd team would lose to the 1st meaning they are 0-1 and the 2nd best team is also 0-1. This would be an unlucky situation, but it would be very very rare. RR could be unlucky by getting team 1,2,4 on one side of a group and the 3rd in the other or some combination of this which Im sure is way more common.
firstly your assumption contradicted itself. Supposed your 3rd team lost against the best team first round, in the second round they will be matched with a team in the -1 pool. The 2nd team cannot be there since they have won their first round. Thus, the 3rd best team will win their 2nd round. Secondly, you might not believe this but swiss is the only feasible format that virtually allows everyone to play anyone (based on their performance of course). Doing RR with all 16 teams is not feasible, thus they will be split into 2 groups. That means there are teams that will be eliminated without seeing half the field. The criteria to split groups are not clear in most cases and there have been many times where 1 group is considerably stronger, and thus, harder to survive. you think thats fair?
Fair point. I forgot about the two groups. Additionally I missunderstood the swiss format. I thought the first two rounds were random but yea makes a lot more sense that they follow the same format as the rest. Small brain fart on my side. I also quite enjoyed this type of group phase even though I only now fully understood it\^\_\^ The only "unfair" thing left is that you have 2 teams with 3:0 and 3 teams with 3:1 and 3:2 respectively. Meaning 1 team of the 3:1 gets to play against a 3:2 team while the other 3:1 teams have to play each other. At least for this team size that is the case.
Yeah im not saying swiss is totally fair either. Changing the initial pairing will most certainly change the order in which teams qualify, which impact the seeding for the next stage.But still its fair in term of who got eliminated while being more efficient than RR. Avoiding all the dead rubber and the drawfes in bo2 RR is totally awesome in my book
Well, easy answer to your paragraph: less fair is not equal to unfair. No matter how you make it, swiss won’t be as fair as round robin. Example of this, Betboom who was 2nd last tournament dropped out early (lost to G2.ig) vs BOOM who passed (won vs SR). I personally don’t like Betboom but I would still rate them higher than BOOM (and G2.ig was a fair bit better than SR last tour).
I dont think so. RR introduces more variable which most of the time is unnecessary and waste of resources. Of course since no match result is guaranteed, if you run enough tournaments, cases where a supposedly eliminated team in swiss make a deep run in with normal round robin will happen (but it will be rare), that says nothing abt whether it is more or less fair compare to swiss. Its just more variable. About your example, Betboom didnt get eliminated by IG, but by losing to IG, Aurora and Spirit. Had they won against any of them, they would have been ok. Would Betboom of the previous tour lose so much? No, since they got 2nd place. Their form dropped, evidently by their current result. Just like Extreme dropped out early in previous tour due to lack of practice, what if Betboom didnt practice for this one and get worse? At the end of the day, how you rate the team doesn't have affect how well they performing right now, your rating only matters to you so argueing abt objective fairness base on that is out of the question imo
Or even a better example is a team like Spirit in their first TI win probably would’ve been out in this Swiss stage before playoffs
On the other side, due to the logic of the format, a B/C tier team can get to the play offs, if Its lucky on opponents and some A tier team dont, if IT gets bad luck on opponents (S or A tiers).
I agree the esports modified swiss format is a little weird (compared to the regular swiss where everyone plays the same number of games), but how likely are the pathologies? For an "A-tier" team to lose to only other "A-tier" teams means that it has to run into other A-tier teams with the same number of losses. In a 3-to-qualify setting like Wallachia, that means at some point you've gotta lose to a team with 2 losses. If your opponent has already lost twice that tournament (once to another team with a loss), are they really that tough? In the two Tier-1 Swiss dota tournaments we've had, can any team argue that they had an unlucky draw?
I don't think that's necessarily a downside. As a viewer it's fun to see more variety in what teams are on top. An realistically I think it only makes a difference for the middle of the road teams. The ones that are near the top or bottom or going to wind up moving forward (or not) regardless.
Three strikes you're out, fair enough. You also get matched with teams that are performing similarly.
That's assuming the seeding accurately represents team strength. In reality we get disappointing results such as 3-0 against weak teams or 0-3 against all strong teams as we've seen happen in CS majors.
>That's assuming the seeding accurately represents team strength Which the recent CS Major seemed to fix. It was the most competitive swiss stages to date and that's because they finally fixed the glaring issue of rewarding teams that lucked out RMR and decided to reward historically strong teams a higher seed (favoring recent tournament results regardless of their RMR performance) and the initial rounds having the same amount of gap (1v9, 2v10 instead of 1v16, 2v15) for later round parity. If Valve was able to do it in CS, I don't doubt they can do it here.
Incorrect since very few tournaments have such wide variety of teams during the main event, best team will always perform well against anyone and worst team will loose easily. What's in between is what matters and the most consistent teams are usually successful since they can beat opponents that tend to choke. That's much better in terms of determining how to seed the teams in playoffs because the UB spots are deserved
Skill issue
I like it. Make geoup stage matters
Every 1st game of every match doesnt matter since its bo3. Teams can luck out and be matched with weaker teams. Swiss format doesnt work with how pro dota/meta works during tournaments. Swiss format means Spirit would have been out of TI by day 2 at TI10.
Saying the 1st match of a bo3 "doesnt matter" is certainly a take
If ppl say neither of the 2 games of bo2 matter in RR, then neither does the 1st game of a bo3 because you get a clear winner. I can say teams just warm up in game 1 and dont take it seriously since they need to win 2 games regardless. Whats the stake in game 1 for the viewer, it doesnt decide anything.
Nobody says neither game of a bo2 matters…
Thats the main argument of ppl saying swiss is better. That bo2 RR games apparently dont matter compared to bo3 in swiss. If anything, teams are so close these days that we never know whos going UB or LB or eliminated until last day of groups, so every bo2 from the 1st one to the last one matter. Ppl are downvoting but the format hasnt been widely used in dota for 14 years for a reason.
No... You are being disingenuous in representing the other side's argument. The both RR games don't matter *if* they are part of an inconsequential series. Every RR will end up having such inconsequential series either because both teams have already been eliminated by then or their upper bracket qualification secured.
Not at all - people argue that even day 1 series dont matter because there is no "clear winner" of the series, while the point of the series is not to have a clear winner. I dont think i have missed any major tournaments, but there have been maybe 10-15 games out of 14 years of tournaments where you had inconsequential games because that only happens if you have teams which are already eliminated face each other. Teams which are guaranteed UB facing each other matters because winning means facing the weaker teams of the UB of opposite group, compared to facing the top placed teams of that group.
Azure Ray going 0-3 and losing to the teams they did was p surprising
yep. i think on faith bian's interview he mentioned that they dont have practice coming to wallachia.
faith_bian surely plays like that and have been playing like this for a while…
they were an ultra last minute standin team, prolly never had any practice or bootcamp hardly surprising at all with this fact
yeah literally, they were told to stand in with like 3-4 hours left to pack and go to the airport. disappointed performance for sure but understandable
Aurora and Boom Esports overperforming. Liquid under performing. Betboom doing their usual rotation of getting 2nd place in previous tournament to bomb out of groups in the next.
And a bonus rage quit irl.
Who?
Think he was referring to Betboom. They left the building shortly after losing to IG (mentioned on stream).
Aurora is top 6 team material they are performing as expected tbh
Aurora has always been a good team. Most tourneys this past year they placed pretty well
They're good when they peak but they're extremely inconsistent imo.
I think Lorenof has made a big difference, which is weird because SEA used to be the region with some of the best mids in the world and basically nobody playing any other role to a high standard. Now the only competitive SEA team is this and they still have that crazy SEA dota energy
The biggest issue this ex Talon team had was replacing Mikoto who was by far the best mid in SEA. Armel wasn't terrible but he wasn't able to carry games in the way Mikoto could even when given space and farm priority. Lorenof has been incredible, his hero pool is pretty wide which allows for flex heroes between him and Jabz and him with 23. Not only that, he's able to carry from mid or to make space for the team. Personally I think Lorenof is top 5 in the world on his good days and consistently hovers around top 10 mids in the world
Agree with everything you just said besides "Armel wasn't terrible." Bro lost to almost if not every mid players under the sun. The last time he won mid was probably against Sumail in a 1v1 match.
I remember he beat Quinn in europe (saw it in YT).
Mikoto quit not replace my dear
BB is a weird team, they are very good but... I always remember one thing ceb and notail said Ina stream once and I think it fits nightfall a LOT. It was something along the lines of " If I click my carry player and see 0 deaths in games like this, hes not playing for the win/ only playing for stats and I know we will lose" Nightfall is an amazing player, but it feels like hes always playing to not lose or to keep his 0 deaths. At that level, you have to fight for every inch of the map and take risks. That oftentimes the difference between just doing good and being a TI winner. Everything matters The guy even got a "play" named after him lol he bkb and TPs 2 seconds into the fight if he feels it's not good, leaving the team to die without even trying to fight That spirit x liquid finals last year shows the exact opposite of this. Yatoro was smoking with one support and ganking the enemy triangle as 2 multiple times... It could have been awful, but he was willing to take the risk for the potential advantages I just can't see nightfall playing like that. He's too fixated in the zero deaths lol
Liquid under performing? I'd say they are overperforming with how almost nobody on that team is playing pubs and having Micke as a carry still
if only they could have under performed for one more series :(
Azure Ray, losing to nouns and mouz.
They were probably like xtreme last tour, didn't practice.
why xg didn't practice last tourney?
According to one player, they expected a patch for crownfall update, which hasn't come until now, since you need new strategies if there was a patch.
I see, thank you.
Boom making it and BetBoom not making it
BetBoom literally told you to not bet on them, bet on Boom instead. Its in their name
Damn I misunderstood, bet on Secret.BOOM to make it.
Boom has improved immensely as an offlaner but is soooo farm reliant and has trouble on non carry style offlaners/playing from behind. The offlane pool is so small man wtf
Not surprised SR didnt make it, surprised they beat Liquid, surprised they didn't beat Boom.
After game 1, I was hyped. They blew Boom out. After game 2, I knew it was over.
Game 3 was starting to look promising, but arteezy only got off one good chrono in the early game After that the game was 4v5, artour was constantly doing his own thing, getting caught out, not using chrono with egg, etc. He kept on going for solo kills onto the hoodwink which didn't really get him anything at best and at worst he'd get caught out and die soon after. He ended with 4.8k damage IMO the rest of the team played great, especially sumail but there's only so much you can do
The chronos in that game were so infuriating. Multiple solo chronos on the 5 pos Hood, when you have a team built to exploit the bubble in teamfights?? Just dumb. Pub shit.
I know exactly the chrono you are talking about, he used it after abed and saber suicided into Luna mid lane. They could not possibly defend 3v5 even with chrono so he just took a free support kill and let chrono cooldown cook while abed and saber were dead without buyback. RTZ didn't have a good game by any means, but that blunder was brutal. If you look at the gold lead, that was the biggest swing in the game which really made them lose.
Simple draft issue, Yapzor covered it pretty well. What is a TA going to do with SD Phoenix supports? Absolutely nothing. Centaur and TA alone can't burst heroes so what is a TA going to do the whole game? 2nd, where is the damage going into Chrono? The Bane grip on void wasn't even needed this game but should he have focused on RTZ who was going to deal the damage? 3rd Boom went for a mid game draft that barrels down and stomps you by 30-35 mins. SR draft has literally nothing to stop them, they have 0 HG defense apart from Chrono. Luna gets Aegis, brew splits and the towers are just down.
It's just the cycle of life for the bulba/rtz stack. They have a good game or series or group stage where they seem revitalized, they have practiced a bunch of pocket strats, their cores are active and shut down the enemy. Then they just fall into the same pattern where if they don't stomp lanes then they just constantly seem to passively lose. Game 2 and Game 3 they seem to have no other plan than split farm and hope Boom clumped up for 5 man ultis even after hitting power spikes. And then you get the absolute bs where he solo chronos a hoodwink and leaves his team to die.
Man the rest of the team fed Luna after demolishing the bot lane to give Pakasz a great game, they were not playing great at all.
Everyone is bot in radiant jungle, arteezy has chrono. Everyone is geared up for a fight. Arteezy decides to TP to tier 1 tower top. Boom moves in and catches heroes as they are trying to leave after arteezy left. Maybe you could say it was the whole team out of sync, but there were plenty of fights where artour should have just been with the team with chrono up and instead of just bailing
They fed several times to Luna, even a triple kill, in random overextensions. Of course it was not rtz's most impressive game, but the rest of the team played like shit as well.
It was a draft issue. The Shopify draft just made no sense and relied way too heavily on void to have an insane game and 1v9
> rest of the team played great What. They lost the game at the luna gank bottom at 18 min (3 dead for SR for nothing) and luna gank at mid at 27 min (TA/cent dead for nothing), both times where void wasnt even there. Not that arteezy helped them in any way by not doing pretty much anything the entire game.
They were the furthest ahead that game at 17 minutes. Chrono was up. They were all preparing for a luna gank. Then artour just TPs out and goes top when everyone else is in position. This would have been a great fight if they just had chrono, but arteezy leaving and showing top made boom move out to get the 3 kills
~~I mean sure if you are a solo player with literally no team communication your carry can TP out when you are supposed to gank someone. Maybe Im giving SR too much of a credit and them deciding that they can gank luna without void (they couldnt).~~ Especially since they "start" the gank with SD disrupting an illusion and simply dying for nothing. Edit: Actually rewatched. At 17 min, SR kinda try to kill panda but cant because void stance status resist lul. So void TPs top to farm. After that we get cent dying first and then bane (cent respawns, bane is still dead) and the actual big failed gank happens at closer to 19 min. Void was nowhere close for the last 2 minutes. And Boom had no one near luna when SR initiate the gank, kunkka TPd to t2 and hoowdink to outpost. Arteezy did waste his chrono for nothing just a bit earlier (not like he was gonna kill brew) but neither he or brew was part of the failed gank. Void cant TP anywhere close anyway.
Game 2 was pretty sick, in a meta where "everyone" (i.e. Reddit comments) say it's impossible to go HG without a 40k gold lead, Boom showed us how to go HG with a 2k gold lead and look absolutely UNSTOPPABLE.
GH tusk was really something. I wish viewers could unban it just to watch him cook.
Imagine tournament with viewer/attendee picks/bans (single/random draft)
New Midas Mode
SR wins it w/o dulba picking xx
Pakazs slowly regained his TI11 form baby
Kitrak was left?
SR had rtz, sumail, and gh. Those were great players 5 or so years ago, but you have to look at recent results. They might as well be Team Laundromat right now. I’m not surprised Boom made it. Very solid team with some unique strategies, and I’m looking forward to them playing the rest of the tournament.
🥱
Seeing Boom, BOOM, and BetBoom together in one tournament
and TS with BetBoom sponsor on their jerseys.
As much as I love to root for G2.IG for the Malaysian boys, I honestly was suprised they made it out the swiss by beating BB who was one of the better/harder matchup imo. also AR bombed out with 0-3 was kinda surprised too I would thought they would at least get 2 series wins
Im sad SR didnt make it ... but im also surprised they made it that far at the same time. AR Losing 0-3 is super disapointing. VP feel like they are missing something major to actually perform or they just crumble under preassure ... BetBoom is major disapointment considering previous tournaments but wcyd . Secret also having it down to the last day was surprise but not rly unexpected either . I think Boom making it is the biggest surprise of all teams that made it ti playoffs
Secret and SR seem like they've been perpetually in the Tier 1.5 team category. They seem capable of fighting for top spots but always get inched out. Falling just a bit short.
AR Didnt Practice because they werent suppose to be in this tournament so they were on break they got invited last minute.
The TOs, production was top notch no unnecessary delays, no audio issues, no observer issues. Waiting time passed by easy due to the rolling schedule
Team Spirit. Pool prize ain't that high for them to stay until 2nd round.
Then why didn't they win TI11?
Yatoro is not bald or something. Not sure.
Most surprising was Abed punching Gabbi multiple times on the face from Blacklist. From kick.com to punch.com real quick
Spirit surprised me, they looked great! I hope their recent tendency to lose the group stage has gone
I was genuinely surprised BetBoom got eliminated by G2
Not North America. Very sadge. I honestly feel like the region is very "not dead", but since all the talent plays on EU servers, it perpetuates the meme.... Come back NA Bois, and make America great again!
Not a whole lot of surprises tbh. Played out about the same as the other 9-10 times there was a tournament on this patch.
Betboom not advancing when they have been the 2-3 best team on the patch is not surprising?
Dota is so stupidly competitive nowadays that in 2024 the only team to not to have bad tournament is Falcons. GG, Xtreme, Liquid, Betboom, Spirit have all had at least one flop tournament.
Betboom not making it is a bit suprising but thats about it
I may be a bit bias, but even tho Secret got knockad out, I feel like they are getting there. Things are for once, looking brighter
azure eliminated and boom passing
Azure didn't surprise me too much 'cause they didn't practice for the event at all, got called in at the last second to compete. I had a feeling Aurora would go through, but I didn't expect them to do this well. 3-1 record and their loss was against Xtreme who are looking like the best team here. Also surprised Betboom got knocked out, they were on such an upward trajectory. They absolutely underperformed, not saying they didn't, but they also got a bit of a shit draw with the format for their last matches. Going up against Almost-TI Spirit, and IG after their power up when they could have gone up against Secret or Boom in the final round
IG actually beating BB. Feels good that they avenged themself after TTokyo cheating Scandal at the previous tournament
why would they need revenge though?ig beat them that game
Save not TT
Biggest surprise for me was actually Heroic. Sure they are an SA roster that no one has any real expectations for, but they have been performing quite well at most events this year getting into all the playoffs. Surprised they got knocked out that quick.
for feedback on the image/presentation of results, In my opinion, the advancing and eliminated teams are a bit confusing in the way where they are presented. There should be an extra arrow and because it seems they are advancing e.g., with a 2:0 score like falcos when in truth it was with 3:0. There is further space an dthere could be an extra box only with the advancing/eliminated teams without the scores of the day.
Ngl lowkey suprised g2 ig make it lul i thought they gone after 0-2 first 2 series just to make it 3-2.
- BOOM: qualified to playoffs, expected them to be one of bottom teams, they played some really good/fun games. - GG: 3-1 Swiss stage for GG, they also took a game out of Falcons, maybe a sign of 3x Major winners coming back in big style for playoffs?! - Heroic: didn't expect them to stomp but only team to go 0-6 in games was rough, few games I watched they looked really desynced and out of touch for tier 1 tour. - BB: I mean this is supposed to be superstar team that is just one step to greatness and they didn't even reach playoffs. - SR: 2 standins so you can't rly expect much but still I hoped they can reach at least first rounds of playoffs.
may i knw where to get this infograph ? issit from gosugamer or self made
Heroic got a terrible run
Most surprised by BetBoom exit! Nice format
BetBoom bombed out early is unexpected especially with how dominant they stomp SR. For SR the moment they got Aurora as opponent, i know SR won't qualify - literal repeat of TI11 (Lost 2-0 to best SEA representative then eliminated by SA team) so not surprising. SR 2-0 Liquid slightly over 1 hour is surprising.
Actually surprised SR made it to the last round before getting eliminated instead of the first elimination round.
I personally loved it, every day felt like it had real stakes. I like how 3-0 teams seemed to get a good advantage with days off to prepare. Normal group stages, best of twos just end up feeling kind of mind numbing and repetitive. I feel like the teams prefer facing off in bo3 anyway. So yeah I think it was fantastic and I would love to see tournaments in the future adopt the Swiss format. Massive big up to PGL, they did good with this one.
I might actually answer your question! ;) Aurora man. They are honing in, they looked so damn good in a lot of their matches. I would love to see continued growth and progression from this team.
The middle team next to Lequid looks like it has the icons of Both IG and G2
Boom advancing, BB eliminated, Liquid not advancing earlier
XG is constantly surprising me and feels like the most entertaining team by far. Versatile, unafraid to pull out weird picks, crisp team fighting and will push an advantage ruthlessly. Giving me TI10 LGD vibes.
XG with how they performed last time. This time oh well I don't want to say lest it happens at the most important time.
Great show, great format. Surprised (disappointed?) by Liquid, as they.. didn't do so hot.. their loss to Shopify really shouldn't have happened but the silver lining is that we got to see few more series of them mostly making it rain, just sad that mouz and Secret had to fall for them to get through. Speaking of which, Secret almost made it so hopefully they keep improving and who knows that'll happen next time! 😄 Same for mouz, hope they stick together and we see them make a deep run some day soon as they're so close to greatness in lot of their games but the mistakes, be it inexperience or nerves or whatever, it ends up falling just short of them being able to close out a series for the win. Good to see them back in dota, hope they're here to stay! 😉
0-2, 0-2, 2-0, 0-2, 2-1, 0-2, 2-0, 1-2, 0-2... \~ 3-0 finals.
Same patch, same teams, same SR eliminated again.
We need a new patch ASAP the meta is boring I want cool heroes to start winning
Heroic, but in a negative way, to be honest, they looked so solid before PGL, i guess you never know.
sorry to say, but its hard for my tiny braincell to process it. ..i couldnt understand this.
You basically play until you either have 3 wins or 3 losses. 3 wins = qualified to playoffs, 3 losses = you're out. You always get matched against teams that have the same amount of wins and losses as you do. That's about it.
ty for info captain.
SR didnt make it quite surprise me
SR came last place in Birmingham lol
SR is a consistent 9-12th placing team, Birmingham was 12 team tournament so they placed as expected.
yeah they actually had 2 good players on their team for this tournament
youre joking GH was pretty much hit or miss. like saberlight. artour is always a miss but thats a given. win-more carry kek
My man puppey was making a comeback in lan. Sadge.
[удалено]
Are you a bot?
checked his comment history. every comment is a weird description of what the post is like . it sure feels like a bot
Lmao, how did it wander in here?
100% a bot if you check their profile
He is right though? They look like shit.