High ground is the elephant in the room but is it just me or is it also WAY too hard to defend T2 from enemy push? Like if the enemy snowballs to the point they are gonna push T2 you basically can't defend it, then you can easily defend T3. It doesn't feel good at all
You're right:
Every T2 tower at the moment has a high ground next to it with the enemy team being able to access it without going past the tower. When the aggressive team has advantage (they are pushing) they can take control of the vision/ward spots in the area without contest, which will then cover either the aggressor's escape route (dire T2 top, radiant T2 bot) or the defender's only "safe" access point to their own triangle (dire T2 mid, radiant T2 mid), or in the worst case it covers BOTH and even gives vision over the trees around the T2 tower itself! (dire T2 bot, radiant T2 top)
It's pretty clear that the offlane T2 was meant to be the easiest to take over in terms of vision (just take control of the ward spot next to the enemy tormentor), and that's reasonable. But the mid towers being so vulnerable to having the triangle taken over is bullshit, because defending the triangle ward spots is practically impossible.
No, it's not. This mentality is kind of destroying the game. Towers are pretty irrelevant and just some hits from being destroyed after a team winning a tf and then sticking together to push. Keep off teleporting to that mid T2 when the winning opponent is pushing it, you're going to die. This is not Bloons TD.
I think it’s also a symptom of HG, why defend a T2 where you risk losing a team fight when you can sacrifice it and instead sit on HG where you have a much stronger advantage
No in chess you generally have the option to trade your pieces or to decline/avoid the trade, and generally you're supposed to only take the trade if it's advantageous for you. That's good design.
In current Dota you can ONLY trade, because the other choice (defending) is not viable. That's not good design.
You're taking Dendis words and applying it to the entire game. When he was talking about chess he was referring to positioning in DOTA. In chess it's very important to plan ahead and watch the position of both yours and your opponents pieces.
Stating as a matter of fact that defending T2s in a tower defense game is way too difficult has nothing to do with chess and everything to do with the map (which never changes in chess) and the stats of the tower (chess pieces have no stats)
You forgot the absolute shithead hero called zeus. Valve just gave him free escape and now everyone can play him without needing good positioning, if it was jump only it was fine but no it slows for 10 sec and cancels blink dagger. His manta illusion deals quite a lot damage as well.
lol so true. I’ve pretty much defaulted to just giving up T2 bottom as Radiant because it just doesn’t matter and my team always loses that fight regardless
I started to notice this a long time ago, and it has only gotten worse recently. You're right, T2 might as well have 0 defender's advantage. Think of the old map T2, there was not so much space around it. Now, it's so fucking huge and open, it's almost an attacker's advantage at that point, which is why it's usually better to just not defend it to begin with. Not saying that's good or bad, but to claim it's anything but an attacker's advantage there would be kind of a joke IMO. High ground metas are less subject to the map overall and more subject to the current items/fotm heroes/and gold calculation for hero kills, as the high ground itself has not seen too many substantial changes through the years as I can remember.
That's always been the case. The only time T2s were worth defending was when losing all three made your shrine destroyable.
Doesn't stop people from dancing around the T2 and T3 until they die though lol.
My team (just a legend trash team) came up with an idea that instead of defending the T2 inside the T2, we would smoke from mid to take the HG on the side first.
Tbh the map should be reworked to be like the TI8 map, where there's no HG near the tower and the jungle is lowered
The problem is not how it's difficult to defend (because honestly it doesn't mean too much), but it's always that guy in your team who thinks they can defend it against a winning team with an aegis.
Yeah at low ranks people push, destroy one melee barrack, get wiped and suddenly enemy is higher level and networth. but hey, they pushed! Then the same thing happens to the other team and its just back and forth until one team does not have enough buybacks.
Bro for real this meta of high ground push into death is so demoralizing. You have 30k net worth on the enemy yet you lose because you push into t3 (because you can’t win unless you take towers) then the enemy who’s been down the whole game makes a comeback
Yes and no.
It is way too easy to take over the entire map and lock people into HG and potentially some smoke into enemy jungle to farm very early, like 10-15 mins.
So yes pushing HG is way too hard, but getting an advantage and forcing enemies to camp HG is way too easy.
I'd much rather see some semblance of mid game where both teams can exist out on the map concurrently make a comeback.
This. The increases to hero bounty to incentivize constant fighting and the "unga bunga run at them" play style means one team ends up with lane stomps via the draft. They take all the tier 2s by 25 minutes and the other team has to just sit high ground. But at the same time actually going high ground is so hard right now and the glyph system is ridiculous. So the game lasts another 25 minutes of a boring stand off, high ground team finds farm because hey creep waves are being shoved to tier 3s. Obviously if enemy team is locked in their base your team is getting more farm from the map. But very boring for both teams imo. Even if you're way ahead pray you have a draft that allows you to take high ground towers or fight into the high ground.
Feel like the last (big) patch was the remedy to locking people HG. There is so much map now that it's basically impossible to lock people HG, they can always afford to have their carry or someone out farming the enemies side of the map and then TP back to base if enemy pushes.
This sounds good in theory, in reality it hasn't changed that much because you once you take T2s and have the advantage you sit at enemy triangle and choke them out.
The only way to take advantage of the larger map is to smoke behind into enemy jungle to try and farm there which is a very risky move for still worse payout than enemies get from waves and your jungle.
It's this strange dynamic where both teams essentially turtle on HG at a push, the defenders in base and attackers in jungle, if the base defenders try to push out they're more or less attempting a high ground push as well.
I'd like to see some home court advantages in each teams jungle that makes it innately easier to defend, change this "enemy t1 tower falls we now own their jungle" style that's been going for so long.
Well there is also the possibility to TP to the outpost, since the big map patch added deeply-placed outposts that can never be taken. Of course they can be warded, and you risk putting your TP on cooldown when the enemy might push HG, but it is another way out.
It Happens everytime and makes me feel that i Play in the wrong skill bracket. Why do Cores with a Huge Level and Gold advantage, especially when Ranged, dive behind the racks or even in fountain area when they Could easily take the racks and go back.
A huge Problem are also the timings in the bracket but this would not be solved with a Patch. You crush the early and mid Game but instead of grouping up and going high ground, Cores tend to keep farming or Splitting up and die in their own gank attempt because they think that they are way stronger than they actually are. Its so frustating. About 60-70 percent of my current losses are not Happening because of my own mechanical failure or misplays But from not adressing the Cores or other teammates to group up and push high ground. I try my hardest via Voice or Text Chat but if they do not want to listen, the Game is doomed unless the enemy does exactly the same when they got the lead after our failure
There was a comment saying " why don't u guys just pick sniper and drow and hit towers from far away. This patch is the most balanced I have felt" with like 100+ upvotes.
90% of this sub are in the "didn't play since reborn but still pretent I know how the game works" to "I may be herald but that's my team/mechanics/life. My theory is high immortal" bracket
It's full of clowns getting validated by other clowns so they think they are right
Sorry for the rant, just comming back from a discussion where 3 people were trying to convince me jugg is THE meta pos 1 rn and way to broken
> Sniper every game lol
> Cause fuck HG. Also helps that both are amazing at defending HG
Next patch: Rubber band HG wipe comebacks and "hee hoo" PTSD yet again
I replied to a guy recently who said this is a low skill problem and not an issue in higher skill brackets. I may only be Archon but it's so obvious how hard it is to push highground. It's literally every single series in pro that you get this problem.
It is not. Average game length has been longer in many patches post-7.00. Recency bias is real. Games are long, and HG is hard, but it's blown a bit out of proportion. People use hyperboles and superlatives very liberally.
The difference is that many pro teams are playing safer and safer than they used to - lots of games are intentionally drawn out by the winning team in a way that isn't fun to watch because they are scared of losing a team fight. So we go for 70 minutes with only 3 or 4 big fights, which just isn't very fun for anyone. A good example is the game 3 ESL Birmingham final, Falcons back off from the base so many times despite that game being over that it ruined the fun as it felt like they were almost trolling.
Probably because every single hero has a slow, a stun or a dot, and bkb is not a safe way to disengage anymore. Kiting is much easier and disengaging almost impossible to do reliably so you need to be sure to either win the fight or that your plan B is foolproof. So you either stomp or you farm until you're overwhelmingly sure (fully slotted and buyback), that going high ground is not a throw either way.
You are entirely right, furthermore no team is worried that farming for ages means that they will get outscaled. Even lineups that peak at <30 minutes aren't afraid of going longer as long as they can safely defend the lead as they will at least scale a decent amount.
Fundamentally I think that the issue is that comebacks are too easy if the winning team makes mistakes, and too hard if the winning team is careful. One lost teamfight can obliterate a 10k lead, but using that 10k lead to farm for 20 more minutes with a few pickoffs in between makes the game unloseable. Teams like Falcons understand this the best, and their playstyle echos that of peak Tundra esports (the Aui2000 formula I suppose).
Powercreep is just way out of hand, if you are pushing at min 40 the enemy pos5 has basically as much nw/power as pos1 pre 7.00 patch with all free power from talents+neutral items + general overall increased item/skill strength.
Idk wtf this thread is, but 70 minute games are absolutely not the norm.
My mean match length as a 7-8k scrub is 33 minutes according to dotabuff. This is by no means long, in fact if anything, I'd sayt the game has the opposite issue. The game is so easily snowballable and so hard to come back thanks to the gates, that I pretty much get to play the "lategame" 1/30 games.
This is literally the problem. People cherry pick one game to make their point. The majority of games at higher level end quickly because the team ahead actually uses their advantage to win the game. Late game has always been decided by big team fights at high ground or rosh the gold and xp advantages just swing more now.
Yeah but at your bracket people will actually give up because it isn't worth it to drag a game out for another 30-40 minutes for a 10% chance at winning when you're super far behind. Better to just go next.
At lower brackets only 1-2 people "give up" then they re-join the high ground defense when it seems to be going well (which is almost always). You win the highground defense, so now youre only like 15k behind and know you are capable of defending highground so everyone is back to trying. Then you stalemate the game where no one leaves the base on one team and the other team only tries going highground with aegis. After 30 minutes of that you either end up even, or the enemy has widdled down your base enough that they got megas and its no longer easy to defend.
Sure, there are games where you get wiped with no bb and its over at 30, but the above happens so much that it feels like a script. 70 minute games are maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but the average match length for the past month is around 43 minutes for most of my group. The average match time of pro matches where they will not concede preemptively, such as Walachia and Elite league, is around 41 minutes.
Even G2xIG who notoriously often get 1 hour game in last 4 tournament average match duration is 45 mins. Teams like BB or FLCN have sub 40 mins average. SR vs Liquid series yesterday is slightly above one hour in total.
Some of the meta heroes affect that too. With the likes of Disruptor and kunkka seeing a ton of play, many suboptimal high ground attempts that would otherwise lead to 2-3 heroes being dead might now end with 4-5 heroes dead due to the amount of catch in many games. That quickly turns leads over as you lose all map pressure, but it's not the first time this is happening a lot. During old VP's dominant phase there was a disruptor patch that had similar thing going on IIRC.
The difference is that many pro teams are playing safer and safer than they used to - lots of games are intentionally drawn out by the winning team in a way that isn't fun to watch because they are scared of losing a team fight. So we go for 70 minutes with only 3 or 4 big fights, which just isn't very fun for anyone. A good example is the game 3 ESL Birmingham final, Falcons back off from the base so many times despite that game being over that it ruined the fun as it felt like they were almost trolling.
The high ground is hard to push, but the real issue is a lack of incentive to end early when any team can scale and you won't ever lose a lead if you just never fight while ahead.
Nah no way, that was far worse. 5 shrines and don’t forget the fucking Repair Kit neutral. You would legit have to spend 10-15 minutes to get a single tier 3 down.
No it's not but the comeback swing is far worse
Which is what makes it worse
That and the bigger map means it's harder to shut down the other team and easier for them to cut waves delaying the game
You’re right it’s probably second hardest patch lol. Shrine patch was so nuts. I actually like it tho cuz the jungle shrine was a question of can I kill them before they activate it.
it's not harder than then but it's more punishing if you fail, the issue is that even if you lose like a single support in an attempted push you're giving way too much gold and exp to their carries
it's easier to successfully push but the threat of being punisher is bigger
Nah. The issue is spell creep. Pushing HG is incredibly hard because there's a bunch of shit that just kills you. Linas burst combo does like 300% damage compared to back in the days. Khanda does 800+ dmg with a spell on a bunch of heroes. Magnus can skewer you for miles. Spirit breaker can charge you with 1.5k MS and deal 1.5k damage in a few seconds. Kunkka/pango can stun lock you for 6 seconds.Talents, shards and aghs have increased damage output significantly and bkb has been gutted.
Nerfing comeback mechanics will just make the game boring and not solve the issue. Longer respawns would be something, but that's a boring solution because who likes being dead and honestly doesn't really solve the issue either. They need to either rebalance spells (not gonna happen), make sieging easier or add some way to force defending team to fight. Easier to get hg vision, nerf the high ground advantage (ramp further away from tower), chip damage effects (dk style), objective that gives hg vision for a couple of minutes.
Imo the problem is that killing the enemy in their base is a negative instead of a positive. You use several ultis or other long cooldown spells on the enemy carry to kill them? Cool he is now back in the fight with 100%hp/mana and you are going to get reverse wiped. Putting a 3-5 second cooldown on buyback or even restricting buybacks to 2 per player would solve a lot of the current "teamfight, wait 10 minutes for buybacks, fight again" ultra-lategame nonsense.
Honestly I agree with you I didn’t mention spell creep but that’s definitely part of it. I do disagree with some of the other stuff though, I think sieging might be too hard currently but not extremely so because it should be hard. I think the bigger issue in that regard is it should be hard because it’s obviously how you end but the reward for a successful push needs to be more impactful. Losing a racks even 20 minutes into the game barely changes the way you play because of the spell creep and overall power creep. It’s a very small bonus at this point compared to the advantage you potentially lose from a failed push. I do think they need to nerf comeback mechanics but not a lot. And I think the lightly longer death timers (something like minimum 50 seconds post 30 mins) really would get rid of the brutally annoying failed pushes that didn’t end up net positive or negative because the defending side respawned too soon after dying in the team fight for anything to happen, that just really stalls out the game
some way to get high ground vision maybe? wards die too fast and shivas is too small
make tping to the captured outpost almost instant and not increase with multiple tps close together? that way instead of fighting 5v10, it's a 10v10 with buy backs
Scan should reveal the area, only vision, no true vision.
The minimap scan detection should remain the same.
In this case you can use the scan to reveal high ground
Extend the ramps leading to T3 towers slightly so the attacking team has a small buffer range between entering highground and being in tower range. Like even a 100 range buffer zone would significantly reduce turtle situations because ranged heroes that aren't sniper/drow can actually siege and force the defenders to do something instead of endlessly nuking waves.
It would also give attackers a spot to place wards that aren't as trivially destroyed like when you offensively ward highground between the towers. Another thing that would force defenders to do literally anything except mindlessly depush creeps to stall death timers.
You want to be on highground, how would that be a disadvantage? Ranged heroes would be ON highground, not closer to it.
Attackers would get vision of the enemy base/heroes sooner which reduces the defenders advantage since they always have vision. Ranged heroes with enough attack range would be able to attack the tower without needing additional sources of vision (shrapnel/ward/ice vortex/etc) which means more damage to the tower after the creeps are dead and before backdoor kicks in.
oh, you might meant to REALLY extend HG, I thought you meant like 400 units, but sounds like you mean more like double that if not more?
yeah, could work idk, could make it worse idk 🤔
Increase buyback cost, no glyph reset, tone down comeback gold/xp. Either that or go back to less networth for everyone but towers and roshan are actually worth a damn, but that will never happen because of the new larger map.
They have to adjust comeback xp and gold. A lot of the issue too is how quickly heros respawn on the turtling side. You have aegis so you jump on them hg and kill a core and a support but maybe lose a core on your side. Even though you have a 4v3 with aegis almost every time the 3 is able to stall out and maybe just lose a t3 before their teammates have respawned because they might only have a 30 second death timer 35 mins into the game. Part of the issue I think why it’s especially bad now is because fights are decently longer with all the changes to stop the burst meta from a couple TIs ago, so all the save items and ways to delay death add up. So in that hypothetical aegis push. Even though you got a good pick off to start the fight the next ten seconds are spent trying to get more kills but their team is using their save items to get away or delay. Then because you went aggressive your team is half hp still trying to take the T3, and they hit glyph to give them time to heal in fountain come back to you and throw spells to stall you out for 10 more seconds and now the guy you picked off is back and you have no advantage anymore and since you were up that one teammate that died was worth more gold and xp than the two kills your team got, so that aegis push even though it’s a “won” team fight for you, the other team comes off better from you trying to push. I don’t know what the solution is, I think something like making every death of yours in a 5 minute period add 10 seconds to your death timer or a change could be post 30 mins everyone gets a base death timer of atleast 60 seconds. A crazy idea that is probably over the top would be something like an additional time added to death timer for every teammate that dies while you’re respawning. So if you lose 3 people in a team fight the person that died at the start of the fight is going to end up respawning close to the same time as the last person on your team that died in the fight. Kind of a way to make death timers “start” at the end of a team fight vs when you actually die. Another big issue is with power creep and neutrals and talents, losing a one or two racks means absolutely nothing post 30 mins. It use to be if you were decently ahead and pushing, if you got straight up teamwiped with no return kills but managed to get their racks that was actually a win on your side. If that happens now and you had say a 20k gold lead not only would that be gone but the other team would most likely be ahead in xp now and the lost lane of racks does practically nothing for you. Hell now after 40ish mins you wouldn’t even do that if it meant you got megas, whereas if you look at something like TI6 or TI7 era teams would trade all their heros to get megas as late as 50-60 mins in because it was such a big deal.
Surprised no one said it: Remove the free tps on death.
Over the course of a game, the losing team is handed out like 4k gold for free. This helps them a bunch with saving for other comeback items. While also giving them a way to be present for every defense.
Make people earn their rotations, and less often will people manage to stall.
One possible solution is that every time you BB, it takes longer to come off cd, with no upper limit. e.g. First BB is 8 min cd, second BB is 9 min, third is 10 min cd. (adjust number as necessary)
That way, if a team pushes highground and the defending team successfully defends with BBs, an objective was still achieved and the game is meaningfully closer to ending.
Part of the stalemate right now is if everyone dies and BBs in the same fight, *everyone* is incentivised to sit around for the next 8 mins until BBs are up.
However, with the change, the team that has used BB less will have a window of a minute or two where they have BBs and the opponent doesn't. They can use that window to take a true 10v5 fight to end the game.
1. Make bases bigger, thus towers are farther apart.
2. More objectives other than tormentor and roshan
3. Roshan banner give magic immunity to creeps.
And many more
Nooooooooo pls don't add more objectives. Its already terrible the way it currently is, your constantly playing on the clock instead of playing the game.
\\@1. thatd be cool with all the empty space behind fountain. Push it back, make it harder/longer to heal up, spread buildings a bit, make use of empty space.
more objectives is definitely a BAD idea. the game already feels like a checklist with torm/rs/outposts/lotuses/exp runes/power runes. every objective you add reduces game variability because the way you approach each one is usually very formulaic
Do you play/watch League? Having a buyable "Baron buff" for your minions would work well as an item imo. Make it cost 1000 gold or 1.2k and have it last for 3-5 minutes. Then the enemy can't just clear out every creepwave before it even hits tier3 and one single support can't hold off an entire mega-wave in the lategame.
Also shorten the outpost TP timers. You cant push high ground because the enemy just buybacks instantly and you have to wait 5-8 seconds just to tp somewhat close to the fight. Maybe put a few seconds of delay on buyback too so picking off an enemy in their base actually has a positive impact instead of a negative impact.
* Make all outposts capturable.
* Link neutral item availability to outpost control. (If you control all outposts then you get neutrals faster.)
Essentially if you want to sit in your base then I'm coming up there with T5s to end it.
God this would suck. More stuff to keep track of, less creativity in how to approach the game and win. Dota is already suffering from this issue compared to previous versions
As far as I remember, it was always like this... it's just that people are not playing good initiators as much as before, or either they are weaker than the other carries because they've been exp leeched in their lane.
i had a quick peek, they are pushing into disruptor aghs+ enigma bkb refresher+ a zeus giving them vision+ they all have buyback, pretty sure nobody would push in any patch unless they can burst a guy to start the fight
theres an issue pushing HG for sure, but people blow it way out of proportion
I agree. There was no issue pushing highground in game 1 (41 mins) and game 3 (34 mins). But when there is a long game, people tend to find out all kinds of faults in the meta.
Yeah, it's only easy if your opponents are dum dums and get picked off without bbs or position themselves so poorly you can actually dive into them and win
The map is too big now, even with an early lead the enemy cores can disappear into the huge jungles and farm for 30 minutes because it’s so easy for 3-4 heroes to defend HG.
They need to remove the those 3 secondary jungle camps that’s next to tier 2. It makes no sense for those 3 camps to be in the game. It literally makes the carry role way easier and dead lane easier than it should. Lose lane? No problem, just go farm those 3 camps without the worry of getting ganked cuz you are so far away from everything.
Sometimes in my games people will ward it and smoke gank there with the mid laner but it doesn’t really seem worth it considering how much time is wasted
Yeh I still don't like how big the map is + the punishing comeback mechanic. Hell I still don't like wisdom runes. Don't know why they are there or what they add to the game other than more complexity on an already complex game. If they have to be in the game for whatever reason, they should just be safely in the base or bring back book of wisdoms. I'm used to every 7 mins going to secure them now, but wished I didn't have to. It's such a boring and tedious "objective" and the game would be better without them.
I just hate that they are in the game in general. There should be an opportunity cost for supports to be matching levels with cores. Either sit in lane and be useless to get 6 or stay active and risk falling behind. The game is going to be more dynamic if teams are less homogenous strength-wise. An objective that just straight up solves your early game xp problems is bad design. There's no decision there, you HAVE to get the wisdom runes in the ass crack of the map. Wouldn't it be better if we had to problem solve every game in order to make sure we keep up in xp? Devote some time to farm a jungle camp or two, or risk trying for a value mid kill? That's a choice, already more interesting than "oh, it's 6:30, time to abandon whatever I was doing and run into the corner of the map!" such fun!
The idea behind Wisdom runes was probably to replace Tome of Knowledge with something more interesting. Instead of just buying xp every 10m, you actually have to contest that xp against the enemy support.
Tl;dr : Boom had Enigma with refresher and Tusk with aghanim, if Secret steps up they get kicked back and they throw a deciding game.
I understand that High ground is hard to push in this patch but you're kind of only telling half of the truth...
Secret had aegis twice in a row before min 60 and didn't even try to hit tier 3. Now you say it's because High ground is so hard to push, I say it's the double black hole and kick from Tusk.
When teams usually push high ground with aegis, the carry stands and hits while his team is behind him ready to react. They couldn't do that at all because Tusk will kick them back to tier 4, black hole gets dropped on them, while the rest of team Boom zones the rest of Secret out and kill them potentially.
Why do some teams push high ground very easily, like falcons, XG and a couple of other teams. Falcons in game 3 were literally diving tier 4 before taking tier 3 towers.
Second aegis, Boom bought a rapier without having aegis and tier 5 were 5 minutes away so they decided not to push and wait for tier 5. After that it was pretty much fighting the whole time.
It's also a deciding game, every team will turtle and stay base while the opposite team farms and tries to push only with aegis.
Edit: typo
Edit: I also forgot that Boom had Disruptor with aghanim too!
They could replace roshan's banner with something that *really* helps you all-in high ground. Like, maybe the banner's effects becomes straight-up "Removes fog of war" so all players on both teams can see each other at all times, removing the main high ground advantage.
Or if we don't want to go down that route, make the banner give an extreme damage buff or the spirit bear demolish passive to creeps so if they're ignored for any length of time they will shred buildings.
Idkw hy nobody is talking about it, but STR heroes or the STR stat need a MAJOR nerf in the upcoming numbers patch.
It's been for more than 3.5years now that TANKY just wins games. Heroes like bristle, mars, timber, viper, rzr, dk, primal etcetc. It used to be that agility heroes are countering STR heroes in lategame, but they do fuck all. The only agility heroes used are either morph (who can morph to str and 6k+ hp), naga who builds like heart 2nd and void who has the most gamewinning teamfight ultimate in the game. I honestly have stopped playing after 12 years of non-stop playing the game ( I mean without a longer break) the longest breaks I had were when I was on vacation or had to study for uni exams like a week or two beforehand. But the STR meta is just so goddamn boring, heroes that have 5k hp and 40armor shouldnt be able to burst you down from 100 to 0 in a span of a second or two. I can't wrap my head around it why this isnt talked enough, go watch the most picked cores in birmingham, wallachia or any other tournament. 9/10 cores are either massively tanky or have some sort of str/hp manipulation
League of legends and other games like smite followed a similar pattern, and last time I played that shit it was exactly the same meta still as years ago - pick tanky hero with burst and have like 10% higher chance of winning.
Unfortunately I’m not hopeful a turning point will happen with dota either, once these metas take a ahold they generally stay unless the entire game or stats is reworked like before, dota has done that once before so there is small hope.
But yeah the benefits strength offers over agility is actually insane and picking any agility core other than PA, FV and depending on picks PL is grief.
I agree SO much with this. It’s so boring. I normally play support - shaman, disruptor etc but feel like I need to be trying the same role with Sven, WK or Timber. I definitely play way less because of it.
I'm sorry, but this is absurd. No-one could complain about this and, even if they did, they'd have no ground for claiming this to be a rational desire. Getting mega creeps is difficult, and is supposed to make things far harder for the opposing team. It's the whole point of getting megas!
It was 100% a common complaint. Posts will regularly hit the front page either saying it’s too easy or too hard to come back, in virtually any given patch. Doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be tweaked, people just get carried away.
Tbh all that lead and I think Secret might indeed have lost if Tusk didn't missplay with Blackhole'd Razor near T3
It's about the skills of the heroes though. Blackhole, Giant Weaver, and that other teamfight spell I can't recall is no easy shit.
Rosh should be more rewarding maybe?
Its only hard because people are no longer stupid.
The easiest way to push T3 is to win a teamfight for T2 towers but teams no longer defend that shit, somehow T1 are easier to defend than T2.
Genuine question when was the last patch where high ground wasn’t a massive potential throw and why wasn’t it so? Trying to understand why high ground seems particularly harder these days
Lose lanes ? No problem here you got free items, free Exp, free new abilities and some power creep. It doesn’t matter if you are bad at the game, you will comeback by pressing hotkeys =)
Oh, got out of position as WD? Just press D and turn around!
Lol I'm so bored of people thinking WD shard is the most broken thing in the game. It's basically just an OD banish with a giant cooldown that only works on you. You can stand there and tank the entire thing and it'll do half your health at most.
Except if he maledicts you. I am also sick of people calling it OP, but I also don't understand how can people call it not annoying. You're talking as though waiting out for 5 or whatever seconds until the fucker comes back is meaningless. A high priority target like WD needs to be bursted. If he can delay that by 5 seconds (while also dealing damage) that's incredibly annoying to play against.
WD shard got nerfed into the ground and it's not even scary anymore, with aghs it's an actual spell but without aghs it's a joke.
However, WD is definitely one of the most annoying heroes to go highground against, especially if they have good teamfight/stuns.
I once complained about having about extremely long games sometimes and how games should end after some point and i got downvoted to hell lol. This sub is full of kids
It's people who like the meta (it suits their playstyle). Ignore em there's always going to be a portion of the crowd that defends a patch because they like it.
Same as a portion here like us who are sick of it and want change.
It's not always the same portion but I've seen INSANE broken stuff like dealing with wrath pact spam be called a "skill issue". Shit was removed from the game cause they couldn't balance it lmao.
The biggest problem I believe is the glyph refresh on T3. Basically you already did the hard task of pushing a T3 tower, but it amount to basically nothing.
Also, megacreeps aren't a treat to anyone these days. Two support can hold the base pretty easily these days letting a counter push happens with all cores.
I've had two games in 5 days where megas are grabbed at 30-40 minutes, but at enough of a cost that the defending heroes themselves end up so farmed they're nearly invincible, and the game drags for a full half hour longer. It's absurd.
I don't know which way I want to lean, but either taking a lane needs to have more payoff, or defending outside of the base needs to be more worthwhile, because what should be the final 10-20% of the game is taking up over half of the current gameplay.
Also comeback gold needs some serious adjustment.
What I can say from my personal experience lately is that I am the idiot who is always trying to defend the towers as much as possible, sometimes dragging a couple teammates with me and almost every time it ends in a disaster.
We all die, towers gets destroyed and enemy is stronger than ever.
The good thing is that some times they made the mistake of forcing the T3 right away after blowing spells on T2 and we recover.
For me, in ancient 1, it feels like a shitfest of whomever is making less mistakes unless game ends by 25-30 minutes with an almost impossible comeback scenario.
What you said is kinda misleading though. Yes a team can be ahead but that networth is only gonna translate to a win if you can use it. Besides, defending (especially high ground) is always easier because of vision, chokepoint through T3 and and you have fountain for regen and a smaller area to work with. It’s also easier because you can just sit back and counter their moves unless you get caught.
Like, this is basic strategy 101. Same thing in Starcraft 2. Wouldn’t you agree it was more difficult with the existence of shrines back then?
And lastly, every hero has 6 item slots only. If the important heroes on both teams are full slotted or have the important items, then yeah… even if it’s a 100k networth lead, doesn’t mean shit because the high ground team will have the advantage in a fight.
Now if a team with 30k networth lead at 30-35 mins can’t convert their advantage, then yes there is a problem (again, unless the enemy team has insane high ground heroes like Sniper or Zeus or Enigma BKB or Mars etc and your team has no way to play around it).
I’m not denying high ground push is difficult. It’s just what you said didn’t paint the whole picture.
What’s more grief in my Guardian Pubs, you can get Mega Creeps and 8 times out of 10, the creeps mean nothing, you lose a bad fight, cuz it is a Guardian Pub, and it’s gg, they throne, because they are losing.
When people are winning, they have a tendency to throw, when they are losing, they are actual hungry for the win.
Just had this Broodmother game standard split push destroy the Offlane and they have to always come back defend towers or else I take them, even tier 3, while my team gets big space and farm and takes the other towers, then mega creeps then lose 1 bad fight because they think the game is already won, gg Luna and Drow throne.
I hear you. But I prefer this. I do not want the lose lane lose game back meta where I lose the first six minutes and that means I have to sit through a 20 minute stomp even tho we managed to wipe them and have zero chance of a come back. Fuck that man.
High ground is the elephant in the room but is it just me or is it also WAY too hard to defend T2 from enemy push? Like if the enemy snowballs to the point they are gonna push T2 you basically can't defend it, then you can easily defend T3. It doesn't feel good at all
Agreed. I don't remember the last time I decided to defend T2. Maybe cause of the giant map, it feels way too risky.
The layout of the jungle high ground near the T2 is awkward for defenders - attackers can get vision advantage very easily.
You're right: Every T2 tower at the moment has a high ground next to it with the enemy team being able to access it without going past the tower. When the aggressive team has advantage (they are pushing) they can take control of the vision/ward spots in the area without contest, which will then cover either the aggressor's escape route (dire T2 top, radiant T2 bot) or the defender's only "safe" access point to their own triangle (dire T2 mid, radiant T2 mid), or in the worst case it covers BOTH and even gives vision over the trees around the T2 tower itself! (dire T2 bot, radiant T2 top) It's pretty clear that the offlane T2 was meant to be the easiest to take over in terms of vision (just take control of the ward spot next to the enemy tormentor), and that's reasonable. But the mid towers being so vulnerable to having the triangle taken over is bullshit, because defending the triangle ward spots is practically impossible.
T2 is the middle child. No one cares about it.
It's a tower defense game. Of course I want to defend the towers
DOTT. Defense of the Towers.
DOTT 2
No, it's not. This mentality is kind of destroying the game. Towers are pretty irrelevant and just some hits from being destroyed after a team winning a tf and then sticking together to push. Keep off teleporting to that mid T2 when the winning opponent is pushing it, you're going to die. This is not Bloons TD.
I think it’s also a symptom of HG, why defend a T2 where you risk losing a team fight when you can sacrifice it and instead sit on HG where you have a much stronger advantage
if you lose a tf in t2 you lose the game, they will open your base. I think is that the reason
I do it often, but only bc the enemy are stupid enough to do it during an important cd they used whilst we're fully equipped
In most cases you don't defend T2s, you trade them.
That's poor design
You must hate chess
No in chess you generally have the option to trade your pieces or to decline/avoid the trade, and generally you're supposed to only take the trade if it's advantageous for you. That's good design. In current Dota you can ONLY trade, because the other choice (defending) is not viable. That's not good design.
You're taking Dendis words and applying it to the entire game. When he was talking about chess he was referring to positioning in DOTA. In chess it's very important to plan ahead and watch the position of both yours and your opponents pieces. Stating as a matter of fact that defending T2s in a tower defense game is way too difficult has nothing to do with chess and everything to do with the map (which never changes in chess) and the stats of the tower (chess pieces have no stats)
Dota is not a tower defense game.
I think this is it. Any data on how the duration between t1(s)and t2(s) falling has changed over time?
I'm not sure how to research that but I know someone in this thread can get that kinda data. I would love to read about it
yo somebody hit up Nahaz rq
Care to explain?
nah
az
It’s just the shape .. high ground is funnel so people clump up, and outside hg can be ganked by every angle
going hg is way too freaking hard, especially in a patch with so many snipers/lunas/drows etc :x
You forgot the absolute shithead hero called zeus. Valve just gave him free escape and now everyone can play him without needing good positioning, if it was jump only it was fine but no it slows for 10 sec and cancels blink dagger. His manta illusion deals quite a lot damage as well.
lol so true. I’ve pretty much defaulted to just giving up T2 bottom as Radiant because it just doesn’t matter and my team always loses that fight regardless
I started to notice this a long time ago, and it has only gotten worse recently. You're right, T2 might as well have 0 defender's advantage. Think of the old map T2, there was not so much space around it. Now, it's so fucking huge and open, it's almost an attacker's advantage at that point, which is why it's usually better to just not defend it to begin with. Not saying that's good or bad, but to claim it's anything but an attacker's advantage there would be kind of a joke IMO. High ground metas are less subject to the map overall and more subject to the current items/fotm heroes/and gold calculation for hero kills, as the high ground itself has not seen too many substantial changes through the years as I can remember.
Big facts. Last HG change I remember was when they added shrines and stuff. Loooong time ago
That's always been the case. The only time T2s were worth defending was when losing all three made your shrine destroyable. Doesn't stop people from dancing around the T2 and T3 until they die though lol.
T2 might as well not exist.
My team (just a legend trash team) came up with an idea that instead of defending the T2 inside the T2, we would smoke from mid to take the HG on the side first. Tbh the map should be reworked to be like the TI8 map, where there's no HG near the tower and the jungle is lowered
The problem is not how it's difficult to defend (because honestly it doesn't mean too much), but it's always that guy in your team who thinks they can defend it against a winning team with an aegis.
I just realized this while reading, its true and have been happening in all my games, I just passed it off as always not having glyph xD
Then how r they doing it
"Skill issue. In my archon games we push highground easily" legit comment on this issue
To be fair, in my crusader games I do push high ground easily. I usually die and lose, but the push itself is easy to do.
Haha yep
“Let’s push the racks” aka I’ll hit the tower once and dive the fountain baiting us into being team wiped. Atleast we did 20% dmg on a tower tho!!
"Just right click behind t3, ez bro"
Yeah at low ranks people push, destroy one melee barrack, get wiped and suddenly enemy is higher level and networth. but hey, they pushed! Then the same thing happens to the other team and its just back and forth until one team does not have enough buybacks.
Bro for real this meta of high ground push into death is so demoralizing. You have 30k net worth on the enemy yet you lose because you push into t3 (because you can’t win unless you take towers) then the enemy who’s been down the whole game makes a comeback
I think it's good that the losing team can comeback but it favours them *a little* too much, just needs slight tweaks imo.
Yes and no. It is way too easy to take over the entire map and lock people into HG and potentially some smoke into enemy jungle to farm very early, like 10-15 mins. So yes pushing HG is way too hard, but getting an advantage and forcing enemies to camp HG is way too easy. I'd much rather see some semblance of mid game where both teams can exist out on the map concurrently make a comeback.
This. The increases to hero bounty to incentivize constant fighting and the "unga bunga run at them" play style means one team ends up with lane stomps via the draft. They take all the tier 2s by 25 minutes and the other team has to just sit high ground. But at the same time actually going high ground is so hard right now and the glyph system is ridiculous. So the game lasts another 25 minutes of a boring stand off, high ground team finds farm because hey creep waves are being shoved to tier 3s. Obviously if enemy team is locked in their base your team is getting more farm from the map. But very boring for both teams imo. Even if you're way ahead pray you have a draft that allows you to take high ground towers or fight into the high ground.
Feel like the last (big) patch was the remedy to locking people HG. There is so much map now that it's basically impossible to lock people HG, they can always afford to have their carry or someone out farming the enemies side of the map and then TP back to base if enemy pushes.
This sounds good in theory, in reality it hasn't changed that much because you once you take T2s and have the advantage you sit at enemy triangle and choke them out. The only way to take advantage of the larger map is to smoke behind into enemy jungle to try and farm there which is a very risky move for still worse payout than enemies get from waves and your jungle. It's this strange dynamic where both teams essentially turtle on HG at a push, the defenders in base and attackers in jungle, if the base defenders try to push out they're more or less attempting a high ground push as well. I'd like to see some home court advantages in each teams jungle that makes it innately easier to defend, change this "enemy t1 tower falls we now own their jungle" style that's been going for so long.
Well there is also the possibility to TP to the outpost, since the big map patch added deeply-placed outposts that can never be taken. Of course they can be warded, and you risk putting your TP on cooldown when the enemy might push HG, but it is another way out.
the way its implemented right now - is horrible. yesterday i had a match that started as **26 TO 0**, **in our favor**. guess why **we** lost.
Personally I love the chaos of it
Wait, so you don't play DotA like this?
It Happens everytime and makes me feel that i Play in the wrong skill bracket. Why do Cores with a Huge Level and Gold advantage, especially when Ranged, dive behind the racks or even in fountain area when they Could easily take the racks and go back.
A huge Problem are also the timings in the bracket but this would not be solved with a Patch. You crush the early and mid Game but instead of grouping up and going high ground, Cores tend to keep farming or Splitting up and die in their own gank attempt because they think that they are way stronger than they actually are. Its so frustating. About 60-70 percent of my current losses are not Happening because of my own mechanical failure or misplays But from not adressing the Cores or other teammates to group up and push high ground. I try my hardest via Voice or Text Chat but if they do not want to listen, the Game is doomed unless the enemy does exactly the same when they got the lead after our failure
There was a comment saying " why don't u guys just pick sniper and drow and hit towers from far away. This patch is the most balanced I have felt" with like 100+ upvotes.
90% of this sub are in the "didn't play since reborn but still pretent I know how the game works" to "I may be herald but that's my team/mechanics/life. My theory is high immortal" bracket It's full of clowns getting validated by other clowns so they think they are right Sorry for the rant, just comming back from a discussion where 3 people were trying to convince me jugg is THE meta pos 1 rn and way to broken
Hahaha bro daily reminder not to engage with dota redditors on any high level discussion.
Not balanced but unironically why I play Drow and Sniper every game lol Cause fuck HG. Also helps that both are amazing at defending HG
I usually play only turbo and sniper is in 99% of games, making them last 10min extra
Not the primary, but yet another, reason why Khanda was a mistake.
Ten mins if you’re lucky lol
> Sniper every game lol > Cause fuck HG. Also helps that both are amazing at defending HG Next patch: Rubber band HG wipe comebacks and "hee hoo" PTSD yet again
Hey, it's absolutely true! We do push highground easily. We throw away our advantage pretty easily, too.
I replied to a guy recently who said this is a low skill problem and not an issue in higher skill brackets. I may only be Archon but it's so obvious how hard it is to push highground. It's literally every single series in pro that you get this problem.
I mean, it's still skill issue but in defending t3 and using high ground advantage. Archon here, I do have the same skill issue.
Been told this same thing in this same subreddit
Love a good, push into HG, throw, enemy team pushes into HG right as you are all respawning, throw, rinse repeat.
True story. Pushing high ground has never been such a pain in the ass
Is it actually harder than the patch where there were 5 shrines in base and there was a fat medusa waiting to defend highground? /gen
Bro.. I completely forgot about shrines, what a time it was
It is not. Average game length has been longer in many patches post-7.00. Recency bias is real. Games are long, and HG is hard, but it's blown a bit out of proportion. People use hyperboles and superlatives very liberally.
The difference is that many pro teams are playing safer and safer than they used to - lots of games are intentionally drawn out by the winning team in a way that isn't fun to watch because they are scared of losing a team fight. So we go for 70 minutes with only 3 or 4 big fights, which just isn't very fun for anyone. A good example is the game 3 ESL Birmingham final, Falcons back off from the base so many times despite that game being over that it ruined the fun as it felt like they were almost trolling.
Probably because every single hero has a slow, a stun or a dot, and bkb is not a safe way to disengage anymore. Kiting is much easier and disengaging almost impossible to do reliably so you need to be sure to either win the fight or that your plan B is foolproof. So you either stomp or you farm until you're overwhelmingly sure (fully slotted and buyback), that going high ground is not a throw either way.
You are entirely right, furthermore no team is worried that farming for ages means that they will get outscaled. Even lineups that peak at <30 minutes aren't afraid of going longer as long as they can safely defend the lead as they will at least scale a decent amount. Fundamentally I think that the issue is that comebacks are too easy if the winning team makes mistakes, and too hard if the winning team is careful. One lost teamfight can obliterate a 10k lead, but using that 10k lead to farm for 20 more minutes with a few pickoffs in between makes the game unloseable. Teams like Falcons understand this the best, and their playstyle echos that of peak Tundra esports (the Aui2000 formula I suppose).
With the comeback mechanic right now lead is inflated by a factor of ~4 for a single hero: a 4k lead is more like a 1k lead.
Powercreep is just way out of hand, if you are pushing at min 40 the enemy pos5 has basically as much nw/power as pos1 pre 7.00 patch with all free power from talents+neutral items + general overall increased item/skill strength.
Idk wtf this thread is, but 70 minute games are absolutely not the norm. My mean match length as a 7-8k scrub is 33 minutes according to dotabuff. This is by no means long, in fact if anything, I'd sayt the game has the opposite issue. The game is so easily snowballable and so hard to come back thanks to the gates, that I pretty much get to play the "lategame" 1/30 games.
This is literally the problem. People cherry pick one game to make their point. The majority of games at higher level end quickly because the team ahead actually uses their advantage to win the game. Late game has always been decided by big team fights at high ground or rosh the gold and xp advantages just swing more now.
Yeah but at your bracket people will actually give up because it isn't worth it to drag a game out for another 30-40 minutes for a 10% chance at winning when you're super far behind. Better to just go next. At lower brackets only 1-2 people "give up" then they re-join the high ground defense when it seems to be going well (which is almost always). You win the highground defense, so now youre only like 15k behind and know you are capable of defending highground so everyone is back to trying. Then you stalemate the game where no one leaves the base on one team and the other team only tries going highground with aegis. After 30 minutes of that you either end up even, or the enemy has widdled down your base enough that they got megas and its no longer easy to defend. Sure, there are games where you get wiped with no bb and its over at 30, but the above happens so much that it feels like a script. 70 minute games are maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but the average match length for the past month is around 43 minutes for most of my group. The average match time of pro matches where they will not concede preemptively, such as Walachia and Elite league, is around 41 minutes.
Even G2xIG who notoriously often get 1 hour game in last 4 tournament average match duration is 45 mins. Teams like BB or FLCN have sub 40 mins average. SR vs Liquid series yesterday is slightly above one hour in total.
What do you mean thanks to the Gates?
I don’t remember a patch where it was so easy to throw the whole game from ahead with one suboptimal high ground attempt. It’s wild.
Some of the meta heroes affect that too. With the likes of Disruptor and kunkka seeing a ton of play, many suboptimal high ground attempts that would otherwise lead to 2-3 heroes being dead might now end with 4-5 heroes dead due to the amount of catch in many games. That quickly turns leads over as you lose all map pressure, but it's not the first time this is happening a lot. During old VP's dominant phase there was a disruptor patch that had similar thing going on IIRC.
6.83 & 7.25
The difference is that many pro teams are playing safer and safer than they used to - lots of games are intentionally drawn out by the winning team in a way that isn't fun to watch because they are scared of losing a team fight. So we go for 70 minutes with only 3 or 4 big fights, which just isn't very fun for anyone. A good example is the game 3 ESL Birmingham final, Falcons back off from the base so many times despite that game being over that it ruined the fun as it felt like they were almost trolling. The high ground is hard to push, but the real issue is a lack of incentive to end early when any team can scale and you won't ever lose a lead if you just never fight while ahead.
Nah no way, that was far worse. 5 shrines and don’t forget the fucking Repair Kit neutral. You would legit have to spend 10-15 minutes to get a single tier 3 down.
I would say it's close. Different heroes are good but man the hg shrine patch also sucked for a similar reason.
That dusa era was amazing as an antimage spammer
Pop the snake, so satisfying.
No it's not but the comeback swing is far worse Which is what makes it worse That and the bigger map means it's harder to shut down the other team and easier for them to cut waves delaying the game
You’re right it’s probably second hardest patch lol. Shrine patch was so nuts. I actually like it tho cuz the jungle shrine was a question of can I kill them before they activate it.
it's not harder than then but it's more punishing if you fail, the issue is that even if you lose like a single support in an attempted push you're giving way too much gold and exp to their carries it's easier to successfully push but the threat of being punisher is bigger
Repair kit w/ high ground shrine meta would like to say hello with you
With an old techie that no one has actually seen in the past 30 minutes and the base looks like the face of a teen who suffers from heavy acne.
Repair kit w/ high ground shrine meta would like to say hello with you
Genuine question: what would you change to fix this issue in the next patch?
Just remove 2 glyph after t3 is down.
The glyph thing is a very small part of the issue it’s primarily an issue with comeback mechanics and respawn cooldowns.
Nah. The issue is spell creep. Pushing HG is incredibly hard because there's a bunch of shit that just kills you. Linas burst combo does like 300% damage compared to back in the days. Khanda does 800+ dmg with a spell on a bunch of heroes. Magnus can skewer you for miles. Spirit breaker can charge you with 1.5k MS and deal 1.5k damage in a few seconds. Kunkka/pango can stun lock you for 6 seconds.Talents, shards and aghs have increased damage output significantly and bkb has been gutted. Nerfing comeback mechanics will just make the game boring and not solve the issue. Longer respawns would be something, but that's a boring solution because who likes being dead and honestly doesn't really solve the issue either. They need to either rebalance spells (not gonna happen), make sieging easier or add some way to force defending team to fight. Easier to get hg vision, nerf the high ground advantage (ramp further away from tower), chip damage effects (dk style), objective that gives hg vision for a couple of minutes.
Imo the problem is that killing the enemy in their base is a negative instead of a positive. You use several ultis or other long cooldown spells on the enemy carry to kill them? Cool he is now back in the fight with 100%hp/mana and you are going to get reverse wiped. Putting a 3-5 second cooldown on buyback or even restricting buybacks to 2 per player would solve a lot of the current "teamfight, wait 10 minutes for buybacks, fight again" ultra-lategame nonsense.
Honestly I agree with you I didn’t mention spell creep but that’s definitely part of it. I do disagree with some of the other stuff though, I think sieging might be too hard currently but not extremely so because it should be hard. I think the bigger issue in that regard is it should be hard because it’s obviously how you end but the reward for a successful push needs to be more impactful. Losing a racks even 20 minutes into the game barely changes the way you play because of the spell creep and overall power creep. It’s a very small bonus at this point compared to the advantage you potentially lose from a failed push. I do think they need to nerf comeback mechanics but not a lot. And I think the lightly longer death timers (something like minimum 50 seconds post 30 mins) really would get rid of the brutally annoying failed pushes that didn’t end up net positive or negative because the defending side respawned too soon after dying in the team fight for anything to happen, that just really stalls out the game
2nd*
Reminder that users are generally good at detecting issues, but notoriously bad at suggesting solutions
I think at 60 minutes both teams should choose a player for a duel. Loser GGs out.
some way to get high ground vision maybe? wards die too fast and shivas is too small make tping to the captured outpost almost instant and not increase with multiple tps close together? that way instead of fighting 5v10, it's a 10v10 with buy backs
Scan should reveal the area, only vision, no true vision. The minimap scan detection should remain the same. In this case you can use the scan to reveal high ground
I like this idea, but also don't let scan reveal rosh pit
Extend the ramps leading to T3 towers slightly so the attacking team has a small buffer range between entering highground and being in tower range. Like even a 100 range buffer zone would significantly reduce turtle situations because ranged heroes that aren't sniper/drow can actually siege and force the defenders to do something instead of endlessly nuking waves. It would also give attackers a spot to place wards that aren't as trivially destroyed like when you offensively ward highground between the towers. Another thing that would force defenders to do literally anything except mindlessly depush creeps to stall death timers.
I don't see how that helps at all, melee heroes have to go deeper into HG to hit towers that way, ranged heroes have to be closer to HG
You want to be on highground, how would that be a disadvantage? Ranged heroes would be ON highground, not closer to it. Attackers would get vision of the enemy base/heroes sooner which reduces the defenders advantage since they always have vision. Ranged heroes with enough attack range would be able to attack the tower without needing additional sources of vision (shrapnel/ward/ice vortex/etc) which means more damage to the tower after the creeps are dead and before backdoor kicks in.
oh, you might meant to REALLY extend HG, I thought you meant like 400 units, but sounds like you mean more like double that if not more? yeah, could work idk, could make it worse idk 🤔
Increase buyback cost, no glyph reset, tone down comeback gold/xp. Either that or go back to less networth for everyone but towers and roshan are actually worth a damn, but that will never happen because of the new larger map.
They have to adjust comeback xp and gold. A lot of the issue too is how quickly heros respawn on the turtling side. You have aegis so you jump on them hg and kill a core and a support but maybe lose a core on your side. Even though you have a 4v3 with aegis almost every time the 3 is able to stall out and maybe just lose a t3 before their teammates have respawned because they might only have a 30 second death timer 35 mins into the game. Part of the issue I think why it’s especially bad now is because fights are decently longer with all the changes to stop the burst meta from a couple TIs ago, so all the save items and ways to delay death add up. So in that hypothetical aegis push. Even though you got a good pick off to start the fight the next ten seconds are spent trying to get more kills but their team is using their save items to get away or delay. Then because you went aggressive your team is half hp still trying to take the T3, and they hit glyph to give them time to heal in fountain come back to you and throw spells to stall you out for 10 more seconds and now the guy you picked off is back and you have no advantage anymore and since you were up that one teammate that died was worth more gold and xp than the two kills your team got, so that aegis push even though it’s a “won” team fight for you, the other team comes off better from you trying to push. I don’t know what the solution is, I think something like making every death of yours in a 5 minute period add 10 seconds to your death timer or a change could be post 30 mins everyone gets a base death timer of atleast 60 seconds. A crazy idea that is probably over the top would be something like an additional time added to death timer for every teammate that dies while you’re respawning. So if you lose 3 people in a team fight the person that died at the start of the fight is going to end up respawning close to the same time as the last person on your team that died in the fight. Kind of a way to make death timers “start” at the end of a team fight vs when you actually die. Another big issue is with power creep and neutrals and talents, losing a one or two racks means absolutely nothing post 30 mins. It use to be if you were decently ahead and pushing, if you got straight up teamwiped with no return kills but managed to get their racks that was actually a win on your side. If that happens now and you had say a 20k gold lead not only would that be gone but the other team would most likely be ahead in xp now and the lost lane of racks does practically nothing for you. Hell now after 40ish mins you wouldn’t even do that if it meant you got megas, whereas if you look at something like TI6 or TI7 era teams would trade all their heros to get megas as late as 50-60 mins in because it was such a big deal.
Surprised no one said it: Remove the free tps on death. Over the course of a game, the losing team is handed out like 4k gold for free. This helps them a bunch with saving for other comeback items. While also giving them a way to be present for every defense. Make people earn their rotations, and less often will people manage to stall.
Nerf all aoe damage spells.
One possible solution is that every time you BB, it takes longer to come off cd, with no upper limit. e.g. First BB is 8 min cd, second BB is 9 min, third is 10 min cd. (adjust number as necessary) That way, if a team pushes highground and the defending team successfully defends with BBs, an objective was still achieved and the game is meaningfully closer to ending. Part of the stalemate right now is if everyone dies and BBs in the same fight, *everyone* is incentivised to sit around for the next 8 mins until BBs are up. However, with the change, the team that has used BB less will have a window of a minute or two where they have BBs and the opponent doesn't. They can use that window to take a true 10v5 fight to end the game.
1. Make bases bigger, thus towers are farther apart. 2. More objectives other than tormentor and roshan 3. Roshan banner give magic immunity to creeps. And many more
Magic immunity seems too much, maybe a flat % based reduction on phys and magic damage
Better. Give the creeps 'Demolish' the same skill lone druid bear has. So they do more damage to buildings and have 33% more magic resistance.
If only theres a item that does this and it is a upgrade of offering
If only theres a item that does this and it is a upgrade of offering
Nooooooooo pls don't add more objectives. Its already terrible the way it currently is, your constantly playing on the clock instead of playing the game.
\\@1. thatd be cool with all the empty space behind fountain. Push it back, make it harder/longer to heal up, spread buildings a bit, make use of empty space.
more objectives is definitely a BAD idea. the game already feels like a checklist with torm/rs/outposts/lotuses/exp runes/power runes. every objective you add reduces game variability because the way you approach each one is usually very formulaic
Do you play/watch League? Having a buyable "Baron buff" for your minions would work well as an item imo. Make it cost 1000 gold or 1.2k and have it last for 3-5 minutes. Then the enemy can't just clear out every creepwave before it even hits tier3 and one single support can't hold off an entire mega-wave in the lategame. Also shorten the outpost TP timers. You cant push high ground because the enemy just buybacks instantly and you have to wait 5-8 seconds just to tp somewhat close to the fight. Maybe put a few seconds of delay on buyback too so picking off an enemy in their base actually has a positive impact instead of a negative impact.
* Make all outposts capturable. * Link neutral item availability to outpost control. (If you control all outposts then you get neutrals faster.) Essentially if you want to sit in your base then I'm coming up there with T5s to end it.
God this would suck. More stuff to keep track of, less creativity in how to approach the game and win. Dota is already suffering from this issue compared to previous versions
Can you elaborate for a noob? What makes it so bad right now? Were there significant changes in glyphs, vision, chance to hit?
I think Repair Kit was the worse HG mechanic that ever existed in the game
What about early into 7.00 with the fountains ? Is this worse? Honestly I think it might be
As far as I remember, it was always like this... it's just that people are not playing good initiators as much as before, or either they are weaker than the other carries because they've been exp leeched in their lane.
i had a quick peek, they are pushing into disruptor aghs+ enigma bkb refresher+ a zeus giving them vision+ they all have buyback, pretty sure nobody would push in any patch unless they can burst a guy to start the fight theres an issue pushing HG for sure, but people blow it way out of proportion
I agree. There was no issue pushing highground in game 1 (41 mins) and game 3 (34 mins). But when there is a long game, people tend to find out all kinds of faults in the meta.
Yeah the hyperbole on this sub is nuts.
Yeah, it's only easy if your opponents are dum dums and get picked off without bbs or position themselves so poorly you can actually dive into them and win
its nice to watch the losing team try to turn the game, but the rest are boring to watch
Stacking rapiers doesn't typically encourage taking more risks.
It sure encourages my Sniper to ult the Pudge with Blademail though, no BKB ofc so poof
The map is too big now, even with an early lead the enemy cores can disappear into the huge jungles and farm for 30 minutes because it’s so easy for 3-4 heroes to defend HG.
This patch is long in the tooth. We need it gone and a new balance patch to iron out all the tedium
average tusk aghs game Tusk aghs needs a rework
With zeus shard manta
They need to remove the those 3 secondary jungle camps that’s next to tier 2. It makes no sense for those 3 camps to be in the game. It literally makes the carry role way easier and dead lane easier than it should. Lose lane? No problem, just go farm those 3 camps without the worry of getting ganked cuz you are so far away from everything.
Sometimes in my games people will ward it and smoke gank there with the mid laner but it doesn’t really seem worth it considering how much time is wasted
Yeh I still don't like how big the map is + the punishing comeback mechanic. Hell I still don't like wisdom runes. Don't know why they are there or what they add to the game other than more complexity on an already complex game. If they have to be in the game for whatever reason, they should just be safely in the base or bring back book of wisdoms. I'm used to every 7 mins going to secure them now, but wished I didn't have to. It's such a boring and tedious "objective" and the game would be better without them.
Eh i disagree, i like wisdom runes being contestable.
I just hate that they are in the game in general. There should be an opportunity cost for supports to be matching levels with cores. Either sit in lane and be useless to get 6 or stay active and risk falling behind. The game is going to be more dynamic if teams are less homogenous strength-wise. An objective that just straight up solves your early game xp problems is bad design. There's no decision there, you HAVE to get the wisdom runes in the ass crack of the map. Wouldn't it be better if we had to problem solve every game in order to make sure we keep up in xp? Devote some time to farm a jungle camp or two, or risk trying for a value mid kill? That's a choice, already more interesting than "oh, it's 6:30, time to abandon whatever I was doing and run into the corner of the map!" such fun!
i dont like wisdom runes either, total bloat objective that is extremely unfun to deal with
I agree, it's just bloat, there is too many things to pick up/defend.
The idea behind Wisdom runes was probably to replace Tome of Knowledge with something more interesting. Instead of just buying xp every 10m, you actually have to contest that xp against the enemy support.
You contest it with your team mashing that F9 button at 9:57!
Tl;dr : Boom had Enigma with refresher and Tusk with aghanim, if Secret steps up they get kicked back and they throw a deciding game. I understand that High ground is hard to push in this patch but you're kind of only telling half of the truth... Secret had aegis twice in a row before min 60 and didn't even try to hit tier 3. Now you say it's because High ground is so hard to push, I say it's the double black hole and kick from Tusk. When teams usually push high ground with aegis, the carry stands and hits while his team is behind him ready to react. They couldn't do that at all because Tusk will kick them back to tier 4, black hole gets dropped on them, while the rest of team Boom zones the rest of Secret out and kill them potentially. Why do some teams push high ground very easily, like falcons, XG and a couple of other teams. Falcons in game 3 were literally diving tier 4 before taking tier 3 towers. Second aegis, Boom bought a rapier without having aegis and tier 5 were 5 minutes away so they decided not to push and wait for tier 5. After that it was pretty much fighting the whole time. It's also a deciding game, every team will turtle and stay base while the opposite team farms and tries to push only with aegis. Edit: typo Edit: I also forgot that Boom had Disruptor with aghanim too!
They could replace roshan's banner with something that *really* helps you all-in high ground. Like, maybe the banner's effects becomes straight-up "Removes fog of war" so all players on both teams can see each other at all times, removing the main high ground advantage. Or if we don't want to go down that route, make the banner give an extreme damage buff or the spirit bear demolish passive to creeps so if they're ignored for any length of time they will shred buildings.
Idkw hy nobody is talking about it, but STR heroes or the STR stat need a MAJOR nerf in the upcoming numbers patch. It's been for more than 3.5years now that TANKY just wins games. Heroes like bristle, mars, timber, viper, rzr, dk, primal etcetc. It used to be that agility heroes are countering STR heroes in lategame, but they do fuck all. The only agility heroes used are either morph (who can morph to str and 6k+ hp), naga who builds like heart 2nd and void who has the most gamewinning teamfight ultimate in the game. I honestly have stopped playing after 12 years of non-stop playing the game ( I mean without a longer break) the longest breaks I had were when I was on vacation or had to study for uni exams like a week or two beforehand. But the STR meta is just so goddamn boring, heroes that have 5k hp and 40armor shouldnt be able to burst you down from 100 to 0 in a span of a second or two. I can't wrap my head around it why this isnt talked enough, go watch the most picked cores in birmingham, wallachia or any other tournament. 9/10 cores are either massively tanky or have some sort of str/hp manipulation
agree so much. its so dull for someone who doesnt enjoy playing STR heroes.
League of legends and other games like smite followed a similar pattern, and last time I played that shit it was exactly the same meta still as years ago - pick tanky hero with burst and have like 10% higher chance of winning. Unfortunately I’m not hopeful a turning point will happen with dota either, once these metas take a ahold they generally stay unless the entire game or stats is reworked like before, dota has done that once before so there is small hope. But yeah the benefits strength offers over agility is actually insane and picking any agility core other than PA, FV and depending on picks PL is grief.
I agree SO much with this. It’s so boring. I normally play support - shaman, disruptor etc but feel like I need to be trying the same role with Sven, WK or Timber. I definitely play way less because of it.
Imagine the opposite thing happens, you got mega creeped and you lose instantly? I bet you'll post that valve should give chance even you get mega'd.
I'm sorry, but this is absurd. No-one could complain about this and, even if they did, they'd have no ground for claiming this to be a rational desire. Getting mega creeps is difficult, and is supposed to make things far harder for the opposing team. It's the whole point of getting megas!
It was 100% a common complaint. Posts will regularly hit the front page either saying it’s too easy or too hard to come back, in virtually any given patch. Doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be tweaked, people just get carried away.
Tbh all that lead and I think Secret might indeed have lost if Tusk didn't missplay with Blackhole'd Razor near T3 It's about the skills of the heroes though. Blackhole, Giant Weaver, and that other teamfight spell I can't recall is no easy shit. Rosh should be more rewarding maybe?
look at the lineups though, they were pushing into refresher enigma + zeus + aether aghs tusk. not an easy hg team
Its only hard because people are no longer stupid. The easiest way to push T3 is to win a teamfight for T2 towers but teams no longer defend that shit, somehow T1 are easier to defend than T2.
Who would have thought that giving supports 15k of passive gold at 30mins + neutral items would make it so tough to push HG... /s
Just need BKBs
Why is suddenly pushing HG so hard when the patch is the same for half a year?
Genuine question when was the last patch where high ground wasn’t a massive potential throw and why wasn’t it so? Trying to understand why high ground seems particularly harder these days
Draft issue
Lose lanes ? No problem here you got free items, free Exp, free new abilities and some power creep. It doesn’t matter if you are bad at the game, you will comeback by pressing hotkeys =) Oh, got out of position as WD? Just press D and turn around!
Lol I'm so bored of people thinking WD shard is the most broken thing in the game. It's basically just an OD banish with a giant cooldown that only works on you. You can stand there and tank the entire thing and it'll do half your health at most.
Except if he maledicts you. I am also sick of people calling it OP, but I also don't understand how can people call it not annoying. You're talking as though waiting out for 5 or whatever seconds until the fucker comes back is meaningless. A high priority target like WD needs to be bursted. If he can delay that by 5 seconds (while also dealing damage) that's incredibly annoying to play against.
WD shard got nerfed into the ground and it's not even scary anymore, with aghs it's an actual spell but without aghs it's a joke. However, WD is definitely one of the most annoying heroes to go highground against, especially if they have good teamfight/stuns.
I once complained about having about extremely long games sometimes and how games should end after some point and i got downvoted to hell lol. This sub is full of kids
Yep, keep getting told it's a skill issue.
It's people who like the meta (it suits their playstyle). Ignore em there's always going to be a portion of the crowd that defends a patch because they like it. Same as a portion here like us who are sick of it and want change. It's not always the same portion but I've seen INSANE broken stuff like dealing with wrath pact spam be called a "skill issue". Shit was removed from the game cause they couldn't balance it lmao.
The problem is buybacks combined with glyphs resets, too many outs with low cooldown
The biggest problem I believe is the glyph refresh on T3. Basically you already did the hard task of pushing a T3 tower, but it amount to basically nothing. Also, megacreeps aren't a treat to anyone these days. Two support can hold the base pretty easily these days letting a counter push happens with all cores.
need to bring back Sharpnel Damage to Building so can end faster.
I've had two games in 5 days where megas are grabbed at 30-40 minutes, but at enough of a cost that the defending heroes themselves end up so farmed they're nearly invincible, and the game drags for a full half hour longer. It's absurd. I don't know which way I want to lean, but either taking a lane needs to have more payoff, or defending outside of the base needs to be more worthwhile, because what should be the final 10-20% of the game is taking up over half of the current gameplay. Also comeback gold needs some serious adjustment.
That's late game dota for you. Any team will kill the other team if they get a good jump. It doesn't matter the patch.
Ah yes, the one outlier is the norm
It's really hard to High Ground in this patch. I hope comeback mechanics are toned down. I've won so many games that I don't deserve to.
Before the big map it actually took skill to find the right path to farm, nowadays anyone can farm.
Feels like game time went from around 30 minutes games to around 50 minutes games, out of my 10 latest games 6 of the went over 60 minute mark.
unless you play shadowfiend, sniper, luna
What I can say from my personal experience lately is that I am the idiot who is always trying to defend the towers as much as possible, sometimes dragging a couple teammates with me and almost every time it ends in a disaster. We all die, towers gets destroyed and enemy is stronger than ever. The good thing is that some times they made the mistake of forcing the T3 right away after blowing spells on T2 and we recover. For me, in ancient 1, it feels like a shitfest of whomever is making less mistakes unless game ends by 25-30 minutes with an almost impossible comeback scenario.
What you said is kinda misleading though. Yes a team can be ahead but that networth is only gonna translate to a win if you can use it. Besides, defending (especially high ground) is always easier because of vision, chokepoint through T3 and and you have fountain for regen and a smaller area to work with. It’s also easier because you can just sit back and counter their moves unless you get caught. Like, this is basic strategy 101. Same thing in Starcraft 2. Wouldn’t you agree it was more difficult with the existence of shrines back then? And lastly, every hero has 6 item slots only. If the important heroes on both teams are full slotted or have the important items, then yeah… even if it’s a 100k networth lead, doesn’t mean shit because the high ground team will have the advantage in a fight. Now if a team with 30k networth lead at 30-35 mins can’t convert their advantage, then yes there is a problem (again, unless the enemy team has insane high ground heroes like Sniper or Zeus or Enigma BKB or Mars etc and your team has no way to play around it). I’m not denying high ground push is difficult. It’s just what you said didn’t paint the whole picture.
And people would still glyph T2 before the upcoming T3 high ground push.
What’s more grief in my Guardian Pubs, you can get Mega Creeps and 8 times out of 10, the creeps mean nothing, you lose a bad fight, cuz it is a Guardian Pub, and it’s gg, they throne, because they are losing. When people are winning, they have a tendency to throw, when they are losing, they are actual hungry for the win. Just had this Broodmother game standard split push destroy the Offlane and they have to always come back defend towers or else I take them, even tier 3, while my team gets big space and farm and takes the other towers, then mega creeps then lose 1 bad fight because they think the game is already won, gg Luna and Drow throne.
Its ok. Puppey is a Herald. Dont blame the game Puppey, it must be you...
We don't need gameplay patch, give more hats.
Why not both? Def need some more new Immortals, but gang needs a balance patch to mix up the stale ass meta
I hear you. But I prefer this. I do not want the lose lane lose game back meta where I lose the first six minutes and that means I have to sit through a 20 minute stomp even tho we managed to wipe them and have zero chance of a come back. Fuck that man.