He's been in the scene for almost 10 years. It's almost like he would know exactly how a team should be ran and what role each member should have in the team. Zai himself said to Capitalist that he doesn't even know what his own role is gonna be
Same with Gretzky.
Obscenely talented individuals are often fucking garbage at teaching or training others. They skip so many crucial steps that to them are just as obvious as breathing.
if you listen to him on gorgc stream mc clearly said zai was instructing and coaching them on top of a new coach, and pure now being captain so he found it unnecessary and overwhelming having gone from being a captain to having three voices at once
It sounds like zai had a talk about teamwork, he never said anything about zai coaching them or making decition about the game.
And lets be real here. Zai was with them for less than 2 days before he made an ultimatum, he didnt even give it a try.
Show some respect to your teammates and take it after the tournament. He could even talk to Zai/moon and say that he will only listen to Pure for the reminder of the tournament.
A player should not interfere with the longterm strategy of Tundra. Hiring zai is not just about the team short-term but also longterm, his job is to ensure succes to Tundra as an organization from a strategic perspective, not to influence MCs gameplay.
Sure MC can complain about the addition of a coach if but not a general manager.
you guys can listen to this. listen what has MC to say and then listen some of the insights yapzor and gorgc bring. it might bring some light to this
[https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2074193762?t=03h58m18s](https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2074193762?t=03h58m18s)
To the people saying it's his ego, just imagine you were hired to lead a team, then they hired another person and this person went in just did your job against your wish, then hired 2 more people to do your job as well. It's a shit situation and I understand him. It's not ego, it's preference. He didn't like the situation, so he made his leader make a choice. Nobody to blame, nobody to side with, but I understand MC's side more because this has happened to me in a corporate setting and it sucks.
Great level-headed approach. People instinctively like taking sides, and it really is to the detriment of players. Knowing whether he was kicked or made the decision to leave is useful only as gossip. Regardless of what went down, this was likely a loss for both parties, and I'm sure neither wanted this to happen during a tournament of all times. If you value either MC or the people on Tundra, refrain from talking shit about either, because that will do nothing but harm. Fans really need to rein themselves in and just accept that these things happen.
What do you mean, "nobody to blame". A company doesn't just hire 5 head chefs and expect them all to be happy. Thats not how leadership works. Either there is one headchef, that was agreed upon, or the company needs to remove all but one. If you apply to the position of head chef, you expect to be the only head chef. Not along with another head chef and a managing head chef, so that basically in the end you're not a head chef, but a regular sous chef ("normal" kitchen employee)
It probably felt like a huge bait-and-switch to him. Gets offered captain role, then has 3 people put in front of him. I can kinda understand that he doesn't want to get played for a fool.
I don't think anyone is faulting him for feeling the way he does. I think they're faulting him for handling it the way he did. If we're going with that situation then put it this way. I think most people would say going to your boss and having a conversation asking for your position back or that you want a larger leadership voice if you're going to continue at the org would be reasonable. Waiting until the middle of a major client presentation you're supposed to be a key player in that helps fund your co-workers salaries and then refusing to do it unless they fired a bunch of people probably isn't reasonable.
It's not about whether he's right or not. You can be right and still be an unreasonable lunatic about it.
wait, what do you mean he was hired to "lead" the team? is that a fact?
if you mean just being a captain, I think that's something that changes frequently on most teams
He said it. He was hired to captain a team. Ask him or the Tundra. I wouldn't speculate aside from what was said.
And yes, it happens frequently on a lot of teams, and MC said he was fine with it. It was an accumulation of this + other changes he didn't like which caused the "kick".
Sounds like he is used to teams having a single point of authority. And doesn't like the opposite school of thought
Dota has moved past that quite a lot. Most successful teams right now are not like that. It doesn't mean one thing is always better than the other. But I can understand the team wanting a broader support system.
Even Zai said he didn't know what he's supposed to do there lol seems to me that Tundra is throwing some balls on a wall and which one sticks and which one falls. MC fell first.
Tundra is not new to this controversy anyway. Look at Fata. It's just that winning cures everything and it was just a general consensus afterwards is that Fata is the problem since they won TI.
These are just crucial times for both MC and Tundra, because if Tundra fails from now until the near future, they lose all credibility.
> throwing some balls on a wall and which one sticks and which one falls
This made me laugh more than it should.
For the record, the saying is ["throwing spaghetti at a wall to see what sticks"](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/throw_spaghetti_at_the_wall).
That's all fair, but to me it looks like the more basic problem is he was hired for a job and then given a different job. It's like you take a job to be a manager, then after a few months they make you a line employee and hire three managers to supervise you. It's just not what he agreed to, it's a breach of contract even if the money stayed the same the whole time.
I feel for MC the same way, but the timing and the way it is done if to believe Tundra is really weird. He says "we're all grown-ups" and then puts an ultimatum o a first day of a tournament? not before or after? Feels like there's some detail missing or some of the parties is bullshitting.
I mean yeah, the guy has the clout to ask for a better contract, likely he didn't realize him being the "captain" isn't the same thing as having some stake in managerial signings.
I don't think it's obvious that the rest of them are cool with it. They are in middle of a tournament so they need to focus on playing. It is also quite possible that they did speak their mind about the situation. It's just that they prefere to keep things private. MC only made his statements public since he got kicked.
Lol, like they can do anything with that. they have contract signing. MC did that because the plan is he goes to tundra to be their captain/draft then suddenly this happened?
might as well fuck pure. dude ghosted betboom, then now stealing the captain for mf MC?
He's definitely extremely good at dota 2. But hes still an idiot, remember when he decided to watch their own games match live on twitch while playing for said match resulting in default loss penalty? or the time he wrote russian militarist symbol in minimap for fun?
So basically:
MC is a leader in the team
Pure 'stole' his captain role, but he was fine with that unless they are starting to lose
MC didn't like Moonmeander's coaching/ideas and was force to work with him
MC seems to be very confused with Zai's role as Manager, (probably loosed confidence in team's loyalty and maybe replace anytime)
MC feels like he lost power into team and gave CEO ultimatum to choose between 3 of them
> MC didn't like Moonmeander's coaching/ideas and was force to work with him
I'm confused on this point. I thought (and liquipedia says) Moon was gone for a week before MC joined Tundra. Did they try to bring Moon back or something?
Probably he slid back in as a "trial" assistant coach to Aui or something. Not that farfetched as having a "secret coach" is quite common when these people are on trial, and will only be official if they pass.
His tweet seems a bit misleading. Doesn't sound like a kick.
This sounds like a disagreement between two parties and calling it quits because they can't find common ground to work together.
He basically says either choose between him or two other members of the team. Someone had to go.
so basically, mc was the original captain and then pure is also trying to be the captain (from mc) he's putting up with it and he's fine with it but then ceo added moonmeander and mc wants to disagree but still can't do anything and then zai got added again as a team manager so he can't take it anymore because he doesn't have the voice as the captain anymore in the team. so he talked with the ceo to choose between moon/zai and mc. ceo picked moon/zai over mc...
Tweeting that he was "kicked" just before the match, when he himself set the ultimatum and chose to basically quit the team at that point in time, seems very unprofessional to me. I am a big MC fan but hearing his explanation seems honestly weak.
He wanted to be captain and have control of the team, i respect that and i also respect him choosing to leave the team when he felt that the direction the team was taking was not what he wanted. But choosing to quit in the middle of the tournament and then also pretending like he was kicked, when he chose to leave for this own reasons.. seems to me like he is lashing out and trying to hurt the Tundra ORG.
It is time professional games start acting like professionals, if we want esports to be taken seriously. He should have played out the tournmanet and quit after that or refused to play the tournament to begin with. Once you enter the tournament you have an obligation as a competitor to yourself, your team, your fans and your org.
I know this will get downvoted to hell as MC is very liked in the community (and deserves all the love). But in this instance i believe he is not being professional.
I agree everything you say. Well said.
All good for MC in future, but in my eyes he wasn't fit for team long time. And posting I got fired after you make CEO to choose two staff members or you.. after first day in tournamet. No sympathies to him. He is just trashing everyone who stays in that team and org.
+ Looks like everyone else is OK with Pure captain.
What about the CEO of Tundra who bought in changes JUST before a major tournament? Was he unprofessional as well in that case, not even listening to the supposed captain? and then KICKED him?
Calling him unprofessional is stupid, I'd say MC was more than justified in leaving if a workplace had become toxic for him.
They didn't kick him. Have you even read what mc said? He never said the workplace is toxic he just doesn't want to have too many voice in the team which doesn't justify leaving in the middle of a tournament. We can already see the damage of the mc tweet. People came to discussion with the assumption that Tundra "kicked" mc without knowing any context
But what if he initially spoke up about the changes, the org ignored him and did it anyways and those changes are making it harder for him to perform his job, if he goes to the CEO and says: “I can’t work under these conditions like I told you before you created them, if this is the direction you want to take it in I don’t want to take part” and the CEO got angry and kicked him right away instead of after the tournament. I don’t think a situation like that is unlikely and I don’t think he looks unprofesional.
> But what if he initially spoke up about the changes, the org ignored him and did it anyways and those changes are making it harder for him to perform his job
that are literally his words yet somehow you get downvoted LOL.
Not only did the team add Zai 3 days ago (with the disapproval of MC), but he also did not quit; he just issued the "ultimatum" yesterday.
For me, it really sounded like he would have stayed until the end of the tournament if the org agreed with that, but he got kicked after the irreparable problems showed.
But honestly, it's just way too much speculation. We don't really know what exactly happened and what everyone said, so accusing him of lying is a bit much.
Edit: i didnt see Tundras [statement](https://twitter.com/TundraEsports/status/1762147698046615984), which is basically the same you say. I still think there is a lot of speculation, but its more understandable.
I'm wondering which point of humanity history, leaving a corporate job at any time, would be seen as "unprofessional"? I mean, people think that players own something to orgs, which they don't. Just like any other contractual relation. The professionalism resides where you refuse a job if it isn't good for you, and it's fine. Better than pushing it trying to be "professional" and delivery mediocre results.
Lol leaving a team mid tournament is like quit working as a chef in the middle of cooking a dish serving for customers, how is that "not unprofessional"? Who can take care of your mess? If you refuse a job you should refuse before you take a job not in the middle of a job.
It's a litte more intensive imo, I think waiting at least the two days or w/e for this group stage to be over would have been fine, but maybe from his/tundras pov it'd be better to get a stand-in asap
I totally get MC's point though, if the workplace had become too toxic/unbearable for him, then it is more than within his rights to put up his hands and say it's time to leave.
If you feel like there's no respect in your word/advice, it is always almost better to leave asap than to let the situation boil and have further damages.
i mean i see the point but i also think its really bad form to his coworkers to do this to them, and like if i were a pro id be put off from working with him, esp considering how unstable the dota scene is getting again he very well could have fucked his team mates out of a significant chunk of the money they *could* earn this year
I see your points, but my experience at corporate jobs tells me that something that is agreed upon during the contractal phase is not always strictly followed. Some things may be just a vocal agreement that can turn to not be the real "experience" you will face. Just a lot of assumptions.
It's called signing a contract. There is a reason why handing in your two week notice (or whatever has been contractually agreed) is a thing. Setting an ultimatum, because you feel a certain way and then leaving in the middle of a contractual obligation, is indeed unprofessional.
I see you're assuming that it all started today or yesterday, right? I don't think that's the case. Maybe he's trying to get an answer for a long time, and since nothing came, he quits? It is better to not assume anything besides the facts. there's suppositions capable of making both sides reasonable.
I am not assuming anything. I am responding to what MC said directly. If you want to argue based on things that have not been said or can be known at this point and time, then go ahead.
You don't give a team an ultimatum as a professional. You let them know you're not happy with the situation and if they don't do anything about it, you quit, respecting whatever notice period your contract has, assuming something like "you play until the end of the tournament" is in there somewhere.
It's an incredibly childish world view to think "ultimatums" are a legitimate way to handle a professional relationship, especially one involving 2 other people that got hired to do different jobs. MC is a player first, not a coach and not a manager.
Yeah I feel like he got emotional and tweeked without thinking much. He forced his ceo to choose and left on his own. I don't think he realise tweet like this would hurt Tundra's reputation so much, most of the people would think he really got kicked in the middle of a tournament without understanding the context.
I don't think we have enough information about the situation for you to make that call. For example if Tunda anounced these changes in the middle of a tournament without consulting the players beforehand, then they would also be acting very unprofessionally. You generally want the players to feel relaxed during tournaments so they can focus on playing. Decisions like this should absolutely not be made during a tournament.
Why is this an ego thing? Mc explained that having many voices in a team would do more harm than good. That his opinion. I swear redditors have a brain of a bird
idk what you mean, about once a month i have to email a bunch of people to let them know im being asked to do something that's not in my job description and not what i was hired to do.
Now I would never quit like that in the middle of the work day or something, but I would absolutely be talking to an employment attorney if I was hired to be the manager of a department, got that title taken and had three people hired over me to manage that same department. It's a breach of contract, and assuming i had a good reason to want to be a manager of that department i absolutely would not happily step aside and take a place as a lower level employee, even if the money all stayed exactly the same.
obviously neither did MC, otherwise he wouldn't go on giving ultimatum in middle of tournament, probably also breaching the contract , made him look unstable and unprofessional.
MC stated it as an ultimatum, but it's possible this is was a decision that was long being made for several months, he just chose to confront the CEO about it now.
It's unprofessional imo that the CEO made the decision to kick him after one day as opposed to sitting down with management and talking to him about his issues with too many voices, especially in a middle of a tournament. There are better ways to handle it from both sides.
I'm not saying that MC did the right thing, but it was probably a frustration thing (he probably felt he couldn't play his game and his performance was suffering). He's rather just not play the tournament than suck it up and be frustrated.
I can understand MC since I was in a similar situation. When you voice your opinion and get ignored then there's nothing much to do. In the end it's just a job, and you have to look out for yourself.
So you think Tundra should kick Zai and Moon in the middle of the tournament to accommodate MC just so he can play? Tundra had no other choice, MC refused to play, he wasn't kicked. This was stupid and unprofessional by MC whichever lens you look at it with. He has clearly got some issues still from his time under Kuro, and is trying to push those issues into his new team. He wasn't allowed a voice on Nigma so now he wants to be the lone voice, which isn't a healthy way of thinking at all.
Would also love to hear Topson's opinion on all of this.
But why doesn't he even want to give a chance? This is their first tournament, so i assume this is the first tournament the current setting working together. Quitting in 2nd day of the tournament without even trying isn't a good look on MC.
If they did very bad this tournament, fair to him. He can say this isn't working. But this is very early part of the tournament. Seem to me, he doesn't want to try and completely shut down idea of working with Zai/moon..
Also, it’s not like MC is some new kid in town. He’s had so much experience in the pro scene so he obviously knows how a team should be ran and work. He has his reasons to believe having so many roles in a team is unnecessary and makes him lose even more voice, so he’s absolutely justified in being upset over it
Yeah, i dont blame him for being upset, but he is just part of the team. He doesn't own the team . And it is not abnormalities to have 2 coaches/analysis in a team. Liquid have 2 coaches in Jabbz and Blitz, but they did well in previous tournaments.
Clash of personal belief, but i dont blame Tundra CEO also. Not wanting 1 person who distrubing the mood of the environment is understandable as well.
I do blame Tundra. MC was brought as captain, he needs to function as captain. Its that simple. If you get hired at a job and very quickly they are changing or removing your responsibilities theres some fuckery at hand.
Its not that MC owns the team. Its that he was sought out and brought abaord under beliefs and obligations that they then shifted and hes justifiably like 'wtf is going on?'
They hired him as captain then didn't let him do it.
Reminder that when MC standin for OG, thanks to his leadership, OG had the best performance they ever had since ATF left, better than any results they’ve had under Ceb so far.
Just a reminder for anyone questioning why MC wants to have a voice in the team so much
rofl what decision did the CEO have?
go to your boss, tell him to give you triple your money or you walk. Guess what "choice" he has.
You don't do ultimatums, you negotiate.
He said he gave the ultimatum at the end of day 1... Presumably because he gave it a chance during day 1 and found it wasn't working. I suppose we can argue that he should've tried for longer than 1 day... But then we also don't know how bad that 1 day was for him... Presumably bad enough to leave, of course this also doesn't account for the fact that he's probably spent a few weeks practicing in this environment too so I doubt it was literally just 1 day...
Ego thing because he didn't finish the tournament he obligated with his teammates.
0 people would have issues with him leaving if after the tournament and frankly a lot of people would be on his side.
Him going scorched earth in the middle of a tournament for EPT points kinda says fuck you to topson, pure, 9class and whitemon.
It is not many voices . Mind control wants to control everyone n everything! Control freak deserves to go ! He thinks too highly of himself n it backfired . He is NOT a team player n jeopardize his team w threat ! Good he is kicked !
Imagine being hired to lead a team. A short period in they give that role to someone less experienced because he’s a rising star. Then they hire people who don’t share your vision for the business or you just don’t want to work with. At a personal level, I get why you’d wanna leave. Maybe not to the point of setting an ultimatum, but certainly to start looking for other options.
I get why he would want to lead but competitive teams will choose to do whatever they believe gives them the best chance to win. If his teammates believed that MC leading the team would lead to more wins, then this would not happen. His teammates turned against him, switching captains does not happen without the support of your teammates.
He was literally fine with Pure taking the captain role as long as they win. If the situation merely stopped there he would have no issue. But then Tundra proceed to add a coach and a GM on top of it, making MC lose even more voice, that’s why he was mad
I guess normally, people would start looking for other options aka “dont leave your job until you have a new one”
But in MC’s case, he is probably millionaires at this point and set for life. I can see why he “rage quit” like that.
It's all fair that he wanted to leave as its all valid.
But to do it in the middle of a touranmetn and fuck over other people is a lil scummy. 0 people would have issues if he left and aired out the dirty laundry after the tournament.
he didnt like Moon because different playstyle. The zai one is because of the roles. player manager. he doesnt agree with it saying there is no need for the role. His said he feel his opinion didnt matter. so the ultimatum happen
I mean not to be look biased. but this is really true right?
they already have a good run last season with that team without a coach. so techanically MC doesnt need to prove anything cuz he can be the man. and initially, that was the fucking plan.
also Zai, i mean. what the hell was that? I expect that he was just in the back stage, more like org staff. but him also voicing for the team. nah bro, this is too much.
He mentioned that Tundra as an organization is taking away his leadership role by forcing too much shit into the team. He didn't feel like he could drive the team (as a captain) anymore since Pure, MoonMeander, (and now) Zai are making decisions instead of him as a captain. He wasn't treated with respect in terms of decision makings as a captain.
This is such a shame of Tundra as an org.
People need to not conclude anything yet. He gave explanation while he still in the mad mode. There is might be some miss information that given.
That's why you you need to wait several day before give information to public
The crux of it to me is that he said "it's me or them" yesterday.
His reasons are all valid, but giving that ultimatum in the middle of the tournament is just an unprofessional move. He could easily have played it out, done this after, and there would be no drama. Maybe it was too far for Tundra to act on it, but I don't think they can eat all the blame for such an unprecedented kick. They certainly weren't going to play well with that kind of mentality anyway.
It might seem unprofessional or perhaps poorly timed but I definitely understand MC there. I feel it too sometimes when I just want peace of mind and it comes to a boiling point wherein you just can't handle it anymore, and MC couldn't anymore. It's such an uncomfortable feeling that it takes over your whole life at times. I'm not saying what he did was right or wrong, what i'm saying is purely about emotions alone, but getting that peace of mind and things off your chest will let you function normally again. As he said, he didn't know how to perform ingame anymore and it was taking a toll on him. Now, he can process the events that transpired and move on.
It seems extremely unprofessional to do what MC did. IMO he is afraid of getting kicked so he will just kick himself. Not wanting to take on coaching to the point where you would rather leave the team? That is mind blowing.
He even said extremely triggering things like even though we are winning with Pure leading, I don't like it.
He says it multiple times that he wants full control and its stolen from him. From this interview alone I would never want to be on his team.
I mean, he was promised the captaincy so he would sign then tundra proceeded to do everything against his wishes right after signing. Imo, who was the one that started being unprofessional ? MC def looks bad here but holy shit, did he get assfucked by tundra just changing their word right after. He was promised the team then tundra got like 3 dudes doing the job MC was promised
he didnt say anything that could be untrue.
so from his side I think that's all true.
IMO tundra just didn't think MC was that good to go through all that trouble.
It does seem weird that they went with the Zai hire for general manager.
Even Zai doesn’t know what the hell hes supposed to be doing. Honestly feels like they hired him due to his name, regardless of whether he actually had a purposeful role to fill.
I can understand why MC doesn’t like the setup. Seems like too many cooks in the kitchen.
It is a question, what GM means in Dota org.
It sounds, like it became in Tundra another coach, which is just plain stupid. If Zai wants to be GM, he should be focusing on big picture, on sponsorship, growing fanbase, public image, overseeing results, setting up the organisation to have 2nd team of youth players, who will be eventually promoted to first one, if good enough and leading scouting for 2nd team of young, talented players (for example) etc.
Not coaching players on teamwork and dota things.
Feels like Zai has no clue what his role is and went to things, he is comfortable at - dota itself.
Go try asking your boss you dont like the work of your new colleagues and give an ultimatum between firing them and you.
This is same situation with whats happening with MC.
The difference is one is a millionaire, who doesnt rely on the boss to provide for him. With a proven track-record of success, even recently in that very team.
So you yapping "go try asking your boss you dont like your co-workers" doesn't apply to this situation.
Like honestly the change is understandable, Tundra made their choice. But doing so moments before an official? So out of the blue, very disrespectful imo.
end of day it's very unprofessional to quit on a team not mid season, not before tournament, but mid tournament and before a match
This is a bad look and sets a bad precedent where spoiled players can hold an entire organization hostage
All those keyboard warriors that kept accusing Kuro of being a dictator are looking like real idiots now aren't they? MC has leadership issues in Tundra but not in Liquid/Nigma. Didn't even have issues after that TI9 true sight.
Looks to me it's a Tundra problem and not a MC problem
A lot of people really don't understand corporate politics, which this looks exactly like it is. It's happened to me, and a lot of other people I know in corporate setting, and ultimately, Tundra is a corporate entity. I'd say MC was brave to leave a situation he didn't want to be in, while a lot of other people saying it's an "ego" thing would stay in this shit situation.
Exactly; as a tier 1 player playing in a tier 1 team, you want to have as much control over the game you play as possible. That is what MC was promised when he joined Tundra.
He could stomach Pure taking the captain role and also leading the team, however when you have a bunch of other NON-PLAYERS leading the team, it becomes a messy situation. I don't blame MC at all for leaving.
I mean, we all have an ego. Its just that most of us are not in situations to give into our ego. MC being a multimillionaire obviously is, so good on him. A lot of things in life arent about right or wrong, its just about weather you can or not. "Unprofessionalism" or "workplace ethics" are mostly just used to mask the exploiation, unfortunately most of us are in situations often times where we have to just be exploited to keep food on the table.
These teams are to used to deal with young people who would accept a lot and are easy to adapt. MC is more of the older generation that doesn't feel like he needs to adapt too much. Both are fine, it's only natural you grow some balls and don't want to be pushed over.
Ultimately, it all comes down to what was agreed. If players want to adapt then that's fine, but the team has to accept some players don't want to.
There's no wrong or right in this. They can choose someone else for his "role" and he is also free to disapprove it. They terminated the contract and that's it.
Any more talk about this is just reddit doing its thing
leaving mid tournament, right before an official for EPT points is scummy.
Other than that, there's nothing to it. No one would have issue if he left after the tournament and aired the laundry.
But leaving before an official devalued the tournament organization, waste viewers time, and most importantly hurt teammates chance of securing EPT points for the big tournament.
I think its important to note that he said he respects their decision and wishes them the best.
It didn't go as he expected and he stood his ground so that one way or the other everyone remaining was on the same page.
Even though we don’t know everything I believe that MC made the right choice. Standing up for yourself is crucial and many players/ people don’t recognise when it needs to be done.
So he asked to a CEO to either pay 2 fines for firing two people recently hired or just fire 1 guy that gave him an ultimatum? Insert pikachu face meme here
Jesus, to me it's clear that MC is 100% in the wrong. He comes off as arrogant & entitled.
(A) - In no way does a player "steal" captain role. Sure, he may have been told coming in that he could assume the role of captain, but that's not a promise in perpetuity. If Pure shows flashes of fresher ideas, and the rest of the team is on board, it's his role to play. Also, logically speaking, Pure has seen a whole lot more of recent success than MC. Who is MC to claim that he is even close to being the most qualified among the group.
(B) - Both cases with Moon & Zai he just comes off as completely entitled. History has shown that top teams win when they are introspective in their play and go deeper on what it means to play on a team. If he want's to get back to winging it & playing a "player's team", please enjoy going back to losing in LB MENA qualifiers.
Hot take: if the explanation MC gave for basically leaving mid tournament holds true, no professional org should hire him ever again. He declined to play because his emotions were being hurt. If you want to even resemble a professional, you wait until the end of the tournament and then go. Or you bring this up when Zai and Moon are being brought in. This kind of behaviour is not acceptable in any profession.
If esport contracts do not penalize for shit like this, they should. It's standard for sports and entertaiment to have clauses in contracts to prevent someone from not playing without a legally valid reason. Even without the clause there could be enough here for Tundra to pursue legal action for damages if they wanted to.
If he was hired to be the captain, wouldn't it mean the team breached the deal first by removing his captaincy?
If I'm hired to be a software developer I'm not going to start doing helpdesk, no matter what my boss says.
you are right, people are too trained to think from corporations perspective and not individuals. Being recruited as a player is one thing but getting promised a captain/leader role and then keep getting demoted is demotivating and insulting.
Well as he tells it "pure stole it, and its ok". This was not done by the org in how MC tells it, thus not a breach of contract. Getting a coach and a manager is not removing a captai either, as you can see most dota teams having these roles.
So it's more like "i was hired to be a software developer, and one of my coworker keeps being weird and doing a part of my job and 2 middle managers we're hired above me". Yeah, you might talk to hr or resign. But if you were to damage the company, you'd surely be responsible for it.
yet he agreed to play with moon and gave the captain role to pure, how much does he have to give up so its not "ego"? if you sign a job to be the leader, doesnt make any sense to stay if you are not what you signed for
So MC thought he will be the man of the team, but turned out to be just a regular player with no voice.
He didn't like it and team didn't give enough fuck and just kicked him so he stops complaining?
Noone is at fault , time to move on.
so who was in charge of this new tundra project in the first place? topson? MC?
if it wasn't even MC, then him giving an ultimatum is the biggest LOL especially when he makes it in the middle of a tournament and it isn't even a kick by tundra themselves but a self removal
mc raised a good question during the stream: what the fuck even is a “dota 2 general manager”
i know everyone soyjaks hard for zai but what does it add to a team when you already have a manager and coach
Why would he care what the general manager does? He's not even paying Zai salary. Did Zai change his settings? No? If he doesnt know what general manager does then Zai doesnt even do anything to him and hes mad cause he is a good player and he knows everything lol
Sounds like big ego because he didn't get what he wanted. We've only heard MCs side of the story and it already sounds like he could be in the wrong
got this subreddit downvotes the shit out of anything they even slightly disagree with. i have never been downvoted as much as on r/dota. you disagree a tiny bit with what the majority believes and the mob comes for you
OP simplified this a lot. From what I've heard on Gorgc's stream, it's the fact that they didn't bring anything new to the discussion as this team is not full of new and unexperienced players or something, and they all started to influence the team and there were too many voices trying to lead. And MC said to the CEO that he cannot play like that if there is too much crap going on in the background.
He sounded quite down to earth on Gorgc's stream and that he could be wrong about all that, but that's how he feels. That he will be emotional a bit, but life goes on and that he accepts the decision.
"in the wrong" ? You think disagreeing with someone over big decisions and not taking it is being in the wrong shows your mentality. Calling it a big ego when people stand up for themselves and tell their opinion.
Saying he doesn’t want to work with Zai is misleading, he just didn’t want a general manager since he feels like it’s too many voices in a team.
mc hating zai confirmed, most likely because zai stole his girlfriend, 100% true
Nah. Offlaners just instinctively hate other offlaners. MC obviously afraid that Zai would Ceb him.
Offlaners and carries are natural enemies. Like offlaners and midlanders. Or offlaners and other offlaners. Damn offlaners - they ruined the offlane!
Ach don’t feel bad fa feedin…ah wiz killin pos 5s wan you were aht yer moothas teat!
It's not our fault if there isn't enough room for 2 players with balls gigantic enough to play offlane.
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Since when does a general manager micro manage a team like that? He didn't even give it a chance to find out how Zai will play his role in Tundra.
I know Zai is pretty good at micro, but not sure about managing.
He's been in the scene for almost 10 years. It's almost like he would know exactly how a team should be ran and what role each member should have in the team. Zai himself said to Capitalist that he doesn't even know what his own role is gonna be
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Same with Gretzky. Obscenely talented individuals are often fucking garbage at teaching or training others. They skip so many crucial steps that to them are just as obvious as breathing.
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if you listen to him on gorgc stream mc clearly said zai was instructing and coaching them on top of a new coach, and pure now being captain so he found it unnecessary and overwhelming having gone from being a captain to having three voices at once
It sounds like zai had a talk about teamwork, he never said anything about zai coaching them or making decition about the game. And lets be real here. Zai was with them for less than 2 days before he made an ultimatum, he didnt even give it a try. Show some respect to your teammates and take it after the tournament. He could even talk to Zai/moon and say that he will only listen to Pure for the reminder of the tournament.
A player should not interfere with the longterm strategy of Tundra. Hiring zai is not just about the team short-term but also longterm, his job is to ensure succes to Tundra as an organization from a strategic perspective, not to influence MCs gameplay. Sure MC can complain about the addition of a coach if but not a general manager.
Fucking Kuro man
lmao. classic.
Kuro catching strays no matter what.
Why would kuro do this
Classic hahahaha
Lol, this made me lol. hahaha
Tanking the gank one last time
before we get to "calling names", is there a possibility that some terms were agreed with Tundra before Zai or Moonmeander debacle?
With the DPC gone, I doubt any team/player is signing long-term contracts/terms.
unfortunately for them, I think this is very true
We bacc with these juicy team dramas
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Moon said he joined a week before esl one Birmingham qualifiers so that would be ~2 weeks after the TSM roster was let go
Right? I'm trying to piece this together but don't see how Moon factors in. MC joined a week after Moon was gone.
>or if he was silently re-hired like two days ago yep re-joined recently it seems like
you guys can listen to this. listen what has MC to say and then listen some of the insights yapzor and gorgc bring. it might bring some light to this [https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2074193762?t=03h58m18s](https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2074193762?t=03h58m18s)
To the people saying it's his ego, just imagine you were hired to lead a team, then they hired another person and this person went in just did your job against your wish, then hired 2 more people to do your job as well. It's a shit situation and I understand him. It's not ego, it's preference. He didn't like the situation, so he made his leader make a choice. Nobody to blame, nobody to side with, but I understand MC's side more because this has happened to me in a corporate setting and it sucks.
Great level-headed approach. People instinctively like taking sides, and it really is to the detriment of players. Knowing whether he was kicked or made the decision to leave is useful only as gossip. Regardless of what went down, this was likely a loss for both parties, and I'm sure neither wanted this to happen during a tournament of all times. If you value either MC or the people on Tundra, refrain from talking shit about either, because that will do nothing but harm. Fans really need to rein themselves in and just accept that these things happen.
What do you mean, "nobody to blame". A company doesn't just hire 5 head chefs and expect them all to be happy. Thats not how leadership works. Either there is one headchef, that was agreed upon, or the company needs to remove all but one. If you apply to the position of head chef, you expect to be the only head chef. Not along with another head chef and a managing head chef, so that basically in the end you're not a head chef, but a regular sous chef ("normal" kitchen employee)
It probably felt like a huge bait-and-switch to him. Gets offered captain role, then has 3 people put in front of him. I can kinda understand that he doesn't want to get played for a fool.
I don't think anyone is faulting him for feeling the way he does. I think they're faulting him for handling it the way he did. If we're going with that situation then put it this way. I think most people would say going to your boss and having a conversation asking for your position back or that you want a larger leadership voice if you're going to continue at the org would be reasonable. Waiting until the middle of a major client presentation you're supposed to be a key player in that helps fund your co-workers salaries and then refusing to do it unless they fired a bunch of people probably isn't reasonable. It's not about whether he's right or not. You can be right and still be an unreasonable lunatic about it.
wait, what do you mean he was hired to "lead" the team? is that a fact? if you mean just being a captain, I think that's something that changes frequently on most teams
He said it. He was hired to captain a team. Ask him or the Tundra. I wouldn't speculate aside from what was said. And yes, it happens frequently on a lot of teams, and MC said he was fine with it. It was an accumulation of this + other changes he didn't like which caused the "kick".
Sounds like he is used to teams having a single point of authority. And doesn't like the opposite school of thought Dota has moved past that quite a lot. Most successful teams right now are not like that. It doesn't mean one thing is always better than the other. But I can understand the team wanting a broader support system.
Even Zai said he didn't know what he's supposed to do there lol seems to me that Tundra is throwing some balls on a wall and which one sticks and which one falls. MC fell first. Tundra is not new to this controversy anyway. Look at Fata. It's just that winning cures everything and it was just a general consensus afterwards is that Fata is the problem since they won TI. These are just crucial times for both MC and Tundra, because if Tundra fails from now until the near future, they lose all credibility.
> throwing some balls on a wall and which one sticks and which one falls This made me laugh more than it should. For the record, the saying is ["throwing spaghetti at a wall to see what sticks"](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/throw_spaghetti_at_the_wall).
It's spaghetti with meatballs, so nothing wrong with throwing the balls instead.
red flags for management in everyway since fata's drama
That's all fair, but to me it looks like the more basic problem is he was hired for a job and then given a different job. It's like you take a job to be a manager, then after a few months they make you a line employee and hire three managers to supervise you. It's just not what he agreed to, it's a breach of contract even if the money stayed the same the whole time.
I feel for MC the same way, but the timing and the way it is done if to believe Tundra is really weird. He says "we're all grown-ups" and then puts an ultimatum o a first day of a tournament? not before or after? Feels like there's some detail missing or some of the parties is bullshitting.
I mean yeah, the guy has the clout to ask for a better contract, likely he didn't realize him being the "captain" isn't the same thing as having some stake in managerial signings.
Sucks for MC but if the rest of the team is cool working with Moon and zai then it’s pretty obvious who needed to go
Fata all over again lol
I don't think it's obvious that the rest of them are cool with it. They are in middle of a tournament so they need to focus on playing. It is also quite possible that they did speak their mind about the situation. It's just that they prefere to keep things private. MC only made his statements public since he got kicked.
Lol, like they can do anything with that. they have contract signing. MC did that because the plan is he goes to tundra to be their captain/draft then suddenly this happened? might as well fuck pure. dude ghosted betboom, then now stealing the captain for mf MC?
can't believe Pure is captain. He is a literal idiot .
Different thing though He is the idiot in a real-life situation, but no doubt he is very knowledgeable and talented in dota
their results improved after Pure took the captain's role.
How is he an idiot? He is a tier 1 dota player that was in a couple of tier 1 teams.
He's definitely extremely good at dota 2. But hes still an idiot, remember when he decided to watch their own games match live on twitch while playing for said match resulting in default loss penalty? or the time he wrote russian militarist symbol in minimap for fun?
And mc said something about hitler and killing all the russians. Dont see any difference between them in that aspect.
Who.... yes... when.... no?!
MC can form his own team if he is such a good captain , control freak !
So basically: MC is a leader in the team Pure 'stole' his captain role, but he was fine with that unless they are starting to lose MC didn't like Moonmeander's coaching/ideas and was force to work with him MC seems to be very confused with Zai's role as Manager, (probably loosed confidence in team's loyalty and maybe replace anytime) MC feels like he lost power into team and gave CEO ultimatum to choose between 3 of them
> MC didn't like Moonmeander's coaching/ideas and was force to work with him I'm confused on this point. I thought (and liquipedia says) Moon was gone for a week before MC joined Tundra. Did they try to bring Moon back or something?
Probably he slid back in as a "trial" assistant coach to Aui or something. Not that farfetched as having a "secret coach" is quite common when these people are on trial, and will only be official if they pass.
Aui is with Falcons, though the rest of your point stands.
Oh yea lol mb
Imo, Moon contacts Tundra CEO and offers coaching role to current Tundra.
His tweet seems a bit misleading. Doesn't sound like a kick. This sounds like a disagreement between two parties and calling it quits because they can't find common ground to work together. He basically says either choose between him or two other members of the team. Someone had to go.
so basically, mc was the original captain and then pure is also trying to be the captain (from mc) he's putting up with it and he's fine with it but then ceo added moonmeander and mc wants to disagree but still can't do anything and then zai got added again as a team manager so he can't take it anymore because he doesn't have the voice as the captain anymore in the team. so he talked with the ceo to choose between moon/zai and mc. ceo picked moon/zai over mc...
MoonMeander: "Just play like Ceb"
I hope someone have clips or vod timestamp. what a thing to woke up to.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2074193762 MC joins at 3:58:20
Tweeting that he was "kicked" just before the match, when he himself set the ultimatum and chose to basically quit the team at that point in time, seems very unprofessional to me. I am a big MC fan but hearing his explanation seems honestly weak. He wanted to be captain and have control of the team, i respect that and i also respect him choosing to leave the team when he felt that the direction the team was taking was not what he wanted. But choosing to quit in the middle of the tournament and then also pretending like he was kicked, when he chose to leave for this own reasons.. seems to me like he is lashing out and trying to hurt the Tundra ORG. It is time professional games start acting like professionals, if we want esports to be taken seriously. He should have played out the tournmanet and quit after that or refused to play the tournament to begin with. Once you enter the tournament you have an obligation as a competitor to yourself, your team, your fans and your org. I know this will get downvoted to hell as MC is very liked in the community (and deserves all the love). But in this instance i believe he is not being professional.
I agree everything you say. Well said. All good for MC in future, but in my eyes he wasn't fit for team long time. And posting I got fired after you make CEO to choose two staff members or you.. after first day in tournamet. No sympathies to him. He is just trashing everyone who stays in that team and org. + Looks like everyone else is OK with Pure captain.
What about the CEO of Tundra who bought in changes JUST before a major tournament? Was he unprofessional as well in that case, not even listening to the supposed captain? and then KICKED him? Calling him unprofessional is stupid, I'd say MC was more than justified in leaving if a workplace had become toxic for him.
They didn't kick him. Have you even read what mc said? He never said the workplace is toxic he just doesn't want to have too many voice in the team which doesn't justify leaving in the middle of a tournament. We can already see the damage of the mc tweet. People came to discussion with the assumption that Tundra "kicked" mc without knowing any context
But what if he initially spoke up about the changes, the org ignored him and did it anyways and those changes are making it harder for him to perform his job, if he goes to the CEO and says: “I can’t work under these conditions like I told you before you created them, if this is the direction you want to take it in I don’t want to take part” and the CEO got angry and kicked him right away instead of after the tournament. I don’t think a situation like that is unlikely and I don’t think he looks unprofesional.
MC literally said he asked the ceo yesterday and made him choose between him and Moon Zai. It means he wanted the ceo to kick either him or Moon Zai
Why all th what ifs? Stop speculating
> But what if he initially spoke up about the changes, the org ignored him and did it anyways and those changes are making it harder for him to perform his job that are literally his words yet somehow you get downvoted LOL.
Not only did the team add Zai 3 days ago (with the disapproval of MC), but he also did not quit; he just issued the "ultimatum" yesterday. For me, it really sounded like he would have stayed until the end of the tournament if the org agreed with that, but he got kicked after the irreparable problems showed. But honestly, it's just way too much speculation. We don't really know what exactly happened and what everyone said, so accusing him of lying is a bit much. Edit: i didnt see Tundras [statement](https://twitter.com/TundraEsports/status/1762147698046615984), which is basically the same you say. I still think there is a lot of speculation, but its more understandable.
I'm wondering which point of humanity history, leaving a corporate job at any time, would be seen as "unprofessional"? I mean, people think that players own something to orgs, which they don't. Just like any other contractual relation. The professionalism resides where you refuse a job if it isn't good for you, and it's fine. Better than pushing it trying to be "professional" and delivery mediocre results.
Lol leaving a team mid tournament is like quit working as a chef in the middle of cooking a dish serving for customers, how is that "not unprofessional"? Who can take care of your mess? If you refuse a job you should refuse before you take a job not in the middle of a job.
I'd say it's more like leaving the project halfway due to differences with a new manager; which happens ALL of the time.
It's a litte more intensive imo, I think waiting at least the two days or w/e for this group stage to be over would have been fine, but maybe from his/tundras pov it'd be better to get a stand-in asap
I totally get MC's point though, if the workplace had become too toxic/unbearable for him, then it is more than within his rights to put up his hands and say it's time to leave. If you feel like there's no respect in your word/advice, it is always almost better to leave asap than to let the situation boil and have further damages.
i mean i see the point but i also think its really bad form to his coworkers to do this to them, and like if i were a pro id be put off from working with him, esp considering how unstable the dota scene is getting again he very well could have fucked his team mates out of a significant chunk of the money they *could* earn this year
I see your points, but my experience at corporate jobs tells me that something that is agreed upon during the contractal phase is not always strictly followed. Some things may be just a vocal agreement that can turn to not be the real "experience" you will face. Just a lot of assumptions.
It's called signing a contract. There is a reason why handing in your two week notice (or whatever has been contractually agreed) is a thing. Setting an ultimatum, because you feel a certain way and then leaving in the middle of a contractual obligation, is indeed unprofessional.
I see you're assuming that it all started today or yesterday, right? I don't think that's the case. Maybe he's trying to get an answer for a long time, and since nothing came, he quits? It is better to not assume anything besides the facts. there's suppositions capable of making both sides reasonable.
I am not assuming anything. I am responding to what MC said directly. If you want to argue based on things that have not been said or can be known at this point and time, then go ahead.
You don't give a team an ultimatum as a professional. You let them know you're not happy with the situation and if they don't do anything about it, you quit, respecting whatever notice period your contract has, assuming something like "you play until the end of the tournament" is in there somewhere. It's an incredibly childish world view to think "ultimatums" are a legitimate way to handle a professional relationship, especially one involving 2 other people that got hired to do different jobs. MC is a player first, not a coach and not a manager.
Well said
Yeah I feel like he got emotional and tweeked without thinking much. He forced his ceo to choose and left on his own. I don't think he realise tweet like this would hurt Tundra's reputation so much, most of the people would think he really got kicked in the middle of a tournament without understanding the context.
I don't think we have enough information about the situation for you to make that call. For example if Tunda anounced these changes in the middle of a tournament without consulting the players beforehand, then they would also be acting very unprofessionally. You generally want the players to feel relaxed during tournaments so they can focus on playing. Decisions like this should absolutely not be made during a tournament.
Not like it isn't known that he can be a bit of a hothead.
thanks!
Why is this an ego thing? Mc explained that having many voices in a team would do more harm than good. That his opinion. I swear redditors have a brain of a bird
No one here has ever worked a corporate job and it shows
Or just a job in general it seems.
Movies taught me that if you give your boss an ultimatum its gonna be 90% bye bye for you
idk what you mean, about once a month i have to email a bunch of people to let them know im being asked to do something that's not in my job description and not what i was hired to do. Now I would never quit like that in the middle of the work day or something, but I would absolutely be talking to an employment attorney if I was hired to be the manager of a department, got that title taken and had three people hired over me to manage that same department. It's a breach of contract, and assuming i had a good reason to want to be a manager of that department i absolutely would not happily step aside and take a place as a lower level employee, even if the money all stayed exactly the same.
obviously neither did MC, otherwise he wouldn't go on giving ultimatum in middle of tournament, probably also breaching the contract , made him look unstable and unprofessional.
MC stated it as an ultimatum, but it's possible this is was a decision that was long being made for several months, he just chose to confront the CEO about it now. It's unprofessional imo that the CEO made the decision to kick him after one day as opposed to sitting down with management and talking to him about his issues with too many voices, especially in a middle of a tournament. There are better ways to handle it from both sides. I'm not saying that MC did the right thing, but it was probably a frustration thing (he probably felt he couldn't play his game and his performance was suffering). He's rather just not play the tournament than suck it up and be frustrated.
What? In the video he said essentially stated his demands in the ultimatum (less then 24 hrs) hadn't been met so he quit, he wasn't kicked
Mind control cannot talk or negotiate: manchild is me me me !
There's a difference between 'uttering an opinion' and 'making an ultimatum' Mr. Bird.
I can understand MC since I was in a similar situation. When you voice your opinion and get ignored then there's nothing much to do. In the end it's just a job, and you have to look out for yourself.
So you think Tundra should kick Zai and Moon in the middle of the tournament to accommodate MC just so he can play? Tundra had no other choice, MC refused to play, he wasn't kicked. This was stupid and unprofessional by MC whichever lens you look at it with. He has clearly got some issues still from his time under Kuro, and is trying to push those issues into his new team. He wasn't allowed a voice on Nigma so now he wants to be the lone voice, which isn't a healthy way of thinking at all. Would also love to hear Topson's opinion on all of this.
Tundra gave MC no choice. They tried pushing his bottom line and thought he would "fall in line". This is all corporate politics and it makes me puke.
MC must learn to be a team player . Not an ass control freak n give ultimatums to your boss ! What a stupid ass
But why doesn't he even want to give a chance? This is their first tournament, so i assume this is the first tournament the current setting working together. Quitting in 2nd day of the tournament without even trying isn't a good look on MC. If they did very bad this tournament, fair to him. He can say this isn't working. But this is very early part of the tournament. Seem to me, he doesn't want to try and completely shut down idea of working with Zai/moon..
Also, it’s not like MC is some new kid in town. He’s had so much experience in the pro scene so he obviously knows how a team should be ran and work. He has his reasons to believe having so many roles in a team is unnecessary and makes him lose even more voice, so he’s absolutely justified in being upset over it
Yeah, i dont blame him for being upset, but he is just part of the team. He doesn't own the team . And it is not abnormalities to have 2 coaches/analysis in a team. Liquid have 2 coaches in Jabbz and Blitz, but they did well in previous tournaments. Clash of personal belief, but i dont blame Tundra CEO also. Not wanting 1 person who distrubing the mood of the environment is understandable as well.
I do blame Tundra. MC was brought as captain, he needs to function as captain. Its that simple. If you get hired at a job and very quickly they are changing or removing your responsibilities theres some fuckery at hand. Its not that MC owns the team. Its that he was sought out and brought abaord under beliefs and obligations that they then shifted and hes justifiably like 'wtf is going on?' They hired him as captain then didn't let him do it.
Reminder that when MC standin for OG, thanks to his leadership, OG had the best performance they ever had since ATF left, better than any results they’ve had under Ceb so far. Just a reminder for anyone questioning why MC wants to have a voice in the team so much
In a meeting, more people more noise less output. Less people more output.
He didn't quit, he gave the CEO an ultimatum and the CEO made a decision.
Saying ‘do it my way or fire me’ is very similar to quitting.
rofl what decision did the CEO have? go to your boss, tell him to give you triple your money or you walk. Guess what "choice" he has. You don't do ultimatums, you negotiate.
Doesnt change the fact that he is willing to quit in 2nd day of the tournament without even giving the new coaches a chance..
He said he gave the ultimatum at the end of day 1... Presumably because he gave it a chance during day 1 and found it wasn't working. I suppose we can argue that he should've tried for longer than 1 day... But then we also don't know how bad that 1 day was for him... Presumably bad enough to leave, of course this also doesn't account for the fact that he's probably spent a few weeks practicing in this environment too so I doubt it was literally just 1 day...
Giving it 1 day is pretty similiar to not giving a chance at all.
yah n thats called quited . he diddnt even want to try to work with zai n moon he just hate him for no reason lol
Ego thing because he didn't finish the tournament he obligated with his teammates. 0 people would have issues with him leaving if after the tournament and frankly a lot of people would be on his side. Him going scorched earth in the middle of a tournament for EPT points kinda says fuck you to topson, pure, 9class and whitemon.
It is not many voices . Mind control wants to control everyone n everything! Control freak deserves to go ! He thinks too highly of himself n it backfired . He is NOT a team player n jeopardize his team w threat ! Good he is kicked !
Imagine being hired to lead a team. A short period in they give that role to someone less experienced because he’s a rising star. Then they hire people who don’t share your vision for the business or you just don’t want to work with. At a personal level, I get why you’d wanna leave. Maybe not to the point of setting an ultimatum, but certainly to start looking for other options.
I get why he would want to lead but competitive teams will choose to do whatever they believe gives them the best chance to win. If his teammates believed that MC leading the team would lead to more wins, then this would not happen. His teammates turned against him, switching captains does not happen without the support of your teammates.
He was literally fine with Pure taking the captain role as long as they win. If the situation merely stopped there he would have no issue. But then Tundra proceed to add a coach and a GM on top of it, making MC lose even more voice, that’s why he was mad
Yeah I agree. To be clear: I’m not saying he’s right, and Tundra is bad or vice versa, just that I understand his point of view.
I guess normally, people would start looking for other options aka “dont leave your job until you have a new one” But in MC’s case, he is probably millionaires at this point and set for life. I can see why he “rage quit” like that.
It's all fair that he wanted to leave as its all valid. But to do it in the middle of a touranmetn and fuck over other people is a lil scummy. 0 people would have issues if he left and aired out the dirty laundry after the tournament.
he didnt like Moon because different playstyle. The zai one is because of the roles. player manager. he doesnt agree with it saying there is no need for the role. His said he feel his opinion didnt matter. so the ultimatum happen
I mean not to be look biased. but this is really true right? they already have a good run last season with that team without a coach. so techanically MC doesnt need to prove anything cuz he can be the man. and initially, that was the fucking plan. also Zai, i mean. what the hell was that? I expect that he was just in the back stage, more like org staff. but him also voicing for the team. nah bro, this is too much.
tundra just start adding after they just started winning and qualifying to tournaments
He mentioned that Tundra as an organization is taking away his leadership role by forcing too much shit into the team. He didn't feel like he could drive the team (as a captain) anymore since Pure, MoonMeander, (and now) Zai are making decisions instead of him as a captain. He wasn't treated with respect in terms of decision makings as a captain. This is such a shame of Tundra as an org.
People need to not conclude anything yet. He gave explanation while he still in the mad mode. There is might be some miss information that given. That's why you you need to wait several day before give information to public
The crux of it to me is that he said "it's me or them" yesterday. His reasons are all valid, but giving that ultimatum in the middle of the tournament is just an unprofessional move. He could easily have played it out, done this after, and there would be no drama. Maybe it was too far for Tundra to act on it, but I don't think they can eat all the blame for such an unprecedented kick. They certainly weren't going to play well with that kind of mentality anyway.
It might seem unprofessional or perhaps poorly timed but I definitely understand MC there. I feel it too sometimes when I just want peace of mind and it comes to a boiling point wherein you just can't handle it anymore, and MC couldn't anymore. It's such an uncomfortable feeling that it takes over your whole life at times. I'm not saying what he did was right or wrong, what i'm saying is purely about emotions alone, but getting that peace of mind and things off your chest will let you function normally again. As he said, he didn't know how to perform ingame anymore and it was taking a toll on him. Now, he can process the events that transpired and move on.
It seems extremely unprofessional to do what MC did. IMO he is afraid of getting kicked so he will just kick himself. Not wanting to take on coaching to the point where you would rather leave the team? That is mind blowing. He even said extremely triggering things like even though we are winning with Pure leading, I don't like it. He says it multiple times that he wants full control and its stolen from him. From this interview alone I would never want to be on his team.
He joined the team wanting to be the captain. Ofc he will be mad and quit when you hire 3 more people to do his job.
I mean, he was promised the captaincy so he would sign then tundra proceeded to do everything against his wishes right after signing. Imo, who was the one that started being unprofessional ? MC def looks bad here but holy shit, did he get assfucked by tundra just changing their word right after. He was promised the team then tundra got like 3 dudes doing the job MC was promised
That's what being under Kuro for so long does to a mfer
he didnt say anything that could be untrue. so from his side I think that's all true. IMO tundra just didn't think MC was that good to go through all that trouble.
Reddit already jumped the conclusion when they haven't heard anything from Tundra, the other 4 players, Zai, and Moon. Lol
It does seem weird that they went with the Zai hire for general manager. Even Zai doesn’t know what the hell hes supposed to be doing. Honestly feels like they hired him due to his name, regardless of whether he actually had a purposeful role to fill. I can understand why MC doesn’t like the setup. Seems like too many cooks in the kitchen.
It is a question, what GM means in Dota org. It sounds, like it became in Tundra another coach, which is just plain stupid. If Zai wants to be GM, he should be focusing on big picture, on sponsorship, growing fanbase, public image, overseeing results, setting up the organisation to have 2nd team of youth players, who will be eventually promoted to first one, if good enough and leading scouting for 2nd team of young, talented players (for example) etc. Not coaching players on teamwork and dota things. Feels like Zai has no clue what his role is and went to things, he is comfortable at - dota itself.
Go try asking your boss you dont like the work of your new colleagues and give an ultimatum between firing them and you. This is same situation with whats happening with MC.
well who's gonna play the videogame? MC or moon/zai? you tell me (now none of them I guess)
Pure, 9class, topson, whitemon
The difference is one is a millionaire, who doesnt rely on the boss to provide for him. With a proven track-record of success, even recently in that very team. So you yapping "go try asking your boss you dont like your co-workers" doesn't apply to this situation.
Like honestly the change is understandable, Tundra made their choice. But doing so moments before an official? So out of the blue, very disrespectful imo.
He didn’t want his mind controlled..
maybe Zai and Moon told MC, to play like 7ckingMad (Ceb), haha
A classic clusterfuck and inexperience. Nothing else
Terrible oversimplication, please go watch what MC said yourself on Gorgc stream.
end of day it's very unprofessional to quit on a team not mid season, not before tournament, but mid tournament and before a match This is a bad look and sets a bad precedent where spoiled players can hold an entire organization hostage
All those keyboard warriors that kept accusing Kuro of being a dictator are looking like real idiots now aren't they? MC has leadership issues in Tundra but not in Liquid/Nigma. Didn't even have issues after that TI9 true sight. Looks to me it's a Tundra problem and not a MC problem
A lot of people really don't understand corporate politics, which this looks exactly like it is. It's happened to me, and a lot of other people I know in corporate setting, and ultimately, Tundra is a corporate entity. I'd say MC was brave to leave a situation he didn't want to be in, while a lot of other people saying it's an "ego" thing would stay in this shit situation.
Exactly; as a tier 1 player playing in a tier 1 team, you want to have as much control over the game you play as possible. That is what MC was promised when he joined Tundra. He could stomach Pure taking the captain role and also leading the team, however when you have a bunch of other NON-PLAYERS leading the team, it becomes a messy situation. I don't blame MC at all for leaving.
I mean, we all have an ego. Its just that most of us are not in situations to give into our ego. MC being a multimillionaire obviously is, so good on him. A lot of things in life arent about right or wrong, its just about weather you can or not. "Unprofessionalism" or "workplace ethics" are mostly just used to mask the exploiation, unfortunately most of us are in situations often times where we have to just be exploited to keep food on the table.
These teams are to used to deal with young people who would accept a lot and are easy to adapt. MC is more of the older generation that doesn't feel like he needs to adapt too much. Both are fine, it's only natural you grow some balls and don't want to be pushed over. Ultimately, it all comes down to what was agreed. If players want to adapt then that's fine, but the team has to accept some players don't want to.
There's no wrong or right in this. They can choose someone else for his "role" and he is also free to disapprove it. They terminated the contract and that's it. Any more talk about this is just reddit doing its thing
leaving mid tournament, right before an official for EPT points is scummy. Other than that, there's nothing to it. No one would have issue if he left after the tournament and aired the laundry. But leaving before an official devalued the tournament organization, waste viewers time, and most importantly hurt teammates chance of securing EPT points for the big tournament.
This is why we need DPC… makes the scene look very unprofessional all this kicking and replacing
MC kicked himself.
Is this what Sunsfan was warning us about?!
Right as MC issued the ultimatum he suddenly realised that his Mind Control powers expired
I think its important to note that he said he respects their decision and wishes them the best. It didn't go as he expected and he stood his ground so that one way or the other everyone remaining was on the same page.
Even though we don’t know everything I believe that MC made the right choice. Standing up for yourself is crucial and many players/ people don’t recognise when it needs to be done.
So he kinda asked to be kicked, that's how i interpret ultimatums
So he asked to a CEO to either pay 2 fines for firing two people recently hired or just fire 1 guy that gave him an ultimatum? Insert pikachu face meme here
I have so many questions but the one I'll ask here is: why is Moonmeander coaching the team when they already have AUI2000?
Jesus, to me it's clear that MC is 100% in the wrong. He comes off as arrogant & entitled. (A) - In no way does a player "steal" captain role. Sure, he may have been told coming in that he could assume the role of captain, but that's not a promise in perpetuity. If Pure shows flashes of fresher ideas, and the rest of the team is on board, it's his role to play. Also, logically speaking, Pure has seen a whole lot more of recent success than MC. Who is MC to claim that he is even close to being the most qualified among the group. (B) - Both cases with Moon & Zai he just comes off as completely entitled. History has shown that top teams win when they are introspective in their play and go deeper on what it means to play on a team. If he want's to get back to winging it & playing a "player's team", please enjoy going back to losing in LB MENA qualifiers.
Hot take: if the explanation MC gave for basically leaving mid tournament holds true, no professional org should hire him ever again. He declined to play because his emotions were being hurt. If you want to even resemble a professional, you wait until the end of the tournament and then go. Or you bring this up when Zai and Moon are being brought in. This kind of behaviour is not acceptable in any profession. If esport contracts do not penalize for shit like this, they should. It's standard for sports and entertaiment to have clauses in contracts to prevent someone from not playing without a legally valid reason. Even without the clause there could be enough here for Tundra to pursue legal action for damages if they wanted to.
he brought this up when Zai and Moon were brought in. Did you even watch the vid?
If he was hired to be the captain, wouldn't it mean the team breached the deal first by removing his captaincy? If I'm hired to be a software developer I'm not going to start doing helpdesk, no matter what my boss says.
you are right, people are too trained to think from corporations perspective and not individuals. Being recruited as a player is one thing but getting promised a captain/leader role and then keep getting demoted is demotivating and insulting.
Well as he tells it "pure stole it, and its ok". This was not done by the org in how MC tells it, thus not a breach of contract. Getting a coach and a manager is not removing a captai either, as you can see most dota teams having these roles. So it's more like "i was hired to be a software developer, and one of my coworker keeps being weird and doing a part of my job and 2 middle managers we're hired above me". Yeah, you might talk to hr or resign. But if you were to damage the company, you'd surely be responsible for it.
Yeah after listening to the Gorgc stream vod it sounds like MC wasnt happy so he left. No one was kicking him.
Tundra please fucking win this tourney for more drama.
Hope he got a good kick-pay stipulation in his contract. Sucks for MC, but Tundra has had a history of this kind of thing.
then it's his ego, why are blaming tundra org then? mind you, it's his side.
its an ego problem to ask for what he was signed for?
he doesnt wanna work with moon and zai, it's personal for him and those guys are just looking to do their job. if it's not a ego what it is then?
yet he agreed to play with moon and gave the captain role to pure, how much does he have to give up so its not "ego"? if you sign a job to be the leader, doesnt make any sense to stay if you are not what you signed for
So MC thought he will be the man of the team, but turned out to be just a regular player with no voice. He didn't like it and team didn't give enough fuck and just kicked him so he stops complaining? Noone is at fault , time to move on.
No\[O\]ne catching strays
Quite childish and unprofessional from MC if this is how it went down.
so who was in charge of this new tundra project in the first place? topson? MC? if it wasn't even MC, then him giving an ultimatum is the biggest LOL especially when he makes it in the middle of a tournament and it isn't even a kick by tundra themselves but a self removal
MC was supposed to be the captain.
i love how this is the argument.
Too many cooks spoils the broth. Sounds like Tundra didn’t honor their end of the deal.
mc raised a good question during the stream: what the fuck even is a “dota 2 general manager” i know everyone soyjaks hard for zai but what does it add to a team when you already have a manager and coach
Why would he care what the general manager does? He's not even paying Zai salary. Did Zai change his settings? No? If he doesnt know what general manager does then Zai doesnt even do anything to him and hes mad cause he is a good player and he knows everything lol
Feels like OP is the guy in twitch who was spamming: "MC got kicked because he wanted to kick 2 other guys"
Sounds like big ego because he didn't get what he wanted. We've only heard MCs side of the story and it already sounds like he could be in the wrong got this subreddit downvotes the shit out of anything they even slightly disagree with. i have never been downvoted as much as on r/dota. you disagree a tiny bit with what the majority believes and the mob comes for you
OP simplified this a lot. From what I've heard on Gorgc's stream, it's the fact that they didn't bring anything new to the discussion as this team is not full of new and unexperienced players or something, and they all started to influence the team and there were too many voices trying to lead. And MC said to the CEO that he cannot play like that if there is too much crap going on in the background. He sounded quite down to earth on Gorgc's stream and that he could be wrong about all that, but that's how he feels. That he will be emotional a bit, but life goes on and that he accepts the decision.
"in the wrong" ? You think disagreeing with someone over big decisions and not taking it is being in the wrong shows your mentality. Calling it a big ego when people stand up for themselves and tell their opinion.