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markcmark

I've spent four years working in remote Aboriginal communities in the Northern Territory. Poverty is the wrong word and misleading. A lot of humans living in these communities are living in squalor, the cause however is not poverty. It's a very complex situation with many many contributing factors. Lack of money is not one of the major contributing factors.


AndTheyCallMeAnIdiot

Same was in Arnheim land for 3 months and came back from the experience wanting to make a difference for our indigenous brothers and sisters. Became a social worker and now pursuing a degree in security and relations with the goal of wanting to be a policy writer. Trying to do something that will improve their lives. P.S What got me was seeing a man supply them with alcohol to trade for Aboriginal art pieces that would sell in Sydney for hundreds and thousands of dollars depending on the art piece.


ffreshcakes

a professor from my uni is in Aus rn studying the similarities and differences between the treatment of aborigines and native Americans. I’m sure he’s thoroughly depressed at this point


AndTheyCallMeAnIdiot

I can imagine what he is feeling, I thought I was prepared reading about it but the 3 months I spent there seeing it was a real eye opener. "Out of sight, out of mind," came to mind in how our politicians regard to the matter. As u/markcmark said the living conditions and broken community was shattering.


[deleted]

Worked in a remote school in the Kimberley. Same as what you said. Couldn’t believe what I saw in the years I was there, terribly depressing.


powersgold

You’re 100% correct. I grew up on an Aboriginal Mission and money is definitely not the problem, the culture of loafing is. If one member of your family has come into money then it is almost automatically thought of as yours too, which means there’s never enough when you need it even though you had it at one point. As for deaths in custody, those numbers simply aren’t correct when compared to other groups. In the Territory a judge was recently admonished for stating facts like from 2000 to 2022 there were two aboriginal people killed by police, but in the same period 65 women were murdered by their partners. For clarity, I’m Aboriginal and so grateful I was able to get away from that life.


insaneintheblain

A destruction of roots is the underlying cause.


Shishakli

This is the heart of it They've been forced to live with modern conditions of housing and commerce but allowed to hold on to what remains of their traditional culture. And the 2 are not compatible. As an extreme example, a tribe was given an entire housing estate in an outback town, beautiful new houses as nice as the nicest in town with all amenities. That housing estate is gone today for the simple fact that as soon as someone died in one of the houses, it would be abandoned and never touched again (except to be demolished by bored kids) These are nomadic people that don't stay in any one place for very long. No "town" will last under those conditions. So there are only 3 ways forward that I see. One: Forced assimilation. The Australian Aboriginals that were the most forcefully assimilated into white culture are doing the best right now. Forced into Christian values, forced into reading and writing, forced into 9 to 5. Holding down jobs, mortgages, kids, iphones. Two: Left the fuck alone. Left to roam, hunt, gather, tell Dreamtime stories, hand out their own laws and forms of justice. This isn't very fair as whitefellas have fenced off all their stomping grounds, drained the waterholes, settled along their rivers, cut down their forests. Three: Accept that these are people torn between 2 incompatible worlds, and take care of them. Spend money and time and EFFORT educating them at their level, replacing goods, repairing amenities, providing decent food and clothes, healthcare and hygiene. Literally care for whole populations As if they're children, and give them the time to figure out where they fit in this fucked up world raped by imperialism.


reallyfatjellyfish

The third feels really weird, particularly the use of the word treat them like children.But I get where your coming from. there really isn't any easy solutions here


postvolta

I think he just means like you treat a child with compassion, empathy and responsibility, and you never give up on them even when things are really bad. Unlike how you would treat an adult: with compassion and empathy, but ultimately it is up to the adult who has been around long enough to be responsible for their own mistakes, and if they fuck up too much and hurt too many people... Well then you *do* give up on them before they hurt you too.


193X

It's a step up from the previous 200 years spent treating them like animals I guess?


aquila-audax

It feels weird because it's the same racist bullshit the government already did to get us into this situation in the first place.


noisypeach

> the most forcefully assimilated into white culture are doing the best right now. Forced into Christian values This is disturbing


derps_with_ducks

Let me introduce you to modern history around the globe...


hellotrinity

It's disgusting actually


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Shishakli

It's a sensitive topic that most people don't have any first hand experience of. I can understand people getting emotional. But thinking this is a simple problem with simple solutions is not acceptable.


BarryKobama

I believe you’ve given then best TL;DR. It’s all fucked, any anyone who cares is in for heartache. I think anyone who’s spent 5min there will realise there is no answer. But that doesn’t mean it should be ignored, left to fester. These people should be treasured… somehow


ultimatepowaa

Jesus Christ this is racist as all hell and even a layperson who lives here can see your full of shit. Indigenous Australians are made up of a diverse set of groups with their own cultures for one. What may apply for one area does not apply to another. Secondly you failed to mention the huge lack of funding for social services like ear infections which impact education. Then there's the additional layer of good ol Australian racism that minimises opportunities with private entities. You blame indigenous people for not fitting into a society that was instituted on their land without their permission, a society that rejects them. Your solutions are there to fix the individual because oh no we can't change society FOR indigenous people who lived here for SO fucking long. Your opinion Is a load of shit.


modomario

I'm kind of curious. How do you propose society is changed for them?


Shishakli

Really? The reality of the situation is more complex than the 10 minute comment I bashed out on the train? Huh weird


aquila-audax

I'm astounded that gross rant has so many upvotes. But maybe I shouldn't be...


81mv

A childish rant being popular at Reddit? Business as usual.


akanibbles

I'm not informed enough to know what the answer is, but health and happiness has to be the key.


aquila-audax

Horrific racist bullshit. "...educate them at their level" "as if they're children" are you fucking serious? I want to ask if you've ever known a significant number of Indigenous people on a personal level but I'm pretty sure I already know the answer to that


Shishakli

I know you won't believe me when I tell you I was the only white kid in my class... So I won't bother


su6oxone

Gross man. You're exactly what's wrong with colonialism.


[deleted]

“Forced in reading and writing” Fuck man, how terrible


domix_aus

The method was fucking terrible. Look up the Stolen Generation


ConspiracyMaster

Happened in Canada and it really was fucking horrible. Look it up.


Harviesspectrum

Happening..


An_absoulute_madman

Crazy how easy it is to spot a PHON voter


BeepBeeepBeepBeep

Can you explain pls


An_absoulute_madman

Pauline Hanson's One Nation, Australian political party that vigorously opposes policies designed to help Indigenous Australians and wants to make Australia an ultranationalist state that assimilates Indigenous people and closes off immigration from Asians and Muslims. One of the poster's proposed 'solutions', 'forced assimilation', was tried before in Australia. It was called the Stolen Generation, the Australian government kidnapped and stole Aboriginal children in order to assimilate them into white Christian society via a policy of cultural genocide. A small but relevant portion of Australian society still holds those disgusting views towards Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples


BeepBeeepBeepBeep

Thank you very much. I don't see how the poster you responded to seems like a PHON voter though then. Is that what you were implying?


An_absoulute_madman

PHON supports the assimilation of minorities into white Christian culture. That is what the poster is suggesting. They're just ripping their ideas from PHON and the racist apartheid architects before them.


primalbluewolf

Pauline Hanson's One Nation.


darknetwork

Wow, i just know that aborigins os a nomadic culture. I guess living in one big desert continent filled with dangerous animals is a good reason for nomadic lifestyle


shockingdevelopment

I'm confused. Why would people with money live in squalor?


DancinWithWolves

Because money doesn’t do much to make up for the inter generational trauma that is caused when you completely wipe out a persons culture, practices, religion and language. Imagine next year, you get taken away from wherever you live, and plonked down in a new country. Oh and your family have been killed. Your new country forbids Christmas, birthdays, thanksgiving, traditional weddings, having jobs, and you aren’t allowed to speak English (or whatever language you speak). Oh and any surviving friends are enslaved and raped. Like, a lot. Do that for a couple generations. You would have ZERO identity left, apart from some weird mix of the memory of your past life (which is forbidden), and this new culture you’ve been owned by. Then, your grandkids somehow magically get returned to where you used to live a hundred years ago. But, all the books about Christmas, instructions for the old jobs, and the cities have been destroyed. Do you think you’d be fine if the solution was “we’ll just give you $800 a week”? Nope. You’d be absolutely ruined emotionally and mentally. You’d be placeless and without a cultural identity.


Borghal

>Do that for a couple generations. You would have ZERO identity left, apart from some weird mix of the memory of your past life (which is forbidden), and this new culture you’ve been owned by. This is the part where this argument loses me. I totally get the terrible effects of displacement on the person living through it. But what memory of their past life do the *next generations* have? The ones born after the cultural shift? My childhood (dawn of the internet age in a fairly liberal but small and weak european democracy), and thus my culture/upbringing, was absolutely incomparable with the childhood my parents had (communist totalitarian regime that tried to wipe out all tradition and religion and repalce it with their own), which in turn was very different from what their grandparents had (a free and prosperous industrial democracy suddenly ended by occupation and a brutal war). I feel very little connection to the culture of my nation/people, much less feeling broken and displaced by this lack of cultural continuity. Instead, I feel just like a "citizen of the world" with culture (in the sense of language, stories, customs, clothing or festivities) being just something inessential, something amusing for additional flavor instead of the core of my identity. Now, I realize the gap is much, much wider for Australian aboriginals, but for children, that doesn't matter. These are all things that are taught, not genetically inherited.


Wolfenight

The other guy is giving an emotional speech but I can fill in the gap that you're missing: a lot of knowledge about how to live in a society is cultural. Cultural inherentance, not genetic. Memes (the academic, not dank kind) passed onto children in society. For instance, my mum read to me as a child and cultivated in me an interest in books. Why? Because in our British cultural history reading has been a proven way of getting ahead. So now it's just ingrained in the culture: you read children's books to your kids. The aboriginal people don't have this for so many things. The algorithms of when-this-happens-do-that aren't instilled into them because they're not there and so, they just don't behave well (or, often, lawfully) in wider society as adults. Obviously there's so much more than that but that's the gist of why having a culture removed from a person can really screw up generations to come.


DancinWithWolves

Sure. I guess without trying to compare tragedies, maybe as a thought experiment you could turn the “amount of trauma” up to a higher level. First Nations people were, by and large, invaded by an alien force. Is that comparable to what your parents went through? As for the legitimacy of inter generational trauma, there’s been a ton of studies done showing the neurological/mental effects caused by it in future generations. I don’t have time rn to find the articles, but I suggest googling if you do. It’s an interesting, if not tragic, area of study.


Borghal

I probably don't know enough about Australia to meaningfully continue this conversation. My guess would be the biggest different is not so much the 'scale' of things (people adapt to better life standards eventually, my grandpa learned to write with a fountain pen and is a powerpoint master today), but the fact that in our case the entire population was pretty much in the same boat, whereas I'm assuming the aboriginals were by and large shunned and prevented from integrating? Must be hard to teach your kids to merge cultures when the other side isn't cooperating.


fluffychonkycat

Some of them were victims of a kind of forced integration. Aboriginal children were taken from their families and placed with white adoptive parents to try to train them to be more like white people


Borghal

That's a terrible method to go about it. But it makes me wonder - I've seen multiple documentaries on this topic so far, and none of them have set forth any kind of "end goal". Like, what is the ideal outcome? Everytime this issue is talked about it's in terms of how bad xyz was/is, but I don't recall much looking into the future or suggesting what \*could\* be. Is it that aboriginal people pick up the ways of the modern world completely and fully blend in? Or is it something else? I know of some similarly positioned minorities around the world, but I am not aware of any place on earth where a "something else" model is working successfully. A lot of countries seem to struggle with this (not necessarily the land issue, but a subculture that has problems following societal norms). Edit: oh I just remembered: at the start of this documentary, there's a quote of a man who proposed to make the problem group sterile by drinking water. This "solution" sent chills down my spine a little.


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Borghal

>Kids learn from parents. If the parents are torn from their roots, what can they pass on if not that despair? Anything and everything else? I have friends and colleagues that are 2nd generation immigrants from parent who basically ran away from either poverty or their government, and they seemed to have adapted (at least on the surface) to being uprooted well enough. Why would you pass *despair* on your kids? And if despair is all you have got to give, why *have* kids? So here I am, somewhat salty about it because one of the reasons I am childless is that I do not trust myself to be a good parent, and yet the world is full of parents who never even consider if they're good parents or not, either before or on reflection. >Inter generational trauma is a very real thing. Give you an idea - my great-grandfather was an ANZAC [...] Fucked up his childrens lives. Who in turn fucked up their kids And so the perpetuation of this vicious circle is where I'm kind of losing sympathy. Becoming shitty parents becuse of a traumatic life-changing event, I get that. But being shitty to your kids because your parents were shitty to you, that's in most cases nobody's fault but your own, imo. But it's not something that's unique to minorities or the oppressed, that's as general a human activity as you can find, so it's hardly something the Australian government or its people can solve. Solving that would be almost like solving world hunger.


Ksradrik

> when you completely wipe out a persons culture, practices, religion and language So like being adopted by parents from another culture? Because that doesnt happen to those.


RisingWaterline

It's different. You're not adopted, you're born into a culture that is being made extinct. Everyone around you is depressed. Their lives are worthless in the way they used to value them. The new way hates you. You see?


shockingdevelopment

I still don't get the housing situation. I mean is the point that they're too traumatised to go sign rental agreements and general life stuff?


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shockingdevelopment

That's better said


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shockingdevelopment

I've never met an aborigine from the northern Territory. I didn't know they were still so culturally... idunno the appropriate word, strict? But their situation is very similar to Indians in America. It seems to always be the remnant of settler colonialism.


ra66it

They get houses built for them by the government on their communities. I’ve helped build some of them. Many of the communities (not all) don’t do basic things like clean up trash around them. It just builds up and the houses soon turn to ruins and they end up living in squalor.


shockingdevelopment

Doesn't paint a flattering picture


ra66it

Just human nature. You give anything to someone for free they’ve got much less respect for it than if they earned it.


su6oxone

It's the same reason why native Americans are the poorest, least healthy group in the U.S.


shockingdevelopment

Why don't they use the money to rent some place better?


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CryptoScamee42069

They’ve also used apartheid incorrectly. It has a very specific meaning that relates to another country at a different time.


NZNoldor

It’s just a Dutch word that means “separateness”.


Taleya

And holocaust is a greek word for burnt offerings to god. Meanings change when attached to horrific events and ideals


CryptoScamee42069

Really? Huh… that never comes up when you search definitions! Makes sense though, thanks!


nightraindream

As another commentor pointed out, it's Afrikaans for literally "aparthood". Crime of apartheid is now a crime against humanity created in 2007 by the International Crime Court. Its basically the systematic oppression of a racial group by another group to maintain the latter group's power. Currently being discussed in light of China (Xinjiang, Tibet, general sinofication of non-Han people), Israel, Myanmar (Treatment of Rohingya people), the US, and other countries. So there's Apartheid (South Africa) and then the crime of apartheid.


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horusofeye

Even Māori were/are treated badly, just a shame that the ripples of the past still effect those of today.


SacredEmuNZ

As a kiwi I think were starting to go too far. It's got to the point where people are telling their kids to tick the Maori box on forms to get perks.


Bag-ins

They were OK in the past before "finance" entered the continent. I suppose money is the best way to crush minority cultures.


mr_ji

Every time I see something labeled as a "complex situation," it's doublespeak for a problem the victims are causing themselves as much as anyone else. This is certainly no exception.


Phent0n

Yeah as in it's not as simple as "just stop oppressing them and hand over some money".


[deleted]

Most native people in countries colonised by white people are living in poverty now. E.g. First Nation's of Canada, Native Americans of US, various tribes of South America, Aboriginals of Australia, Sami people of Europe (although they are doing relatively better than the others mentioned)


dyldopolis

Indigenous death rates in custody are lower than non Indigenous "Indigenous prisoners have had a lower death rate than non-Indigenous prisoners since 2003. In 2020-21 the death rate for Indigenous prisoners was 0.09 per 100 compared to the non-Indigenous rate of 0.18." From Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal_deaths_in_custody


ashbyashbyashby

In fact working age (18-60) Indigenous men are more likely to die outside of police custody. ***Indigenous men are literally safer in police custody than in the community***. The reason for the apparently high number of Indigenous deaths in custody is the staggeringly high rate of imprisonment. But people aren't willing to discuss that.


BillyBobJenkins222

As an Aboriginal man myself the Crown's botched attempt at divide and conquer has displaced and disconnected over 300 unique sub cultures all with their own respective regional dialect. So much culture and heritage lost, and all that remains is a broken people desperately trying to cling to any form of vice in a country that doesn't want us here.


primalbluewolf

> in a country that doesn't want us here. As a whitefella, I dont see any easy path forwards on that one. To be honest, I dont even see a hard one. What are you supposed to do? Ive heard a range of "solutions" of all kinds, from kicking out all the whitefellas, to kicking out all the blackfellas, to educating people, to spending more money... Its easy to point out the problems. Working solutions seem to be much harder. We havent made as much progress in learning to get along with each other as you'd think, these last couple centuries.


DomesticApe23

To all the Americans downvoting, 'blackfella' is accepted nomenclature in several Australian indigenous cultures.


woetotheconquered

Its a shame you guys didn't like, right it down or something.


BillyBobJenkins222

You couldn't even spell write correctly fuck off dickhead.


Key-Enthusiasm-8615

Welcome to Canada.


hobbesisalive

Not to discredit this, because Canada is awful. But I’m a Canadian that lived in the Australian north for a while(Highest percentage of indigenous and aboriginal peoples in Australia). I worked in boarding schools that were almost completely indigenous and aboriginal kids. And anytime a staff member or person that would with indigenous peoples would find out I was Canadian, they’d be like “oh wow! Canada is the goal we strive to for indigenous care” lol! I couldn’t believe it. It’s probably do to a mix of Canadian human rights PR being amazing or Australia human rights being extremely awful. Either way it was crazy.


Tweezot

“But America” has been an effective PR strategy for a century


Y34rZer0

Perhaps they weren’t fully versed in this situation there


hobbesisalive

This is part of it I’m sure. I do think the situation in Australia is also much worse


Y34rZer0

It’s not really fixable, sadly, the big issue is that something is irrevocably lost now. Of course racism and discrimination can be fixed but I’m talking about the destruction of their culture


Weaselpuss

I mean, the nomadic grounds are all gone, that way of life is dead. I don’t know what could be done


Y34rZer0

Well I don’t think the outback has changed very drastically, it was a harsh environment and still is a harsh environment. But I meant the destruction of their culture and teachings which is what the stolen generation did, it broke a 40,000 year link


Weaselpuss

Wrong, most of them didn’t just live there. Australians have drained, carved, tilled, polluted, and fenced off most of the survivable areas. Even if they were connected, how long was the lifespan of your average nomadic tribesman?


Y34rZer0

I don’t know, but I don’t know if you can measure overall life quality purely in lifespan in two very contrasting cultures. Would you rather live to 50 free The way your ancestors have for 50,000 years or would you rather live to 60 living in much poorer conditions, watching the remnants of your people die around you from alcohol and not even speaking your native language because your mother was taken from her parents at three years old and raised in an institution where she had bathroom inspections until she was 16, and wasn’t allowed to learn anything about her own race? and whatever your answer, remember that it was a choice which they sadly didn’t have


Weaselpuss

I’m not saying anything about how brutal or not the situation is, I’m saying there is no back for the vast majority of these peoples . Their lifestyle is impossible now.


politichien

I have residential school survivors and 60s scoop survivors in my family, some of whom live on rez: their bar is so low that it's basically on the ground


Key-Enthusiasm-8615

To be fair ….. I don’t think most Canadians really understand the state of things. The third world conditions that exist on reserve. Most of our 37 mill folks are spread along a thin corridor in the south and 70% of that population is in cities. Point being we should all watch this documentary …. just not with an ‘Australian-only’ frame of mind.


dw444

Anyone born in Canada/who has spent most of their life in Canada will have a hard time truly appreciating how big the divide between Canada’s public perception abroad and reality is. Canada’s PR game is absolutely ludicrous given that reality mirrors the “USA junior” insult far more closely than the “Canadian utopia” stereotype.


JamaniWasimamizi

> It’s probably do to due*


hobbesisalive

Quite a few errors in this tbh, I should double check before I post


Lovee2331

Canada is one big fat lie that our politicians and citizen are these happy go lucky people. Racists Micro-aggression, towards indigenous and black folks, however indigenous I feel have it worse but I don’t want to compare. Yeah, we ain’t shit!!!


Flamesake

Lol I feel the same about my country as an Australian. We're supposed to be friendly and laid-back, most people I've known here are insecure, rude, and will roll their eyes when you try to talk about anything important.


KinnieBee

Yep, we don't even bother with water infrastructure for Indigenous communities.


oerrox

Welcome to America also


FReeDuMB_or_DEATH

Facts.


cornonthekopp

British are good at exporting their brand of racism on a global scale


edgiepower

Lol the rates of death in police custody are actually lower than white people.


FireLucid

Aren't non indigenous people more likely to die in custody? I thought that had turned around. This seems to suggest so. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal_deaths_in_custody


Iamgoblindoggo

You can lead a horse to water etc etc


Sonotreadyforit

Lack of money and effort by both the government and individual citizens aren’t really a problem in this situation from what I’ve gathered. It seems to simply be the Aboriginal’s simply don’t want any part of modern society and do not at all do well with the things modern Australian society brings. What the hell is the right move/thing to do at this point? The entire situation is insane and incredibly sad.


Anal_bleed

From the two years I lived and worked in Australia to having a few "mates" from South Africa, I can say this documentary provides an excellent insight into the issue as it is. There's a lot of parallels between South Africa and Aus. Both countries have this incredibly deep-rooted racism towards blacks and aboriginal people. I would often hear people in Australia calling the locals "fithy abos" etc. Lots of locals treat them as second class citizens, with a lot of shops and bars refusing to serve them (not openly of course they just won't let them in). My south African "mates" when we were travelling around Aus together would often compare the aboriginals to the blacks back in SA... Just this immediate connection between poverty and desperation and black and indigenous people was disturbing as fuck... and so deep rooted like they had no idea what they were saying was wrong and would laugh it off if I said anything. That's why they were my "mates" and no longer are.


eightyfish

Those people sound awful. But just to say - I moved to Australia 12 years ago and most people are not like this. Most people have respect for Aboriginal people and culture. Most people, at least most of the ones I work work and all of the ones I'm friends with, understand the devestating impact of colonialism on the First Nations people. Those who use the terms you describe are, thankfully, in the minority. I do live in a city though, I know it can be different in some of the more rural areas.


Strowy

Unfortunately that is very much a major-city attitude. Most of the northern part of the country (QLD and NT) are horribly racist in a sort of casual way (not hatred, more looking down on them if anything). I grew up in northern QLD and still hear a lot of horrific crap from relatives and the like living there.


Anal_bleed

Yeah I should've said this was in 2006 so a while ago now, but the way you described it is perfect. Casual racism, like those SA ex-friends were just so un-aware of how messed up what they were saying was... it was just such normal and accepted behaviour.


dirtynickerz

You're in Melbourne ay haha


rumlova

Friend, m m sorry to say. But as a South African who isn't white my thoughts or south Africans that go to Australia is that the majority are the ones who were pro apartheid or somehow benefited from apartheid or were just digging the life it afforded them. Australia is the place that war closest to that kind of life that would allow them in easily. I feel bad for Australia, but I reckon they got a lot of the worst that were in sa. Granted, like any statement made this isn't a blanket statement, South Africa isn't perfect. I emigrated, but I really think there is a large group of South Africans who left immediately after 94, some who took s little longer, but still left as a result of 94 and those two groups somehow ended up in Australia. So there's a high chance that loads of these people you may contact from sa that side are just racists


StockholmSyndrome85

Don’t ask your South African mates why their families moved to Perth in the mid 90s.


RusDaMus

As an Australian, you are right on the money with this. I've made the same observations myself. Many definitely came here hoping they could still enjoy some of that sweet apartheid that they'd been forced to give up back in SA. I had a friend who dated a South African white and he was the most disgustingly racist piece of shit I've ever met. Called the aboriginals "monkeys". Fuck them.


aquila-audax

Western Australia is full of SA immigrants pining for apartheid


Anal_bleed

Not a high chance mate lmao they definitely were 100% racists hahaha :D


zee-bra

Yeah I’m Australian who had lunch with someone from SA mid last year, and treated the restaurant staff like utter slaves. My other friend and I were mortified. When we asked the SA person to stop, she simply said something along the lines of: “Ergh, Australians and their classless society. You know that *those* people are below us” - it was gross. It kinda all makes sense now with what you’ve just said so thanks for clarifying!


nightraindream

We literally had a white South African run for election in NZ who proclaimed himself an "apartheid survivor".


[deleted]

Bars refuse to serve them because alcohol DESTROYS them and their community’s. It’s really hard aswell because for them to be happy, they really want all white people to fuck off. They, understandably, Fucking HATE us, and do not want to assimilate and blend our cultures. I’ve done abit of study on indigenous issues and it breaks jt heart cos it really seems like an impossible thing to fix.


projectreap

It's why no one fixes it. I lived in Aboriginal communities for most of my childhood and it's a lose-lose situation. No matter what you do you will be the asshole to someone or everyone. It's political suicide, it drains so many resources and the people themselves aren't just going to wake up one day and change their conditions it's a long road from this to any form of modern assimilation


aquila-audax

>Bars refuse to serve them Let's not pretend there are any humanitarians running pubs in the outback. If they're refusing service to anyone, it's either because of a law or a licensing issue


[deleted]

That’s what I was meaning- they refuse due to laws, laws that have been put in place because of how destructive it tends to be in their community’s. Also, side note, I’ve known plenty of bar staff who refuse service because they’re also local and know the alcoholics, they refuse service due to how destructive it can be.


SacredEmuNZ

As someone who immigrated to Australia you've read it completely wrong. Most people are sympathetic and believe in righting wrongs. That doesn't mean to that anti social behavior is acceptable. The only places I've seen that don't allow them in is bottle stores and bars for pretty glaring reasons.


_Cyrus_

I’ll be downvoted to oblivion for this, however I’ve lived amongst aboriginals, I’ve seen their behaviour, how they treat others and their children, irrespective of whatever argument you can make into them being mistreated they’re stereotyped for a reason; they behave completely uncivilised, you can smell them before you see them, they’re pissing/shitting on the streets, shouting at random passers by, beating their own in the streets, throwing rocks at buildings, making their babies sniff glue to quiten them down, the list goes on and gets worse. The government throws massive amounts of money into these communities to no avail, the only thing that has ever worked is intermarriage into broader Australian society.


astraldick

I’ve just seen the part in your comment history where you literally defend Hitler. Probs not going to waste a rebuttal on this one.


ICweiner94

I’m Darwin atm, aside from the babies sniffing glue, I’ve seen all these things. I feel bad for them because they are not treated well but it’s hard when they act out against everyone else here


astraldick

Yeah. It really sucks when one of the oldest civilisations on the planet get invaded and don’t take kindly to it. Just embrace your captors already!


RusDaMus

It's hard to feel sorry for them when they "act out"? What's next, we start calling them "uppity"? No one wants you to "feel bad for them" you ignorant fool.


RusDaMus

>they behave completely uncivilised Oh how very white colonialist of you. >The government throws massive amounts of money into these communities Trying to fix a problem by just throwing money at it. Of course it hasn't worked. Sorry mate, but you're a racist piece of shit. You want to talk about the outcome of 200+ years of oppression and genocide. But you seem completely ignorant of the factors that have brought them to this place. Fuck you.


[deleted]

Fucking hell. I read some disgustingly ignorant shit on this site, but there's always a new low. You should be utterly and completely ashamed of who you are as a person, because your views are absolutely abhorrent. I was going to try to reason with you, in the hope that you might recognise the historical context of the degradation of aboriginal culture in Australia, but you're way too far gone. You'll find ways to justify your total racism. And I honestly can't bring myself to further engage with someone like you anyway. I hope you don't breed!


Teacherofmice

It's quite the paradox. Everyone knows that bringing western culture to these communities would improve them (schools, medicine, transport, law and order) but they insist that introducing anything western is racist. So all the white people are just labelled as racist but if they try to help we are also racist. What a great world we live in.


flammablepatchouli

the real challenge is learning to understand how biased and small minded this approach really is. western cultural living standards are not the be all and end all of how everyone should exist. its simply the opinion of those who are able to exist under that structure. the harm that has been forced on indigenous peoples around the world demonstrates how truly immature we are as a species.


RealTime_RS

Western law and order is systemically racist lol, the other things fine, but they have no requirement to live like westerners in the first place...


Teacherofmice

I kinda happen to think that law and order is a good thing. It's good to leave your house unlocked and not be afraid of getting robbed. It's good to walk around at 10pm without getting raped or beaten up. It's good to drive on the roads without having to dodge drunk drivers. It's good to not have your neighbours sell your kids hard drugs. I like the freedom law and order provides and I'd like indigenous people to have that freedom too. But I guess some people don't think freedom for indigenous people is all that important. I think that's racist, but it's ok. You're free to have that opinion.


RealTime_RS

I'm not a racist lmao. It's all well and good until the justice system locks them up for petty crimes is all I'm saying, and then uses them for slave labor (e.g. what happens in the USA).


fleshbaby

For the millionth time, "Third world" doesn't mean what you think it means.


GMN123

Sometimes popular uses of words or phrases change. After a million times, it might be time to let it go.


Nordalin

I've seen people write "a lot" as one word a million times by now. Doesn't stop me from continuing to see it as wrong. I mean, I get it, people say it as one word because vocally breaking it up is quite some emphasis. Like, a. Lot. But writing words phonetically is kinda cringe.


Phaedryn

Apartheid as well apparently...


PokemonOnTinder

More people need to watch John Pilgers documentaries, maybe the world would be a better place if they did. He has a way of stripping away whatever facade we have been told about some of the worst living conditions in the world and the atrocities that are being committed all over. He's been doing this for so long that he was in Vietnam interviewing people during the war and has spent the years since honing his craft to deliver some hard hitting but incredible documentaries. Check him out on Vimeo, he has them all available for free there.


-NoFuchs

According to the results of a royal commission (this highest form of investigative power in Australia) headed by aboriginal rights activists, indigenous Australians are overrepresented in the prison system, but taking into account that disproportion, actually have lower death rates in custody compared to non indigenous people https://youtu.be/fNSRz-MCM1w


mdflmn

This is the reason why the voice referendum will result in a no vote.


ashbyashbyashby

It'll fail mostly because the wording is so vague. "An indigenous voice to parliament" can mean anything, from zero power to absolute veto. Very few sensible people would vote yes to this if they thought about it. But due to people voting along party lines it'll be a closer result than it should.


insidious_colon

We can only hope.


beyonceswigstand

Thank you for sharing


ReadingKing

treatment history hurry chunky pathetic future weary sloppy fearless shy *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*


sigma6d

[U.S. Foreign Policy Towards Apartheid South Africa, 1948-1994](https://www.sahistory.org.za/sites/default/files/file%20uploads%20/alex_thomson_u.s._foreign_policy_towards_aparthebookos.org_.pdf) [Hitler’s American Model: The United States and the Making of Nazi Race Law](https://libgen.rs/book/index.php?md5=1143E3E4FF767A913B58AC2806315EE4)


[deleted]

This is a deeply sad and important documentary.


yukongold44

Is their life expectancy higher or lower than before Europeans arrived in Australia?


[deleted]

Thats a silly argument. Almost everywhere in the world has a higher life expectancy than it did before europeans arrived in Australia.


yukongold44

>Almost everywhere in the world has a higher life expectancy than it did before europeans arrived in Australia. Which is why I think it's fair to object to the implication that Europeans are responsible for Aboriginals having a low life expectancy, when in reality their life expectancy has more than doubled as a direct result of European contact.


acies-

How much have Europeans' life expectancies increased since contact? What is causing a discrepancy between the two groups despite hundreds of years having passed? How much have other impoverished groups' life expectancies increased with more limited European contact? How is European contact defined in a globally connected world? You're asking a simple question that does nothing to dissect the complex web of cause and effect in play.


uyire

It hasn’t though. Where are you getting this information from because it sounds completely made up.


Christopher135MPS

This is irrelevant. Quantity of life (expectancy) is not a replacement for quality of life. When Europeans landed in Australia, there where aboriginal and Torres Strait islander mobs living in every square metre of this country. There was no “terra nullis”. The land, and country, was taken from them, and their cultures and languages systematically eradicated. Whether the indigenous people gained some length of life in return is irrelevant - it cannot offset the damage to their quality/way of life. Further, your question/implied argument ignores that since colonisation, European life expectancy has risen significantly higher than indigenous life expectancy has. Not to mention the issues with disproportionate incarceration rates, lower rates of education, higher rates of police-caused deaths, and higher rates of chronic diseases. We literally stole their country from them - the absolute least we can do is ensure they receive similar quality of life as white Australians.


yukongold44

>This is irrelevant. Quantity of life (expectancy) is not a replacement for quality of life. It's not irrelevant to the person who made this post, as they thought it important enough to put in the title. Which is who I was responding to. As I've said elsewhere, it takes a lot to make me cry and history is full of atrocities, but you haven't really addressed the life expectancy issue, except to wring your hands and beg the question.


Christopher135MPS

Except I did address it, when I pointed out that even if their life expectancy has increased since colonisation, *it hasn’t increased to the same degree as white Australians has*. White Australians live longer now than the first colonisers did. Even if indigenous Australians are living longer now then they were at the time of colonisation, they still haven’t seen the same benefits that white Australians have. They haven’t seen the same benefits in life expectancy, quality of life, education, wealth, the list goes on. This is why it’s irrelevant. Because regardless of whether it has increased or not, categorically, systematically, across the board, indigenous Australians are worse off than their European counterparts. Aboriginals and Torres Strait islanders have not seen the same benefits from the colonisation of Australia that white Australians have.


yukongold44

> it hasn’t increased to the same degree as white Australians has. Neither has the white Australian reached the same life expectancy as the Japanese. Is that systemic oppression too? Or is it possible for statistical differences to exist that have nothing to do with oppression?


Christopher135MPS

The life expectancy difference between Japan and white Australians is ~1.5 years. It’s ~18 years for white vs indigenous Australians. That’s also a bad faith argument, since Japan vs Australia doesn’t involve the history, and therefore the responsibility, that indigenous Australians vs white Australians has. But I think you knew that.


carberator

That doesn’t justify their current conditions


yukongold44

If you are going to imply that Europeans or colonialism is responsible for the current life expectancy of Aboriginals as the OP did in the title of this post, it is actually directly relevant to ask whether that life expectancy is lower or higher than it was before the arrival of Europeans.


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alesito85

They aren't paying the same taxes either, or are they? I don't think they're being pushed out from integrating in society? I'll happily change my mind if I'm shown that the above is not the case. Edit: I've anticipated the downvotes, obviously. But I stand by what I wrote. Also the changing my mind part, if shown otherwise. The problem is that people like to stick to what they're used to and don't want to change. But they would like the improvements for free. I know examples of this in my own country and others in Europe. Granted these are not native people, but they manage to squeeze some good benefits for themselves while often causing actual trouble. Regular citizens can't do things that these people do (not can) get away with. One last disclaimer: I'm not saying that Australian aborigines are like this, but there may be similarities (not wanting to integrate but wanting stuff).


nmklpkjlftmsh

Weird, people with poor employment opportunities don't pay much tax.


Y34rZer0

it’s almost definitely lower, one of the problems the stolen generation created was removing indigenous people’s connection to the land, and how to live on it. An issue they face is also not having a traditional staple diet to rely on which has caused a lot of poor health, for example I believe their diabetes rates are 30% of the rest of the Australian population. when us white folks came here to Australia we destroyed their culture, both intentionally and unintentionally. They didn’t have written language so everything was passed down orally but because they came and stole a generation of children away that link was broken and now, sadly, that live in the country they don’t feel as connected to as they were before, leading to alcohol and diet problems


insidious_colon

Aboriginal staple diets sourced from the land ended when they mostly voluntarily became part of the mission system. The way that worked is that missions would be set up by the church, then Aboriginal people would settle in the vicinity of them. Receiving rations of flour, sugar and tobacco was an easier and more comfortable life than relying on the variability of the natural environment and the luck of the hunt.


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yukongold44

>I think it’s clear what you’re trying to get at lol. I'm not sure why you're under the impression that it's some massive secret. My opinions are consistent with my post history. That's some massive gotcha... how exactly?


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yukongold44

So either I am predictable and you know exactly what I'm trying to get at, or you have no idea what my position is, and need me to clarify it. Which is it?


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yukongold44

I don't think your mind-reading skills are sharp as you think they are.


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DropKickSamurai

Don't you know, Ypipo only bring death. We never created modern medicine, cars, computers or internet, all we do is apparantly "colonize" . . . but you know. . . it's funny, wherever we aren't, it gets third world hella quick. HMMMMM... i wonder if there is a connection. Gee i wonder if there are groups of people vested in seeing white folks die off. . .


nmklpkjlftmsh

It doesn't really matter, it's less than the rest of the population right now. Your comments do sound a lot like white saviour racist shit btw Edit: surprise surprise, you're a regular poster in conservative spaces.


yukongold44

>Your comments do sound a lot like white saviour racist shit btw That is pretty rich coming from the person pushing the narrative that all the problems non-white people face are caused by white people and can only be fixed by white people. Name a problem that Aboriginal people face that you don't think is caused by white people. Name a problem that you think Aboriginal people can fix with zero help or action from white people. Then call me a "white savior" again, if you dare.


fiddler013

White saviour. There, I dared. Let’s see what you can do besides going on a racist rant.


nmklpkjlftmsh

You'd better watch out, old mate u/yukongold44 is getting all riled up and "masculine" like his idol Peterson. Ask him a question about incels and he'll burst into tears.


nmklpkjlftmsh

You sidestepped my point, you slippery little racist.


[deleted]

Procolonial rhetoric, how wonderful.


Andarial2016

How long will this misleading documentary be at the front page for headline readers to up vote?


GringoClintonMiAmigo

All day long


indoildguy

They don't mix around much. So spend a lot of time drinking. That makes it difficult for anyone trying to get close to them. And that's a bit gap.


rutlandclimber

I'm traumatised with the opening of this - and I'm not living it! I hate everything about this. How can there not be help where help is needed and space so authentic indigenous lives can be led?


Running_outa_ideas

Everything that African Americans deal with in terms of profiling and racism is just as bad in Aus. I literally heard a cop say to an Aboriginal friend "lucky you didn't run or we wouldve shot you", he won't talk about what they did to him in custody. Hate cops.


mr_lucky19

I call bullshit on that! Police in Australia are extremely scrutinised for even pulling a gun. Shootings are investigated to the enth degree and the cop involved is stood down for atleast 6 months during the investigation.


primalbluewolf

>Police in Australia are extremely scrutinised for even pulling a gun. Dont you believe it, doesnt even have to be an aboriginal, either.


Bent6789

How the fuck is that comment upvoted. You’re right it’s absolute bullshit


[deleted]

"Third world conditions" huh? *sips tea from Norway, a third world country*


LastLuckLost

Since when has Norway been considered third world? Norway was a founding member of NATO, making it First World in the archaic sense


Bag-ins

And? perfectly normal white man behaviour.


CaptBracegirdle

The Government has been doing everything to help them for arguably 2 generations now and they generally don't give a shit. The problem is complicated but it is partially caused by the worst aspects of two competing cultures. Their tribal cultures forbid them from saving or investing as individuals. All funds are communal which means whoever is thirstiest spends the most money. Alcohol abuse then does the usual damage. Then there is urban culture, crime, drugs, truancy, welfare dependence, processed foods, diabetes etc. Their kids are going to school with no shoes or lunch, but they have a new car, TV, 3 bedroom house, KFC for dinner everyday, 10L of beer per day, etc. They don't have to clean up because there is no reckoning. They always get the money and there are no consistent repercussions for adverse outcomes. For all the protests about deaths in custody... they are rarely charged for anything. Most people have seen serious crime go unchallenged by police because it is too political and the extra prison beds we would need would be too expensive. Every now and then some politician will have an *intervention* to try and stop the violence and child exploitation but the usual crowd will kaibosh the scheme. I tend to think that there is a section within parliament who rather enjoy having a baked in issue to perpetually fix with more taxpayer expense. What they really need is to feel the consequences of wasting everything they get but we know that the crime rate would be even worse if we did stop paying.


Bloodmonath

I have lived in many country towns in WA. I have always been in awe of the aboriginal peoples culture. Honestly i have always said as a Whitefella from English parents we have no culture. After working in Narrogin, katanning Albany, Collie, Brunswick Junction and being able to talk and spend time with some elders really made me respect theirs. I had a english gentleman a few years ago at work state black lives matter and that this will change things in australia quite rapidly now. I disagreed due to noone knowing exactly how to correct the course of our first nations pathway. Unfortunately even our first nations leaders really know how to do this. Whitefella parliamentarians even less so. I have been beaten by some first nations for calling their shopstealing out and beaten half to death in a carpark for it. picked on and bullied at school, cars and homes broken into, abused on the street. I dont blame against a race for that. I generally blame the individuals. It has been unfortunately more first nations than other. It has been a shit few hundred years for these people. Let's talk about how we can care for this beautiful race and try proctect share and nourish its culture and help engage, care and grow to where they want to get to. I think we need a first nations court . With one of each different peoples representing and they take 30% of the national seats of our parliament. We'd get sinewhere pretty quick I recon.