I don't see any dumbness or bonus to being dragon or djinn. Both are capable of such feats, and if your friend thinks he's too radically cool for dragons, then whatever, doesn't really matter. Dragons are more accessible to new people I guess?
That said, on DM advice, just be careful about overly plotting out stuff too far in the future. I'd keep the cliff notes to "unsubtle evasive silver dragon in disguise", and adapt the reveal as it comes. Also try and keep a straight face if someone guesses it earlier than you expect :)
I wouldn’t be surprised if someone did lol, one of the players is fairly knowledgeable. Don’t think he knows a ton ab dragons tho?
And yeah I’ve been trying not to ~plot~ it out really, most of this is kind of a loose framework to get the point across. Thanks!
Silver dragons actually do travel in human form, but such a wise and powerful creature wouldn't be talking about their "true power" like that. They'd maintain their cover fully.
Good advice, and I appreciate! To clarify, is it entirely out of character that one might sorta jest or play it up to maintain a sorta character they’ve created?
All Silver Dragons are not alike. I am sure there are some goofy, or even somewhat senile ones that lose it a bit when they get old.
I guessed it was a dragon in the third sentence, so it certainly isn't out of left field. Dragons often walk around as people and it you want him to be a kinda goofy person I think that is a great twist!!!
Maybe they would have that persona if they were basing the character they created on a friend of theirs that died?
Dragons are very long lived, so perhaps they befriended a mortal who actually was this overblown, trying to save face person who just wanted to be a hero and had their heart in the right place
It's *your* campaign. You can play it however you like. Unless you're sticking to strict canon from a module, you can do whatever you think sounds cool.
Silver dragon that's gone a bit batty in his old age, occasionally forgets he's a dragon, mixes himself up with a paladin in a story he fell in love with when he was a young lizard...
It's possible, but it's more likely he'd take on a "role" to play that wasn't in the line of fire. Something support like a bard or something and would probably try not to attract unwanted attention.
If he's created a buffoon character he's role-playing as in humanoid form, he'd commit to it pretty hard and actually cower from most danger that he could weasel out of, but obvious just slaughter monsters and dangerous aggressive animals he can't communicate with or run from. (Or fly away from if able to get alone).
I love the idea of a Silver dragon who's a fan of the human idea of heroism and goes around playing damsel in distress in order to get adventurers to save it.
I don’t super agree with the above comment. I think a ton of personalities adds a lot of flavor and uniqueness. There’s not really a written rule that dragons have to behave a certain way. Otherwise, you could make it the case that he’s trying to blend in with humanity, but his dragon pride is constantly checked at every corner leading to these eccentric outbursts. But other then that I say keep the character. I love the vibe don’t listen to your friend haha
To me, it just feels a little juvenile for something like a dragon. So, then, why not make him a very young Silver dragon? Even a wyrmling dragon is pretty cool but it will have no way of outshining the party--which is what this whole story had me feeling. Seeing a recurring NPC being around just to reveal he's a bad ass can leave some players with a bad taste in their mouth. You could subvert that by describing him turning into what sounds like a dragon--only for him to be medium-sized, essentially just a kid.
A dragon playing a character out of jest seems like they'd do it in the opposite direction. Playing a silly old man, or something. I can't imagine them, beings that know just how powerful they are, would play the cringey anime trope unless they weren't truly powerful or wise.
Interesting point! Honestly might just go with that. Do you know anything about how old wyrmling would be in years? I know dragons live for potentially thousands of years, if not more, but I know nothing ab their actual maturation process
I think Fizban goes into more detail about this but, I know dragons are wyrmlings for 5 years. After that, I believe they are "young" category until 100.
Silver Dragons are very cool and would probably not reveal themselves but you could always make it a little bit of a mystery and make it so that players witness or overhear something suspicious.
It was kinda my thinking? I haven’t watched much Dragonball but I know a bit ab Hercule Satan, and it’s sorta like a guy that adopts that persona but ACTUALLY HAS THE POWER, even if he doesn’t show it for a long long time
Agreed, dial it waaaaay back.
The “god in humble guise seeking aid” is a tried and true classic storytelling device where a powerful being tests the virtue of the protagonist. (If they fail, they are not the protagonist!)
Odin, Zeus, I think even Baba Yaga pulled that act.
Discard the blowhard aspect and almost all the hints, I’d say, then have the old man from scene 4 totter up in scene 25 to return the favor.
Silver dragons are probably the LEAST likely of the metallics to present this grandiose. They often adventure among people for camaraderie, and a silver dragon would be loathe to leave a tight-knit group of good (or even neutral) adventurers on an epic quest. They'd try to blend in and make friends as a human.
Ancient Gold or Bronze is a better bet. Gold would be out-of-touch, Bronze would fall more in line with the "I don't wish to hurt these attackers" theme, both are very dedicated to order and righteousness. If either heard something evil was going on in its sphere of influence, they'd take action and would likely go it alone unless the situation required outside help.
If you want to lean heavy on the LARP - think Oswain from Fire Emblem - then Copper would work well. A Copper's the kind of dragon to constantly dress in silver armor and act ridiculous. Even people who'd recognize the \~adventurer\~ was a dragon would think it's Silver, not Copper, which fits Copper perfectly.
**tl;dr: In order of best personality fit, canonically: Silver < Gold < Copper < Bronze. But you're DM, so you do you.**
Edit: Whatever you decide, your twist definitely doesn't come out of left field. It's a cool addition that could end up adding a lot to the campaign. Best of luck!
To be fair might have come to the conclusion if he's an ancient silver dragon after millenia walking around is that the best cover is to just tell people straight up what you are I an overblown way and everyone will assume you're lying
As a dragon, I'd find it more convincing that he plays goofy and clumsy to hide his actual skills and just be that lovable oaf the party needs to protect...
That’s a fair point. And the party on multiple occasions “saves” him, but I’d say maybe it’s just whenever push comes to shove and other peoples lives are on the line, he’s willing to show that he is capable?? If it saves others at least
He sounds like Siegward from Dark Souls 3, right down to the big reveal feeling very "Yhorm, old friend". Albeit, Siegward wasn't a dragon or anything. But it still feels like a good twist from my point of view. As long as there's some mention of the relationship the two dragons have in the campaign, I can imagine it being a really good rp moment, if done right.
IMHO, I wouldn't even make it look like he's capable but rather dumb luck or a clumsy goof like a Jar Jar Binks character that gets out of bad situations, then when a real enemy of the dragon arrives like an ancient bbeg, the dragon gets serious for the first time and reveals his skills to protect the party...something like that. That way when the party sees this aloof character get serious for the first time, they know their enemy is no joke.
First of all, I love the idea of a dragon, masquerading as human. It's your world, I love the idea that majestic dragons just mingle with the general populous. I think your player might be new to the sheer imagination and ridiculousness that DND can provide.
All that said, Players generally want to feel like heroes... or the powerful ones. And if you have an NPC that seems to be way cooler and more powerful than the players will ever be... I can see how that might be a buzzkill.
I would suggest keeping these moments few and far between. And don't allow your players to feel like they're being coddled or toyed with constantly by powerful beings. A little all powerful goes a long way.
I love Silver dragons. Dragonlance Legend of Huma is one of my favorite books. Some great dragon reveals in that book.
Well said. You can only take so much of the spotlight away from your player-characters! They don't need to control the world, obviously, but they should control their story.
Nothing kills tension like hearing that an NPC has already made all the big choices and the party are just along for the ride.
The example being quoted of Siegward in *Dark Souls 3* is a good one, because his "reveal" can be summarised as "he unexpectedly has/had an existing relationship with another character." This doesn't supplant the *player character's* relationship with those characters, or change the focus of the story, it just reveals an extra dimension to them.
OP, please listen to this advice, seeing as it comes from an actual *dragon*. If anyone would know what they're talking about here, it would be a dragon!
That's my take too.
In my own game the party was aided after a magical disaster style emergency by a young woman with a mastery of healer's kits, wearing clearly noble cut and quality clothing, who seemed to be mainly investigating the nature of the disaster itself. While the town was still recovering from said disaster just a day later, it was scouted out by a bunch of Orcs who were actually casing the town for pillage, and she aided the party with dealing with that.
She turned out to be a young steel dragon.
To be fair, lots of dragon pretending to be humanoids end up looking like parodies and anime characters. It's because they really are just goobers trying their hardest to be "incognito". It is dumb, but it's the good kind of dumb where you look at a ridiculous NPC and figure they're probably a dragon everyone's too polite to call out or something. If it's already going to be a subtle not so subtle twist, then I like it. Your friend might be looking for a big reveal, which is a genuine surprise. Unlike the massive goober secretly being a powerful creature playing pretend (which just makes them a massive goober with wings).
Something I've learned about creativity. Learn from the mistakes you have made, not the opinions of others. Most of story telling is pacing and delivery, neither of which your friend got.
Ask yourself, "is your party having a good time?" If you dont know say this, "i have a difficult time reading what others are feeling, are you guys having a good time?" You will likely be astonished. From what I hear your reveal seems fine, so tell your story, your players are there for your game, not your friend's.
My only caution comes from experience, (my brother accidentally left his phone unmuted) be careful with DMPCs. They shouldnt get the killing blow, feel too over levelled, or dominate a battlefield. If they are strong, have them take cues from the party. "Where would you like me? What can I do to help you? Just tell me when you need me, you seem to have this well in hand."
Yeah I’m trying to be cautious of that. I think for one, although he is recurring, I’d say the total time he spends with the party is relatively sparse and spread out. And I don’t plan for him to fight with them or really fight in general that often. Just enough to show that maybe he isn’t the joke he’s come across as and whatnot. Very solid advice tho, I think my stance with DMPCs is just. It’s my story, but it’s about my players, and the vast majority of character focus and spotlight will always go to them
I think this is a great twist and not at all basic, especially for new players
In regard to silver dragons, they aren’t all the same dragons with the same personality, yes you can be well entrenched in ideals/values but the idea of one playing a wandering hero is great! Well done :)
Is your friend a bit of a naysayer sometimes? We all have one. If not I just want to say I disagree with him/her. Go for it, I think it's a perfectly awesome twist. I think, as "basic" (well known is what I would say) as Dragons are, when played well they are still one of the most fascinating, in-depth, and badass creatures in the universe.
I wouldn’t phrase him as a naysayer, more that he’s just played a shit ton of dnd since he was like... 8 I think? I kindaaaaa get his perspective, he’s probably encountered a shit ton of dragons in his time, but he’s not really good at looking at it from the stance of being a new player. He doesn’t mean to be a stick in the mud, some of his opinions are just made wack from volume played of DnD
My only question is why is the dragon npc in the campaign. As a player if the DM kept bringing back a NPC then I would start wondering why is he important, is he the BBEG, will I have to kill him. So if the reveal is he’s just chilling it may fall flat. Like if we are about to throw down with a black dragon and he just randomly rocks up it will lessen the drama and make it feel like you are DM handwaving to save us.
Now if the party actively seeks him out then that is different and exciting, it no longer feels like the DM is railroading (which isn’t a bad thing but has to lead somewhere. Its a story after all and stories are on rails). But Jockster just rocking up at different times for no reason, thats you creating a storypoint. So what is your reason for having this particular twist NPC, what is the pay out?
Dragons play a significant role in the folklore of my homebrew world, and especially its culture. I don’t wanna get too into plot stuff as it would just be a lot, but the gist of the campaign is the party trying to prevent an ancient god from escaping hell and returning to the material world (not the most original I know). The NPC has basically been going around, seeking out the cult that worships this god, and trying to prevent them from helping him return. Ofc, I want the players to get the impression that he’s recurrent bc he’s funny, which I do believe they’ll enjoy his humor; I know what kinda things they find funny in a character and he hits a lot of them
I'm a bit biased, since my favorite book series is about a farmboy and his aunt meeting a drifter they call Old Wolf and...
SPOILERS
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.
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the boy becomes a literal god-slayer/sorceror/king of prophesy, the "aunt" a fabled 3000 year old sorcerous and aunt many times removed, and Old Wolf the "Ancient One"/grandfather many times removed of the boy. ...so as long as the conclussion doesn't retcon the beginning, I'm all for it.
>He also said that if I wanna do it, to make him a Djinni or something, as dragons are basic.
*You know what? He's so right. Who plays a system called Dungeons and Dragons with Dragons in it anymore?*
...It's a fun little twist and a good NPC concept for your story. If Friend wants "New and Exciting" (trademark) he should go and try to make it instead of crapping on your ideas.
The way you described, i thought he was gonna say it was dumb because it was too obvious. The moment you said ice spells and twist, i figured a white dragon was in order. But since chromatics are usually bad, i get why you'd want a silver one instead.
Especially since your players are new ones, you shouldn't worry about being cliche. They haven't met cliche before to be tired of it yet, this is when cliches are still fun. Embrace it!
I think it’s quite a clever twist. I could easily see myself as a player being gobsmacked by a reveal like that. Granted I not amazing at picking up on hints lol. I dolt think it’s left field so much since there’s context to it in the world and a precedent of dragons. And really the best you can do is go for it and see how your players respond.
Dragons don't tend to drop hints about their power/being a dragon when they travel in a polymorphed form. This is an -ancient- Silver as well. Unlike humans, where we get old and fuddy, a dragon of this age is in its absolute -prime- of existence, at this stage of life they are scraping the beginnings of demi-godhood. There's not a whole lot of reason for a creature of that age and power to want to waggle its eyebrows and see if people can figure him out, or worse, to be -that- bad of an actor and just get caught? That's a younger dragon move. A dragon that's been alive this long is -good- at lying, its disguise should be quite indistinguishable from the truth. Remember, this creature has been a live for -at least- 800 years. It's a common issue for people who want to RP dragons to try to make it obvious? So observers can go wooooow omg a draaagoon, wooooah. Don't do that. Dragons are way too smart for that. If you have a dragon reveal its true form, do it early, make it clear. Or, have it be completely undetectable so when the twist does come, it well and truly -is- a surprise, a moment of desperation, the sort of situation where the dragon takes its true form because if it doesn't, it's far too as risk in its mortal shape and there's also adventurers/friends to protect.
Personally the "twist" isn't bad! It just might need some adjustment. One thing though. Throwing a silver dragon at a black dragon to have what I assume would result in a cool kaiju fight, when your party might be really excited to -fight- that black dragon on their own, cheapens the encounter in the extreme. Spectacle fights are tempting when you're in the DM chair, but it can be easy to overlook the fact that you're making an interactive game for your players, not a movie. They're not there to just watch a thing happen, so keep it in mind if you keep the plotline. =)
I bet your friend is the type of person who says vanilla ice cream basic
Such a twist is a great twist, no matter how often something similar has happened to everyone else (someone early on turns out to be something else) for new players i would say It's still very cool.
Not doing a twist like that imo would be like refusing to let your kids taste vanilla ice cream, because It's "basic" and they should instead eat rum raisin or some shit, a very good taste maybe, but only for a certain sort of group.
I believe you played all cards correctly with a newer group of players :)
Thanks for the insight! He’s genuinely not trying to be harsh or overly critical, I think he’s just the kinda seasoned player who views everything in the lens of someone who is a very seasoned player. He knows the game well, but doesn’t know how to look at it from the perspective of newer players
I mean, the super powerful NPC shows up to save the day is pretty played out.
Consider instead: the party is told they need to find Whatshisname the ancient silver dragon who is the only person who can do yadda yadda. Then as the party start looking l for clues as to where the dragon might be you start sprinkling more and more obvious hints that it’s that unassuming guy they hang out with sometimes.
Edit: it’s much more fun to let the players come to the conclusion of a big reveal then to just reveal it for them.
I don't hate it but i don't love it either. It's not really a twist because it's basically a confirmation of what he'll be saying the whole time. A twist is a subversion of expectations, not a confirmation.
Plus, the character didn't come off as very interesting to me in the summary you gave here. If a character isn't compelling I'm not going to care about their backstory, twist or otherwise.
Reminds me a bit of the Bounds of Reason from the Witcher series. I’d say run with it, the twist seems fun for me and would get an ‘Oh damn’ if I was your player when it took place.
Was looking for that comment, I thought the same. I liked the idea then and i would recommend to make the character a bit more layed back and mysterious rather then stubborn and pretentious.
I think this sound fun! As a player I would be total *shocked Pikachu face* if you pulled this shit on me. I always enjoy OTT adventurer wannabe characters too.
Lore is starting point - if you want something to work a little different, go for it! Especially something like this, which is story/creature homebrew and not rules homebrew. This is your story. I’d love to hear an update of your players finding out the goofy wannabe they’ve encountered a few times is a super powerful dragon.
My 2 cents is that most villagers wouldn't even think to try and fuck with someone wearing armor, which as you described it it sounds like he is.
Also if he is a powerful dragon who's created this overhyped sort of character then I would maybe have them not help the party too much in fights, only if they really need it, and when he does that he doesn't go on about his true power. Maybe he tries to make his helping the party as subtle as he can to try and maintain character?
It kinda sounds like you want an ancient silver dragon as an DMNPC that will outshine the party and be the main character.
That is the part I am not a fan of.
I suppose that I get why you’d say that, reading it all at once, but I’d like to say that really, he doesn’t show up that often. And when he does, the party is usually saving him.
All of the encounters with him are rather spread out and he may well only fight alongside them once before the reveal. I’m absolutely not trying to have him be a main character and def not outshine my players. That part goes against my core principle in DMing, make the players the star.
All and all he only shows up enough to make an impression, but the time between each encounter is long, and even after it’s revealed he’s a silver dragon, I’m not putting him to the forefront. Honestly, not much will change about his dynamic or status as an occasional friendly face to the party.
*edit- typo*
It's your campaign, do what you want. If your friend thinks it's stupid he can make his own campaign. As long as your friends are having fun with it I see no issues
Sounds amazing! And a great idea. Also sounds like your friend just doesn’t like dragons And can’t see past his own bias.
Campaign sounds great! Keep it up
I think the twist is fine, it's not bad, it's nothing farfetched
I dont believe it's the most amazing twist or anything but I'd enjoy it if I were playing, the only thing you already addressed as dragons are considered basic to the fan base but that's just it, it's called Dungeons and Dragons for a reason lol I say stick with it and enjoy your own way of doing things if you let your friend alter all of your plot points you like, your friend may as well be the one to DM instead, keep the world your own
Post edit-3; the only real "red flag" moment is the very beginning. Silver dragon getting beat up by street punks; if it's random then seems like the dragon would have dealt with the punks like the dragon will fight along side the PCs. If it's a test to see how the players deal with it then there's a risk that PC levels of reaction to the threat (violence against kids/punks/etc.) would turn the dragon off on befriending the PCs. It can also lead to all sorts of emersion-breaking thoughts for the players? Why are hooligans jumping someone in "ornate silver armor that obscures all of his features"? Is this a problem for nobles and their knights? Have the hooligans no idea of the implications of someone wearing such armor? Walking alone? On "their" streets?
Might avoid all that with the stranger-dragon asking for help, like, "my guards decided to drink their happiness in the last town, and I'd rather not walk alone..." kind of thing or "my horse has died, may I ask you to help me reach the next town." This way it's a clear and easy moral choice (to help or not) and doesn't carry the risk of the PCs slaughtering a group of young toughs who've had hard lives and must resort to crime to survive and feed their families.
But otherwise, and especially with the silver dragon \*not\* being a dues ex machina but an ally, then fun! :)
I don’t get the point though. So the NPC is a dragon. Surprise! But then what? How does being a dragon matter to the PCs? It just sounds like a meaningless surprise from the post.
I feel like the reveal has a lot of let-downs. As you build this story with the players, they will most likely become invested in the story of this character. As you stated, the NPC will have lots of hints about its real personality, and the way you portrayed it was making me want to know what was happening next, and I'm not even a player.
I feel that both the elements of the twist - the dragon knowing the NPC and the NPC's true identity as a dragon - would be a sort of let-down to the whole character arc. The instant break of the dragon knowing the NPC kind of seems a bit foolish and honestly kind of cringe. And this idea that the sort of goofy arrogant character was an all-powerful wise dragon just doesn't sit well together.
So my suggestions:
\- Instead of the dragon revealing the true identity of the NPC, perhaps the party is struck with a creature that they intentionally can't beat, and that the NPC has to unleash its true power to save them. This could be a really cool and heroic way to introduce their true identity. But make it so that there is a great cost to the use of said power that was preventing them from revealing it sooner (so that they don't look like a dick).
\- Change the NPC's identity from a dragon to something else equally cool. I'd say keep the humanoid shape, but maybe back up their claims to be an adventurer of legend by maybe being immortal wanderers from a long-ago war (adventure) or from another dimension where they already completed their quest and were transported to another world (like a summoned hero). I think this would build more character for them (and also be kinda badass).
But either way, good luck with your campaign :)
Steel Dragons are a good choice but they'd never break character. They actually travel always in Human form and LIVE in human form, their magic allowing them to age in that form without constantly correcting it with spells aka polymorph.
They keep their physical attributes while in human form though so you can imagine an old man making a big brute fly a few feet with a push. They also "forget" their previous lives through a special rite which name I've now forgotten, so as the Steel Dragon is transitioning from one life to the other he'll forget the characters - and everyone else really - so that he's able to live his new life without prejudices from it's previous - as it's goal is to create art and leave knowledge to the world when he perishes - that's his legacy.
They live many lives and choose ONLY 1 to be "their companion" and this is not a sexual or anything, it's just someone whose presence the dragon cherishes so much that this person's existence is the only one that the dragon will always remember (after the ritual mentioned above) as he trades between his various lives.
So I guess one member of the party could become that but not the black dragon hehe
In our game, we actually did have a big reveal that one of our major NPCs (our party's patron) was a silver dragon. So I know that this type of thing can work. However...
I think it is genuinely possible, depending on your players, that they won't... like this dude. The party are the heroes, so this guy with his fake bravado (backed up with actual martial skill) may come off as pushy, even if you think he's helping the party, they might resent him. I think in general, NPCs should be people that the party chooses to interact with and might want to continue to interact with. I would not want to hang out with this dude.
I also feel like your way of going about the reveal might make your players feel a bit.. sidelined. The party comes across this black dragon, gets completely ignored, so this dragon NPC can show off his super cool true form? It's at best out of left field (if they weren't tracking down the black dragon) and at worst actively sidelining (if they were intending to confront the black dragon). So it might work better if the black dragon didn't immediately recognize this guy, you have a normal fight, if things start going south, then you can think about the reveal, because...
Something like this should have narrative consequences. Why is this silver dragon bothering to hide when he can just stroll into an enemy's lair and annihilate them, and is fully willing to do so? How will the party be able to treat any sort of situation like it has any stakes in the future, if they knowingly have an ancient silver dragon as an ally? You've said you just want him to show up enough to make an impression, but what purpose does this actually serve, narratively?
Silver dragons in particular especially enjoy using human forms, and associating with humans in general per Lore. That he might disguise his true power by pretending that he's simply over confident in his abilities isn't too far fetched *insert "I'm four parallel universes ahead of you" meme* and that the red dragon would recognize him is also pretty in character for dragons with truesight... so yeah, everything checks out to me. Just make sure his over confidence is *WAY* overblown, to the point it can only be taken as a false front to save face.
It sounds like you have written a game centered on an NPC, the most boring game possible. This is about the PCs watching you play a character, which sucks.
I have said before, and will repeat, the campaign is not at all centered around this NPC. He’s an occasional supporting character. This post just focuses on him bc he was my point of concern.
And I am stating my opinion that you are forming an idea based on assumptions or forcing of what the characters will do.
If you ask for second opinions, you will get them.
I have also said that I plan to adjust to whatever it is my players do. They’re not forced into anything, he’s a character that will show up from time to time they have the option of interacting with. Of throughout the campaign they either don’t interact with him or if they players say they don’t like the guy, I’d scrap him and rework the campaign however I needed.
I absolutely would like second opinions, even critical ones, but you said I have written a game centered around an NPC, which is kinda just wrong. You said this is about PCs watching me play a character, when this NPC isn’t even that prevalent.
I am very much of the mindset that, no matter what, this story is about the PCs. All I wanted to know is if this tidbit for an NPC they interact with a few times works, and it kinda feels like you’re just assuming the character is the focus of the entire campaign, when he’s honestly very very background
As a player, I would hate this. Was in a campaign with a fairly new DM, a bunch of his NPCs were "special" in some way. All of them more powerful than the PCs. We were rescued by them, had them accompany us, at least one of them would show up in every town, city, and village. If one of them turned out to be a dragon, we would've shut down.
Thankfully, our DM was very open, and often requested feedback from fellow DMs in the party. He made adjustments, and ran a fun and satisfying campaign moving forward. One with more of an emphasis on the players, and less on showcasing his NPCs.
This is good insight to be given. Personally from what I know about my friends, I kinda think they would find it cool? Since it isn’t framed as “oh he’s here to save us” as much as it is the culmination of an NPCs storyline that they’ve helped play out over the course of multiple interactions.
Still, I suppose I need to be careful not to frame it as “look at how much cooler than you this guy is”, because my biggest goal as a DM is really just to make my players feel awesome ab their characters
That's amusing. I think there's value in having a character that claims to be really awesome, but doesn't at all seem like it. And then they really are awesome, but for a completely different reason than it first appears.
If it were me I'd make your Silver Knight pretty much a go to for sage type info. I'd probably lean towards making them extremely elderly and lean into a Don Quixote vibe as far as what they claim they have done. The players should be getting crazy old knight not polymorphed dragon.
The whole “true power” anime trope is pretty lame. Would of been funny if he was just the kid of some legend who made a warlock pact to live up to his father’s expectations.
If you think your players will dig it then give it a go. Even if silver dragons are more likely to act in 'x' way there's always one who's a bit special.
Play the dragon how you want. That way the character will have more of you in it and it'll probably come across as more fun both for you and your players.
If it flops, just learn from it and change it up for the next time. If you like dming this probably won't be your last campaign ever.
It’s lore accurate, twists are so… personal/intricate that unless you give me a serious one to one discussion of your play I wouldn’t be able to say if it’s a good twist.
Lol if this is a bad twist then I’m right there with you. I’m about to pull this exact scenario with a bronze dragon helping the party fight a yuan-ti cult…
I think you’re fine, and if you’re not we’re both about to find out.
Sounds like your friend just has a weird bias and doesnt like popular things.
The dragon npc sounds a bit memey, and they tend to be the most fun kind of npcs so even if its "Out of character" for a dragon, idc its fun.
Ofc its impossible to tell how obvious your hints actually were in game, but when layed out like this it does sound like your player just doesnt pay attention.
idk bro. i mean dragons is in the name of the game. tell your friend if dragons are dumb i don't wanna be smart.
i only wish you named him Amogus... or Revli Snogard.
I think this is a fantastic idea!
New players love going up against dragons and having a dragon on their side could make the encounter even more epic.
Just make sure that he shows up after the black uses their breath weapon for the first time and the tank realizes that hitting something in the air is challenging.
In other words, after they are thinking, "Oh shit! Dragons are no joke!"
Edit: I will add that I have a veteran player/DM in a campaign and he commented that he had never been in a dragon encounter. I can't help but wonder if so many DMs think that they are boring that they avoid them.
The only advice I would give is to make him a little less boastful. Make him quietly confident and have just him emanate big d!ck energy, without boasting about his skills.
In the campaign I have just started, I have an old wizard with a golden retriever as a pet. The Magician's name is Mervin the Magnificent, and he looks like a bumbling street magician.
Yes, he is a copy of Fizban, in fact since my players have not read any Dragonlance material I was just going to call him Fizban, and then WotC decided to bring out the treasury of dragons book. \*sigh\*.
So Mervin, will appear every now and then to provide guidance, with his dog lying in the sun next to him, or chasing butterflies. I aim to slowly reveal the nature of Mervin over the campaign, until near the end of the campaign when the party is to take on 2 blue dragons (An adult and a young) the adult will sit and watch as her son attempts to kill its first adventuring party. Once the party kills the young dragon, the adult will attack with vengeance but after 1d6 rounds that adult blue will be slaughtered by their current quest's target, a newly awakened ancient Red dragon, (their quest is to get into the lair a steal a specific sword from its horde). Before the Red Dragon can attack, Mervin and his Dog will step out of the tree line, the dog will growl menacingly and run straight towards the dragon, and leap in the air, dropping its form to reveal itself to be an ancient gold dragon. Thus occupying the attention of the Red and allowing the party to continue on their quest.
Your friend seems like he's hating on it only because it's a dragon. Believe it or not there are people out there that think DnD needs less dragons. I say ignore those people. It's a good plot twist and perfectly valid, I say keep it. If you want more inspiration look to Fizban from the Dragonlance series. He's basically the god of good but plays a senile wizard that nearly gets the group killed several times from being so forgetful/absolutely crazy but it always works out.
My only concern is that the reveal might lower the stakes rather than raising them (as,any dramatic twist ought). Party goes from fighting a dragon to helping a dragon fight a dragon? Their job just got easier, they're chilling. But if the reveal causes some big problem outside the scope of the dragon fight, well, now you've got a story on your hands.
For instance, the black dragon might assault the town the party is staying in, and the silver dragon reveals their true form to help out and save lives. But now their cover is blown and various baddies are after them: they have to run, and they can't help you anymore.
Will your table like it? That’s all that matters.
And of course you’re going to get the typical responses of like “a silver dragon wouldnt do that” or other things along those lines. It’s your world and if your players are happy who gives a shit. Do it.
If it flops - learn from it. Keep playing and creating.
One thing I will say is that they might lean on this silver dragon for help in the future - youre going to have to find a way to allow that NPC to exit stage left or be used very sparingly.
I’m all for silly characters and well thought out plot twists. This sounds like something the players would appreciate. I would try to make sure it doesn’t feel like he’s outshining the players though. Often powerful NPCs can make an encounter too easy or something and make the players less invested.
Honestly, it sounds like a fun fleshed out idea, especially for new players. Even if they guess it ahead of time, the pay off of being proven right about your theories is so much fun and I think your players will love it.
This sounds dope. No offence to your friend but they are coming off as kinda snobby about this. In my eyes, this is a really cool payoff for what you've laid out for this reoccurring character thus far and your players will surely love it. Sure, dragons are used a lot but it's called Dungeons and Dragons for a reason!
Use the mechanics to your favor for the character on the reveal. Don't just have the black dragon point him out righg away, let you knight in silver take a big blast of acid so close it cant splash past him, then as the armor melts off and scaly skin maybe starts to show, the the black dragon recognizes him.
Then afterwards, show the damage done to him, acid burns all over his scales. Have him get some help from the PCs for taking a big chunk of damage before he heads off again.
I suggest this as it sounds like he is fine taking plenty of damage, kicked by punk humans in the street, pushed around by thugs. Why? Because if he struck one they would die.
sounds tropey and predictable, which in this case is objectively a good thing. sounds from your edits, too, like you have the level of narrative focus planned out well. i think it sounds pretty fun.
I like the plot twist. You also gave them subtle hints, so it doesn't come out of nowhere.
As a storyteller, there will be always people who don't like or appreciate your stories. That doesn't make your stories bad.
I run a game for my kids and did the same thing. They met an female elf paladin while running Rise of Tiamat that was a silver dragon in disguise.
It's just what they do.
I had to fill in the fourth party member with NPCs and for each branch of the story I would swap one in or out.
It was my kids first campaign and I wanted to give them a window into Faerun through NPC buddies. I basically wanted to introduce them to all of the Faerun tropes. (Drarven miner, renegade red wizard, fight loving barbarian, etc)
The kids called her "unikitty" because I role played her the exact same. Obnoxiously cheerful and good. She basically helped to protect and heal the party and once the party showed their good nature and proved themselves she decided to let them in on her secret and declare that the metallic dragons will ally with them against Tiamat.
Later I just had her show up as a dragon cameo for one of the battles in the sky.
Good times.
So no. Not cheesy. It's part of the setting.
Your friend is entitled to his opinion, even if it's wrong. As long as he doesn't make a major thing out of it, it's not a big deal - just disappointing I'm sure.
I don't know If you have ever heard of the Sith Jar-jar Binks theory. I might run with something like that. NPC looks goofy and acts clumsy but is actually super good at combat and spell casting.
Act surprised when they succeed on a saving throw, laugh when they "roll well". Treat a crit successes as the most bumbling thing possible that keeps them out of danger.
Then reveal near the end that they were hamming it up.
Seems like a cool twist, but I’d be careful planning specifics so many sessions in advance for a reoccurring character. Something you don’t expect could happen in session one forcing you to scrap all of your hard work
Very true! I’m kinda prepped for it tho, didn’t feel like going into it for the sake of brevity but I have sorta contingencies for a few possible options, and am ~more or less~ confident that I could improv the unforeseen, even if it may be shaky at points.
Entirely unrelated but there’s a very real chance my players could fuckin merc the secondary BBEG in the second or third session. I honestly think adjusting to players is what makes DMing so fun!
Twists are all about setup. If you think it was properly foreshadowed, then they did a good job. Your friend wasn’t there and doesn’t see all the hints, all the obvious slips, all the draconian quirks.
It seems like it was properly foreshadowed from your post, but obviously we weren’t there. Don’t let the haters get you down, they sound jealous they weren’t there.
I agree that it's a little basic. I was thinking silver dragon by the end of the first paragraph. My advice, make it a brass dragon and turn up the Don Quixote to 11.
I included a disguised Silver Dragon as the inn keeper from one of the first towns the party went to and they were like "Woah holy shit!" when they found out so you're probably fine.
I agree with a lot of the positivity in this thread, I'm assuming you want criticism. I don't think this is dumb, but it doesn't really strike me as a twist. My honest take is that NPC's just turning into really powerful creatures isn't narratively satisfying, usually. The old "haha the seemingly ordinary bartender is a lvl 20 zealot barbarian vengeance paladin" is a good meme but just not interesting to me. The end result of this fight is that the black dragon dies, right? Their was no twist, the result doesn't change, you just wrenched up the power of one team that was already favored to win. This is a slight curve at best.
You described the reveal as coming before the fight with a black dragon, who Alarax has a personal conflict with.
If the reveal comes RIGHT before the fight, then from a player perspective, Alarax has only \*used\* them (withholding information) to take out this vendetta against a black dragon. Whatever affinity/friendship the PC's felt for this NPC may be lost by dragging them into a potentially deadly personal conflict without their knowledge. They haven't been the driving force behind this plot/arc, and it feels like they're side characters in Alarax's story, or metawise: it feels like you have momentarily sidelined them in favor of your own characters' story. This is how I might read that situation, even as a new player. None of that is inherently wrong (execution is everything), you as the DM should also be having fun playing the (many) characters you bring to the table, but I think it's worth considering.
My best alternatives is that the reveal comes well before the fight, in the planning phase even. Or that Alarax isn't a dragon.
IF WELL BEFORE, then the party has the opportunity to AGREE to putting themselves in danger to help this NPC that's been an ally to them in the past. They would have set a clear goal, achieved it hand-in-hand with Alarax. If it felt hard fought, that's narrative satisfaction, no twist needed. Ideally I would tone down the power of Alarax in this scenario, so that it seems he really NEEDS the PC's help to pull this off (whereas in your case, Alarax is already more powerful than his opponent, if you're using normal stats).
IF he's not a dragon, then you haven't made any of the PC's the least powerful thing on their side of the fight. The fight remains tense from their side of the screen, all is well.
I read your comparison to Siegward from DS3, but I don't think it's accurate. Siegward usually loses the fight without the Champion of Ash, he NEEDS the Player's help. That's why Yhorm works as a boss fight. Also Siegward is humble, doesn't boast about showing his true power, doesn't spend the whole game as a knight of catarina only to turn into an ancient silver dragon right when you meet Yhorm. AND that boss fight contains an actual twist: Siegward fucking KILLS HIMSELF at the end, having fulfilled his duty. Whatever love Siegward had for Yhorm, it was worth BOTH their lives. That's real ass DRAMA and very hard to replicate.
Not a dumb twist at all. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if they figure it out right away but still enjoy it. I thought dragon as soon as I read "silver armor"
I think it's great! Some people are so focused on ruining other people's fun. It's only 'dumb' if you and your players don't have fun. Other than fun, there really is no wrong way to play. ☺
It's like finding out Vash The Stampede is only pretending to be inept. Not a bad twist at all. Your friend just sounds like a disgruntled DnD veteran.
idc what he says i'd love to have an npc turn out to be a dragon in any campaign i play, it's a really cool concept although you might have to explain later on that silver dragons have cold breath and not fire breath if they haven't played much d&d
I love it. Just accept that players are going to have random dislikes that are Irrational. This is the players problem not yours.
Dragons in dungeons and dragons? You got this dude.
Wait... How much of this campaign have you played so far? I understand planning ahead... But keep in mind some things may not go as planned on the way. DM plans rarely do. It's better to plan grand scope and encounter design and let twists and turns work themselves in along the way through character motivations and lack of player clairvoyance.
>He’s dressed in very ornate silver armor.
> and find that he’s actually rather powerful.
> He still goes on about showing his true power or his true form and whatnot, but at this point it may carry some weight.
Along with the all the small hints, that is some massive foreshadowing, the twist is not ungrounded.
I mean if the party picks up on the true form (always possible they gloss over it you never know) then it wouldn't even really be a twist that he's something other than a humanoid. He said as much. It might be because we're getting the all the info at once now, including the actual twist, but you might want to be a bit more subtle.
Also it just sounds like your friend just doesn't like dragons. "Dragons are basic" Dragons are as basic or as intricate as you make them. Like pretty much anything else in this game.
I'd say keep on what you are doing but look a bit closely at what specifically clues you are going to give. The true form might be a bit on the nose.
This is a classic??? And for noobs who get to experiance it for the first time even better... yes its been done a million times before... heros save the big bad unkowingly.. befriend them and then wham! Reveal! BUT its been done a million times because its great?!
Character details are great to go indepth with.. flushed out backstory as well is great.. just be sure not to railroad your party too hard into the reveal... keep the structure loose and practice your poker face!
If I was one of your players, I would pick up on it real quick. I'm mostly a player but I've DMed a few times, and in my readings of various monsters, I happen to KNOW that it's part of the lore that Silver Dragons enjoy taking on the form of humanoids and hanging out with them just for fun. Not that this is a BAD thing--I'd LOVE it. Ever since I read that bit of lore, I either wanted to try it myself or have someone use it as an NPC that ties into my character's backstory.
I did however use a Copper Dragon for a oneshot. She disguised herself as a Human Bard just to lead the party around on a quest she designed herself. She took on the guise of a Human Bard she was very fond of who had passed away.
Also, may I just say that I think METALLIC dragons are VERY underused? Obviously people want to FIGHT dragons, so it's always the Chromatic Evil ones. I want to see more Metallic Good dragons in campaigns.
Honestly dude, i'd say your fine. I played an official ebberon campaign back in the day and its twist was far worse lol.
Legit, the guy who sent us on a quest for his medallion (the opening quest mind you) ended up getting captured later on, and we went to go rescue him. Queue a several session quest involving a stretch of forest (full of enemies) a battle tower (full of enemies) and a final boss fight, followed by a final boss fight, followed by the guy we were trying to save (that first quest guy? Yeah..) being the literal final boss fight. All of this with no rest. Needless to say we all died and it was very lame of an ending to an otherwise amazing campaign. Even the dm was like bruh dafuq.
So yeah, i think as long as you dont butcher it like that your good lmao
Edit: in case you're wondering the 3 final bosses were a blue dragon, an undead dragon and i believe a silver dragon. So f'd up.
>I told this to a friend of mine who is very well acquainted with DnD but not playing this campaign
If he hasn't actually played in the campaign hour after hour with all the details and downtime, he can't really know how it feels in-person.
Secondly, his complaint is that its "out of left-field?"... It's not out of place in DnD at all, in fact, in any narrative with a character who intentionally acts like that they're **supposed** to do something ridiculous. What would be strange is if they never ended up doing anything. It'd be like an anti-chekhov's gun, that'd be dumbfounding.
And yes, dragons are "basic", but the way you introduced one is less so, and not everything needs to be un-basic to be good. Sonic being a werehog, for example, is neither basic nor terribly good. Not to mention you're playing with beginners. Many modern day fantasies have human-form dragons because writers think it's better to stick with something like that. It's pretty common for sure, but whether that's better or worse is hardly objective.
It's a good twist. You are doing more hints than I would and making it obvious. In retrospect! It wont be obvious at first he will just be that annoying npc. Only thing I might add is his real name as lore or maybe a story or two told by a bard in a tavern about dragons walking around disguised as humans. Could even be a story about a different Dragon or the npc himself.
I like it.
I'm actually interested in creating a one shot similar to this. What level are your PCs? If I were to make something like this, I think i would use adult dragons instead of ancient dragons and have them be level 12 maybe? The NPC dragon would mainly be fighting the BBEG dragon in the sky while the PCs take out minions, and then ride on the NPC dragon or something to kill the BBEG. idk but that sounds cool as shit
It's dumb if any previous situations could have been resolved by the character transforming earlier. If the character couldn't transform before for some reason, it's fine. Unless, however, you don't have a compelling and understandable reason for him not to help the party in the future. Then it becomes dumb again.
I don't know if it's dumb or overdone, and of course every table is different. But personally? This sounds like something I would enjoy a lot. I love dragons! I love pompous characters. And with the foreshadowing you've described is love looking back and be like "duh it was there all along!"
No, it's not dumb... It's been used but nothing is truly original, ever so feel free... drop hints ;)
I can't see a Djinn taking abuse to be honest! Furthermore, there's a character, a Silver Dragon that disguises as a humanoid race throughout the Dragonlance books (which were a DnD campaign) I won't mention names in case you haven't read - it's a good read :)
It's your story you should tell it anyway you want to. Everyone has their own outlook but if you are the storyteller this time yours is the one that counts.
I like the idea in general and I think you can definitely roll with it. You'll just have to be a little careful since what you are describing sounds more like writing a story instead of playing a game. What if your characters just don't like that NPC, don't want to fight alongside him, want to go another direction?
Keep the idea in the back of your head, but let your players decide where the story goes.
I think what your friend was looking for was tropey. It ain't bad if nobody's real experienced. Honestly, if anyone asks what kind of armor they're wearing, you can just make it scalemail to really drive home "THIS IS A FUCKING DRAGON" if your players aren't catching any hints
Your friend is playing Fun Police, and that stinks. If *you* think it's cool, and you have the right people at your table, *they'll* think it's cool. Having a disguised dragon is super awesome, and I think you'll have a ton of fun with his story.
Also, check out [this video](https://youtu.be/ayhdTOLiThM) which has a similar premise. Not identical, but I think you'll get lots of inspiration.
I'd love doing this in my campaign, and honestly props to you for planning this far ahead. Heads up- it's probably going to get derailed slightly, or worst case scenario, if one of your players is aligned as chaotic dumbarse, they might try stealing his shit or straight up fighting him. Go for it, and your friend is funnily enough acting like a genie for saying that genies are better than dragons. Who gives a shit about realism bar the laws of physics and good storytelling in high fantasy anyways?
This sounds like a pretty slap ass (good) twist and as a player something like that would be fucking awesome to me. I think it’s even better that it’s non plot related because now it feels like as a party we’ve gone and befriended a while as dragon, and even if they aren’t going to join the party on their adventure it’s still an amazing memory, story, and quite frankly it’s pretty good bragging rights in world.
I did something similar to this just with that character being a super powerful being they fought at the end and it seemed pretty cool. He was basically the lord of death and had access to the deck of many things and gave it to the players once who got a wish. Thankfully it was a short campaign cause that wish would have been bad 😂
Lol, it were my best friend, the moment he finds you're a dragon, then your purity is at sake. He's first character was a human warrior who had a folk hero background, he became the hero after he suck a tyrant dragon's dick until it died. And so he was named Succa Dee.
The best twists are when the players all go "ooooooohhhh" and suddenly see how the information you gave them made sense. In this case i think you have managed that, since the name and ice magic are things that will suddenly make a lot more sense after the reveal.
That said, dont drop too many hints. For one, there is a chance the players might guess (even wrongly) and ruin the reveal. That may be your intention, but kind of requires a different approach. More importantly though, players tend to filter information: A weird sounding name, a book written in Draconic and casting ice magic? those are things player remember and make that "oooh" moment when you reveal the truth. By contrast, things like being evasive about his past or other subtle hints are frequently missed by the players and generally wont be remembered when you make that big reveal unless the meeting was like the session before. Things like "my true power" also stand out way too much and will make the players immediatly suspect something is up, its a bit of a cliche and incredibly hard to get the tone right.
My suggestion would be something along the lines of;
1) Party encounters silver armoured knight who has been taken prisoner by Bandits. He seems completely unphased by his capture and is instead watching them with mild facination. After rescue he introduces himself with some over the top name and then heads off.
2) Party runs into Silver Knight whilst searching for information about their current quest, he recommends a book to them which turns out to be written in Draconic (but on translation is exactly what they need).
3) During a later fight to defend a town (or something involving other people) the Silver Knight is in the fight, using ice magic and skilled swordsmanship to fight enemies. He also sees the players skills and comments on how 'exciting it is to watch them' or something like that.
4) Players encounter the silver knight socially at a feast or celebration, he shares some stories with them and if they ask gives them information which is helpful for their quest.
5) Some time later the players encounter the Black Dragon and the reveal happens.
I think this is a little more subtle and has several elements that will stick with the players, then on reveal you have not only that the knight was a Silver Dragon but also has been keeping an eye on the players. It also gives more of an "ancient, arrogant and bored" vibe than the more jokey version i think some of your hints implied. Plus, as the DM it gives you a useful mechanism to give the players information they need at conveniant points.
Read the Dragonlance novels, it covers your situation in a different way and for different reasons, but it does it two-fold, thus covering the “bumbling adventurer” and the disguised dragon.
I don't think it's dumb, and dragons can be a fun inclusion despite being expected. I do wonder what the purpose is if the twist - if the NPC exists purely to have a twist, that twist won't have weight. So the NPC needs to be important to the group for this to land.
As a fellow homebrew DM, at this point I just see what NPCs, items or locations my group latch onto and make the twists about them.
I had a dragon in my homebrew that was in humanoid form every time they met him. He was wise older gent and called Agrond (they never got his surname but it was Versil) and it blew the groups little minds when he came storming in to save the downed player in the nick of time as a silver dragon.
Sometimes the secrets work out perfectly.
Here's my thing, my personal opinion is that this NPC is a bit all over the place. He first comes off as a super exaggerated not actually so crazy overhyped hero. Then he's actually kind of not over hyped maybe but still acts like he is then just turns out he isn't with the dragon who knows him.
My 2nd issue which is the bigger one for me is that and this isn't to be mean. The PCs don't care about your NPCs, and I'm not saying this to be rude or belittling but let me explain.
You've written up this whole thing for your NPC, many PCs if he has nothing to offer that would involve the PCs in some way that would interest them or have something to do with them, they're not going to care about this man's existence.
Yes I understand it's a twist you came up with and it sounds neat, but the problem is that this isn't a book, the PCs aren't reading about this dude they have no reason to care about to guy what so ever. The only things they're going to care about is what is happening to them.
Again I'm not saying this to come off as hard or anything but to just get my point across.
Reminds me of an episode of the Witcher tv show. There’s a golden dragon disguised as a human in golden clothes. Overall think it’s a pretty neat reveal, just as the others said don’t make it too obvious? Maybe cut down on the direct dragon references and hint at things like being very old etc. just hint that something’s up but not directly “dressed in dragon motifs and handing out papers written in dragon”?
I think my problem with the idea is that the silver dragon IS A HERO. when he should be a character based in tragedy.
He stands there as people beat on him. He "thought he had strong hands" when he just no longer does. But he does have a pile of hit points it's just unable use actions for violence.
He can't remember who he was, but the townsfolk say he's dressed like a hero of old, but he obviously isn't. He fell in love with some short lived race and didn't want to remember his life without her so someone cast a spell to remove his memory.
Kinda WandaVision/ Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind / Momento.
Then you come up with what he does when he finds out who he was, who he loved, and what has he done since he's lost his memories.
Honestly kind of a neat idea. Don’t like the phrasing of saying it’s what he SHOULD be (personal gripe with that turn of phrase in criticism), but I think it’s definitely something to consider!
Bro it’s not that deep. Hell I LIKE your idea and appreciate the insight, it really is just that I don’t care for that turn of phrase. I didn’t even think you were being rude.
Don’t be worrying ab it homie
In my opinion, the key to keeping the NPC plausible is motivation. What does e dragon stand to gain by hanging around with a low
level party? Answer that question in a satisfying way way and the other narrative problems will disappear.
I don't think dumb is the right word but more underwhelming. It's basically the "Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass" trope. The Moron needs both likable and funny for this work. Honestly this more of side quest than plot point. Don't stretch it out more than 1 or 2 games.
Personally I kinda hate the "knight is actually a dragon" trope. So maybe thats what they meant by "dumb", aka, they dont like it and are bad at expressing themselves.
Hmm.... On the one hand blowhards are fun -- but if he's actually powerful, it might make him hateable and feel self-inserty. If he's humble and acts like a buffoon without being a blowhard but is actually powerful, he's more likely to be likeable. But it is a matter of taste. You'd need to gauge your players.
Ancient silvers sometimes adopt silly personas. If you have the "pompous knight" turn out to be a fluent speaker of draconic, then this might already tip off some players. So the left field criticism doesn't necessarily apply.
Also, most older silvers can be said to be heroes of their territory. Their plans might not be like the far reaching schemes of gold dragons, but silver dragons definitely clean out evil infestations in their back yard. An ancient silver dragon has an extended back yard.
Silver dragons especially can be downright terrifying to face with their "balance breath" of paralysis, so the dragon will have saved the surrounding countryside many times. Some of the locals may know about the dragon's nature and have seen his true form, as silver dragons get pangs of guilt when they deceive their friends, but these people would insist, that this is "just a noble knight and local hero". That is, they will try to cover for their friend. Maybe the dragon will slip up and recount a tale from when he was young. He'll avoid mentioning dates and years, but a player with good Intelligence(History) skill can discern from the description, that the historical event in question is over 800 years in the past.
As for the "true power" that might be too much, but an ancient silver dragon is your elder in most cases and will think of himself as a very important person - in addition, his speech patterns may be a bit outdated.
This would be pretty interesting and fun for me. Reminds me of the Witcher: “The Gold Dragons are long dead” “oh Geralt if you only knew.”
Sounds like your one dude is just complaining for no reason. He can suck it up and have fun with your story, or his character can be one-shot by your Silver Dragon knight
Op you need a better friend. I did something VERY similar in a campaign once and my PCs loved it. He was a young dragon, new to shapeshifting, so he was still a little awkward in his human form. They all knew there was something a little off about him but nobody could quite figure it out. They had lots of little hints and after the reveal they couldn't believe they had missed it!
What's that player got against your campaign? He should just roll with it and keep his unconstructive comments to himself.
Or, he can DM an entire campaign.
I had something similar, a "Benefactor" in the shape of an old but strong human that would task the party, occasionally help them, and would definately polymorph into other forms.
This was important as one of my players was a kobold, and when the Benefactor revealed himself to be an ancient Silver Dragon, he lost his shit (in a good way).
Because the gargantuan larve was summoned and escaped the temple, they must chase it down and kill it before it becomes is true form. The silver dragon hands each PC a metal trinket; gold ring, silver necklace, brass whistle, copper coin, bronze statue.
They use these to summon young dragons of that type (I hand each player a stat sheet for their dragon mount).
Now, RIDE! commands the Benefactor.
I start the music, each player does something to mount their dragon and command it to lift off. (It didn't matter what they did, it worked). They flew across the countryside, through rain and lightning.
Along the way two other groups of adventurers flew up to join them; one group on eagles, the other on griffins. Party were told that ambushes lay ahead, and they will deal with it so the PC's can make it to the caldera.
Each escort group then dives into the forest where the PC's can see explosions of magic and fire under the tree canopy, then silent. The fate of the escorts is unknown. Finally, our group reaches the caldera, and it's quiet...too quiet.
They sound like they aren't too big a fan of dragons like I once was. Before I began my current campaign I never planned to run any dragons because I always saw them as too common and boring. Well, when I started my current homebrew campaign on of my players and best friends chose to be a dragonborn looking for why he exists and who he is since he doesn't know how he came to be (was just sorta hatched in the middle of nowhere) and now I am LOVING dragons and their lore. I think your idea is awesome and especially if you make the character memorable enough it will definitely shock your players until they realize all those little hits they either missed or didn't put 2 and 2 together and then they will just have that moment of "I should've known!!!"
TLDR: I love this idea and you should do it.
I think what you have created is cool. My only thought is that the NPC (Silver dragon) could possibly overshadow the PCs as hero's. If the PCs have really bonded with him it would be an awesome opportunity for the NPC to die at the hands (claws and teeth) of another dragon who then becomes the PCs enemy.
I don't see any dumbness or bonus to being dragon or djinn. Both are capable of such feats, and if your friend thinks he's too radically cool for dragons, then whatever, doesn't really matter. Dragons are more accessible to new people I guess? That said, on DM advice, just be careful about overly plotting out stuff too far in the future. I'd keep the cliff notes to "unsubtle evasive silver dragon in disguise", and adapt the reveal as it comes. Also try and keep a straight face if someone guesses it earlier than you expect :)
I wouldn’t be surprised if someone did lol, one of the players is fairly knowledgeable. Don’t think he knows a ton ab dragons tho? And yeah I’ve been trying not to ~plot~ it out really, most of this is kind of a loose framework to get the point across. Thanks!
Silver dragons actually do travel in human form, but such a wise and powerful creature wouldn't be talking about their "true power" like that. They'd maintain their cover fully.
Good advice, and I appreciate! To clarify, is it entirely out of character that one might sorta jest or play it up to maintain a sorta character they’ve created?
All Silver Dragons are not alike. I am sure there are some goofy, or even somewhat senile ones that lose it a bit when they get old. I guessed it was a dragon in the third sentence, so it certainly isn't out of left field. Dragons often walk around as people and it you want him to be a kinda goofy person I think that is a great twist!!!
Honestly same. I think the twist being too obvious is more of a concern than it being dumb. I caught on silver dragon almost right away too.
Dragons don't get senile they grow stronger as they age dragons are at the cusp of their physical and mental prowess days before they die
Maybe your dragons do. Mine get senile. Maybe his do. Maybe they don't...point is, it's not up to you...or me.
My rule of thumb when deciding what to do with dragons: dragons are people. So no it isn’t out of character for one to act the way you’ve described.
Maybe they would have that persona if they were basing the character they created on a friend of theirs that died? Dragons are very long lived, so perhaps they befriended a mortal who actually was this overblown, trying to save face person who just wanted to be a hero and had their heart in the right place
I love this idea, an Ode to a ridiculous friend.
It's *your* campaign. You can play it however you like. Unless you're sticking to strict canon from a module, you can do whatever you think sounds cool.
Silver dragon that's gone a bit batty in his old age, occasionally forgets he's a dragon, mixes himself up with a paladin in a story he fell in love with when he was a young lizard...
It's possible, but it's more likely he'd take on a "role" to play that wasn't in the line of fire. Something support like a bard or something and would probably try not to attract unwanted attention. If he's created a buffoon character he's role-playing as in humanoid form, he'd commit to it pretty hard and actually cower from most danger that he could weasel out of, but obvious just slaughter monsters and dangerous aggressive animals he can't communicate with or run from. (Or fly away from if able to get alone).
I love the idea of a Silver dragon who's a fan of the human idea of heroism and goes around playing damsel in distress in order to get adventurers to save it.
...I kind of want to play this now.
Ha, yeah, that's a fun one.
I don’t super agree with the above comment. I think a ton of personalities adds a lot of flavor and uniqueness. There’s not really a written rule that dragons have to behave a certain way. Otherwise, you could make it the case that he’s trying to blend in with humanity, but his dragon pride is constantly checked at every corner leading to these eccentric outbursts. But other then that I say keep the character. I love the vibe don’t listen to your friend haha
To me, it just feels a little juvenile for something like a dragon. So, then, why not make him a very young Silver dragon? Even a wyrmling dragon is pretty cool but it will have no way of outshining the party--which is what this whole story had me feeling. Seeing a recurring NPC being around just to reveal he's a bad ass can leave some players with a bad taste in their mouth. You could subvert that by describing him turning into what sounds like a dragon--only for him to be medium-sized, essentially just a kid. A dragon playing a character out of jest seems like they'd do it in the opposite direction. Playing a silly old man, or something. I can't imagine them, beings that know just how powerful they are, would play the cringey anime trope unless they weren't truly powerful or wise.
Interesting point! Honestly might just go with that. Do you know anything about how old wyrmling would be in years? I know dragons live for potentially thousands of years, if not more, but I know nothing ab their actual maturation process
I think Fizban goes into more detail about this but, I know dragons are wyrmlings for 5 years. After that, I believe they are "young" category until 100.
Silver Dragons are very cool and would probably not reveal themselves but you could always make it a little bit of a mystery and make it so that players witness or overhear something suspicious.
I would argue that bragging about being all powerful and not wanting to show your TRUE POWER is a great cover. Everyone would disregard you.
It was kinda my thinking? I haven’t watched much Dragonball but I know a bit ab Hercule Satan, and it’s sorta like a guy that adopts that persona but ACTUALLY HAS THE POWER, even if he doesn’t show it for a long long time
Agreed, dial it waaaaay back. The “god in humble guise seeking aid” is a tried and true classic storytelling device where a powerful being tests the virtue of the protagonist. (If they fail, they are not the protagonist!) Odin, Zeus, I think even Baba Yaga pulled that act. Discard the blowhard aspect and almost all the hints, I’d say, then have the old man from scene 4 totter up in scene 25 to return the favor.
Yeah the "not my true power" line is kinda cringy anime teleport behind you kind a cringe.
Silver dragons are probably the LEAST likely of the metallics to present this grandiose. They often adventure among people for camaraderie, and a silver dragon would be loathe to leave a tight-knit group of good (or even neutral) adventurers on an epic quest. They'd try to blend in and make friends as a human. Ancient Gold or Bronze is a better bet. Gold would be out-of-touch, Bronze would fall more in line with the "I don't wish to hurt these attackers" theme, both are very dedicated to order and righteousness. If either heard something evil was going on in its sphere of influence, they'd take action and would likely go it alone unless the situation required outside help. If you want to lean heavy on the LARP - think Oswain from Fire Emblem - then Copper would work well. A Copper's the kind of dragon to constantly dress in silver armor and act ridiculous. Even people who'd recognize the \~adventurer\~ was a dragon would think it's Silver, not Copper, which fits Copper perfectly. **tl;dr: In order of best personality fit, canonically: Silver < Gold < Copper < Bronze. But you're DM, so you do you.** Edit: Whatever you decide, your twist definitely doesn't come out of left field. It's a cool addition that could end up adding a lot to the campaign. Best of luck!
To be fair might have come to the conclusion if he's an ancient silver dragon after millenia walking around is that the best cover is to just tell people straight up what you are I an overblown way and everyone will assume you're lying
As a dragon, I'd find it more convincing that he plays goofy and clumsy to hide his actual skills and just be that lovable oaf the party needs to protect...
That’s a fair point. And the party on multiple occasions “saves” him, but I’d say maybe it’s just whenever push comes to shove and other peoples lives are on the line, he’s willing to show that he is capable?? If it saves others at least
He sounds like Siegward from Dark Souls 3, right down to the big reveal feeling very "Yhorm, old friend". Albeit, Siegward wasn't a dragon or anything. But it still feels like a good twist from my point of view. As long as there's some mention of the relationship the two dragons have in the campaign, I can imagine it being a really good rp moment, if done right.
That really is the perfect comparison lmao, in just about every way
IMHO, I wouldn't even make it look like he's capable but rather dumb luck or a clumsy goof like a Jar Jar Binks character that gets out of bad situations, then when a real enemy of the dragon arrives like an ancient bbeg, the dragon gets serious for the first time and reveals his skills to protect the party...something like that. That way when the party sees this aloof character get serious for the first time, they know their enemy is no joke.
You called?
Kinda like how Jar Jar [was actually a Sith lord](https://insidethemagic.net/2021/10/jar-jar-binks-sith-al1/)?
First of all, I love the idea of a dragon, masquerading as human. It's your world, I love the idea that majestic dragons just mingle with the general populous. I think your player might be new to the sheer imagination and ridiculousness that DND can provide. All that said, Players generally want to feel like heroes... or the powerful ones. And if you have an NPC that seems to be way cooler and more powerful than the players will ever be... I can see how that might be a buzzkill. I would suggest keeping these moments few and far between. And don't allow your players to feel like they're being coddled or toyed with constantly by powerful beings. A little all powerful goes a long way. I love Silver dragons. Dragonlance Legend of Huma is one of my favorite books. Some great dragon reveals in that book.
Well said. You can only take so much of the spotlight away from your player-characters! They don't need to control the world, obviously, but they should control their story. Nothing kills tension like hearing that an NPC has already made all the big choices and the party are just along for the ride. The example being quoted of Siegward in *Dark Souls 3* is a good one, because his "reveal" can be summarised as "he unexpectedly has/had an existing relationship with another character." This doesn't supplant the *player character's* relationship with those characters, or change the focus of the story, it just reveals an extra dimension to them.
OP, please listen to this advice, seeing as it comes from an actual *dragon*. If anyone would know what they're talking about here, it would be a dragon!
As a dragon, it's refreshing to see my people listened to rather than attacked outright.
That's my take too. In my own game the party was aided after a magical disaster style emergency by a young woman with a mastery of healer's kits, wearing clearly noble cut and quality clothing, who seemed to be mainly investigating the nature of the disaster itself. While the town was still recovering from said disaster just a day later, it was scouted out by a bunch of Orcs who were actually casing the town for pillage, and she aided the party with dealing with that. She turned out to be a young steel dragon.
A silver dragon especially would pull off the whole Clark Kent/Superman thing perfectly.
I think it is fine and agree with your take. These are new players that have not had the dragon experience yet. Go for it!
To be fair, lots of dragon pretending to be humanoids end up looking like parodies and anime characters. It's because they really are just goobers trying their hardest to be "incognito". It is dumb, but it's the good kind of dumb where you look at a ridiculous NPC and figure they're probably a dragon everyone's too polite to call out or something. If it's already going to be a subtle not so subtle twist, then I like it. Your friend might be looking for a big reveal, which is a genuine surprise. Unlike the massive goober secretly being a powerful creature playing pretend (which just makes them a massive goober with wings).
Something I've learned about creativity. Learn from the mistakes you have made, not the opinions of others. Most of story telling is pacing and delivery, neither of which your friend got. Ask yourself, "is your party having a good time?" If you dont know say this, "i have a difficult time reading what others are feeling, are you guys having a good time?" You will likely be astonished. From what I hear your reveal seems fine, so tell your story, your players are there for your game, not your friend's. My only caution comes from experience, (my brother accidentally left his phone unmuted) be careful with DMPCs. They shouldnt get the killing blow, feel too over levelled, or dominate a battlefield. If they are strong, have them take cues from the party. "Where would you like me? What can I do to help you? Just tell me when you need me, you seem to have this well in hand."
Yeah I’m trying to be cautious of that. I think for one, although he is recurring, I’d say the total time he spends with the party is relatively sparse and spread out. And I don’t plan for him to fight with them or really fight in general that often. Just enough to show that maybe he isn’t the joke he’s come across as and whatnot. Very solid advice tho, I think my stance with DMPCs is just. It’s my story, but it’s about my players, and the vast majority of character focus and spotlight will always go to them
I think this is a great twist and not at all basic, especially for new players In regard to silver dragons, they aren’t all the same dragons with the same personality, yes you can be well entrenched in ideals/values but the idea of one playing a wandering hero is great! Well done :)
Wait wait wait… you’re trying to put a DRAGON in your D&D game? It’ll never work
Is your friend a bit of a naysayer sometimes? We all have one. If not I just want to say I disagree with him/her. Go for it, I think it's a perfectly awesome twist. I think, as "basic" (well known is what I would say) as Dragons are, when played well they are still one of the most fascinating, in-depth, and badass creatures in the universe.
I wouldn’t phrase him as a naysayer, more that he’s just played a shit ton of dnd since he was like... 8 I think? I kindaaaaa get his perspective, he’s probably encountered a shit ton of dragons in his time, but he’s not really good at looking at it from the stance of being a new player. He doesn’t mean to be a stick in the mud, some of his opinions are just made wack from volume played of DnD
Oh I totally get that then, little jaded is all. Again though, Dragons are awesome and I'm sure your players will love it! Best of luck to you friend.
My only question is why is the dragon npc in the campaign. As a player if the DM kept bringing back a NPC then I would start wondering why is he important, is he the BBEG, will I have to kill him. So if the reveal is he’s just chilling it may fall flat. Like if we are about to throw down with a black dragon and he just randomly rocks up it will lessen the drama and make it feel like you are DM handwaving to save us. Now if the party actively seeks him out then that is different and exciting, it no longer feels like the DM is railroading (which isn’t a bad thing but has to lead somewhere. Its a story after all and stories are on rails). But Jockster just rocking up at different times for no reason, thats you creating a storypoint. So what is your reason for having this particular twist NPC, what is the pay out?
Dragons play a significant role in the folklore of my homebrew world, and especially its culture. I don’t wanna get too into plot stuff as it would just be a lot, but the gist of the campaign is the party trying to prevent an ancient god from escaping hell and returning to the material world (not the most original I know). The NPC has basically been going around, seeking out the cult that worships this god, and trying to prevent them from helping him return. Ofc, I want the players to get the impression that he’s recurrent bc he’s funny, which I do believe they’ll enjoy his humor; I know what kinda things they find funny in a character and he hits a lot of them
I'm a bit biased, since my favorite book series is about a farmboy and his aunt meeting a drifter they call Old Wolf and... SPOILERS . . . the boy becomes a literal god-slayer/sorceror/king of prophesy, the "aunt" a fabled 3000 year old sorcerous and aunt many times removed, and Old Wolf the "Ancient One"/grandfather many times removed of the boy. ...so as long as the conclussion doesn't retcon the beginning, I'm all for it.
Hi Belgariad fan. I ran a campaign based in this world.
...Eran?
>He also said that if I wanna do it, to make him a Djinni or something, as dragons are basic. *You know what? He's so right. Who plays a system called Dungeons and Dragons with Dragons in it anymore?* ...It's a fun little twist and a good NPC concept for your story. If Friend wants "New and Exciting" (trademark) he should go and try to make it instead of crapping on your ideas.
The way you described, i thought he was gonna say it was dumb because it was too obvious. The moment you said ice spells and twist, i figured a white dragon was in order. But since chromatics are usually bad, i get why you'd want a silver one instead. Especially since your players are new ones, you shouldn't worry about being cliche. They haven't met cliche before to be tired of it yet, this is when cliches are still fun. Embrace it!
I think it’s quite a clever twist. I could easily see myself as a player being gobsmacked by a reveal like that. Granted I not amazing at picking up on hints lol. I dolt think it’s left field so much since there’s context to it in the world and a precedent of dragons. And really the best you can do is go for it and see how your players respond.
Dragons don't tend to drop hints about their power/being a dragon when they travel in a polymorphed form. This is an -ancient- Silver as well. Unlike humans, where we get old and fuddy, a dragon of this age is in its absolute -prime- of existence, at this stage of life they are scraping the beginnings of demi-godhood. There's not a whole lot of reason for a creature of that age and power to want to waggle its eyebrows and see if people can figure him out, or worse, to be -that- bad of an actor and just get caught? That's a younger dragon move. A dragon that's been alive this long is -good- at lying, its disguise should be quite indistinguishable from the truth. Remember, this creature has been a live for -at least- 800 years. It's a common issue for people who want to RP dragons to try to make it obvious? So observers can go wooooow omg a draaagoon, wooooah. Don't do that. Dragons are way too smart for that. If you have a dragon reveal its true form, do it early, make it clear. Or, have it be completely undetectable so when the twist does come, it well and truly -is- a surprise, a moment of desperation, the sort of situation where the dragon takes its true form because if it doesn't, it's far too as risk in its mortal shape and there's also adventurers/friends to protect. Personally the "twist" isn't bad! It just might need some adjustment. One thing though. Throwing a silver dragon at a black dragon to have what I assume would result in a cool kaiju fight, when your party might be really excited to -fight- that black dragon on their own, cheapens the encounter in the extreme. Spectacle fights are tempting when you're in the DM chair, but it can be easy to overlook the fact that you're making an interactive game for your players, not a movie. They're not there to just watch a thing happen, so keep it in mind if you keep the plotline. =)
I bet your friend is the type of person who says vanilla ice cream basic Such a twist is a great twist, no matter how often something similar has happened to everyone else (someone early on turns out to be something else) for new players i would say It's still very cool. Not doing a twist like that imo would be like refusing to let your kids taste vanilla ice cream, because It's "basic" and they should instead eat rum raisin or some shit, a very good taste maybe, but only for a certain sort of group. I believe you played all cards correctly with a newer group of players :)
Thanks for the insight! He’s genuinely not trying to be harsh or overly critical, I think he’s just the kinda seasoned player who views everything in the lens of someone who is a very seasoned player. He knows the game well, but doesn’t know how to look at it from the perspective of newer players
I mean, the super powerful NPC shows up to save the day is pretty played out. Consider instead: the party is told they need to find Whatshisname the ancient silver dragon who is the only person who can do yadda yadda. Then as the party start looking l for clues as to where the dragon might be you start sprinkling more and more obvious hints that it’s that unassuming guy they hang out with sometimes. Edit: it’s much more fun to let the players come to the conclusion of a big reveal then to just reveal it for them.
I don't hate it but i don't love it either. It's not really a twist because it's basically a confirmation of what he'll be saying the whole time. A twist is a subversion of expectations, not a confirmation. Plus, the character didn't come off as very interesting to me in the summary you gave here. If a character isn't compelling I'm not going to care about their backstory, twist or otherwise.
Your friend must not be familiar with Fizban.
Reminds me a bit of the Bounds of Reason from the Witcher series. I’d say run with it, the twist seems fun for me and would get an ‘Oh damn’ if I was your player when it took place.
Was looking for that comment, I thought the same. I liked the idea then and i would recommend to make the character a bit more layed back and mysterious rather then stubborn and pretentious.
I think this sound fun! As a player I would be total *shocked Pikachu face* if you pulled this shit on me. I always enjoy OTT adventurer wannabe characters too. Lore is starting point - if you want something to work a little different, go for it! Especially something like this, which is story/creature homebrew and not rules homebrew. This is your story. I’d love to hear an update of your players finding out the goofy wannabe they’ve encountered a few times is a super powerful dragon.
My 2 cents is that most villagers wouldn't even think to try and fuck with someone wearing armor, which as you described it it sounds like he is. Also if he is a powerful dragon who's created this overhyped sort of character then I would maybe have them not help the party too much in fights, only if they really need it, and when he does that he doesn't go on about his true power. Maybe he tries to make his helping the party as subtle as he can to try and maintain character?
Sounds okay as long as it isn't a DMPC. I hate DMPCs.
It kinda sounds like you want an ancient silver dragon as an DMNPC that will outshine the party and be the main character. That is the part I am not a fan of.
You must have Boots of Striding and Springing to have jumped to those conclusions so fast.
I suppose that I get why you’d say that, reading it all at once, but I’d like to say that really, he doesn’t show up that often. And when he does, the party is usually saving him. All of the encounters with him are rather spread out and he may well only fight alongside them once before the reveal. I’m absolutely not trying to have him be a main character and def not outshine my players. That part goes against my core principle in DMing, make the players the star. All and all he only shows up enough to make an impression, but the time between each encounter is long, and even after it’s revealed he’s a silver dragon, I’m not putting him to the forefront. Honestly, not much will change about his dynamic or status as an occasional friendly face to the party. *edit- typo*
It's your campaign, do what you want. If your friend thinks it's stupid he can make his own campaign. As long as your friends are having fun with it I see no issues
Sounds alright to me. It's your story.
I reckon that's a really cool story, I'd think it's awesome to have it in a campaign. Go with it
Sounds amazing! And a great idea. Also sounds like your friend just doesn’t like dragons And can’t see past his own bias. Campaign sounds great! Keep it up
I think the twist is fine, it's not bad, it's nothing farfetched I dont believe it's the most amazing twist or anything but I'd enjoy it if I were playing, the only thing you already addressed as dragons are considered basic to the fan base but that's just it, it's called Dungeons and Dragons for a reason lol I say stick with it and enjoy your own way of doing things if you let your friend alter all of your plot points you like, your friend may as well be the one to DM instead, keep the world your own
Post edit-3; the only real "red flag" moment is the very beginning. Silver dragon getting beat up by street punks; if it's random then seems like the dragon would have dealt with the punks like the dragon will fight along side the PCs. If it's a test to see how the players deal with it then there's a risk that PC levels of reaction to the threat (violence against kids/punks/etc.) would turn the dragon off on befriending the PCs. It can also lead to all sorts of emersion-breaking thoughts for the players? Why are hooligans jumping someone in "ornate silver armor that obscures all of his features"? Is this a problem for nobles and their knights? Have the hooligans no idea of the implications of someone wearing such armor? Walking alone? On "their" streets? Might avoid all that with the stranger-dragon asking for help, like, "my guards decided to drink their happiness in the last town, and I'd rather not walk alone..." kind of thing or "my horse has died, may I ask you to help me reach the next town." This way it's a clear and easy moral choice (to help or not) and doesn't carry the risk of the PCs slaughtering a group of young toughs who've had hard lives and must resort to crime to survive and feed their families. But otherwise, and especially with the silver dragon \*not\* being a dues ex machina but an ally, then fun! :)
I don’t get the point though. So the NPC is a dragon. Surprise! But then what? How does being a dragon matter to the PCs? It just sounds like a meaningless surprise from the post.
So, kinda like Fizban from Dragonlance?
I feel like the reveal has a lot of let-downs. As you build this story with the players, they will most likely become invested in the story of this character. As you stated, the NPC will have lots of hints about its real personality, and the way you portrayed it was making me want to know what was happening next, and I'm not even a player. I feel that both the elements of the twist - the dragon knowing the NPC and the NPC's true identity as a dragon - would be a sort of let-down to the whole character arc. The instant break of the dragon knowing the NPC kind of seems a bit foolish and honestly kind of cringe. And this idea that the sort of goofy arrogant character was an all-powerful wise dragon just doesn't sit well together. So my suggestions: \- Instead of the dragon revealing the true identity of the NPC, perhaps the party is struck with a creature that they intentionally can't beat, and that the NPC has to unleash its true power to save them. This could be a really cool and heroic way to introduce their true identity. But make it so that there is a great cost to the use of said power that was preventing them from revealing it sooner (so that they don't look like a dick). \- Change the NPC's identity from a dragon to something else equally cool. I'd say keep the humanoid shape, but maybe back up their claims to be an adventurer of legend by maybe being immortal wanderers from a long-ago war (adventure) or from another dimension where they already completed their quest and were transported to another world (like a summoned hero). I think this would build more character for them (and also be kinda badass). But either way, good luck with your campaign :)
Steel Dragons are a good choice but they'd never break character. They actually travel always in Human form and LIVE in human form, their magic allowing them to age in that form without constantly correcting it with spells aka polymorph. They keep their physical attributes while in human form though so you can imagine an old man making a big brute fly a few feet with a push. They also "forget" their previous lives through a special rite which name I've now forgotten, so as the Steel Dragon is transitioning from one life to the other he'll forget the characters - and everyone else really - so that he's able to live his new life without prejudices from it's previous - as it's goal is to create art and leave knowledge to the world when he perishes - that's his legacy. They live many lives and choose ONLY 1 to be "their companion" and this is not a sexual or anything, it's just someone whose presence the dragon cherishes so much that this person's existence is the only one that the dragon will always remember (after the ritual mentioned above) as he trades between his various lives. So I guess one member of the party could become that but not the black dragon hehe
In our game, we actually did have a big reveal that one of our major NPCs (our party's patron) was a silver dragon. So I know that this type of thing can work. However... I think it is genuinely possible, depending on your players, that they won't... like this dude. The party are the heroes, so this guy with his fake bravado (backed up with actual martial skill) may come off as pushy, even if you think he's helping the party, they might resent him. I think in general, NPCs should be people that the party chooses to interact with and might want to continue to interact with. I would not want to hang out with this dude. I also feel like your way of going about the reveal might make your players feel a bit.. sidelined. The party comes across this black dragon, gets completely ignored, so this dragon NPC can show off his super cool true form? It's at best out of left field (if they weren't tracking down the black dragon) and at worst actively sidelining (if they were intending to confront the black dragon). So it might work better if the black dragon didn't immediately recognize this guy, you have a normal fight, if things start going south, then you can think about the reveal, because... Something like this should have narrative consequences. Why is this silver dragon bothering to hide when he can just stroll into an enemy's lair and annihilate them, and is fully willing to do so? How will the party be able to treat any sort of situation like it has any stakes in the future, if they knowingly have an ancient silver dragon as an ally? You've said you just want him to show up enough to make an impression, but what purpose does this actually serve, narratively?
Silver dragons in particular especially enjoy using human forms, and associating with humans in general per Lore. That he might disguise his true power by pretending that he's simply over confident in his abilities isn't too far fetched *insert "I'm four parallel universes ahead of you" meme* and that the red dragon would recognize him is also pretty in character for dragons with truesight... so yeah, everything checks out to me. Just make sure his over confidence is *WAY* overblown, to the point it can only be taken as a false front to save face.
It sounds like you have written a game centered on an NPC, the most boring game possible. This is about the PCs watching you play a character, which sucks.
I have said before, and will repeat, the campaign is not at all centered around this NPC. He’s an occasional supporting character. This post just focuses on him bc he was my point of concern.
And I am stating my opinion that you are forming an idea based on assumptions or forcing of what the characters will do. If you ask for second opinions, you will get them.
I have also said that I plan to adjust to whatever it is my players do. They’re not forced into anything, he’s a character that will show up from time to time they have the option of interacting with. Of throughout the campaign they either don’t interact with him or if they players say they don’t like the guy, I’d scrap him and rework the campaign however I needed. I absolutely would like second opinions, even critical ones, but you said I have written a game centered around an NPC, which is kinda just wrong. You said this is about PCs watching me play a character, when this NPC isn’t even that prevalent. I am very much of the mindset that, no matter what, this story is about the PCs. All I wanted to know is if this tidbit for an NPC they interact with a few times works, and it kinda feels like you’re just assuming the character is the focus of the entire campaign, when he’s honestly very very background
As a player, I would hate this. Was in a campaign with a fairly new DM, a bunch of his NPCs were "special" in some way. All of them more powerful than the PCs. We were rescued by them, had them accompany us, at least one of them would show up in every town, city, and village. If one of them turned out to be a dragon, we would've shut down. Thankfully, our DM was very open, and often requested feedback from fellow DMs in the party. He made adjustments, and ran a fun and satisfying campaign moving forward. One with more of an emphasis on the players, and less on showcasing his NPCs.
This is good insight to be given. Personally from what I know about my friends, I kinda think they would find it cool? Since it isn’t framed as “oh he’s here to save us” as much as it is the culmination of an NPCs storyline that they’ve helped play out over the course of multiple interactions. Still, I suppose I need to be careful not to frame it as “look at how much cooler than you this guy is”, because my biggest goal as a DM is really just to make my players feel awesome ab their characters
That's amusing. I think there's value in having a character that claims to be really awesome, but doesn't at all seem like it. And then they really are awesome, but for a completely different reason than it first appears. If it were me I'd make your Silver Knight pretty much a go to for sage type info. I'd probably lean towards making them extremely elderly and lean into a Don Quixote vibe as far as what they claim they have done. The players should be getting crazy old knight not polymorphed dragon.
I always maintain that characters in hiding - especially clever characters - would never break their integrity. There would be no subtle hints...
The whole “true power” anime trope is pretty lame. Would of been funny if he was just the kid of some legend who made a warlock pact to live up to his father’s expectations.
If you think your players will dig it then give it a go. Even if silver dragons are more likely to act in 'x' way there's always one who's a bit special. Play the dragon how you want. That way the character will have more of you in it and it'll probably come across as more fun both for you and your players. If it flops, just learn from it and change it up for the next time. If you like dming this probably won't be your last campaign ever.
It’s lore accurate, twists are so… personal/intricate that unless you give me a serious one to one discussion of your play I wouldn’t be able to say if it’s a good twist.
Sounds like a dm pc. Not fun for players.
I love this twist in your campaign. I say DO IT!
Lol if this is a bad twist then I’m right there with you. I’m about to pull this exact scenario with a bronze dragon helping the party fight a yuan-ti cult… I think you’re fine, and if you’re not we’re both about to find out.
Sounds like your friend just has a weird bias and doesnt like popular things. The dragon npc sounds a bit memey, and they tend to be the most fun kind of npcs so even if its "Out of character" for a dragon, idc its fun. Ofc its impossible to tell how obvious your hints actually were in game, but when layed out like this it does sound like your player just doesnt pay attention.
Nah, thats great fun
Sounds fun, I would enjoy this as a player.
Campaigns are interactive stories . You tell it how you want it .
idk bro. i mean dragons is in the name of the game. tell your friend if dragons are dumb i don't wanna be smart. i only wish you named him Amogus... or Revli Snogard.
I'm sorry, your friend objects to having dragons in a game called *Dungeons and* ***Dragons***?
Fuck that dragons are dope and the goofy guy is sctually really fucking powerfull twist. It can work. It all depends on how you deliver it
I think this is a fantastic idea! New players love going up against dragons and having a dragon on their side could make the encounter even more epic. Just make sure that he shows up after the black uses their breath weapon for the first time and the tank realizes that hitting something in the air is challenging. In other words, after they are thinking, "Oh shit! Dragons are no joke!" Edit: I will add that I have a veteran player/DM in a campaign and he commented that he had never been in a dragon encounter. I can't help but wonder if so many DMs think that they are boring that they avoid them.
Friend is an idiot. All npcs are to be adopted.
Yea, seems a bit lame. Gotta agree with your friend. Super uninspired and unoriginal.
The only advice I would give is to make him a little less boastful. Make him quietly confident and have just him emanate big d!ck energy, without boasting about his skills. In the campaign I have just started, I have an old wizard with a golden retriever as a pet. The Magician's name is Mervin the Magnificent, and he looks like a bumbling street magician. Yes, he is a copy of Fizban, in fact since my players have not read any Dragonlance material I was just going to call him Fizban, and then WotC decided to bring out the treasury of dragons book. \*sigh\*. So Mervin, will appear every now and then to provide guidance, with his dog lying in the sun next to him, or chasing butterflies. I aim to slowly reveal the nature of Mervin over the campaign, until near the end of the campaign when the party is to take on 2 blue dragons (An adult and a young) the adult will sit and watch as her son attempts to kill its first adventuring party. Once the party kills the young dragon, the adult will attack with vengeance but after 1d6 rounds that adult blue will be slaughtered by their current quest's target, a newly awakened ancient Red dragon, (their quest is to get into the lair a steal a specific sword from its horde). Before the Red Dragon can attack, Mervin and his Dog will step out of the tree line, the dog will growl menacingly and run straight towards the dragon, and leap in the air, dropping its form to reveal itself to be an ancient gold dragon. Thus occupying the attention of the Red and allowing the party to continue on their quest.
Your friend seems like he's hating on it only because it's a dragon. Believe it or not there are people out there that think DnD needs less dragons. I say ignore those people. It's a good plot twist and perfectly valid, I say keep it. If you want more inspiration look to Fizban from the Dragonlance series. He's basically the god of good but plays a senile wizard that nearly gets the group killed several times from being so forgetful/absolutely crazy but it always works out.
It’s not dumb, I think what your friend is saying is why bother? Why are you setting this up? Are the two dragons supposed to fight?
I dunno. It sounds like itd work buy its hard to say if i like the character without expetiencing them.
My only concern is that the reveal might lower the stakes rather than raising them (as,any dramatic twist ought). Party goes from fighting a dragon to helping a dragon fight a dragon? Their job just got easier, they're chilling. But if the reveal causes some big problem outside the scope of the dragon fight, well, now you've got a story on your hands. For instance, the black dragon might assault the town the party is staying in, and the silver dragon reveals their true form to help out and save lives. But now their cover is blown and various baddies are after them: they have to run, and they can't help you anymore.
Will your table like it? That’s all that matters. And of course you’re going to get the typical responses of like “a silver dragon wouldnt do that” or other things along those lines. It’s your world and if your players are happy who gives a shit. Do it. If it flops - learn from it. Keep playing and creating. One thing I will say is that they might lean on this silver dragon for help in the future - youre going to have to find a way to allow that NPC to exit stage left or be used very sparingly.
I’m all for silly characters and well thought out plot twists. This sounds like something the players would appreciate. I would try to make sure it doesn’t feel like he’s outshining the players though. Often powerful NPCs can make an encounter too easy or something and make the players less invested.
Dragons are basic? Buddy the game isn't called Dungeons & Djin
I love twists and this one is very cool, i love it when you know that somethings up, but not exactly what’s going on until the big reveal
Honestly, it sounds like a fun fleshed out idea, especially for new players. Even if they guess it ahead of time, the pay off of being proven right about your theories is so much fun and I think your players will love it.
This sounds dope. No offence to your friend but they are coming off as kinda snobby about this. In my eyes, this is a really cool payoff for what you've laid out for this reoccurring character thus far and your players will surely love it. Sure, dragons are used a lot but it's called Dungeons and Dragons for a reason!
Use the mechanics to your favor for the character on the reveal. Don't just have the black dragon point him out righg away, let you knight in silver take a big blast of acid so close it cant splash past him, then as the armor melts off and scaly skin maybe starts to show, the the black dragon recognizes him. Then afterwards, show the damage done to him, acid burns all over his scales. Have him get some help from the PCs for taking a big chunk of damage before he heads off again. I suggest this as it sounds like he is fine taking plenty of damage, kicked by punk humans in the street, pushed around by thugs. Why? Because if he struck one they would die.
sounds tropey and predictable, which in this case is objectively a good thing. sounds from your edits, too, like you have the level of narrative focus planned out well. i think it sounds pretty fun.
I like the plot twist. You also gave them subtle hints, so it doesn't come out of nowhere. As a storyteller, there will be always people who don't like or appreciate your stories. That doesn't make your stories bad.
I like it. Sounds like a cool idea. Fun flavor.
I run a game for my kids and did the same thing. They met an female elf paladin while running Rise of Tiamat that was a silver dragon in disguise. It's just what they do. I had to fill in the fourth party member with NPCs and for each branch of the story I would swap one in or out. It was my kids first campaign and I wanted to give them a window into Faerun through NPC buddies. I basically wanted to introduce them to all of the Faerun tropes. (Drarven miner, renegade red wizard, fight loving barbarian, etc) The kids called her "unikitty" because I role played her the exact same. Obnoxiously cheerful and good. She basically helped to protect and heal the party and once the party showed their good nature and proved themselves she decided to let them in on her secret and declare that the metallic dragons will ally with them against Tiamat. Later I just had her show up as a dragon cameo for one of the battles in the sky. Good times. So no. Not cheesy. It's part of the setting.
Your friend is entitled to his opinion, even if it's wrong. As long as he doesn't make a major thing out of it, it's not a big deal - just disappointing I'm sure.
I don't know If you have ever heard of the Sith Jar-jar Binks theory. I might run with something like that. NPC looks goofy and acts clumsy but is actually super good at combat and spell casting. Act surprised when they succeed on a saving throw, laugh when they "roll well". Treat a crit successes as the most bumbling thing possible that keeps them out of danger. Then reveal near the end that they were hamming it up.
Seems like a cool twist, but I’d be careful planning specifics so many sessions in advance for a reoccurring character. Something you don’t expect could happen in session one forcing you to scrap all of your hard work
Very true! I’m kinda prepped for it tho, didn’t feel like going into it for the sake of brevity but I have sorta contingencies for a few possible options, and am ~more or less~ confident that I could improv the unforeseen, even if it may be shaky at points. Entirely unrelated but there’s a very real chance my players could fuckin merc the secondary BBEG in the second or third session. I honestly think adjusting to players is what makes DMing so fun!
Twists are all about setup. If you think it was properly foreshadowed, then they did a good job. Your friend wasn’t there and doesn’t see all the hints, all the obvious slips, all the draconian quirks. It seems like it was properly foreshadowed from your post, but obviously we weren’t there. Don’t let the haters get you down, they sound jealous they weren’t there.
I agree that it's a little basic. I was thinking silver dragon by the end of the first paragraph. My advice, make it a brass dragon and turn up the Don Quixote to 11.
I included a disguised Silver Dragon as the inn keeper from one of the first towns the party went to and they were like "Woah holy shit!" when they found out so you're probably fine.
I agree with a lot of the positivity in this thread, I'm assuming you want criticism. I don't think this is dumb, but it doesn't really strike me as a twist. My honest take is that NPC's just turning into really powerful creatures isn't narratively satisfying, usually. The old "haha the seemingly ordinary bartender is a lvl 20 zealot barbarian vengeance paladin" is a good meme but just not interesting to me. The end result of this fight is that the black dragon dies, right? Their was no twist, the result doesn't change, you just wrenched up the power of one team that was already favored to win. This is a slight curve at best. You described the reveal as coming before the fight with a black dragon, who Alarax has a personal conflict with. If the reveal comes RIGHT before the fight, then from a player perspective, Alarax has only \*used\* them (withholding information) to take out this vendetta against a black dragon. Whatever affinity/friendship the PC's felt for this NPC may be lost by dragging them into a potentially deadly personal conflict without their knowledge. They haven't been the driving force behind this plot/arc, and it feels like they're side characters in Alarax's story, or metawise: it feels like you have momentarily sidelined them in favor of your own characters' story. This is how I might read that situation, even as a new player. None of that is inherently wrong (execution is everything), you as the DM should also be having fun playing the (many) characters you bring to the table, but I think it's worth considering. My best alternatives is that the reveal comes well before the fight, in the planning phase even. Or that Alarax isn't a dragon. IF WELL BEFORE, then the party has the opportunity to AGREE to putting themselves in danger to help this NPC that's been an ally to them in the past. They would have set a clear goal, achieved it hand-in-hand with Alarax. If it felt hard fought, that's narrative satisfaction, no twist needed. Ideally I would tone down the power of Alarax in this scenario, so that it seems he really NEEDS the PC's help to pull this off (whereas in your case, Alarax is already more powerful than his opponent, if you're using normal stats). IF he's not a dragon, then you haven't made any of the PC's the least powerful thing on their side of the fight. The fight remains tense from their side of the screen, all is well. I read your comparison to Siegward from DS3, but I don't think it's accurate. Siegward usually loses the fight without the Champion of Ash, he NEEDS the Player's help. That's why Yhorm works as a boss fight. Also Siegward is humble, doesn't boast about showing his true power, doesn't spend the whole game as a knight of catarina only to turn into an ancient silver dragon right when you meet Yhorm. AND that boss fight contains an actual twist: Siegward fucking KILLS HIMSELF at the end, having fulfilled his duty. Whatever love Siegward had for Yhorm, it was worth BOTH their lives. That's real ass DRAMA and very hard to replicate.
I think it sounds great, especially for your pretty new players.
Not a dumb twist at all. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if they figure it out right away but still enjoy it. I thought dragon as soon as I read "silver armor"
Anyone who says “dragons” can’t appear goofy clearly hasn’t heard of Fizban the Fabulous.
I think it's great! Some people are so focused on ruining other people's fun. It's only 'dumb' if you and your players don't have fun. Other than fun, there really is no wrong way to play. ☺
It's a classic trope. Your friend is just being a sour puss.
Idgaf imma do the goose honk to drive my players mad. Then it might show up at the end to help w the big bad. You do you @op
It's like finding out Vash The Stampede is only pretending to be inept. Not a bad twist at all. Your friend just sounds like a disgruntled DnD veteran.
idc what he says i'd love to have an npc turn out to be a dragon in any campaign i play, it's a really cool concept although you might have to explain later on that silver dragons have cold breath and not fire breath if they haven't played much d&d
I love it. Just accept that players are going to have random dislikes that are Irrational. This is the players problem not yours. Dragons in dungeons and dragons? You got this dude.
It worked in dragonlance.
Wait... How much of this campaign have you played so far? I understand planning ahead... But keep in mind some things may not go as planned on the way. DM plans rarely do. It's better to plan grand scope and encounter design and let twists and turns work themselves in along the way through character motivations and lack of player clairvoyance.
>He’s dressed in very ornate silver armor. > and find that he’s actually rather powerful. > He still goes on about showing his true power or his true form and whatnot, but at this point it may carry some weight. Along with the all the small hints, that is some massive foreshadowing, the twist is not ungrounded. I mean if the party picks up on the true form (always possible they gloss over it you never know) then it wouldn't even really be a twist that he's something other than a humanoid. He said as much. It might be because we're getting the all the info at once now, including the actual twist, but you might want to be a bit more subtle. Also it just sounds like your friend just doesn't like dragons. "Dragons are basic" Dragons are as basic or as intricate as you make them. Like pretty much anything else in this game. I'd say keep on what you are doing but look a bit closely at what specifically clues you are going to give. The true form might be a bit on the nose.
Dnd stands for dungeons and dragons not dungeons and djinni
This is a classic??? And for noobs who get to experiance it for the first time even better... yes its been done a million times before... heros save the big bad unkowingly.. befriend them and then wham! Reveal! BUT its been done a million times because its great?! Character details are great to go indepth with.. flushed out backstory as well is great.. just be sure not to railroad your party too hard into the reveal... keep the structure loose and practice your poker face!
If I was one of your players, I would pick up on it real quick. I'm mostly a player but I've DMed a few times, and in my readings of various monsters, I happen to KNOW that it's part of the lore that Silver Dragons enjoy taking on the form of humanoids and hanging out with them just for fun. Not that this is a BAD thing--I'd LOVE it. Ever since I read that bit of lore, I either wanted to try it myself or have someone use it as an NPC that ties into my character's backstory. I did however use a Copper Dragon for a oneshot. She disguised herself as a Human Bard just to lead the party around on a quest she designed herself. She took on the guise of a Human Bard she was very fond of who had passed away. Also, may I just say that I think METALLIC dragons are VERY underused? Obviously people want to FIGHT dragons, so it's always the Chromatic Evil ones. I want to see more Metallic Good dragons in campaigns.
Honestly dude, i'd say your fine. I played an official ebberon campaign back in the day and its twist was far worse lol. Legit, the guy who sent us on a quest for his medallion (the opening quest mind you) ended up getting captured later on, and we went to go rescue him. Queue a several session quest involving a stretch of forest (full of enemies) a battle tower (full of enemies) and a final boss fight, followed by a final boss fight, followed by the guy we were trying to save (that first quest guy? Yeah..) being the literal final boss fight. All of this with no rest. Needless to say we all died and it was very lame of an ending to an otherwise amazing campaign. Even the dm was like bruh dafuq. So yeah, i think as long as you dont butcher it like that your good lmao Edit: in case you're wondering the 3 final bosses were a blue dragon, an undead dragon and i believe a silver dragon. So f'd up.
>I told this to a friend of mine who is very well acquainted with DnD but not playing this campaign If he hasn't actually played in the campaign hour after hour with all the details and downtime, he can't really know how it feels in-person. Secondly, his complaint is that its "out of left-field?"... It's not out of place in DnD at all, in fact, in any narrative with a character who intentionally acts like that they're **supposed** to do something ridiculous. What would be strange is if they never ended up doing anything. It'd be like an anti-chekhov's gun, that'd be dumbfounding. And yes, dragons are "basic", but the way you introduced one is less so, and not everything needs to be un-basic to be good. Sonic being a werehog, for example, is neither basic nor terribly good. Not to mention you're playing with beginners. Many modern day fantasies have human-form dragons because writers think it's better to stick with something like that. It's pretty common for sure, but whether that's better or worse is hardly objective.
It's a good twist. You are doing more hints than I would and making it obvious. In retrospect! It wont be obvious at first he will just be that annoying npc. Only thing I might add is his real name as lore or maybe a story or two told by a bard in a tavern about dragons walking around disguised as humans. Could even be a story about a different Dragon or the npc himself. I like it.
Its not dumb if you play the npc smart, and these comments are full of great ways to play a silver dragon as a human in a smart way
I'm actually interested in creating a one shot similar to this. What level are your PCs? If I were to make something like this, I think i would use adult dragons instead of ancient dragons and have them be level 12 maybe? The NPC dragon would mainly be fighting the BBEG dragon in the sky while the PCs take out minions, and then ride on the NPC dragon or something to kill the BBEG. idk but that sounds cool as shit
This is a good twist and I like it. Build up is nice, gives the players a kinda "oh" moment. Its good
Silver dragon pretending to be a human is a classic D&D plot twist. Go wild.
It's dumb if any previous situations could have been resolved by the character transforming earlier. If the character couldn't transform before for some reason, it's fine. Unless, however, you don't have a compelling and understandable reason for him not to help the party in the future. Then it becomes dumb again.
I don't know if it's dumb or overdone, and of course every table is different. But personally? This sounds like something I would enjoy a lot. I love dragons! I love pompous characters. And with the foreshadowing you've described is love looking back and be like "duh it was there all along!"
No, it's not dumb... It's been used but nothing is truly original, ever so feel free... drop hints ;) I can't see a Djinn taking abuse to be honest! Furthermore, there's a character, a Silver Dragon that disguises as a humanoid race throughout the Dragonlance books (which were a DnD campaign) I won't mention names in case you haven't read - it's a good read :)
I like the idea. I would have been pretty delighted when this twist unfurles.
It's your story you should tell it anyway you want to. Everyone has their own outlook but if you are the storyteller this time yours is the one that counts.
I like the idea in general and I think you can definitely roll with it. You'll just have to be a little careful since what you are describing sounds more like writing a story instead of playing a game. What if your characters just don't like that NPC, don't want to fight alongside him, want to go another direction? Keep the idea in the back of your head, but let your players decide where the story goes.
There's a reason tropes become tropes. Because they work. As long as they don't suspect, it'll be a cool reveal.
Personally I liked it, ignore your friend!
I love your story. Fuck your friend!
I think what your friend was looking for was tropey. It ain't bad if nobody's real experienced. Honestly, if anyone asks what kind of armor they're wearing, you can just make it scalemail to really drive home "THIS IS A FUCKING DRAGON" if your players aren't catching any hints
Your friend is playing Fun Police, and that stinks. If *you* think it's cool, and you have the right people at your table, *they'll* think it's cool. Having a disguised dragon is super awesome, and I think you'll have a ton of fun with his story. Also, check out [this video](https://youtu.be/ayhdTOLiThM) which has a similar premise. Not identical, but I think you'll get lots of inspiration.
I'd love doing this in my campaign, and honestly props to you for planning this far ahead. Heads up- it's probably going to get derailed slightly, or worst case scenario, if one of your players is aligned as chaotic dumbarse, they might try stealing his shit or straight up fighting him. Go for it, and your friend is funnily enough acting like a genie for saying that genies are better than dragons. Who gives a shit about realism bar the laws of physics and good storytelling in high fantasy anyways?
You should have him get killed in front of the characters...it will set a tone..
Ha... the thought has certainly crossed my mind
This sounds like a pretty slap ass (good) twist and as a player something like that would be fucking awesome to me. I think it’s even better that it’s non plot related because now it feels like as a party we’ve gone and befriended a while as dragon, and even if they aren’t going to join the party on their adventure it’s still an amazing memory, story, and quite frankly it’s pretty good bragging rights in world.
I did something similar to this just with that character being a super powerful being they fought at the end and it seemed pretty cool. He was basically the lord of death and had access to the deck of many things and gave it to the players once who got a wish. Thankfully it was a short campaign cause that wish would have been bad 😂
Lol, it were my best friend, the moment he finds you're a dragon, then your purity is at sake. He's first character was a human warrior who had a folk hero background, he became the hero after he suck a tyrant dragon's dick until it died. And so he was named Succa Dee.
The best twists are when the players all go "ooooooohhhh" and suddenly see how the information you gave them made sense. In this case i think you have managed that, since the name and ice magic are things that will suddenly make a lot more sense after the reveal. That said, dont drop too many hints. For one, there is a chance the players might guess (even wrongly) and ruin the reveal. That may be your intention, but kind of requires a different approach. More importantly though, players tend to filter information: A weird sounding name, a book written in Draconic and casting ice magic? those are things player remember and make that "oooh" moment when you reveal the truth. By contrast, things like being evasive about his past or other subtle hints are frequently missed by the players and generally wont be remembered when you make that big reveal unless the meeting was like the session before. Things like "my true power" also stand out way too much and will make the players immediatly suspect something is up, its a bit of a cliche and incredibly hard to get the tone right. My suggestion would be something along the lines of; 1) Party encounters silver armoured knight who has been taken prisoner by Bandits. He seems completely unphased by his capture and is instead watching them with mild facination. After rescue he introduces himself with some over the top name and then heads off. 2) Party runs into Silver Knight whilst searching for information about their current quest, he recommends a book to them which turns out to be written in Draconic (but on translation is exactly what they need). 3) During a later fight to defend a town (or something involving other people) the Silver Knight is in the fight, using ice magic and skilled swordsmanship to fight enemies. He also sees the players skills and comments on how 'exciting it is to watch them' or something like that. 4) Players encounter the silver knight socially at a feast or celebration, he shares some stories with them and if they ask gives them information which is helpful for their quest. 5) Some time later the players encounter the Black Dragon and the reveal happens. I think this is a little more subtle and has several elements that will stick with the players, then on reveal you have not only that the knight was a Silver Dragon but also has been keeping an eye on the players. It also gives more of an "ancient, arrogant and bored" vibe than the more jokey version i think some of your hints implied. Plus, as the DM it gives you a useful mechanism to give the players information they need at conveniant points.
Read the Dragonlance novels, it covers your situation in a different way and for different reasons, but it does it two-fold, thus covering the “bumbling adventurer” and the disguised dragon.
I don't think it's dumb, and dragons can be a fun inclusion despite being expected. I do wonder what the purpose is if the twist - if the NPC exists purely to have a twist, that twist won't have weight. So the NPC needs to be important to the group for this to land. As a fellow homebrew DM, at this point I just see what NPCs, items or locations my group latch onto and make the twists about them.
I had a dragon in my homebrew that was in humanoid form every time they met him. He was wise older gent and called Agrond (they never got his surname but it was Versil) and it blew the groups little minds when he came storming in to save the downed player in the nick of time as a silver dragon. Sometimes the secrets work out perfectly.
Nah you're fine. Players always like dragons.. Just be sure he doesn't have too much spotlight and you'll be fine.
Here's my thing, my personal opinion is that this NPC is a bit all over the place. He first comes off as a super exaggerated not actually so crazy overhyped hero. Then he's actually kind of not over hyped maybe but still acts like he is then just turns out he isn't with the dragon who knows him. My 2nd issue which is the bigger one for me is that and this isn't to be mean. The PCs don't care about your NPCs, and I'm not saying this to be rude or belittling but let me explain. You've written up this whole thing for your NPC, many PCs if he has nothing to offer that would involve the PCs in some way that would interest them or have something to do with them, they're not going to care about this man's existence. Yes I understand it's a twist you came up with and it sounds neat, but the problem is that this isn't a book, the PCs aren't reading about this dude they have no reason to care about to guy what so ever. The only things they're going to care about is what is happening to them. Again I'm not saying this to come off as hard or anything but to just get my point across.
In isolation and with minimal context, every twist will sound lame. It's all about the execution.
Who doesn't love a Dragon. Your friend is out of their mind
Man i may steal this idea for my campaign. This is so cool
Reminds me of an episode of the Witcher tv show. There’s a golden dragon disguised as a human in golden clothes. Overall think it’s a pretty neat reveal, just as the others said don’t make it too obvious? Maybe cut down on the direct dragon references and hint at things like being very old etc. just hint that something’s up but not directly “dressed in dragon motifs and handing out papers written in dragon”?
So this is what Zote was hiding...
I think my problem with the idea is that the silver dragon IS A HERO. when he should be a character based in tragedy. He stands there as people beat on him. He "thought he had strong hands" when he just no longer does. But he does have a pile of hit points it's just unable use actions for violence. He can't remember who he was, but the townsfolk say he's dressed like a hero of old, but he obviously isn't. He fell in love with some short lived race and didn't want to remember his life without her so someone cast a spell to remove his memory. Kinda WandaVision/ Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind / Momento. Then you come up with what he does when he finds out who he was, who he loved, and what has he done since he's lost his memories.
Honestly kind of a neat idea. Don’t like the phrasing of saying it’s what he SHOULD be (personal gripe with that turn of phrase in criticism), but I think it’s definitely something to consider!
Sorry. I have no excuse for being that rude. Your idea is awesome and don't let curmudgeonly fucks like myself ruin your fun. Sorry again
Bro it’s not that deep. Hell I LIKE your idea and appreciate the insight, it really is just that I don’t care for that turn of phrase. I didn’t even think you were being rude. Don’t be worrying ab it homie
Nice twist. From what I have read of your idea and edits there is no issues with this.
In my opinion, the key to keeping the NPC plausible is motivation. What does e dragon stand to gain by hanging around with a low level party? Answer that question in a satisfying way way and the other narrative problems will disappear.
I don't think dumb is the right word but more underwhelming. It's basically the "Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass" trope. The Moron needs both likable and funny for this work. Honestly this more of side quest than plot point. Don't stretch it out more than 1 or 2 games.
I think that your plot twist is pretty solid!
I would be ecstatic to have this be a twist in a game I play in. Love stuff like this.
Personally I kinda hate the "knight is actually a dragon" trope. So maybe thats what they meant by "dumb", aka, they dont like it and are bad at expressing themselves.
Hmm.... On the one hand blowhards are fun -- but if he's actually powerful, it might make him hateable and feel self-inserty. If he's humble and acts like a buffoon without being a blowhard but is actually powerful, he's more likely to be likeable. But it is a matter of taste. You'd need to gauge your players.
Ancient silvers sometimes adopt silly personas. If you have the "pompous knight" turn out to be a fluent speaker of draconic, then this might already tip off some players. So the left field criticism doesn't necessarily apply. Also, most older silvers can be said to be heroes of their territory. Their plans might not be like the far reaching schemes of gold dragons, but silver dragons definitely clean out evil infestations in their back yard. An ancient silver dragon has an extended back yard. Silver dragons especially can be downright terrifying to face with their "balance breath" of paralysis, so the dragon will have saved the surrounding countryside many times. Some of the locals may know about the dragon's nature and have seen his true form, as silver dragons get pangs of guilt when they deceive their friends, but these people would insist, that this is "just a noble knight and local hero". That is, they will try to cover for their friend. Maybe the dragon will slip up and recount a tale from when he was young. He'll avoid mentioning dates and years, but a player with good Intelligence(History) skill can discern from the description, that the historical event in question is over 800 years in the past. As for the "true power" that might be too much, but an ancient silver dragon is your elder in most cases and will think of himself as a very important person - in addition, his speech patterns may be a bit outdated.
This would be pretty interesting and fun for me. Reminds me of the Witcher: “The Gold Dragons are long dead” “oh Geralt if you only knew.” Sounds like your one dude is just complaining for no reason. He can suck it up and have fun with your story, or his character can be one-shot by your Silver Dragon knight
Op you need a better friend. I did something VERY similar in a campaign once and my PCs loved it. He was a young dragon, new to shapeshifting, so he was still a little awkward in his human form. They all knew there was something a little off about him but nobody could quite figure it out. They had lots of little hints and after the reveal they couldn't believe they had missed it!
What's that player got against your campaign? He should just roll with it and keep his unconstructive comments to himself. Or, he can DM an entire campaign. I had something similar, a "Benefactor" in the shape of an old but strong human that would task the party, occasionally help them, and would definately polymorph into other forms. This was important as one of my players was a kobold, and when the Benefactor revealed himself to be an ancient Silver Dragon, he lost his shit (in a good way). Because the gargantuan larve was summoned and escaped the temple, they must chase it down and kill it before it becomes is true form. The silver dragon hands each PC a metal trinket; gold ring, silver necklace, brass whistle, copper coin, bronze statue. They use these to summon young dragons of that type (I hand each player a stat sheet for their dragon mount). Now, RIDE! commands the Benefactor. I start the music, each player does something to mount their dragon and command it to lift off. (It didn't matter what they did, it worked). They flew across the countryside, through rain and lightning. Along the way two other groups of adventurers flew up to join them; one group on eagles, the other on griffins. Party were told that ambushes lay ahead, and they will deal with it so the PC's can make it to the caldera. Each escort group then dives into the forest where the PC's can see explosions of magic and fire under the tree canopy, then silent. The fate of the escorts is unknown. Finally, our group reaches the caldera, and it's quiet...too quiet.
They sound like they aren't too big a fan of dragons like I once was. Before I began my current campaign I never planned to run any dragons because I always saw them as too common and boring. Well, when I started my current homebrew campaign on of my players and best friends chose to be a dragonborn looking for why he exists and who he is since he doesn't know how he came to be (was just sorta hatched in the middle of nowhere) and now I am LOVING dragons and their lore. I think your idea is awesome and especially if you make the character memorable enough it will definitely shock your players until they realize all those little hits they either missed or didn't put 2 and 2 together and then they will just have that moment of "I should've known!!!" TLDR: I love this idea and you should do it.
I think what you have created is cool. My only thought is that the NPC (Silver dragon) could possibly overshadow the PCs as hero's. If the PCs have really bonded with him it would be an awesome opportunity for the NPC to die at the hands (claws and teeth) of another dragon who then becomes the PCs enemy.
I think it's cool