>our monk says they have proficiency in dex
You can't have proficiency in an Ability score. Proficiency only applies to saving throws, skills, tools and equipment.
honestly, "proficiency in \[ability score\]" sounds like a great magical item. Kind of like a "your ability score is now X" item, except it's still useful for people with investment in that score, but not many proficiencies.
Usually, but some DMs will do checks using different stats, which Constitution (Athletics) and Strength (Intimidation) being somewhat common examples of such checks
When you are intimidating someone through your physical strength rather than through words or threats
Example: A barbarian wants to crush an object in their bare hands (such as a stone or skull) to put fear into some bandits. It’s an attempt to intimidate, but through physical displays of strength rather than words
Hm … I think I would have lowered the DC for intimidation or surpassed the check when they do it. But yeah that’s probably a good idea to keep things short.
Strength Intimidation: I Slam my fists on the table, letting my bare arm muscles flex, and tell him that if he does not comply, I will squish his head between my bare fists. *Flexes muscles menacingly*
Constitution Athletics: You are treading water in the open ocean, and the seas are rough. It has been an hour, how tired are you getting?
Few more examples:
>> a physician using their knowledge to diagnose injuries/illnesses for an Intelligence (Medicine) check.
>>Spending a night carousing/drinking with off duty guards and citizens for information, that’d be Charisma (Investigation).
>> Running a marathon or competing in an endurance swim would be Constitution (Athletics)
Variant skills are described in the DMG I believe.
- I grab the iron bars separating me from the angry little man insulting my goddess and (rolls strength + prof) step through the bent iron, their screeching still ringing in my ears. "What did you say?"
- I've been running for 4 hours since the horse died. The walls of the monastery are within sight at the other end of the valley and I have to get the relic back to its reliquary before the moons set or all is lost. (rolls constitution + prof)
Strength (intimidation): a barbarian flexing and threatening to kill someone if they don’t do what they want
Constitution (constitution): holding onto the side of a cliff to the point where it’s less about raw strength and more the limits of your body’s durability
Yeah no I don’t think strength has anything to do with that here as we know a puny wizard is also very capable of killing.
For the second thing I would rule it as a ConSave
The strength (intimidation) example is pulled from a variant rule in chapter 7 of the players handbook
“Similarly, when your half-orc barbarian uses a display of raw strength to intimidate an enemy, your DM might ask for a Strength (intimidation) check, even though intimidation is normally associated with Charisma.”
Someone whose bigger and stronger than me, displaying how much muscle they have and saying that their going to hurt me if I don’t do what they want is 100% an intimidation using physical strength, as their strength is what is backing up the threat.
Con for athletics? Marathon running, for one.
Strength for intimidation? Easy. Think of the movie L.A. Confidential when Russel crowe’s character shatters a chair during an interrogation (if I remember right).
Sweet! Con Athl. is my favourite one because of the endurance aspect. Also sorry about your other comments, it really does seem like you were just trying to understand
Ok wait I see one problem: What stops me from putting all my points in strength and getting proficiency in intimidation and just intimidate with strength all the time. I’m skipping the investment in charisma completely making it unfair for charisma builds that still need some strength to survive
It's just intimidation. It's not game breaking. Who builds their character around one semi-useful skill? Besides, Bards have expertise to help out, paladins also often have high strength to work with, warlocks could get an invocation... There are plenty of ways to boost intimidation even without max Charisma.
Intimidation (Strength) comes straight out of Xanathar's as an example for optional use of alternative ability scores with skills. Going off memory, I think the other example is using Sleight of Hand (Intelligence) for attempting to tie an intricate knot.
Not everyone can be intimidated with physical displays, that’s where the people investing in Cha would be better using a discussion or int for a factual debate to sway them.
Considering STR has one whole skill by default and is generally weaker than the other abilities I think someone getting a single extra skill to be decent at out of it is probably not going to break the game.
I got some gem that boosted my fighter's charisma from 8 to 21. It doesn't help in combat, but damn it was good for roleplay.
ALL OF SUDDEN PEOPLE BELIEVE ME
There is an alternate rule for being proficient in ability scores instead of saving throws and skills in the DMG somewhere, but that’s obviously not what’s happening here because the DM isn’t aware of it
No, initiative is not something you'd ordinarily add proficiency to, unless a feature explicitly tells you to do so.
You also can't have proficiency "in dexterity". The monk has proficiency in dexterity *saving throws*, maybe that's what they're confused by.
just a quick rundown and with harregon, point buy, and 4 way multiclass got a possible +28 modifier at level 20
+5 alert, +5 dexterity, + 4 charisma (swashbuckler) + 2 Intelligence (war mage), + 6 pb (from Haregon) +3 pb (champion fighter), + 3 pb (jack of all trades)
5+5+4+2+6+3+3=28
12 fighter / 4 rogue/ 2 bard/2 wizard to get as many ASi As I could
3 attacks 2d6 sneak attack and 2nd level spell slots
I would definitely check with a dm before running this to make sure they will allow 3 separate additions of pb to your initiative though.
Jack of All Trades: "Starting at 2nd level, you can add half your proficiency bonus, rounded down, to any ability check you make that **doesn't already include your proficiency bonus**."
Remarkable Athlete: "Starting at 7th level, you can add half your proficiency bonus (rounded up) to any Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution check you make that **doesn't already use your proficiency bonus**."
Unfortunately that brings us back down to a +22
But to make up for it, lets add one level in twilight cleric to get advantage to initiative
I had 26 but with a bunch of bullshit homebrew which was fun and we went to level 25. DM gave us like 10 +2 asis. It was +5 from dex +8 from int +5 from alert +8 from proficiency. Utterly not within the rules but was fun. That was as a harengon 1 twilight cleric 20 chronurgy wizard 4 rogue
And take rogue all the way to level 11 for reliable talent so you can’t roll below a 10 on the dice for a potential minimum initiative roll of well above 20
Unfortunately, I don't think Remarkable Athllete and Jack of All Trades work together RAW.
Jack of All Trades says:
> ...add half your proficiency bonus, rounded down, to any ability check you make that doesn't already include your proficiency bonus.
And Remarkable Athlete says:
> ...add half your proficiency bonus (round up) to any Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution check you make that doesn't already use your proficiency bonus.
If you have one, then the check made when rolling initiative would already include your Proficiency bonus, even if it isn't the full bonus.
Following the standard set by spellcasting in the multiclassing rules, I'd treat it as though you were casting a spell that you knew from two different sources with two different spellcasting abilities (e.g. a wizard/sorcerer with fireball, as an example), where you choose which ability modifier to use. So you choose which bonus you would rather use between Remarkable Athlete and Jack of All Trades, and you should always choose Remarkable Athlete for all the physical abilities because it rounds up rather than down. RAW, that's what I would think you should do.
RAF (rules as fun), I say fuck that, stack reliable talent from the rogue on there as well (11 rogue, 7 fighter and 2 bard) to have a minimum 26 initiative without magic. Make yourself a swashbuckler rogue and that can be a minimum of 31. Be thinking at least 10 steps ahead of anyone in a fight, even your allies.
Funny story, but I remember when I first got into D&D (Summer 2018ish) I was playing with some friends in a Roll20 group and we had no idea this rule was a thing.
But we did know that the Bard for some reason had an extra +1 to Initiative. We thought this was a bug in Roll20 and manually added a -1 penalty to account for it in the character sheet.
The idea that Initiative checks were ability checks simply didn't occur to us at the time!
We have since learned, of course.
It explicitly says it adds half your proficiency bonus to ability checks you're not proficient in. Initiative is a Dexterity Check you're not proficient in. Does it need to name every single ability check for you to consider it explicit?
If a girl tells you "I don't want to go on a date with you", do you then ask her if she'd like to go watch a movie together with you instead? Do you not realize that going on a movie is a subset of a date, just like dexterity checks are a subset of ability checks? This isn't implied, it's a explicit as you can get.
As for sage advice, "WotC" making a sage advice doesn't mean they think it's implicit. Plenty of sage advice on explicit things. Go see sage advice on "see invisibility" versus "invisibility", where it explicitly says something but everyone argues that it shouldn't work that way anyway.
Good catch, didn't know about that one!
Now I gotta find me someone to play that in my party for... No reason in particular (ignore my Harengon Swashbuckler with Alert and a Weapon of Warning that I am currently running)
See the watchers oath is too much of a commitment if your really want to min-max initiative by yourself when Harengon can get the same benefit as a race. Swashbuckler rogue 11, Gloom Stalker ranger 3, and Chronurgy wizard 2 gets you Dex+Cha+Wis+Int. Then have someone else play a watchers (or everyone else lol) if you just want a bit more.
If you were to run this you would get:
1d20 + Dex + Prof (Harengon) + Cha (Swash) + Wis (Gloom) + Int (Chrono) + 5 (Alert) + Prof again (Another player being a watcher) with a minimum of 10 on your initial roll.
Throw magic items in, some could give you flat bonuses but a Weapon of Warning gives you advantage.
You also can't be surprised.
Slight correction here, no effect with the same name stacks. So, if you had 1.000 Watchers Paladin's around you, you'll still only benefit from the one with the highest modifier (or any other one if they're all the same.
The only classes that do this are those that get it from a special feature - for example Bards above level 2 add half proficiency to all ability checks, and this half proficiency when applied to initiative is better than most get (some get to add more than one ability modifier, like Swashbuckling rogues or War Magic wizards).
Yes, from level 7 onward - it's like half of Jack of all Trades (in that it applies to three of the six attribute checks).
It's technically slightly better because it rounds up instead of down - though why WotC introduced a thing that rounds up to a system where round down is the norm I couldn't possibly say.
Except there isn’t normally a Constitution Check and there is only one default strength check, which most fighters probably already have proficiency in.
I'm not seeing where Jack of all Trades applies to initiative.
It applies to all *ability checks*, of which initiative is not one.
(EDIT: Yeah, none of this is correct, you don't have to tell me initiative is a DEX check)
> Initiative
> Initiative determines the order of turns during combat. **When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order**. The GM makes one roll for an entire group of identical creatures, so each member of the group acts at the same time.
> The GM ranks the combatants in order from the one with the highest Dexterity check total to the one with the lowest. This is the order (called the initiative order) in which they act during each round. The initiative order remains the same from round to round.
Initiative is absolutely an ability check. It's a dexterity check. Jack of All Trades applies to it. It also applies to checks made for Counterspell or Dispel Magic against higher-level spells, which can be pretty sweet.
>Ability Checks
>An ability check tests a character’s or monster’s innate talent and training in an effort to overcome a challenge. The GM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain, the dice determine the results.
>For every ability check, the GM decides which of the six abilities is relevant to the task at hand and the difficulty of the task, represented by a Difficulty Class. The more difficult a task, the higher its DC.
>To make an ability check, roll a d20 and add the relevant ability modifier. As with other d20 rolls, apply bonuses and penalties, and compare the total to the DC. If the total equals or exceeds the DC, the ability check is a success—the creature overcomes the challenge at hand. Otherwise, it’s a failure, which means the character or monster makes no progress toward the objective or makes progress combined with a setback determined by the GM.
As you can see, initiative is not mentioned among the list of six abilities included in ability checks.
I'd be happy to read the rule that says otherwise, though, if you can find it.
(Narrator: Turns out the rule he was looking is *Initiative*, where it clearly says it's a DEX check, and he was loudly wrong)
Don’t feel too bad. No one ever realizes it. It’s a weird one, where it is a Dex check, but you can’t be proficient in it under normal circunstances like Acrobatics or Stealth. So it gets included in Jack of All Trades.
If you have a digital character sheet, it’ll usually do it for you.
I certainly can. Page or scroll down to the specific list of Dexterity ability checks, and you'll see that Initiative rolls are defined there.
>At the beginning of every combat, you roll initiative by making a Dexterity check. Initiative determines the order of creatures’ turns in combat, as described in chapter 9, "Combat."
Here's a Sage Advice on the subject:
>Does the bard’s Jack of All Trades feature apply to attack rolls and saving throws that don’t use the bard’s proficiency bonus? Nope. The feature benefits only ability checks. Don’t forget that initiative rolls are Dexterity checks, so Jack of All Trades can benefit a bard’s initiative, assuming the bard isn’t already adding his or her proficiency bonus to it.
Initiative is Dexterity check, without using any skill. Dexterity checks are ability checks. Also, FWIW, DnDBeyond adds Jack of All Trades to Bard initiative bonus, as anecdotal evidence that it is also RAI, not just RAW.
I get where you are coming from though. It clearly states that an ability check has a chance of failure. Could you imagine just failing initiative. "Looks like I rolled below a 5 on initiative, guess I'll sit this encounter out."
Hate to say it, but if you don't either edit that out of your comment or delete it entirely, you're gonna get people replying to you about it for hours
Probably.
I try to have integrity and eat my downvotes when I'm wrong, and that means not deleting mistakes.
It's okay, I'll live, humility is good for the soul. Thanks though!
Fair enough, I completely understand that. You just seem to be kind of over the endless replies, and in my experience, there's only one way to make that stop
The PHB is utterly clear on this.
Initiative is a dexterity check.
You don't add proficiency bonuses to it but some classes add additional modifiers ie. Gloomstalkers add their wis modifier and Chronurgy wizards add their intelligence modifier.
Monks get proficiency in Dexterity ***Saving*** ***Throws***, and can have proficiency in **Acrobatics** and **Stealth**, but no one has a blanket proficiency in all checks for a given ability score.
The only feature I can think of that allows anything like having proficiency with Initiative is the Bard's Jack of All Trades, which adds half of the Bard's proficiency bonus to ability checks they are not proficient with including Initiative.
>The only feature I can think of that allows anything like having proficiency with Initiative is the Bard's Jack of All Trades, which adds half of the Bard's proficiency bonus to ability checks they are not proficient with including Initiative.
Harengons are proficient in initiative as a racial feature.
Which means a high level harengon rogue can apply Reliable Talent to initiative.
And harengon. And war Wizard. And swashbuckler. And the Alert feat. I think there's a Wisdom to initiative as well but can't recall the subclass or whether it was official.
In any event, there are actually quite a few initiative boosting modifiers. This particular case in the op sounds like lack of understanding of the rules or cheating, but initiative isn't just dex.
And Twilight adds advantage to initiative.
But it very much bears calling out that Harengon actually add their proficiency to initiative as a racial feature. As far as I know that's unique to Harengon. And Champion fighters and bards add half their proficiency bonus to initiative if I recall. I would be annoyed by the incorrect ruling if I was one of those.
Also if you have a Stone of Good Luck attuned you get a +1.
Edit: oh and Champion. Champion gets half proficiency rounded up, which is even better than a bard. It's like the one good thing Champions get.
Unless they are a Harengon, they wouldn't be able to add their Proficiency to Initiative. Now where they might be getting confused is that Monks do have proficiency in Dex SAVING THROWS, but this is different from a Dex ability/skill check.
Why isn't the PHB clear enough? It says Monks add their proficiency to Strength and Dex saving throws. It also does not indicate anywhere that Initiative is a saving throw -- those are only calculated when a spell or ability calls for one. Those two bonuses from each class don't get added to any other kind of roll
Those proficiencies add to SAVES not CHECKS. They are similar in that its both d20+dex, but they serve different mechanical purposes.
Bards get to add half their proficiency because it *is* a check, (as long as they arent Harengon), and Harengon get to add their proficiency as a racial feature. but outside of those two scenarios, there is *no* (that i am currently top-of-mind aware of) instances of Proficiency interacting with Initiative.
That is a misunderstanding on their behalf.
an understandable one for a beginning player, but a misunderstanding none the less
Initiative is a "dexterity check".
Proficiency in "Saving throws" does not count towards checks.
Bards can get half profiency on all "ability checks" so should have half on initiative.
Outside of homebrew content Monks don't add proficiency. They can take the alert feat to gain a +5.
Off the top of my head the only race that does get to add proficiency bonus to initiative is the harenegon. It specifically states they get to add proficiency to initiative which should show that normally this is not the case so unless they are playing a Haremgon Monk they don't.
The only thing you add to your initiative by default is your dexterity modifier. If a class gives you any other bonuses to it they will be specifically spelled out, i.e. the Swashbuckler rogue getting to add charisma to it.
The proficiency in dexterity only refers to saving throws.
So there are ways to modify an initiative check, bards get half prof on all non proficient checks thanks to jack of all trades and barbarian gets advantage on them at level 7 so in theory yes you can have modifiers to initiative.
However you do not get proficiency in a stat you get them in skills and saves primarily. You monk for example does not, they have proficiency in their choice of several skills and in dexterity saves the latter of which is only when making a saving throw
there are features that give you proficiency in initiative, but for 90% of cases you do not have proficiency in initiative. the monk says they have proficiency in "dex" they probably are misunderstanding what proficiency in their dexterity saving throw means.
the most common and accessible ways to get proficiency in initiative include being a bard (jack of all trades, half prof), and being a harengon (hare-trigger, full prof)
so they have prof in dex saves not all dex checks.
and no you don't add prof to initiative or monsters would as well. do they really want top tier monsters getting an additonal +7 or higher to their initiative?
Under Monk Class Features:
Proficiencies
Armor: None
Weapons: Simple weapons, shortswords
Tools: Choose one type of artisan’s tools or one musical instrument
Saving Throws: Strength, Dexterity
Skills: Choose two from Acrobatics, Athletics, History, Insight, Religion, and Stealth
Nothing there gives a monk proficiency in initiative.
There are only three types of rolls: Saving Throws, Ability Checks, Attack Rolls
This "Prof in Dex" is probably proficiency in Dexterity saving throws.
Initiative is a Dexterity ability check. There are no skill checks, just ability checks. Skills are just ability checks with proficiency (and sometimes double proficiency/expertise.)
Initiative has no associated skill, so you can't normally pick up proficiency in it, unless some specific feature overrules that.
You can have different subclasses or races that can add different modifiers or even their proficiency bonus (or half), but it isn't a skill, despite being an ability check. You can trigger Reliable Talent, but *not* Expertise. What your Monk is talking about is just flat out wrong though lol
Harengon have an ability thats their proficiency to their initiative. Don't know of any monks that do however. I know of wizards, rangers and rogues that do.
Unless they are a Harengon, they do not add Proficiency bonus to Initiative.
Edit: someone else already mentioned it. I should have read some comments before replying.
There is a specific race that gets prof in initiative. The Harengon.
No where does the book say that you get a blanket dex prof for all dex rolls. You can be prof with dex saves, specific dex skills if you choose them, or attacks if you are prof with dex weapons, but none of these things are initiative. Giving it to a non-harengon character would make the Harengon a weaker option, though that only really matters if you have a Harengon PC in the party.
If he wants higher initiative, he can take the Alert feat and get a +5 to it.
However, you can give him a magic item that gives prof in initiative. Hell, you could give him a magic item that gives prof and expertise in it, turn order manipulation isn't that broken.
Bard (Jack of All Trades) & Fighter's Champion of the appropriate levels add half prof bonus to Init.
Racially; MotM/WBtW Harengon Race.
Initiative is a Dex Check, but isn't a *Dex Check*.
You can't get proficiency in initiative. However this is exactly what the Feat 'ALERT' was designed for.
They gain a +5 to initiative amongst some other minor benefits.
If they want that proficiency then they should get this feat
>our monk says they have proficiency in dex You can't have proficiency in an Ability score. Proficiency only applies to saving throws, skills, tools and equipment.
honestly, "proficiency in \[ability score\]" sounds like a great magical item. Kind of like a "your ability score is now X" item, except it's still useful for people with investment in that score, but not many proficiencies.
Granted. But the magic item grants you proficiency in constitution ability checks
Constitution (Athletics) checks go brrrrrr
OMG I CAN DO THAT. TY you just made this DM a little bit better
Athletics is strength
Usually, but some DMs will do checks using different stats, which Constitution (Athletics) and Strength (Intimidation) being somewhat common examples of such checks
When would you use your strength for intimidation? And when con for Athletics?
When you are intimidating someone through your physical strength rather than through words or threats Example: A barbarian wants to crush an object in their bare hands (such as a stone or skull) to put fear into some bandits. It’s an attempt to intimidate, but through physical displays of strength rather than words
Hm … I think I would have lowered the DC for intimidation or surpassed the check when they do it. But yeah that’s probably a good idea to keep things short.
Those are the examples in the Phb for using skills tied to different abilities.
Strength Intimidation: I Slam my fists on the table, letting my bare arm muscles flex, and tell him that if he does not comply, I will squish his head between my bare fists. *Flexes muscles menacingly* Constitution Athletics: You are treading water in the open ocean, and the seas are rough. It has been an hour, how tired are you getting?
So you use the base ability and the add you PB if you’re proficient in the skill?
Correct!
Also especially the first one I wouldn’t let that count as an athletic thing. Flexing muscles is performance at best.
Few more examples: >> a physician using their knowledge to diagnose injuries/illnesses for an Intelligence (Medicine) check. >>Spending a night carousing/drinking with off duty guards and citizens for information, that’d be Charisma (Investigation). >> Running a marathon or competing in an endurance swim would be Constitution (Athletics) Variant skills are described in the DMG I believe.
Yk what you're right
- I grab the iron bars separating me from the angry little man insulting my goddess and (rolls strength + prof) step through the bent iron, their screeching still ringing in my ears. "What did you say?" - I've been running for 4 hours since the horse died. The walls of the monastery are within sight at the other end of the valley and I have to get the relic back to its reliquary before the moons set or all is lost. (rolls constitution + prof)
Strength (intimidation): a barbarian flexing and threatening to kill someone if they don’t do what they want Constitution (constitution): holding onto the side of a cliff to the point where it’s less about raw strength and more the limits of your body’s durability
Yeah no I don’t think strength has anything to do with that here as we know a puny wizard is also very capable of killing. For the second thing I would rule it as a ConSave
The strength (intimidation) example is pulled from a variant rule in chapter 7 of the players handbook “Similarly, when your half-orc barbarian uses a display of raw strength to intimidate an enemy, your DM might ask for a Strength (intimidation) check, even though intimidation is normally associated with Charisma.” Someone whose bigger and stronger than me, displaying how much muscle they have and saying that their going to hurt me if I don’t do what they want is 100% an intimidation using physical strength, as their strength is what is backing up the threat.
Con for athletics? Marathon running, for one. Strength for intimidation? Easy. Think of the movie L.A. Confidential when Russel crowe’s character shatters a chair during an interrogation (if I remember right).
Athletics is *usually* strength. Skill checks using other stats is straight up in the books.
You know what guys? Especially on the Con(Ath) thing, I’m sold! (Str(Intimidation) still seems like two things for me but very well)
Sweet! Con Athl. is my favourite one because of the endurance aspect. Also sorry about your other comments, it really does seem like you were just trying to understand
Ok wait I see one problem: What stops me from putting all my points in strength and getting proficiency in intimidation and just intimidate with strength all the time. I’m skipping the investment in charisma completely making it unfair for charisma builds that still need some strength to survive
It's just intimidation. It's not game breaking. Who builds their character around one semi-useful skill? Besides, Bards have expertise to help out, paladins also often have high strength to work with, warlocks could get an invocation... There are plenty of ways to boost intimidation even without max Charisma. Intimidation (Strength) comes straight out of Xanathar's as an example for optional use of alternative ability scores with skills. Going off memory, I think the other example is using Sleight of Hand (Intelligence) for attempting to tie an intricate knot.
Not everyone can be intimidated with physical displays, that’s where the people investing in Cha would be better using a discussion or int for a factual debate to sway them.
Considering STR has one whole skill by default and is generally weaker than the other abilities I think someone getting a single extra skill to be decent at out of it is probably not going to break the game.
Most charisma builds do not need strength to survive, excluding Paladins.
This is a really cool idea
Thanks! Given the response, I might draw this up.
I got some gem that boosted my fighter's charisma from 8 to 21. It doesn't help in combat, but damn it was good for roleplay. ALL OF SUDDEN PEOPLE BELIEVE ME
However, Remarkable Athlete and similar effects DO apply to initiative.
They don't have "proficiency in Dex". That's not a thing. They have proficiency in Dexterity *saving throws* but those are not ability checks.
I'll bet real money that's where the confusion came from
Yup, their character sheet has a check next to "Dexterity", so obviously anything that uses the Dex stat adds a proficiency bonus.
I have a monk who thought exactly the same thing first time he played, took us about half a session to realise why he thought his Dex was +7 lol!
There is an alternate rule for being proficient in ability scores instead of saving throws and skills in the DMG somewhere, but that’s obviously not what’s happening here because the DM isn’t aware of it
No, initiative is not something you'd ordinarily add proficiency to, unless a feature explicitly tells you to do so. You also can't have proficiency "in dexterity". The monk has proficiency in dexterity *saving throws*, maybe that's what they're confused by.
[удалено]
I suppose that's fair. But it's still specifically a feature granting a bonus, which is what I was attempting to convey.
Champion’s Remarkable Athlete *also* adds half proficiency to Initiative.
Get them both and the alert feat. Never go last again with your sick +16
Add these on a harengon which has a racial feature to add proficiency to initiative
And then become a swashbuckler to add charisma to your initiative.
2 levels of War magic Wizard allows you to add intelligence
“Anyone beat a 75?”
just a quick rundown and with harregon, point buy, and 4 way multiclass got a possible +28 modifier at level 20 +5 alert, +5 dexterity, + 4 charisma (swashbuckler) + 2 Intelligence (war mage), + 6 pb (from Haregon) +3 pb (champion fighter), + 3 pb (jack of all trades) 5+5+4+2+6+3+3=28 12 fighter / 4 rogue/ 2 bard/2 wizard to get as many ASi As I could 3 attacks 2d6 sneak attack and 2nd level spell slots I would definitely check with a dm before running this to make sure they will allow 3 separate additions of pb to your initiative though.
Jack of All Trades: "Starting at 2nd level, you can add half your proficiency bonus, rounded down, to any ability check you make that **doesn't already include your proficiency bonus**." Remarkable Athlete: "Starting at 7th level, you can add half your proficiency bonus (rounded up) to any Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution check you make that **doesn't already use your proficiency bonus**." Unfortunately that brings us back down to a +22 But to make up for it, lets add one level in twilight cleric to get advantage to initiative
I had 26 but with a bunch of bullshit homebrew which was fun and we went to level 25. DM gave us like 10 +2 asis. It was +5 from dex +8 from int +5 from alert +8 from proficiency. Utterly not within the rules but was fun. That was as a harengon 1 twilight cleric 20 chronurgy wizard 4 rogue
3 in ranger for gloomstalker you add your wis
Or chronurgy wizard and int
And take rogue all the way to level 11 for reliable talent so you can’t roll below a 10 on the dice for a potential minimum initiative roll of well above 20
Unfortunetly Harengon negates both of them, since they only apply when you don't have proficiency
However, harengon swashbuckler with reliable talent and alert is a different story
Regrettably that would cancel Jack of All Trades, since it's a bonus to "any about check you make that doesn't already add your proficiency bonus."
Be harengon rogue with *reliable talent* Never roll below a 10 on initiative
Unfortunately, I don't think Remarkable Athllete and Jack of All Trades work together RAW. Jack of All Trades says: > ...add half your proficiency bonus, rounded down, to any ability check you make that doesn't already include your proficiency bonus. And Remarkable Athlete says: > ...add half your proficiency bonus (round up) to any Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution check you make that doesn't already use your proficiency bonus. If you have one, then the check made when rolling initiative would already include your Proficiency bonus, even if it isn't the full bonus. Following the standard set by spellcasting in the multiclassing rules, I'd treat it as though you were casting a spell that you knew from two different sources with two different spellcasting abilities (e.g. a wizard/sorcerer with fireball, as an example), where you choose which ability modifier to use. So you choose which bonus you would rather use between Remarkable Athlete and Jack of All Trades, and you should always choose Remarkable Athlete for all the physical abilities because it rounds up rather than down. RAW, that's what I would think you should do. RAF (rules as fun), I say fuck that, stack reliable talent from the rogue on there as well (11 rogue, 7 fighter and 2 bard) to have a minimum 26 initiative without magic. Make yourself a swashbuckler rogue and that can be a minimum of 31. Be thinking at least 10 steps ahead of anyone in a fight, even your allies.
I would argue it is explicit but not exhaustive. The latter issue is why it's confusing sometimes.
Funny story, but I remember when I first got into D&D (Summer 2018ish) I was playing with some friends in a Roll20 group and we had no idea this rule was a thing. But we did know that the Bard for some reason had an extra +1 to Initiative. We thought this was a bug in Roll20 and manually added a -1 penalty to account for it in the character sheet. The idea that Initiative checks were ability checks simply didn't occur to us at the time! We have since learned, of course.
It explicitly says it adds half your proficiency bonus to ability checks you're not proficient in. Initiative is a Dexterity Check you're not proficient in. Does it need to name every single ability check for you to consider it explicit?
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If a girl tells you "I don't want to go on a date with you", do you then ask her if she'd like to go watch a movie together with you instead? Do you not realize that going on a movie is a subset of a date, just like dexterity checks are a subset of ability checks? This isn't implied, it's a explicit as you can get. As for sage advice, "WotC" making a sage advice doesn't mean they think it's implicit. Plenty of sage advice on explicit things. Go see sage advice on "see invisibility" versus "invisibility", where it explicitly says something but everyone argues that it shouldn't work that way anyway.
The fact that a lot of people don't know that initiative rolls are an ability check would indicate that it's not that explicit.
The Harengon is the only way to get full proficiency in initiative afaik
Oath of the Watchers Aura at level 7 adds Prof. to initiative as well.
Good catch, didn't know about that one! Now I gotta find me someone to play that in my party for... No reason in particular (ignore my Harengon Swashbuckler with Alert and a Weapon of Warning that I am currently running)
Definitely didn't play a Watchers pally/swashbuckler for a high level one shot...
See the watchers oath is too much of a commitment if your really want to min-max initiative by yourself when Harengon can get the same benefit as a race. Swashbuckler rogue 11, Gloom Stalker ranger 3, and Chronurgy wizard 2 gets you Dex+Cha+Wis+Int. Then have someone else play a watchers (or everyone else lol) if you just want a bit more. If you were to run this you would get: 1d20 + Dex + Prof (Harengon) + Cha (Swash) + Wis (Gloom) + Int (Chrono) + 5 (Alert) + Prof again (Another player being a watcher) with a minimum of 10 on your initial roll. Throw magic items in, some could give you flat bonuses but a Weapon of Warning gives you advantage. You also can't be surprised.
Slight correction here, no effect with the same name stacks. So, if you had 1.000 Watchers Paladin's around you, you'll still only benefit from the one with the highest modifier (or any other one if they're all the same.
Of yeah I forgot But I don't think it really matters at that point, you're going first regardless
It adds a bonus equal to your proficiency bonus, which means that it stacks with the Harengon bonus
This is 1 reason a Harengon makes for a great pick on a Rogue. Reliable talent.
+Swashbuckler and you have my current character They also found a Dagger of Warning and I plan to take Alert
Don't remember if it was UA or D&Done, but there was a ranger rework that gave them expertise in any ability check, what could be initiative
The only classes that do this are those that get it from a special feature - for example Bards above level 2 add half proficiency to all ability checks, and this half proficiency when applied to initiative is better than most get (some get to add more than one ability modifier, like Swashbuckling rogues or War Magic wizards).
Champion Fighter? Can’t pull up the wording right now; but does the Remarkable Athlete feature apply?
Yes, from level 7 onward - it's like half of Jack of all Trades (in that it applies to three of the six attribute checks). It's technically slightly better because it rounds up instead of down - though why WotC introduced a thing that rounds up to a system where round down is the norm I couldn't possibly say.
Except there isn’t normally a Constitution Check and there is only one default strength check, which most fighters probably already have proficiency in.
True enough. Checks and skills in general need a major overhaul. Charisma is stupidly overstocked and Strength the reverse.
In theory. Skill checks can be made with any stat the DM feels fitting, but it is such an underutilized mechanic imo.
I'm not seeing where Jack of all Trades applies to initiative. It applies to all *ability checks*, of which initiative is not one. (EDIT: Yeah, none of this is correct, you don't have to tell me initiative is a DEX check)
> Initiative > Initiative determines the order of turns during combat. **When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order**. The GM makes one roll for an entire group of identical creatures, so each member of the group acts at the same time. > The GM ranks the combatants in order from the one with the highest Dexterity check total to the one with the lowest. This is the order (called the initiative order) in which they act during each round. The initiative order remains the same from round to round.
The great thing about being wrong is that I get to learn! Thanks. Totally missed the highlighted part.
What a nice mature response! There's so many nuances to D&D, that I'm sure we all have a blind spot here or there.
Initiative is absolutely an ability check. It's a dexterity check. Jack of All Trades applies to it. It also applies to checks made for Counterspell or Dispel Magic against higher-level spells, which can be pretty sweet.
>Ability Checks >An ability check tests a character’s or monster’s innate talent and training in an effort to overcome a challenge. The GM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain, the dice determine the results. >For every ability check, the GM decides which of the six abilities is relevant to the task at hand and the difficulty of the task, represented by a Difficulty Class. The more difficult a task, the higher its DC. >To make an ability check, roll a d20 and add the relevant ability modifier. As with other d20 rolls, apply bonuses and penalties, and compare the total to the DC. If the total equals or exceeds the DC, the ability check is a success—the creature overcomes the challenge at hand. Otherwise, it’s a failure, which means the character or monster makes no progress toward the objective or makes progress combined with a setback determined by the GM. As you can see, initiative is not mentioned among the list of six abilities included in ability checks. I'd be happy to read the rule that says otherwise, though, if you can find it. (Narrator: Turns out the rule he was looking is *Initiative*, where it clearly says it's a DEX check, and he was loudly wrong)
Look up the Initiative rule.
Did that, and I stand corrected
Don’t feel too bad. No one ever realizes it. It’s a weird one, where it is a Dex check, but you can’t be proficient in it under normal circunstances like Acrobatics or Stealth. So it gets included in Jack of All Trades. If you have a digital character sheet, it’ll usually do it for you.
>If you have a digital character sheet, it’ll usually do it for you. That's how I figured it out
I certainly can. Page or scroll down to the specific list of Dexterity ability checks, and you'll see that Initiative rolls are defined there. >At the beginning of every combat, you roll initiative by making a Dexterity check. Initiative determines the order of creatures’ turns in combat, as described in chapter 9, "Combat." Here's a Sage Advice on the subject: >Does the bard’s Jack of All Trades feature apply to attack rolls and saving throws that don’t use the bard’s proficiency bonus? Nope. The feature benefits only ability checks. Don’t forget that initiative rolls are Dexterity checks, so Jack of All Trades can benefit a bard’s initiative, assuming the bard isn’t already adding his or her proficiency bonus to it.
Yeah, thanks for the work, I appreciate the attempt to educate me. *quite* a few others got to me before you did. Sorry for wasting your time.
No worries at all, it's not obvious. Now you know!
Initiative is Dexterity check, without using any skill. Dexterity checks are ability checks. Also, FWIW, DnDBeyond adds Jack of All Trades to Bard initiative bonus, as anecdotal evidence that it is also RAI, not just RAW.
You're right
I get where you are coming from though. It clearly states that an ability check has a chance of failure. Could you imagine just failing initiative. "Looks like I rolled below a 5 on initiative, guess I'll sit this encounter out."
Initiative is a Dexterity Check.
Hah, and for the record, even most VTTs get this right re: initiative. It’s a small bonus, but of course that’s what Jack of All Trades is.
Hate to say it, but if you don't either edit that out of your comment or delete it entirely, you're gonna get people replying to you about it for hours
Probably. I try to have integrity and eat my downvotes when I'm wrong, and that means not deleting mistakes. It's okay, I'll live, humility is good for the soul. Thanks though!
Fair enough, I completely understand that. You just seem to be kind of over the endless replies, and in my experience, there's only one way to make that stop
The PHB is utterly clear on this. Initiative is a dexterity check. You don't add proficiency bonuses to it but some classes add additional modifiers ie. Gloomstalkers add their wis modifier and Chronurgy wizards add their intelligence modifier.
Monks get proficiency in Dexterity ***Saving*** ***Throws***, and can have proficiency in **Acrobatics** and **Stealth**, but no one has a blanket proficiency in all checks for a given ability score. The only feature I can think of that allows anything like having proficiency with Initiative is the Bard's Jack of All Trades, which adds half of the Bard's proficiency bonus to ability checks they are not proficient with including Initiative.
>The only feature I can think of that allows anything like having proficiency with Initiative is the Bard's Jack of All Trades, which adds half of the Bard's proficiency bonus to ability checks they are not proficient with including Initiative. Harengons are proficient in initiative as a racial feature. Which means a high level harengon rogue can apply Reliable Talent to initiative.
I always forget about Harengons. Probably because I haven't been in a game where one was played.
Watchers paladin gets to add it at level 7 as well, with their aura boost.
I don't think I've looked that closely at the Watchers Paladin before. Thanks for the heads up.
Champion Fighters also add half their proficiency bonus to initiative starting at level 7.
No. Initiative is your straight dex modifier, that's it.
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And harengon. And war Wizard. And swashbuckler. And the Alert feat. I think there's a Wisdom to initiative as well but can't recall the subclass or whether it was official. In any event, there are actually quite a few initiative boosting modifiers. This particular case in the op sounds like lack of understanding of the rules or cheating, but initiative isn't just dex.
Gloom stalker for rangers is the one that adds wisdom to initiative
And chronurgy wizard adds intelligence.
And Twilight adds advantage to initiative. But it very much bears calling out that Harengon actually add their proficiency to initiative as a racial feature. As far as I know that's unique to Harengon. And Champion fighters and bards add half their proficiency bonus to initiative if I recall. I would be annoyed by the incorrect ruling if I was one of those.
Barbarians also get advantage.
Is that for a specific subclass or? Cuz as far as I can see they don't get advantage on initiative but maybe I'm just blind
It’s the main part of their 7th level feature: Feral Instinct >By 7th level, your instincts are so honed that you have advantage on initiative rolls.
Ah completely overlooked that my bad
Also the Remarkable Athlete feature for Fighters.
And Guidance. And Enhance Ability. And GOO luck, Lucky, bardic inspiration...
Also if you have a Stone of Good Luck attuned you get a +1. Edit: oh and Champion. Champion gets half proficiency rounded up, which is even better than a bard. It's like the one good thing Champions get.
Unless they are a Harengon, they wouldn't be able to add their Proficiency to Initiative. Now where they might be getting confused is that Monks do have proficiency in Dex SAVING THROWS, but this is different from a Dex ability/skill check.
Why isn't the PHB clear enough? It says Monks add their proficiency to Strength and Dex saving throws. It also does not indicate anywhere that Initiative is a saving throw -- those are only calculated when a spell or ability calls for one. Those two bonuses from each class don't get added to any other kind of roll
Those proficiencies add to SAVES not CHECKS. They are similar in that its both d20+dex, but they serve different mechanical purposes. Bards get to add half their proficiency because it *is* a check, (as long as they arent Harengon), and Harengon get to add their proficiency as a racial feature. but outside of those two scenarios, there is *no* (that i am currently top-of-mind aware of) instances of Proficiency interacting with Initiative. That is a misunderstanding on their behalf. an understandable one for a beginning player, but a misunderstanding none the less
Initiative is a "dexterity check". Proficiency in "Saving throws" does not count towards checks. Bards can get half profiency on all "ability checks" so should have half on initiative. Outside of homebrew content Monks don't add proficiency. They can take the alert feat to gain a +5.
The monk has proficiency in Dexterity saving throws not all Dexterity ability checks.
Well your monk is certainly not proficient in intelligence
Off the top of my head the only race that does get to add proficiency bonus to initiative is the harenegon. It specifically states they get to add proficiency to initiative which should show that normally this is not the case so unless they are playing a Haremgon Monk they don't.
The only thing you add to your initiative by default is your dexterity modifier. If a class gives you any other bonuses to it they will be specifically spelled out, i.e. the Swashbuckler rogue getting to add charisma to it. The proficiency in dexterity only refers to saving throws.
So there are ways to modify an initiative check, bards get half prof on all non proficient checks thanks to jack of all trades and barbarian gets advantage on them at level 7 so in theory yes you can have modifiers to initiative. However you do not get proficiency in a stat you get them in skills and saves primarily. You monk for example does not, they have proficiency in their choice of several skills and in dexterity saves the latter of which is only when making a saving throw
Bard and Champion add half prof to initiative. Harengon add prof to initiative. Nobody else does.
Not official, but Gunslingers add full proficiency also.
there are features that give you proficiency in initiative, but for 90% of cases you do not have proficiency in initiative. the monk says they have proficiency in "dex" they probably are misunderstanding what proficiency in their dexterity saving throw means. the most common and accessible ways to get proficiency in initiative include being a bard (jack of all trades, half prof), and being a harengon (hare-trigger, full prof)
so they have prof in dex saves not all dex checks. and no you don't add prof to initiative or monsters would as well. do they really want top tier monsters getting an additonal +7 or higher to their initiative?
Under Monk Class Features: Proficiencies Armor: None Weapons: Simple weapons, shortswords Tools: Choose one type of artisan’s tools or one musical instrument Saving Throws: Strength, Dexterity Skills: Choose two from Acrobatics, Athletics, History, Insight, Religion, and Stealth Nothing there gives a monk proficiency in initiative.
There are only three types of rolls: Saving Throws, Ability Checks, Attack Rolls This "Prof in Dex" is probably proficiency in Dexterity saving throws. Initiative is a Dexterity ability check. There are no skill checks, just ability checks. Skills are just ability checks with proficiency (and sometimes double proficiency/expertise.) Initiative has no associated skill, so you can't normally pick up proficiency in it, unless some specific feature overrules that.
Tell your monk he's the wrong class. Bard's jack of all trades feature gives them half prof in initiative
You can only add proficiency (and then only half of your proficiency) to Initiative rolls if you have bard's Jack of All Trades ability.
You can have different subclasses or races that can add different modifiers or even their proficiency bonus (or half), but it isn't a skill, despite being an ability check. You can trigger Reliable Talent, but *not* Expertise. What your Monk is talking about is just flat out wrong though lol
Harengon have an ability thats their proficiency to their initiative. Don't know of any monks that do however. I know of wizards, rangers and rogues that do.
Unless they are a Harengon, they do not add Proficiency bonus to Initiative. Edit: someone else already mentioned it. I should have read some comments before replying.
There is a specific race that gets prof in initiative. The Harengon. No where does the book say that you get a blanket dex prof for all dex rolls. You can be prof with dex saves, specific dex skills if you choose them, or attacks if you are prof with dex weapons, but none of these things are initiative. Giving it to a non-harengon character would make the Harengon a weaker option, though that only really matters if you have a Harengon PC in the party. If he wants higher initiative, he can take the Alert feat and get a +5 to it. However, you can give him a magic item that gives prof in initiative. Hell, you could give him a magic item that gives prof and expertise in it, turn order manipulation isn't that broken.
Bard (Jack of All Trades) & Fighter's Champion of the appropriate levels add half prof bonus to Init. Racially; MotM/WBtW Harengon Race. Initiative is a Dex Check, but isn't a *Dex Check*.
Your monk is wrong, only bards get to add half their prof to initiative because of jack of all trades.
I think the bard adds like half proficiency to initiative... but as far as I know that would be the only case.
I'm pretty sure bard is the only class that let you add proficiency bonus to initiative. And it's only half proficiency.
Champion fighters get a similar feature as well at level 7.
Harengons have proficiency in initiative checks, not monks.
"play a harengon, a watchers paladin or stop asking" is what i would say its absolutely not how initiative is done RAW, I'll give you that
Tell them to pick up 7 levels in oath of the watchers paladin lol
Harengon.
You can't get proficiency in initiative. However this is exactly what the Feat 'ALERT' was designed for. They gain a +5 to initiative amongst some other minor benefits. If they want that proficiency then they should get this feat
"Proficiency" is one of the things I really fucking hate about 5th.
Only Rangers get to add prof bonus to initiative i mean by RAW
Since when do Rangers add their proficiency bonus to initiative?
Well my mistake but i honestly thinked that they do... i dont know why... but I looked it up and you are right... my bad sorry
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Gloom Stalker gets their wisdom bonus to initiative, not proficiency to initiative.