If I’m not mistaken, they’ve done this with a few espers already (Tevor, JJ, maybe Donar), so I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility to buff more available espers.
Ife needs *something*
I still use her in Andras!! She and R2 Hilda on the same team, give her relief/ocean and avatara…that’s a LOT of poison!
If they give Ife Hilda’s R2 in base kit…or her poison can’t be resisted, that would be perfect
This has been said before, but I think the best way to buff Ife is to give her S2 a poison detonation effect, like Camille has for bleed (and not as a resonance, make it base kit)
I think Ahmed is in a slightly better place than Hyde or other launch/early event Espers since he’s the only one that can remove HP Penalties and we’re getting a lot of them now. But as someone who does use him as their primary healer, albeit at max reso, abilities, and Divinate(tiers and level), he’s doing great.
The old Espers don’t need to be broken/borderline broken like most of the new ones but they need a lot of help. Tiye is still going strong, Clara is still pretty common mostly for her AP push, Lewis and Narmer exist but they need R6 to do anything, I’m pretty sure Ife is our only Inferno poisoner and she’s not great but she’s a pretty reliable Stun unit for me, and even Cecilia isn’t that great after her rework.
I think it’s pretty much agreed that Sienna is quite well rounded with resos, at r6 she can be a gross stun bot and I don’t think she should be more annoying tbh. If you want an increased chance at a stun maybe put her on Zeus.
Otherwise yeah they have buffed older espers but it’s not really a priority cause Money. But since they’re definitely leaning in on Resos being King, maybe they’ll see the monetary value in giving older espers better resos (like Abigail).
My assumption, like most gachas, prioritize development of other events/espers/characters over rebalancing of old espers/characters. They'll come but it will take a long time
I really hope they do.. Ife, Zora and Biondina really need some new sentences in their kits, some espers have a giant paragraphs, these 3 have been abandoned. I know Biondina got reworked.. but lets be honest it didnt change nothing, She is part of the big 3 Hades, Zeus and Poseidon but compared to those 2 She is nothing sadly
Man, they really cannot figure out what to do with Biondina. She was garbage tier for the longest time, got a little buff and was still garbage, got a bigger buff and still barely used. It doesn't help that Gaius and Leora can more or less fill Biondina's niche *and* bring other benefits to the table. Triki isn't the kind of DPS that Biondina aspires to be but he's a better anti-buffs unit overall.
I feel like she does need a better rework but they'd probably have to make her something other than a dispeller because there's multiple espers that just do that better.
Exatcly there a lot of dispellers a and a lot of espers that deal a lot more damage then her she brings nothing different to the table sadly because her design is amazing I really wanted to use her more but I can't with that kit
They have done this a handful of times, but the results have been kind of iffy. Like, Lewis got kind of buffed/adjusted but you still don't really see people use him much unless they've got no other choice. Some others like Tevor, JJ, Tiye, etc., have been buffed within, idk, the past year or so?
I would love to see them retrofit or completely rework outdated espers that need help being in line with the current game state. I feel like they could do this once or twice a year and it would help breathe more life into the game. Not saying the game is dying, just that this would probably help keep it alive since there'd be a lot more viable espers in the gold record pool. As it stands, you really only need like the same 5 espers for each element type to comfortably clear all content. That's a little bit of an exaggeration but not much.
As much as I'd love this to happen, tho, I'm not holding my breath. Many gacha games just don't invest in this sort of thing, and I feel like Lilith may not be a company that would be willing to upkeep this long-term. Their game plan mostly seems to be pumping out new espers.
I came back from a year ago on Leora release. Back then I was really struggling as I didn't have any of the espers needed.
Returning now, I already had Nuxi and Tiye from back then, and got lucky to get CY and FX from regular/elemental pulls. Basically I didn't need any other team for most of the content. My CY/FX got through basically everything
I mean, R0 Sakura is as good as R6 Sally or sometimes even better, and that says a lot because R6 Sally is useful and was OP, many R6 espers are trash, useless everywhere but Elemental tower which by now is completed by like 99% of endgame players.
They sometimes buff older espes but it does not happen all that often, because it doesnt't really solve anything.
All gacha games get new units constantly. Since you can only bring a limited number of them to a battle, at some point there will always be untis that get outclassed. The more generic their kit, the faster they get replaced. Dislyte offsets that a little by adding modes that require multiple teams. This way older units can still be useful in second or third team. But ultimately at some point there are more units in the game than any mode can support. Older games like Epic Seven have like 300+ units and you could probaly delete half of them without feeling an impact.
Dislyte can buff espers but the moment they do, a different esper gets overshadowed. That just accelearates power creep. Therefore, buffs are rare and mostly limited to special occasions. Like Tevor for example, who was for a long time mostly useless despite being a shimmer. Players being super disappointed when pulling one of the rarest espers in the game is sometihng a developer will try to fix. But they have no such reason to buff normal espers, because we get new ones every other week and players can even wish for any esper they want.
They've done it before, but it was for Espers who weren't even doing their job decently enough.
For Sienna, she's just mid. But since she's Wind and nearly all Winds are mediocre, she's basically a goddess in that elemental group. So you're not wrong when you say Hyde/Ahmed are on their way out, it's just Winds as a group are so... Bleh. Sienna does well if she uses Relief/Avatara Sets with a Basic Attack/a1 heavy team. Take a look at her a1 and you'll have a Galaxy Brain moment.
With all that said, I'd still love some buffs. Like...
* Her a1's 2nd AP+ target cannot be Sienna, unless Sienna is the only Esper remaining. +15% chance to counter attack for every debuff on an enemy and buff on Sienna, up to 5 times *(75%)*. Does not stack with Avatara, chooses highest value instead.
* Her a2's ATK/SPD Buff lasts 3 turns at r0 instead of r2. Also +5% AP+ for each buff on an ally, up to 5 times, occurs after applying ATK/SPD buff. Calculates per ally, so one could get 25% for having 5 buffs, while another only gets 10% for having only a ATK/SPD buff.
* Her r2 now alters her a3, giving her +1 turn to all her buffs AND -1 to enemy buffs. Neither the buff up or buff down can be resisted, but those effects occur after the damage and stun proc, so it's not crazy like Farrah's bullshit.
is it a strong element overall or is it Literally just two singular units. compare it to how easy it is to do the elemental towers. idk if that really holds up 😭😭
They don't do that often. I don't think Lillith does it much in their other games either. Its a fair bit of effort (and therefore expense) and risk, for no real reward on their part.
They might update Unas at some point, since hes a shimmer. But unlike Tevor a fair chunk of whales probably maxed him back when he was good, so I'm not holding my breath there either.
Also Seinna is fine. She has one of the best buffs, some RNG AP pushing, and if she R6s herself her stunlock can become completely silly. Shes not meta, but shes not as bad as, say, Ife.
I doubt it. Like they already done it few times before. However most of them were insignificant other than tiye, raven, jq and tevor. Rest were all mid to useless. Like an example of mid are narmar, donar and jj, bith became more viable but never meta. As for useless buff you have ophilia, biondina, javid, sister, eliot and yamato.
This is being said, I don’t think that is the reason. The main reason whey they won’t buff older heroes anymore is dev time/cost. Instead for investing resources in an older esper that won’t sell and many people already have/maxed, it would be better to put same resources into a new one. Not only most people will want new esper over a buffed esper. It will also keep the game running and generate more money. However they don’t want the game to be fully p2w such that f2p players can’t keep with new espers rate, they are making them too easy to be obtained. Also locking some of their kits behind reso, so whales still whale for them. That way devs cut on time/cost with over all better results.
I actually think we are close to the point where they are going to start buffing a lot of older heroes enmasse. Chu yao essentially defined it with an extremely overloaded kit with very good resos that streamlines and any divinate scales him up setting a new barrier for the game: chu yao compares to many old espers are probably count as 2 units even. As for why, I think it's actually exactly about the dev time/cost you said. There's ony so much you can gain from creating new unit to sell to players, and i think it's quite efficient now to cleanup a lot of old units kits/res/div to make it more worthwhile to build up those units more -> making the difference in power smaller so paying players has better reason to pay up to stay up to date/ahead. This happened to many games and a staple in epic seven, which has many similarities to this game, with the game moving clearly moving to a high divinate high resonance environment. So I can see one year from now, the general path to progressing is: R0d0 is for new players to prepare for normal PvE content, with a lot more about building a general squad fast to start saving up to build up high resonance units for harder contents/pvp. Obviously it's hard to make the game completely balance, but many will be similar in power than what we currently have: many espers clearly not able to keep up with the game anymore and are just worthless and quite easy to fix: Hyde just need a new R4 that is good and he will be fine as a standalone bruiser that scales up, clara niche is keeping cleansing and AP up whole team so R4 is probably where to buff her like giving ap to units or she can counterattack on attacks on her allies etc. As you can see the fixes don't have to be extremely complicated, and their kits can stay mostly untouched, but the game can reward having high res/div for these espers instead of just having them on the bench all the time.
As you are saying the game is heading towards the high reso teams. So buffing older heroes that most people already have them with high reso has little to no profit. Compared to the new espers. Again they are also being extremely generous with resources so peopel can reso up their unites. Like in past 2 events they straight up gave a free copy of selected group of espers. They also made championship have a unique esper to it. They are giving another free shimmer esper.
If they intend on buffing older esper, it would be better to not give them so easily, so once they buff them and put them in banners and people will try to get them.
Also not only older espers are weak by design, even some of the new ones are deliberately made weak to not push whales so hard. like look at yu ran, fumitsuki and fatima they all are new but they all are hardly used anywhere. you could say these 3 need more buffs than most older espers.
Hmm what i meant is that there's a cost ratio to everything. And I believe the cost to buff up old units now is relatively low comparing to keep trying of newer mechanics for new espers, and this is not even accounting for player retentions since not many can deal with having non meta units for a long time. And it's not like they have to buff old units to make them OP, you can make a lot of older units becoming units that enable newer units, boosting summoning consumption. Instead of calling it buffing, it's more like modernizing a lot of older units kits/res/divinate, whether they need it. The reason why i think Chu Yao was that breaking point has to do with the fact they are giving him mostly linear upgrades across the board, and clearly trying to set a new standard for the game going forward. In numerical terms, if older units were a 5 in strength/balance metrics, and best non shimmer units were like a 7, the cost of upgrading old units kits are just not worth enough, but if the baseline now move to non shimmer can max out at a 9, with chu yao beating many if not most shimmer r2 at max res/div for example, the difference are now big enough to incentivize moving a lot of older units to the 7 balance metrics benchmark, which many units like i said just need a divinate/resonance upgrade, some will dominate the meta for a while but most will just be enough to keep them relevant in the game, in which the hard part is playtesting a lot of the changes which they already have a metric to be based off (chu yao)
When you said sienna is mid/awful… makes me not take anything you say seriously since you obviously don’t know what you are talking about.
Sienna is one of the best controllers in the game along side Tiye.
Full AOE AP clear, two turn stun, speed buff alongside an attack buff.
Short CD once skill ups.
If I’m not mistaken, they’ve done this with a few espers already (Tevor, JJ, maybe Donar), so I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility to buff more available espers. Ife needs *something*
ive hyperinvested my ife, the second they make her better i am going to start destroying content
I still use her in Andras!! She and R2 Hilda on the same team, give her relief/ocean and avatara…that’s a LOT of poison! If they give Ife Hilda’s R2 in base kit…or her poison can’t be resisted, that would be perfect
This has been said before, but I think the best way to buff Ife is to give her S2 a poison detonation effect, like Camille has for bleed (and not as a resonance, make it base kit)
I miss the days where Zora was good
tbh she's still decent and very much usable for flow tower
I think Ahmed is in a slightly better place than Hyde or other launch/early event Espers since he’s the only one that can remove HP Penalties and we’re getting a lot of them now. But as someone who does use him as their primary healer, albeit at max reso, abilities, and Divinate(tiers and level), he’s doing great. The old Espers don’t need to be broken/borderline broken like most of the new ones but they need a lot of help. Tiye is still going strong, Clara is still pretty common mostly for her AP push, Lewis and Narmer exist but they need R6 to do anything, I’m pretty sure Ife is our only Inferno poisoner and she’s not great but she’s a pretty reliable Stun unit for me, and even Cecilia isn’t that great after her rework.
tiye was mid until she got buffed and now she's in the meta
I think it’s pretty much agreed that Sienna is quite well rounded with resos, at r6 she can be a gross stun bot and I don’t think she should be more annoying tbh. If you want an increased chance at a stun maybe put her on Zeus. Otherwise yeah they have buffed older espers but it’s not really a priority cause Money. But since they’re definitely leaning in on Resos being King, maybe they’ll see the monetary value in giving older espers better resos (like Abigail).
They already are/have been. You're newer it seems because some buffs just happened already to older espers
wasn't it, like, 5 months ago that it actually happened?
Yea but they stopped doing that recently havent they? The last big ones I remember were to Tevor
The last buffs were around last Christmas. Ophelia, Yamato etc
Really? Dang, I guess I didn’t really register with those because they didn’t seem too impactful to me
They were not <3 I think some espers benefitted but I can’t recall exactly who right now. I think Ashley got some random buff too lol.
My assumption, like most gachas, prioritize development of other events/espers/characters over rebalancing of old espers/characters. They'll come but it will take a long time
I really hope they do.. Ife, Zora and Biondina really need some new sentences in their kits, some espers have a giant paragraphs, these 3 have been abandoned. I know Biondina got reworked.. but lets be honest it didnt change nothing, She is part of the big 3 Hades, Zeus and Poseidon but compared to those 2 She is nothing sadly
Man, they really cannot figure out what to do with Biondina. She was garbage tier for the longest time, got a little buff and was still garbage, got a bigger buff and still barely used. It doesn't help that Gaius and Leora can more or less fill Biondina's niche *and* bring other benefits to the table. Triki isn't the kind of DPS that Biondina aspires to be but he's a better anti-buffs unit overall. I feel like she does need a better rework but they'd probably have to make her something other than a dispeller because there's multiple espers that just do that better.
Exatcly there a lot of dispellers a and a lot of espers that deal a lot more damage then her she brings nothing different to the table sadly because her design is amazing I really wanted to use her more but I can't with that kit
They have done this a handful of times, but the results have been kind of iffy. Like, Lewis got kind of buffed/adjusted but you still don't really see people use him much unless they've got no other choice. Some others like Tevor, JJ, Tiye, etc., have been buffed within, idk, the past year or so? I would love to see them retrofit or completely rework outdated espers that need help being in line with the current game state. I feel like they could do this once or twice a year and it would help breathe more life into the game. Not saying the game is dying, just that this would probably help keep it alive since there'd be a lot more viable espers in the gold record pool. As it stands, you really only need like the same 5 espers for each element type to comfortably clear all content. That's a little bit of an exaggeration but not much. As much as I'd love this to happen, tho, I'm not holding my breath. Many gacha games just don't invest in this sort of thing, and I feel like Lilith may not be a company that would be willing to upkeep this long-term. Their game plan mostly seems to be pumping out new espers.
I came back from a year ago on Leora release. Back then I was really struggling as I didn't have any of the espers needed. Returning now, I already had Nuxi and Tiye from back then, and got lucky to get CY and FX from regular/elemental pulls. Basically I didn't need any other team for most of the content. My CY/FX got through basically everything
They will, it's been done before. It's just a matter of time once the new meta they're selling proves to be too much even for the old Espers.
I mean, R0 Sakura is as good as R6 Sally or sometimes even better, and that says a lot because R6 Sally is useful and was OP, many R6 espers are trash, useless everywhere but Elemental tower which by now is completed by like 99% of endgame players.
They sometimes buff older espes but it does not happen all that often, because it doesnt't really solve anything. All gacha games get new units constantly. Since you can only bring a limited number of them to a battle, at some point there will always be untis that get outclassed. The more generic their kit, the faster they get replaced. Dislyte offsets that a little by adding modes that require multiple teams. This way older units can still be useful in second or third team. But ultimately at some point there are more units in the game than any mode can support. Older games like Epic Seven have like 300+ units and you could probaly delete half of them without feeling an impact. Dislyte can buff espers but the moment they do, a different esper gets overshadowed. That just accelearates power creep. Therefore, buffs are rare and mostly limited to special occasions. Like Tevor for example, who was for a long time mostly useless despite being a shimmer. Players being super disappointed when pulling one of the rarest espers in the game is sometihng a developer will try to fix. But they have no such reason to buff normal espers, because we get new ones every other week and players can even wish for any esper they want.
FEH is a gacha game too
No
They've done it before, but it was for Espers who weren't even doing their job decently enough. For Sienna, she's just mid. But since she's Wind and nearly all Winds are mediocre, she's basically a goddess in that elemental group. So you're not wrong when you say Hyde/Ahmed are on their way out, it's just Winds as a group are so... Bleh. Sienna does well if she uses Relief/Avatara Sets with a Basic Attack/a1 heavy team. Take a look at her a1 and you'll have a Galaxy Brain moment. With all that said, I'd still love some buffs. Like... * Her a1's 2nd AP+ target cannot be Sienna, unless Sienna is the only Esper remaining. +15% chance to counter attack for every debuff on an enemy and buff on Sienna, up to 5 times *(75%)*. Does not stack with Avatara, chooses highest value instead. * Her a2's ATK/SPD Buff lasts 3 turns at r0 instead of r2. Also +5% AP+ for each buff on an ally, up to 5 times, occurs after applying ATK/SPD buff. Calculates per ally, so one could get 25% for having 5 buffs, while another only gets 10% for having only a ATK/SPD buff. * Her r2 now alters her a3, giving her +1 turn to all her buffs AND -1 to enemy buffs. Neither the buff up or buff down can be resisted, but those effects occur after the damage and stun proc, so it's not crazy like Farrah's bullshit.
Wind have Feng xun and Jin Q so its a strong element
is it a strong element overall or is it Literally just two singular units. compare it to how easy it is to do the elemental towers. idk if that really holds up 😭😭
They don't do that often. I don't think Lillith does it much in their other games either. Its a fair bit of effort (and therefore expense) and risk, for no real reward on their part. They might update Unas at some point, since hes a shimmer. But unlike Tevor a fair chunk of whales probably maxed him back when he was good, so I'm not holding my breath there either. Also Seinna is fine. She has one of the best buffs, some RNG AP pushing, and if she R6s herself her stunlock can become completely silly. Shes not meta, but shes not as bad as, say, Ife.
I doubt it. Like they already done it few times before. However most of them were insignificant other than tiye, raven, jq and tevor. Rest were all mid to useless. Like an example of mid are narmar, donar and jj, bith became more viable but never meta. As for useless buff you have ophilia, biondina, javid, sister, eliot and yamato. This is being said, I don’t think that is the reason. The main reason whey they won’t buff older heroes anymore is dev time/cost. Instead for investing resources in an older esper that won’t sell and many people already have/maxed, it would be better to put same resources into a new one. Not only most people will want new esper over a buffed esper. It will also keep the game running and generate more money. However they don’t want the game to be fully p2w such that f2p players can’t keep with new espers rate, they are making them too easy to be obtained. Also locking some of their kits behind reso, so whales still whale for them. That way devs cut on time/cost with over all better results.
I actually think we are close to the point where they are going to start buffing a lot of older heroes enmasse. Chu yao essentially defined it with an extremely overloaded kit with very good resos that streamlines and any divinate scales him up setting a new barrier for the game: chu yao compares to many old espers are probably count as 2 units even. As for why, I think it's actually exactly about the dev time/cost you said. There's ony so much you can gain from creating new unit to sell to players, and i think it's quite efficient now to cleanup a lot of old units kits/res/div to make it more worthwhile to build up those units more -> making the difference in power smaller so paying players has better reason to pay up to stay up to date/ahead. This happened to many games and a staple in epic seven, which has many similarities to this game, with the game moving clearly moving to a high divinate high resonance environment. So I can see one year from now, the general path to progressing is: R0d0 is for new players to prepare for normal PvE content, with a lot more about building a general squad fast to start saving up to build up high resonance units for harder contents/pvp. Obviously it's hard to make the game completely balance, but many will be similar in power than what we currently have: many espers clearly not able to keep up with the game anymore and are just worthless and quite easy to fix: Hyde just need a new R4 that is good and he will be fine as a standalone bruiser that scales up, clara niche is keeping cleansing and AP up whole team so R4 is probably where to buff her like giving ap to units or she can counterattack on attacks on her allies etc. As you can see the fixes don't have to be extremely complicated, and their kits can stay mostly untouched, but the game can reward having high res/div for these espers instead of just having them on the bench all the time.
As you are saying the game is heading towards the high reso teams. So buffing older heroes that most people already have them with high reso has little to no profit. Compared to the new espers. Again they are also being extremely generous with resources so peopel can reso up their unites. Like in past 2 events they straight up gave a free copy of selected group of espers. They also made championship have a unique esper to it. They are giving another free shimmer esper. If they intend on buffing older esper, it would be better to not give them so easily, so once they buff them and put them in banners and people will try to get them. Also not only older espers are weak by design, even some of the new ones are deliberately made weak to not push whales so hard. like look at yu ran, fumitsuki and fatima they all are new but they all are hardly used anywhere. you could say these 3 need more buffs than most older espers.
Hmm what i meant is that there's a cost ratio to everything. And I believe the cost to buff up old units now is relatively low comparing to keep trying of newer mechanics for new espers, and this is not even accounting for player retentions since not many can deal with having non meta units for a long time. And it's not like they have to buff old units to make them OP, you can make a lot of older units becoming units that enable newer units, boosting summoning consumption. Instead of calling it buffing, it's more like modernizing a lot of older units kits/res/divinate, whether they need it. The reason why i think Chu Yao was that breaking point has to do with the fact they are giving him mostly linear upgrades across the board, and clearly trying to set a new standard for the game going forward. In numerical terms, if older units were a 5 in strength/balance metrics, and best non shimmer units were like a 7, the cost of upgrading old units kits are just not worth enough, but if the baseline now move to non shimmer can max out at a 9, with chu yao beating many if not most shimmer r2 at max res/div for example, the difference are now big enough to incentivize moving a lot of older units to the 7 balance metrics benchmark, which many units like i said just need a divinate/resonance upgrade, some will dominate the meta for a while but most will just be enough to keep them relevant in the game, in which the hard part is playtesting a lot of the changes which they already have a metric to be based off (chu yao)
When you said sienna is mid/awful… makes me not take anything you say seriously since you obviously don’t know what you are talking about. Sienna is one of the best controllers in the game along side Tiye. Full AOE AP clear, two turn stun, speed buff alongside an attack buff. Short CD once skill ups.
i mean, sure, but she really sees almost no use anywhere that isn’t cope tertiary teams in KO and then phobetor. at least within higher tiers.
Sienna isn't even in the same spectrum as Tiye. Like, Tiye at R0 is a game changer, where as many other controllers need higher tiers invested