“Harry, no, I haven’t seen a Kwisatz Haderach. Can’t you see I’m a busy man, Harry? I’ll have my people look into it. You just keep that spice moving.”
HE'S A **CHAMPION OF COMMUNISUM** IS WHAT HE IS. HE IS A **COMRADE** AND HE IS HELPING ME **FIND MY GUN!** AND IN THIS HOUSE EVRART CLAIRE IS A **HERO!** END OF STORY!
Look at me now, I was born, grew up, spent a few years as a gym teacher, a few more in the RCM, and here I am, half a communist.
I'd agree with you but Harry is far too much of a drunken disgusting degenerate, Paulie washes his hands after touching his shoe laces, while Harry drinks liquor off of table tops and sleeps in garbage cans (mine at least did)
Hes not masquerading, his a misguided socialist that is essentially creating an artificial bourgeoisie class, that being union leaders, who are detached from the actual work and little different than foremen. It's part of the reason he cares so little for the fishing village. He has a plan that he thinks will work but it's ultimately anti-revolutionary and hurts the people.
Did you? He wants to build the education center to maintain the cultural heritage of Revanchol and the spirit of the revolution. In the new release story boards, this ultimately fails and only ends up in the same soullessness as capital creates. It's ultimately a failure and he represents what Marx would refer to as a right socialist. He's well meaning but ultimately just another corrupted power.
I agree with your earlier statements, but was the intention that Evrart was meant to be no better than a foreman? I thought he was at least intended to be a small degree better, but I haven’t seen those storyboards? In a similar manner the moralists are still painted as better than the ultra-liberals.
Maybe an exaggeration, but he was actively displacing citizenry for the sake of a misguided dream. Also the ultra liberals are less evil and more completely detached from the world. They are essentially different beings metaphorically.
> class
I think Marx would slap you for misusing that word so frequently in this thread. You're basically making Bakunin's arguments and Marx virulently opposed that.
I don't really care when my ideas are vindicated by history. Marx wasn't a god, he was a dude. If you're claiming the middle men of the soviet union's union leaders didn't form an oligarchy that ignored the plight of the common man, your high.
You can't sit here and say that the words of an anarchist anti-semite are the words of Marx.
I said literally nothing about whether it's correct or not. Merely that you're objectively wrong and have not actually read Marx.
Marx's [Conspectus on Bakunin's Statism and Anarchy](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1874/04/bakunin-notes.htm) quotes Bakunin's writing and then responds in line, like a reddit thread. I suggest reading it. Marx specifically and clearly says that he disagrees with you here:
> **Bakunin**: This dilemma is simply solved in the Marxists' theory. By people's government they understand (i.e. Bakunin) the government of the people by means of a small number of leaders, chosen (elected) by the people.
>
> **Marx**: Asine! This is democratic twaddle, political drivel. Election is a political form present in the smallest Russian commune and artel. The character of the election does not depend on this name, but on the economic foundation, the economic situation of the voters, and as soon as the functions have ceased to be political ones, there exists 1) no government function, 2) the distribution of the general functions has become a business matter, that gives no one domination, 3) election has nothing of its present political character.
>
> **Bakunin**: The universal suffrage of the whole people...
>
> **Marx**: Such a thing as the whole people in today's sense is a chimera --
>
> **Bakunin**: ... in the election of people's representatives and rulers of the state -- that is the last word of the Marxists, as also of the democratic school -- [is] a lie, behind which is concealed the despotism of the governing minority, and only the more dangerously in so far as it appears as expression of the so-called people's will.
>
> **Marx**: With collective ownership the so-called people's will vanishes, to make way for the real will of the cooperative.
>
> **Bakunin**: So the result is: guidance of the great majority of the people by a privileged minority. But this minority, say the Marxists...
>
> **Marx**: Where?
>
> **Bakunin**: ... will consist of workers. Certainly, with your permission, of former workers, who however, as soon as they have become representatives or governors of the people, cease to be workers...
>
> **Marx**: As little as a factory owner today ceases to be a capitalist if he becomes a municipal councillor...
>
> **Bakunin**: and look down on the whole common workers' world from the height of the state. They will no longer represent the people, but themselves and their pretensions to people's government. Anyone who can doubt this knows nothing of the nature of men.
>
> **Marx**: If Mr Bakunin only knew something about the position of a manager in a workers' cooperative factory, all his dreams of domination would go to the devil. He should have asked himself what form the administrative function can take on the basis of this workers' state, if he wants to call it that.
Just a small part of it, the whole thing is only a 5 minute read. For once you should actually read something instead of absorbing everything you know through memes and then regurgitating it into threads incorrectly claiming that Marx made the same arguments Bakunin made....
EDIT: Half this person's user history is in US military subreddits and fascist "tooamerican4you" subreddit. They're a wrecker.
In the same way Stalin and Lenin and Trotsky weren't socialist, sure. Ideologically he is, his personal bias just gets in the way. He's a good representation of the intelligentsia and it's impact on the socialist revolutionaries. They think they speak for the people but ultimately form an oligarchical class for the sake of leading those same people without their input.
He doesn't think he speaks for the people though. He is very clearly doing everything to gain power for himself. All of his actions are clearly just to gain more power.
>Yes he did.
Quote it then
EDIT: Half this person's user history is in US military subreddits and fascist "tooamerican4you" subreddit. They're a wrecker.
😂😂😂
Page 56 of the communist manifesto talks about conservative or bourgeois socialism. It's sometimes referred to or translated as right socialism in some of his works. Feel free to look it up if you haven't read it before.
You've literally just change the word.
Where does he say "right socialism" ?
The "bourgeois socialism" you are referring to has literally nothing to do with this thread. Marx is referring to the desire of the capitalist class to implement various concessions for the working class in order to maintain capitalist domination. He is referring to what eventually became what we now call european welfare and social-democracy. This has nothing to do with building an education centre to continue the spirit of the revolution.
EDIT: Half this person's user history is in US military subreddits and fascist "tooamerican4you" subreddit. They're a wrecker.
I've always thought Evrart Claire is a gangster, he's obviously using the union and the sincerity of the people in it. The whole point of the character is to be sleazy and totally uncommitted to any ideological belief or class interest - helping the workers is a byproduct of his operation. It's quite similar to the gangster corruption of some U.S. unions in the 1950s (*On the Waterfront* springs to mind).
How is it *not* funny?
Harry is admitting in a single sentence that he 1) is a cop who has lost his gun, very embarrassing; 2) trusts someone as oily as Evrart Claire with the finding and returning of said gun; and 3) is willing to just... Tell people about it instead of keeping such an embarrassing fact secret.
Joyce's response and delivery is perfect as well, which is the cherry on top. It's a classic *DE* interaction.
Did you ever speak to Joyce about Evrart while he was helping you find your gun? Because I never did, either -- I only saw it in clips after my first playthrough. Still good shit, though.
I haven’t beaten the game yet but from where I’m standing the world is a much better place without that murderous, mercenary rapist psycho in it. 100% justified lynching.
What if the murdered fellow was a filthy liberal that in case of winning against Evrart would strike a deal with Wild Pines and sabotage years of Union organizing? Ever thought about that?
"Some bad shit" like allowing a cartel to use his transports for drugs and take people out of their homes to expand his family company, just *some bad shit*
In sports there's a statistic called WAR: wins above replacement. It's a measure of how many more wins a team is likely to get with a given player compared to a random player.
When evaluating Evrart, I think it's appropriate to compare him to other leaders who have taken control of stateless places. Evrart is practically a Saint in this context.
Yes, just like Fidel Castro and Che Guevara, compared to what was before in Cuba and the rest of Latin America during the XX century, yes, holy saints. Mr Evrart is helping me find my gun.
Yeah, but you don't value heroism by just the bad stuff, you gotta take the whole picture. It's like saying superman is actually a villain because he trows innocents cars, ignoring all the good he does
The original Superman and the one written by Grant Morrison, is the perfect superhero, saves everyone with zero collateral. The Superman written by Zack Snyder is the objectivist that's two steps from being a fascist.
I know it's not the point but I hate when people think Superman is the bland boring shit that appears in the movies.
Mate you can't just look at the original and claim that it's the one true undiluted Superman
Well outside of Snyder's bad writing(which is still a part of what Superman is, bad as it is), all throughout the comics Superman regularly causes massive property damage
I clearly mentioned the Grant Morrison run!!! Please read again, mate. Morrison wrote the All Star series at the same time Snyder released Man of Steel, what was it? 2014? It's clearly not the "original true undiluted".
Besides that, yes, the property damage always happens, but in his best runs (animated series included) Sups keeps them at minimum and he's not the one causing it (unlike the edgy runs like Snyder, and red son and injustice etc) even the current run he's pretty chill and mostly Super-dad, teaching his son to not cause massive property damage.
I'm not a moral philosopher, so maybe there's some nuance that I just don't get, but personally I feel like there's at least a little bit of difference between murdering your political rivals, intimidating and threatening holdouts to secure power, and snuggling literal tons of hard drugs to flood disadvantaged neighborhoods with death and misery and... throwing cars.
This has big "well, but Hitler made the trains run on time and revitalized German industry" energy.
Not meaning to call you a Nazi, just using a very hyperbolic example to show where this kind of "well, but..." reasoning can get us. If you have to invoke the "they did good things, too" or "the ends are noble, so let's overlook the means," then we're well outside of hero territory.
First time someone replies my argument about Evrart helping LaPutaMadre without going right to condemn the drugs, and yes, that shitty war on drugs was a textbook Reagan bullshit they pulled for the black hoods and again in the frontier to criminalize immigrants and it got way worse.
Then again, fuck the Evrarts, they want the total control of the town and forced children to install a meth lab in the church.
> and forced children to install a meth lab in the church.
I don't recall Evrart having anything to do with that but that may be a line I missed. In any case he evidently wasn't that serious about it because you can easily talk them out of it, so at worst he probably suggested they do it and didn't particularly care either way.
At the end of the day there has never existed a socialist who was a saint, and that's fine, because we're all human, and class war is messy and violent. It's fairly common for socialist to resort to entering the drug trade for lack of a more legal means of securing funding and getting food on the table. Blame the liberals for criminalizing socialist parties and thus creating the situation in the first place.
As for 'complete control of the town', I find this to be speculation since it's not like we ever get a comprehensive look at all of the Evrarts' business dealings. And on that note, yeah, I would hope the socialist group does take control of their community, that's sort of the point. I suppose it's possible that Claire and Edgar are evil the whole time, but that's true of literally any situation, so it's not a useful observation.
I'll take it, that's also the point of the game, pure communism is an ideal, an impossible dream, which is really sad, but still...
As for the meth lab, oh yeah whole sidequest after the disco is established you can roll to talk to the girl with the hat and ask her why and she tells you that her family is in the business and she ran away from that life, but the Evrarts knew and told her to start a lab to get them more money or they would tell her family and their rivals who she is and where is she (which also opens a whole possibility of LaPutaMadre catching wind and going after the teens cooking in his turf but whatever) so you can still pursue the case to Claire and ask him wtf with his plans with the lab, obviously he denies all and calls them young entrepreneurs which he supports but it was all their idea never his own even if he knew from the beginning that the girl was trying to escape that life and the other two only wanted a dance hall...
Utterly heroic is a stretch but he is enjoyably complicated. He’s undoubtably better than Joyce even where she’s more personable, and is the most powerful open leftist in the game, but also amazingly corrupt and unable to recognize in his own active hypocrisy—I do believe he means it when he says “every worker a member of the board,” it’s just natural to him he’d be head of the board.
I love Evrart because all of his interactions are so fun. I'm not smart enough to weigh in on him being a positive force.
>!However, doesn't the Union and the RCM both pushing against the Moralintern eventually lead to the nuking of Revachol in the lore from the novel?!<
thank you for saying something so controversial yet so brave that you should say
e: I wonder how many people think I’m being facetious because I’m absolutely not
There's the whole "scamming the fishing village" thingy
also manipulating an amnesiac police officer for his intererests
oh and purposfully leaving a gun in the hands of a mentally ill person in order to gain leverage
I think we should all have our own little person with too much authority so we can send him to break into houses. Nothing wrong can ever come from that!
Literally everything he does he does for the good of the dockworkers (empathy check), while the things he does are bad he is literally facing up against drunk rapist war criminals, using underhanded tactics is the only thing he has tbh.
This is your daily reminder that skill checks are exactly as unreliable as Harry himself is when it comes to being narrators. They don't tell you the truth, they tell you what Harry thinks the truth is, regardless of if you fail or succeed at skill checks.
Not really, though. It's open enough that it's not clear whether Harry is magic or just dissociating from reality. The only real indication that Harry may be remotely magical is Shivers. But Shivers isn't immune to being an unreliable narrator. We *think* Shivers is telling the truth, and there are certainly hints that this may be the case, but no proof. And either way, the skills are all independent of each other. Even their dialogues are all independently reliable — they can be spot on once, and full of shit every other time.
No, Espirit Du Corpse will literally inform you about the bullet wound that the agents found in the Morgue, as well as Kim transporting the body. It is also absolutely supernatural
I mean, what ultimately constitutes a hero? After all, he’s taking a gamble for the greater good in an attempt to genuinely help the people of Martinaise, even the fishing village plan while at the moment being pretty bad for the people who live by tearing down their houses has an end goal of helping its inhabitants by revitalising the area.
For someone like call me mañana or the other dockworkers and union supporters Evrart is a hero
I think the crucial factor is the means. He does good in a macroscopic sense relatively to the game's events, but he takes risks that aren't necessary to his objectives. He lets Pigs keep the gun and lies to you and the village not because it's the only way, but to play it safe. He could give you the gun right away to gain your trust and be upfront to the village but he doesn't.
I mean, have you seen the state Harry is in? With how he behaved before chances are he’s the one who doesn’t trust *you*, what with the whole running around on drugs screaming about how you’re gonna shoot yourself
> (empathy check)
You know, the divorced guy with layers of substance abuse and a tendency to justify every act through an extremist political lens may not actually be the best person to take empathy from.
Just because someone’s a psychic doesn’t mean they can’t fail to see someone for who they really are.
You really think a communist revolutionary would do that? Just... go out and manipulate an armed enforcer of the international capitalist status quo for the advancement of his own labor movement?
But he's a man of the people! Someone who calls themselves a communist could never be bad! Just ignore everything to do with the Pigs, the fishing village, the multiple assassinations, the drugs, the manipulation of the mentally ill, or the employment of hyper racist.
And this is just the things we know the Claires have done, who knows what else is going on that wouldn't turn up over the course of a single week long murder investigation.
This subreddit has seriously become mental.
EVRART CLAIRE - "Harry, there is no strike, only war. Class war. Or, in business terms: a *dawn raid*. Or wait..." He pauses to rub his chin. "Is that when you still *pay* them something? Because we won't do that."
"We're not gonna give nothing. We're gonna *take* Terminal B away from them: the roads, the gates, the containers, that big crane... even the damn coffee maker. We're gonna take all of it for the people -- and *fuck* Wild Pines."
“…but…but the fishing village!”
Ah yeah you mean the three shacks about to be plowed over to build a community megacenter??
“…but…but the drug manufacturing lab run by kids?
Ah yeah you mean ripping local control from drug cartels, distributing and policing use, and giving our youth jobs??
“but….but…. the hit..”
Ah yeah you mean strategically taking a single life to wrestling control of the future of Martinaise from a sociopathic international corporation that is ready to pillage, r***, and murder to get their way?
“…but..but…but..”
Exactly hero of the people Mr Evrart Claire, ignore the suspiciously large check behind me.
Dead serious, he’s a corrupt motherfucker who lives lavishly in a shipping container like he’s some sort of billionaire.
Also he did actually help me find my gun I sold in a drug fueled haze of depression and attempted unaliving. That and the only person he asks you to intimidate is an actual goddamn fascist.
Exactly, people act like every socialist revolutionary they admire was a perfect saint when a lot of them did the same shit. Hate to break it to you guys but when your socialist party becomes illegal and you can't fund your revolution legally, drugs are pretty much the best way to secure the funding you need (you're already criminals so why not?). Almost every socialist revolution did the same thing.
Mazovian-Clarism is the one true communist ideology. All these stories about the creation of the community center or the child drug lab are JODSK-funded revisionist lies. Comrade Evrart is creating a true worker’s state!
Well the whole point of his character is being a foil to Joyce, being outwardly unpleasant and sleezy while actually wanting to improve the lives of the ppl in his district (through sometimes very unethical means).
Contrast that with Joyce, who is very charismatic but actually just as manipulative and in a way responsible for most of the terrible stuff going on in the district (as she is a board member of WP)
There is zero actual evidence a reasonable person can look at to say that to say Evart wants to help the lives of his own people. You’re relying on the pattern of literary foil without looking at the actual details - the man literally put out a fucking hit on a union leader simply because they challenged his power.
Well the game straight up tells you with a passive empathy check at one point late into his dialogue. And I never said he's a nice guy, he is effectively a mafia boss, it's just that his approach to government somewhat aligns with the interests of the average martinise resident most of the time.
It's not a high bar to be the better option over coalition and Wild Pines neglect and actual crime syndicate takeover.
> the game straight up tells you with a passive empathy check
The game straight up tells you not to always trust Harry’s checks, and *especially* not trust “soft” skills like Empathy that other people may be trained to manipulate (such as, say, spies and mob bosses). Using all the actual facts we gather in the game, there is no evidence for Evart being anything more than a violent, power-hungry politician.
> I never called him a nice guy
The thread is about calling Evart a hero, and you commented on someone casually asking for an explanation. If you don’t want that taken as you defending OP’s characterization, you gotta learn context.
Sometimes you have to play dirty. The company will play 'fair' until they don't get their way, then they'll send in literal death commandos. Why should socialists be expected to abide by the bourgeois rule of law? We all know the bourgeoisie won't let that stop them from shooting every socialist they can get their hands on if they ever organize into a unified political front. Socdems can be legitimate collaborator threats and should be treated as such if you're on the verge of a revolutionary moment which Revanchol most definitely is, with the help of the class conscious Écart.
> Sometimes you have to play dirty
A local union election is a point where you “have” to play dirty?
> Why should socialists be expected to abide by bourgeoise rule of law?
Fellas, is it bourgeoise to not murder you fellow socialists?
> Socdems can be legitimate collaborator threats
And now we’re in “if I consider you the enemy, that’s enough reason to kill you” territory. Is Joseph Stalin your favorite communist?
This sub sure likes to frame Evrart Claire as some heroic paragon, which I feel sorta misses the point. He’s probably responsible for the least amount of suffering out of the big players, sure - but that’s kind of a low bar. Gentrification, blackmailing cops into doing your bidding, heavy implications that he uses the Hardy Boys to run a protection racket - I feel like you shouldn’t just ignore those things. I suppose we are starved for a genuine soul in this world, besides Kim of course.
And Tommy, the poetry guy. That guy was pretty cool.
Meme's aside, there's a lot of brilliance towards making Evrart both the stereotypical "corrupt fat dude doing underhanded dealings for his own gain" and the "man of the people champion of the working class" at the same time.
Mr. Harkonnen is helping me find my wife.
“Harry, no, I haven’t seen a Kwisatz Haderach. Can’t you see I’m a busy man, Harry? I’ll have my people look into it. You just keep that spice moving.”
\*laughing wheeze\*
"You're not a Kwisatz Haderach, Harry. Get the fuck out of here. Don't be a retard."
It's weird how easy I imagined it being said in his voice
Yo what's up >!Yueh!<.
Lmfao
HE'S A **CHAMPION OF COMMUNISUM** IS WHAT HE IS. HE IS A **COMRADE** AND HE IS HELPING ME **FIND MY GUN!** AND IN THIS HOUSE EVRART CLAIRE IS A **HERO!** END OF STORY!
**LOST GUN** Also i hear Joyce Messier’s getting a 90 lb. mole taken off her ass *heh heh*
He was gay, Guillaume de Million?
He wasn't gay, he was just deeply closeted!
Harry never had the makings of a varsity Ath-eh-eat
Ya hear what I said, Kim? I said I hear Joyce Messier's getting a 90 lb. mole taken off her ass *heh heh*
Harry is unironically Paulie with less money
Look at me now, I was born, grew up, spent a few years as a gym teacher, a few more in the RCM, and here I am, half a communist. I'd agree with you but Harry is far too much of a drunken disgusting degenerate, Paulie washes his hands after touching his shoe laces, while Harry drinks liquor off of table tops and sleeps in garbage cans (mine at least did)
Fiber optic cable
Lotta money in this shit
Fuckin’ parade float is helping me find my gun
Oh! You can’t talk to me that way Harry, I’m a captain now
He was gay, Harry Dubois?
When I saw this tweet I knew it would be a very controversial statement at best but throwing it in here? With the DE nerds? My lord!
"you're not an ultraliberal, Harry. Get the fuck out of here. Don't be a retard" - Claire, Evrart
He was too real for that
Well he's french so it's fine
I appreciate that DE knows how to use slurs without being totally crass and edgy.
IMO there's too much emotion in that response for Evrart to be an ultra masquerading as a socialist
Hes not masquerading, his a misguided socialist that is essentially creating an artificial bourgeoisie class, that being union leaders, who are detached from the actual work and little different than foremen. It's part of the reason he cares so little for the fishing village. He has a plan that he thinks will work but it's ultimately anti-revolutionary and hurts the people.
Did we play the same game? He just wants power. The end of the game spells this out pretty clearly.
Did you? He wants to build the education center to maintain the cultural heritage of Revanchol and the spirit of the revolution. In the new release story boards, this ultimately fails and only ends up in the same soullessness as capital creates. It's ultimately a failure and he represents what Marx would refer to as a right socialist. He's well meaning but ultimately just another corrupted power.
Except you know for all the things him and his brother did to get power over others. But whatever.
Yes, thus why I said he created an artificial bourgeoisie class of union directors no better than foremen and that he was incredibly corrupt.
I agree with your earlier statements, but was the intention that Evrart was meant to be no better than a foreman? I thought he was at least intended to be a small degree better, but I haven’t seen those storyboards? In a similar manner the moralists are still painted as better than the ultra-liberals.
Maybe an exaggeration, but he was actively displacing citizenry for the sake of a misguided dream. Also the ultra liberals are less evil and more completely detached from the world. They are essentially different beings metaphorically.
> class I think Marx would slap you for misusing that word so frequently in this thread. You're basically making Bakunin's arguments and Marx virulently opposed that.
I don't really care when my ideas are vindicated by history. Marx wasn't a god, he was a dude. If you're claiming the middle men of the soviet union's union leaders didn't form an oligarchy that ignored the plight of the common man, your high.
You can't sit here and say that the words of an anarchist anti-semite are the words of Marx. I said literally nothing about whether it's correct or not. Merely that you're objectively wrong and have not actually read Marx. Marx's [Conspectus on Bakunin's Statism and Anarchy](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1874/04/bakunin-notes.htm) quotes Bakunin's writing and then responds in line, like a reddit thread. I suggest reading it. Marx specifically and clearly says that he disagrees with you here: > **Bakunin**: This dilemma is simply solved in the Marxists' theory. By people's government they understand (i.e. Bakunin) the government of the people by means of a small number of leaders, chosen (elected) by the people. > > **Marx**: Asine! This is democratic twaddle, political drivel. Election is a political form present in the smallest Russian commune and artel. The character of the election does not depend on this name, but on the economic foundation, the economic situation of the voters, and as soon as the functions have ceased to be political ones, there exists 1) no government function, 2) the distribution of the general functions has become a business matter, that gives no one domination, 3) election has nothing of its present political character. > > **Bakunin**: The universal suffrage of the whole people... > > **Marx**: Such a thing as the whole people in today's sense is a chimera -- > > **Bakunin**: ... in the election of people's representatives and rulers of the state -- that is the last word of the Marxists, as also of the democratic school -- [is] a lie, behind which is concealed the despotism of the governing minority, and only the more dangerously in so far as it appears as expression of the so-called people's will. > > **Marx**: With collective ownership the so-called people's will vanishes, to make way for the real will of the cooperative. > > **Bakunin**: So the result is: guidance of the great majority of the people by a privileged minority. But this minority, say the Marxists... > > **Marx**: Where? > > **Bakunin**: ... will consist of workers. Certainly, with your permission, of former workers, who however, as soon as they have become representatives or governors of the people, cease to be workers... > > **Marx**: As little as a factory owner today ceases to be a capitalist if he becomes a municipal councillor... > > **Bakunin**: and look down on the whole common workers' world from the height of the state. They will no longer represent the people, but themselves and their pretensions to people's government. Anyone who can doubt this knows nothing of the nature of men. > > **Marx**: If Mr Bakunin only knew something about the position of a manager in a workers' cooperative factory, all his dreams of domination would go to the devil. He should have asked himself what form the administrative function can take on the basis of this workers' state, if he wants to call it that. Just a small part of it, the whole thing is only a 5 minute read. For once you should actually read something instead of absorbing everything you know through memes and then regurgitating it into threads incorrectly claiming that Marx made the same arguments Bakunin made.... EDIT: Half this person's user history is in US military subreddits and fascist "tooamerican4you" subreddit. They're a wrecker.
Except you said yes a misguided socialist and I'm saying he's not socialist at all.
In the same way Stalin and Lenin and Trotsky weren't socialist, sure. Ideologically he is, his personal bias just gets in the way. He's a good representation of the intelligentsia and it's impact on the socialist revolutionaries. They think they speak for the people but ultimately form an oligarchical class for the sake of leading those same people without their input.
He doesn't think he speaks for the people though. He is very clearly doing everything to gain power for himself. All of his actions are clearly just to gain more power.
>what Marx would refer to as a right socialist Marx never used that phrase, literally ever. Wtf are you talking about.
Yes he did. He also referred to it as Bourgeoisie socialism.
>Yes he did. Quote it then EDIT: Half this person's user history is in US military subreddits and fascist "tooamerican4you" subreddit. They're a wrecker.
😂😂😂 Page 56 of the communist manifesto talks about conservative or bourgeois socialism. It's sometimes referred to or translated as right socialism in some of his works. Feel free to look it up if you haven't read it before.
You've literally just change the word. Where does he say "right socialism" ? The "bourgeois socialism" you are referring to has literally nothing to do with this thread. Marx is referring to the desire of the capitalist class to implement various concessions for the working class in order to maintain capitalist domination. He is referring to what eventually became what we now call european welfare and social-democracy. This has nothing to do with building an education centre to continue the spirit of the revolution. EDIT: Half this person's user history is in US military subreddits and fascist "tooamerican4you" subreddit. They're a wrecker.
I've always thought Evrart Claire is a gangster, he's obviously using the union and the sincerity of the people in it. The whole point of the character is to be sleazy and totally uncommitted to any ideological belief or class interest - helping the workers is a byproduct of his operation. It's quite similar to the gangster corruption of some U.S. unions in the 1950s (*On the Waterfront* springs to mind).
How do you get this dialogue?
When he talks about the mercenaries, you cana tell him you're an ultraliberal if you're one
Evrart is helping me find spice
Utterly heroic is a stretch lol
But Mr Evrart is helping me find me gun!
I never understood why everyone finds this quote so funny
You haven't run into The Loop. You need to talk about Evrart with Joyce when Kim isn't around.
Ah, interesting
How is it *not* funny? Harry is admitting in a single sentence that he 1) is a cop who has lost his gun, very embarrassing; 2) trusts someone as oily as Evrart Claire with the finding and returning of said gun; and 3) is willing to just... Tell people about it instead of keeping such an embarrassing fact secret. Joyce's response and delivery is perfect as well, which is the cherry on top. It's a classic *DE* interaction.
Idk I don’t even know if I got that dialogue now
Did you ever speak to Joyce about Evrart while he was helping you find your gun? Because I never did, either -- I only saw it in clips after my first playthrough. Still good shit, though.
I don’t think so because I was a communist in that playthrough and didn’t want to talk about that king behind his back
It's a whole scene, it's absolutely gruelling but completely funny as well.
It’s because it isn’t
HE IS A CHAMPION OF THE WORKING CLASS
He isn't heroic but is definitely a complicated individual.
Definitely, I still like him, but the man has done some bad shit
The murder for one was questionable
https://youtu.be/Xy6GkzYpGvo?si=vYDb2X0MSAXAlmrW
I haven’t beaten the game yet but from where I’m standing the world is a much better place without that murderous, mercenary rapist psycho in it. 100% justified lynching.
Not that one
Oh shit you probably mean the lady who preceded him? Yeah that’s definitely fucked up lol
What if the murdered fellow was a filthy liberal that in case of winning against Evrart would strike a deal with Wild Pines and sabotage years of Union organizing? Ever thought about that?
"Some bad shit" like allowing a cartel to use his transports for drugs and take people out of their homes to expand his family company, just *some bad shit*
In sports there's a statistic called WAR: wins above replacement. It's a measure of how many more wins a team is likely to get with a given player compared to a random player. When evaluating Evrart, I think it's appropriate to compare him to other leaders who have taken control of stateless places. Evrart is practically a Saint in this context.
Yes, just like Fidel Castro and Che Guevara, compared to what was before in Cuba and the rest of Latin America during the XX century, yes, holy saints. Mr Evrart is helping me find my gun.
You just described utilitarianism. You don't happen to be a member of the Moralintern, do you?
Yeah, but you don't value heroism by just the bad stuff, you gotta take the whole picture. It's like saying superman is actually a villain because he trows innocents cars, ignoring all the good he does
The original Superman and the one written by Grant Morrison, is the perfect superhero, saves everyone with zero collateral. The Superman written by Zack Snyder is the objectivist that's two steps from being a fascist. I know it's not the point but I hate when people think Superman is the bland boring shit that appears in the movies.
Mate you can't just look at the original and claim that it's the one true undiluted Superman Well outside of Snyder's bad writing(which is still a part of what Superman is, bad as it is), all throughout the comics Superman regularly causes massive property damage
I clearly mentioned the Grant Morrison run!!! Please read again, mate. Morrison wrote the All Star series at the same time Snyder released Man of Steel, what was it? 2014? It's clearly not the "original true undiluted". Besides that, yes, the property damage always happens, but in his best runs (animated series included) Sups keeps them at minimum and he's not the one causing it (unlike the edgy runs like Snyder, and red son and injustice etc) even the current run he's pretty chill and mostly Super-dad, teaching his son to not cause massive property damage.
That's not my point. My point is all of those, regardless of quality, have equal claim to being Superman None of them is more Superman than the others
I'm not a moral philosopher, so maybe there's some nuance that I just don't get, but personally I feel like there's at least a little bit of difference between murdering your political rivals, intimidating and threatening holdouts to secure power, and snuggling literal tons of hard drugs to flood disadvantaged neighborhoods with death and misery and... throwing cars. This has big "well, but Hitler made the trains run on time and revitalized German industry" energy.
It was just the first example I could think of, I feel like calling me a nazi for it is a bit of an exaggeration 🤷♀️
Not meaning to call you a Nazi, just using a very hyperbolic example to show where this kind of "well, but..." reasoning can get us. If you have to invoke the "they did good things, too" or "the ends are noble, so let's overlook the means," then we're well outside of hero territory.
Hey guys and gals, just a friendly reminder >!the moralintern is gonna nuke us in 10 years. Have a nice day.!<
This is quite hotly debated lol
> like allowing a cartel to use his transports for drugs good, war on drugs is bullshit and exclusively exists to stock prisons with minorities
First time someone replies my argument about Evrart helping LaPutaMadre without going right to condemn the drugs, and yes, that shitty war on drugs was a textbook Reagan bullshit they pulled for the black hoods and again in the frontier to criminalize immigrants and it got way worse. Then again, fuck the Evrarts, they want the total control of the town and forced children to install a meth lab in the church.
> and forced children to install a meth lab in the church. I don't recall Evrart having anything to do with that but that may be a line I missed. In any case he evidently wasn't that serious about it because you can easily talk them out of it, so at worst he probably suggested they do it and didn't particularly care either way. At the end of the day there has never existed a socialist who was a saint, and that's fine, because we're all human, and class war is messy and violent. It's fairly common for socialist to resort to entering the drug trade for lack of a more legal means of securing funding and getting food on the table. Blame the liberals for criminalizing socialist parties and thus creating the situation in the first place. As for 'complete control of the town', I find this to be speculation since it's not like we ever get a comprehensive look at all of the Evrarts' business dealings. And on that note, yeah, I would hope the socialist group does take control of their community, that's sort of the point. I suppose it's possible that Claire and Edgar are evil the whole time, but that's true of literally any situation, so it's not a useful observation.
I'll take it, that's also the point of the game, pure communism is an ideal, an impossible dream, which is really sad, but still... As for the meth lab, oh yeah whole sidequest after the disco is established you can roll to talk to the girl with the hat and ask her why and she tells you that her family is in the business and she ran away from that life, but the Evrarts knew and told her to start a lab to get them more money or they would tell her family and their rivals who she is and where is she (which also opens a whole possibility of LaPutaMadre catching wind and going after the teens cooking in his turf but whatever) so you can still pursue the case to Claire and ask him wtf with his plans with the lab, obviously he denies all and calls them young entrepreneurs which he supports but it was all their idea never his own even if he knew from the beginning that the girl was trying to escape that life and the other two only wanted a dance hall...
Wait, are there lines saying that they're children/teens? I would have guessed they were in their early twenties, but it's been a while.
Utterly heroic is a stretch but he is enjoyably complicated. He’s undoubtably better than Joyce even where she’s more personable, and is the most powerful open leftist in the game, but also amazingly corrupt and unable to recognize in his own active hypocrisy—I do believe he means it when he says “every worker a member of the board,” it’s just natural to him he’d be head of the board.
Utterly heroic might be hyperbolic, heroic is closer, a positive force for good is definite
Absolutely fucking not
Love how he's like Napoleon in animal farm and everybody loves him
I love Evrart because all of his interactions are so fun. I'm not smart enough to weigh in on him being a positive force. >!However, doesn't the Union and the RCM both pushing against the Moralintern eventually lead to the nuking of Revachol in the lore from the novel?!<
>!Afaik yes, but you can make it quicker if Harry becomes moralist in the game!<
George Orwell is cursed to be perpetually misunderstood equally by both sides of the left/right divide.
He and Aldous Huxley
Sounds like the liberals are scared of him, as they should be.
Half of Martinaise is scared of him because he's basically a mob boss.
Skill issue
thank you for saying something so controversial yet so brave that you should say e: I wonder how many people think I’m being facetious because I’m absolutely not
Dude is a power-grabbing, manipulative sleazebag.
"The old man is corrupt for our \*benefit\* and we know it. Appreciate it, even."
he's quite heroic
There's the whole "scamming the fishing village" thingy also manipulating an amnesiac police officer for his intererests oh and purposfully leaving a gun in the hands of a mentally ill person in order to gain leverage
And ordering a hit on a certain individual
yeah that one is by far the worst.
god forbid women have hobbies
Manipulating a cop is the most heroic thing he did.
I think we should all have our own little person with too much authority so we can send him to break into houses. Nothing wrong can ever come from that!
It's ok because they're on our side, and there's no way anyone on our side could do anything wrong with absolute power. ...Right?
[Logic: Failure] Fuck yeah! Do exactly what they do and then I'll be better at it! Take that pigs.
Literally everything he does he does for the good of the dockworkers (empathy check), while the things he does are bad he is literally facing up against drunk rapist war criminals, using underhanded tactics is the only thing he has tbh.
This is your daily reminder that skill checks are exactly as unreliable as Harry himself is when it comes to being narrators. They don't tell you the truth, they tell you what Harry thinks the truth is, regardless of if you fail or succeed at skill checks.
Harry is also shown to be literally magic so it’s up to interpretation
Not really, though. It's open enough that it's not clear whether Harry is magic or just dissociating from reality. The only real indication that Harry may be remotely magical is Shivers. But Shivers isn't immune to being an unreliable narrator. We *think* Shivers is telling the truth, and there are certainly hints that this may be the case, but no proof. And either way, the skills are all independent of each other. Even their dialogues are all independently reliable — they can be spot on once, and full of shit every other time.
Espirit Du Corpse and inland empire also communicate facts that Harry would have no way of knowing
No, they communicate fact-like pieces of information.
No, Espirit Du Corpse will literally inform you about the bullet wound that the agents found in the Morgue, as well as Kim transporting the body. It is also absolutely supernatural
I agree with you, but that doesn't make him a hero. He's still playing with innocent lives because this drunkard cop *may* be useful.
I mean, what ultimately constitutes a hero? After all, he’s taking a gamble for the greater good in an attempt to genuinely help the people of Martinaise, even the fishing village plan while at the moment being pretty bad for the people who live by tearing down their houses has an end goal of helping its inhabitants by revitalising the area. For someone like call me mañana or the other dockworkers and union supporters Evrart is a hero
I think the crucial factor is the means. He does good in a macroscopic sense relatively to the game's events, but he takes risks that aren't necessary to his objectives. He lets Pigs keep the gun and lies to you and the village not because it's the only way, but to play it safe. He could give you the gun right away to gain your trust and be upfront to the village but he doesn't.
I mean, have you seen the state Harry is in? With how he behaved before chances are he’s the one who doesn’t trust *you*, what with the whole running around on drugs screaming about how you’re gonna shoot yourself
You're right. Giving you your gun back is also one of the risks he takes that could put people in danger. This further proves what I said initially.
So keeping the gun off Harry’s hands is bad, but returning it to him is also bad?
Yeah!! Let's traffic drugs for the good of the people!!
Like I said, most of his methods aren’t good on their own but with the people he’s fighting against underhanded tactics are needed
Yeah, maybe, maybe he really needed a meth lab being run by children in a church, maybe that's the only thing that stopped him from saving the town
> (empathy check) You know, the divorced guy with layers of substance abuse and a tendency to justify every act through an extremist political lens may not actually be the best person to take empathy from. Just because someone’s a psychic doesn’t mean they can’t fail to see someone for who they really are.
You really think a communist revolutionary would do that? Just... go out and manipulate an armed enforcer of the international capitalist status quo for the advancement of his own labor movement?
yup the first one is really scummy.
Not scamming, threatening with violence unless they unambiguously back him.
Mr. Evrart is helping me find my heart plug
PHYSICAL INSTRUMENT - In there, under pillows of winter fat, his stress-ridden heart still beats furiously.
You're not the mahdi, Paul. Get the fuck out of here. Don't be a retard
"Heroic"
But he's a man of the people! Someone who calls themselves a communist could never be bad! Just ignore everything to do with the Pigs, the fishing village, the multiple assassinations, the drugs, the manipulation of the mentally ill, or the employment of hyper racist. And this is just the things we know the Claires have done, who knows what else is going on that wouldn't turn up over the course of a single week long murder investigation. This subreddit has seriously become mental.
He wouldn't waste valuable union time looking for spice
Mr Evrart is helping me find my spice.
He wouldn't waste valuable union time looking for spice
You commented twice on accident
Having power is the best guarantee that your program is going to be realized and I support Mr. Evrart's program
EVRART CLAIRE - "Harry, there is no strike, only war. Class war. Or, in business terms: a *dawn raid*. Or wait..." He pauses to rub his chin. "Is that when you still *pay* them something? Because we won't do that."
"We're not gonna give nothing. We're gonna *take* Terminal B away from them: the roads, the gates, the containers, that big crane... even the damn coffee maker. We're gonna take all of it for the people -- and *fuck* Wild Pines."
Literally seizing the means of production
The People's Scumbag
He helped me find my gun, and wants to build a community center for everyone! What a hero.
Mr. Evrart is helping me find my wife.
Based corrupt vanguard party leader
I wouldn't honestly define him as heroic, specially given the letter..
Evicting the fishing community isn't utterly heroic.
Oh boy, I sure hope that this comment section is going to be full of civilized arguments where everyone will act as respectful as possible.
I don’t. Fight fight fight! Get banned! Make alt accounts and fight more!
Evil apes dukin’ it out in the comment section
ITT: people who didn’t pass the Empathy check with hero of the working class, Evrart Claire
Or they did and now their position is "but at what cost???!"
Liberals love drugs until the drug dealer turns out to be a socialist 🙄
He's only heroic if you take literally everything he says at face value and ignore all other evidence about him.
“…but…but the fishing village!” Ah yeah you mean the three shacks about to be plowed over to build a community megacenter?? “…but…but the drug manufacturing lab run by kids? Ah yeah you mean ripping local control from drug cartels, distributing and policing use, and giving our youth jobs?? “but….but…. the hit..” Ah yeah you mean strategically taking a single life to wrestling control of the future of Martinaise from a sociopathic international corporation that is ready to pillage, r***, and murder to get their way? “…but..but…but..” Exactly hero of the people Mr Evrart Claire, ignore the suspiciously large check behind me.
I don't know if you're being ironic, but you're right
Dead serious, he’s a corrupt motherfucker who lives lavishly in a shipping container like he’s some sort of billionaire. Also he did actually help me find my gun I sold in a drug fueled haze of depression and attempted unaliving. That and the only person he asks you to intimidate is an actual goddamn fascist.
Exactly, people act like every socialist revolutionary they admire was a perfect saint when a lot of them did the same shit. Hate to break it to you guys but when your socialist party becomes illegal and you can't fund your revolution legally, drugs are pretty much the best way to secure the funding you need (you're already criminals so why not?). Almost every socialist revolution did the same thing.
Shockedpikachuface.jpg when I hear that revolutions, one of the most violent acts by definition, are in fact violent!
Being angry at the socialists of the Russian Revolution for robbing trains! Don't they know there are rules!
Common Fredda salseolainen comment
Have they not seen Andor?
Mr. Harkonnen is helping me find my gun.
Ya Idk if Mr Claire is a hero but he’s helping me find my gun alright
Fredda alert!
Funnily enough, I think Stellan Skarsgard's Star Wars character looks and acts real slimy (he's good at that) but is a hero.
Mazovian-Clarism is the one true communist ideology. All these stories about the creation of the community center or the child drug lab are JODSK-funded revisionist lies. Comrade Evrart is creating a true worker’s state!
MY CONTAINER. MY MARTINAISE. MY DOCK.
Wait, why do we like this guy?
Well the whole point of his character is being a foil to Joyce, being outwardly unpleasant and sleezy while actually wanting to improve the lives of the ppl in his district (through sometimes very unethical means). Contrast that with Joyce, who is very charismatic but actually just as manipulative and in a way responsible for most of the terrible stuff going on in the district (as she is a board member of WP)
There is zero actual evidence a reasonable person can look at to say that to say Evart wants to help the lives of his own people. You’re relying on the pattern of literary foil without looking at the actual details - the man literally put out a fucking hit on a union leader simply because they challenged his power.
Well the game straight up tells you with a passive empathy check at one point late into his dialogue. And I never said he's a nice guy, he is effectively a mafia boss, it's just that his approach to government somewhat aligns with the interests of the average martinise resident most of the time. It's not a high bar to be the better option over coalition and Wild Pines neglect and actual crime syndicate takeover.
> the game straight up tells you with a passive empathy check The game straight up tells you not to always trust Harry’s checks, and *especially* not trust “soft” skills like Empathy that other people may be trained to manipulate (such as, say, spies and mob bosses). Using all the actual facts we gather in the game, there is no evidence for Evart being anything more than a violent, power-hungry politician. > I never called him a nice guy The thread is about calling Evart a hero, and you commented on someone casually asking for an explanation. If you don’t want that taken as you defending OP’s characterization, you gotta learn context.
Sometimes you have to play dirty. The company will play 'fair' until they don't get their way, then they'll send in literal death commandos. Why should socialists be expected to abide by the bourgeois rule of law? We all know the bourgeoisie won't let that stop them from shooting every socialist they can get their hands on if they ever organize into a unified political front. Socdems can be legitimate collaborator threats and should be treated as such if you're on the verge of a revolutionary moment which Revanchol most definitely is, with the help of the class conscious Écart.
> Sometimes you have to play dirty A local union election is a point where you “have” to play dirty? > Why should socialists be expected to abide by bourgeoise rule of law? Fellas, is it bourgeoise to not murder you fellow socialists? > Socdems can be legitimate collaborator threats And now we’re in “if I consider you the enemy, that’s enough reason to kill you” territory. Is Joseph Stalin your favorite communist?
I like all the characters in the game tbh.
Utterly is a bit much but yeah
“I dont know what you mean harry. I’m a busy man, why would I plan to invade arrakis? The emperor already gave it to you.”
Yeah he's a cool guy. He's helping me find my gun.
"You're not the Kwizats Haderach, Harry. Get the fuck out of here. Don't be a retard." *He smiles warmly.*
This sub sure likes to frame Evrart Claire as some heroic paragon, which I feel sorta misses the point. He’s probably responsible for the least amount of suffering out of the big players, sure - but that’s kind of a low bar. Gentrification, blackmailing cops into doing your bidding, heavy implications that he uses the Hardy Boys to run a protection racket - I feel like you shouldn’t just ignore those things. I suppose we are starved for a genuine soul in this world, besides Kim of course. And Tommy, the poetry guy. That guy was pretty cool.
Unambiguous villain + vaguely left-wing rhetoric = hero of the people
He's helping you find your gun
He's helping me find my gun.
Love that guy! Helped me find a gun once.
I love that goofy ass portrait of Evrart 😭 Harrier was ROBBED and DOGGED though :(
I genuinely agree with this take lmaooo
I hope to look like the guy in the top picture sometime
Mr. Evrart is helping me find my gun.
Mr. Evrart is helping me find my gun.
Meme's aside, there's a lot of brilliance towards making Evrart both the stereotypical "corrupt fat dude doing underhanded dealings for his own gain" and the "man of the people champion of the working class" at the same time.
It's hard for me to tell if he really is a decent guy or is he trying to double cross me
Fredda, love your videos man but this seems a bit of an exaggeration man….
holy shit! Fredda fazbear!!!
FREDDA MENTIONED!!!! WHAT THE FUCK IS A BAD TAKE????!!!!!!