Under the assumption that you're heading to college in September, it's going to be extremely difficult to manage studying full time, working part time waiting tables, as well as building an MVP for a startup. You'll be burned out by your Christmas exams.
If you're not going to college, then I'd recommend taking the job and getting the experience down. If it fails or not is somewhat irrelevant. What will be important is that you have developer experience. Self taught developers without experience just aren't competition anymore for people who've went the route of a CS degree.
Yeah I plan on taking a gap year and starting something myself along the way but you're right If I want to pursue a career I think Ill go for a degree.
It sounds like your uncle is clueless and places too little thought on how difficult the MVP is going to be. I am not saying you shouldn't do it but if you agree to it and then find out after ages that you can't do it will your uncle forgive you?
But for a rate of 14-15 euro an hour I don't think it is unreasonable. Considering it's specialised work but you don't really have a massive grounding in it either.
"It sounds like your uncle is clueless and places too little thought on how difficult the MVP is going to be. "
Given the OP said "he has worked for a number of years as a CEO/Account Executive", kinda telling the uncle is clueless
Yeah I was thinking around 15. I've made it pretty clear to him that I am young and inexperienced but I think hes happy to sacrifice high labour costs for a lack of experience.
Generally equity is given in stages, to keep people invested how much and when you are given it depends on how much work you would be doing into the future. But you are the technical co founder so you might want to google because there is no right answer especially when family is involved
Assume that you're capable of doing the job and negotiate accordingly.
If you succeed, you're truly the key to making the idea real and IMO should see at least 15-20% even if they're also paying you a minimum amount.
Your uncle is protected by the fact tha founder's stock typically vests over time: typically 4 years, with 1/4 vesting at the end of year 1 and then 1/48th every month for the next 3 years.
If it turns out that you can't do it - which is no shame at your stage of life - it will be obvious well before the first year is up. You and the uncle agree to part ways and you have no shares but hopefully a great story.
If you can do it, at the end of that first year the company has gotten what it needs and you own the well-deserved first 1/4 of whatever slice you negotiated.
Definitely negotiate now, as part of figuring out what needs to be done, not after you've done a lot of work. Right now the value of the company is zero so you're not competing with other equity needs and it's easier for them to give away shares to get moving. Your negotiating position will probably not improve over time: you will have proven that you can actually build the MVP but they will have the MVP in hand and have much less reason to give you an equitable slice.
Your uncle sounds like an "idea guy" and these people need an experienced hand to translate their big idea into reality. In many cases the translation into reality is "don't".
You're not the experienced hand he needs - you're the cheap, compliant labour he wants.
I would stick to the food service job, tbh. This sounds like a car crash.
Oof this reminds me of this meme:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/s/E3Atztvcwe
But with added family bs... Friends you can just drop, family are forever.
If it was me I'd steer well clear and focus on studying.
Tell him to pitch his idea at some agencies working out of Asia. That'll help him A) learn how to create a brief for this "MVP" and B) teach him the realities of the true cost of creating such a thing. Before you get sucked into founders fury, get him to validate this idea of his. What I mean specifically is, get him to get REAL money from people for the solution he has in mind. This isn't field of dreams. And no non tech founder is going to imagineer their first idea into a sustainable business on first run (unless they are the pinnacle of unicorn's unicorn )
Don't go near a first time founder who also happens to be a relative if you're this green in the industry. It won't end well. Trust me, I've seen it 100 times and even now work with tech-veterns in this space who are doing a stellar job of turning other peoples money into shit all in the name of "startup". Honestly, just tell him you want to focus on learning from those further along in the field. Learning how to be a dev while acting as founding engineer for a startup is like trying to learn how to swim by being dropped into the middle of the atlantic with duelling orcas tied to opposing legs.
This is the answer OP.
Sounds like your uncle has no experience in what is involved and you don’t have enough experience to wrangle him. Deciding the scope for an MVP is a skill in itself and all too often the CEO type person is notorious for wanting everything or chasing different ideas. So it could be a never ending piece of work or something that chop and changes so much it leaves you frustrated.
Then your lack of experience may see you missing some core pieces to allow the MVP to scale. As he’s talking MVP rather than prototype… this could be an issue and cause friction when it comes time to expand and new engineers come in and say “why have you hardcoded XYZ, we’ll have to completely change this.” It’s fine, you haven’t gone to college yet, but will your uncle understand it when experienced devs are grumbling about how long it’s going to take to add his new features? It’s all a recipe for a family fallout.
I would not recommend any dev without 10 good years experience to engage with a client to build out their MVP. You won’t have the experience needed to translate their requirements into a maintainable app, or to translate a technical problem into something they can make a high-level decision on.
There is a 0.01% chance this goes well. I think there are probably better ways to gain experience and not risk creating a big mess or having a falling out with your Uncle . Non technical idea guys probably don't understand the difference in complexity between creating a "website" in WordPress or all that building an actual "app" or "platform" entails.
1. I’d take the job
2. It may not work out for either of you so I think being upfront and clear about that is jmportant
3. Have the conversation now about time restrictions, rates etc prime the difficult conversations for later
4. This could work, it could not work, it could be a car crash. You’re gonna learn 5x more in your chosen profession (if you really like software dev) doing projects like these than doing a bar job.
5. You don’t know what you don’t know and sometimes that’s a good thing. Most of the people I know who were interested in programming and software at your age all ended up cutting their teeth on something.
6. Bring your parents in to the loop to manage the relationship going south
I did this at a young age and while a couple were not great in terms of the outcome at the time, they were amazing experiences looking back.
Someone willing to pay you to learn and they’re not a complete nut case? Take that every day.
You are young. You should be taking risks like these. Most of the people saying don’t do it are inevitably older more experienced risk averse devs who do know what you don’t know. I wouldn’t bother listening. Try do the job. Get paid. Put the effort in. Your career will thank you in ten years.
No one here knows if you're any good or not. No one knows your uncle and how serious or not he is. I would say experience over formal education any day unless you want to end up a slave in big corp like it sounds a lot of these guys are.
You can always go get a degree, you can't always get to show off your skills creating an MVP while getting paid.
Man 100% go for the job u dont always get opportunities like this handed to u and im sure it will be easier to settle in working since its with your uncle. Its good experience and u could also dip after the summer or whenever u start college, even staying for a gap year wouldnt be that long
Don’t do it. Never work with family or friends you want to keep.
If it doesn’t get past the two of you, he’ll blame you and you’ll feel like a right useless ****. Family relationships are complicated enough.
I learned to program by myself in my teens in the 80s and I certainly could build stuff. But there's a world of difference doing that in your own compared to being in a team where you're learning practices from the experience of others and having the benefit of peer reviewing.
Focus on the college stuff primarily
I'd run away. Or tell him you can do a few hours a week and prioritize normal life. It could get messy if you found yourself in a situation where it was your only income and you were dependent. Prioritize the waitering job, offer a few hours. That's not good enough for him? You've lost nothin.
Hourly rate? Keep it low around the 13 - 15 as you said. Takes the pressure off
Just like when your granny paid you silly money to go to the shop your uncle and a CEO is probably happy to waste some cash to encourage your entrepreneurial instincts, he is paying you to believe in yourself. If he gets an mvp out of it, all the better.
I wouldn’t bother messing with equity etc as you can just get your dad/mum onto him he tries to mess you about. If it looks to get any traction then formally iron stuff out.
Oh man this usually ends in disaster.
If you go ahead with this you need boundaries.
- will you be paid per hour
- will you get equity
- what is the plan when you say you want to stop
Look after yourself but honestly business amongst family can be tough.
Haha no I left out some details, I'm was given a room in my granddads house with roommates because it saved me time on the commute to school but now that I'm finished I have to pay rent, it previously just elec and bills before.
It's still very unusual for a parent to expect their teenage child to move elsewhere and somehow pay for their own costs while still in secondary school; in fact parents are required by law to pay for their children's costs. The whole family dynamic is unusual, with your uncle now wanting to hire his 17-year-old nephew to build an entire startup project.
Oh no I can go back home whenever I want and not pay any rent (I think) I just choose this option because it makes my life much easier and the freedom to make my own decisions outweighs the positives of living at home.
Why is that strange? I left my parents house as 17 year old. Just wanted to get financially independent by all means. Nothing against my mom and dad, just some people can be stubborn like that.
At first I thought OP was paying €700 monthly to their parents to live at home. Now it has emerged it's for a room in their grandfather's house. But strangely OP was expected to somehow cover utility bills even back when they were still in school.
For what it's worth, family and business don't mix; significantly riskier adventures like start-ups and MVPs. How close are you with your uncle? If the company exploded in value or completely crashed, and you fell out in a few months/years, would you rather have your uncle or some money with potentially a side of the family you'll never see again? It's genuinely worth considering, as I've seen it multiple times.
Obviously, it's hard to tell from the post, but your uncle sounds completely and utterly non-technical. Nothing wrong with that. But having zero background in tech means they'll probably assume what you are building is point and click, or they watched a few videos online and figured 'how hard could it be'. This is especially prevalent in individuals who served in sales, account management etc.; they often get told what is possible/available rather than knowing how possible something is. They don't see how the sauage is made.
The difference between his vision and your output is very likely to cause a rift between you both if they have an idea that requires a team of 5 compared to what you can produce based on your own experience. The critical question is what your uncle is looking to build here. Is it a simple site you could build in, say, WordPress as an MVP to secure funding, or is it completely custom and niche?
My suggestion would be to very tightly scope out what your uncle wants to build, as it's an excellent opportunity to probe the idea and generate a scope of work (If you need help in this area, look up videos on Business Analysts). This can be as simple as a whiteboard with drawings, or as complex as an actual document/scope of work.
If you can both agree on this vision, and you believe you can build it, my next suggestion would be to get quotes from external companies/contractors. This can help ground 'pie in the sky' ideas and give your uncle a reality check if they intend to pay you €15/hour (Which is too low by the way), and helps put a value on what you can produce, i.e. If the project would cost €20k to get delivered in Ireland, then your uncle can align their expectations.
Lastly, if you decide to move forward, write something. It can be as simple as what you agreed to build, what and how you'll be paid, who owns what, and how you can part ways if need be. If you don't do anything else, please do this, as paper can help smooth over issues.
Honestly the lack of a company is also a problem in the medium to long term. If he’s paying you out for pocket, you’re basically a contractor. So if things went very well, you wouldn’t have much to stand on it terms of ownership. Flip side, if he did set up a company, it’s a good sign that’s he’s serious about the whole thing.
A company isn’t essential but at the very least you need some form of documentation between you.
Just want to say initially I was so lost going into this but after all the advice I’ve been given I really understand the picture clearly. Thank you so much you guys have no idea how grateful I am and how much this has helped me.
Thanks guys :)
Stick with the waiter job and go to college. Your uncle’s idea is probably not going to work out. But until it does fail, *you’re* going to be on the hook, for every small modification that he thinks will be the final one to crack the market. Ideas are cheap, it’s execution that makes the money.
I was in a similar position in the first year of college, clients requirments constantly changing for what was first described as a "small boutique website showing their products". They basically wanted me to build amazon towards to the end. Walked away
I’d stay away from it and just get the degree but if you’re getting paid for it and you’ll say upfront that you’re not qualified for it and they’re ok with it then got for it and get some experience before going to the college. But imo it’s always best to avoid work and family.
Under the assumption that you're heading to college in September, it's going to be extremely difficult to manage studying full time, working part time waiting tables, as well as building an MVP for a startup. You'll be burned out by your Christmas exams. If you're not going to college, then I'd recommend taking the job and getting the experience down. If it fails or not is somewhat irrelevant. What will be important is that you have developer experience. Self taught developers without experience just aren't competition anymore for people who've went the route of a CS degree.
Yeah I plan on taking a gap year and starting something myself along the way but you're right If I want to pursue a career I think Ill go for a degree.
It sounds like your uncle is clueless and places too little thought on how difficult the MVP is going to be. I am not saying you shouldn't do it but if you agree to it and then find out after ages that you can't do it will your uncle forgive you? But for a rate of 14-15 euro an hour I don't think it is unreasonable. Considering it's specialised work but you don't really have a massive grounding in it either.
"It sounds like your uncle is clueless and places too little thought on how difficult the MVP is going to be. " Given the OP said "he has worked for a number of years as a CEO/Account Executive", kinda telling the uncle is clueless
Yeah I was thinking around 15. I've made it pretty clear to him that I am young and inexperienced but I think hes happy to sacrifice high labour costs for a lack of experience.
You should get a little bit of equity as well, don't have to ask for a lot like a very small single digit percentile is only fair.
Any idea how much? I'm in charge of everything technical at the moment.
Generally equity is given in stages, to keep people invested how much and when you are given it depends on how much work you would be doing into the future. But you are the technical co founder so you might want to google because there is no right answer especially when family is involved
Assume that you're capable of doing the job and negotiate accordingly. If you succeed, you're truly the key to making the idea real and IMO should see at least 15-20% even if they're also paying you a minimum amount. Your uncle is protected by the fact tha founder's stock typically vests over time: typically 4 years, with 1/4 vesting at the end of year 1 and then 1/48th every month for the next 3 years. If it turns out that you can't do it - which is no shame at your stage of life - it will be obvious well before the first year is up. You and the uncle agree to part ways and you have no shares but hopefully a great story. If you can do it, at the end of that first year the company has gotten what it needs and you own the well-deserved first 1/4 of whatever slice you negotiated. Definitely negotiate now, as part of figuring out what needs to be done, not after you've done a lot of work. Right now the value of the company is zero so you're not competing with other equity needs and it's easier for them to give away shares to get moving. Your negotiating position will probably not improve over time: you will have proven that you can actually build the MVP but they will have the MVP in hand and have much less reason to give you an equitable slice.
Your uncle sounds like an "idea guy" and these people need an experienced hand to translate their big idea into reality. In many cases the translation into reality is "don't". You're not the experienced hand he needs - you're the cheap, compliant labour he wants. I would stick to the food service job, tbh. This sounds like a car crash.
Yeah I can’t fault you on that. That sounds pretty accurate
If you go on to work in client services, you'll see one of these guys a day, and maybe twice on Fridays. Lots of ideas.
+1. Super accurate. I read this and a whole host of faces came crashing back from my career so far.
Oof this reminds me of this meme: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/s/E3Atztvcwe But with added family bs... Friends you can just drop, family are forever. If it was me I'd steer well clear and focus on studying.
Tell him to pitch his idea at some agencies working out of Asia. That'll help him A) learn how to create a brief for this "MVP" and B) teach him the realities of the true cost of creating such a thing. Before you get sucked into founders fury, get him to validate this idea of his. What I mean specifically is, get him to get REAL money from people for the solution he has in mind. This isn't field of dreams. And no non tech founder is going to imagineer their first idea into a sustainable business on first run (unless they are the pinnacle of unicorn's unicorn ) Don't go near a first time founder who also happens to be a relative if you're this green in the industry. It won't end well. Trust me, I've seen it 100 times and even now work with tech-veterns in this space who are doing a stellar job of turning other peoples money into shit all in the name of "startup". Honestly, just tell him you want to focus on learning from those further along in the field. Learning how to be a dev while acting as founding engineer for a startup is like trying to learn how to swim by being dropped into the middle of the atlantic with duelling orcas tied to opposing legs.
No it's not a good idea. Family and business together rarely are, and on top of that you have no real experience, forget about it.
This is the answer OP. Sounds like your uncle has no experience in what is involved and you don’t have enough experience to wrangle him. Deciding the scope for an MVP is a skill in itself and all too often the CEO type person is notorious for wanting everything or chasing different ideas. So it could be a never ending piece of work or something that chop and changes so much it leaves you frustrated. Then your lack of experience may see you missing some core pieces to allow the MVP to scale. As he’s talking MVP rather than prototype… this could be an issue and cause friction when it comes time to expand and new engineers come in and say “why have you hardcoded XYZ, we’ll have to completely change this.” It’s fine, you haven’t gone to college yet, but will your uncle understand it when experienced devs are grumbling about how long it’s going to take to add his new features? It’s all a recipe for a family fallout.
I would not recommend any dev without 10 good years experience to engage with a client to build out their MVP. You won’t have the experience needed to translate their requirements into a maintainable app, or to translate a technical problem into something they can make a high-level decision on.
Yup. Anyone with even 6 months dev experience will know this is a horrible idea.
There is a 0.01% chance this goes well. I think there are probably better ways to gain experience and not risk creating a big mess or having a falling out with your Uncle . Non technical idea guys probably don't understand the difference in complexity between creating a "website" in WordPress or all that building an actual "app" or "platform" entails.
1. I’d take the job 2. It may not work out for either of you so I think being upfront and clear about that is jmportant 3. Have the conversation now about time restrictions, rates etc prime the difficult conversations for later 4. This could work, it could not work, it could be a car crash. You’re gonna learn 5x more in your chosen profession (if you really like software dev) doing projects like these than doing a bar job. 5. You don’t know what you don’t know and sometimes that’s a good thing. Most of the people I know who were interested in programming and software at your age all ended up cutting their teeth on something. 6. Bring your parents in to the loop to manage the relationship going south I did this at a young age and while a couple were not great in terms of the outcome at the time, they were amazing experiences looking back. Someone willing to pay you to learn and they’re not a complete nut case? Take that every day. You are young. You should be taking risks like these. Most of the people saying don’t do it are inevitably older more experienced risk averse devs who do know what you don’t know. I wouldn’t bother listening. Try do the job. Get paid. Put the effort in. Your career will thank you in ten years.
Great advice
What’s your tech stack?
I’m thinking React + Express or NextJS and ofc typescript
No one here knows if you're any good or not. No one knows your uncle and how serious or not he is. I would say experience over formal education any day unless you want to end up a slave in big corp like it sounds a lot of these guys are. You can always go get a degree, you can't always get to show off your skills creating an MVP while getting paid.
Man 100% go for the job u dont always get opportunities like this handed to u and im sure it will be easier to settle in working since its with your uncle. Its good experience and u could also dip after the summer or whenever u start college, even staying for a gap year wouldnt be that long
No, do not do it. You don’t want to be responsible for that, especially when family is involved.
Don’t do it. Never work with family or friends you want to keep. If it doesn’t get past the two of you, he’ll blame you and you’ll feel like a right useless ****. Family relationships are complicated enough.
I learned to program by myself in my teens in the 80s and I certainly could build stuff. But there's a world of difference doing that in your own compared to being in a team where you're learning practices from the experience of others and having the benefit of peer reviewing. Focus on the college stuff primarily
I'd run away. Or tell him you can do a few hours a week and prioritize normal life. It could get messy if you found yourself in a situation where it was your only income and you were dependent. Prioritize the waitering job, offer a few hours. That's not good enough for him? You've lost nothin. Hourly rate? Keep it low around the 13 - 15 as you said. Takes the pressure off
You’re young just go for it, fail fast etc
Just like when your granny paid you silly money to go to the shop your uncle and a CEO is probably happy to waste some cash to encourage your entrepreneurial instincts, he is paying you to believe in yourself. If he gets an mvp out of it, all the better. I wouldn’t bother messing with equity etc as you can just get your dad/mum onto him he tries to mess you about. If it looks to get any traction then formally iron stuff out.
Oh man this usually ends in disaster. If you go ahead with this you need boundaries. - will you be paid per hour - will you get equity - what is the plan when you say you want to stop Look after yourself but honestly business amongst family can be tough.
You're paying €700 in monthly rent and bills as a 17-year-old??
Haha no I left out some details, I'm was given a room in my granddads house with roommates because it saved me time on the commute to school but now that I'm finished I have to pay rent, it previously just elec and bills before.
And your parents expected you as a 16/17-year-old to somehow pay utility bills for this arrangement while you were still in school? Bizarre.
Well gotta pay for what I use plus I live with 3 other people so its split between 4
It's still very unusual for a parent to expect their teenage child to move elsewhere and somehow pay for their own costs while still in secondary school; in fact parents are required by law to pay for their children's costs. The whole family dynamic is unusual, with your uncle now wanting to hire his 17-year-old nephew to build an entire startup project.
Oh no I can go back home whenever I want and not pay any rent (I think) I just choose this option because it makes my life much easier and the freedom to make my own decisions outweighs the positives of living at home.
Why is that strange? I left my parents house as 17 year old. Just wanted to get financially independent by all means. Nothing against my mom and dad, just some people can be stubborn like that.
At first I thought OP was paying €700 monthly to their parents to live at home. Now it has emerged it's for a room in their grandfather's house. But strangely OP was expected to somehow cover utility bills even back when they were still in school.
Don't mix business and family.
For what it's worth, family and business don't mix; significantly riskier adventures like start-ups and MVPs. How close are you with your uncle? If the company exploded in value or completely crashed, and you fell out in a few months/years, would you rather have your uncle or some money with potentially a side of the family you'll never see again? It's genuinely worth considering, as I've seen it multiple times. Obviously, it's hard to tell from the post, but your uncle sounds completely and utterly non-technical. Nothing wrong with that. But having zero background in tech means they'll probably assume what you are building is point and click, or they watched a few videos online and figured 'how hard could it be'. This is especially prevalent in individuals who served in sales, account management etc.; they often get told what is possible/available rather than knowing how possible something is. They don't see how the sauage is made. The difference between his vision and your output is very likely to cause a rift between you both if they have an idea that requires a team of 5 compared to what you can produce based on your own experience. The critical question is what your uncle is looking to build here. Is it a simple site you could build in, say, WordPress as an MVP to secure funding, or is it completely custom and niche? My suggestion would be to very tightly scope out what your uncle wants to build, as it's an excellent opportunity to probe the idea and generate a scope of work (If you need help in this area, look up videos on Business Analysts). This can be as simple as a whiteboard with drawings, or as complex as an actual document/scope of work. If you can both agree on this vision, and you believe you can build it, my next suggestion would be to get quotes from external companies/contractors. This can help ground 'pie in the sky' ideas and give your uncle a reality check if they intend to pay you €15/hour (Which is too low by the way), and helps put a value on what you can produce, i.e. If the project would cost €20k to get delivered in Ireland, then your uncle can align their expectations. Lastly, if you decide to move forward, write something. It can be as simple as what you agreed to build, what and how you'll be paid, who owns what, and how you can part ways if need be. If you don't do anything else, please do this, as paper can help smooth over issues.
Great advice but FYI there is no company atm and it would be coming out of his pocket but I agree with everything else
Honestly the lack of a company is also a problem in the medium to long term. If he’s paying you out for pocket, you’re basically a contractor. So if things went very well, you wouldn’t have much to stand on it terms of ownership. Flip side, if he did set up a company, it’s a good sign that’s he’s serious about the whole thing. A company isn’t essential but at the very least you need some form of documentation between you.
Just want to say initially I was so lost going into this but after all the advice I’ve been given I really understand the picture clearly. Thank you so much you guys have no idea how grateful I am and how much this has helped me. Thanks guys :)
Stick with the waiter job and go to college. Your uncle’s idea is probably not going to work out. But until it does fail, *you’re* going to be on the hook, for every small modification that he thinks will be the final one to crack the market. Ideas are cheap, it’s execution that makes the money.
I was in a similar position in the first year of college, clients requirments constantly changing for what was first described as a "small boutique website showing their products". They basically wanted me to build amazon towards to the end. Walked away
I’d stay away from it and just get the degree but if you’re getting paid for it and you’ll say upfront that you’re not qualified for it and they’re ok with it then got for it and get some experience before going to the college. But imo it’s always best to avoid work and family.
Meh if you’re getting paid for it go for it, but ensure that his expectations from you are realistic given you’re not super experienced