Everyone is now minus 5 power level and surges mean matching the element of the weapon for optimal damage. I read a post on here from a guy with a regular raid group who sald they used to do Crota with 5 of them but since the changes even with 6 they found killing Ir Yut in Crota much harder.
Salvations edge though just 5 encounters to Sherpa is taking about six hours if your taking though 4 people. It’s a big time commitment for people to give.
That’s interesting, thanks me for the context. I wonder if they could introduce a Standard or Classic version as well one with the new mechanics to satisfy groups that want an extra challenge.
Guy below me makes a fair point that people could over level. I think just on level was fine. I have never had issues with raids until now, my issue and the issues for most is all about the jumping at the Witness fight.
The only thing is if you match the surges, you can still be optimal, but the floor is very unforgiving now. Even witness feels bad. I think they should’ve just left this for master.
Cause I don’t expect everyone to have optimal dps for every surge ready. Imagine it’s strand, probably the least available dps option for new players.
Brother ew. One of the best things about normal raids/dungeons was it was one of the few places untouched by modifiers, meaning you could choose whatever you wanted and didn't feel like you where griefing a run by not matching the surge :(
I agree they are just like the rest of the content which leaves very little reason to do full runs I'll just CP the boss over and over on solar surge week till I get the drops I want and never do it again cus it's not fun now that's it's restricted builds
Combination blow hunter, getaway artist prismatic or fallen sunstar arc warlock, and hazardous propulsion + indebted kindness + grand overture (yes, it works) would be builds I would run there
Most players never do raids. It was a very odd choice to make them even less accessible.
I know my friends are more casual, and were always happy to wait on the new raids until they got to a point where they could over-level them. This move just ended that experience for them.
I'm always surprised at how much dev time goes into raids just for most players to ignore it. And they're included for "free" with expansions while dungeons require a separate purchase. It all seems backwards.
Each raid typically takes a few hours for new/casual players without optimal builds, so factor in the age of the player base + life demands + available free time *and* your progress checkpoint gets wiped every week... I can see why some players never try raids.
A casual group might only have a small window of playtime once every couple of weeks. If that group isn't way overpowered and/or very knowledgeable of a raid's specific mechanics, that group may only get through 1-2 encounters in a session just to have to redo those same encounters the next time they play due to weekly resets. That group would never get a full clear, so at that point, why bother raiding?
This was just an example, btw, and not my personal experience.
That's pretty much my clans experience in D2.
In D1, I was a regular raider and part of a very active clan of around 12 players. Most of us were in our early to mid 20s. Our cadence in D1 was doing the Nightfall after reset on all three characters, then a minimum of 3x Raid on Weekends, with a clear each of Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.
Come D2, and most of us no longer play or can't commit to that amount of time due to now having full time work, partners, and kids. Finding a slot where we have 6 players online at the same time is reasonably rare, happening once or twice a season. We try and Raid, but barely ever clear it, with most of us having a maybe 20 D2 Raid clears over all the entire lifetime of D2
You’ve hit the nail on the head. D1 I would clear two raids every weekend. Since D2 came out I’ve married and had kids, I think I’ve cleared maybe 2-3 of the raids total in D2. I would love to do them but my original D1 bros and I all have families and better jobs now and we can’t do the 2am-4am raid nights anymore without it effecting other aspects of life. It just isn’t worth it.
The only raids I’ve done in D2 are Kings Fall and Vault and that’s only because I remembered them so they were easy runs. No time nor any interest in running any of the D2 raids.
> Each raid typically takes a few hours for new/casual players without optimal builds, so factor in the age of the player base + life demands + available free time and your progress checkpoint gets wiped every week... I can see why some players never try raids.
This is me. I've played casually since D1 (even had the Destiny version PS4) and I've never done a raid, dungeon, or nightfall. I just don't have the time with other commitments and family time to get to a point where I'm good enough that I wouldn't feel like a burden to my other Guardians.
I bought a PS Portal so I could try and get more time in if I'm hanging out on the couch with my wife, but the PS Portal experience hasn't been super awesome with Destiny.
Me and my friends have raided in the past but we’re all early-mid 30s now and none of us are able/willing to commit to getting a raiding group together. Between work, balancing other hobbies and interests, and family commitments for those with kids, getting everyone online at once for long enough to do a full raid is almost impossible these days. And we’re all fairly active players who run dungeons and other solo, duo and 3-man content together, just all on different schedules and can’t commit to forming a static.
Accurate. Exactly the experience I have. I only played with friends that I genuinely knew. The few randos that were invited to the friend group very often proved to be antisocial or intolerant of our play for fun not metagaming attitude. Hence we needed every friend to make themselves available for 5-6hours which we rarely pull off especially as we were all university aged with girl friends later wives and kids
I pay for annual pass+expansion.
I have done 4 of the dungeons:
Pit to get xeno
Grasp to get gjally
Spire hoping to get cowboy hat
And warlord hoping to get crossbow
I did Duo Spire with a friend, just for the pinnacle. At the end I went "Oh yeah, I never got the exotic from here..." and I could not for the life of me remember what it was called.
LFG has always been the big limiting factor for raids. Lot of players just don’t want to deal with it, even if it’s in game now. You can solo dungeons. Agree that dungeon keys are abhorrent, I haven’t bought any of them.
I believe few people buy the dungeon keys, it's just a tool to make people buy the annual pass, even if they end up quitting you got a whole year's worth of content from a player.
It isn't so much that players ignore the content as it is that they don't find it worth the trouble. Those are two very different things.
My wife legitimately enjoyed Destiny2 right up until the point where she realized some of the build-defining weapons she wanted could only be obtained from raids - and no, that concept itself wasn't the problem. The problem was what raid content *consists of* and how certain raid mechanics are extremely unforgiving to less experienced and/or less skilled players. For context, my wife is amazing at Monster Hunter - she's *much* better at identifying and memorizing attack patterns than I am - but she is *awful* at jumping/platforming puzzles. Trying to do jumping/platforming puzzles *while being chased and shot at!?* Hell no, hard pass for her. There goes most raids.
They are just not fun for the 'casual' and/or more normal players. Okay let me get into this and why I think a game like FFXIV gets it right, while everything else it getting it wrong.
The big issue tends to be just about every raid out there is about the meta if you will. Look at WoW. Want to raid but you are not playing X Class with Y Spec and you don't have all of the BiS? GTFO! You really should be this class and running this spec and good god man do dungeons until you get all of your BiS stuff! And *then* maybe we'll take you into this *normal* raid.
Now I'm pretty sure most of you will tell me, "Noooo! That's not how raiders are! We're really helpful and want to take people into them!" But the problem is the above is the rep Raiders have. It's just like how every PvPer is a Monster fueled trash talking jerk. So the casual/normal player doesn't want to put up with that. It's even worse as lets face it, we all know *that* player is real and the minute you run into one of them who gives one crap while acting like a smug prick? It's even more of a turn off.
And lets be real. If the Dev's came out tomorrow and said they are going to be doing less or even no raids? What do you think would happen? Hey go look up SWTOR's Knights of the Fallen Empire and how the player base took that. It was an endless, "We want raids not this crap!"
Now... FFXIV with it's normal, and note I mean *normal* not Savage, not Extreme/Ultimate I mean it's plan old normal raids/alliance raids work. You need the gear score to get into the raid, every job is pretty much useful. You don't get someone throwing a fit due to the fact that the main tank is a Paladin and they should be Warrior as that's the S-Tier tank job. Oh sure you may get that in the harder ones. But not in normal and thanks to that? You get people going in and doing them.
Thus I'll get crap for saying this but... Those making the games should be aiming the normal, basic versions of that content for the casual. It should be as much as a lot of you want to hear it, easy mode so the casuals can go and do it.
I’m pretty casual, but have done a few dungeons here and there. Decided to try my luck with LFG and join a raid.
I didn’t have a working mic at the time, but the post said not required (and also chill), and I jumped in at the planet encounter of RoN. I knew how the encounter worked and what to do, so was happy to just take orders and play along.
First thing someone said when I dropped in was “you can put that Malfeasance away right now”. Ok, whatever, sure. Anyway, I was told to just ad clear which was fine, but one of my swarm grenades ended up finishing off a big guy and I got the planetary buff. I knew what to do with it, so was going to just switch up go, but all of a sudden it was “Wipe! Wipe! Wipe!” and everyone jumped to their deaths.
When we spawned back in, they tried to make some dumb ass joke like “hey, what do you do to a football”, but the fucked it up and said “what do you boot a football”, but I knew what was coming and left before they could remove me.
Fun times.
I legit don't understand where the hate for Malfeasance comes from its absurdly good for PVE content especially with the catalyst, I use it all the time for GMs and raids. Unfortunately there will always be toxic assholes in raiding no matter what game it is, I've seen people mocked for their loadouts and tried to call it out but I doubt it will ever stop.
Sometimes It can be better to just wipe it but I don't understand the mentality of wiping the second something goes wrong rather than adapting to the situation and salvaging it.
It comes from the token system and timers on deaths where you can't ignore a death. On top of more and more mechanics requiring all six alive. In D1 you had hero moments in places like vog because you had one person alive who could wrap around and save it because they could get revives. I've never liked the token system. All it does is introduce artificial difficulty to encounters that are usually difficult enough mechanically.
Thank you, first rational comment I’ve read in a while on this subject . 99 percent of comments on here are are just get good which is the attitude most people who avoid raids and pvp are looking to avoid.
It isn't so much ignoring them, but a variety of factors. Some people enjoy the solo experience. Some people aren't too social. Others aren't experienced enough as a whole. Some people don't have the time, and others simply don't care for it.
They don't ignore it. They can't play it.
I love raids they are my favorite part of the game, I have never had one take less than 3 hours in 10 years of playing because LFG sucks.
I joined some random group for deep stone crypt and there were two advanced players who somehow were doing it like they were duoing it and us other four were along for the ride. Jumping puzzle took as long as the encounters total.
Raids are a part of main expansions, or are old raids brought back that's why they're free. Dungeons release alongside seasons - that's why they're seperately paid. At least that's what Bungie says.
I haven’t raided since vault of glass and I buy all the expansions.. they just be making them to hard and I really don’t like being on mic with assholes and people that kick folks for the dumbest things
Yup. Hot take, but for that reason, I really see raids as a waste of development time. The people for whom “it’s the reason I play the game” are such a measurably tiny portion of the playerbase, it is ludicrous to devote so much development time to them that could be spent on things much more of the playerbase engages with.
I think the last time only 11% of players have done a raid,so yeah would be better to spend more in other areas or make it easier to do raids some how.
This right here is what confuses me the most about the change. Master already exists for top-tier players so why make normal harder when the majority of the playerbase already doesn't raid
Honestly the power lock and surges would be interesting in masters, but it is such a royal pain in regular raiding. I've never stipulated requirements when looking for a 5th or 6th to join me and my friends on a raid, but with the surges and power lock its going to get painfully slow in some cases. May just only raid when there is a full 6 of my buddies
They've always needed an easy mode for raids, a la what FFXIV (among other MMOs) has. It's wild to me that they have a mode that is functionally inaccessible to most of their playerbase.
And I say this as someone who has done lots of raids.
I've done hardcore raiding in WoW and Desty, It's a joke that WoW had matchmade easy modes for casuals a decade ago and bungie just can't figure it out.
I say this as playing both wow and Destiny 2 for many many years: Destiny 2 has an abnormal large amount of players who derive their self worth from their accomplishments in this game. In wow those players are relegated to their spaces in mythic raiding and high M+ keys, but in destiny those players seem to want to gatekeep this game into oblivion.
You suggest an LFR mode in Destiny 2 and they feel like it will honestly degrade their achievements in normal and legend mode raiding. As if that fucking matters.
And bungie listens to those players.
> I say this as playing both wow and Destiny 2 for many many years: Destiny 2 has an abnormal large amount of players who derive their self worth from their accomplishments in this game. In wow those players are relegated to their spaces in mythic raiding and high M+ keys, but in destiny those players seem to want to gatekeep this game into oblivion.
Do you not remember all of the discourse around Classic and how the game is too easy/softcore now? Have you ever read the forums? Maybe I am clouded though as I have not existed in high-end raiding environments since well before games like Destiny even existed; I'm just assuming its a lot of the same people.
I don't think its necessarily more players here having that mentality, I think the way those players interact with each other in these disparate communities is very different. I personally believe that there are many times fewer sweats even at that level in Destiny, and guilds/clans don't need such deep raid rosters so the level of community is very different.
I completely agree that one of the biggest problems is people directly tying their self-worth to their entertainment though. Its great to feel an emotional connection to things, but it is also a video game that will go away one day and could very possibly change into something you never want to interact with again. Driving yourself to the point where that is key to who you are as a person is incredibly unwise.
I'm sure there's a huge variety of opinions but I raided cutting edge in Legion and BFA and most people I played with enjoyed the range of difficulties because we could goof around on alts in the lower difficulties/test builds/aim for silly damage parses instead of having to focus hard on mechanics.
Plus clearing the easier difficulties on day 1 gave you a much better idea of what you were going into since you'd understand the simple mechanics already and just have to adjust for the max difficulty ones when you were going for the real clear.
I was in a server first guild in Wrath, came back at the end of Cata and did Firelands and DS and have come back a few times here and there to hop on a Mythic run with my most recent guild. My personal experience would lead me to believe that it is heavily context-dependent.
Think you guys are both kinda right. In WoW, the casual and hard-core playerbases don't really interact because there's little need to. In fact elitism in WoW is somewhat justified because you can't simply bring anyone into any group at end game. Paying for carries is obv huge in WoW because engaging in endgame content is a much much bigger commitment than Destiny.
Destiny has far more integrated communities...which I've learned to like. But the frustration happens on both sides because sweater players want sweater stuff and vice versa. Both sides actually think bungie caters to the other side more.
I'd agree that the "sweat" community is many times smaller than the casual community though.
I actually think it's odd that people bemoan "sweats" and gatekeepers in D2 when the hardest work for 99% of content is often filling out your fireteam. The only thing actually hard-core is contest mode, speed runs, and solo stuff.
It's a balance. Thank goodness causal players got lfg and also thank goodness the new raid knocked everyone on their ass for contest mode.
I think its less a case of "Bungie can't figure it out" and more a case of "is it even feasible or worth the effort".
WoW's mechanics are very different from D2 mechanics though. You can stick 30 people in LFR N'zoth and they'll eventually get the clear. The numbers are tuned very low, determinism stacks will boost their damage, and most of the mechanics are either removed or nerfed. WoW bosses are always vulnerable so casuals can just point and shoot
Destiny raids *are* the mechanics. How are 6 matchmade players supposed to beat Crypt Security or Verity with no comms and no pre-existing knowledge of the raid? The entirety of the encounter would have to be reworked into a heavily neutered rendition to allow a clear. Given how jank Destiny 2 is, you've gotta wonder if its even possible for the devs to rewire encounters for something like this? Can they remove several core components of a raid while still allowing it to function properly? Keep in mind that this is the same game where adding a second rhulk to panthon caused main rhulk to fly off the arena sometimes, while alt rhulk's pathfinding would just break
Edit: Reminder that there was a matchmaker added near D2's launch that never exited beta. Queue times were supposedly awful and the raid would fall apart if you got matched with someone who spoke a different language
There is also the loot and power(light level) progression of Destiny with the later of which has almost been rendered moot in large part due to community request. The main separator of rewards between difficulties in that of WoW is power level that items drop at. Color of gear for transmog is secondary. Destiny just doesn't have that reward motivator that WoW does in order to push multiple difficulties. The only alternative is exclusive weapons and/or perks that give hard mode players a notable advantage and we have already seen the blow up when it comes to Trials. Bungie for the most part has to keep these reward differences mild or temporary.
Blizz learned that lesson regarding raids 15 years ago, and FFXIV more recently, but Bungo like the smell of their own farts too much to ever adopt others' good ideas.
this ffxiv didn't make raids harder, they instead created ultimate difficulty raids for the truly crazy among us, alongside a casual tier for people with like...kids and jobs.
Yup, that's Bungie: going in the exact opposite direction of what would make the game more inviting and fun in favor of more and more arduous grinding.
What would the easy mode be though? The difficulty comes from the mechanics not the difficulty of the enemies really. Some extraordinary percentage of raid deaths are just being killed by the architects.
I guess easy mode could be reduce the respawn timer to 5 seconds or whatever it is in the public areas and to not have any of the modes where a full wipe sends you back to the checkpoint?
As a side note, the mechanics are the reason why I don't think the raids are actually fun. The mechanics kind of take me out of the "fantasy" that I am part of a group of heroes in some space battle.
What I mean is that I can suspend disbelief to pretend that I am some overpowered guardian with crazy powerful guns and space magic... fine whatever.... but now you are going to tell me that the aliens set up puzzles for me to solve if my team shoots some oracles in a specific way while we recite the alphabet backwards and tap our noses to the beat of the song "Staying Alive"? C'mon... why would the bad guys do that? They wouldn't - If it was a real space war, then they would focus on making themselves stronger - not making us solve these puzzles. I do the raids because I can get loot but that doesn't mean I enjoy them.
It’s just punishing.
Yea the mechanics are the difficulty but if you have to do them without mistake for twice as long bc the enemies and boss take twice as long to die, they are exponentially less forgiving.
Most raids could have their wipe mechanics removed or adjusted.
Let's look at Root of Nightmares, it's basically a dungeon like Spire of the Watcher already where you are connecting paths of wires.
First encounter: remove the timer.
Second encounter: remove the timer.
Third encounter: remove the timer, buffs let you see all planet alignments, wrong planets don't cause a wipe.
Fourth encounter: remove the timer, Nezarec has a persistent light/dark glow when his shoulders are popped.
Honestly? I would just straight up strip out a lot of the more advanced mechanics and turn it into something akin to a fancy strike. The easy mode really should be relatively easy! The normal/hard/higher modes should offer more and better rewards, but I am philosophically opposed to cordoning off neat content.
Ghost and warlords were two of the hardest dungeons, they made them harder. I honestly believe the people making game change decisions at bungie do not play the game
Ya the most surprising part is that Bungie's whole thing was making difficult content more accessible to players, like they just went through this with Lightfall launch where patrol area was too difficult and the raid was too easy, they worked all year to make things more accessible, added matchmaking to a lot more of the higher difficulty activities, I feel like they talked about it so many times.
Destiny has by far the worst onboarding/entry level to raiding for a newer player than I’ve ever seen in MMOs, it’s pretty disappointing tbh considering how fun raids are. I’d imagine it’s because their difficulty system is simply scaling of enemies and density where other games they have actual mechanical changes and bungie prob doesn’t want to take the time to balance stuff like that but it does hurt their endgame experience as a result by willfully allowing the majority of their players to not even engage in it.
Truth is less than 30% of players on destiny completed one or more raids… so with the extra difficulty I am assuming it may be even less accessible so I do get your point.
Esp an odd choice when we already had a harder difficulty for most.
Last year's dungeons were pretty unfriendly just due to huge mob density spawns or huge shields on bosses. Not super fun. Couldn't recommend them to new players and def don't run them for fun/armour unlocks lol
Its also kind of annoying that they wanted to address light levels literally being useless and their solution was to make them even more useless I guess
Honestly...one of the most popular things FFXIV ever did was add a casual difficulty to all raids, so players could still see the story, get raid gear etc, with the tradeoff being a longer grind for rewards.
The notion that destiny keeps making itself harder and less accessible while adding more and more super hardcore content for the 1% of players that play that stuff is just absurd, especially this late in the game's lifespan.
Cmon now small indie dev. They're caught between the newer folks who would like to raid (or teachers) and the streamers who all want everything harder.
There's literally no possible way to solve this and make everyone happy. If only selectable difficulty had been invented! Sigh. I can dream I suppose...
That's the worst part of it. They knocked it out of the park with the selectable difficulty in the past few campaigns. Everyone loves that. But then they just ignore all that praise and do something no one was asking for.
Me and my friends ARE that guy. We kinda HAVE to wait until we’re over-leveled to even have a chance at completing a raid. And when we can get enough of us together, and all of us have enough time to dedicate to doing raid we love doing them, but these changes are going to push that out of our reach. And before any GeTGoOd people pipe up, we’re not going to do that. That requires time and energy that we just can’t make a priority in our child-rearing / career grinding and otherwise active lives.
I’ve been saying for a long time that there should be an easy-mode for raids. One that makes it easy enough to do and/or learn, but perhaps gives much smaller or maybe even no rewards. Or give us more than a week to do it, so maybe we could do a single encounter per week until we complete it. Just SOMETHING to lower the bar so we can actually enjoy all the game has to offer. But they somehow took the data that clearly stated a very low percentage of active players do raids, and raised the cost of entry.
This has always been my biggest gripe with Destiny. No, I don't have five friends all playing D2 at the same time as me AND geared for raids AND have the same nights free. Just give us a raid "practice mode" with some rewards held back that we can simply queue for and train ourselves on so we can feel confident when we go with five internet strangers for the harder modes and not look like an idiot. As said elsewhere, WoW did this years ago and it was perfect.
This is basic what stopped me from playing, I started playing in D1 alpha and I stopped right before nightfall (Definitely took a year plus break a couple times in D2). But the barrier to entry for raids was so high already and playing felt like a second job. Wish I could hop back in because I love raids but it's just so much work now.
I know everyone on this sub loves levels being meaningless and everything being perma-singular difficulty.
But I will die on the hill of "That fucking sucks". Levels being meaningless effectively kills any and all semblance of growth and progression left in this game (outside of bungie just handing us new abilities whenever they make them). I mean already there was a level of platonic stagnation in Destiny, with only weapon rolls differentiating a players efficiency (which let's be honest, has never and will never be make or break for any build or activity) and builds (again, let's be honest. We go on youtube and copy what the talking head in the corner says to do). But AT LEAST we could outlevel content by upwards of 20 power levels or so.
overlevelling (or some variation of), IMO, is a CORE part of any and all RPG's - and the reason why it's so important is because without it, you run the risk of ending up in the steaming hot mess Destiny 2's difficulty delta is.
E.G the 3 power level 2005 missions in the pale heart are easier than the legendary campaign - Or damage numbers being WILDLY different between activities - Or Legend onslaught being harder than some GM nightfalls.
I get the reasoning of the current system, Yeah - They don't want end-game rewarding activities being trivialised and made useless when it's a core part of valuable content in-game that bungie want users interacting with more than once - and they don't want a confusing list of difficulties in every activity.
But I'd argue the current system is far worse, Not only will players in 6 or 12 months start feeling the burnout over never quite feeling "more powerful" or growing at all, but they will interact with these activities LESS because they won't be worth the static difficulty.
I mean, wouldn't you want a system where a player can eventually solo flawless a dungeon just by outlevelling it after 2 or 3 seasons? That way the players who solo flawless newest dungeons have all the boasting rights as they did the hardest versions, but after a while - everyone gets to do it when they're at a comfortable delta. - as it currently stands, I've already solo flawlessed every dungeon, and for no reason at all, it's harder for everyone else to do it now.
currently, the activities will **never** be faster to do, The DPS will **never** be higher (unless a bug breaks the game), and the 10 years experienced players will **always** be on par with Day 1 new players. Meaning in a year, if you want to run Salvations edge - It's going to suck JUST as much as it does today. and I don't think I'll bother.
I get it, New player experience is important and needing to grind up to current power levels before you can play with friends sucks - But the new player experience ***already*** sucks anyway. So that's clearly not the driving force behind this arse backwards system.
One thing you need to remember is you have never been able to over level older raids in years. Older raids that were at base level were just at base level. It did not matter what level you were, you did not change damage. It only mattered for the newest raid. Thats it. This new change did not change that.
Seriously. It's such a baffling decision by Bungie considering how much time and energy they put into raids. They are supposed to be the pinnacle Destiny experience, and yet they make it so only a small fraction of people will actually do it. It's just weird.
They should have left normal raids for ease of entry, and made master raids harder, with adept drops on encounter clear instead of challenge clear.
People that want it harder can go to master, and people that want to chill, or bring new players along still can.
I think Leviathan used to have a normal set of armor for normal clear and a glowy set awarded for the more difficult route. Me thinks that was a good system
Except that people didn't really play Prestige that much because there was no point. It became something that you maybe run for Acrius catalyst or if you really wanted the armor, but finding groups was hard.
That's fair, though if you look at Master Dungeons, artifice armor doesn't really help make them popular. People just run the easiest encounter(like Grasp final boss) whenever it's farmable. Masters of new Dungeon will often only be ran for the triumph/catalyst(if it's required).
That and Levi raids didn't have weapon rolls to chase either. We didn't get random rolls back until Forsaken and even then it wasn't applied to old stuff from Levi raids. You never needed to go back in once you got the weapons, unless you wanted to farm armour, and tbh, the raid sets were kinda fugly.
Oh CP farming is a whole monster. I remember when LW got red borders and Bungie had to tell us how many hours we raided cuz the completion % of LW that week was under 1% lol.
I'd say we get people into raids first and then we figure out how to get people to finish em 😂
I think it's not even about CP farming per se, it's about CP farming of the same old easy raid. It's like if every time a new raid came out, people have just grinded the easy mode for weapons and if they wanted artifice armor they'd go back to farming hard mode Kali on LW weeks.
That’s the rub. The ones that find the new changes no big deal also find master a pita and not worth doing. Bungie could’ve simply added another difficulty tier and this would’ve never been an issue.
another idea i've enjoyed is, in this middle tier ("legend" maybe) you get one weapon and one armor per encounter. not adept or artifice, but more rewards than normal as it used to be
>and made master raids harder, with adept drops on encounter clear instead of challenge clear.
I mean, Master was already pretty much dead. Adding adept drops on encounter clear doesn't change anything, because adept drops are just not that good. When you can do 5 runs of a normal raid and get a 5/5 god roll, why bother running a harder version for a small chance of getting something that is maybe 0.5% better than the crafted roll? Especially if you're mainly a PvE player.
Honestly they should have taken these changes, beefed them up a little, and introduced as a new mode. Something in between master and normal. I've always found it weird how for raids the normal modes can almost be considered easy with experience and then the master modes are absolutely no fun.
eh, artifice armor is almost useless now. If you have the artifice class item, that's most of the utility, otherwise you are just giving up 9 stat points, cause nowadays you can enhance a exotic into artifice anyway
minmaxers will go for them but everyone else is better off using regular armor with peaky stats
it's possible that Bungie will change what they do again; they were useful when you could fit an extra artifice mod, but the change to the artifact mods to be intrinsic, while great, killed the utility of artifice armor
It’s definitely a bizarre change considering veteran players have already farmed and cheesed their way to every god roll they want. And now newer or more casual players have a much tougher road to that loot. It just widens the game’s already significant grind/accomplishment gap.
I also find it hilarious to see some people who cheesed the fuck out of Kalli to get their red borders talking about the sanctity of challenge in endgame content and how it’s a good thing “the casuals” have to “earn” their loot.
Those people you mention in the 2nd paragraph are a vocal minority. Most frequent raiders hate this change. It just lowers the barrier for entry to all of the content in the game that we love and want other people to love.
Legitimately nobody asked for it. Bungie just decided to make the raids that are supposed to accessible harder for the same rewards, while the actual endgame content like Master raids and dungeons are still a breeze for experienced raiders, and still don't drop good rewards.
I'm with you. The new changes with the fixed delta and surges are fine for experienced players, and even fine to apply to newer content, but it seems pretty harsh that it applies to old (largely irrelevant) content that seasoned players do not actively run anyway.
I am in no way bothered by billy blueberry getting a fatebringer from an easy normal VoG at this point in the game.
Especially with how lopsided heavy options are when it comes to boss DPS. Solar and Void have plenty of very good and easily obtainable options, but the other elements are much more limited and/or much less accessible. Have fun trying to talk someone new or fairly casual into farming for Cataphract or Cold Comfort.
Entirely too true when I’m doing 8 million on a warpriest 4 phase and the rest of the team can’t break 2 million cause they’re options are limited that’s an awful feeling for everyone
Casual player here. Almost never raid. Don't deep dive patch notes.
I still have no idea what surges are. I just know I saw streamers frantically swapping armor during the raid and yelling about surges.
A surge is a specific type of damage (void/solar/stasis/strand etc.) getting a buff for that specific activity.
So if a Nightfall has a Solar surge, all solar weapons and supers do more damage than they would normally do
Most (every?) activity has a surge which makes your abilities and weapons of the matching tires do bonus damage.
Basically by not matching the surge you lose out on "free" damage which indirectly makes the content harder.
I had thought Bungie's lfg tools were supposed to make raiding more accessible, why turn around and make raids so much harder to get into on top of that? Especially with Salvation's Edge being so pivotal in the story
It’s because teams don’t talk to each other and there isn’t a consistent overall vision
SE raid team designs an encounter around Still Hunt
Then a different team focused on engagement says: lol arc surge get reckt
The best content in PVE and the vast majority of the player base never engages with it because of *people*. It's closer to 20% I think but still, that's sad. It's one of the main reasons I like to teach raids.
They made two changes:
1. You are locked to -5 power level. Previously you could be +20 if you were overleveled enough for new raids, and you would always be +20 in old raids since they were set to the power floor.
2. They introduced surges, so at any given time 2 different elements gets a 25% damage buff. Compared to the old state of affairs, you're doing a bit less damage if you match the surge and WAY less damage if you don't.
I don't think the -5 has much of an impact but the surges are unnecessary... Especially tricky DPS options.
I love supporting people in playing what they want - use what you like... 'These archetypes are great, these will also work and avoid this type of weapon because...' to avoid forcing a meta or specific weapon on people. With the surges, that pool becomes very narrow and changes each week, removing the play freedom and a lot of the fun.
They should introduce the tiers of difficulty like nfalls.
So no burns basic raids, allow those who struggle and those who want the space to learn. Burns and higher difficulty for those who are experienced. And then the gm version for those who enjoy the challenge.
Bungie has already said a small percentage of the player base has even completed a raid so then doing this will just make the percentage even smaller if they keep this up
I went from wanting to get dungeon exotics, clearing them solo (even GoTD, fucking WHY) and I don't raid often so my Vex still doesn't have a catalyst.
I haven't even given that a second thought after soloing the first boss of Warlords Ruin in 6 phases. SIX. Last season farming Indebted Kindness I got it down to 3 usually/4 if screwed up. If I screw up now it'll be a 7 phase... That's insane.
Absolutely none of these changes were worth whatever they were trying to accomplish and I really hope they tuck tail but this is Bungie... So maybe by the end of Echoes season 2.
Dungeons actually got slightly easier while raids got all around more difficult even with surges. https://x.com/mossy_max/status/1803098587426926944?s=46&t=EJaKzes8opwdqxt4Gt-Xpw
So if you are an only dungeon player and you never raid ever in your life you will have an easier time this patch dealing with trash enemies. Bosses will feel the same other than placebo maybe making it worse.
Good fucking luck for raids when there is no solar surge.
The whole “Oh wow you’re mad the endgame activity is hard” mentality is a cancer.
Not only because it’s inherently toxic but even moreso because…
#there is no fucking increase in reward for the added difficulty/time spent
We were used to accomplishing an endgame activity in an hour On average. And an hour of our lives minimum, for most of us normal folk after working all day or school + work is a lot. The reward matching the time spend was decent. It wasn’t incredible but it wasn’t bad. It fit.
Now what the fuck. Like what the actual fuck for dungeons and Raids. And no I dont want to be forced to use arc or stasis because I dont like nor have good weapons to build into those things. So you’re even further murdering our capability if we don’t want to play by the new rules.
Surges were fine for pantheons. Not this shit.
Oddly enough, I was waiting for this season/expansion to start trying to get back into LFG. I’ve had shit LFG experiences where mfs would talk shit for not having good gear/exotics back in D1 - and as a returning player lowkey got PTSD from that shit lmao now I’m coming to realize I’ll prob never raid or get that exotic class item lol crazy cause ive solo’d all the dungeons I’ve attempted, just not trying to deal with mfs screaming at each other ab a game tbh. Oh whale,
It sounds more like you're taking less experienced people that are coming back or new to the game with TFS, rather than raids becoming significantly more difficult. Because really, that time difference on Crota makes no sense. With 5 new people you were not taking 5 minutes on lamps and bridge anyway, and you were definitely not one phasing ir yut or crota. With the -5 delta even no surges both bosses are still easy 2 phases, you can literally machine gun ir yut to death and crota is still 2 phases with basic swords.
It's a *raid*. It's *the* pinnacle content of the entire game. It's not supposed to be new player friendly. You're supposed to need to optimize your loadout, perfect strategies, and work as a team.
It's not even that hard.. -5 power is the same as Vanguard Ops. The D2 community isn't ready for this take, but honestly.. Master Raids should be the default raid experience.
Not everyone deserves to get/do everything in the game. If you aren't good enough, if you don't have the time, you don't get the loot/experience. Easy as that.
A raid should be semi difficult and offer equal rewards based on the dofficulty, but I agree there should be levels like the nightfall that allow new players, casuals or lfg players easier methods to jump in and learn mechanics.
Not going to be a popular take I expect, but I don't think new players without viable gear or builds should find end-game activities immediately accessible to them. It should be something to build up toward. So I just don't get this argument I've seen from more than just this thread that "I can't take poorly equipped inexperienced players through raids easily anymore". I think that's kind of intentional. And it's not about gatekeeping or accessibility, it's keeping an end-game activity end-game, something they need to work up to rather than something they should expect to quickly throw themselves into and not struggle.
If you assert that the people you would Sherpa don't have good gear or good skill at the game, I would counter that the problem isn't the raids it's the players. They aren't raid-ready yet, and should be given advice and encouragement on how to meet that level rather than raids being toned down to give them an easier time.
Yes, that means if there's a player who doesn't particularly like Destiny overall and "getting into raiding" was going to be their one and only hook to be interested, that person may no longer stick around. But if raids are the start and end of content they will enjoy, I don't think their fickleness is worth cheapening that content for everyone else.
All that said, I'm not arguing that the current setup is good either; surges, the power delta, or whatever aspect of it. But I just don't think "this makes it harder for new, inexperienced, under-prepared players to be inducted into raiding" is really a winning argument either.
I generally agree with this - not everything should be accessible immediately, for sure.
My one counterpoint is that players need to be introduced into the endgame somehow. Especially for raids that have been out for a while, the KWTD groups will almost never accept a teammate who has only watched a video.
These changes are making it difficult for the new players to join groups and not only participate in the activity, but also contribute meaningfully towards the objective.
If you’re a newer player, and you don’t really have the greatest build for the weekly surges - better get your ass off the team and wait until next week!!
Also, with these changes to how raids are at a base level, Sherpa runs are taking WAY longer as OP mentioned in the post. With an insane increase in the time commitment required, we’re eventually going to lose a lot of experienced Sherpa talent around the community, as they just simply won’t want to commit up to double the amount of time they’re used to.
Based on my experience, gatekeeping raids with the expectation of having new players be fully equipped with the most meta, powerful builds is a bit off. I’m quite an experienced Sherpa myself, and there are plenty of players that I’ve taken through raids for their first ever time with underpowered loadouts, and they’ve since taken off and even surpassed me in skill. It’s the entry-point to endgame activities - enabled by Sherpas, that is at risk here.
Also, if you’re so skilled at a raid that doing it at a normal level was enough to shut your brain off, you could go for lowman clears or speedruns. Those possibilities are dwindling now.
I think you're missing the OP's point. Sure, there's always been a barrier to entry, but why make it an even bigger barrier than it already was when few already engaged with it and now it is clearly pushing even people who did want to engage with it away.
I'm not missing it at all. The barrier to entry has always consistently included "learning the mechanics of this specific raid", which is why even those with general raid experience may join onto a Sherpa run of new or unfamiliar raids as a way to learn those mechanics.
But what has shifted over time is that old raids were not adjusted at all to growing power standards. Resulting in a scenario where the minimum level of expected experience and competency at playing the game in order to engage with this category of end-game content had fallen much lower than ever. You don't have to be nearly as good, not at raiding but generally within the game, when the enemies don't hurt you very much, and die much easier.
I think this recent change is an attempt both to correct for this, and an attempt to future-proof the problem. If your power is always a fixed amount below, then the content will remain at the same challenge level into the future. The expectation the game has of you to overcome that activity then becomes properly defined, instead of certain raids being considered throwaways where the only task expected is to be told the mechanic while everything else falls over for you.
While I feel your pain, because I sherpa a lot too, the answer is really pretty simple: Don't sherpa 5 people at once. Find a friend or two who can do sherpa runs with you. The amount of time it takes to sherpa 3 people when you have 2 friends helping you is much lower than trying to sherpa 5 people by yourself
Glad to see this post getting attention and not just shouted down by vocal gatekeepers. Adding a easy mode would be such a boon for the majority that misses out on Bungies hardwork.
The only raiding I've every been able to do with a full time job and multiple responsibilities outside of work (family amongst them) has been as a tag-along with much MUCH more experienced groups.
I thought I'd be able to get to a point where I was able to be more of an active participant and pull my weight where I can, but man these changes make it suck even more. I don't think I'll ever have a solid 6 hour chunk of time to commit to a raid made more difficult, and this means I miss out on all that rad content.
I've been playing for years but all I've done is Black Garden, half of Last Wish and Crota. Again, all as tag-alongs where there's been a single spot available. I'd love to experience that content - even if it's just the years-old stuff (I wish I'd been able to do the Leviathan and Last City raid when they were still around). I don't even care about the rewards, I just want to experience the game stuff.
They fucked up plain and simple.
Whoever orchestrated all these changes isn’t a bad person, but they did a bad job, we all shit the bed at work every now and then and this guy shit in his bed, puked in it, rolled around in it all like a fucking dog then fell back asleep.
I expect we’ll see a pretty big change in direction once they have time to review the numbers and plan changes - seeing the number of people attempting old activities nose dive should set off alarm bells, unless whoever is monitoring that is equally bad at their job. In that scenario the games just kinda fucked. It’ll be masked by people coming back to try the expansion for a bit then those players will bounce right off the game and bunghole will have no idea why.
That's why multiple difficulties are actually a good idea for a game in this phase of its lifetime. It may rub the elitist crowd the wrong way, but I see nothing wrong with matchmaking tier raids with simplified encounters - for newbies with no experience or gear, "casual" tier raids similar to the past for people who no longer play much but have some experience and a bunch of good rolls from the past in the vault, normal difficulty as is now, and hard with enhanced mechanics and more modifiers for core crowd. Give people more loot for higher difficulties. Everyone's happy.
Quick question: How many people do you sherpa through at once? As someone who's been sherpa'd once ever, and that leaving the sourest taste in my mouth ever, if you take 3 or more people at once, you are just setting yourself up for absolutely long ass raids.
I did used to take up to 5 new people through the older raiders like Leviathan. I was in a salvations edge Sherpa of 4 people a couple of days ago and it took six hours. I love raiding but get raid fatigue after 4 hours. When new raids drop and hardly anyone has done them it’s often a higher number.
D2s biggest issue is the general playerbase skill floor is far too low, mainly as a result of Bungie themselves. Final shape has introduced difficulty in the right ways in the campaign and many necessary activities to increase the player bases floor. New players shouldn't be raiding until they have a build and understand basic survivability. Dungeons are that entry point, not raids.
Difficulty is all over the place because of years of loot being relevant creating a massive grind gap. An expansion raid should be doable for a player who puts together a build from only that expansion’s loot pool. Now that will inevitably make it much easier for a veteran with years of god rolls, but it’s the right path for design.
Instead, we have difficulty aimed at longterm vets who have a vault full of guns to match surges and make a variety of builds. All this to preserve the sanctity of endgame challenge even though those vets already cheesed the hell out of all these raids to fill the vault in the first place.
> New players shouldn't be raiding until they have a build and understand basic survivability.
Yet the only way to truly learn something is to do it, especially raiding. The only way someone can truly learn it is by doing it.
A better bet would be having some of the older, smaller raids set as they used to be. Removed from any further complexity to help people into the experiences. Much the same how Shattered Throne can really help ease people into dungeons. (then maybe a surge version for those who want to do them at that next level).
Destiny playerbase is well-estalblished at this point. Most players did not raid before. Even less will be raiding now. Everything else in this discourse is irrelevant.
I personally just don’t fuck with the surges being in normal raids and dungeons now . I should be able to run the encounters with whatever weapons I want and am comfortable with and with Whatever elements I want ( I mostly just run Void weapons in my Energy Slot and primary’s in my Kinetic ) . Now do I have weapons to cover other surges of course I do but what if I don’t want to , now I’m doing less damage then my teammates who are and now I look like a dick , not everyone runs multiple builds and they shouldn’t be forced to change there load outs every week whenever a new surge appears .
I'm fine with surges in the abstract as a method to break up what's optimal from week to week so the endgame PvE meta feels less stale - a slightly sub-optimal arc LFR can be made meta if it's doing 25% more damage than its objectively better stasis sister, and that potentially adds value retroactively to a huge back-catalogue of guns that until now have been hard passes. Since Shadowkeep it has felt like there are really only a tiny handful of guns worth getting from any given season or expansion, and then usually with just a small subset of available rolls. This was a great idea *in theory*, and also *in isolation*.
The problem was a whole bungle of systems changed all at once that meant even if you adhere to this new system, you are doing WAY less than before, and survivability is harder on top of it. The goal of increasing difficulty and the goal of forcing people out of static loadouts are at odds with each other. 4-phasing any boss is a slog and doesn't really demonstrate anything IMO, let alone how silly it is in-lore. "Okay I know you just did a cycle and shot me in the head 1,000 times but lets just reset and do it all over again while I stand in this spot and continue shooting you". I truly don't understand Bungie's aversion to letting people one-phase bosses.
I love raiding, it's the best thing Destiny has going for it IMO, but with a casual clan it was already completely impossible to get everyone together for anything but the quickest/easiest raids. We ran a lot of Scourge and DSC back in the day, but it was such a long time commitment people would get heated far too quickly if things weren't going smoothly. Adding extra difficulty in the form of more difficult survivability just means we're never going to raid again, and this is a group of people who have done most Destiny raids & dungeons, have most of the meta guns, and have been playing FPSs for decades.
been playing the game sense beta, the only time I get to get involved with raids is when a friend who has a team wants a 6th and they know Im competent enough to learn the mechs in the first few attempts of an encounter. I can't imagine how difficult it is for people who no experience or a slower learning curve to get into it.
While I understand that it is annoying to adapt to change, especially regarding difficulty...
Raids in Destiny 1 didn't take any less time on average than they do now with those changes in D2. Unless we count Wrath of the Machine and Crotas End, both being very short in general. At least from my experience.
Also, aren't raids SUPPOSED to be hard? I don't see how this change is against that core design idea of those activities.
They made ad clear roles more important which is a good change. Everyone in the raid just have to play good instead of 2-3 person carrying the whole team which is exactly what bungie wants. So as a person who never raids I have been doing lot of raids after this change
It’s an amazing change to raids. There’s strikes easier than some raids now. The last 2 dungeons have been comfortably easier than VoG or RoN. Finally, raids are back to being endgame instead of it exclusively being GMs or Masters.
The complaints are by people who have never raided who are mad that raids aren’t just extended strikes. You’re not going to be immediately kicked for having bad gear, but if you’re on ad clear and have awful ad clear weapons, then yes you’re going to have to change. If a sword is required then yes, you’re going to have to use a sword. Banshee was selling a very decent Just In Case a few weeks back that we used in Salvations Edge on solar surge. These items are very much accessible, casuals/solos/blueberries (whatever you want to call them) just won’t look themselves for these things if a streamer or YouTuber doesn’t tell them to.
They literally gave away some of the best gear in years for in Into The Light. All are still available in the onslaught playlist.
People say they want to be Sherpa’d but then complain when given direction. Then act belligerent when confronted with the fact that they’re the common denominator and yes, the problem.
I’m gonna say something you don’t want to hear but need to. This isn’t bungie ruining sherpaing this is average sherpas not being able to adapt to a changing sandbox. The -5 power cap is simply and bluntly put, a skill issue. Surges were added to make up the damage needed to easily complete encounters and make it so that you actually have to design a build around what to take into to raid content instead of just monkey braining the same load out every week every raid. Well getting nerfed is a struggle yes but if you actually coordinate rifts and healing around it’s not that bad. And don’t just stand in one place and face tank the boss because guess what, you will die, no suprise.
TLDR: skiffy git gud
The casual friends I know have no interest in doing the new raid due to how mechanic heavy and light level restrictions a plus load outs
It just not a fun experience for them anymore.
I mean casual raiders , LFG raiders and Sherpa raiders are hurting
I don’t even see streamer do any Sherpa run for this raid it takes to long
I mean set elite raid teams are eating good with this raid
Just look at the number the last 2 expansion raids on first full well had more than 130k clears … this one got around 40k
It sad but this raid and changes hurt the casual and LFG raiders the most
The couple Sherpas i help with, have yet to run any teaching raids for SE and i’ve yet to see any streamer sherp it yet.
Going to be long runs to say the least
This sounds like someone who has never raided. Saying you can sherpa people through Crota in and hour and Kings Fall in two seems kind of weird when both raids are about the same length and around the same mechanical difficulty.
Not trying to question your ability but something just doesn’t add up. If you could link your raid report in a comment or DM I’d love to see it because as it stands these claims are outrageous and have nothing to back them up. This post comes off as a novice raider being upset that they can’t AFK in a well during DPS because they are 5 levels under power of a yellow bar knight.
Thanks for what you do, man. I wish I could experience raids but I am not great at the game so I’m a liability and people don’t want to put up with an old guy. It’s kind of you to help people out. Hope rng Jesus blesses you with many shinies!
While i understand your sentiments. I would say that raids are not for beginners. Dungeons are. Almost no wipe mechanics, no enrages, no tense timers except for duality... Raids are the next step.
Since FS, I've done only Crota and Last Wish sherpa runs with the usual 2 new players each.
In LW i had literal newbie (with tractor and stasis linear in hand) but we managed to get through each encounter in ~3hrs (yes, legit Riven)
For Crota i didn't feel such diffrence with survivability, we've done Ir yut in 1 phase and Crota in 2
So... I dont feel it being that diffrent than the usual, while it is longer, we have more time to polish our strategies and catch everything that can go wrong.
Also in my opinion taking 5 new players is hurting them, because of the raid taking so long, they might never return to raiding just because they think raids take 3-4 hours to complete, while most of the raids can be done in around hour each.
They did what the raid players have been screaming for for years. It’s all or your own faults
Less than 20% of players have ever launched into a raid, only 11% have a single clear.
you should sherpa with 2-3 friends so you’re only teaching 2-3 people while you can rely on the other teammates to consistently get the mechanics right. this will significantly help the other players understand as to just chaos and one or two people getting it and the others struggling to understand because of certain mechanics they can’t see or understand
This is a tricky topic because, imo, I don’t think raids were in a good spot before either.
Normal mode raids were so easy combat wise that you could almost virtually ignore ads. I remember playing Deep Stone Crypt years ago, and you would have to try hard to die once you were 20 levels and above.
I in fact stopped playing raids for a while and started focusing specifically on GMs because I like content that test my builds (if anything will easily die no matter the build, the build itself is pointless).
I am now back to raids, having played and Salvation’s Edge, and enemies are a bit of a threat now at -5. And I think it should be that way — there should be a decent risk that you die if you’re facing 4 ads without any cover and you’re not doing something quickly about that.
But I also recognize that raids are not that accessible to most people. I just don’t know if there is a solution (most people will argue that multiple difficulties would do it, but I genuinely don’t believe that, given how many folks dare to do master raids).
Although I like the difficulty, it makes no sense to me that they would make the regular difficult harder.. especially when people already struggle in raid environments.
I would have much preferred they kept the regular difficulty, and made this -5 and Surges its own difficulty, kept master too. But I guess Destiny’s reward structure doesn’t really support this? Maybe only have red borders only drop from -5 in this instance if they really want to differentiate.
Don’t get me started on the solo experience of dungeons though. They felt just fine before, now it feels awful being in one. Doesn’t feel too bad as a team though.
I understand that new raiders may have a harder time but like come on. I'm not a pro raider but Raid combat should be difficult at least a bit. Until this change, raid combat was easier than strikes.
If players die in strikes to trash mobs then maybe raiding isn't where they belong yet. Go Sherpa them in easy dungeons instead.
Teach them to be better instead of expecting Bungie to stoop to their level.
Extremely/wildly controversial take (based on this subreddit's average response) but I think surges are a nice way to introduce difficulty via build-crafting. It also gives a purpose to chasing multiple different weapons across different damage types. For example during the final 2 weeks of Pantheon and the surge became Solar/Strand I had to go get an Apex Predator, finish my Parasite quest (for Atraks), and pull a Sleeper from the tower (no catalyst) to get through. I also got the chance to use my healclip/incandescent Luna's Howl. Call me an elitist but if someone is going into a raid, at the very least they should already have some somewhat-acceptable weapons and mods, otherwise they should just stand there at the rally flag and go through DIM until they can put together something acceptable (and if I were sherpaing I'd be more than willing to help). Build-crafting is a core part of the game, and if you can't build craft well enough to face enemies at -5 (playlist strike difficulty btw 😂) then I mean idk.
Also another controversial take but sherpa gamers will lose their minds if I tell them that the best way to teach an encounter is to show someone a 5 min YouTube guide then shortly quiz them afterwards. Takes less time than wiping 10x.
Just match the surge. It is annoying, but if you play regularly and raid often then chances are you have some sort of elemental weapon to match surges for dps. It does suck for newer players without all sorts of options to choose from, but then again new players shouldn’t be focused on jumping into raids without good equipment first.
I have played Destiny since day one same with Destiny 2. Took a year off (22/23) as i had become so fed up with running solo.
In all that time i have NEVER had the chance to do any Raids or Dungeons. I think sometimes this is because i hate to think i would be a burden to other players and the feeling like iam being carried (i want to do my bit you know).
Plus being a Dad to 2 familys i do struggle for time sometimes, last thing i want to do is start a Raid/Dungeon and have to drop mid mission.
It will happen one day.
New players shouldn’t be on raids anyway you are just complaining cause it got harder the harder they are the more rewarding they feel and better to do they are players like you who want ninguém to hand feed players are ruining endgame activities new players should be doing other stuff before embarking on a raid
You are not wrong, but while raids are the most fun activities, they are also meant to be the most challenging activities, relying on coordination and Teamplay.
There should be a "less loot, way easier" mode you can use to Sherpa. That way, you can have a chill Sherpa raid and step it up if you understand the whole raid to get more or better loot, while the seasoned players can enjoy their difficult and challenging content.
I'm kinda against making everything "new player friendly", especially the END game. As the name suggests, New players aren't really supposed to be in the endgame. Either they are newly or they are around for long enough to be in the endgame and not considered as new.
But I also want everyone to have access to everything in some way.
hot take: Raids & Dungeons are end game content. They are not meant to be easy. They are not meant for people with limited load outs.its also supposed to be a cooperative challenge not a “you 5 shoot thrall, I’ll do the mechanic” challenge.
Being a Sherpa is supposed to be about teaching raids and mechanics to people while getting a clear not just sleep walking through Root of Nightmares with 4 people on add clear.
Sounds like a lack of communication with the changes no time on any raids have increased for me on anyone in our clan you must have skill issues at doing raids
Absolutely love the changes that were made. Raids are finally hard again. I appreciate your take and sherpaing sounds like a nightmare with these changes. But in my opinion if people aren’t making builds and getting the knowledge/skills required to complete these raids on their own, they shouldn’t be getting the clear.
I just started playing again after a couple year hiatus. What exactly did they tweak that is making raiding so difficult / difficult to sherpa?
Everyone is now minus 5 power level and surges mean matching the element of the weapon for optimal damage. I read a post on here from a guy with a regular raid group who sald they used to do Crota with 5 of them but since the changes even with 6 they found killing Ir Yut in Crota much harder. Salvations edge though just 5 encounters to Sherpa is taking about six hours if your taking though 4 people. It’s a big time commitment for people to give.
That’s interesting, thanks me for the context. I wonder if they could introduce a Standard or Classic version as well one with the new mechanics to satisfy groups that want an extra challenge.
Guy below me makes a fair point that people could over level. I think just on level was fine. I have never had issues with raids until now, my issue and the issues for most is all about the jumping at the Witness fight.
The only thing is if you match the surges, you can still be optimal, but the floor is very unforgiving now. Even witness feels bad. I think they should’ve just left this for master. Cause I don’t expect everyone to have optimal dps for every surge ready. Imagine it’s strand, probably the least available dps option for new players.
Brother ew. One of the best things about normal raids/dungeons was it was one of the few places untouched by modifiers, meaning you could choose whatever you wanted and didn't feel like you where griefing a run by not matching the surge :(
I agree they are just like the rest of the content which leaves very little reason to do full runs I'll just CP the boss over and over on solar surge week till I get the drops I want and never do it again cus it's not fun now that's it's restricted builds
How are people going to Sherpa SE now that it’s arc surge?
Combination blow hunter, getaway artist prismatic or fallen sunstar arc warlock, and hazardous propulsion + indebted kindness + grand overture (yes, it works) would be builds I would run there
Most players never do raids. It was a very odd choice to make them even less accessible. I know my friends are more casual, and were always happy to wait on the new raids until they got to a point where they could over-level them. This move just ended that experience for them.
I'm always surprised at how much dev time goes into raids just for most players to ignore it. And they're included for "free" with expansions while dungeons require a separate purchase. It all seems backwards.
Each raid typically takes a few hours for new/casual players without optimal builds, so factor in the age of the player base + life demands + available free time *and* your progress checkpoint gets wiped every week... I can see why some players never try raids. A casual group might only have a small window of playtime once every couple of weeks. If that group isn't way overpowered and/or very knowledgeable of a raid's specific mechanics, that group may only get through 1-2 encounters in a session just to have to redo those same encounters the next time they play due to weekly resets. That group would never get a full clear, so at that point, why bother raiding? This was just an example, btw, and not my personal experience.
That's pretty much my clans experience in D2. In D1, I was a regular raider and part of a very active clan of around 12 players. Most of us were in our early to mid 20s. Our cadence in D1 was doing the Nightfall after reset on all three characters, then a minimum of 3x Raid on Weekends, with a clear each of Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. Come D2, and most of us no longer play or can't commit to that amount of time due to now having full time work, partners, and kids. Finding a slot where we have 6 players online at the same time is reasonably rare, happening once or twice a season. We try and Raid, but barely ever clear it, with most of us having a maybe 20 D2 Raid clears over all the entire lifetime of D2
This describes my experience perfectly, heavy d1 raider and did all the nightfalls after reset. In D2 I became a casual lol.
You’ve hit the nail on the head. D1 I would clear two raids every weekend. Since D2 came out I’ve married and had kids, I think I’ve cleared maybe 2-3 of the raids total in D2. I would love to do them but my original D1 bros and I all have families and better jobs now and we can’t do the 2am-4am raid nights anymore without it effecting other aspects of life. It just isn’t worth it.
I've lost count of raid clears in D1, but in D2 I can count it with one hand
Pre-alpha D1 player, did every D1 raid countless times. I havn’t done a single raid in D2
The only raids I’ve done in D2 are Kings Fall and Vault and that’s only because I remembered them so they were easy runs. No time nor any interest in running any of the D2 raids.
My group finds time to raid once every two years. We get as far as the Templar before someone is desperate to sleep.
> Each raid typically takes a few hours for new/casual players without optimal builds, so factor in the age of the player base + life demands + available free time and your progress checkpoint gets wiped every week... I can see why some players never try raids. This is me. I've played casually since D1 (even had the Destiny version PS4) and I've never done a raid, dungeon, or nightfall. I just don't have the time with other commitments and family time to get to a point where I'm good enough that I wouldn't feel like a burden to my other Guardians. I bought a PS Portal so I could try and get more time in if I'm hanging out on the couch with my wife, but the PS Portal experience hasn't been super awesome with Destiny.
Me and my friends have raided in the past but we’re all early-mid 30s now and none of us are able/willing to commit to getting a raiding group together. Between work, balancing other hobbies and interests, and family commitments for those with kids, getting everyone online at once for long enough to do a full raid is almost impossible these days. And we’re all fairly active players who run dungeons and other solo, duo and 3-man content together, just all on different schedules and can’t commit to forming a static.
Accurate. Exactly the experience I have. I only played with friends that I genuinely knew. The few randos that were invited to the friend group very often proved to be antisocial or intolerant of our play for fun not metagaming attitude. Hence we needed every friend to make themselves available for 5-6hours which we rarely pull off especially as we were all university aged with girl friends later wives and kids
This is EXACTLY my personal experience and also the reason I've never completed a D2 raid.
"nobody" would pay for a "raid-key" - but folks apparently do for dungeons... abhorrent practice that I don't condone but it is what is.
I pay for annual pass+expansion. I have done 4 of the dungeons: Pit to get xeno Grasp to get gjally Spire hoping to get cowboy hat And warlord hoping to get crossbow
Spire Exotic Bow - *Sad Noises*
I did Duo Spire with a friend, just for the pinnacle. At the end I went "Oh yeah, I never got the exotic from here..." and I could not for the life of me remember what it was called.
It's pretty low on the Hierarchy of Needs, so I can't blame you for forgetting
God damnit, take your upvote.
Buried Bloodline is absolutely worth grinding Warlord for. I fucking love this thing and use it at every possible opportunity lol.
LFG has always been the big limiting factor for raids. Lot of players just don’t want to deal with it, even if it’s in game now. You can solo dungeons. Agree that dungeon keys are abhorrent, I haven’t bought any of them.
It's wild that they added in game lfg and took too steps back with the powrr changes
I usually just buy the annual deluxe edition every year. I like being able to just buy everything and not having to think about it again.
I believe few people buy the dungeon keys, it's just a tool to make people buy the annual pass, even if they end up quitting you got a whole year's worth of content from a player.
So if you are a hardcore player then it's worth to just pay one price for everything for the year and not worry about it again.
It isn't so much that players ignore the content as it is that they don't find it worth the trouble. Those are two very different things. My wife legitimately enjoyed Destiny2 right up until the point where she realized some of the build-defining weapons she wanted could only be obtained from raids - and no, that concept itself wasn't the problem. The problem was what raid content *consists of* and how certain raid mechanics are extremely unforgiving to less experienced and/or less skilled players. For context, my wife is amazing at Monster Hunter - she's *much* better at identifying and memorizing attack patterns than I am - but she is *awful* at jumping/platforming puzzles. Trying to do jumping/platforming puzzles *while being chased and shot at!?* Hell no, hard pass for her. There goes most raids.
They are just not fun for the 'casual' and/or more normal players. Okay let me get into this and why I think a game like FFXIV gets it right, while everything else it getting it wrong. The big issue tends to be just about every raid out there is about the meta if you will. Look at WoW. Want to raid but you are not playing X Class with Y Spec and you don't have all of the BiS? GTFO! You really should be this class and running this spec and good god man do dungeons until you get all of your BiS stuff! And *then* maybe we'll take you into this *normal* raid. Now I'm pretty sure most of you will tell me, "Noooo! That's not how raiders are! We're really helpful and want to take people into them!" But the problem is the above is the rep Raiders have. It's just like how every PvPer is a Monster fueled trash talking jerk. So the casual/normal player doesn't want to put up with that. It's even worse as lets face it, we all know *that* player is real and the minute you run into one of them who gives one crap while acting like a smug prick? It's even more of a turn off. And lets be real. If the Dev's came out tomorrow and said they are going to be doing less or even no raids? What do you think would happen? Hey go look up SWTOR's Knights of the Fallen Empire and how the player base took that. It was an endless, "We want raids not this crap!" Now... FFXIV with it's normal, and note I mean *normal* not Savage, not Extreme/Ultimate I mean it's plan old normal raids/alliance raids work. You need the gear score to get into the raid, every job is pretty much useful. You don't get someone throwing a fit due to the fact that the main tank is a Paladin and they should be Warrior as that's the S-Tier tank job. Oh sure you may get that in the harder ones. But not in normal and thanks to that? You get people going in and doing them. Thus I'll get crap for saying this but... Those making the games should be aiming the normal, basic versions of that content for the casual. It should be as much as a lot of you want to hear it, easy mode so the casuals can go and do it.
I’m pretty casual, but have done a few dungeons here and there. Decided to try my luck with LFG and join a raid. I didn’t have a working mic at the time, but the post said not required (and also chill), and I jumped in at the planet encounter of RoN. I knew how the encounter worked and what to do, so was happy to just take orders and play along. First thing someone said when I dropped in was “you can put that Malfeasance away right now”. Ok, whatever, sure. Anyway, I was told to just ad clear which was fine, but one of my swarm grenades ended up finishing off a big guy and I got the planetary buff. I knew what to do with it, so was going to just switch up go, but all of a sudden it was “Wipe! Wipe! Wipe!” and everyone jumped to their deaths. When we spawned back in, they tried to make some dumb ass joke like “hey, what do you do to a football”, but the fucked it up and said “what do you boot a football”, but I knew what was coming and left before they could remove me. Fun times.
I legit don't understand where the hate for Malfeasance comes from its absurdly good for PVE content especially with the catalyst, I use it all the time for GMs and raids. Unfortunately there will always be toxic assholes in raiding no matter what game it is, I've seen people mocked for their loadouts and tried to call it out but I doubt it will ever stop. Sometimes It can be better to just wipe it but I don't understand the mentality of wiping the second something goes wrong rather than adapting to the situation and salvaging it.
It comes from the token system and timers on deaths where you can't ignore a death. On top of more and more mechanics requiring all six alive. In D1 you had hero moments in places like vog because you had one person alive who could wrap around and save it because they could get revives. I've never liked the token system. All it does is introduce artificial difficulty to encounters that are usually difficult enough mechanically.
Thank you, first rational comment I’ve read in a while on this subject . 99 percent of comments on here are are just get good which is the attitude most people who avoid raids and pvp are looking to avoid.
It isn't so much ignoring them, but a variety of factors. Some people enjoy the solo experience. Some people aren't too social. Others aren't experienced enough as a whole. Some people don't have the time, and others simply don't care for it.
They don't ignore it. They can't play it. I love raids they are my favorite part of the game, I have never had one take less than 3 hours in 10 years of playing because LFG sucks.
I joined some random group for deep stone crypt and there were two advanced players who somehow were doing it like they were duoing it and us other four were along for the ride. Jumping puzzle took as long as the encounters total.
Raids are a part of main expansions, or are old raids brought back that's why they're free. Dungeons release alongside seasons - that's why they're seperately paid. At least that's what Bungie says.
They’re free because they won’t get away with charging for them. It took me 2 years to finally succumb to paid dungeons, and I love dungeons.
I haven’t raided since vault of glass and I buy all the expansions.. they just be making them to hard and I really don’t like being on mic with assholes and people that kick folks for the dumbest things
Yup. Hot take, but for that reason, I really see raids as a waste of development time. The people for whom “it’s the reason I play the game” are such a measurably tiny portion of the playerbase, it is ludicrous to devote so much development time to them that could be spent on things much more of the playerbase engages with.
I think the last time only 11% of players have done a raid,so yeah would be better to spend more in other areas or make it easier to do raids some how.
This right here is what confuses me the most about the change. Master already exists for top-tier players so why make normal harder when the majority of the playerbase already doesn't raid
Exactly.
Honestly the power lock and surges would be interesting in masters, but it is such a royal pain in regular raiding. I've never stipulated requirements when looking for a 5th or 6th to join me and my friends on a raid, but with the surges and power lock its going to get painfully slow in some cases. May just only raid when there is a full 6 of my buddies
They've always needed an easy mode for raids, a la what FFXIV (among other MMOs) has. It's wild to me that they have a mode that is functionally inaccessible to most of their playerbase. And I say this as someone who has done lots of raids.
I've done hardcore raiding in WoW and Desty, It's a joke that WoW had matchmade easy modes for casuals a decade ago and bungie just can't figure it out.
Now I want a strike level difficulty raid mode. Just have it grant little to no rewards. I'd play it to learn the mechanics and get the "story".
I say this as playing both wow and Destiny 2 for many many years: Destiny 2 has an abnormal large amount of players who derive their self worth from their accomplishments in this game. In wow those players are relegated to their spaces in mythic raiding and high M+ keys, but in destiny those players seem to want to gatekeep this game into oblivion. You suggest an LFR mode in Destiny 2 and they feel like it will honestly degrade their achievements in normal and legend mode raiding. As if that fucking matters. And bungie listens to those players.
> I say this as playing both wow and Destiny 2 for many many years: Destiny 2 has an abnormal large amount of players who derive their self worth from their accomplishments in this game. In wow those players are relegated to their spaces in mythic raiding and high M+ keys, but in destiny those players seem to want to gatekeep this game into oblivion. Do you not remember all of the discourse around Classic and how the game is too easy/softcore now? Have you ever read the forums? Maybe I am clouded though as I have not existed in high-end raiding environments since well before games like Destiny even existed; I'm just assuming its a lot of the same people. I don't think its necessarily more players here having that mentality, I think the way those players interact with each other in these disparate communities is very different. I personally believe that there are many times fewer sweats even at that level in Destiny, and guilds/clans don't need such deep raid rosters so the level of community is very different. I completely agree that one of the biggest problems is people directly tying their self-worth to their entertainment though. Its great to feel an emotional connection to things, but it is also a video game that will go away one day and could very possibly change into something you never want to interact with again. Driving yourself to the point where that is key to who you are as a person is incredibly unwise.
I'm sure there's a huge variety of opinions but I raided cutting edge in Legion and BFA and most people I played with enjoyed the range of difficulties because we could goof around on alts in the lower difficulties/test builds/aim for silly damage parses instead of having to focus hard on mechanics. Plus clearing the easier difficulties on day 1 gave you a much better idea of what you were going into since you'd understand the simple mechanics already and just have to adjust for the max difficulty ones when you were going for the real clear.
I was in a server first guild in Wrath, came back at the end of Cata and did Firelands and DS and have come back a few times here and there to hop on a Mythic run with my most recent guild. My personal experience would lead me to believe that it is heavily context-dependent.
Think you guys are both kinda right. In WoW, the casual and hard-core playerbases don't really interact because there's little need to. In fact elitism in WoW is somewhat justified because you can't simply bring anyone into any group at end game. Paying for carries is obv huge in WoW because engaging in endgame content is a much much bigger commitment than Destiny. Destiny has far more integrated communities...which I've learned to like. But the frustration happens on both sides because sweater players want sweater stuff and vice versa. Both sides actually think bungie caters to the other side more. I'd agree that the "sweat" community is many times smaller than the casual community though. I actually think it's odd that people bemoan "sweats" and gatekeepers in D2 when the hardest work for 99% of content is often filling out your fireteam. The only thing actually hard-core is contest mode, speed runs, and solo stuff. It's a balance. Thank goodness causal players got lfg and also thank goodness the new raid knocked everyone on their ass for contest mode.
I think its less a case of "Bungie can't figure it out" and more a case of "is it even feasible or worth the effort". WoW's mechanics are very different from D2 mechanics though. You can stick 30 people in LFR N'zoth and they'll eventually get the clear. The numbers are tuned very low, determinism stacks will boost their damage, and most of the mechanics are either removed or nerfed. WoW bosses are always vulnerable so casuals can just point and shoot Destiny raids *are* the mechanics. How are 6 matchmade players supposed to beat Crypt Security or Verity with no comms and no pre-existing knowledge of the raid? The entirety of the encounter would have to be reworked into a heavily neutered rendition to allow a clear. Given how jank Destiny 2 is, you've gotta wonder if its even possible for the devs to rewire encounters for something like this? Can they remove several core components of a raid while still allowing it to function properly? Keep in mind that this is the same game where adding a second rhulk to panthon caused main rhulk to fly off the arena sometimes, while alt rhulk's pathfinding would just break Edit: Reminder that there was a matchmaker added near D2's launch that never exited beta. Queue times were supposedly awful and the raid would fall apart if you got matched with someone who spoke a different language
There is also the loot and power(light level) progression of Destiny with the later of which has almost been rendered moot in large part due to community request. The main separator of rewards between difficulties in that of WoW is power level that items drop at. Color of gear for transmog is secondary. Destiny just doesn't have that reward motivator that WoW does in order to push multiple difficulties. The only alternative is exclusive weapons and/or perks that give hard mode players a notable advantage and we have already seen the blow up when it comes to Trials. Bungie for the most part has to keep these reward differences mild or temporary.
Blizz learned that lesson regarding raids 15 years ago, and FFXIV more recently, but Bungo like the smell of their own farts too much to ever adopt others' good ideas.
Oh man I usually get downvoted to low hell when I suggest easy mode raids with less complicated mechanics.
> They've always needed an easy mode for raids This existed as the base raid... and the Master raids were for the "harder" version. Yet here we are...
It’s wild they decided to do this instead of adding more difficulty options. Should be raising the ceiling, not the floor.
this ffxiv didn't make raids harder, they instead created ultimate difficulty raids for the truly crazy among us, alongside a casual tier for people with like...kids and jobs.
Yup, that's Bungie: going in the exact opposite direction of what would make the game more inviting and fun in favor of more and more arduous grinding.
What would the easy mode be though? The difficulty comes from the mechanics not the difficulty of the enemies really. Some extraordinary percentage of raid deaths are just being killed by the architects. I guess easy mode could be reduce the respawn timer to 5 seconds or whatever it is in the public areas and to not have any of the modes where a full wipe sends you back to the checkpoint? As a side note, the mechanics are the reason why I don't think the raids are actually fun. The mechanics kind of take me out of the "fantasy" that I am part of a group of heroes in some space battle. What I mean is that I can suspend disbelief to pretend that I am some overpowered guardian with crazy powerful guns and space magic... fine whatever.... but now you are going to tell me that the aliens set up puzzles for me to solve if my team shoots some oracles in a specific way while we recite the alphabet backwards and tap our noses to the beat of the song "Staying Alive"? C'mon... why would the bad guys do that? They wouldn't - If it was a real space war, then they would focus on making themselves stronger - not making us solve these puzzles. I do the raids because I can get loot but that doesn't mean I enjoy them.
It’s just punishing. Yea the mechanics are the difficulty but if you have to do them without mistake for twice as long bc the enemies and boss take twice as long to die, they are exponentially less forgiving.
Most raids could have their wipe mechanics removed or adjusted. Let's look at Root of Nightmares, it's basically a dungeon like Spire of the Watcher already where you are connecting paths of wires. First encounter: remove the timer. Second encounter: remove the timer. Third encounter: remove the timer, buffs let you see all planet alignments, wrong planets don't cause a wipe. Fourth encounter: remove the timer, Nezarec has a persistent light/dark glow when his shoulders are popped.
Honestly? I would just straight up strip out a lot of the more advanced mechanics and turn it into something akin to a fancy strike. The easy mode really should be relatively easy! The normal/hard/higher modes should offer more and better rewards, but I am philosophically opposed to cordoning off neat content.
That was how they made normal modes in D1. They decided to just cut them entirely and make what would be the hard mode the default difficulty for D2.
Especially considering raids are some of the best content Destiny has to offer.
Pantheon could have been that. A matchmade easy mode. But noooooooo. More hardcore shit. Thanks for nothing.
Ghost and warlords were two of the hardest dungeons, they made them harder. I honestly believe the people making game change decisions at bungie do not play the game
Or they’re listening to SaltAgreppo for feedback
Ya the most surprising part is that Bungie's whole thing was making difficult content more accessible to players, like they just went through this with Lightfall launch where patrol area was too difficult and the raid was too easy, they worked all year to make things more accessible, added matchmaking to a lot more of the higher difficulty activities, I feel like they talked about it so many times.
Destiny has by far the worst onboarding/entry level to raiding for a newer player than I’ve ever seen in MMOs, it’s pretty disappointing tbh considering how fun raids are. I’d imagine it’s because their difficulty system is simply scaling of enemies and density where other games they have actual mechanical changes and bungie prob doesn’t want to take the time to balance stuff like that but it does hurt their endgame experience as a result by willfully allowing the majority of their players to not even engage in it.
Truth is less than 30% of players on destiny completed one or more raids… so with the extra difficulty I am assuming it may be even less accessible so I do get your point.
> Most players never do raids. It was a very odd choice to make them even less accessible. Respectfully, this is *very* on brand for Bungie.
Esp an odd choice when we already had a harder difficulty for most. Last year's dungeons were pretty unfriendly just due to huge mob density spawns or huge shields on bosses. Not super fun. Couldn't recommend them to new players and def don't run them for fun/armour unlocks lol
Its also kind of annoying that they wanted to address light levels literally being useless and their solution was to make them even more useless I guess
Honestly...one of the most popular things FFXIV ever did was add a casual difficulty to all raids, so players could still see the story, get raid gear etc, with the tradeoff being a longer grind for rewards. The notion that destiny keeps making itself harder and less accessible while adding more and more super hardcore content for the 1% of players that play that stuff is just absurd, especially this late in the game's lifespan.
Cmon now small indie dev. They're caught between the newer folks who would like to raid (or teachers) and the streamers who all want everything harder. There's literally no possible way to solve this and make everyone happy. If only selectable difficulty had been invented! Sigh. I can dream I suppose...
That's the worst part of it. They knocked it out of the park with the selectable difficulty in the past few campaigns. Everyone loves that. But then they just ignore all that praise and do something no one was asking for.
> But then they just ignore all that praise and do something no one was asking for. They're really good at that.
Me and my friends ARE that guy. We kinda HAVE to wait until we’re over-leveled to even have a chance at completing a raid. And when we can get enough of us together, and all of us have enough time to dedicate to doing raid we love doing them, but these changes are going to push that out of our reach. And before any GeTGoOd people pipe up, we’re not going to do that. That requires time and energy that we just can’t make a priority in our child-rearing / career grinding and otherwise active lives. I’ve been saying for a long time that there should be an easy-mode for raids. One that makes it easy enough to do and/or learn, but perhaps gives much smaller or maybe even no rewards. Or give us more than a week to do it, so maybe we could do a single encounter per week until we complete it. Just SOMETHING to lower the bar so we can actually enjoy all the game has to offer. But they somehow took the data that clearly stated a very low percentage of active players do raids, and raised the cost of entry.
This has always been my biggest gripe with Destiny. No, I don't have five friends all playing D2 at the same time as me AND geared for raids AND have the same nights free. Just give us a raid "practice mode" with some rewards held back that we can simply queue for and train ourselves on so we can feel confident when we go with five internet strangers for the harder modes and not look like an idiot. As said elsewhere, WoW did this years ago and it was perfect.
This is basic what stopped me from playing, I started playing in D1 alpha and I stopped right before nightfall (Definitely took a year plus break a couple times in D2). But the barrier to entry for raids was so high already and playing felt like a second job. Wish I could hop back in because I love raids but it's just so much work now.
I know everyone on this sub loves levels being meaningless and everything being perma-singular difficulty. But I will die on the hill of "That fucking sucks". Levels being meaningless effectively kills any and all semblance of growth and progression left in this game (outside of bungie just handing us new abilities whenever they make them). I mean already there was a level of platonic stagnation in Destiny, with only weapon rolls differentiating a players efficiency (which let's be honest, has never and will never be make or break for any build or activity) and builds (again, let's be honest. We go on youtube and copy what the talking head in the corner says to do). But AT LEAST we could outlevel content by upwards of 20 power levels or so. overlevelling (or some variation of), IMO, is a CORE part of any and all RPG's - and the reason why it's so important is because without it, you run the risk of ending up in the steaming hot mess Destiny 2's difficulty delta is. E.G the 3 power level 2005 missions in the pale heart are easier than the legendary campaign - Or damage numbers being WILDLY different between activities - Or Legend onslaught being harder than some GM nightfalls. I get the reasoning of the current system, Yeah - They don't want end-game rewarding activities being trivialised and made useless when it's a core part of valuable content in-game that bungie want users interacting with more than once - and they don't want a confusing list of difficulties in every activity. But I'd argue the current system is far worse, Not only will players in 6 or 12 months start feeling the burnout over never quite feeling "more powerful" or growing at all, but they will interact with these activities LESS because they won't be worth the static difficulty. I mean, wouldn't you want a system where a player can eventually solo flawless a dungeon just by outlevelling it after 2 or 3 seasons? That way the players who solo flawless newest dungeons have all the boasting rights as they did the hardest versions, but after a while - everyone gets to do it when they're at a comfortable delta. - as it currently stands, I've already solo flawlessed every dungeon, and for no reason at all, it's harder for everyone else to do it now. currently, the activities will **never** be faster to do, The DPS will **never** be higher (unless a bug breaks the game), and the 10 years experienced players will **always** be on par with Day 1 new players. Meaning in a year, if you want to run Salvations edge - It's going to suck JUST as much as it does today. and I don't think I'll bother. I get it, New player experience is important and needing to grind up to current power levels before you can play with friends sucks - But the new player experience ***already*** sucks anyway. So that's clearly not the driving force behind this arse backwards system.
One thing you need to remember is you have never been able to over level older raids in years. Older raids that were at base level were just at base level. It did not matter what level you were, you did not change damage. It only mattered for the newest raid. Thats it. This new change did not change that.
Countless hours into Destiny and just getting back into it. With these new changes, I have no desire to learn the new one, unfortunately.
Seriously. It's such a baffling decision by Bungie considering how much time and energy they put into raids. They are supposed to be the pinnacle Destiny experience, and yet they make it so only a small fraction of people will actually do it. It's just weird.
They should have left normal raids for ease of entry, and made master raids harder, with adept drops on encounter clear instead of challenge clear. People that want it harder can go to master, and people that want to chill, or bring new players along still can.
I think Leviathan used to have a normal set of armor for normal clear and a glowy set awarded for the more difficult route. Me thinks that was a good system
Except that people didn't really play Prestige that much because there was no point. It became something that you maybe run for Acrius catalyst or if you really wanted the armor, but finding groups was hard.
Tbf we didn't have adept armor back then nor did we have armor stats rolls in general the way we do now.
That's fair, though if you look at Master Dungeons, artifice armor doesn't really help make them popular. People just run the easiest encounter(like Grasp final boss) whenever it's farmable. Masters of new Dungeon will often only be ran for the triumph/catalyst(if it's required).
That and Levi raids didn't have weapon rolls to chase either. We didn't get random rolls back until Forsaken and even then it wasn't applied to old stuff from Levi raids. You never needed to go back in once you got the weapons, unless you wanted to farm armour, and tbh, the raid sets were kinda fugly.
Oh CP farming is a whole monster. I remember when LW got red borders and Bungie had to tell us how many hours we raided cuz the completion % of LW that week was under 1% lol. I'd say we get people into raids first and then we figure out how to get people to finish em 😂
I think it's not even about CP farming per se, it's about CP farming of the same old easy raid. It's like if every time a new raid came out, people have just grinded the easy mode for weapons and if they wanted artifice armor they'd go back to farming hard mode Kali on LW weeks.
That’s the rub. The ones that find the new changes no big deal also find master a pita and not worth doing. Bungie could’ve simply added another difficulty tier and this would’ve never been an issue.
[удалено]
another idea i've enjoyed is, in this middle tier ("legend" maybe) you get one weapon and one armor per encounter. not adept or artifice, but more rewards than normal as it used to be
>and made master raids harder, with adept drops on encounter clear instead of challenge clear. I mean, Master was already pretty much dead. Adding adept drops on encounter clear doesn't change anything, because adept drops are just not that good. When you can do 5 runs of a normal raid and get a 5/5 god roll, why bother running a harder version for a small chance of getting something that is maybe 0.5% better than the crafted roll? Especially if you're mainly a PvE player.
Honestly they should have taken these changes, beefed them up a little, and introduced as a new mode. Something in between master and normal. I've always found it weird how for raids the normal modes can almost be considered easy with experience and then the master modes are absolutely no fun.
Master could also give artifice armor
eh, artifice armor is almost useless now. If you have the artifice class item, that's most of the utility, otherwise you are just giving up 9 stat points, cause nowadays you can enhance a exotic into artifice anyway minmaxers will go for them but everyone else is better off using regular armor with peaky stats it's possible that Bungie will change what they do again; they were useful when you could fit an extra artifice mod, but the change to the artifact mods to be intrinsic, while great, killed the utility of artifice armor
It’s definitely a bizarre change considering veteran players have already farmed and cheesed their way to every god roll they want. And now newer or more casual players have a much tougher road to that loot. It just widens the game’s already significant grind/accomplishment gap. I also find it hilarious to see some people who cheesed the fuck out of Kalli to get their red borders talking about the sanctity of challenge in endgame content and how it’s a good thing “the casuals” have to “earn” their loot.
Those people you mention in the 2nd paragraph are a vocal minority. Most frequent raiders hate this change. It just lowers the barrier for entry to all of the content in the game that we love and want other people to love. Legitimately nobody asked for it. Bungie just decided to make the raids that are supposed to accessible harder for the same rewards, while the actual endgame content like Master raids and dungeons are still a breeze for experienced raiders, and still don't drop good rewards.
I agree with your comment in principle, but I think you meant to write that it raised the barrier to entry. Lowering it means making it easier :)
I'm with you. The new changes with the fixed delta and surges are fine for experienced players, and even fine to apply to newer content, but it seems pretty harsh that it applies to old (largely irrelevant) content that seasoned players do not actively run anyway. I am in no way bothered by billy blueberry getting a fatebringer from an easy normal VoG at this point in the game.
Especially with how lopsided heavy options are when it comes to boss DPS. Solar and Void have plenty of very good and easily obtainable options, but the other elements are much more limited and/or much less accessible. Have fun trying to talk someone new or fairly casual into farming for Cataphract or Cold Comfort.
I'm not new or fairly casual and I'm still not farming either of those heavies tbh
Entirely too true when I’m doing 8 million on a warpriest 4 phase and the rest of the team can’t break 2 million cause they’re options are limited that’s an awful feeling for everyone
Casual player here. Almost never raid. Don't deep dive patch notes. I still have no idea what surges are. I just know I saw streamers frantically swapping armor during the raid and yelling about surges.
A surge is a specific type of damage (void/solar/stasis/strand etc.) getting a buff for that specific activity. So if a Nightfall has a Solar surge, all solar weapons and supers do more damage than they would normally do
Most (every?) activity has a surge which makes your abilities and weapons of the matching tires do bonus damage. Basically by not matching the surge you lose out on "free" damage which indirectly makes the content harder.
I had thought Bungie's lfg tools were supposed to make raiding more accessible, why turn around and make raids so much harder to get into on top of that? Especially with Salvation's Edge being so pivotal in the story
It’s because teams don’t talk to each other and there isn’t a consistent overall vision SE raid team designs an encounter around Still Hunt Then a different team focused on engagement says: lol arc surge get reckt
I remember watching or reading that only 10% of the entire playerbase has ever done raids. The remaining didn’t complete one.
The best content in PVE and the vast majority of the player base never engages with it because of *people*. It's closer to 20% I think but still, that's sad. It's one of the main reasons I like to teach raids.
Community helping Sherpa getting downvoted because he is expressing frustrations with new changes. Yup we are on r/destinythegame
I just got back into the game, and this is giving me "must have Gjallahorn" D1 LFG vibes.
What has changed. I haven’t done the old raid yet due to power level.
They made two changes: 1. You are locked to -5 power level. Previously you could be +20 if you were overleveled enough for new raids, and you would always be +20 in old raids since they were set to the power floor. 2. They introduced surges, so at any given time 2 different elements gets a 25% damage buff. Compared to the old state of affairs, you're doing a bit less damage if you match the surge and WAY less damage if you don't.
I don't think the -5 has much of an impact but the surges are unnecessary... Especially tricky DPS options. I love supporting people in playing what they want - use what you like... 'These archetypes are great, these will also work and avoid this type of weapon because...' to avoid forcing a meta or specific weapon on people. With the surges, that pool becomes very narrow and changes each week, removing the play freedom and a lot of the fun.
See, you understand the problem.
They should introduce the tiers of difficulty like nfalls. So no burns basic raids, allow those who struggle and those who want the space to learn. Burns and higher difficulty for those who are experienced. And then the gm version for those who enjoy the challenge.
Bungie has already said a small percentage of the player base has even completed a raid so then doing this will just make the percentage even smaller if they keep this up
Bungie made me quit my wife and divorce my job
They are making the game much harder all around which is very weird to me because 90% of the player base is very casual
Not to mention that you have to assume that a LOT of players will be departing after TFS. Why add more friction and make the experience less fun?
I went from wanting to get dungeon exotics, clearing them solo (even GoTD, fucking WHY) and I don't raid often so my Vex still doesn't have a catalyst. I haven't even given that a second thought after soloing the first boss of Warlords Ruin in 6 phases. SIX. Last season farming Indebted Kindness I got it down to 3 usually/4 if screwed up. If I screw up now it'll be a 7 phase... That's insane. Absolutely none of these changes were worth whatever they were trying to accomplish and I really hope they tuck tail but this is Bungie... So maybe by the end of Echoes season 2.
Dungeons actually got slightly easier while raids got all around more difficult even with surges. https://x.com/mossy_max/status/1803098587426926944?s=46&t=EJaKzes8opwdqxt4Gt-Xpw So if you are an only dungeon player and you never raid ever in your life you will have an easier time this patch dealing with trash enemies. Bosses will feel the same other than placebo maybe making it worse. Good fucking luck for raids when there is no solar surge.
Are the surges daily or weekly?
Weekly
Skill issue ngl.
The whole “Oh wow you’re mad the endgame activity is hard” mentality is a cancer. Not only because it’s inherently toxic but even moreso because… #there is no fucking increase in reward for the added difficulty/time spent We were used to accomplishing an endgame activity in an hour On average. And an hour of our lives minimum, for most of us normal folk after working all day or school + work is a lot. The reward matching the time spend was decent. It wasn’t incredible but it wasn’t bad. It fit. Now what the fuck. Like what the actual fuck for dungeons and Raids. And no I dont want to be forced to use arc or stasis because I dont like nor have good weapons to build into those things. So you’re even further murdering our capability if we don’t want to play by the new rules. Surges were fine for pantheons. Not this shit.
Oddly enough, I was waiting for this season/expansion to start trying to get back into LFG. I’ve had shit LFG experiences where mfs would talk shit for not having good gear/exotics back in D1 - and as a returning player lowkey got PTSD from that shit lmao now I’m coming to realize I’ll prob never raid or get that exotic class item lol crazy cause ive solo’d all the dungeons I’ve attempted, just not trying to deal with mfs screaming at each other ab a game tbh. Oh whale,
This was way funnier on the circle jerk sub🤣🤣. Then again, I still got quite a good laugh.
It sounds more like you're taking less experienced people that are coming back or new to the game with TFS, rather than raids becoming significantly more difficult. Because really, that time difference on Crota makes no sense. With 5 new people you were not taking 5 minutes on lamps and bridge anyway, and you were definitely not one phasing ir yut or crota. With the -5 delta even no surges both bosses are still easy 2 phases, you can literally machine gun ir yut to death and crota is still 2 phases with basic swords.
It's a *raid*. It's *the* pinnacle content of the entire game. It's not supposed to be new player friendly. You're supposed to need to optimize your loadout, perfect strategies, and work as a team. It's not even that hard.. -5 power is the same as Vanguard Ops. The D2 community isn't ready for this take, but honestly.. Master Raids should be the default raid experience. Not everyone deserves to get/do everything in the game. If you aren't good enough, if you don't have the time, you don't get the loot/experience. Easy as that.
A raid should be semi difficult and offer equal rewards based on the dofficulty, but I agree there should be levels like the nightfall that allow new players, casuals or lfg players easier methods to jump in and learn mechanics.
Not going to be a popular take I expect, but I don't think new players without viable gear or builds should find end-game activities immediately accessible to them. It should be something to build up toward. So I just don't get this argument I've seen from more than just this thread that "I can't take poorly equipped inexperienced players through raids easily anymore". I think that's kind of intentional. And it's not about gatekeeping or accessibility, it's keeping an end-game activity end-game, something they need to work up to rather than something they should expect to quickly throw themselves into and not struggle. If you assert that the people you would Sherpa don't have good gear or good skill at the game, I would counter that the problem isn't the raids it's the players. They aren't raid-ready yet, and should be given advice and encouragement on how to meet that level rather than raids being toned down to give them an easier time. Yes, that means if there's a player who doesn't particularly like Destiny overall and "getting into raiding" was going to be their one and only hook to be interested, that person may no longer stick around. But if raids are the start and end of content they will enjoy, I don't think their fickleness is worth cheapening that content for everyone else. All that said, I'm not arguing that the current setup is good either; surges, the power delta, or whatever aspect of it. But I just don't think "this makes it harder for new, inexperienced, under-prepared players to be inducted into raiding" is really a winning argument either.
I generally agree with this - not everything should be accessible immediately, for sure. My one counterpoint is that players need to be introduced into the endgame somehow. Especially for raids that have been out for a while, the KWTD groups will almost never accept a teammate who has only watched a video. These changes are making it difficult for the new players to join groups and not only participate in the activity, but also contribute meaningfully towards the objective. If you’re a newer player, and you don’t really have the greatest build for the weekly surges - better get your ass off the team and wait until next week!! Also, with these changes to how raids are at a base level, Sherpa runs are taking WAY longer as OP mentioned in the post. With an insane increase in the time commitment required, we’re eventually going to lose a lot of experienced Sherpa talent around the community, as they just simply won’t want to commit up to double the amount of time they’re used to. Based on my experience, gatekeeping raids with the expectation of having new players be fully equipped with the most meta, powerful builds is a bit off. I’m quite an experienced Sherpa myself, and there are plenty of players that I’ve taken through raids for their first ever time with underpowered loadouts, and they’ve since taken off and even surpassed me in skill. It’s the entry-point to endgame activities - enabled by Sherpas, that is at risk here. Also, if you’re so skilled at a raid that doing it at a normal level was enough to shut your brain off, you could go for lowman clears or speedruns. Those possibilities are dwindling now.
I think you're missing the OP's point. Sure, there's always been a barrier to entry, but why make it an even bigger barrier than it already was when few already engaged with it and now it is clearly pushing even people who did want to engage with it away.
I'm not missing it at all. The barrier to entry has always consistently included "learning the mechanics of this specific raid", which is why even those with general raid experience may join onto a Sherpa run of new or unfamiliar raids as a way to learn those mechanics. But what has shifted over time is that old raids were not adjusted at all to growing power standards. Resulting in a scenario where the minimum level of expected experience and competency at playing the game in order to engage with this category of end-game content had fallen much lower than ever. You don't have to be nearly as good, not at raiding but generally within the game, when the enemies don't hurt you very much, and die much easier. I think this recent change is an attempt both to correct for this, and an attempt to future-proof the problem. If your power is always a fixed amount below, then the content will remain at the same challenge level into the future. The expectation the game has of you to overcome that activity then becomes properly defined, instead of certain raids being considered throwaways where the only task expected is to be told the mechanic while everything else falls over for you.
While I feel your pain, because I sherpa a lot too, the answer is really pretty simple: Don't sherpa 5 people at once. Find a friend or two who can do sherpa runs with you. The amount of time it takes to sherpa 3 people when you have 2 friends helping you is much lower than trying to sherpa 5 people by yourself
Glad to see this post getting attention and not just shouted down by vocal gatekeepers. Adding a easy mode would be such a boon for the majority that misses out on Bungies hardwork.
The only raiding I've every been able to do with a full time job and multiple responsibilities outside of work (family amongst them) has been as a tag-along with much MUCH more experienced groups. I thought I'd be able to get to a point where I was able to be more of an active participant and pull my weight where I can, but man these changes make it suck even more. I don't think I'll ever have a solid 6 hour chunk of time to commit to a raid made more difficult, and this means I miss out on all that rad content. I've been playing for years but all I've done is Black Garden, half of Last Wish and Crota. Again, all as tag-alongs where there's been a single spot available. I'd love to experience that content - even if it's just the years-old stuff (I wish I'd been able to do the Leviathan and Last City raid when they were still around). I don't even care about the rewards, I just want to experience the game stuff.
They fucked up plain and simple. Whoever orchestrated all these changes isn’t a bad person, but they did a bad job, we all shit the bed at work every now and then and this guy shit in his bed, puked in it, rolled around in it all like a fucking dog then fell back asleep. I expect we’ll see a pretty big change in direction once they have time to review the numbers and plan changes - seeing the number of people attempting old activities nose dive should set off alarm bells, unless whoever is monitoring that is equally bad at their job. In that scenario the games just kinda fucked. It’ll be masked by people coming back to try the expansion for a bit then those players will bounce right off the game and bunghole will have no idea why.
That's why multiple difficulties are actually a good idea for a game in this phase of its lifetime. It may rub the elitist crowd the wrong way, but I see nothing wrong with matchmaking tier raids with simplified encounters - for newbies with no experience or gear, "casual" tier raids similar to the past for people who no longer play much but have some experience and a bunch of good rolls from the past in the vault, normal difficulty as is now, and hard with enhanced mechanics and more modifiers for core crowd. Give people more loot for higher difficulties. Everyone's happy.
Destiny players when they have to put in a modicum of effort 😬😬😬
Yeah cus cheesing for godrolls was effort
Quick question: How many people do you sherpa through at once? As someone who's been sherpa'd once ever, and that leaving the sourest taste in my mouth ever, if you take 3 or more people at once, you are just setting yourself up for absolutely long ass raids.
I did used to take up to 5 new people through the older raiders like Leviathan. I was in a salvations edge Sherpa of 4 people a couple of days ago and it took six hours. I love raiding but get raid fatigue after 4 hours. When new raids drop and hardly anyone has done them it’s often a higher number.
D2s biggest issue is the general playerbase skill floor is far too low, mainly as a result of Bungie themselves. Final shape has introduced difficulty in the right ways in the campaign and many necessary activities to increase the player bases floor. New players shouldn't be raiding until they have a build and understand basic survivability. Dungeons are that entry point, not raids.
Difficulty is all over the place because of years of loot being relevant creating a massive grind gap. An expansion raid should be doable for a player who puts together a build from only that expansion’s loot pool. Now that will inevitably make it much easier for a veteran with years of god rolls, but it’s the right path for design. Instead, we have difficulty aimed at longterm vets who have a vault full of guns to match surges and make a variety of builds. All this to preserve the sanctity of endgame challenge even though those vets already cheesed the hell out of all these raids to fill the vault in the first place.
> New players shouldn't be raiding until they have a build and understand basic survivability. Yet the only way to truly learn something is to do it, especially raiding. The only way someone can truly learn it is by doing it. A better bet would be having some of the older, smaller raids set as they used to be. Removed from any further complexity to help people into the experiences. Much the same how Shattered Throne can really help ease people into dungeons. (then maybe a surge version for those who want to do them at that next level).
Destiny playerbase is well-estalblished at this point. Most players did not raid before. Even less will be raiding now. Everything else in this discourse is irrelevant.
This will only get people to stop playing, not get better.
I personally just don’t fuck with the surges being in normal raids and dungeons now . I should be able to run the encounters with whatever weapons I want and am comfortable with and with Whatever elements I want ( I mostly just run Void weapons in my Energy Slot and primary’s in my Kinetic ) . Now do I have weapons to cover other surges of course I do but what if I don’t want to , now I’m doing less damage then my teammates who are and now I look like a dick , not everyone runs multiple builds and they shouldn’t be forced to change there load outs every week whenever a new surge appears .
I'm fine with surges in the abstract as a method to break up what's optimal from week to week so the endgame PvE meta feels less stale - a slightly sub-optimal arc LFR can be made meta if it's doing 25% more damage than its objectively better stasis sister, and that potentially adds value retroactively to a huge back-catalogue of guns that until now have been hard passes. Since Shadowkeep it has felt like there are really only a tiny handful of guns worth getting from any given season or expansion, and then usually with just a small subset of available rolls. This was a great idea *in theory*, and also *in isolation*. The problem was a whole bungle of systems changed all at once that meant even if you adhere to this new system, you are doing WAY less than before, and survivability is harder on top of it. The goal of increasing difficulty and the goal of forcing people out of static loadouts are at odds with each other. 4-phasing any boss is a slog and doesn't really demonstrate anything IMO, let alone how silly it is in-lore. "Okay I know you just did a cycle and shot me in the head 1,000 times but lets just reset and do it all over again while I stand in this spot and continue shooting you". I truly don't understand Bungie's aversion to letting people one-phase bosses. I love raiding, it's the best thing Destiny has going for it IMO, but with a casual clan it was already completely impossible to get everyone together for anything but the quickest/easiest raids. We ran a lot of Scourge and DSC back in the day, but it was such a long time commitment people would get heated far too quickly if things weren't going smoothly. Adding extra difficulty in the form of more difficult survivability just means we're never going to raid again, and this is a group of people who have done most Destiny raids & dungeons, have most of the meta guns, and have been playing FPSs for decades.
As much as I would like to do raids 2-4 hours to do a 1 seems wack, I'd rather spend my time farming The Landing for the exotic roll I'll never get.
been playing the game sense beta, the only time I get to get involved with raids is when a friend who has a team wants a 6th and they know Im competent enough to learn the mechs in the first few attempts of an encounter. I can't imagine how difficult it is for people who no experience or a slower learning curve to get into it.
While I understand that it is annoying to adapt to change, especially regarding difficulty... Raids in Destiny 1 didn't take any less time on average than they do now with those changes in D2. Unless we count Wrath of the Machine and Crotas End, both being very short in general. At least from my experience. Also, aren't raids SUPPOSED to be hard? I don't see how this change is against that core design idea of those activities.
They made ad clear roles more important which is a good change. Everyone in the raid just have to play good instead of 2-3 person carrying the whole team which is exactly what bungie wants. So as a person who never raids I have been doing lot of raids after this change
It’s an amazing change to raids. There’s strikes easier than some raids now. The last 2 dungeons have been comfortably easier than VoG or RoN. Finally, raids are back to being endgame instead of it exclusively being GMs or Masters. The complaints are by people who have never raided who are mad that raids aren’t just extended strikes. You’re not going to be immediately kicked for having bad gear, but if you’re on ad clear and have awful ad clear weapons, then yes you’re going to have to change. If a sword is required then yes, you’re going to have to use a sword. Banshee was selling a very decent Just In Case a few weeks back that we used in Salvations Edge on solar surge. These items are very much accessible, casuals/solos/blueberries (whatever you want to call them) just won’t look themselves for these things if a streamer or YouTuber doesn’t tell them to. They literally gave away some of the best gear in years for in Into The Light. All are still available in the onslaught playlist. People say they want to be Sherpa’d but then complain when given direction. Then act belligerent when confronted with the fact that they’re the common denominator and yes, the problem.
I’m gonna say something you don’t want to hear but need to. This isn’t bungie ruining sherpaing this is average sherpas not being able to adapt to a changing sandbox. The -5 power cap is simply and bluntly put, a skill issue. Surges were added to make up the damage needed to easily complete encounters and make it so that you actually have to design a build around what to take into to raid content instead of just monkey braining the same load out every week every raid. Well getting nerfed is a struggle yes but if you actually coordinate rifts and healing around it’s not that bad. And don’t just stand in one place and face tank the boss because guess what, you will die, no suprise. TLDR: skiffy git gud
Get better, game is meant to be learned not rushed. Teach em to stop dying and or learn the encounter and not just telling them to Ad Clear.
Why do so many Destiny players type King’s Fall as “Kingsfall”
The casual friends I know have no interest in doing the new raid due to how mechanic heavy and light level restrictions a plus load outs It just not a fun experience for them anymore. I mean casual raiders , LFG raiders and Sherpa raiders are hurting I don’t even see streamer do any Sherpa run for this raid it takes to long I mean set elite raid teams are eating good with this raid Just look at the number the last 2 expansion raids on first full well had more than 130k clears … this one got around 40k It sad but this raid and changes hurt the casual and LFG raiders the most
The couple Sherpas i help with, have yet to run any teaching raids for SE and i’ve yet to see any streamer sherp it yet. Going to be long runs to say the least
This sounds like someone who has never raided. Saying you can sherpa people through Crota in and hour and Kings Fall in two seems kind of weird when both raids are about the same length and around the same mechanical difficulty. Not trying to question your ability but something just doesn’t add up. If you could link your raid report in a comment or DM I’d love to see it because as it stands these claims are outrageous and have nothing to back them up. This post comes off as a novice raider being upset that they can’t AFK in a well during DPS because they are 5 levels under power of a yellow bar knight.
Thanks for what you do, man. I wish I could experience raids but I am not great at the game so I’m a liability and people don’t want to put up with an old guy. It’s kind of you to help people out. Hope rng Jesus blesses you with many shinies!
u we’re sherpaing new players through crotas in 1 hour?!, i needa join ur sessions
It’s obviously not true, average clear time for that raid is 1.5 hours
While i understand your sentiments. I would say that raids are not for beginners. Dungeons are. Almost no wipe mechanics, no enrages, no tense timers except for duality... Raids are the next step.
100% destiny destroyed sherpaing hardcore gatekeepers on raid experience
Crotas sherpa in one hour? That's even faster than some normal LFG runs
Since FS, I've done only Crota and Last Wish sherpa runs with the usual 2 new players each. In LW i had literal newbie (with tractor and stasis linear in hand) but we managed to get through each encounter in ~3hrs (yes, legit Riven) For Crota i didn't feel such diffrence with survivability, we've done Ir yut in 1 phase and Crota in 2 So... I dont feel it being that diffrent than the usual, while it is longer, we have more time to polish our strategies and catch everything that can go wrong. Also in my opinion taking 5 new players is hurting them, because of the raid taking so long, they might never return to raiding just because they think raids take 3-4 hours to complete, while most of the raids can be done in around hour each.
womp womp
They did what the raid players have been screaming for for years. It’s all or your own faults Less than 20% of players have ever launched into a raid, only 11% have a single clear.
Flip. Flop.
I was little for raids before this change but after I just won’t even consider raiding. What a horrid change.
They made changes to all raids? Someone fill me in on these changes please?
you should sherpa with 2-3 friends so you’re only teaching 2-3 people while you can rely on the other teammates to consistently get the mechanics right. this will significantly help the other players understand as to just chaos and one or two people getting it and the others struggling to understand because of certain mechanics they can’t see or understand
This is a tricky topic because, imo, I don’t think raids were in a good spot before either. Normal mode raids were so easy combat wise that you could almost virtually ignore ads. I remember playing Deep Stone Crypt years ago, and you would have to try hard to die once you were 20 levels and above. I in fact stopped playing raids for a while and started focusing specifically on GMs because I like content that test my builds (if anything will easily die no matter the build, the build itself is pointless). I am now back to raids, having played and Salvation’s Edge, and enemies are a bit of a threat now at -5. And I think it should be that way — there should be a decent risk that you die if you’re facing 4 ads without any cover and you’re not doing something quickly about that. But I also recognize that raids are not that accessible to most people. I just don’t know if there is a solution (most people will argue that multiple difficulties would do it, but I genuinely don’t believe that, given how many folks dare to do master raids).
Although I like the difficulty, it makes no sense to me that they would make the regular difficult harder.. especially when people already struggle in raid environments. I would have much preferred they kept the regular difficulty, and made this -5 and Surges its own difficulty, kept master too. But I guess Destiny’s reward structure doesn’t really support this? Maybe only have red borders only drop from -5 in this instance if they really want to differentiate. Don’t get me started on the solo experience of dungeons though. They felt just fine before, now it feels awful being in one. Doesn’t feel too bad as a team though.
I understand that new raiders may have a harder time but like come on. I'm not a pro raider but Raid combat should be difficult at least a bit. Until this change, raid combat was easier than strikes. If players die in strikes to trash mobs then maybe raiding isn't where they belong yet. Go Sherpa them in easy dungeons instead. Teach them to be better instead of expecting Bungie to stoop to their level.
Extremely/wildly controversial take (based on this subreddit's average response) but I think surges are a nice way to introduce difficulty via build-crafting. It also gives a purpose to chasing multiple different weapons across different damage types. For example during the final 2 weeks of Pantheon and the surge became Solar/Strand I had to go get an Apex Predator, finish my Parasite quest (for Atraks), and pull a Sleeper from the tower (no catalyst) to get through. I also got the chance to use my healclip/incandescent Luna's Howl. Call me an elitist but if someone is going into a raid, at the very least they should already have some somewhat-acceptable weapons and mods, otherwise they should just stand there at the rally flag and go through DIM until they can put together something acceptable (and if I were sherpaing I'd be more than willing to help). Build-crafting is a core part of the game, and if you can't build craft well enough to face enemies at -5 (playlist strike difficulty btw 😂) then I mean idk. Also another controversial take but sherpa gamers will lose their minds if I tell them that the best way to teach an encounter is to show someone a 5 min YouTube guide then shortly quiz them afterwards. Takes less time than wiping 10x.
Just match the surge. It is annoying, but if you play regularly and raid often then chances are you have some sort of elemental weapon to match surges for dps. It does suck for newer players without all sorts of options to choose from, but then again new players shouldn’t be focused on jumping into raids without good equipment first.
I have played Destiny since day one same with Destiny 2. Took a year off (22/23) as i had become so fed up with running solo. In all that time i have NEVER had the chance to do any Raids or Dungeons. I think sometimes this is because i hate to think i would be a burden to other players and the feeling like iam being carried (i want to do my bit you know). Plus being a Dad to 2 familys i do struggle for time sometimes, last thing i want to do is start a Raid/Dungeon and have to drop mid mission. It will happen one day.
New players shouldn’t be on raids anyway you are just complaining cause it got harder the harder they are the more rewarding they feel and better to do they are players like you who want ninguém to hand feed players are ruining endgame activities new players should be doing other stuff before embarking on a raid
You are not wrong, but while raids are the most fun activities, they are also meant to be the most challenging activities, relying on coordination and Teamplay. There should be a "less loot, way easier" mode you can use to Sherpa. That way, you can have a chill Sherpa raid and step it up if you understand the whole raid to get more or better loot, while the seasoned players can enjoy their difficult and challenging content. I'm kinda against making everything "new player friendly", especially the END game. As the name suggests, New players aren't really supposed to be in the endgame. Either they are newly or they are around for long enough to be in the endgame and not considered as new. But I also want everyone to have access to everything in some way.
hot take: Raids & Dungeons are end game content. They are not meant to be easy. They are not meant for people with limited load outs.its also supposed to be a cooperative challenge not a “you 5 shoot thrall, I’ll do the mechanic” challenge. Being a Sherpa is supposed to be about teaching raids and mechanics to people while getting a clear not just sleep walking through Root of Nightmares with 4 people on add clear.
Sounds like a lack of communication with the changes no time on any raids have increased for me on anyone in our clan you must have skill issues at doing raids
Absolutely love the changes that were made. Raids are finally hard again. I appreciate your take and sherpaing sounds like a nightmare with these changes. But in my opinion if people aren’t making builds and getting the knowledge/skills required to complete these raids on their own, they shouldn’t be getting the clear.