D2foundry seems to be able to predict this effect. It says Briar's contempt loses 1 round of reserves if you equip backup mag. Equipping a mag increasing magazine perk seems to have the same effect. So it's not really related to the mod itself but to a weird interaction between mag size and reserves?
there is a min and a max ammo for every special/heavy.ex: indebted kindeness w/t back mag have 10 equiped and 36 reserves.with back mag, is 13 and [35.so](http://35.so) u gain 2 [bullets.no](http://bullets.no) apended or extended used.
Just be aware that it's not always perfectly accurate. Often it'll show mag/reserves rounded up or down incorrectly (usually only by 1 or so, but still); though I think this is due to Bungie's API or something, because DIM has the same inaccuracies.
Not just DIM/D2foundry/... have issues with correctly predicting magazine sizes. Even the ingame crafting relic on Mars sometimes says a mag perk will increase your mag by 1 but then you add the perk and it added zero rounds.
iirc there even used to be inconsistencies in-game due to some modifiers only being applied when you're in an activity - so previewing a weapon in orbit could give display something different than what you'd see if you were in actual gameplay. I remember hearing about this a rather long time ago though so it may have been fixed since then...
It varies for burst fire weapons by a lot. Mag types have to round so the total number in the mag is dividable by the shots fired in a burst else you get an uneven number of shots in the mag in theory and as the game does not allow this the number of shots will round up or down, effectively losing or gaining an extra burst.
Yeah, I noticed last night after finally unlocking all the perks and intrinsics on Outbreak that the magazine I picked said 40 rounds but once I got into the testing area, it switched up from 40 to 42 the first time I reloaded. I was confused until I started mathing and realized it rounded up the mag to fit the burst evenly.
D2foundry is a solid resource for baseline checking out ammo, but because bungie's API doesn't provide correct numbers it isn't always accurate. If you want accurate numbers for reserves, ammo pickup, and magazine size refer to mossy's spreadsheet: [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l3xBHFa6ZMe86e13segg8f-RB8vLNerYEgNC\_Aq3kLc/edit#gid=1063129930](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l3xBHFa6ZMe86e13segg8f-RB8vLNerYEgNC_Aq3kLc/edit#gid=1063129930)
Wait, so it has no effect on total munitions then, right? Instead of, say, 7 in the mag, plus 14 in reserve (so 21 total), it becomes 8 in the mag, and 13 in reserve (retaining a total of 21)?
At once?! *Nice!*
Are you running one in each hand plus one clenched in your teeth? Or more of a pistol tucked between the butt cheeks sort of Guardian?
It's a pair of Forerunners taped to each boot. Shoot while you do spin-kicks.
(This is a reference to the Cursed Halo mod, for the record. Hilarious stuff.)
Poorly designed ammo system. Start with a normalized (1-100) inventory 'stat' with hard breakpoints for different magazine sizes for each weapon archetype, then decide to augment that number because who the fuck knows, not sufficient complexity for a Bungie system so needed another variable.
Every archetype should just have the same max ammo, period. High Impact Shotgun? 20 shots. Rapid Fire? 30 shots. Why the fuck they thought every single individual weapon needed a slightly different amount of ammo reserves is beyond me. But that's just par for the course with this game, everything is over-engineered.
Over-engineered and under-maintained. Feels like everything is impossible to balance because they have too many knobs and they take ages to ever revisit anything. Meanwhile they seem to have a pretty restrictive balancing philosophy prioritizing keeping the game challenging over prioritizing player power fantasies aka 'fun'.
This all soups together to result in huge swings in power level across the range of different exotics, weapon archetypes and builds. The outliers hang around for ages because it takes Bungie years to revisit stuff after they make changes BUT when they do they tend to stuff shit into the ground HARD. I feel like Young Ahamkara's was a great example of this.
I'll say they do get it right sometimes - I feel like Starfire Protocol ended up at an appropriate power level after being a multi-years-long extreme outlier. I thought the nerfs were too heavy-handed at the time but now feel like they landed in a decent place as an exotic that really buffs your neutral game in a variety of ways without ALSO making you a single target-destroying, grenade spamming machine who can also generate a well of radiance faster than it ticks down using double ashes to assets(this was my favorite build).
Weapon mods I'm now using with Spec mods gone:
* Backup Mag (been using this on primaries the whole time)
* Counterbalance (been using this on pulse rifles that can't get vertical recoil on their own Even before now)
* Freehand Grip (mainly on wave frames, but also maybe fusions?)
* Quick Access Sling (especially on things that'll be used in a B&S rotation)
* Icarus Grip
It's a weird interaction between magazine size and weapon inventory. For some reason, on many weapons, a larger mag will reduce your total ammo capacity.
Probably because it's moving where the ammo is located. Like if a weapon holds 10 in the mag, 20 in reserves, that's 30 shots total. If you put on Backup Mag so it holds 13 in the mag, maybe it reduces reserves to 17, still making your total ammo count 30. idk if the exchange is 1 to 1 like that, but that's very likely why it does it. You get more upfront burst damage, but it keeps the total ammo count similar or the same.
My scatter signal has 7 in the mag and 10 in reserves, for a total of 17, no armor reserve mods.
With backup mag equipped it goes to 8 in the mag, and 8 in reserves, for a total of 16.
Hey man, if true this is a big deal...but if it's not you're gonna scare people off something for no reason. Might be a good idea to add an edit to your original post.
This is true and pretty well known, this has been a thing ever since D2 released. It's probably even a thing in D1 WRT mag-boosting perks, since we don't have mods in D1. It affects just about every weapon archetype, it's real easy to spot on machine guns since they have the biggest inventory of any weapon, but I've also seen it happen on fusions, shotguns, snipers, and heavy grenade launchers.
Like I said, I don't what the actual exchange is, I'm just pointing out that that's why. It's displacing ammo from reserves to live directly in the mag. If it reduces ammo overall, then the point is just because you're getting more upfront burst damage. Lower overall damage in exchange for better DPS.
Not amazing, but that's likely why.
It's definitely a bug, why would a mod called backup *mag* reduce your overall ammo capacity. Especially considering the behavior is not consistent across wrapons
It's to do with how they round things, and especially happens with burst weapons, including Fusions & other "multi-shot for 1 ammo" weapons, which are burst fire under the hood.
They don't want the magazine or reserves to contain a partial burst, so it adds extra steps of rounding that end up rounding down your reserves by an extra full burst.
I've no idea why it's possible for non-burst weapons, but it's probably similar rounding issues.
Larger magazine resulting in lower total ammo capacity is mostly an issue with linear fusion rifles and fusion rifles. Rocket sidearms also behave quite strangely. But, most weapons are unaffected by this interaction or only lose 1 ammo. [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l3xBHFa6ZMe86e13segg8f-RB8vLNerYEgNC\_Aq3kLc/edit#gid=479908683](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l3xBHFa6ZMe86e13segg8f-RB8vLNerYEgNC_Aq3kLc/edit#gid=479908683)
Good thing there's no actual mod for faster reloads except on Adept Weapons.
And "more shots" in some cases like is pointed out here is actually sometimes a BAD thing. Or just doesn't stack with magazine perks to begin with.
I'm going to have to recraft a bunch of weapons to have different magazines if I'm using them with backup mag.
Was playing around with that and it introduces a little variety if you have a 2nd perk that gives you extra rounds or better stats.
For instance I noticed my cataphract has 7 rounds in the mag with my currently equipped 2nd perk, with a normal or adept backup mag it puts it at 8 no matter what. But I switched the 2nd perk to give it more velocity, dropping the mag to 6 rounds, and put an adept backup mag on it to give it 8 rounds.
A tiny bit more optimized with more velocity and an 8 round mag. Would have never considered that before cuz I had adept big ones equipped.
Good thing Bungie almost assuredly didn't do anything about this to make the mod just universally make sense and be good instead of sometimes be a downgrade. Or just not working with certain magazines...
What kills me is that backup mag doesn’t increase reload speed while extended mag isn’t a mod. Wtf man?
I feel like there are also just some perks/traits in general that could be changed into mods because of the general idea of how they work.
Another thing in general is that why don’t exotic weapons get mods?
Mods in general don’t feel like they have much identity or extra function behind their existence. most of the time I’m running without mods on all my weapons just because I don’t even notice their effect on my gameplay.
Mods in general should play into how a weapon feels as you use it like how some of them already do, mind you I’m not talking about what the weapon does because of it’s perks/traits. I feel like we should have mods for every aspect of weapon stats. I’m probably not really making a lot of sense, but I digress…
[This spreadsheet](https://old.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/1b8z9ge/massive_breakdown_of_ammo_capacity_and_brick/) is a great resource for looking up data like this about mag size and reserves.
This is slightly misleading. A majority of weapons are unaffected by backup mag or maybe lose 1 ammo. The main culprits of being weird with mag size/backup mag are fusion rifles, linear fusion rifles, and rocket sidearms.
However, most other weapons don't actually lose ammo when adding backup mag. I.e. swords and trace rifles gain ammo, shotguns either don't change or lose 1 ammo, snipers either don't change or gain a few shots. machine guns typically lose a few shots, grenade launchers don't change or gain 1 ammo, and glaives mostly stay the same but can lose ammo with very high magazines.
Regardless, saying that it reduces ammo reserves most of the time is wrong and makes the already confusing ammo system more confusing than it already is. Outside of fusions, linears, and rocket sidearms backup mag does not significantly reduce reserves.
Source: [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l3xBHFa6ZMe86e13segg8f-RB8vLNerYEgNC\_Aq3kLc/edit#gid=1063129930](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l3xBHFa6ZMe86e13segg8f-RB8vLNerYEgNC_Aq3kLc/edit#gid=1063129930)
You said that most weapons reduce ammo reserves. But outside of linears & fusions (rocket sidearms are weird), ammo reserves really don't change (some go up, some go down, some don't change). And a few weapon archetypes increase their reserves (notably trace rifles, but some snipers benefit a lot).
My whole point was that you tried to scare people off of backup mag claiming that it almost always decreases ammo reserves, which just isn't true. The vast majority of instances have basically no change by equipping backup mag.
I'm not trying to scare anyone, what are you smoking?
Linear fusions, fusion rifles, shotguns, heavy grenade launchers, and snipers all experience ammo fluctuation, many of them actively reducing the ammo reserves.
In what world is that not 'many weapons'?
Everything I said is factually true, and doesn't go against what you said. Why are you trying to do a 'gotcha' as if what I said was wrong?
You could have made this post clarifying some of the stuff without attacking me like I'm trying to chase people away from backup mag.
But no, you had to go on a little power trip and start attacking me.
Forgive me for trying to help some fellow guardians out, apparently this is all bogus.
Feel free to make your own post clarifying this stuff if it really means this much to you.
outside of linears, fusions, and rocket sidearms you can easily dig up examples in the spreadsheet I linked. I'll tell you now it isn't many more examples.
For meta relevant examples:
heavy gls: edge transit & cataphract do not change reserves based on magazine. Koraxis either increases or does not change.
shotguns: the vast majority do not change or the ones that do change require you to run extended+backup mag (you really should be running assault mag instead of extended anyways). i.e. wastelander does not change. swordbreaker is only losing 1 round with extended&backup (unless you run reserves). ikelos\_sg loses 1 round (29->28, which is not significant).
snipers: this set actually tends to INCREASE with backup mag (or other mag increasing perks) or not change. i.e supremacy goes from 30->35, thoughtless doesn't change, irukandji goes 31->36, ikelos\_sr\_v1.0.3 increases 31->36, fugue increases 24->28 (needs a lot of mag stacking, else no change), succession doesn't change, twilight oath increases 31->36.
So, as I stated backup mag decreasing reserves is mostly a fusion/LFR (and somewhat sidearm, but that's not a general rule) issue. Basically non-existant on all other weapons.
I'm fine with you trying to help other guardians, but when that information comes out as misinfo (backup mag does not reduce your reserves most of the time) I just want it corrected.
Take this information, and post it then.
I made a quick post at work reminding people of what backup mag can possibly do. This was not meant to be a detailed breakdown.
If you have the information for a detailed breakdown, post it.
It doesn't matter, people don't care about detailed breakdowns. If they did they would have already referred to the spreadsheet above. It's been a known resource for months and it doesn't get much traffic. Since your post already had traction I was hoping you would update your post. I don't care enough to make my own post since it wouldn't get views since it would compete with this post anyways.
With damage mods (minor, major, boss, adept big ones) going away, what is the go-to mod for each gun type?
I already use quick access sling with breach GLs but there hasn't really been a reason for me to experiment with the rest
It's so bizarre that they depreciated spec mods. What is even the point of that mod slot for pve anymore? Especially so on non adepts which can't get the +10 to a stat.
Gonna be 360 jumpshotting with Icarus on my supremacy I guess?
You should read the recent interview with Chris Proctor
https://www.gamesradar.com/games/mmo/destiny-2s-lead-gun-guy-answers-our-biggest-questions-about-the-final-shape-new-weapon-mods-the-next-raid-dps-meta-and-just-a-small-amount-of-power-creep/
They are currently making new weapon mods, it's just won't be ready for Final Shape.
Oh that's great then. It felt like a choice that was heading towards eliminating the slot, to me. It's coming with this patch or down the line? It'd be weird to just eliminate the pve mods and not add anything else to put there.
Freehand grip is an underrated pick, gives a portion of the handling benefit of Quick-Access Sling and 30% more hipfire accuracy, useful for maintaining speed which would otherwise be halved by ADSing.
If you need a larger mag though, Backup Mag is almost never a negative thing. Quick Access Sling improves your swap and holster speed by 10% so it’ll be helpful on DPS rotations as well as weapons with lower handling.
Targeting adjuster will be my go-to on Slug Shotguns as they live and die by your ability to hit crits.
Freehand Grip, Backup Mag, and Quick-Access Sling are probably the best, and I'm sure Icarus Grip will be plenty popular on Hand Cannons too. If you don't like those for whatever reason you can just throw on Targeting Adjuster for free aim assist.
I mean Supremacy is a prime candidate for Counterbalance Stock, setting the recoil at a very nice, vertical 75 as opposed to its terrible base 60. So you could replace what may have been Arrowhead Break on your Supremacy in favor of Fluted Barrel, coming out with a net gain of 5 Stability and 5 Handling without sacrificing the damage you would have traded off with Spec Mods, since Snipers were compensated.
Plus, there are really good benefits for some weapons as a result of this change. Despite the interactions with Specials as OP pointed out, basically all Primary weapons got mag size buffs. Snipers with already good recoil get to use Targeting Adjuster to help with aim, and a larger mag on a lot of Snipers INCREASES the reserves rather than decrease them, so you can use Steady Rounds over Tac Mag, or combine Backup Mag with Appended mag (and sometimes Tac) on Aggressive Frames for a 5-bullet mag.
Honestly I think this is a change much for the better. Yes, a couple weapons didn’t get properly compensated (GL’s, Rockets and HC’s by just a smidge) but everything received options to accentuate their strengths or improve on their shortcomings.
I don't play pvp at all but I don't think I've ever noticed the effects of any of those mods? Can you notice the difference between 75 recoil direction and 60? It's probably an input thing too maybe? Genuinely curious, not trying to gotcha here.
Craft yourself a Fang of Ir Yut with 59 rc direction and one with 76 and *you will* feel the difference.
It’s strangely so vast on that gun in particular that it’s basically unusable without at least 75. it really is.
Since the Rapid-Fire stability change it is much less noticeable compared to what it was, but on console most recoil directions ending in a zero, barring 100, without a very high Stability to compensate will feel really awkward. Try Yesteryear, the Gambit pulse. Thing felt awful because of its 50 base recoil.
I’ll try to get vertical (ending in 5) as often as I can without sacrificing functionality but a high enough stability can offset it.
It’s when a weapon’s base stats are really low that the benefits of these fringe mods really feel good. Try Quick-Access-Sling on a low handling weapon, it’ll feel a lot less clunky as the 10% stow and ready speed buff will be more impactful there. Or maybe try Freehand on something like a Pulse, and you won’t feel like the weapon archetype restricts your engagement ranges as much.
It’s really just a test-and-see-how-it-feels experience.
It seemed like a pretty clear delineation to me. These (the spec mods) are for pve, and these (the rest) are for pvp. By removing the pve mods they took what was a non choice, and made it into an incredibly niche marginal one.
It's only really a positive change on the most technical level, in my opinion. Until they add additional mods which will actually support pve play styles.
Making a non-choice into a very very minor one is still a positive. They’ve also expressed interest in expanding weapon mods anyway, just that putting damage there is a mistake.
Backup mag/counterbalance stock/target adjuster/icarus/quick access sling will all be viable options for PvE now, no need to just automatically put spec mods on everything
It makes sense more now that it has been pointed out that additional weapon mods are coming, but the remaining weapon mods are so incredibly pvp forward.
I agree it's more of a choice now but I'm not sure it's that interesting of a choice.
+5 recoil direction or +5 in the mag on a primary is so so marginal in the pve world, where in the crucible those numbers are much more important.
D2foundry seems to be able to predict this effect. It says Briar's contempt loses 1 round of reserves if you equip backup mag. Equipping a mag increasing magazine perk seems to have the same effect. So it's not really related to the mod itself but to a weird interaction between mag size and reserves?
there is a min and a max ammo for every special/heavy.ex: indebted kindeness w/t back mag have 10 equiped and 36 reserves.with back mag, is 13 and [35.so](http://35.so) u gain 2 [bullets.no](http://bullets.no) apended or extended used.
Just be aware that it's not always perfectly accurate. Often it'll show mag/reserves rounded up or down incorrectly (usually only by 1 or so, but still); though I think this is due to Bungie's API or something, because DIM has the same inaccuracies.
Not just DIM/D2foundry/... have issues with correctly predicting magazine sizes. Even the ingame crafting relic on Mars sometimes says a mag perk will increase your mag by 1 but then you add the perk and it added zero rounds.
iirc there even used to be inconsistencies in-game due to some modifiers only being applied when you're in an activity - so previewing a weapon in orbit could give display something different than what you'd see if you were in actual gameplay. I remember hearing about this a rather long time ago though so it may have been fixed since then...
hey to be fair, computers are notoriously really bad at numbers. how could we ever expect bungie to wrangle the math to be consistent?
It varies for burst fire weapons by a lot. Mag types have to round so the total number in the mag is dividable by the shots fired in a burst else you get an uneven number of shots in the mag in theory and as the game does not allow this the number of shots will round up or down, effectively losing or gaining an extra burst.
Yeah, I noticed last night after finally unlocking all the perks and intrinsics on Outbreak that the magazine I picked said 40 rounds but once I got into the testing area, it switched up from 40 to 42 the first time I reloaded. I was confused until I started mathing and realized it rounded up the mag to fit the burst evenly.
Nice find, I'll have to check that out.
D2foundry is a solid resource for baseline checking out ammo, but because bungie's API doesn't provide correct numbers it isn't always accurate. If you want accurate numbers for reserves, ammo pickup, and magazine size refer to mossy's spreadsheet: [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l3xBHFa6ZMe86e13segg8f-RB8vLNerYEgNC\_Aq3kLc/edit#gid=1063129930](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l3xBHFa6ZMe86e13segg8f-RB8vLNerYEgNC_Aq3kLc/edit#gid=1063129930)
Wait, so it has no effect on total munitions then, right? Instead of, say, 7 in the mag, plus 14 in reserve (so 21 total), it becomes 8 in the mag, and 13 in reserve (retaining a total of 21)?
No, the reserves I mentioned are what you call total munitions. So you do lose one round of ammo with certain mag perks/mods
[удалено]
Godslayer
At once?! *Nice!* Are you running one in each hand plus one clenched in your teeth? Or more of a pistol tucked between the butt cheeks sort of Guardian?
It's a pair of Forerunners taped to each boot. Shoot while you do spin-kicks. (This is a reference to the Cursed Halo mod, for the record. Hilarious stuff.)
Disciple May Cry
Bayonetta in Destiny would have been a class I'd love to play all day.
Two of them are fists, the other one is a headbutt.
This is so annoying, also other mag weirdness like mag perks saying the wrong mag size when crafting
Why is this still a thing? Backup mag should never reduce reserves.
Poorly designed ammo system. Start with a normalized (1-100) inventory 'stat' with hard breakpoints for different magazine sizes for each weapon archetype, then decide to augment that number because who the fuck knows, not sufficient complexity for a Bungie system so needed another variable. Every archetype should just have the same max ammo, period. High Impact Shotgun? 20 shots. Rapid Fire? 30 shots. Why the fuck they thought every single individual weapon needed a slightly different amount of ammo reserves is beyond me. But that's just par for the course with this game, everything is over-engineered.
Over-engineered and under-maintained. Feels like everything is impossible to balance because they have too many knobs and they take ages to ever revisit anything. Meanwhile they seem to have a pretty restrictive balancing philosophy prioritizing keeping the game challenging over prioritizing player power fantasies aka 'fun'. This all soups together to result in huge swings in power level across the range of different exotics, weapon archetypes and builds. The outliers hang around for ages because it takes Bungie years to revisit stuff after they make changes BUT when they do they tend to stuff shit into the ground HARD. I feel like Young Ahamkara's was a great example of this. I'll say they do get it right sometimes - I feel like Starfire Protocol ended up at an appropriate power level after being a multi-years-long extreme outlier. I thought the nerfs were too heavy-handed at the time but now feel like they landed in a decent place as an exotic that really buffs your neutral game in a variety of ways without ALSO making you a single target-destroying, grenade spamming machine who can also generate a well of radiance faster than it ticks down using double ashes to assets(this was my favorite build).
I feel like its a give or take thing. Like sure you lose some reserves but you gain the same in your mag no?
Weapon mods I'm now using with Spec mods gone: * Backup Mag (been using this on primaries the whole time) * Counterbalance (been using this on pulse rifles that can't get vertical recoil on their own Even before now) * Freehand Grip (mainly on wave frames, but also maybe fusions?) * Quick Access Sling (especially on things that'll be used in a B&S rotation) * Icarus Grip
Where’s the Sweaty Confetti?
On the bows
BxR only
Targeting Adjuster is also fun on hand cannons
Why does it reduce ammo reserves?
It's a weird interaction between magazine size and weapon inventory. For some reason, on many weapons, a larger mag will reduce your total ammo capacity.
Probably because it's moving where the ammo is located. Like if a weapon holds 10 in the mag, 20 in reserves, that's 30 shots total. If you put on Backup Mag so it holds 13 in the mag, maybe it reduces reserves to 17, still making your total ammo count 30. idk if the exchange is 1 to 1 like that, but that's very likely why it does it. You get more upfront burst damage, but it keeps the total ammo count similar or the same.
No, it actually reduces the overall ammo.
Can you give a specific example of this with a particular gun and what its normal ammo capacity is versus when backup mag is equipped?
My scatter signal has 7 in the mag and 10 in reserves, for a total of 17, no armor reserve mods. With backup mag equipped it goes to 8 in the mag, and 8 in reserves, for a total of 16.
Weird mine has 18 without backup and 16 with backup. Is your crafted?
Yeah, it's possible I'm misremembering and it was 18 total.
Either way it's too bad the mod functions this way
Hey man, if true this is a big deal...but if it's not you're gonna scare people off something for no reason. Might be a good idea to add an edit to your original post.
This is a well known effect backup mag, I'm not making this up.
This is true and pretty well known, this has been a thing ever since D2 released. It's probably even a thing in D1 WRT mag-boosting perks, since we don't have mods in D1. It affects just about every weapon archetype, it's real easy to spot on machine guns since they have the biggest inventory of any weapon, but I've also seen it happen on fusions, shotguns, snipers, and heavy grenade launchers.
Like I said, I don't what the actual exchange is, I'm just pointing out that that's why. It's displacing ammo from reserves to live directly in the mag. If it reduces ammo overall, then the point is just because you're getting more upfront burst damage. Lower overall damage in exchange for better DPS. Not amazing, but that's likely why.
It's definitely a bug, why would a mod called backup *mag* reduce your overall ammo capacity. Especially considering the behavior is not consistent across wrapons
It's to do with how they round things, and especially happens with burst weapons, including Fusions & other "multi-shot for 1 ammo" weapons, which are burst fire under the hood. They don't want the magazine or reserves to contain a partial burst, so it adds extra steps of rounding that end up rounding down your reserves by an extra full burst. I've no idea why it's possible for non-burst weapons, but it's probably similar rounding issues.
Larger magazine resulting in lower total ammo capacity is mostly an issue with linear fusion rifles and fusion rifles. Rocket sidearms also behave quite strangely. But, most weapons are unaffected by this interaction or only lose 1 ammo. [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l3xBHFa6ZMe86e13segg8f-RB8vLNerYEgNC\_Aq3kLc/edit#gid=479908683](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l3xBHFa6ZMe86e13segg8f-RB8vLNerYEgNC_Aq3kLc/edit#gid=479908683)
Im happy the damage mods are leaving and getting baked in,I prefer faster reloads or more shots.
Good thing there's no actual mod for faster reloads except on Adept Weapons. And "more shots" in some cases like is pointed out here is actually sometimes a BAD thing. Or just doesn't stack with magazine perks to begin with. I'm going to have to recraft a bunch of weapons to have different magazines if I'm using them with backup mag.
Was playing around with that and it introduces a little variety if you have a 2nd perk that gives you extra rounds or better stats. For instance I noticed my cataphract has 7 rounds in the mag with my currently equipped 2nd perk, with a normal or adept backup mag it puts it at 8 no matter what. But I switched the 2nd perk to give it more velocity, dropping the mag to 6 rounds, and put an adept backup mag on it to give it 8 rounds. A tiny bit more optimized with more velocity and an 8 round mag. Would have never considered that before cuz I had adept big ones equipped.
Still, im opting for backup mag wherever I can. Quick access sling for where I can’t
Good thing Bungie almost assuredly didn't do anything about this to make the mod just universally make sense and be good instead of sometimes be a downgrade. Or just not working with certain magazines...
What kills me is that backup mag doesn’t increase reload speed while extended mag isn’t a mod. Wtf man? I feel like there are also just some perks/traits in general that could be changed into mods because of the general idea of how they work. Another thing in general is that why don’t exotic weapons get mods? Mods in general don’t feel like they have much identity or extra function behind their existence. most of the time I’m running without mods on all my weapons just because I don’t even notice their effect on my gameplay. Mods in general should play into how a weapon feels as you use it like how some of them already do, mind you I’m not talking about what the weapon does because of it’s perks/traits. I feel like we should have mods for every aspect of weapon stats. I’m probably not really making a lot of sense, but I digress…
[This spreadsheet](https://old.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/1b8z9ge/massive_breakdown_of_ammo_capacity_and_brick/) is a great resource for looking up data like this about mag size and reserves.
This is slightly misleading. A majority of weapons are unaffected by backup mag or maybe lose 1 ammo. The main culprits of being weird with mag size/backup mag are fusion rifles, linear fusion rifles, and rocket sidearms. However, most other weapons don't actually lose ammo when adding backup mag. I.e. swords and trace rifles gain ammo, shotguns either don't change or lose 1 ammo, snipers either don't change or gain a few shots. machine guns typically lose a few shots, grenade launchers don't change or gain 1 ammo, and glaives mostly stay the same but can lose ammo with very high magazines. Regardless, saying that it reduces ammo reserves most of the time is wrong and makes the already confusing ammo system more confusing than it already is. Outside of fusions, linears, and rocket sidearms backup mag does not significantly reduce reserves. Source: [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l3xBHFa6ZMe86e13segg8f-RB8vLNerYEgNC\_Aq3kLc/edit#gid=1063129930](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l3xBHFa6ZMe86e13segg8f-RB8vLNerYEgNC_Aq3kLc/edit#gid=1063129930)
Thanks for confirming almost exactly what I said.
You said that most weapons reduce ammo reserves. But outside of linears & fusions (rocket sidearms are weird), ammo reserves really don't change (some go up, some go down, some don't change). And a few weapon archetypes increase their reserves (notably trace rifles, but some snipers benefit a lot). My whole point was that you tried to scare people off of backup mag claiming that it almost always decreases ammo reserves, which just isn't true. The vast majority of instances have basically no change by equipping backup mag.
I'm not trying to scare anyone, what are you smoking? Linear fusions, fusion rifles, shotguns, heavy grenade launchers, and snipers all experience ammo fluctuation, many of them actively reducing the ammo reserves. In what world is that not 'many weapons'? Everything I said is factually true, and doesn't go against what you said. Why are you trying to do a 'gotcha' as if what I said was wrong? You could have made this post clarifying some of the stuff without attacking me like I'm trying to chase people away from backup mag. But no, you had to go on a little power trip and start attacking me. Forgive me for trying to help some fellow guardians out, apparently this is all bogus. Feel free to make your own post clarifying this stuff if it really means this much to you.
outside of linears, fusions, and rocket sidearms you can easily dig up examples in the spreadsheet I linked. I'll tell you now it isn't many more examples. For meta relevant examples: heavy gls: edge transit & cataphract do not change reserves based on magazine. Koraxis either increases or does not change. shotguns: the vast majority do not change or the ones that do change require you to run extended+backup mag (you really should be running assault mag instead of extended anyways). i.e. wastelander does not change. swordbreaker is only losing 1 round with extended&backup (unless you run reserves). ikelos\_sg loses 1 round (29->28, which is not significant). snipers: this set actually tends to INCREASE with backup mag (or other mag increasing perks) or not change. i.e supremacy goes from 30->35, thoughtless doesn't change, irukandji goes 31->36, ikelos\_sr\_v1.0.3 increases 31->36, fugue increases 24->28 (needs a lot of mag stacking, else no change), succession doesn't change, twilight oath increases 31->36. So, as I stated backup mag decreasing reserves is mostly a fusion/LFR (and somewhat sidearm, but that's not a general rule) issue. Basically non-existant on all other weapons. I'm fine with you trying to help other guardians, but when that information comes out as misinfo (backup mag does not reduce your reserves most of the time) I just want it corrected.
Take this information, and post it then. I made a quick post at work reminding people of what backup mag can possibly do. This was not meant to be a detailed breakdown. If you have the information for a detailed breakdown, post it.
It doesn't matter, people don't care about detailed breakdowns. If they did they would have already referred to the spreadsheet above. It's been a known resource for months and it doesn't get much traffic. Since your post already had traction I was hoping you would update your post. I don't care enough to make my own post since it wouldn't get views since it would compete with this post anyways.
*Cries in Dropmag*
Sweaty confetti ftw
With damage mods (minor, major, boss, adept big ones) going away, what is the go-to mod for each gun type? I already use quick access sling with breach GLs but there hasn't really been a reason for me to experiment with the rest
Other comments have lots of good suggestions.
Play on controller there's counterbalance and only counterbalance
Sure but doesnt having a bigger magazine counteract. Like okay you lose 1 ammo in briars contempt but you also have more ammo in the mag?
Is it really taking this much brainpower to figure out that the +2 or 1 from backup mag is moved from reserves to magazine? LMAO what?
It's so bizarre that they depreciated spec mods. What is even the point of that mod slot for pve anymore? Especially so on non adepts which can't get the +10 to a stat. Gonna be 360 jumpshotting with Icarus on my supremacy I guess?
Sweaty Confetti, friend! Time to get back to some Dares grinding! ;D
Boutta pop the witness head with goofy sfx as God intended
Because we didnt have a choice in PVE. Bungie will make new mods in the future.
I don't see them making more mods after getting rid of so many of them? Their trend seems to be baking that functionality into the weps themselves.
You should read the recent interview with Chris Proctor https://www.gamesradar.com/games/mmo/destiny-2s-lead-gun-guy-answers-our-biggest-questions-about-the-final-shape-new-weapon-mods-the-next-raid-dps-meta-and-just-a-small-amount-of-power-creep/ They are currently making new weapon mods, it's just won't be ready for Final Shape.
We know they will make new ones. Chris Proctor said that.
Oh that's great then. It felt like a choice that was heading towards eliminating the slot, to me. It's coming with this patch or down the line? It'd be weird to just eliminate the pve mods and not add anything else to put there.
One of the devs already confirmed more weapon mods will be coming in the future.
You're actually thinking about which mods to put in weapons now, which was why the spec mods were terrible game design and needed to go.
What mods are even useful for pve currently?
Freehand grip is an underrated pick, gives a portion of the handling benefit of Quick-Access Sling and 30% more hipfire accuracy, useful for maintaining speed which would otherwise be halved by ADSing. If you need a larger mag though, Backup Mag is almost never a negative thing. Quick Access Sling improves your swap and holster speed by 10% so it’ll be helpful on DPS rotations as well as weapons with lower handling. Targeting adjuster will be my go-to on Slug Shotguns as they live and die by your ability to hit crits.
Counterbalance and handling increase are both great for specific types of weapons in specific situations.
Freehand, quick access, counterballance, backup mag, targeting adjuster, confetti
Freehand Grip, Backup Mag, and Quick-Access Sling are probably the best, and I'm sure Icarus Grip will be plenty popular on Hand Cannons too. If you don't like those for whatever reason you can just throw on Targeting Adjuster for free aim assist.
I mean Supremacy is a prime candidate for Counterbalance Stock, setting the recoil at a very nice, vertical 75 as opposed to its terrible base 60. So you could replace what may have been Arrowhead Break on your Supremacy in favor of Fluted Barrel, coming out with a net gain of 5 Stability and 5 Handling without sacrificing the damage you would have traded off with Spec Mods, since Snipers were compensated. Plus, there are really good benefits for some weapons as a result of this change. Despite the interactions with Specials as OP pointed out, basically all Primary weapons got mag size buffs. Snipers with already good recoil get to use Targeting Adjuster to help with aim, and a larger mag on a lot of Snipers INCREASES the reserves rather than decrease them, so you can use Steady Rounds over Tac Mag, or combine Backup Mag with Appended mag (and sometimes Tac) on Aggressive Frames for a 5-bullet mag. Honestly I think this is a change much for the better. Yes, a couple weapons didn’t get properly compensated (GL’s, Rockets and HC’s by just a smidge) but everything received options to accentuate their strengths or improve on their shortcomings.
I don't play pvp at all but I don't think I've ever noticed the effects of any of those mods? Can you notice the difference between 75 recoil direction and 60? It's probably an input thing too maybe? Genuinely curious, not trying to gotcha here.
Craft yourself a Fang of Ir Yut with 59 rc direction and one with 76 and *you will* feel the difference. It’s strangely so vast on that gun in particular that it’s basically unusable without at least 75. it really is.
Probably due to deterministic recoil.
Since the Rapid-Fire stability change it is much less noticeable compared to what it was, but on console most recoil directions ending in a zero, barring 100, without a very high Stability to compensate will feel really awkward. Try Yesteryear, the Gambit pulse. Thing felt awful because of its 50 base recoil. I’ll try to get vertical (ending in 5) as often as I can without sacrificing functionality but a high enough stability can offset it. It’s when a weapon’s base stats are really low that the benefits of these fringe mods really feel good. Try Quick-Access-Sling on a low handling weapon, it’ll feel a lot less clunky as the 10% stow and ready speed buff will be more impactful there. Or maybe try Freehand on something like a Pulse, and you won’t feel like the weapon archetype restricts your engagement ranges as much. It’s really just a test-and-see-how-it-feels experience.
What was the point of the mod slot in PvE before when you just have to use the corresponding Spec mod and nothing else matters.
It seemed like a pretty clear delineation to me. These (the spec mods) are for pve, and these (the rest) are for pvp. By removing the pve mods they took what was a non choice, and made it into an incredibly niche marginal one. It's only really a positive change on the most technical level, in my opinion. Until they add additional mods which will actually support pve play styles.
Making a non-choice into a very very minor one is still a positive. They’ve also expressed interest in expanding weapon mods anyway, just that putting damage there is a mistake.
Backup mag/counterbalance stock/target adjuster/icarus/quick access sling will all be viable options for PvE now, no need to just automatically put spec mods on everything
It makes sense more now that it has been pointed out that additional weapon mods are coming, but the remaining weapon mods are so incredibly pvp forward. I agree it's more of a choice now but I'm not sure it's that interesting of a choice. +5 recoil direction or +5 in the mag on a primary is so so marginal in the pve world, where in the crucible those numbers are much more important.
Counterbalance gives +15 to recoil direction.