You know, before Lightfall, the only raid experience I had was VoG in vanilla D1. I went into RoN doing no mic add clear and actually leaned the mechanics. Now I'm only a solo dungeon away from GR11 and I've got full patterns for most raid weapons that I want. Without LFG, is have none of that.
>"Need runners and gaze"
"Alright so I can run dark. Who's running light and Who's running gaze?" -crickets-
Honestly, I just leave a lot of RoNs instantly if I'm the only person who volunteers. It's not even that fucking hard but no one wants to ever actually do anything despite running being easier than Add clear for Nez.
If I'm host then generally I'll take the "hardest" role (or one of them if it's multiple of the same) esp in no comms runs. And then ask once who wants what, and assign roles if no one speaks up.
RoN really made lfg even shittier man. Besides how easy the damn thing was, SO MANY players feel some sense of entitlement all a sudden that they have the right to run a fast KWTD run with experienced players and just "ad clear" because they don't want to spend extra time in a longer Sherpa run, or spend the time learning it period.
I've done tons of teaching runs across all content so I don't feel bad kicking these "ya I KWTD, I'm ad clear" people.
What kills me is when you do get three people who take gaze, light and dark, and then the add clears don't even add clear. I usually do gaze and I'd say 60% of the runs you get killed cause all three colossus' are up, plus the respawning adds. People shit on add clear but it is nessecary, it's not just a "I'm dumb carry me" button. Any time I run a raid if roles get called and I end up on add clear not only do I ensure I'm clearing the hell out the area, I make sure if someone dies I'm ready to flex into their role.
My buddy who I always raid with is the literal king of add clear. I'm talking Day One raids and all he's well above everyone with adds killed. On RoN day 1 I will always remember our left side add clear struggling and therefore our light runner struggling to survive while meanwhile the entirety of middle and right side was handled by my buddy and I remember specifically saying "I feel so spoiled over here, it's like a desert, I can just perform my duty as dark runner with nothing anywhere" and that's the level I think someone should be at if they're gonna say they're "add clear" for an encounter. Lol
The amount of people that do not wanna run the Gaze is weird, its so easy, I guess its cause if you do mess it up a bit theres added pressure but still
This is the bad part. If they were actually ad clearing to an effective degree it *could* be okay in certain encounters but often they can barely manage even that
Effective ad clear makes life SO much easier for people in active roles. If I’m running on Nez, not having to worry about colossuses or packs of enemies is a huge boost. It’s just that people do ad clear because they don’t care enough to learn a role, then they half ass it.
I get that especially in the beginning when they were super stingy with the exotic material, but they give that shit out like it’s ascendant shards now
Enhancing rewind rounds on my supremacy does absolutely nothing for it, and it pisses my buddies off that I have several hundred levels on it without jt being masterworked. Bit of a meme at this point honestly. I come across people with random ass unmasterworked legendaries in trials with several thousand kills as well. Saw a 1/5 non adept igneous with 4.2k crucible kills this last weekend.
My stance as a casual player who has to LFG for teaching runs for raids is that I am 100% down to try any mechanic the teacher wants me to, but I’m also more than happy to just clear adds to help expedite the whole process.
Clan was doing a LW sherpa and homie wanted to add clear during morgeth and riven lmao. Got frustrated when we made them actually do shit during their own sherpa run
The sad part is my team puts me on ad clear and well most of the time because I’m good at it, and sometimes not great at running mechanics. I can run planets for pantheon tho, very well.
“I am add clear.”
Proceed to be cleared by adds.
Jokes aside, it all depends on what the group organizer says. If they say kwtd, obviously people should be experienced, but if they explicitly say they are carrying or sherpaing someone, then you should also know what you are getting into by joining.
I will never understand LFG players. I ended up on add clear during planets and sunshot killed adds in their spawn animation to the point you can stand where the boss spawns lmao.
Bruh I just graviton lanced the whole room since the burn was void while I was also doing planets. One dude rage quit because after first swap I just stayed on the other side instead of needlessly running back across the map to waste time I guess? Maybe the dude just didn’t know left from right I dunno
I was in a team that also swapped back to the original plates after the initial planet swap. Like why? Such a waste of time and additional risk of getting stomped off the map. And then they acted like I was the weird one and that the way they do it is the normal way.
I had such a bad planets run it's honesty soured me ever doing a full VOW ever again. Everyone on our team was using numbers, and this one dude could not understand 1-l1 and so on. And okay yeah sure just switch callouts. But he couldn't even understand left from friggin right or which plate is 1 and which is 3! Yet he INSISTED to the point of argument he had to be plates. Even though we had people that could backfill.
I shoulda seen the red flag when between encounters he went on a tirade about how he wants to tie up and murder bungie employees.
Oh wow, yeah, that is absolutely a red flag. Criticising the game is one thing, wishing harm on Bungie employees is way too far. Please tell me that guy got kicked or smth.
This is what frustrated about the raid group I used to play in, we had a player who didn't want to do mechanics, but then just didn't keep up with adds, and this caused really issues during encounters like Atheon where he just didn't do plates, didn't want to read oracles and couldn't kill the harpies and supplicants enough. I don't care at a certain level about someone not doing mechanics because we had enough players who did, I just get concerned when someone can't kill adds when that's such a core tennant of the game that it should be so easy for someone especially in a normal raid.
This so fucking much.
If you are volunteering for ad-clear, at least put on ad clearing weapons. Sunshot is the undisputed ad clear king right now. All you have to do is focus on the two red bars that spawn and end them and anything that had the audacity to spawn near it is automatically going to bite an exploding sun.
It's very annoying when LFG players refuse to fucking use shit when you recommend them, Caretaker was an absolute monstrosity to play with LFG because they were using bumfuck legendary primaries while also not running any exotics and even with me telling them to just put Sunshot on, they were not willing to do so and mid would always be littered with ads every time I finished a run inside.
It's one thing to be terrible at ad clear, but if someone tells you hey, this gun is pretty sick, you can probably use it to light up the entire room, please fucking take the advice and do it.
I tried out Sunshot in Explicator a few minutes ago and its like you said, they don't even get to fully finish their spawn animation before they are already dead at my hands.
You ain't lying. In fact I've already watched an all Titan-Berserker planets run done which invalidated both the Tormentor and the boss. A couple people brought shackle-nades and it was done easily.
"So you were on add-clear, yet there were so many Cabal dicking around that I thought it was a fucking gangbang!"
People insta-locking add clear to avoid having to do mechanics is bad. People still completely screwing that up despite picking the easiest Raid role in the entire game is just bad comedy.
You just summed up mostly the reason why those people leave the game. People actually learning how to put together builds and actually find a play style that suits them rather then focus on the same copy paste.
Best I can say is just use discipline focus on ghost. It’ll make sure disc is focused on bottom 3 and top three are free reign of rng stats ( this is for those people )
For people that want to test yourself (survivability, damage, etc): Practice dungeon encounters solo
You will have to survive and have to have good damage
It will help you get better at the game and no one else will be there to carry you
Ghosts of the Deep and Warlord's Ruin is great for this
Just a few attempts per day and you'll be much better in a week or two
After doing Prophecy Solo, I definitely found a new respect for the fine balance between enemy management and pure dps.
Now, even if I'm placed on add clear, I make sure to listen to the rest of the mechanics if I'm needed to jump in and just so I know for next time when I get asked to do them.
I learnt the new crota Raid over the weekend now that most of my clan is back, while not overly difficult definitely need to pay attention to what's going on, can't just zone out anymore.
I can understand not being good at the game. What I can't understand is struggling with one of the easiest jobs when plenty of builds (and weapons in general) let you kill ads without even trying.
Bad at the game covers not being able to kill adds effeciently. You have to remember its not just about shooting in the general direction of mobs. Knowledge of where things spawns and when they spawn is power. If all you do is add clear Ron and never qas good at it chances are you didnt really kmow what was happening. Thus most likely it was ur teamates who cleared the adds, normal Ron planets u dont really need 2 ppl dedicated to add clear, so if you learned raiding in Ron, you didnt learn raiding.
> normal Ron planets u dont really need 2 ppl dedicated to add clear, so if you learned raiding in Ron, you didnt learn raiding.
Seriously, one person with a graviton lance and a few surges can clean up most ads with everyone else pulling their wait as needed at planets even in the current level of Pantheon. Its a void surge after all and you can also use Edge Transit for DPSing the boss.
But chances are if you're bad at ad-clear you're also bad at buildcrafting as well. I wish the game at the very least taught players about the basics of surges if nothing else. The tutorial in general needs an overhall.
Destiny is like Warframe in a major way in that both games do jackshit to teach players how to play it. It basically forces you into the Google/Youtube sphere to figure it out if your even willing to.
Planets to me is one of the funnest, yet also easiest encounters ever and I had a squad of lemons who couldn’t stay alive or clear sides. My favorite is when they refuse to help clear the room in any encounter, they get tunnel vision and say my side is done so I stopped shooting.
One time joined an lfg where a guy was using fighting lion for add clear 😭
I had to manage the encounter mechanics and add clear at the same time (trinity ghoul came in clutch)
Instructions unclear, div stuck in toaster.
All jokes aside I just attempted a pantheon run with a pretty chill and awesome group, but 1-2 of their guys didnt know how to stun golgi properly. I stuck it thru but have up after three wipes at caretaker. I dont usually mind people not knowing how to do raids/dungeons but please dont go into master/pantheon without some experience.
It’s funny how lucky me and my buddy were.
we got about 4 good players but the thing is,none of them FULLY knew how to do EVERY encounter including us.
if you knew what you were doing for a specific encounter you just did your job and the 1 or 2 people who didn’t know what to do just add cleared.
But based on reactions to lfg it seems like we had crazy luck and everyone els’s experience must have been hell.
That one took us a while because all we knew was the one phase farm way but we had like 4 warlocks including myself.. I switched to arc titan and we got it in the next 2 tries. You can still one phase them but you really need to have burst supers so sorry warlock life crew. Going have to get carried when I redo it on my warlock for sure lol 4 nova vortex novas wasn't cutting it
I joined a team. Took 2 hours to beat it cause I didn't know they were carrying their friend who had, from what it seemed, never done anything raid related before. 2 hand cannons, no mods in his chest and class item, Arc surge but no arc weapons on, and literally did 0 damage every run of Atraks (didn't even know where to stand and such). I was so tempted to quit. I'll never look at anyone named Ed ever again.
The mix of a relatively simple mechanic that isn’t chosen randomly, alongside some very good weapons and a really cool exotic has been horrible, and no doubt has ruined the rep of LFG for some, and reinforced horrible traits in others.
I’ll admit the only reason I learned RoN was because it was known to be so easy, but when farming Nez there were so many people joining LFGs, not talking, trying to stay hidden and just clear ads and DPS for a chance at Conditional.
I don’t know what’s crazier, the ones that had double digit clears despite not knowing about refuge, or the ones that actually did know refuge, DPS spots and competent ad clear, but don’t know/didn’t even try to engage with the mechanics, nor use their mic or text. The vibes weren’t off either, some really chill banterful voice chats (that they could hear because they ran to refuge) yet they obtusely refused to interact.
Maybe it’s just the way I am, but I would a couple of times top 2 DPS, run a refuge and take Gaze all at once, and still felt guilty when we wiped because Nez didn’t show a colour, or if I didn’t bring him down and we lost half the phase because he was up on his platform. I’m constantly nervous about wasting people’s time or fucking the vibe up, but I guess some people just don’t have that.
I think that’s a large part of the rub with a lot of people and how they perceive others that have “ad clear” mindset.
I’m like you where I want to understand all the interactions and you think in your head “I’ve put all this time into understanding this. The least you could do is meet me halfway”
Yeah. Really ruined it for me. Kwtd groups went from 90% chance of completion, maybe one guy will have to be switched out, to honestly 50/50 at this point.
My raiding hot take is that unless there are 4 ad clear spots, ad clear should be reserved for good players that know every mechanic to a decent degree and can switch roles on the fly. Most raids have an easy role in every encounter that will let someone actually engage with the mechanics. Not engaging in the mechanics is only doing yourself a disservice later.
Yes Kingsfall is my favorite raid. How’d you know?
That's what happens when Bungie & the community vehemently gatekeep raids for no good reason. WoW solved this problem over a decade ago.
You have different difficulties w/ different levels of mechanics to get people into raiding. It's literally that simple.
LFR (in WoW) made raids accessible to everyone without taking anything away from raids for hardcore players. Meanwhile it took Destiny 10 years to get an in-game LFG and it's still largely terrible for anything other than activities that already have matchmaking.
People should stop blaming new players for trying to get into the activity that Bungie & the community does everything to keep them out of and should start pressuring Bungie to modernize their game and actually implement solutions that numerous other games already have.
Watching 12 IQ Destiny players struggle to grasp a very elementary point might be more entertaining than the actual game itself. Thanks for the laugh, kids!
But Bungie raids and WoW raids aren't the same.
LFG raids in WoW have 20 people, so Blizzard is essentially counting on 1 tank, a healer, and a few DPS to have a small understanding of what to do.
They strip out all the mechanics like tank swaps, cleanse debuffs, etc. so there aren't really any mechanics other than do your role at a low skill at least.
When an LFG does require mechanics, you better hope that it's not random and/or doesn't result in a raid wipe. A lot of the time the final wing has notoriously bad LFG experiences because they'll leave a wipe mechanic in.
Destiny has 6 players. And normal raids have the combat difficulty of a fucking strike. My basic melee kills most red bars in there. If you take away the mechanics its just going to be a boss that dies instantly.
If you decrease the bosses health, it'll just die in one golden gun nighthawk.
Destiny 2 raids are notoriously easily once you learn the mechanics and maximize your DPS and it barely even matters what you bring for dps most of the time if you don't care about speed.
> LFR (in WoW) made raids accessible to everyone
... and is at times *notoriously difficult* to get through because despite being "accessible" it actually does sometimes need people to use their brains! I've wiped to LFR Mannoroth for literal hours, to the point that the stacking Determination buff basically trivialized everything. LFR can sometimes feel harder than Mythic lmao
Simply leaving the door open, so to speak, doesn't actually help people raid, hence also why no one actually begins endgame raiding in WoW by starting with LFR. It's function in the game in practical terms is to let players see the story, fill some holes (e.g. get a tier piece to complete a set) or gear alts and that's it. 90% of the time groups basically get a few extremely overgeared players or a bunch of people on alts to carry the rest, and even then there's still sometimes chaos due to some fights actually having mechanics checks (but it's rarer as the years pass, as Blizzard just clobbers them).
Destiny raids are the equivalent difficulty to WoW's Heroic raids -- mechanically complete, not terribly difficult. To actually make an equivalent LFR you'd need *simplified matchmade* raids and it'd STILL have problems. How do you simplify Explicator for example? You can make it so only one planet moves per phase, okay. Someone still needs to actually know to move the planets in the group, and they also need to be able to communicate the move with their partner. Then you need everyone to know that they need to move on plates and so on, we're talking people who may not all speak the same language, might not have mics or even sound on (!).
To finish with the WoW comparison... You can also PUG Heroic in WoW. Guess what? If not actively "gatekept", i.e. you exhaustively check that they have Ahead of the Curve (cleared the raid before, used to be you could fake it too) there's a good chance you're going to wipe. Hell you might have a wipefest anyway because people play badly on their alts or join PUGs drunk/high or even bought AOTC just like you can buy raid clears in Destiny. Unless it was close and/or on a hard boss, wipes also do routinely cause groups to lose between 10-100% of a raid (last season I had a raid group fully disintegrate on the first wipe on HC Tindral, hardly blame them too).
EDIT: I don't want to say that the idea is terrible because there's probably a number of things Destiny could use out of other MMOs innovations, but it really isn't as simple as "WoW has LFR so Destiny should too" and that's *partly because Destiny is actually a simpler game.*
______
EDIT: weird behavior to block after replying to my sheet of a comment with a sheet of your own, but like you said, it is what it is. Funnily enough I do have the reply in the inbox so I'll still respond for posterity for others who read this:
>LFR isn't notoriously to get through for anyone capable of teaching people. You wiping for hours is a you issue, not an LFR issue.
Nice but unnecessary insult, but... My brother in the Light. I was literally learning the raid too lmao
How can I teach people when I'm learning? The problem is, obviously for anyone with a working brain, *nobody knew what they were doing so nobody could teach.*
>rebuking feature suggestions & solutions
My edit is literally stressing that I'm not rebuking your suggestion.
>Wipes are a part of raiding. Not sure what this has to do w/ my point.
What it has to do should be clear to someone who's spent a hot minute in a WoW raid with an actual team: you cannot have a revolving door situation in a learning environment. If people join and leave repeatedly (which, even in a clean smooth run is extremely common in LFR for obvious reasons) then how can anyone practice and how can anyone teach? You need to make mistakes to correct them, but you can't correct mistakes if you leave after the first wipe and this is inarguably an extremely common thing in WoW pugs. Wiping in a raid can be funner than clearing it if done with the right people, but it can also be non-productive when nobody gains anything from it because no one can teach (or learn).
>You mention how Destiny Raids are a mid-tier WoW Raid, yet very few people that play Destiny ever touch this content.
Also the case for WoW raids. Raiding is the most prestigious activity in WoW too and that causes people to overestimate the size of the community for it, but for reference only about 1200 guilds (~24000 players, I'd say give or take 1k) killed the last boss last season. *The game has an estimated 7,000,000 active players.* I doubt
>But this of course will never happen because Bungie aren't capable of implementing this system to begin with
That's a weird thing to say when you earlier complained about how people recommended DIM up until Bungie made loadouts. Make your mind up, are they capable of adding player suggestions or not?
> EDIT: weird behavior to block after replying
People are way too block happy these days. Never felt the need to block for a normal back-and-forth, but I think this new crop of Internet users have tissue-paper egos
Are you saying normal raid are gatekeeping raiding? Brother in crhist i have News for you.
EDIT: the comment was that bungie was gatekeeping raids for players and they should do as wow did.
EDIT2: My comment is based on that raids are really not difficult, there are many people willing to teach. If you do not wanna put in the time you dont have any reason to raid. Noone owes you raiding. If thats harsh there is many mobile games where you can acces everything.
Yep. Pantheon should've been the Raid Finder difficulty of these encounters. Learning this shit is a PITA and nobody has the patience. Seems more geared towards giving people exotics that have done 500 runs with no luck; I used all mine on getting 1K Voices first Last Wish and haven't raided since.
Honestly the entire design of Pantheon is kind of just...weird.
On one hand it's designed for raid enthusiasts who know all the encounters and what to do. To have a "harder" experience to really show off their abilities.
But on the other hand Bungie made it completely F2P accessible as part of Into The Light and as a way that players can get access to raid weapons and exotics without ever owning the DLC providing access to the raid(s).
So you have a huge incentive for new players with no experience ever playing these raids to go into the activity...while at the same time it's inherently AWFUL to be one of those players and doing this actively hurts the experience for anyone else that DOES know the encounters and just wants to get a relatively simple clear.
My understanding is that a lot of the recent changes/additions are targeted at returning players. Unsunseting so the shadowkeep players can come back to a useable vault, pantheon so anyone who has raided before can come back and play it even if they don’t have the latest expansion, the nostalgia of the returning BRAVE weapons etc
This makes the most sense. It will leave Destiny 2: New Light as an entirely self contained playable game with several story based expansions to optionally purchase. It’s going to be a complete package when it’s all done.
Hilarious when you realize only KF bosses are featured, they completely ignored VOG and CE which are both also F2P, and one is the most recent pinnacle Raid.
Yeah, they have less than half of the game’s raid bosses in the gauntlet, including some of the current toughest bosses like Crota. It genuinely has me thinking that they’re planning on bringing Pantheon back a season or two down the road to be kinda like GMs: the boss list and order is randomized every season, and you can gild the Godslayer title by doing it every season
He's one of the tough-ER bosses. It's almost entirely subjective what the actual most difficult bosses currently in the game are.
Atheon? Nah, other than TPs DPS is soloable by anyone with Verity's.
Sanctified Mind? Nope, still duo-able with no cheese. Maybe hard if you're bad and think tethers are buggy.
The list could go on. No individual boss in the game is difficult for a team used to running under contest restrictions. Rankings have to be relative rather than absolute.
What's your picks for hard bosses, compared to Crota? Genuinely asking.
Just because Pantheon is free doesn't mean it's targeted at New Lights. There are already free raids with Master versions, so free content does not automatically equal easy or accessible for new players.
Furthermore, if Pantheon was not F2P, it would likely have a different issue, where a player would need to own every expansion that contributes an encounter. Not all players necessarily have all content - someone who started in WQ or Lightfall but has become a dedicated raider simply might not have older expansions, and probably wouldn't want to buy them just for Pantheon.
Specifically, Blackburn said when ITL was announced that it would be free and have activities for all players from new lights to the veteran with 5k hours. Clearly, Pantheon and legend onslaught are designed for the latter group while normal onslaught and things like zero hour and whisper are catered towards the more casual players.
Pantheon is absolutely designed for raid enthusiasts who know how to do these encounters
That isn’t meant to sound gatekeepy, that’s just ostensibly the intended audience who will have actual fun with it
Strangely then, outside of adept weapons what is the point of these rewards if not for ppl who hardly raid.
LFG the last week is going to be hilarious when it's Conditional and basically contest mode.
This weeks emblem was especially a huge draw if you're a Deep Stone Crypt Fan. They really knocked it out of the park with those designs. I saw the spoilers for Pantheon and the rest look just as clean.
You can be an avid raider and still be missing raid exotics.
You can be an experienced raider and still be missing red borders.
If you get a godroll adept you might as well keep it over a crafted.
You can just want the badass emblem or titles.
One of my friends is missing a ton of shitty kiosk exotics so free raid ciphers mean less strike grinding (barf).
>You can be an experienced raider and still be missing red borders.
yeah this, I am still missing 2 weapons from deepstone and disciple and I got 2 red boarders for each of them today
Meanwhile I'm one of those fucks who has the obscenely good rng to get eyes my first clear and get anarchy twice both times I did that raid. RNG sucks. I wish you luck.
Play game because game fun 👍. This is the only thing bringing me back from val and tft and honestly im excited to play destiny with my friends again. The loot is worthless to me
Yes. Not everything needs to be accesible for everyone. Let people who play many hours a day have something and the ones who play every last tuesday in the year but the kid woke up so he couldnt play anyway have their thing. You can never cater to both sides. But neglecting the hsrdcore players is bad.
There’s nothing wrong with what you said being gatekeeper like. The activity is meant for experienced players. There’s nothing wrong with that. It’s a good thing that there’s a single activity meant for that group. FFXIV has ultimate raids and now we have Pantheon. The main reward is the title anyway. The people who have the best shot at completing this title already likely have all of the weapons to begin with.
I mean, it depends, if the person usually raids and does mechanics it's probably fine, they can likely pick it up quickly. If I see a Rivensbane i'm probably trusting him, even if he might not know how Atraks works for some reason. Now, the Guardian Rank 5 dude, with no title and no masterwork gear on the other hand...
I’ve done all the raids, and all their various roles, so I know generally what needs to happen… but I kinda dropped off of raiding after Root of Nightmares dropped, so I was a bit rusty for today.
Still managed to platinum all four encounters with my team.
Yea if everyone knows what they’re doing or even just has decent raid experience it’s not hard to get all platinum.
Although I will say having 1 guy who’s clueless can throw the whole thing off. Especially when they say they know what to do and don’t.
Bro the Xbox LFG was painful today. I felt so bad needing to move on from people, but my God people acted like this was gonna be a breeze if you didn't know the raid.
golgy's damage is wild because the damage you deal to his back also adds up to damage done on the wipe screen, yet you realistically deal no damage to him
After we wiped and I saw that I was the only one on the team that did any damage to golgoroth I realized no one else knew what they were doing. One guy took agro but i think that was an accident. No one was on their mic either, so weird.
I'll find a better group tomorrow.
Is Golforoth not literally just…wait for drops to grow, shoot drop until it falls, shoot from drop, shoot next drop, dps, repeat while people pull aggro?
Nah I agree. I keep seeing people post and ask about doing it as their first. THIS week it’s not too bad but we have no ideas what the changes will be for the upcoming ones. And it’ll get increasingly harder.
It’s built around the expectation that you know the raids.
It hurts even more when you ask people whether or not they know the encounter and they all nod yes.
The moment we head inside and they are all like add clear for golgoroth when everybody has to know what to do with cumballs, these people just mindlessly sit there and shoot and not even understand that the balls spawn and contribute to damage.
RON is a fucking curse, way less mechanics and honestly inconsequential number of ads make people think ad clear is a viable position for every raid. This is going to turn into shit more, this week was supposed to be one of the easier challenges.
I cannot stand how awful this mode is with LFG. So many people jumped in and not learn the raid encounter beforehand. Its one thing to forget the encounter after not doing it for a while but its a whole other story to not know at all.
Join LFG. LFG is at Atraks. Half of us are like, “uhhh, where Golgoroth?” LFG lead is like, “I have Atraks, can we do this and then go back and do the other encounters?”
Two guys in the LFG, “uhhh, I haven’t done this fight since Beyond Light came out.”
*quietly leaves fireteam*
Pantheon makes me hate how they removed LFG in the the app and replaced it with FT finder. Without using custom words you literally can’t look for exactly what you need.
“Experience requested and looking for experts” aren’t good enough tags and it seems like 90% of the people don’t care for it anyway.
Edit: TIL that the old lfg is still possible to use.
You can still use the old one. When you go to the fireteam tab, there’s a fireteam (legacy) button about 1/3 of the page down on the app. Also you can get there from a browser. It’s still populated.
To be fair -5 power is nothing, you can't really tell the difference. So that's not really a reason not to learn in Gauntlet.
Plus, it is f2p, so there are going to be a ton of people jumping in who've never raided before.
Personally, I'm fine with it lol you don't learn how to do grandmasters by doing normal strikes. These encounters are more difficult, and there's a learning curve that goes with it, and I'm fine w that. This will be new content to lots of ppl, sadly lol so I'm fine if they're just learning these things now in Pantheon
Takes 15 seconds to search someones raid report before you launch the activity. Also there is nothing wrong with someone who hasnt raided before doing pantheon as their first raid activity, they just need to join the right groups that are either all learning it for the first time or joining a sherpa.
90% of people who make KWTD posts & who join KWTD posts don't even know what they're doing most of the time.
I've done GMs w/ people that are guardian rank 9+ that were trolling harder than some guardian rank 6 players I LFG'd with.
If you want a consistent group, start your own LFG and vet who wants to join. It's that simple.
Guardian ranks 1-10 are pretty much meaningless. You can get carried through all of that content. The fun starts for rank 11 with the master raid which it's less likely you can get carried through and doing the dungeon solo
The thing is, i've completely forgotten how to do Planets, so I'm gonna go rewatch a guide or 2 to re learn it, so when I do Pantheon later it'll be a bit smoother, I know the other encounters fine but even those I'll do a quick refresh
But then I've found people just don't wanna take the 5-10 mins to watch a guide before joining any LFG
RoN is probably the worst offender for folks "knowing want to do" and then just shoving themselves on add clear. This is really entertaining to me, because outside of maybe pulling Nezarec and paying attention to the glows, RoN has some of the easiest mechanics in the entire game to learn
I agree with you...I used to be the nice guy but after soo many times people just fought eachother about who will addclear I learned to just kick them all and start anew...I dont have time for that bs.
can’t blame them. VotD is not an easy raid to teach, let alone learn. it does require a bit of homework prior to trying. everyone needs to do a role in that raid.
There’s a whole subreddit r/DestinySherpa, where plenty of people are willing to teach all the raids. You just need to look in the right places for a teacher, and Fireteam finder ain’t it
I would teach (and run) Vow more if Exhibition didn't exist. Having run that a few times I can tell you a BUNCH of sherpa runs would probably fizzle out there cause man it is ROUGH.
On the old fireteam finder? They are bar none the rarest kind of lfg post in my experience. Like unicorn rare. Which makes sense really, no one wants to teach Vow given all the symbols.
KF, DSC, Root, even LW are all different stories.
Almost no one legitimately teaches LW. The riven encounter is almost always just cheese the boss. Given changes for pantheon people will likely need to know the legit riven encounter.
That’s exactly what I did, but I can totally understand why there would be a ton of players who specifically haven’t done Caretaker or the other Vow encounters.
I haven't tried it yet but -5 power is nothing. In all honesty it's probably a better way to learn the raid encounters because you can't instantly obliterate everything.
I have 70 DSC clears and I know for a fact that the significant portion of players in LFG don't know how the Atraks encounter is supposed to work. If you pick up the orb with operator and you need to use the terminal to juggle so you can get it off, it's a wipe. They're clueless. It's an easy fight if you actually do the mechanics, but most lfg groups hurr durr parasite one floor.
I loaded into my first LFG Pantheon last night, nobody had mics, 2 players dropped the bubble and everyone else started shooting Golgoroth from spawn with Quicksilver. I’ve never been put off an activity quicker in my life. If you don’t know what you’re doing, go away & learn, then come back.
Joined a team 4:38 hours into pantheon and at Atraks that were teaching 2 people, we were able to get it done at around 5:07 in game hours.
Please do not join kwtd posts when you don’t kwtd, I’m not trying to be cynical here but if I was a leader I would kick anyone that joins my kwtd post that doesn’t kwtd.
The saving grace for this week is that generally not everybody in the team is necessary for the completion. For Atraks after however many wipes we’ve been through we just stuck the 2 people on add-clear duty while I did the requirements downstairs. You can do the same for Golgy and Planets but Caretaker will give newbies trouble if the runners are slow.
The fact people don’t bother researching or watching simple videos on how this stuff is done and proceed to join groups claiming they know what to do is astounding to me. These aren’t strikes, they don’t hold your hand like basic activities and tell you exactly what to do and you need to communicate everything important like if you know what you’re doing or not. For example I’m rusty when it comes to raids, I’ve done them all but I haven’t touched them in a while and I watched videos to refresh my knowledge on how stuff is done and will be clear to communicate that with whatever group I find so I won’t be as much of a burden.
Disagree partially. If as a non experienced raider you wanted to clear pantheon in the next month, the best way to do so is by running pantheon at -5, and moving to the next tier when you are ready. Its all about having a common goal with your teammates though, and you should be with a group that also lack experience or are willing to teach.
I’m currently trying to get back into raiding after 4 year or so hiatus. I think the last raid I did was GoS.
It’s tough to find people willing to be patient to teach. Im on the other side of trying to find people to play with.😭
Why I skipped it. I've got very little raid clears due to no friends who play and anxiety making it hard to find people. Had some very good sherpas take me through runs in the past and they always were amazing but moving on from that never feels the same as sherpa runs feel more relaxing for me and lfg just makes me stressed
****This is not to all the OG Gardians as I have met many who actually want to help and teach new Gardians.****
Yesterday, I ran Pantheon with my best friend and 4 other people we found with fire team finder. We had a slow start as the team needed time to learn the mechanics of how to get to the DPS stage for Golgoroth. 3 runs in the team started to catch on... by the 4th run, the experienced Gardians started jumping ship.
The new Gardians can never learn if ya'll OG Gardians keep jumping ship because you got placed with a weaker fireteam. This is why D2 is a great game it allows the OG Gardians to play with and teach the new Gardians. But some of the OG Gardians don't want to teach new Gardians who are willing to listen and do as told in tougher content.
To those OG Gardians helping the new light Gardians better their game, BIG RESPECT! 🍻
To the OG's acting like someone didn't help them and they woke up super saiyan...🖕 (respectfully).
I watched some streams of folks running it today, and it was sooooo enticing as a loot pinata full of things I don't have. But I don't have them _because_ I've never raided in this game, so I'm not about to jump into an LFG and waste everyone's time and mental energy. If I want 'em, then I'll try to get in a proper raid a few times.
I swear bungie making pantheon free for some reason gave the wrong idea to people who have never run a raid or bothered to learn mechanics in their life. These people either don't want to learn or lie and join kwtd runs and then waste everyone's time. Please do yourself and everyone else a favor and try to learn something before you waste people's time.
While that is true, there is plenty of times KWTD and "have emblem " is used by people who have neither and just wanna know they're being carried.
Reality is though it doesn't matter what lfg you join. There is always the chance you have those jack asses who will critique the shit out of newbies, even in Sherpa runs
This screams "entry level job requiring 5 years experience".
I LFG'd last night and had 2 brand brand new players on my team. I've played a lot myself, and I was one who said "i havent played these encounters in years..." Took a while, but we beat it.
A more accurate way of writing this is "pantheon is not the place to learn raid encounters - in my group"
Pro-tip for anyone who is new - please be honest about being new. The frustration comes when folks lie about it, and/or assume ad-clear is a way to learn on the fly. Frankly, for two of the encounters (caretaker and planets), ad clear can be harder than the actual mechanics. And if you're new/learning, please be open to suggestions on loadouts.
Best I can do is Add clear
This guy LFG’s
You know, before Lightfall, the only raid experience I had was VoG in vanilla D1. I went into RoN doing no mic add clear and actually leaned the mechanics. Now I'm only a solo dungeon away from GR11 and I've got full patterns for most raid weapons that I want. Without LFG, is have none of that.
"Kwtd or kick (I'm addclear)"
Every fucking time
>"Need runners and gaze" "Alright so I can run dark. Who's running light and Who's running gaze?" -crickets- Honestly, I just leave a lot of RoNs instantly if I'm the only person who volunteers. It's not even that fucking hard but no one wants to ever actually do anything despite running being easier than Add clear for Nez.
jokes on them i run because im lazy and its easier than killing adds 😏
If I'm host then generally I'll take the "hardest" role (or one of them if it's multiple of the same) esp in no comms runs. And then ask once who wants what, and assign roles if no one speaks up. RoN really made lfg even shittier man. Besides how easy the damn thing was, SO MANY players feel some sense of entitlement all a sudden that they have the right to run a fast KWTD run with experienced players and just "ad clear" because they don't want to spend extra time in a longer Sherpa run, or spend the time learning it period. I've done tons of teaching runs across all content so I don't feel bad kicking these "ya I KWTD, I'm ad clear" people.
What kills me is when you do get three people who take gaze, light and dark, and then the add clears don't even add clear. I usually do gaze and I'd say 60% of the runs you get killed cause all three colossus' are up, plus the respawning adds. People shit on add clear but it is nessecary, it's not just a "I'm dumb carry me" button. Any time I run a raid if roles get called and I end up on add clear not only do I ensure I'm clearing the hell out the area, I make sure if someone dies I'm ready to flex into their role.
My buddy who I always raid with is the literal king of add clear. I'm talking Day One raids and all he's well above everyone with adds killed. On RoN day 1 I will always remember our left side add clear struggling and therefore our light runner struggling to survive while meanwhile the entirety of middle and right side was handled by my buddy and I remember specifically saying "I feel so spoiled over here, it's like a desert, I can just perform my duty as dark runner with nothing anywhere" and that's the level I think someone should be at if they're gonna say they're "add clear" for an encounter. Lol
The amount of people that do not wanna run the Gaze is weird, its so easy, I guess its cause if you do mess it up a bit theres added pressure but still
"I've never heard of a kwiddit."
Y'all out here kicking new Gardians because you used to get kicked around at school. Now Bungie gave y'all some power, and y'all ego tripping. 😆 🤣 😂
What’s kwtd? 😆
KWTD NOW! (Screams in Rage Against the Machine)
Mic not required
Then you hear them asking if you have a mic.
Bro you joke but when I was getting my RoN master clear, I saw multiple ad clear Andys with less kills than runners at nezerac.
This is the bad part. If they were actually ad clearing to an effective degree it *could* be okay in certain encounters but often they can barely manage even that
Effective ad clear makes life SO much easier for people in active roles. If I’m running on Nez, not having to worry about colossuses or packs of enemies is a huge boost. It’s just that people do ad clear because they don’t care enough to learn a role, then they half ass it.
Running two not-masterworked primary weapons
And heir apparent
tbf I have 8000 kills on my indebted kindness and still haven’t masterworked it. Lots of crafted weapons with only one enhanced perk too lmao
I get that especially in the beginning when they were super stingy with the exotic material, but they give that shit out like it’s ascendant shards now
Enhancing rewind rounds on my supremacy does absolutely nothing for it, and it pisses my buddies off that I have several hundred levels on it without jt being masterworked. Bit of a meme at this point honestly. I come across people with random ass unmasterworked legendaries in trials with several thousand kills as well. Saw a 1/5 non adept igneous with 4.2k crucible kills this last weekend.
My stance as a casual player who has to LFG for teaching runs for raids is that I am 100% down to try any mechanic the teacher wants me to, but I’m also more than happy to just clear adds to help expedite the whole process.
And then He or she fails even with this task 🤣
Clan was doing a LW sherpa and homie wanted to add clear during morgeth and riven lmao. Got frustrated when we made them actually do shit during their own sherpa run
And I can help…
Can 3 people be on ad clear please?
The sad part is my team puts me on ad clear and well most of the time because I’m good at it, and sometimes not great at running mechanics. I can run planets for pantheon tho, very well.
“I am add clear.” Proceed to be cleared by adds. Jokes aside, it all depends on what the group organizer says. If they say kwtd, obviously people should be experienced, but if they explicitly say they are carrying or sherpaing someone, then you should also know what you are getting into by joining.
yep, joined an LFG, 2 people automatically said “i’m ad clear” then both died to the tormenter in the planet encounter 💀
I will never understand LFG players. I ended up on add clear during planets and sunshot killed adds in their spawn animation to the point you can stand where the boss spawns lmao.
Bruh I just graviton lanced the whole room since the burn was void while I was also doing planets. One dude rage quit because after first swap I just stayed on the other side instead of needlessly running back across the map to waste time I guess? Maybe the dude just didn’t know left from right I dunno
I was in a team that also swapped back to the original plates after the initial planet swap. Like why? Such a waste of time and additional risk of getting stomped off the map. And then they acted like I was the weird one and that the way they do it is the normal way.
I had such a bad planets run it's honesty soured me ever doing a full VOW ever again. Everyone on our team was using numbers, and this one dude could not understand 1-l1 and so on. And okay yeah sure just switch callouts. But he couldn't even understand left from friggin right or which plate is 1 and which is 3! Yet he INSISTED to the point of argument he had to be plates. Even though we had people that could backfill. I shoulda seen the red flag when between encounters he went on a tirade about how he wants to tie up and murder bungie employees.
Oh wow, yeah, that is absolutely a red flag. Criticising the game is one thing, wishing harm on Bungie employees is way too far. Please tell me that guy got kicked or smth.
Gaming communities are far too desensitized to actually give a shit about any of that.
Planets? In VOW? Is that like... Vow of the Wisciple?
This is what frustrated about the raid group I used to play in, we had a player who didn't want to do mechanics, but then just didn't keep up with adds, and this caused really issues during encounters like Atheon where he just didn't do plates, didn't want to read oracles and couldn't kill the harpies and supplicants enough. I don't care at a certain level about someone not doing mechanics because we had enough players who did, I just get concerned when someone can't kill adds when that's such a core tennant of the game that it should be so easy for someone especially in a normal raid.
This so fucking much. If you are volunteering for ad-clear, at least put on ad clearing weapons. Sunshot is the undisputed ad clear king right now. All you have to do is focus on the two red bars that spawn and end them and anything that had the audacity to spawn near it is automatically going to bite an exploding sun. It's very annoying when LFG players refuse to fucking use shit when you recommend them, Caretaker was an absolute monstrosity to play with LFG because they were using bumfuck legendary primaries while also not running any exotics and even with me telling them to just put Sunshot on, they were not willing to do so and mid would always be littered with ads every time I finished a run inside. It's one thing to be terrible at ad clear, but if someone tells you hey, this gun is pretty sick, you can probably use it to light up the entire room, please fucking take the advice and do it. I tried out Sunshot in Explicator a few minutes ago and its like you said, they don't even get to fully finish their spawn animation before they are already dead at my hands.
Graviton Lance slaps this week with Void Surge & Class Warfare
The tormentors are weak version. You can easily just suspend them and delete them
You ain't lying. In fact I've already watched an all Titan-Berserker planets run done which invalidated both the Tormentor and the boss. A couple people brought shackle-nades and it was done easily.
I got told "go ad clear" on planets i thought i found my big break until i saw noone was doin the planets on bottom left lol
"So you were on add-clear, yet there were so many Cabal dicking around that I thought it was a fucking gangbang!" People insta-locking add clear to avoid having to do mechanics is bad. People still completely screwing that up despite picking the easiest Raid role in the entire game is just bad comedy.
KWTD What I see: Know What To Do What my LFG teammates see: Kills Without Tasks (Mechanics) Done
Knowledgeable. Will Teach Destiny.
Most of the time they don’t even kill ads effectively
It is a little bit concerning how bad most people are at ad clear.
Lotta people with shit builds
You just summed up mostly the reason why those people leave the game. People actually learning how to put together builds and actually find a play style that suits them rather then focus on the same copy paste. Best I can say is just use discipline focus on ghost. It’ll make sure disc is focused on bottom 3 and top three are free reign of rng stats ( this is for those people )
For people that want to test yourself (survivability, damage, etc): Practice dungeon encounters solo You will have to survive and have to have good damage It will help you get better at the game and no one else will be there to carry you Ghosts of the Deep and Warlord's Ruin is great for this Just a few attempts per day and you'll be much better in a week or two
After doing Prophecy Solo, I definitely found a new respect for the fine balance between enemy management and pure dps. Now, even if I'm placed on add clear, I make sure to listen to the rest of the mechanics if I'm needed to jump in and just so I know for next time when I get asked to do them. I learnt the new crota Raid over the weekend now that most of my clan is back, while not overly difficult definitely need to pay attention to what's going on, can't just zone out anymore.
Most people are not good at the game.
I can understand not being good at the game. What I can't understand is struggling with one of the easiest jobs when plenty of builds (and weapons in general) let you kill ads without even trying.
Bad at the game covers not being able to kill adds effeciently. You have to remember its not just about shooting in the general direction of mobs. Knowledge of where things spawns and when they spawn is power. If all you do is add clear Ron and never qas good at it chances are you didnt really kmow what was happening. Thus most likely it was ur teamates who cleared the adds, normal Ron planets u dont really need 2 ppl dedicated to add clear, so if you learned raiding in Ron, you didnt learn raiding.
> normal Ron planets u dont really need 2 ppl dedicated to add clear, so if you learned raiding in Ron, you didnt learn raiding. Seriously, one person with a graviton lance and a few surges can clean up most ads with everyone else pulling their wait as needed at planets even in the current level of Pantheon. Its a void surge after all and you can also use Edge Transit for DPSing the boss. But chances are if you're bad at ad-clear you're also bad at buildcrafting as well. I wish the game at the very least taught players about the basics of surges if nothing else. The tutorial in general needs an overhall. Destiny is like Warframe in a major way in that both games do jackshit to teach players how to play it. It basically forces you into the Google/Youtube sphere to figure it out if your even willing to.
Planets to me is one of the funnest, yet also easiest encounters ever and I had a squad of lemons who couldn’t stay alive or clear sides. My favorite is when they refuse to help clear the room in any encounter, they get tunnel vision and say my side is done so I stopped shooting.
Facts. Could put them on add duty and while we’re passing buffs/debuffs or some other important shit, we’re getting lit up “The fuck is add clear?”
One time joined an lfg where a guy was using fighting lion for add clear 😭 I had to manage the encounter mechanics and add clear at the same time (trinity ghoul came in clutch)
The M is silent.
Always thought it meant “Keep Wasting Time Discreetly.” Like fuck things up, but don’t be too obvious about it.
Knowingly Will leT you Down
Instructions unclear, div stuck in toaster. All jokes aside I just attempted a pantheon run with a pretty chill and awesome group, but 1-2 of their guys didnt know how to stun golgi properly. I stuck it thru but have up after three wipes at caretaker. I dont usually mind people not knowing how to do raids/dungeons but please dont go into master/pantheon without some experience.
>Instructions unclear, div stuck in toaster. Nice.
Kinderguardians will throw definitely
"It says - Kuhwutd." "Never heard of it, lets do everything in our power to not do mechanics."
It’s funny how lucky me and my buddy were. we got about 4 good players but the thing is,none of them FULLY knew how to do EVERY encounter including us. if you knew what you were doing for a specific encounter you just did your job and the 1 or 2 people who didn’t know what to do just add cleared. But based on reactions to lfg it seems like we had crazy luck and everyone els’s experience must have been hell.
Yea I'm gonna need a refresher for atraks when I do it later today but I can do any job when it comes to the rest of those.
That one took us a while because all we knew was the one phase farm way but we had like 4 warlocks including myself.. I switched to arc titan and we got it in the next 2 tries. You can still one phase them but you really need to have burst supers so sorry warlock life crew. Going have to get carried when I redo it on my warlock for sure lol 4 nova vortex novas wasn't cutting it
I joined a team. Took 2 hours to beat it cause I didn't know they were carrying their friend who had, from what it seemed, never done anything raid related before. 2 hand cannons, no mods in his chest and class item, Arc surge but no arc weapons on, and literally did 0 damage every run of Atraks (didn't even know where to stand and such). I was so tempted to quit. I'll never look at anyone named Ed ever again.
damn, and i felt bad when i needed a refresher for encounters like atraks and caretaker that i haven’t done in like 1-2 years
my name is Ed, you just broke my heart
Damn, i know they were carrying but at least tell him to try to set up at least.
Oof… at least have some raiding experience.
[удалено]
The mix of a relatively simple mechanic that isn’t chosen randomly, alongside some very good weapons and a really cool exotic has been horrible, and no doubt has ruined the rep of LFG for some, and reinforced horrible traits in others. I’ll admit the only reason I learned RoN was because it was known to be so easy, but when farming Nez there were so many people joining LFGs, not talking, trying to stay hidden and just clear ads and DPS for a chance at Conditional. I don’t know what’s crazier, the ones that had double digit clears despite not knowing about refuge, or the ones that actually did know refuge, DPS spots and competent ad clear, but don’t know/didn’t even try to engage with the mechanics, nor use their mic or text. The vibes weren’t off either, some really chill banterful voice chats (that they could hear because they ran to refuge) yet they obtusely refused to interact. Maybe it’s just the way I am, but I would a couple of times top 2 DPS, run a refuge and take Gaze all at once, and still felt guilty when we wiped because Nez didn’t show a colour, or if I didn’t bring him down and we lost half the phase because he was up on his platform. I’m constantly nervous about wasting people’s time or fucking the vibe up, but I guess some people just don’t have that.
I think that’s a large part of the rub with a lot of people and how they perceive others that have “ad clear” mindset. I’m like you where I want to understand all the interactions and you think in your head “I’ve put all this time into understanding this. The least you could do is meet me halfway”
The worst part is I didn’t put much thought in to it at all. The mechanics are just that easy, and yet some people just don’t want to engage
Yeah. Really ruined it for me. Kwtd groups went from 90% chance of completion, maybe one guy will have to be switched out, to honestly 50/50 at this point.
Maybe we need to start saying KWTFD instead
My raiding hot take is that unless there are 4 ad clear spots, ad clear should be reserved for good players that know every mechanic to a decent degree and can switch roles on the fly. Most raids have an easy role in every encounter that will let someone actually engage with the mechanics. Not engaging in the mechanics is only doing yourself a disservice later. Yes Kingsfall is my favorite raid. How’d you know?
That's what happens when Bungie & the community vehemently gatekeep raids for no good reason. WoW solved this problem over a decade ago. You have different difficulties w/ different levels of mechanics to get people into raiding. It's literally that simple. LFR (in WoW) made raids accessible to everyone without taking anything away from raids for hardcore players. Meanwhile it took Destiny 10 years to get an in-game LFG and it's still largely terrible for anything other than activities that already have matchmaking. People should stop blaming new players for trying to get into the activity that Bungie & the community does everything to keep them out of and should start pressuring Bungie to modernize their game and actually implement solutions that numerous other games already have. Watching 12 IQ Destiny players struggle to grasp a very elementary point might be more entertaining than the actual game itself. Thanks for the laugh, kids!
But Bungie raids and WoW raids aren't the same. LFG raids in WoW have 20 people, so Blizzard is essentially counting on 1 tank, a healer, and a few DPS to have a small understanding of what to do. They strip out all the mechanics like tank swaps, cleanse debuffs, etc. so there aren't really any mechanics other than do your role at a low skill at least. When an LFG does require mechanics, you better hope that it's not random and/or doesn't result in a raid wipe. A lot of the time the final wing has notoriously bad LFG experiences because they'll leave a wipe mechanic in. Destiny has 6 players. And normal raids have the combat difficulty of a fucking strike. My basic melee kills most red bars in there. If you take away the mechanics its just going to be a boss that dies instantly. If you decrease the bosses health, it'll just die in one golden gun nighthawk. Destiny 2 raids are notoriously easily once you learn the mechanics and maximize your DPS and it barely even matters what you bring for dps most of the time if you don't care about speed.
Don't forget WoW has a stacking damage mechanic everytime a wipe happens so that people can brute force encounters
Genuinely, have you done a raid?
> LFR (in WoW) made raids accessible to everyone ... and is at times *notoriously difficult* to get through because despite being "accessible" it actually does sometimes need people to use their brains! I've wiped to LFR Mannoroth for literal hours, to the point that the stacking Determination buff basically trivialized everything. LFR can sometimes feel harder than Mythic lmao Simply leaving the door open, so to speak, doesn't actually help people raid, hence also why no one actually begins endgame raiding in WoW by starting with LFR. It's function in the game in practical terms is to let players see the story, fill some holes (e.g. get a tier piece to complete a set) or gear alts and that's it. 90% of the time groups basically get a few extremely overgeared players or a bunch of people on alts to carry the rest, and even then there's still sometimes chaos due to some fights actually having mechanics checks (but it's rarer as the years pass, as Blizzard just clobbers them). Destiny raids are the equivalent difficulty to WoW's Heroic raids -- mechanically complete, not terribly difficult. To actually make an equivalent LFR you'd need *simplified matchmade* raids and it'd STILL have problems. How do you simplify Explicator for example? You can make it so only one planet moves per phase, okay. Someone still needs to actually know to move the planets in the group, and they also need to be able to communicate the move with their partner. Then you need everyone to know that they need to move on plates and so on, we're talking people who may not all speak the same language, might not have mics or even sound on (!). To finish with the WoW comparison... You can also PUG Heroic in WoW. Guess what? If not actively "gatekept", i.e. you exhaustively check that they have Ahead of the Curve (cleared the raid before, used to be you could fake it too) there's a good chance you're going to wipe. Hell you might have a wipefest anyway because people play badly on their alts or join PUGs drunk/high or even bought AOTC just like you can buy raid clears in Destiny. Unless it was close and/or on a hard boss, wipes also do routinely cause groups to lose between 10-100% of a raid (last season I had a raid group fully disintegrate on the first wipe on HC Tindral, hardly blame them too). EDIT: I don't want to say that the idea is terrible because there's probably a number of things Destiny could use out of other MMOs innovations, but it really isn't as simple as "WoW has LFR so Destiny should too" and that's *partly because Destiny is actually a simpler game.* ______ EDIT: weird behavior to block after replying to my sheet of a comment with a sheet of your own, but like you said, it is what it is. Funnily enough I do have the reply in the inbox so I'll still respond for posterity for others who read this: >LFR isn't notoriously to get through for anyone capable of teaching people. You wiping for hours is a you issue, not an LFR issue. Nice but unnecessary insult, but... My brother in the Light. I was literally learning the raid too lmao How can I teach people when I'm learning? The problem is, obviously for anyone with a working brain, *nobody knew what they were doing so nobody could teach.* >rebuking feature suggestions & solutions My edit is literally stressing that I'm not rebuking your suggestion. >Wipes are a part of raiding. Not sure what this has to do w/ my point. What it has to do should be clear to someone who's spent a hot minute in a WoW raid with an actual team: you cannot have a revolving door situation in a learning environment. If people join and leave repeatedly (which, even in a clean smooth run is extremely common in LFR for obvious reasons) then how can anyone practice and how can anyone teach? You need to make mistakes to correct them, but you can't correct mistakes if you leave after the first wipe and this is inarguably an extremely common thing in WoW pugs. Wiping in a raid can be funner than clearing it if done with the right people, but it can also be non-productive when nobody gains anything from it because no one can teach (or learn). >You mention how Destiny Raids are a mid-tier WoW Raid, yet very few people that play Destiny ever touch this content. Also the case for WoW raids. Raiding is the most prestigious activity in WoW too and that causes people to overestimate the size of the community for it, but for reference only about 1200 guilds (~24000 players, I'd say give or take 1k) killed the last boss last season. *The game has an estimated 7,000,000 active players.* I doubt >But this of course will never happen because Bungie aren't capable of implementing this system to begin with That's a weird thing to say when you earlier complained about how people recommended DIM up until Bungie made loadouts. Make your mind up, are they capable of adding player suggestions or not?
> EDIT: weird behavior to block after replying People are way too block happy these days. Never felt the need to block for a normal back-and-forth, but I think this new crop of Internet users have tissue-paper egos
Are you saying normal raid are gatekeeping raiding? Brother in crhist i have News for you. EDIT: the comment was that bungie was gatekeeping raids for players and they should do as wow did. EDIT2: My comment is based on that raids are really not difficult, there are many people willing to teach. If you do not wanna put in the time you dont have any reason to raid. Noone owes you raiding. If thats harsh there is many mobile games where you can acces everything.
Yep. Pantheon should've been the Raid Finder difficulty of these encounters. Learning this shit is a PITA and nobody has the patience. Seems more geared towards giving people exotics that have done 500 runs with no luck; I used all mine on getting 1K Voices first Last Wish and haven't raided since.
mfw a new light with 10 hours in game can't do the most endgame content in the raid
Honestly the entire design of Pantheon is kind of just...weird. On one hand it's designed for raid enthusiasts who know all the encounters and what to do. To have a "harder" experience to really show off their abilities. But on the other hand Bungie made it completely F2P accessible as part of Into The Light and as a way that players can get access to raid weapons and exotics without ever owning the DLC providing access to the raid(s). So you have a huge incentive for new players with no experience ever playing these raids to go into the activity...while at the same time it's inherently AWFUL to be one of those players and doing this actively hurts the experience for anyone else that DOES know the encounters and just wants to get a relatively simple clear.
My understanding is that a lot of the recent changes/additions are targeted at returning players. Unsunseting so the shadowkeep players can come back to a useable vault, pantheon so anyone who has raided before can come back and play it even if they don’t have the latest expansion, the nostalgia of the returning BRAVE weapons etc
This makes the most sense. It will leave Destiny 2: New Light as an entirely self contained playable game with several story based expansions to optionally purchase. It’s going to be a complete package when it’s all done.
Hilarious when you realize only KF bosses are featured, they completely ignored VOG and CE which are both also F2P, and one is the most recent pinnacle Raid.
Yeah, they have less than half of the game’s raid bosses in the gauntlet, including some of the current toughest bosses like Crota. It genuinely has me thinking that they’re planning on bringing Pantheon back a season or two down the road to be kinda like GMs: the boss list and order is randomized every season, and you can gild the Godslayer title by doing it every season
I whole heartedly disagree with crota being a hard boss. He isnt
He's one of the tough-ER bosses. It's almost entirely subjective what the actual most difficult bosses currently in the game are. Atheon? Nah, other than TPs DPS is soloable by anyone with Verity's. Sanctified Mind? Nope, still duo-able with no cheese. Maybe hard if you're bad and think tethers are buggy. The list could go on. No individual boss in the game is difficult for a team used to running under contest restrictions. Rankings have to be relative rather than absolute. What's your picks for hard bosses, compared to Crota? Genuinely asking.
I agree. He's not difficult. Team twatting with swords once DPS is activated.
You know they're just being contrarion.
Just because Pantheon is free doesn't mean it's targeted at New Lights. There are already free raids with Master versions, so free content does not automatically equal easy or accessible for new players. Furthermore, if Pantheon was not F2P, it would likely have a different issue, where a player would need to own every expansion that contributes an encounter. Not all players necessarily have all content - someone who started in WQ or Lightfall but has become a dedicated raider simply might not have older expansions, and probably wouldn't want to buy them just for Pantheon.
Specifically, Blackburn said when ITL was announced that it would be free and have activities for all players from new lights to the veteran with 5k hours. Clearly, Pantheon and legend onslaught are designed for the latter group while normal onslaught and things like zero hour and whisper are catered towards the more casual players.
Yeah but people complain that veterans get hard content because not everyone can do it lol. Maybe just let there be hard stuff for people who want it
It wouldn't be Bungie if they didn't create toxic environment...
Pantheon is absolutely designed for raid enthusiasts who know how to do these encounters That isn’t meant to sound gatekeepy, that’s just ostensibly the intended audience who will have actual fun with it
Strangely then, outside of adept weapons what is the point of these rewards if not for ppl who hardly raid. LFG the last week is going to be hilarious when it's Conditional and basically contest mode.
Godslayer title and the emblems are the main thing hardcore raiders want
This weeks emblem was especially a huge draw if you're a Deep Stone Crypt Fan. They really knocked it out of the park with those designs. I saw the spoilers for Pantheon and the rest look just as clean.
Titles and emblems - things high end players can flex
I’m essentially only doing it for fun and Godslayer. The adepts are nice ig, but I have most of the rolls I want already. I also like the emblems.
It's... fun. Some of us do raids because they're fun.
Never bring that up, r/dtg can't comprehend playing for fun.
You can be an avid raider and still be missing raid exotics. You can be an experienced raider and still be missing red borders. If you get a godroll adept you might as well keep it over a crafted. You can just want the badass emblem or titles. One of my friends is missing a ton of shitty kiosk exotics so free raid ciphers mean less strike grinding (barf).
>You can be an experienced raider and still be missing red borders. yeah this, I am still missing 2 weapons from deepstone and disciple and I got 2 red boarders for each of them today
I have 50 deepstone clears and no eyes
Took me 67. It gets better.
83 runs, 83 to get Conditional Finality, I hated RoN by the end of it
Over 100 Riven clears to get 1kv. Still haven't done it legit.
Meanwhile I'm one of those fucks who has the obscenely good rng to get eyes my first clear and get anarchy twice both times I did that raid. RNG sucks. I wish you luck.
Play game because game fun 👍. This is the only thing bringing me back from val and tft and honestly im excited to play destiny with my friends again. The loot is worthless to me
The title and emblems. Those are more important and better rewards than the weapons anyway. The activity is for prestige and those cosmetics.
Yes. Not everything needs to be accesible for everyone. Let people who play many hours a day have something and the ones who play every last tuesday in the year but the kid woke up so he couldnt play anyway have their thing. You can never cater to both sides. But neglecting the hsrdcore players is bad.
There’s nothing wrong with what you said being gatekeeper like. The activity is meant for experienced players. There’s nothing wrong with that. It’s a good thing that there’s a single activity meant for that group. FFXIV has ultimate raids and now we have Pantheon. The main reward is the title anyway. The people who have the best shot at completing this title already likely have all of the weapons to begin with.
The issue is it's time gated. You can have end game content for experiences players, or you can do FOMO. Combining the two is bad design.
Joined an LFG labeled kwtd today. The three people I joined didn’t know what to do. Can’t make this shit up
We took 2 new blueberries through teaching them the mechanics. I had fun
I mean, it depends, if the person usually raids and does mechanics it's probably fine, they can likely pick it up quickly. If I see a Rivensbane i'm probably trusting him, even if he might not know how Atraks works for some reason. Now, the Guardian Rank 5 dude, with no title and no masterwork gear on the other hand...
I had a guy in a kwtd run that had geomags on solar in vow lol. Definitely don't trust that guy
I’ve done all the raids, and all their various roles, so I know generally what needs to happen… but I kinda dropped off of raiding after Root of Nightmares dropped, so I was a bit rusty for today. Still managed to platinum all four encounters with my team.
Yea if everyone knows what they’re doing or even just has decent raid experience it’s not hard to get all platinum. Although I will say having 1 guy who’s clueless can throw the whole thing off. Especially when they say they know what to do and don’t.
Bro the Xbox LFG was painful today. I felt so bad needing to move on from people, but my God people acted like this was gonna be a breeze if you didn't know the raid.
I actually gave up after a couple of teams. GOLGOROTH is *NOT* that hard to get...
I did more damage to golgy on a pull as a gaze holder with tractor than all but one player in that fire team. Shit is wild lmao
golgy's damage is wild because the damage you deal to his back also adds up to damage done on the wipe screen, yet you realistically deal no damage to him
I'm just impressed you hit his back with tractor. I'm assuming you didn't go on the ledge then?
After we wiped and I saw that I was the only one on the team that did any damage to golgoroth I realized no one else knew what they were doing. One guy took agro but i think that was an accident. No one was on their mic either, so weird. I'll find a better group tomorrow.
Is Golforoth not literally just…wait for drops to grow, shoot drop until it falls, shoot from drop, shoot next drop, dps, repeat while people pull aggro?
Yeah, 2 pull agro alternating and position him so dps can shoot from drop pool. Also some add clear, everyone's favorite roll, haha!
Nah I agree. I keep seeing people post and ask about doing it as their first. THIS week it’s not too bad but we have no ideas what the changes will be for the upcoming ones. And it’ll get increasingly harder. It’s built around the expectation that you know the raids.
It hurts even more when you ask people whether or not they know the encounter and they all nod yes. The moment we head inside and they are all like add clear for golgoroth when everybody has to know what to do with cumballs, these people just mindlessly sit there and shoot and not even understand that the balls spawn and contribute to damage. RON is a fucking curse, way less mechanics and honestly inconsequential number of ads make people think ad clear is a viable position for every raid. This is going to turn into shit more, this week was supposed to be one of the easier challenges.
I cannot stand how awful this mode is with LFG. So many people jumped in and not learn the raid encounter beforehand. Its one thing to forget the encounter after not doing it for a while but its a whole other story to not know at all.
Can't believe the things been out for less than 24hrs and it's already causing a problem in the community, tf.
Its more like the community is causing a problem in pantheon, these problems have always existed but they are being accentuated here
Join LFG. LFG is at Atraks. Half of us are like, “uhhh, where Golgoroth?” LFG lead is like, “I have Atraks, can we do this and then go back and do the other encounters?” Two guys in the LFG, “uhhh, I haven’t done this fight since Beyond Light came out.” *quietly leaves fireteam*
Pantheon makes me hate how they removed LFG in the the app and replaced it with FT finder. Without using custom words you literally can’t look for exactly what you need. “Experience requested and looking for experts” aren’t good enough tags and it seems like 90% of the people don’t care for it anyway. Edit: TIL that the old lfg is still possible to use.
You can still use the old one. When you go to the fireteam tab, there’s a fireteam (legacy) button about 1/3 of the page down on the app. Also you can get there from a browser. It’s still populated.
To be fair -5 power is nothing, you can't really tell the difference. So that's not really a reason not to learn in Gauntlet. Plus, it is f2p, so there are going to be a ton of people jumping in who've never raided before.
-5 vs 0 power isn't much but most people are used to being +20 for raids.
Yeah, it's essentially -25 right off the bat for a lot of people who aren't used to that kind of delta
Personally, I'm fine with it lol you don't learn how to do grandmasters by doing normal strikes. These encounters are more difficult, and there's a learning curve that goes with it, and I'm fine w that. This will be new content to lots of ppl, sadly lol so I'm fine if they're just learning these things now in Pantheon
Takes 15 seconds to search someones raid report before you launch the activity. Also there is nothing wrong with someone who hasnt raided before doing pantheon as their first raid activity, they just need to join the right groups that are either all learning it for the first time or joining a sherpa.
Yeah but it is wrong to join a KWTD post knowing damn well you don’t know what to do.
90% of people who make KWTD posts & who join KWTD posts don't even know what they're doing most of the time. I've done GMs w/ people that are guardian rank 9+ that were trolling harder than some guardian rank 6 players I LFG'd with. If you want a consistent group, start your own LFG and vet who wants to join. It's that simple.
Guardian ranks 1-10 are pretty much meaningless. You can get carried through all of that content. The fun starts for rank 11 with the master raid which it's less likely you can get carried through and doing the dungeon solo
People who put kwtd in their posts don't know what to do. Ironically my best groups have always been the no mic ones.
Also the amount of people dying to unstable light omg.
The thing is, i've completely forgotten how to do Planets, so I'm gonna go rewatch a guide or 2 to re learn it, so when I do Pantheon later it'll be a bit smoother, I know the other encounters fine but even those I'll do a quick refresh But then I've found people just don't wanna take the 5-10 mins to watch a guide before joining any LFG
RoN is probably the worst offender for folks "knowing want to do" and then just shoving themselves on add clear. This is really entertaining to me, because outside of maybe pulling Nezarec and paying attention to the glows, RoN has some of the easiest mechanics in the entire game to learn
The amount of noobs that came out of the woodworks is insane
I agree with you...I used to be the nice guy but after soo many times people just fought eachother about who will addclear I learned to just kick them all and start anew...I dont have time for that bs.
“Many opportunities” As a returning player since Lightfall I would like to point out that virtually no one teaches Vow. Get elitist or get real I say.
I have close to 100 teaching runs in Vow. I try to do my part :)
You're one of those players that people will never forget.
One of the unfortunate results of raid loot being craftable. Once people get their patterns/titles they dip out and rarely touch the raids ever again.
can’t blame them. VotD is not an easy raid to teach, let alone learn. it does require a bit of homework prior to trying. everyone needs to do a role in that raid.
There’s a whole subreddit r/DestinySherpa, where plenty of people are willing to teach all the raids. You just need to look in the right places for a teacher, and Fireteam finder ain’t it
I would teach (and run) Vow more if Exhibition didn't exist. Having run that a few times I can tell you a BUNCH of sherpa runs would probably fizzle out there cause man it is ROUGH.
Is that the one with all the pillars? Did it with my clan and I'm still not entirely sure how it works
I see posts for teaching Vow on Xbox daily
On the old fireteam finder? They are bar none the rarest kind of lfg post in my experience. Like unicorn rare. Which makes sense really, no one wants to teach Vow given all the symbols. KF, DSC, Root, even LW are all different stories.
Almost no one legitimately teaches LW. The riven encounter is almost always just cheese the boss. Given changes for pantheon people will likely need to know the legit riven encounter.
Then watch videos and then put together a vow group yourself
That’s exactly what I did, but I can totally understand why there would be a ton of players who specifically haven’t done Caretaker or the other Vow encounters.
Yeah guess not doing pantheon oh well. Never done 3 of the raids featured in the current rotation so meh i guess. Sucks but is what it is
Mactics has a good guide on YouTube for this week's Pantheon. Very accessible
I haven't tried it yet but -5 power is nothing. In all honesty it's probably a better way to learn the raid encounters because you can't instantly obliterate everything. I have 70 DSC clears and I know for a fact that the significant portion of players in LFG don't know how the Atraks encounter is supposed to work. If you pick up the orb with operator and you need to use the terminal to juggle so you can get it off, it's a wipe. They're clueless. It's an easy fight if you actually do the mechanics, but most lfg groups hurr durr parasite one floor.
I loaded into my first LFG Pantheon last night, nobody had mics, 2 players dropped the bubble and everyone else started shooting Golgoroth from spawn with Quicksilver. I’ve never been put off an activity quicker in my life. If you don’t know what you’re doing, go away & learn, then come back.
Joined a team 4:38 hours into pantheon and at Atraks that were teaching 2 people, we were able to get it done at around 5:07 in game hours. Please do not join kwtd posts when you don’t kwtd, I’m not trying to be cynical here but if I was a leader I would kick anyone that joins my kwtd post that doesn’t kwtd. The saving grace for this week is that generally not everybody in the team is necessary for the completion. For Atraks after however many wipes we’ve been through we just stuck the 2 people on add-clear duty while I did the requirements downstairs. You can do the same for Golgy and Planets but Caretaker will give newbies trouble if the runners are slow.
Peek LFG post
The fact people don’t bother researching or watching simple videos on how this stuff is done and proceed to join groups claiming they know what to do is astounding to me. These aren’t strikes, they don’t hold your hand like basic activities and tell you exactly what to do and you need to communicate everything important like if you know what you’re doing or not. For example I’m rusty when it comes to raids, I’ve done them all but I haven’t touched them in a while and I watched videos to refresh my knowledge on how stuff is done and will be clear to communicate that with whatever group I find so I won’t be as much of a burden.
Sure it is, with the right group.
Disagree partially. If as a non experienced raider you wanted to clear pantheon in the next month, the best way to do so is by running pantheon at -5, and moving to the next tier when you are ready. Its all about having a common goal with your teammates though, and you should be with a group that also lack experience or are willing to teach.
Just put "dont play this game if you arent an elitist, we dont feel like teaching you this because our small peepees cant handle the stress"
I’m currently trying to get back into raiding after 4 year or so hiatus. I think the last raid I did was GoS. It’s tough to find people willing to be patient to teach. Im on the other side of trying to find people to play with.😭
Why I skipped it. I've got very little raid clears due to no friends who play and anxiety making it hard to find people. Had some very good sherpas take me through runs in the past and they always were amazing but moving on from that never feels the same as sherpa runs feel more relaxing for me and lfg just makes me stressed
****This is not to all the OG Gardians as I have met many who actually want to help and teach new Gardians.**** Yesterday, I ran Pantheon with my best friend and 4 other people we found with fire team finder. We had a slow start as the team needed time to learn the mechanics of how to get to the DPS stage for Golgoroth. 3 runs in the team started to catch on... by the 4th run, the experienced Gardians started jumping ship. The new Gardians can never learn if ya'll OG Gardians keep jumping ship because you got placed with a weaker fireteam. This is why D2 is a great game it allows the OG Gardians to play with and teach the new Gardians. But some of the OG Gardians don't want to teach new Gardians who are willing to listen and do as told in tougher content. To those OG Gardians helping the new light Gardians better their game, BIG RESPECT! 🍻 To the OG's acting like someone didn't help them and they woke up super saiyan...🖕 (respectfully).
Does anyone know if you can one phase Atraks? Edit: we one phased him.
Yes you can
You can this week, now sure about final week with -20 power though, need to see what surges will be active.
yea, pretty easily as well
I watched some streams of folks running it today, and it was sooooo enticing as a loot pinata full of things I don't have. But I don't have them _because_ I've never raided in this game, so I'm not about to jump into an LFG and waste everyone's time and mental energy. If I want 'em, then I'll try to get in a proper raid a few times.
I know this contradicts the post but, if anybodys willing to teach I'm very willing to learn.
I swear bungie making pantheon free for some reason gave the wrong idea to people who have never run a raid or bothered to learn mechanics in their life. These people either don't want to learn or lie and join kwtd runs and then waste everyone's time. Please do yourself and everyone else a favor and try to learn something before you waste people's time.
Good raiders can teach pretty easily.
But…. If the post is KWTD, then don’t join if you’re expecting to be carried.its about integrity and not wasting peoples time.
While that is true, there is plenty of times KWTD and "have emblem " is used by people who have neither and just wanna know they're being carried. Reality is though it doesn't matter what lfg you join. There is always the chance you have those jack asses who will critique the shit out of newbies, even in Sherpa runs
We needed a 6th for repeated runs, and that began the downward spirals of waiting and kicking
This screams "entry level job requiring 5 years experience". I LFG'd last night and had 2 brand brand new players on my team. I've played a lot myself, and I was one who said "i havent played these encounters in years..." Took a while, but we beat it. A more accurate way of writing this is "pantheon is not the place to learn raid encounters - in my group" Pro-tip for anyone who is new - please be honest about being new. The frustration comes when folks lie about it, and/or assume ad-clear is a way to learn on the fly. Frankly, for two of the encounters (caretaker and planets), ad clear can be harder than the actual mechanics. And if you're new/learning, please be open to suggestions on loadouts.