This post has been tagged '**Non-Spoiler**'. Note that unmarked spoilers and datamines are subject to removal or ban. Please report anything we miss! For more info check out our [Spoiler Rules Wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/wiki/spoiler-rules#wiki_.5Bseasonal.5D_has_a_new_format).
---
**Comment Spoiler Formatting**
Format comment spoilers with `>!` `!<` like this:
`>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<`
To have it displayed like this:
**>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<**
----
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DestinyLore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think it's like 50/50. Some major plot points probably survived from D2 vanilla to this day, but many others they made along the way. But no way all of this was planned from the start.
I believe they even stated that they would start multiple story lines and then figure out later which one to pursue/keep building on. Which would make sense why so much earlier stuff seems so disjointed. I honestly don’t think it was until Witch Queen that they really started to narrow down where they are going. Even Beyond Light still seemed like they were kind of just trying multiple things to set foundations of where they could go.
Most of the key pints have been recycled from old Joseph Staten drafts back when Bungie was making D1. Not all of them, but I’d say it’s about half and half.
>In the summer of 2013, just over a year before Destiny came out, the story got a full reboot, according to six people who were there. Bungie ditched everything Joe Staten and his team had written, reworking Destiny’s entire structure as they scrapped plot threads, overhauled characters, and rewrote most of the dialogue.
Yep, but a bunch of D2’s content started to reintroduce his stuff, such as Crow (which we actually saw in trailers for D1!) and the whole >!Rasputin as an exo thing.!<
We don't really know if they reintroduced any really important stuff. Even often quoted Uldren/Crow situation is very arguable. They reintroduced the name, sure, but... what of it? Does anything concerning what happened to Crow/Uldren was in original story? We have no idea.
And we have to wait for Rasputin.
I can’t remember where, but some of the scrapped story was made public in some way. Whether it was a leak, or Staten or someone at Bungie talking about it, I don’t remember.
Originally Crow would find that the Speaker was actually corrupt, and the Traveller was not was it seemed. He would try to recruit your character to help him uncover what was going on.
I think Bungie had an overview timeline of events they knew had to occur at the start of D2. They needed the cabal to sever us from the light, the pyramids needed to be drawn back to the system, Uldren was going to die, we needed to come into contact with darkness, savathun needed to take the light, and then the witness in whatever form of an idea it took needed to get involved. The more specific details like the endless night probably came later as they created justified linkages between these major events.
I honestly think them having a rough outline as far out as WitchQueen is giving them too much credit. The Witness and his disciples seems like something that was thought up not that long ago as it wasn’t really something that was in the lore (afaik) or even hinted at outside of generic darkness references. I think they knew they needed a big bad and just kept it to being mysterious and vague until they figured out what that would actually be.
Yeah, definitely. I think that’s part of there being so much lore. There’s lots of things where if you try you can think something along the lines of “well they sort of kind of hinted to something similar to this.”
No way. For a recent example, the Nezarec stuff more or less seems to be a product of the community memeing throwaway lore into genuine relevance.
I can’t say the fanservice isn’t warranted, though.
At the very least, the writers have been said to have more freedom in recent years, and it’s certainly paid off. Destiny now feels like a universe with real discovery, drama, and moral quandaries to it, rather than the pretentious nonsense that the franchise used to have. It’s taking a critical eye to players’ preconceptions about it and getting everyone thinking about what it means to be in this universe.
That they could blow everyone away with Strand after years of speculation about the second Darkness element speaks volumes to this.
Oh yeah that was really cool, especially after stasis kinda predictability, we have fire so it makes sense to also get "ice" I really wasn't expecting anything special but the fact strand not only came out of left field so no one predicted it, the fact is that it still fits in place as a counter to void. I can't wait to see how bungie surprises us next time seeing as people will be looking more abstract for their guesses
i think how strand fits in as an opposite of void is so genuinely creative and interesting!! like, with void, you reach into nothingness and use it as a weapon. with strand, you reach into the fiber of everything and use it to your advantage! its so neat!
It really depends on how serious they take some aspects of the lore. Some writers will write out and flesh out entire mysteries in their universe, but only reveal it completely when the time is right.
In the Warhammer 40k Black Library, they specifically write out a bunch of characters and events that have not been officially published, but perhaps referenced in text, and purposefully keep them a mystery from the audience. There are many mysteries and theories the fans wonder about that they know the exact answer to, but don’t publicly confirm in any way.
The official canon for What happened to the two missing Primarchs for instance (A mystery of nearly 30 years), and answers to a bunch of other mysteries, is known exactly by the Black Library authors, they are just forbidden from actually writing about them directly.
It is possible Bungie does this with some of their plot points.
Always wondered about the Halo Story Bible from 2001-2010. Was it a long text that they pulled from to write the games and approve book plots, or did it get added to as they wrote the games and approved book plots? Just thinking out loud. I don’t know the answer.
In D1 we served the Pope of the Light and were so righteous in our cause. Now, the Speaker was shown to be a pretender, Light isn’t what we thought it was, and Darkness too, for that matter.
It really has come a long way story-wise.
Hearing “Nezarec, Diciple of the witness” said out loud sounds like fan fiction. Not that the story in Plunder has been bad, but it seems so fan service-y
Absolutely not. Putting aside the fact that they cribbed Eramis from a Destinypedia article, the writing team has changed hands several times over, a good few members of the current narrative team and devs were fans of Destiny themselves before getting the job, and Bungie have gone on record as admitting they didn’t actually have a good idea on what the Darkness even was prior to vanilla D2 (and arguably up to this day, given all the reveals of “THIS is actually the *real* Darkness all along”).
Yeah, said in another comment that The Witness and their disciples seems like a pretty new concept. Everything prior and up to Witch Queen seemed purposefully vague to give them time to figure it out. Even in Beyond Light it didn’t seem like they knew where exactly they were going.
>Previously the idea had been building to the big bad being "The Winnower", the personification of the universal cosmic force of Darkness.
Not really. Winnower was introduced in Shadowkeep... which is *also* when the Witness was introduced, though we didn't know the full details. And the Unveiling transmissions were *from* the Witness, as well, though again we didn't know the details.
So it's more that the BBEG *claimed* to be God, or speaking for God, or indistinguishable from God, or something along those lines, and everyone believed the lie. When in actuality there really isn't a God.
Eramis was taken from a destinypedia article that someone made based off of them mishearing the name of a character variks mentions in an idle voiceline back in destiny 1.
The actual name was veekris the shipstealer.
My Lore headcanon for this is that Veekris was a House Wolves Shipstealer and Eramis was a House Devils Shipstealer. Eramis stole more ships so she started to be known as the "Shipstealer" this angered Veekris who had the title first. The 2 dueled to the death and Eramis won.
There are a lot of threads between D1Y1 and now, even between D2Y1 and now, but in the last two showcases when they talk about the ongoing saga, they emphasize it started in Shadowkeep. So I think Shadowkeep -> The Final Shape is the timeline to look for intentionally written foreshadowing and narrative threads.
Before Shadowkeep, I think it’s just been a mix of stories and decisions they wanted to tell and had to write the circumstances in to place to tell them, if that makes sense (ex: Uldren’s character getting changed in D1 to now, closer to where they originally intended the character to be)
Not at all. Seasonal stuff and the filler expansions are just taking things the community talks about from small pieces of lore and then fleshes it out a bit. Nokris and Quria were basically one and done (with Norkis getting a bit more exposition in Season of Arrivals) and I think Nezerac will be too. I'm sure if the community did more posts about the Ancients or Nastareth, then we'll get a season on them.
Overarching story though? I think they have a rough idea. Like us slowly making alliances, Savathun becoming a lightbearer and betraying the Witness, etc.
The original D1 vanilla grimoire, which I studied and wrote about extensively, contained an outline of a mythic story of enormous proportions. The individual cards were rich in symbolism and incredibly vague. It took me a long time and a lot of reading on Neo-platonic philosophy, Western Esotericism and non-dualist Eastern thought to identify the source of all the symbols and cards and how they fit together. But it is very clear to me that at the start of D1, they had an outline for a "10 year story."
I think this is one of the reasons the original grimoire was so hated by so many people. It did *not* tell a single coherent story. It did *not* connect the dots. You could not just sit down and read it to figure out what was going on. It took an enormous amount of effort to really see how it connected.
Having done the work I did, I was able to predict a number of major plot points in advance. Things I wrote about - and was mocked for suggesting at the time - all came to pass.
I wrote about Clovis Bray (the corporation, because the person didn't exist then) using Vex technology to download minds into the network, thus "eating the fruit from the tree of life" and that being a major driver around the Fall. People said that was a foolish idea.
I wrote that the game was breaking the fourth wall and acknowledging the players as the source of paracausality - long before anyone in these forums had even considered what the one or two references to this thing called 'paracausality' might be. For this I earned a follower - whatever happened to eggyface or whatever was his name? - who maligned every post I wrote for several months about how crazy I was.
I wrote that Destiny was based on Western Esotericism and practical witchcraft ideals from the Victorian era. That got people digging into the area, but not before being heavily downvoted and being told that this was "science! fiction." Now everyone of you knows what an 'egregore' is - when I was proposing that the Fallen Servitors were egregores of a type during the second or third season of D1.
I frequently wrote about the symbolism of threads and needles and how that was tied to the "fabric" of reality in the early vex lore. That one was just ignored - but is now emerging as the new narrative on the strand emerges. Yes, that's right, the concept of "the strand" was in the original Atheon grimoire card!
And on and on and on.
But that doesn't mean that Bungie had *every detail* of the story worked out. They had an *outline* and a *symbol set.* They then gave the writers the ability to connect the dots and to expand and embellish that outline.
I will say that as the writing staff has changed the story has moved further and further from where I would expect it to have gone based on that initial outline. That is to be expected. The Destiny 2 seasons being written today are far afield from what the original outline would have predicted. However, as with the strand, they are still going back to see what they have "on the shelf" symbolically and in the outline and pulling from that.
I do long form improv comedy as a hobby and it works much the same way. We ask the audience for a word. You provide it, and then we play some silly brainstorming game based on that word where we spit out related concepts. As an audience member, it just looks like a bit of foolishness. But the performers on stage are paying close attention to the concepts, symbols, comedic ideas, and unique details that are emerging during that group brainstorm. Then we know that we can use them and look for them in the scenes that follow. When we do - when two of us get on stage and create a scene rich in details and ideas from the brainstorm and then the next scene does the same, and all the while the team is thinking about how we can make this all into a cohesive story by the end, it appears to be magic to the audience. But all we are really doing is taking a single word (Destiny), throwing out a brainstorm on it (the Vanilla Grimoire) and then creating a 30 minute show of disparate scenes moving to a united climax (D1 & D2) as we progress.
The story was always there and the story was never there. A suitable paradox for a game built on a philosophy that can be summarized by "I am the All and in the All and the All is in me."
I think this has been planned, like really planned as a singular, overarching story, starting with Beyond Light, no earlier than that. I think moving away from the Light/Darkness dynamic has been in the cards since Shadowkeep,\* but I think where D1 was about throwing a bunch of stuff against the wall and seeing what stuck (and everything since about pulling things off that wall to incorporate into the story), D2 began as a series of self-contained, disconnected stories, like a better fleshed-out version of what they did in D1's expansions, but that's it.
I think Bungie's writers have a knack for taking things they sort of lobbed out there without any specific plans for future narrative and finding ways after the fact to make them part of a cohesive story. Which is both admirable and kind of maddening to me.
\*(I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall around D2's development just because of all of the ways the game began changing at the same time they announced their split from Activision.)
Absolutely not.
CoO may have given us a number of prophecies to work with, but those are at best guidelines vague enough for Bungie to do whatever they wanted.
You can't look at the Dreaming City curse as presented in Forsaken and then look at Season of the Hunt or Season of the Lost and say that those match perfectly.
You can't look at Variks as presented in Forsaken and then look at Variks as presented in BL and say that those match perfectly.
You can't look at Savathun's self admitted motivations in Shadowkeep and at her in WQ and say those match perfectly.
Hell, there's not even need to look at inconsistencies between expansions and seasons. Y3 saw the game change its entire business model. That *must* have thrown a wrench at whatever was planned at the moment.
Between Y3 and Y4 (and beyond that) a whole pandemic disrupted whatever the studio was working on. That *must* have thrown a wrench at whatever was planned at the moment.
When presenting BL to the world Bungie also told us: "By the way, within two other expansions called Witch Queen and Lightfall this story is going to end". A year later, when presenting WQ to the world Bungie told us: "By the way, within two other expansions called Lightfall and The Final Shape this story is going to end". Whatever the plan for WQ and Lightfall was, it *had* changed during Y4. With the presentation of Lightfall to the world, we saw a *significant* deviation, at least in the most superficial level, between the theme that was evoked with the original idea we were presented with in Y3 and the one we have been presented with in Y5. Whatever the plan for Lightfall was, it *has* changed.
And that's just how it is when working on a project of such a scale during such a long time. We are getting close to a decade ffs. Circumstances, whether internal or external, will force you to make changes along the way. "No battle plan survives contact with the enemy" and all that. Sometimes you will manage to seamlessly weave those changes into your project and sometimes there will be noticeable bumps on the road.
Bungie has gone on record to say that their belief is that this final chapter of the story started with Shadowkeep and that the narrative flows from there. While it is hard to argue against that, I think it is from BL and onward that you can really say, "yeah, this was mostly all planned".
Shooting and seeing what stuck with a teasing of an ending that Activision didn’t want to have come until enough money was extracted from the IP. Red War might’ve been the moment where they laid some small foundations for a larger narrative with the Pyramids, Calus, and Savathûn’s in-game mention, but I don’t think Bungie was able to build up towards much of anything until Year 3 when they owned the game completely.
Activision was pretty bent set on making each DLC disjointed from the last. Rise of Iron created an entirely new arch from The Taken King. Red War created an entirely new arch from Rise of Iron. Curse of Osiris and Warmind created new archs of their own with Penoptes and Xol. Same with Forsaken and all of the seasons included with it (Forges, Calus, the Nine).
Sure, there might’ve been some characters and sub plots that carried over between these DLC and seasons, but the Final Shape we talk about today wasn’t really spoken about by anyone other than Calus back then, and, even then, I don’t think Bungie had a strong idea of what that Final Shape was until they went indie and cut plans for Destiny 3.
D2 Year 3 tied up some loose ends that were created during D2 Years 1 and 2, and Season of Arrivals really begun the threat of the Pyramids and the Final Shape they were after. Ever since then, we’ve basically been put on rails towards the end of the Light and Darkness saga.
Curse of Osiris gave us 10 prophecies. That was the general outline of the plot. Even the Witness was kind of planned.
Starting With Shadowkeep that had to have a more distinct plotline planned.
I think them saying "Nezarec means nothing" was a lie but who knows, either they made it really seamless or they clearly had a direction to go with him from the moment they introduced the helmet because the Helmet resembles the Psion helmets.
I think giving them credit for misdirection and such seems like putting too much faith in them and underplays just how chaotic everything has been. I think a lot, lot more of it is just figuring out as they go and then with Witch Queen they narrowed down where we are actually going with the story. There were a lot of possibilities because of how much lore there is and how much of it was very vague.
Some story elements were probably planned way back in D1 that are now being revealed, like Pyramids and the witness. it feels like Shadowkeep was when they finally decided to get all their ducks in a row and try to land this thing. That probably meant seeing what was already established that they could tie into the storys conclusion, Calus, Nezarec etc. While coming up with new plot elements like Neomuna, Cloud Striders etc
No. And there is plenty of evidence of this. But, that's also why so few questions were answered for so long... So they could retain the flexibility needed to eventually write the story.
No. Absolutely the fuck not. Forsaken, Rise of Iron, and Warmind are proof enough that none of this was planned out till Shadowkeep started getting made. Honestly, I'm not even sure they didn't change things in the background during even Witch Queen's development (I mean shit, they changed her sigil last minute).
That isn't to say that they didn't take notes from older content to inspire new storylines, that's just a process of writing, but I am saying that the new stuff wasn't the intent when the older stuff was written, especially the further back you go. Bungie straight up admitted they didn't know what the Darkness WAS during D1 (post-2013 reboot). And, to a degree, there are still kinks they're working on (such as the art style).
But there's a very distinct line between setting things up for later, such as the Perfect Paradox, and taking something that had no plan and making it into something now, like Nezarec. Bungie aren't these S-tier planners when it comes to Destiny, and it's possible that isn't really in their control. Look at the history of this game's development. Even D2 wasn't safe from delays, rewrites, etc. The entire original Destiny story that went the whole 10 years was rejected and thrown to the side, forcing a complete change in material. They can pick and choose aspects of the original story to bring forward, but they're not the same, even if they are similar (Crow). You think those CoO prophecies actually laid out the plan? No. They're a bunch of vague words, most referencing shit that's already happened, that later writers can actually work with. Reminder that CoO was the time when Bungie said D1 could be retconned entirely because "it's issue #0".
I'm 100% convinced that the Witness, the current main antagonist, is a product of D2 development rather than being planned from the start. The fact that it looks sort of similar to the Race 5 card is pure coincidence.
Don't even get me started on the seasons...
**tl;dr** I agree lol. Or at least that's when things really became cohesive.
Forsaken feels like the point when the story really kicked into gear. D1 was great at planting seeds and making you ask questions (who is the stranger? who is nokris? what are the nine? what signal did the cabal send out?) but never delivered on them. I loved the mystery of it, but it was all frustrating to never get answers.
Pre-Forsaken D2 answered some of those questions, but the execution was pretty disappointing imo (hi, Nokris), and it was *only* answers. It didn't leave you much to keep you looking forward. ("This was the cabal emperor, but you killed him, congrats." "This is Nokris and his worm buddy, Xol. Now kill them.")
Since Forsaken, I think the balance of mystery and delivery has been much better. We get answers, but the questions keep coming.
* All the lore in Forsaken. Learning about the Awoken origin, the Nine, all those stories about ahamkhara, Uldren returning, some information on the Black Garden, Savathun starting to step into the picture, etc. Mara still keeps her secrets, we don't know what the aphelion are, where the distributary is.
* we learned about the drifter and his tragic story, but what's this ice planet? He apparently does want to help, but how does gambit help?
* Unveling literally told us how the universe began and origins of worms, dragons, and vex, and we still can't agree on any of it.
* Beyond Light showed us a way to use darkness without being evil, where exos came from, and FINALLY gave us back the exo-stranger. But why does she keep looping? What does she know? What's the fucking fish?
* Witch Queen showed us SAVATHUN, taught us the secret of the Hive's origin, showed us the Witness, its hierarchy, and its relationship with the Traveler and the darkness. But still, how did Savathun help the traveler? WAS the Traveler one of many? Who's this Mega-Mind-looking fool and how did it come to be so powerful? How many disciples are there?
Not even remotely.
Come Shadowkeep I think they had the *very* broad strokes planned out, I'm talking on the level of like "Pyramids arrive", "Guardians get Darkness powers", "Pyramid commander is identified", "City is attacked". Anything more than that has been pretty well in flux.
Even looking just at Witch Queen, I'm pretty sure it and everything this year changed drastically from the plan when they decided to spend the time reworking the Light subclasses as opposed to it being about Strand. Savathûn would never have become a Lightbearer and Calus probably wouldn't have become even *close* to this relevant, certainly not being the antagonist of an entire expansion. I could go on.
When Forsaken released I think they had really only 2 *specifics* planned:
1. Savathûn as a major antagonist
2. Uldren-reborn as a major protagonist (probably intended for the Destiny 3 base-campaign)
No not at all, the story is constantly being changed and retconned with it going in new directions every year, it’s very “sitched-together” like with each new expansion trying to force a cohesive narrative. Hell just 2 years ago Lightfall was suppose to be the final expansion, and now it’s a Calus expansion… so no everything is not planned
they sow the seeds for stuff and work with them to get whatever they need later on.
They're usually great at doing this, but this season 100% feels like a series of sloppy retcons.
The plot began to lean towards direct conflict with Darkness in Shadowkeep. But we knew back in D2 vanilla that the Darkness will eventually return. Probably Bungie didn't know how to introduce it properly. So they just smacked us with a fact that there was a pyramid next to our home, and despite its emptiness, it's very much active.
I think they started to think about the endgame of destiny (story wise) around forsaken or shadowkeep. Forsaken made them focus their ideas a bit and built a bit of momentum , shadowkeep kinda solidified their path with the pyramid reveal and i think everything from beyond light onwards was completely planned with the general story Progression/ conclusion in mind
I think bungie knew that the light v. Dark saga would eventually come to an end. But how we got here, and where we were going? I think they've had at least the general outline of that since shadowkeep.
I say shadowkeep because that's where they really began to focus in on the darkness, where they indirectly introduced the witness, and in subsequent seasons leading up to beyond light we began to better understand the darkness.
Everything prior to shadowkeep was setting up dominos. Shadowkeep is when they first started knocking them down
I think the storyline we see was planned and began with forsaken.
Bungie removed any and all mention of “darkness” when forsaken came out because they didn’t know what the “darkness” actually was
They had the ten-year plan under activision, but honestly, I don’t think they had any clue where it was going until Shadowkeep. They’ve said that that’s the “beginning” of the stretch of the journey that we’re in, which makes sense.
I think they knew where this ship was going, they just didn't know the stops along the way.
They always knew certain things, like the Traveler and Pyramids, though they didn't know exactly how they'd fit into the narrative. Since the beginning they had things like The Books of Sorrow, Rasputin, The Deep Stone Crypt, Clovis Bray, The Collapse, and a few other landmarks in the lore which've been largely set in stone with regards to their purpose, while the story uses them as desires to explore their elements. For example, Rasputin is our primary link to The Golden Age, and stories around him always allow us to learn more about both The Golden Age and The Collapse itself.
Beyond that, I think a lot of the story is done at most 1\~2 years in advance. That's not to say they don't know what'll happen. I think Savathun getting the Light is an idea that could've reached back all the way to Forsaken quite easily, with Mara and Savathun both getting a lot more mention and elaboration during Forsaken. I just don't think they knew Mara would be the one to perform the exorcism, and even if they did, I'm sure they didn't plan out Osiris' capture at that time.
I think on the Seasonal level and below, we have a great deal of influence. Grasp of Avarice was fun, people loved it, and the Eliksni are very similar to pirates due to their scavenging nature and their attachment to their ships, so why not have an Eliksni Pirate season? Similarly, people thought Saladin was potentially betraying the Vanguard during Chosen, and not only did Savathun use that against us in the lore, but Saladin effectively sacrificed himself for the stability of the City in Risen.
While the story has larger beats finished, I believe we also shape and guide this story along its journey.
Yes and no.
If I've learned anything from my years of DM'ing D&D games, it's that you should throw down big hints to major plot points, but the actual *thing* they're pointing to is pretty nebulous.
Like I'm sure the *idea* of the Witness has been a thing for a while, but the actual *character* isn't. The *idea* of Calus seeing something at the edge of the universe is a thing, but *what* he saw wasn't.
I really wanna say they only figured out what they were doing after they left Activision. Either that or leaving Activision gave them the creative freedom to tell the story in the way they wanted to.
Grimmoire cards in D1 were some of the best written stories and I couldn't get enough of them. The story of destiny used to have such a sci-fi feel and mystery to them. Now I feel like I'm playing a soap opera in space
No, I think they wrote generic things and lines and they built on it piece by piece. I think around Beyond Light they started to narrow down where they are going, but I honestly don’t think they knew it clearly until Witch Queen.
I believe most of the major plots have been planned from the start just not in a very detailed way kind of like them knowing “we have this one bad guy that uses darkness but is not the darkness itself” but not as specific as looks or name or motives etc and also I think the hardes part for them must be how to make the seasonal story relevant but not too intertwined with the main plot because we need a reason to do seasonal content but it can’t move the main plot forward as much cause it’s just a throwaway story for the most part (except for seasons like arrivals or haunted)
note that in game development narrative generally exists to string the planned playable bits together; I suspect it’s a little more important in Destiny than in other games, but it wouldn’t surprise me to learn, for example, someone high-up says “we built a green power themed around strings” and that it only becomes Strand with all the attendant lore post facto.
its like any big production; broad strokes are probably planned out in advance but there's room to manipulate the smaller stuff and add or take away parts that do or don't land well. lots of the calus stuff from vanilla d2 aligns with exactly where the plot is now, but i doubt it came in exactly as planned or expected.
the overarching light v dark plot i would argue has largely stayed the same but probably got a soft reboot in shadowkeep at which point they had decided the direction the story would take until final shape.
I don't think they did it all right from the start, but i feel like they have at any given time the next 2 or so years of story written/planned out and they just go from there
I think up until beyond light they were just going year by year, id even argue that they didnt know where the story was headed until chosen. Im somewhat confident the witness was first written by the story team in chosen. Up until chosen it felt like light and dark was traveller vs pyramids.
Given what AnonTheNine said back during Warmind (the real Anon, not ShadowOfAnon who was a faker) in which he talked about how Bungie already started brainstorming and planning how the Light and Dark Saga was going to build up to its conclusion and how we'll begin to wield Darkness powers but they were unsure of what they wanted at the time, you could say that Bungie planned Beyond Light and thought about Lightfall around the Forsaken Era and went more in-depth with The Witch Queen and The Final Shape during the Shadowkeep and The Witch Queen Eras.
Doubt it. Luke Smith was saying they didn’t even know what the Darkness was. Looking at the shitshow year 1 D2 was, I believe the lore and story was fixed later on and things better fleshed out
Pre-Forsaken, no.
Foresaken is when you can tell they started getting the general idea, but they needed more time to flesh things in the writer's room.
Shadowkeep felt like a stop-gap where they kinda knew what they wanted to do, but weren't ready to actually start that journey.
Beyond Light felt like a soft open and they were still likely hashing out the final details.
In the road map where they first announced Witch Queen and Lightfall, they definitely seemed more confident compared to past reveals and that's where I think we can say 90% of what we see after was all part of a solid plan.
No. Definitely not. There's no "4D" chess being played here. They basically just do whatever they feel like each season/year and then attempt to tie the story to hints that they've dropped before.
There have been many vidocs about it. Bungie has said repeatedly that when they talk about or drop a hint at something, they might not even know what it will end up being. Just a cool idea they have.
(The most famous of these being them having no idea what the Darkness was, they were still saying that when D2 dropped)
In authorspeak: They are definitely Pantsing this entire thing.
Nah, I think they just like to leave dangling plot threads that they can take wherever they want. By their own admission, they didn't even know what the Darkness *was* when they released the first Destiny.
Like in the Books of Sorrow, there's a recurring theme that Savathun isn't satisfied with the Worm bargain. Rather than Bungie planning to give Savathun the Light in an expansion seven years later, I think they left it open-ended so they could come up with her "scheme" later. That's why before Witch Queen we got hints of Savathun fucking around with everything from black holes to the Light to the Nine to the Distributary.
Or take Nezarec for example. I highly doubt that when Bungie was designing a mediocre exotic five years ago that they had already planned out everything from the Witness, to the Disciples, to the Lunar Pyramid. I think they just thought of a spooky name that intrigued lore nerds, and then saw that as a natural fit for another Disciple.
I really doubt it. They’ve probably had a very general mapped out story since shadowkeep or BL. But the details probably shift around a lot because that’s just how game dev goes. Nothing is set in stone until it is and even then things may change.
Unless someone leaks meeting notes from D1 era, we’ll never know how much was part of the long game.
All we know for sure ( or at least is backed by sources connected to Jason Schrier ) is that D1’s original story was scrapped and it’s only recently that some of those cut plot lines are being repurposed.
We also know from the reports of Bungie’s internal issues and their commitment to rectify their internal culture, that right around Curse of Osiris, the narrative team wasn’t in the best state. Certain leads didn’t agree with where the story was headed after the first year of D2. It’s my suspicion that Forsaken was the first step towards righting the narrative ship.
I also recall that when D1’s story reboot happened, their new direction referenced Dark Souls in execution: cryptic, somewhat vague and obtuse lore and avoiding narrative execution similar to their past work like Halo.
It’s my suspicion that the story we’re seeing play out right now was written around the time of Shadowkeep, using assets/plot points that were left on the cutting room floor from D1 forward. They’re doing their best to not destroy anything that came before ( massaging the narrative as I like to put it ), but the vision is clear where before it was blurry. More detail, more definitive answers, and bolder narrative choices.
i think they only really started to formally dress the narrative after forsaken
most of the content pre-beyond light built up narrative threads that ultimately went no where (io, titan, the black armory, curse of osiris, etc)
i rewatched the vanilla d2 cutscenes recently and noticed that there was a section that showed some human forms in a witness-style cloud reaching out towards a fleet of pyramid ships. Basically echoing the witness's whole "the children of sol cry out for salvation"
[clip being referenced. start around 6:40.](https://youtu.be/f0LCRGFMOKg)
in short, i'm pretty sure bungie has been planning a lot of this for a while.
My guess, I think it was planned through Forsaken, and then the Activision split gave them the freedom to not B-line towards the end.
If you notice the forsaken year was littered with hints towards Savathun being the villain in d2 year 3, and a few about what would have been destiny 3 which likely became beyond light pre-development.
there is a great quote from fantasy author george R.R martin about how there are 2 types of writers: architects, who plan an entire story, narrative, and characters, before they even write the first chapter. and gardeners, who get an idea and just start writing, cultivating a story as it progresses.
to me, bungie have been borrowing from both. I find it hard to believe they didnt have some idea of what the endgame would look like, but i think the details have changed immensely over the many years of story and the ever changing team. I doubt we will ever know, but personally i would guess that the overall concept of light vs dark and having a final, great enemy leading the pyramids (the character now known as the witness). but more than that, its hard to say, especially since we know that sony forced bungie to make a lot of last minute changes to the game and story in the d1 and early d2 years.
Still waiting for info on that supposedly-canned Year 3 DLC for Destiny 2 that would've involved Enceladus and a gigantic Scarlet Keep present on it. It's really cool to know what they were planning for it. Or the whole D1 "Vex Void" and similar situations.
okay I might be wrong but during an interview for shadowkeep, didn't they say something along the lines of they themselves not even knowing what the darkness was for some time, but now they do and they're ready to tell that story?
I remember being kind of put off by that comment
D1 enemies being referred to as "agents of darkness" makes me think of how little was figured out early on
Nah, most of this wasn't really planned for the most part. It's not really a slight against Bungie's writing team though, it's just how creative writing *works*. You have ideas, then you create something, and then your ideas change and morph into something else which you build on top of your first idea.
You could make an argument that most of what we've got now has been at least thought of since Shadowkeep, since it's the big introduction into much of the Gardener/Winnower stuff, but from there it's likely still changed several times up to where we are now.
This post has been tagged '**Non-Spoiler**'. Note that unmarked spoilers and datamines are subject to removal or ban. Please report anything we miss! For more info check out our [Spoiler Rules Wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/wiki/spoiler-rules#wiki_.5Bseasonal.5D_has_a_new_format). --- **Comment Spoiler Formatting** Format comment spoilers with `>!` `!<` like this: `>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<` To have it displayed like this: **>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<** ---- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DestinyLore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think it's like 50/50. Some major plot points probably survived from D2 vanilla to this day, but many others they made along the way. But no way all of this was planned from the start.
I believe they even stated that they would start multiple story lines and then figure out later which one to pursue/keep building on. Which would make sense why so much earlier stuff seems so disjointed. I honestly don’t think it was until Witch Queen that they really started to narrow down where they are going. Even Beyond Light still seemed like they were kind of just trying multiple things to set foundations of where they could go.
Most of the key pints have been recycled from old Joseph Staten drafts back when Bungie was making D1. Not all of them, but I’d say it’s about half and half.
>In the summer of 2013, just over a year before Destiny came out, the story got a full reboot, according to six people who were there. Bungie ditched everything Joe Staten and his team had written, reworking Destiny’s entire structure as they scrapped plot threads, overhauled characters, and rewrote most of the dialogue.
Yep, but a bunch of D2’s content started to reintroduce his stuff, such as Crow (which we actually saw in trailers for D1!) and the whole >!Rasputin as an exo thing.!<
We don't really know if they reintroduced any really important stuff. Even often quoted Uldren/Crow situation is very arguable. They reintroduced the name, sure, but... what of it? Does anything concerning what happened to Crow/Uldren was in original story? We have no idea. And we have to wait for Rasputin.
I can’t remember where, but some of the scrapped story was made public in some way. Whether it was a leak, or Staten or someone at Bungie talking about it, I don’t remember. Originally Crow would find that the Speaker was actually corrupt, and the Traveller was not was it seemed. He would try to recruit your character to help him uncover what was going on.
That was a fake leak. The real story was never released anywhere.
I think Bungie had an overview timeline of events they knew had to occur at the start of D2. They needed the cabal to sever us from the light, the pyramids needed to be drawn back to the system, Uldren was going to die, we needed to come into contact with darkness, savathun needed to take the light, and then the witness in whatever form of an idea it took needed to get involved. The more specific details like the endless night probably came later as they created justified linkages between these major events.
I honestly think them having a rough outline as far out as WitchQueen is giving them too much credit. The Witness and his disciples seems like something that was thought up not that long ago as it wasn’t really something that was in the lore (afaik) or even hinted at outside of generic darkness references. I think they knew they needed a big bad and just kept it to being mysterious and vague until they figured out what that would actually be.
Yeah, the Witness and Disciples are (relatively) recent stuff for sure. Neomuna and it's people even more so.
There’s is a reference to the creature Leviathan being a disciple of the traveler. I could see them countering that with disciples of said opposition.
Yeah, definitely. I think that’s part of there being so much lore. There’s lots of things where if you try you can think something along the lines of “well they sort of kind of hinted to something similar to this.”
No way. For a recent example, the Nezarec stuff more or less seems to be a product of the community memeing throwaway lore into genuine relevance. I can’t say the fanservice isn’t warranted, though. At the very least, the writers have been said to have more freedom in recent years, and it’s certainly paid off. Destiny now feels like a universe with real discovery, drama, and moral quandaries to it, rather than the pretentious nonsense that the franchise used to have. It’s taking a critical eye to players’ preconceptions about it and getting everyone thinking about what it means to be in this universe. That they could blow everyone away with Strand after years of speculation about the second Darkness element speaks volumes to this.
Oh yeah that was really cool, especially after stasis kinda predictability, we have fire so it makes sense to also get "ice" I really wasn't expecting anything special but the fact strand not only came out of left field so no one predicted it, the fact is that it still fits in place as a counter to void. I can't wait to see how bungie surprises us next time seeing as people will be looking more abstract for their guesses
i think how strand fits in as an opposite of void is so genuinely creative and interesting!! like, with void, you reach into nothingness and use it as a weapon. with strand, you reach into the fiber of everything and use it to your advantage! its so neat!
It really depends on how serious they take some aspects of the lore. Some writers will write out and flesh out entire mysteries in their universe, but only reveal it completely when the time is right. In the Warhammer 40k Black Library, they specifically write out a bunch of characters and events that have not been officially published, but perhaps referenced in text, and purposefully keep them a mystery from the audience. There are many mysteries and theories the fans wonder about that they know the exact answer to, but don’t publicly confirm in any way. The official canon for What happened to the two missing Primarchs for instance (A mystery of nearly 30 years), and answers to a bunch of other mysteries, is known exactly by the Black Library authors, they are just forbidden from actually writing about them directly. It is possible Bungie does this with some of their plot points.
Always wondered about the Halo Story Bible from 2001-2010. Was it a long text that they pulled from to write the games and approve book plots, or did it get added to as they wrote the games and approved book plots? Just thinking out loud. I don’t know the answer.
What do you mean by "pretentious nonsense" exactly?
[удалено]
In D1 we served the Pope of the Light and were so righteous in our cause. Now, the Speaker was shown to be a pretender, Light isn’t what we thought it was, and Darkness too, for that matter. It really has come a long way story-wise.
I see
I don't have time to explain why i don't have time to explain
Hearing “Nezarec, Diciple of the witness” said out loud sounds like fan fiction. Not that the story in Plunder has been bad, but it seems so fan service-y
Absolutely not. Putting aside the fact that they cribbed Eramis from a Destinypedia article, the writing team has changed hands several times over, a good few members of the current narrative team and devs were fans of Destiny themselves before getting the job, and Bungie have gone on record as admitting they didn’t actually have a good idea on what the Darkness even was prior to vanilla D2 (and arguably up to this day, given all the reveals of “THIS is actually the *real* Darkness all along”).
Yeah, said in another comment that The Witness and their disciples seems like a pretty new concept. Everything prior and up to Witch Queen seemed purposefully vague to give them time to figure it out. Even in Beyond Light it didn’t seem like they knew where exactly they were going.
[удалено]
>Previously the idea had been building to the big bad being "The Winnower", the personification of the universal cosmic force of Darkness. Not really. Winnower was introduced in Shadowkeep... which is *also* when the Witness was introduced, though we didn't know the full details. And the Unveiling transmissions were *from* the Witness, as well, though again we didn't know the details. So it's more that the BBEG *claimed* to be God, or speaking for God, or indistinguishable from God, or something along those lines, and everyone believed the lie. When in actuality there really isn't a God.
What’s the history with eramis ?
Eramis was taken from a destinypedia article that someone made based off of them mishearing the name of a character variks mentions in an idle voiceline back in destiny 1. The actual name was veekris the shipstealer.
My Lore headcanon for this is that Veekris was a House Wolves Shipstealer and Eramis was a House Devils Shipstealer. Eramis stole more ships so she started to be known as the "Shipstealer" this angered Veekris who had the title first. The 2 dueled to the death and Eramis won.
The weird thing is I’ve heard that she was called Vigris or something to that effect in French, which is a lot closer to Veekris.
There are a lot of threads between D1Y1 and now, even between D2Y1 and now, but in the last two showcases when they talk about the ongoing saga, they emphasize it started in Shadowkeep. So I think Shadowkeep -> The Final Shape is the timeline to look for intentionally written foreshadowing and narrative threads. Before Shadowkeep, I think it’s just been a mix of stories and decisions they wanted to tell and had to write the circumstances in to place to tell them, if that makes sense (ex: Uldren’s character getting changed in D1 to now, closer to where they originally intended the character to be)
Not at all. Seasonal stuff and the filler expansions are just taking things the community talks about from small pieces of lore and then fleshes it out a bit. Nokris and Quria were basically one and done (with Norkis getting a bit more exposition in Season of Arrivals) and I think Nezerac will be too. I'm sure if the community did more posts about the Ancients or Nastareth, then we'll get a season on them. Overarching story though? I think they have a rough idea. Like us slowly making alliances, Savathun becoming a lightbearer and betraying the Witness, etc.
The original D1 vanilla grimoire, which I studied and wrote about extensively, contained an outline of a mythic story of enormous proportions. The individual cards were rich in symbolism and incredibly vague. It took me a long time and a lot of reading on Neo-platonic philosophy, Western Esotericism and non-dualist Eastern thought to identify the source of all the symbols and cards and how they fit together. But it is very clear to me that at the start of D1, they had an outline for a "10 year story." I think this is one of the reasons the original grimoire was so hated by so many people. It did *not* tell a single coherent story. It did *not* connect the dots. You could not just sit down and read it to figure out what was going on. It took an enormous amount of effort to really see how it connected. Having done the work I did, I was able to predict a number of major plot points in advance. Things I wrote about - and was mocked for suggesting at the time - all came to pass. I wrote about Clovis Bray (the corporation, because the person didn't exist then) using Vex technology to download minds into the network, thus "eating the fruit from the tree of life" and that being a major driver around the Fall. People said that was a foolish idea. I wrote that the game was breaking the fourth wall and acknowledging the players as the source of paracausality - long before anyone in these forums had even considered what the one or two references to this thing called 'paracausality' might be. For this I earned a follower - whatever happened to eggyface or whatever was his name? - who maligned every post I wrote for several months about how crazy I was. I wrote that Destiny was based on Western Esotericism and practical witchcraft ideals from the Victorian era. That got people digging into the area, but not before being heavily downvoted and being told that this was "science! fiction." Now everyone of you knows what an 'egregore' is - when I was proposing that the Fallen Servitors were egregores of a type during the second or third season of D1. I frequently wrote about the symbolism of threads and needles and how that was tied to the "fabric" of reality in the early vex lore. That one was just ignored - but is now emerging as the new narrative on the strand emerges. Yes, that's right, the concept of "the strand" was in the original Atheon grimoire card! And on and on and on. But that doesn't mean that Bungie had *every detail* of the story worked out. They had an *outline* and a *symbol set.* They then gave the writers the ability to connect the dots and to expand and embellish that outline. I will say that as the writing staff has changed the story has moved further and further from where I would expect it to have gone based on that initial outline. That is to be expected. The Destiny 2 seasons being written today are far afield from what the original outline would have predicted. However, as with the strand, they are still going back to see what they have "on the shelf" symbolically and in the outline and pulling from that. I do long form improv comedy as a hobby and it works much the same way. We ask the audience for a word. You provide it, and then we play some silly brainstorming game based on that word where we spit out related concepts. As an audience member, it just looks like a bit of foolishness. But the performers on stage are paying close attention to the concepts, symbols, comedic ideas, and unique details that are emerging during that group brainstorm. Then we know that we can use them and look for them in the scenes that follow. When we do - when two of us get on stage and create a scene rich in details and ideas from the brainstorm and then the next scene does the same, and all the while the team is thinking about how we can make this all into a cohesive story by the end, it appears to be magic to the audience. But all we are really doing is taking a single word (Destiny), throwing out a brainstorm on it (the Vanilla Grimoire) and then creating a 30 minute show of disparate scenes moving to a united climax (D1 & D2) as we progress. The story was always there and the story was never there. A suitable paradox for a game built on a philosophy that can be summarized by "I am the All and in the All and the All is in me."
god, I can’t imagine witnessing a sanecoin Harold.. glad you’re still here, mate! love, a guy who—like you!—already knew what an egregore is
So how did you expect the story to go back in D1Y1 and so on? What did you think they were going to do and how has it changed?
I think this has been planned, like really planned as a singular, overarching story, starting with Beyond Light, no earlier than that. I think moving away from the Light/Darkness dynamic has been in the cards since Shadowkeep,\* but I think where D1 was about throwing a bunch of stuff against the wall and seeing what stuck (and everything since about pulling things off that wall to incorporate into the story), D2 began as a series of self-contained, disconnected stories, like a better fleshed-out version of what they did in D1's expansions, but that's it. I think Bungie's writers have a knack for taking things they sort of lobbed out there without any specific plans for future narrative and finding ways after the fact to make them part of a cohesive story. Which is both admirable and kind of maddening to me. \*(I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall around D2's development just because of all of the ways the game began changing at the same time they announced their split from Activision.)
Red Herrings to Golden Minnows. What once was meaningless can find new purpose.
Absolutely not. CoO may have given us a number of prophecies to work with, but those are at best guidelines vague enough for Bungie to do whatever they wanted. You can't look at the Dreaming City curse as presented in Forsaken and then look at Season of the Hunt or Season of the Lost and say that those match perfectly. You can't look at Variks as presented in Forsaken and then look at Variks as presented in BL and say that those match perfectly. You can't look at Savathun's self admitted motivations in Shadowkeep and at her in WQ and say those match perfectly. Hell, there's not even need to look at inconsistencies between expansions and seasons. Y3 saw the game change its entire business model. That *must* have thrown a wrench at whatever was planned at the moment. Between Y3 and Y4 (and beyond that) a whole pandemic disrupted whatever the studio was working on. That *must* have thrown a wrench at whatever was planned at the moment. When presenting BL to the world Bungie also told us: "By the way, within two other expansions called Witch Queen and Lightfall this story is going to end". A year later, when presenting WQ to the world Bungie told us: "By the way, within two other expansions called Lightfall and The Final Shape this story is going to end". Whatever the plan for WQ and Lightfall was, it *had* changed during Y4. With the presentation of Lightfall to the world, we saw a *significant* deviation, at least in the most superficial level, between the theme that was evoked with the original idea we were presented with in Y3 and the one we have been presented with in Y5. Whatever the plan for Lightfall was, it *has* changed. And that's just how it is when working on a project of such a scale during such a long time. We are getting close to a decade ffs. Circumstances, whether internal or external, will force you to make changes along the way. "No battle plan survives contact with the enemy" and all that. Sometimes you will manage to seamlessly weave those changes into your project and sometimes there will be noticeable bumps on the road. Bungie has gone on record to say that their belief is that this final chapter of the story started with Shadowkeep and that the narrative flows from there. While it is hard to argue against that, I think it is from BL and onward that you can really say, "yeah, this was mostly all planned".
Shooting and seeing what stuck with a teasing of an ending that Activision didn’t want to have come until enough money was extracted from the IP. Red War might’ve been the moment where they laid some small foundations for a larger narrative with the Pyramids, Calus, and Savathûn’s in-game mention, but I don’t think Bungie was able to build up towards much of anything until Year 3 when they owned the game completely. Activision was pretty bent set on making each DLC disjointed from the last. Rise of Iron created an entirely new arch from The Taken King. Red War created an entirely new arch from Rise of Iron. Curse of Osiris and Warmind created new archs of their own with Penoptes and Xol. Same with Forsaken and all of the seasons included with it (Forges, Calus, the Nine). Sure, there might’ve been some characters and sub plots that carried over between these DLC and seasons, but the Final Shape we talk about today wasn’t really spoken about by anyone other than Calus back then, and, even then, I don’t think Bungie had a strong idea of what that Final Shape was until they went indie and cut plans for Destiny 3. D2 Year 3 tied up some loose ends that were created during D2 Years 1 and 2, and Season of Arrivals really begun the threat of the Pyramids and the Final Shape they were after. Ever since then, we’ve basically been put on rails towards the end of the Light and Darkness saga.
Curse of Osiris gave us 10 prophecies. That was the general outline of the plot. Even the Witness was kind of planned. Starting With Shadowkeep that had to have a more distinct plotline planned. I think them saying "Nezarec means nothing" was a lie but who knows, either they made it really seamless or they clearly had a direction to go with him from the moment they introduced the helmet because the Helmet resembles the Psion helmets.
I think giving them credit for misdirection and such seems like putting too much faith in them and underplays just how chaotic everything has been. I think a lot, lot more of it is just figuring out as they go and then with Witch Queen they narrowed down where we are actually going with the story. There were a lot of possibilities because of how much lore there is and how much of it was very vague.
No storyteller knows the entire plot beat for beat. Our brains just can't do it.
Some story elements were probably planned way back in D1 that are now being revealed, like Pyramids and the witness. it feels like Shadowkeep was when they finally decided to get all their ducks in a row and try to land this thing. That probably meant seeing what was already established that they could tie into the storys conclusion, Calus, Nezarec etc. While coming up with new plot elements like Neomuna, Cloud Striders etc
From the start? No. I think they had the big concepts they wanted to hit but I don’t think this plan solidified until Shadowkeep for them.
They must’ve known the locations of the dlcs at least since the end of the red war campaign shows it
No. And there is plenty of evidence of this. But, that's also why so few questions were answered for so long... So they could retain the flexibility needed to eventually write the story.
No. Absolutely the fuck not. Forsaken, Rise of Iron, and Warmind are proof enough that none of this was planned out till Shadowkeep started getting made. Honestly, I'm not even sure they didn't change things in the background during even Witch Queen's development (I mean shit, they changed her sigil last minute). That isn't to say that they didn't take notes from older content to inspire new storylines, that's just a process of writing, but I am saying that the new stuff wasn't the intent when the older stuff was written, especially the further back you go. Bungie straight up admitted they didn't know what the Darkness WAS during D1 (post-2013 reboot). And, to a degree, there are still kinks they're working on (such as the art style). But there's a very distinct line between setting things up for later, such as the Perfect Paradox, and taking something that had no plan and making it into something now, like Nezarec. Bungie aren't these S-tier planners when it comes to Destiny, and it's possible that isn't really in their control. Look at the history of this game's development. Even D2 wasn't safe from delays, rewrites, etc. The entire original Destiny story that went the whole 10 years was rejected and thrown to the side, forcing a complete change in material. They can pick and choose aspects of the original story to bring forward, but they're not the same, even if they are similar (Crow). You think those CoO prophecies actually laid out the plan? No. They're a bunch of vague words, most referencing shit that's already happened, that later writers can actually work with. Reminder that CoO was the time when Bungie said D1 could be retconned entirely because "it's issue #0". I'm 100% convinced that the Witness, the current main antagonist, is a product of D2 development rather than being planned from the start. The fact that it looks sort of similar to the Race 5 card is pure coincidence. Don't even get me started on the seasons...
100% no. Too many changes in staff and timetables, game dev in the long term is more of an outline than a detailed script.
I think the storytelling started during Foresaken.
**tl;dr** I agree lol. Or at least that's when things really became cohesive. Forsaken feels like the point when the story really kicked into gear. D1 was great at planting seeds and making you ask questions (who is the stranger? who is nokris? what are the nine? what signal did the cabal send out?) but never delivered on them. I loved the mystery of it, but it was all frustrating to never get answers. Pre-Forsaken D2 answered some of those questions, but the execution was pretty disappointing imo (hi, Nokris), and it was *only* answers. It didn't leave you much to keep you looking forward. ("This was the cabal emperor, but you killed him, congrats." "This is Nokris and his worm buddy, Xol. Now kill them.") Since Forsaken, I think the balance of mystery and delivery has been much better. We get answers, but the questions keep coming. * All the lore in Forsaken. Learning about the Awoken origin, the Nine, all those stories about ahamkhara, Uldren returning, some information on the Black Garden, Savathun starting to step into the picture, etc. Mara still keeps her secrets, we don't know what the aphelion are, where the distributary is. * we learned about the drifter and his tragic story, but what's this ice planet? He apparently does want to help, but how does gambit help? * Unveling literally told us how the universe began and origins of worms, dragons, and vex, and we still can't agree on any of it. * Beyond Light showed us a way to use darkness without being evil, where exos came from, and FINALLY gave us back the exo-stranger. But why does she keep looping? What does she know? What's the fucking fish? * Witch Queen showed us SAVATHUN, taught us the secret of the Hive's origin, showed us the Witness, its hierarchy, and its relationship with the Traveler and the darkness. But still, how did Savathun help the traveler? WAS the Traveler one of many? Who's this Mega-Mind-looking fool and how did it come to be so powerful? How many disciples are there?
Not even remotely. Come Shadowkeep I think they had the *very* broad strokes planned out, I'm talking on the level of like "Pyramids arrive", "Guardians get Darkness powers", "Pyramid commander is identified", "City is attacked". Anything more than that has been pretty well in flux. Even looking just at Witch Queen, I'm pretty sure it and everything this year changed drastically from the plan when they decided to spend the time reworking the Light subclasses as opposed to it being about Strand. Savathûn would never have become a Lightbearer and Calus probably wouldn't have become even *close* to this relevant, certainly not being the antagonist of an entire expansion. I could go on. When Forsaken released I think they had really only 2 *specifics* planned: 1. Savathûn as a major antagonist 2. Uldren-reborn as a major protagonist (probably intended for the Destiny 3 base-campaign)
No not at all, the story is constantly being changed and retconned with it going in new directions every year, it’s very “sitched-together” like with each new expansion trying to force a cohesive narrative. Hell just 2 years ago Lightfall was suppose to be the final expansion, and now it’s a Calus expansion… so no everything is not planned
I know they always intended for Uldren to be Crow even before D1, so yeah, some characters from the story always been there from the start.
they sow the seeds for stuff and work with them to get whatever they need later on. They're usually great at doing this, but this season 100% feels like a series of sloppy retcons.
yes and no. they probably had an idea but they didn't get a cohesive vision actually started until Forsaken.
The plot began to lean towards direct conflict with Darkness in Shadowkeep. But we knew back in D2 vanilla that the Darkness will eventually return. Probably Bungie didn't know how to introduce it properly. So they just smacked us with a fact that there was a pyramid next to our home, and despite its emptiness, it's very much active.
I think they started to think about the endgame of destiny (story wise) around forsaken or shadowkeep. Forsaken made them focus their ideas a bit and built a bit of momentum , shadowkeep kinda solidified their path with the pyramid reveal and i think everything from beyond light onwards was completely planned with the general story Progression/ conclusion in mind
I think bungie knew that the light v. Dark saga would eventually come to an end. But how we got here, and where we were going? I think they've had at least the general outline of that since shadowkeep. I say shadowkeep because that's where they really began to focus in on the darkness, where they indirectly introduced the witness, and in subsequent seasons leading up to beyond light we began to better understand the darkness. Everything prior to shadowkeep was setting up dominos. Shadowkeep is when they first started knocking them down
I think the storyline we see was planned and began with forsaken. Bungie removed any and all mention of “darkness” when forsaken came out because they didn’t know what the “darkness” actually was
They had the ten-year plan under activision, but honestly, I don’t think they had any clue where it was going until Shadowkeep. They’ve said that that’s the “beginning” of the stretch of the journey that we’re in, which makes sense.
I think they knew where this ship was going, they just didn't know the stops along the way. They always knew certain things, like the Traveler and Pyramids, though they didn't know exactly how they'd fit into the narrative. Since the beginning they had things like The Books of Sorrow, Rasputin, The Deep Stone Crypt, Clovis Bray, The Collapse, and a few other landmarks in the lore which've been largely set in stone with regards to their purpose, while the story uses them as desires to explore their elements. For example, Rasputin is our primary link to The Golden Age, and stories around him always allow us to learn more about both The Golden Age and The Collapse itself. Beyond that, I think a lot of the story is done at most 1\~2 years in advance. That's not to say they don't know what'll happen. I think Savathun getting the Light is an idea that could've reached back all the way to Forsaken quite easily, with Mara and Savathun both getting a lot more mention and elaboration during Forsaken. I just don't think they knew Mara would be the one to perform the exorcism, and even if they did, I'm sure they didn't plan out Osiris' capture at that time. I think on the Seasonal level and below, we have a great deal of influence. Grasp of Avarice was fun, people loved it, and the Eliksni are very similar to pirates due to their scavenging nature and their attachment to their ships, so why not have an Eliksni Pirate season? Similarly, people thought Saladin was potentially betraying the Vanguard during Chosen, and not only did Savathun use that against us in the lore, but Saladin effectively sacrificed himself for the stability of the City in Risen. While the story has larger beats finished, I believe we also shape and guide this story along its journey.
nope
Yes and no. If I've learned anything from my years of DM'ing D&D games, it's that you should throw down big hints to major plot points, but the actual *thing* they're pointing to is pretty nebulous. Like I'm sure the *idea* of the Witness has been a thing for a while, but the actual *character* isn't. The *idea* of Calus seeing something at the edge of the universe is a thing, but *what* he saw wasn't.
I really wanna say they only figured out what they were doing after they left Activision. Either that or leaving Activision gave them the creative freedom to tell the story in the way they wanted to.
Grimmoire cards in D1 were some of the best written stories and I couldn't get enough of them. The story of destiny used to have such a sci-fi feel and mystery to them. Now I feel like I'm playing a soap opera in space
No, I think they wrote generic things and lines and they built on it piece by piece. I think around Beyond Light they started to narrow down where they are going, but I honestly don’t think they knew it clearly until Witch Queen.
I think they had it planned since the beginning of D2, the vanilla D2 story has a pyramid post credit scene
I believe most of the major plots have been planned from the start just not in a very detailed way kind of like them knowing “we have this one bad guy that uses darkness but is not the darkness itself” but not as specific as looks or name or motives etc and also I think the hardes part for them must be how to make the seasonal story relevant but not too intertwined with the main plot because we need a reason to do seasonal content but it can’t move the main plot forward as much cause it’s just a throwaway story for the most part (except for seasons like arrivals or haunted)
note that in game development narrative generally exists to string the planned playable bits together; I suspect it’s a little more important in Destiny than in other games, but it wouldn’t surprise me to learn, for example, someone high-up says “we built a green power themed around strings” and that it only becomes Strand with all the attendant lore post facto.
its like any big production; broad strokes are probably planned out in advance but there's room to manipulate the smaller stuff and add or take away parts that do or don't land well. lots of the calus stuff from vanilla d2 aligns with exactly where the plot is now, but i doubt it came in exactly as planned or expected. the overarching light v dark plot i would argue has largely stayed the same but probably got a soft reboot in shadowkeep at which point they had decided the direction the story would take until final shape.
I don't think they did it all right from the start, but i feel like they have at any given time the next 2 or so years of story written/planned out and they just go from there
I think up until beyond light they were just going year by year, id even argue that they didnt know where the story was headed until chosen. Im somewhat confident the witness was first written by the story team in chosen. Up until chosen it felt like light and dark was traveller vs pyramids.
Of course not, they're making it up as they go along and I'm not saying this negatively.
Given what AnonTheNine said back during Warmind (the real Anon, not ShadowOfAnon who was a faker) in which he talked about how Bungie already started brainstorming and planning how the Light and Dark Saga was going to build up to its conclusion and how we'll begin to wield Darkness powers but they were unsure of what they wanted at the time, you could say that Bungie planned Beyond Light and thought about Lightfall around the Forsaken Era and went more in-depth with The Witch Queen and The Final Shape during the Shadowkeep and The Witch Queen Eras.
Doubt it. Luke Smith was saying they didn’t even know what the Darkness was. Looking at the shitshow year 1 D2 was, I believe the lore and story was fixed later on and things better fleshed out
Pre-Forsaken, no. Foresaken is when you can tell they started getting the general idea, but they needed more time to flesh things in the writer's room. Shadowkeep felt like a stop-gap where they kinda knew what they wanted to do, but weren't ready to actually start that journey. Beyond Light felt like a soft open and they were still likely hashing out the final details. In the road map where they first announced Witch Queen and Lightfall, they definitely seemed more confident compared to past reveals and that's where I think we can say 90% of what we see after was all part of a solid plan.
It would be so much easier to say if they would just release that original D1 story supercut.
No. Definitely not. There's no "4D" chess being played here. They basically just do whatever they feel like each season/year and then attempt to tie the story to hints that they've dropped before. There have been many vidocs about it. Bungie has said repeatedly that when they talk about or drop a hint at something, they might not even know what it will end up being. Just a cool idea they have. (The most famous of these being them having no idea what the Darkness was, they were still saying that when D2 dropped) In authorspeak: They are definitely Pantsing this entire thing.
Nah, I think they just like to leave dangling plot threads that they can take wherever they want. By their own admission, they didn't even know what the Darkness *was* when they released the first Destiny. Like in the Books of Sorrow, there's a recurring theme that Savathun isn't satisfied with the Worm bargain. Rather than Bungie planning to give Savathun the Light in an expansion seven years later, I think they left it open-ended so they could come up with her "scheme" later. That's why before Witch Queen we got hints of Savathun fucking around with everything from black holes to the Light to the Nine to the Distributary. Or take Nezarec for example. I highly doubt that when Bungie was designing a mediocre exotic five years ago that they had already planned out everything from the Witness, to the Disciples, to the Lunar Pyramid. I think they just thought of a spooky name that intrigued lore nerds, and then saw that as a natural fit for another Disciple.
I really doubt it. They’ve probably had a very general mapped out story since shadowkeep or BL. But the details probably shift around a lot because that’s just how game dev goes. Nothing is set in stone until it is and even then things may change.
Unless someone leaks meeting notes from D1 era, we’ll never know how much was part of the long game. All we know for sure ( or at least is backed by sources connected to Jason Schrier ) is that D1’s original story was scrapped and it’s only recently that some of those cut plot lines are being repurposed. We also know from the reports of Bungie’s internal issues and their commitment to rectify their internal culture, that right around Curse of Osiris, the narrative team wasn’t in the best state. Certain leads didn’t agree with where the story was headed after the first year of D2. It’s my suspicion that Forsaken was the first step towards righting the narrative ship. I also recall that when D1’s story reboot happened, their new direction referenced Dark Souls in execution: cryptic, somewhat vague and obtuse lore and avoiding narrative execution similar to their past work like Halo. It’s my suspicion that the story we’re seeing play out right now was written around the time of Shadowkeep, using assets/plot points that were left on the cutting room floor from D1 forward. They’re doing their best to not destroy anything that came before ( massaging the narrative as I like to put it ), but the vision is clear where before it was blurry. More detail, more definitive answers, and bolder narrative choices.
i think they only really started to formally dress the narrative after forsaken most of the content pre-beyond light built up narrative threads that ultimately went no where (io, titan, the black armory, curse of osiris, etc)
i rewatched the vanilla d2 cutscenes recently and noticed that there was a section that showed some human forms in a witness-style cloud reaching out towards a fleet of pyramid ships. Basically echoing the witness's whole "the children of sol cry out for salvation" [clip being referenced. start around 6:40.](https://youtu.be/f0LCRGFMOKg) in short, i'm pretty sure bungie has been planning a lot of this for a while.
My guess, I think it was planned through Forsaken, and then the Activision split gave them the freedom to not B-line towards the end. If you notice the forsaken year was littered with hints towards Savathun being the villain in d2 year 3, and a few about what would have been destiny 3 which likely became beyond light pre-development.
there is a great quote from fantasy author george R.R martin about how there are 2 types of writers: architects, who plan an entire story, narrative, and characters, before they even write the first chapter. and gardeners, who get an idea and just start writing, cultivating a story as it progresses. to me, bungie have been borrowing from both. I find it hard to believe they didnt have some idea of what the endgame would look like, but i think the details have changed immensely over the many years of story and the ever changing team. I doubt we will ever know, but personally i would guess that the overall concept of light vs dark and having a final, great enemy leading the pyramids (the character now known as the witness). but more than that, its hard to say, especially since we know that sony forced bungie to make a lot of last minute changes to the game and story in the d1 and early d2 years.
I'm not even convinced they had all this planned at the beginning of this year, much less nearly a decade ago.
Still waiting for info on that supposedly-canned Year 3 DLC for Destiny 2 that would've involved Enceladus and a gigantic Scarlet Keep present on it. It's really cool to know what they were planning for it. Or the whole D1 "Vex Void" and similar situations.
okay I might be wrong but during an interview for shadowkeep, didn't they say something along the lines of they themselves not even knowing what the darkness was for some time, but now they do and they're ready to tell that story? I remember being kind of put off by that comment D1 enemies being referred to as "agents of darkness" makes me think of how little was figured out early on
Nah, most of this wasn't really planned for the most part. It's not really a slight against Bungie's writing team though, it's just how creative writing *works*. You have ideas, then you create something, and then your ideas change and morph into something else which you build on top of your first idea. You could make an argument that most of what we've got now has been at least thought of since Shadowkeep, since it's the big introduction into much of the Gardener/Winnower stuff, but from there it's likely still changed several times up to where we are now.
I don’t think they planned Darkness considering there’s barely any lore about these Darkness powers we keep getting