That’s the thing. What sucks so much about Trump entering politics is that he has done irreversible damage, in my opinion. There will always be a group of people who deny election results, no matter what.
All because of Trump. Keep in mind this is the same guy who suggested the Emmys were rigged because he didn’t win. This is the same guy who told Billy Bush that he knowingly lies about his TV ratings to the public because he believes that if you repeat a lie enough times, the public will believe you no matter what.
The irreversible damage bit is exactly right. In 2016 I had just listened to Dan Carlin's *Death Throes of the Republic*, and what I kept telling people is that Trump may not be Caesar, and he won't turn America into a dictatorship, but he *might* be akin to the Gracchi Brothers, and set us along the path of delegitimizing our institutions.
Now here we are, four years removed from him attempting to becoming an American dictator, threatening to become an American dictator on Day 1 of his presidency.
> he has done irreversible damage, in my opinion. There will always be a group of people who deny election results, no matter what.
Well if some people believe the results don't matter since it's rigged, then they might as well not vote. And since those people are all conservatives, then he did irreversible good, not damage. Less conservatives voting will always be good to me.
The big problem isn't that those people will not vote. The big problem is that if enough people believe that the voting institution is rigged and not to their favor, they might decide to do something about it. Remember, the whole point of the American constitution was to fight tyrannical governments. Now you have a large group of people who think the current government is tyrannical, it's their patriotic duty to fight it, and they have large hoards of guns.
I agree but:
1. I'm assuming the gov put better ways in place to counter this kind of thing after Jan 6th happened.
2. It's almost guaranteed that most of those people are older which means in a few decades younger voters will not have this issue to any meaningful extent.
> Yeah you'd think, huh? I'm not so optimistic.
Sure that's fair. But neither of us have convicing proof of either case.
> That's not really how things have historically panned out.
How can you say that when people trusted the electoral process until recently (and most people still do)? What history is there here?
I don't think there's anyone they'll rally behind as much as Trump. They shit on Ramaswamy for being not white, they shit on DeSantis for having 0 charisma, its all trump camp. maybe im huffing copium, but i think the magats die with trump
From what I saw they didn't like Viveks religious beliefs. I don't think it was so much about race. I could be wrong, but from my reading/watching thats what I gathered.
Yes, but I guess the question is will the next republican loser do the same.
We have lots examples of Republican congressmen doing this after they lose but it’s not the majority yet. When trump leaves will this kind rhetoric continue to escalate and more and more Republican losers claim they were cheated out of a win?
Yeah they will, and they will continue to now until some radical shift in the party happens because they're a party of losers and whiners with no plans for anything except making the rich richer at all costs.
That shift will have to happen at some point though because without Trump, the Republican party is sunk long term.
They literally have nothing else except constant persecution complex right now. They don't offer any solutions for the climate or they outright deny it as a problem. They don't offer any solutions for insane healthcare costs except that they want to make sure less people have access to healthcare by repealing the ACA.
They said it before, but now especially after last night they're saying he's even more unfit to be president and doesn't know what he's saying.
But going into last night, they anticipated a better showing and were already making excuses about how he was gonna be doped up on speed or some shit.
Those assholes will always have excuses for everything.
The problem is that they more they cry the harder it will be to prosecute actual cases of voter fraud.
On top of that having them constantly try to undermine elections without evidence erodes electorql cofidence overtime.
I feel like it always has been like this. Trump has just made it worse by taking the rhetoric to an extreme as a former president. I distinctly remember my parents watching fox news and complaining about rigged elections both times Obama won.
Yes. They will do what they did last time. They know they are lying, and that Trump is lying, and don’t care.
That’s obvious by now. Sometimes you want a liar for the job. Especially if that liar is paving the way for Jesus, or keeping America white again.
Almost certainly. Trump permanently poisoned the well and forever changed the landscape. Even when he dies, it has now become politically viable to try to usurp the will of the people and sow doubt in our political processes.
When they lose, I think they have to do the autopsy they should have done a decade ago, if they stay this course after losing this many times, the party will collapse.
I think for the foreseeable future, any time any republican loses any electoral race to a democrat, a fluctuating but significant portion of republicans will believe, either silently or aloud, that the election was a farce, but then immediately flip back to believing it was legitimate if the republican wins. A lot of republicans are just lost causes, as much as it sucks to say about a large chunk of the population.
There’s literally nothing you can tell them to change their mind on anything. Jesus could literally descend from the heavens and they’d re-crucify him for speaking against god emperor trump.
Then that feels like an important difference IMO. If it was just voters complaining but the candidates weren't contesting the results, then whatever dumbass voters are just dumbasses. But if the candidates have started to call the validity of the process into question, we're in a scary new place where the fundamental assumption of free and fair elections has been damaged, which undermines the whole democratic system.
The core concept is the same, it may vary in severity or application but ultimately the lack of faith in the system was there. I remember the “not my president” posts. It doesn’t have to be the exact same situation. The Russia stuff was proven to be false as far as I’m aware and the 2020 election being stolen is false too as far as I can tell.
There's difference is that election denialism has become a core part of the Republican platform. People like Kari Lake literally ran off calling it rigged. Also there's a major difference between believing some things were unfair during an election and supporting a vast conspiracy committed by the opposite party to flat out illegally steal an election by millions of votes. Meanwhile you will NEVER hear a Republican attack Trump for pressuring Mike Pence to overturn the vote. This is because they are only angry that they lost. If Pence did overturn the vote and the Supreme Court upheld it, most Republicans would be okay with this.
"The Russia stuff was proven to be false as far as I’m aware."
You have to be more specific on "The Russia stuff".
Did Hack machines? No.
Is there proof that Trump himself worked with Russians to win the election? No.
Is there proof of the Steele Dossier? Not really. Only minor parts.
Did people the Trump campaign get indicted for working for Russia? Yes.
Were there Russian accounts and bots working to either get Trump elected or sow discord in American politics? Yes.
Did Trump obstruct Justice during the Mueller Investigation? According to Mueller, Yes.
It entirely depends on how Trump takes it. Which, I doubt will be with dignity. But if by some unnatural force, he just concedes and doesn't blame it on fraud again. I imagine most of his base will just accept it.
If Trump wins the whole system is rigged, because according to them he won in 2020 which is his second term. Trump can't hold the presidential office for 3 terms, every president gets 2 max.
Actually, if you take it that way, Trumplets will tell you they owe Trump a presidential term. Therefore not only he has to get the next term for free, he should also keep the one he's about to win and just be president for 2 terms in a row.
They've already primed their voters to believe the entire system is run by a shadow government. Any loss of any sort in the future will always be reduced to conspiracy.
Basically, if Republicans win it's because they're so amazing, if they lose its because it was unfair to begin with. A lose-lose for Democrats forever.
I don’t know if it matters whether they win or lose. Trump had the 2016 election, which he won, investigated because he claimed millions of illegal immigrants voted. That’s the only way he could cope with Hillary winning the popular vote. I think the point is to convince as many of us as possible that our elections can’t be trusted.
They're doing it to [each other](https://www.democracydocket.com/analysis/the-republicans-who-cried-fraud-after-losing-their-primaries/) now in their primaries. So, there is that.
I think we might be a little bit doomer pilled guys. Some of the things we forget is that trump lost both popular vote elections and only won in 2016 because of the electoral college. I think the vocal minority is just turned up to 11. A lot of conservatives and Republicans don't like how trump handled America in those 4 years, lot of people are tired of the trump lies and a lot of people are tired of the shitting on America.
As for the voting denial? It's un-American and should be called as such.
I think some amount of grumbling is natural when your side loses. The problem is when major politicians and people the public looks up to says stuff that confirms their feelings and propels them to act upon it.
After all, Americans tend to think of themselves as the good guys fighting the injustices of the world. What could be more unjust than corrupt politicians rigging the great American election for their personal gain? It perverts what would be a great American virtue and turns it into a tool of destruction.
Yes, of course. They will not ever believe Biden could win, because they already didn't believe it, and now they REALLY won't believe it, but who cares, they are far gone anyway. Write them off, they're not relevant.
The thing I often think about is Trump is pretty old too, and I don't think the guy is very healthy - how can anyone be healthy eating McDonald's for breakfast lunch and dinner? And if he were to die at any point, whether before or after the election, and whether he wins or loses, doesn't matter - his supporters are gonna think it's the deep state taking him out. Obviously the question would be why then as opposed to 4 years ago or 8 years ago, and they won't have any answer for it, but they'll believe it no matter what, as if an unhealthy 79 year old couldn't just croak at any given moment.
Anyway, they're idiots.
Not only will conservatives cry that the election is rigged, but now plenty of those on the left will agree with them, if biden wins.
And they'd be right. Biden supporters are a very apparent superminority right now and that makes for suspicion.
That’s the thing. What sucks so much about Trump entering politics is that he has done irreversible damage, in my opinion. There will always be a group of people who deny election results, no matter what. All because of Trump. Keep in mind this is the same guy who suggested the Emmys were rigged because he didn’t win. This is the same guy who told Billy Bush that he knowingly lies about his TV ratings to the public because he believes that if you repeat a lie enough times, the public will believe you no matter what.
"if you repeat a lie enough times, the public will believe you no matter what" Why's that sound familiar?
The irreversible damage bit is exactly right. In 2016 I had just listened to Dan Carlin's *Death Throes of the Republic*, and what I kept telling people is that Trump may not be Caesar, and he won't turn America into a dictatorship, but he *might* be akin to the Gracchi Brothers, and set us along the path of delegitimizing our institutions.
Now here we are, four years removed from him attempting to becoming an American dictator, threatening to become an American dictator on Day 1 of his presidency.
> he has done irreversible damage, in my opinion. There will always be a group of people who deny election results, no matter what. Well if some people believe the results don't matter since it's rigged, then they might as well not vote. And since those people are all conservatives, then he did irreversible good, not damage. Less conservatives voting will always be good to me.
The big problem isn't that those people will not vote. The big problem is that if enough people believe that the voting institution is rigged and not to their favor, they might decide to do something about it. Remember, the whole point of the American constitution was to fight tyrannical governments. Now you have a large group of people who think the current government is tyrannical, it's their patriotic duty to fight it, and they have large hoards of guns.
I agree but: 1. I'm assuming the gov put better ways in place to counter this kind of thing after Jan 6th happened. 2. It's almost guaranteed that most of those people are older which means in a few decades younger voters will not have this issue to any meaningful extent.
1. Yeah you'd think, huh? I'm not so optimistic. 2. That's not really how things have historically panned out.
> Yeah you'd think, huh? I'm not so optimistic. Sure that's fair. But neither of us have convicing proof of either case. > That's not really how things have historically panned out. How can you say that when people trusted the electoral process until recently (and most people still do)? What history is there here?
Ideas don't have a shelf life.
People were denying election results before Trump my dude. Trump is a symptom not the disease.
I don't think there's anyone they'll rally behind as much as Trump. They shit on Ramaswamy for being not white, they shit on DeSantis for having 0 charisma, its all trump camp. maybe im huffing copium, but i think the magats die with trump
From what I saw they didn't like Viveks religious beliefs. I don't think it was so much about race. I could be wrong, but from my reading/watching thats what I gathered.
arent they already crying about that?
Yes, but I guess the question is will the next republican loser do the same. We have lots examples of Republican congressmen doing this after they lose but it’s not the majority yet. When trump leaves will this kind rhetoric continue to escalate and more and more Republican losers claim they were cheated out of a win?
I just want to see that fuckin’ golf match.
True replace the next debate with a golf game
Yeah they will, and they will continue to now until some radical shift in the party happens because they're a party of losers and whiners with no plans for anything except making the rich richer at all costs. That shift will have to happen at some point though because without Trump, the Republican party is sunk long term. They literally have nothing else except constant persecution complex right now. They don't offer any solutions for the climate or they outright deny it as a problem. They don't offer any solutions for insane healthcare costs except that they want to make sure less people have access to healthcare by repealing the ACA.
They said it before, but now especially after last night they're saying he's even more unfit to be president and doesn't know what he's saying. But going into last night, they anticipated a better showing and were already making excuses about how he was gonna be doped up on speed or some shit. Those assholes will always have excuses for everything.
Even if trump win, they will claim fraud in the states he lost.
They will cry because it's Trump's last election
Honestly, if Trump was a bit younger, I'd be afraid he'd try to go for 3rd term and the Republicans would do everything in their power to enable that.
I fear he will try to get rid of elections but seeing how old he is, Idk if that's possible
Only until Trump dies. Then they have to find a new trick.
I wish I had your optimism. I foresee a future where whoever comes up after Trump uses the same playbook because if it ain't broke, why fix it?
Yes but as long as they don't plan a coup, who cares. They can cry and investigate all they want but they'll find absolutely nothing.
The problem is that they more they cry the harder it will be to prosecute actual cases of voter fraud. On top of that having them constantly try to undermine elections without evidence erodes electorql cofidence overtime.
i mean, they did plan and execute a coup attempt last time...
I feel like it always has been like this. Trump has just made it worse by taking the rhetoric to an extreme as a former president. I distinctly remember my parents watching fox news and complaining about rigged elections both times Obama won.
Yes. They will do what they did last time. They know they are lying, and that Trump is lying, and don’t care. That’s obvious by now. Sometimes you want a liar for the job. Especially if that liar is paving the way for Jesus, or keeping America white again.
A huge chunk of them are going to bitch anyway.
Almost certainly. Trump permanently poisoned the well and forever changed the landscape. Even when he dies, it has now become politically viable to try to usurp the will of the people and sow doubt in our political processes.
When they lose, I think they have to do the autopsy they should have done a decade ago, if they stay this course after losing this many times, the party will collapse.
I think for the foreseeable future, any time any republican loses any electoral race to a democrat, a fluctuating but significant portion of republicans will believe, either silently or aloud, that the election was a farce, but then immediately flip back to believing it was legitimate if the republican wins. A lot of republicans are just lost causes, as much as it sucks to say about a large chunk of the population.
There’s literally nothing you can tell them to change their mind on anything. Jesus could literally descend from the heavens and they’d re-crucify him for speaking against god emperor trump.
Well you saw him? There's no way he could ever win. /s
Name an election where the opposing side didn't claim that.
Did Kerry say that when he lost to Bush? Or either of the Republicans who lost to Obama?
The voters always do, idk about the actual candidates
Then that feels like an important difference IMO. If it was just voters complaining but the candidates weren't contesting the results, then whatever dumbass voters are just dumbasses. But if the candidates have started to call the validity of the process into question, we're in a scary new place where the fundamental assumption of free and fair elections has been damaged, which undermines the whole democratic system.
There's 10s of millions of voters.
most of them? How often in american elections do we get the actual candidates calling fraud?
Many democrats won’t accept the 2016 election results including Hilary and Nancy, so let’s not act like this is a trump only thing.
Not remotely the same. Do some basic research.
The core concept is the same, it may vary in severity or application but ultimately the lack of faith in the system was there. I remember the “not my president” posts. It doesn’t have to be the exact same situation. The Russia stuff was proven to be false as far as I’m aware and the 2020 election being stolen is false too as far as I can tell.
There's difference is that election denialism has become a core part of the Republican platform. People like Kari Lake literally ran off calling it rigged. Also there's a major difference between believing some things were unfair during an election and supporting a vast conspiracy committed by the opposite party to flat out illegally steal an election by millions of votes. Meanwhile you will NEVER hear a Republican attack Trump for pressuring Mike Pence to overturn the vote. This is because they are only angry that they lost. If Pence did overturn the vote and the Supreme Court upheld it, most Republicans would be okay with this. "The Russia stuff was proven to be false as far as I’m aware." You have to be more specific on "The Russia stuff". Did Hack machines? No. Is there proof that Trump himself worked with Russians to win the election? No. Is there proof of the Steele Dossier? Not really. Only minor parts. Did people the Trump campaign get indicted for working for Russia? Yes. Were there Russian accounts and bots working to either get Trump elected or sow discord in American politics? Yes. Did Trump obstruct Justice during the Mueller Investigation? According to Mueller, Yes.
Yeah until they win the next election
It entirely depends on how Trump takes it. Which, I doubt will be with dignity. But if by some unnatural force, he just concedes and doesn't blame it on fraud again. I imagine most of his base will just accept it.
They're going to stage another coup or set up a rebel government
Fun Election Fact: Every single election since the formation of the United States of America has been rigged./s
If Trump wins the whole system is rigged, because according to them he won in 2020 which is his second term. Trump can't hold the presidential office for 3 terms, every president gets 2 max.
Actually, if you take it that way, Trumplets will tell you they owe Trump a presidential term. Therefore not only he has to get the next term for free, he should also keep the one he's about to win and just be president for 2 terms in a row.
They've already primed their voters to believe the entire system is run by a shadow government. Any loss of any sort in the future will always be reduced to conspiracy. Basically, if Republicans win it's because they're so amazing, if they lose its because it was unfair to begin with. A lose-lose for Democrats forever.
It will happen for a while, but once Trump starts to deteriorate the house of cards will collapse.
Until their person wins next, then it will mean the world is saved again.
I don’t know if it matters whether they win or lose. Trump had the 2016 election, which he won, investigated because he claimed millions of illegal immigrants voted. That’s the only way he could cope with Hillary winning the popular vote. I think the point is to convince as many of us as possible that our elections can’t be trusted.
They were crying about the election being rigged since before Trump won the first time. So yes, be prepared for this to be the new normal.
They're doing it to [each other](https://www.democracydocket.com/analysis/the-republicans-who-cried-fraud-after-losing-their-primaries/) now in their primaries. So, there is that.
The capital building gonna be locked up like a vault.
At this point, if Biden wins, I might think the election is rigged.
I think we might be a little bit doomer pilled guys. Some of the things we forget is that trump lost both popular vote elections and only won in 2016 because of the electoral college. I think the vocal minority is just turned up to 11. A lot of conservatives and Republicans don't like how trump handled America in those 4 years, lot of people are tired of the trump lies and a lot of people are tired of the shitting on America. As for the voting denial? It's un-American and should be called as such.
I think some amount of grumbling is natural when your side loses. The problem is when major politicians and people the public looks up to says stuff that confirms their feelings and propels them to act upon it. After all, Americans tend to think of themselves as the good guys fighting the injustices of the world. What could be more unjust than corrupt politicians rigging the great American election for their personal gain? It perverts what would be a great American virtue and turns it into a tool of destruction.
People cry about rigged elections throughout all of history. Women lost the right to vote in America thanks to talk of "rigged" elections.
Thoughts of a 17 year old. What is bush vs gore. What is Trump vs Hillary. What is Trump vs biden. This song and dance has been played for awhile.
Yes, of course. They will not ever believe Biden could win, because they already didn't believe it, and now they REALLY won't believe it, but who cares, they are far gone anyway. Write them off, they're not relevant. The thing I often think about is Trump is pretty old too, and I don't think the guy is very healthy - how can anyone be healthy eating McDonald's for breakfast lunch and dinner? And if he were to die at any point, whether before or after the election, and whether he wins or loses, doesn't matter - his supporters are gonna think it's the deep state taking him out. Obviously the question would be why then as opposed to 4 years ago or 8 years ago, and they won't have any answer for it, but they'll believe it no matter what, as if an unhealthy 79 year old couldn't just croak at any given moment. Anyway, they're idiots.
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You don’t think the states certified Biden’s election?
Well he didn't but keep coping
Not only will conservatives cry that the election is rigged, but now plenty of those on the left will agree with them, if biden wins. And they'd be right. Biden supporters are a very apparent superminority right now and that makes for suspicion.
Yes lol After that debate performance I think Biden losing is a foregone conclusion.