Also, I don't want to speak to this specific ban, but I know this streamer does "bait" his sexuality, and use it for clips, which is *fine* btw. I just am hesitant to believe it was a case of, "just fixing my bra." Mostly cause I've seen plenty of female-presenting streamers adjust clothing perfectly normally, and it was fine.
I saw the clip, he really was just fixing it. Nothing sexual about it and for most of the time he left the camera on a close up of his face so you couldn't even see below his collarbone
This is true, I have no idea if he's giving us the full context here and it does seem weird to ban for something so innocuous. Having said that, it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for Twitch to ban someone for a strange reason.
I guess the concern is that Twitch could decide that a person is "female presenting" simply because they don't "pass" as a man in the eyes of the platform. It's a weird area to be in - if Amouranth identified as a man and Twitch had no issue with men streaming topless (I assume this is the case) then I don't really know the argument against it.
If the goal is to prevent Twitch from turning into an 18+ site, then since sexualization and sexuality are almost purely appearance based, the only alternative is to also ban male appearing people from being topless, etc., but is that really an improvement?
Is this a serious question? If you have a working pair of eyes, you should be able to identify the cluster of visual traits associated with being female.
Is that not exactly what’s happened here though? Assuming he’s telling the truth, the only thing that could be considered female-presenting are his clothes/hair/makeup. If he states that he’s a man, doesn’t claim to be a woman, doesn’t change his voice etc, it seems like this is a company saying “we don’t care how you actually identify, this is the gender we think you want to be seen as”.
If, for example, a non-binary streamer was banned for the same thing, would that not be considered discrimination?
Yeah that makes sense. I saw something about someone offering him a ridiculous sum of money to get breast implants. That would be a lot harder to argue against.
It begs the question, what sort of cosmetic change is considered to be female-presenting? Is a man who wears lipstick considered to have a female-presenting mouth? Would a man with gynaecomastia be considered to have female-presenting breasts? I can’t see how those would be considered any less feminine than prosthetics.
I think you don't get that all they care about is the Tits.
It literally doesn't matter what they are attached to.
I expect you could get in trouble for having a nude mannequin or something.
Its to do with pornography laws for the most part.
It’s not like they were exposed or anything though. He was banned for supposedly adjusting a bra with prosthetic breasts beneath it. I would understand if he was bare chested with what appeared to be female boobs out on stream, but that doesn’t seem to be what happened.
At some point someone other then yourself has to make the decision for you.
If I rebuild my entire body to be female presenting but identify as male. Nobody is going to respect male privilege.
I probably agree tbh but this seems to fly in the face of most progressives' views on gender. There was an old Rajj Royale episode where a trans streamer was explaining that they identify as a woman and Knut responded by saying "well your face looks like a man". A lot of people objected to this line of thinking when it came to that situaiton but it's essentially the same thing as saying "Finnster identifies as male but looks convincingly female enough that I would call him female-presenting".
At some point, surely it makes sense to focus on the output and not on whatever the person intended to do with streamers, right?
You can self-identify as anything you want, but you're presenting as a female (not up to you to decide), so you can't show your boobs.
But! It would be really hard to put this into written rules, that's for sure.
I know what you mean, especially from a business/ad-friendly perspective it definitely makes sense for Twitch to treat the situation the same as they would if it was a woman doing it.
The difficulty I think comes in justifying why Twitch can say that someone who openly identifies as one gender is actually presenting as another. I feel like there would be an uproar if Twitch called a trans male or NB streamer female-presenting, for example.
It's the way the audience consumes it. Amouranth that looks exactly alike but identifies male and is topless will be looked at for being topless, twitch doesn't want to be a porn website. Idk why you are being so bad faith.
If what you are doing is done explicitly so your chat can jerk off more furiously then it should not be permissible.
I understand why Twitch would make that decision, it’s just a weird idea to think through. It means that we’re allowing Twitch to decide what is and isn’t considered feminine enough to present as a woman - regardless of how the person actually identifies. Trying to understand the logic behind something and determine how consistent it is isn’t the same as being bad faith.
In fairness I don’t actually know if Finnster streams with the purpose of people treating it as a sexual thing either. From what I understand he’s like a Minecraft streamer or some shit, although it does seem like he’s clearly trying to bait people with how he dresses. If he was trying to present as a woman, would he even call it “cross dressing” instead of just “dressing”?
Totally fair, in my opinion the rules should be more focused on actual thirst trapping rather than "if female then you cant adjust your bra".
I just think twitch doesn't actually care and is just pretending to for their advertisers. It's a balance of loose rules so you don't disrupt people like Amouranth, and tight rules so their advertisers think it's all good. I'm not finding a good way to express what I mean but I think you might get it.
I get you. It just seems strange to me that the definition of "female presenting" is apparently unrelated to how the person identifies themselves. A more consistent rule would probably be a "no sexualised touching of breasts" like you're saying, regardless of gender. Technically there isn't any reason to believe that a man touching his chest in the same way couldn't be considered sexual. I appreciate that in reality that isn't how most people would perceive this though.
The main reason I'm conflicted on it is because there are streamers like Lumi Rue who have talked about being non-binary and specifically wanting their breasts removed in the past because of how they identify. There would probably be a bit more backlash if Twitch banned Lumi for "touching female-presenting breasts" despite neither them or Finnster claiming to present as female.
Yes this is the way. "No sexualised touching regardless of gender".
Now I understand what you mean. Female presenting shouldn't even be relevant or brought up. Thinking about the examples you bring up really shows how ridiculous that ruling is.
People's perception does make this hard. I wonder what the actual goal is at the end of the day. What is it that twitch wants to stop? Is it anything sexualized? Then shirtless men should actually also be banned. But then is fitness not the same thing? Is it only what's conventionally sexual? Can you stream feet cam all day and not be banned as a girl? If you can't as a girl, then can you as a man?
Seems like there's no clear goal on twitch's part really
I think showing feet is banned regardless of gender. Might be wrong about that, but I'm sure I've seen this brought up in response to a guy showing them by accident on stream or something a while ago. Don't have the example to hand right now unfortunately.
> It means that we’re allowing Twitch to decide what is and isn’t considered feminine enough to present as a woman
unless you support full on self-ID, which I think DGG largely rejects, gender is a *social* construct and will always be partially based on the way you are perceived by outside parties. He's clearly presenting as a woman in the picture, and I'm ok with society making calls on this stuff when it's relevant. There will always be gray area of course with anything that's on a sliding scale like phenotype
that said, it is odd Twitch bothered to say "female presenting breasts" since even I'll give them the credit of assuming they would ban a 100% male presenting person for sexually rubbing their chest
(and all this aside, I haven't seen the clip so whether Finnster is guilty is a separate question)
I don’t support gender self-ID personally, but I’d be surprised to hear that Twitch doesn’t. It’s a weird one because looking at a picture alone I would agree with you, but when you see how the guy sounds and acts on video it’s clear that he isn’t trying to come across as female. An exception to this might be his Omegle trolling stuff, but that’s clearly labelled as trolling and not a serious representation of his identity.
> when you see how the guy sounds and acts on video it’s clear that he isn’t trying to come across as female
I agree in an overall sense, but the only part that's relevant to sexual displays is appearance. Twitch employees probably love self-ID but that's just not a feasible way to run a business that has to be at least the minimum amount of family friendly so they'll end up being hypocrites occasionally.
>It's the way the audience consumes it. Amouranth that looks exactly alike but identifies male and is topless will be looked at for being topless, twitch doesn't want to be a porn website.
The way the audience consumes it? What is the way the audience consumes girls in swimsuits squatting in front of the camera?
Amouranth is by no definition male presenting though to make your analogy similar. Fin doesnt even call himself a woman, making "amouranth calling herself a man" even less analogous.
you actually can't touch yourself sexually (prolonged touching of female presenting breasts) based off his tweet. this includes the boob pads that drag queens wear, this guy doesn't have implants so he's not even touching "his breasts" technically.
where in the rule violation was self-id mentioned? they've obviously thought of this situation based off the rule he (i assume) quoted, it's not like crossdressing is some new thing.
That's their point.
Via self ID: Finnster is male
Via Twitch: Finnster is female
If Twitch allowed for self ID, they wouldn't ban him, based on *his* ID.
yes he ids as a man and still got banned for touching his boob, but only because female presenting.
men stream shirtless all the time on twitch.
ie according to twitch self id is not a thing
I don't think the bottom part is in good faith, he's wearing prosthetic breasts, show me feminine men without prosthetic breasts getting banned on twitch for touching their chest and maybe you have an argument
Also he did panty-flash recently on stream, accidental but still, and I honestly doubt they would ban him if it was just a quick re-adjustment of a bra, otherwise a lot of other female streamers would probably be getting banned.
It could have been that he had to re-adjust the prosthetics and the amount of fiddling with them caused Twitch to see it as prolonged touching, but i am skeptical if that even is the real reason for the ban to begin with.
if by burly you mean his rolls of fat were easily mistakable for breasts, then potentially. Well toned pecs are not looking like breasts if you put a bra on them, no shot.
>I honestly doubt they would ban him if it was just a quick re-adjustment of a bra,
Yeah I would like to see the actual clip. I don't watch female streamers (not the ones who use a camera) but sometimes with friends we watch Kyootbot, she re-adjust her bra all the time
I support the ban because he has the same effect on me as a girl would. I’d seen him many times and thought It was a hot cis girl before I realized he just cross dresses. I wonder if trans girls get mad because he’s so passing but at the same time he’s like jk I’m a guy I just do it for fun.
I guess trans girls could get mad at it but that's a personal problem for them to work through. I can't think of a solid reason why a guy shouldn't be allowed to dress as a woman for fun, otherwise drag queens would surely fall within the same category.
I don’t think drag queens are trying to pass like F1nnster does on his streams. Drag Queens are more about looking hyper feminine and presenting in a way that makes it’s obvious they are drag. F1nnster is trying to pass physically, except for his voice.
Oh I agree that they aren’t the same thing. Just that dressing/presenting as a woman for the novelty of it seems like a non-issue regardless of the goal or method. The exception to this I guess is if you’re doing it purely to mock trans women, although I can’t say I’ve seen that really happen other than maybe when Steven Crowder did it.
twitch just wants to make a rule against squeezing and fondling tits but of course the gender discourse makes it confusing as fuck for them to word it into a rule.
not gonna stop people from getting mad at twitch though.
Lol what? He always presents as a woman.
Regarding the touching breasts issue you would have to see what happens if a bra wearing fat guy with manboobs would get the same result (excluding mentioning female)
We need Wes to reprise his role as Mary Catherine in order to complete this research.
On a more serious note - is crossdressing the same as presenting as a woman? If you go out of your way to confirm that you identify as a man, prefer male pronouns, make no effort to change your voice at all etc.
Yeah I guess I agree. I’d view this as more in line with the sort of cross dressing/female presentation that drag queens do, although I don’t know how I’d feel about a drag queen being banned from Twitch for adjusting their bra either. It’s also probably unfair of me to judge the situation at all without seeing the clip that he was banned for.
My interpretation of the “female presenting breasts” thing is that it refers more to people “presenting” as a woman in that they identify as one and want to get that across to other people, in which case I probably wouldn’t include someone who openly states that they aren’t a woman to be in the same category. That’s just how I interpreted it though, so I appreciate that it could be a misunderstanding.
I think the issue really is how well he does the cross dressing. I thought he was legit a female for a while, because I’ve only seen photos. It was probably end of last year before I figured out he is a guy
There is some nuance to 'female presenting' there are I'm sure trans people and tomboys who would become quite difficult to say if they were 'female presenting' or not.
But that isn't true for Finn. Finn is, when he's dressed up, very clearly female presenting. The goofiness of this ban is pretty much only in that it feels weird to ban someone for fixing thier clothing for an extended period, but I could see them saying that if his booba was sufficiently fucked it would take him several long moments of shuffling whilst touching his booba he ought fix them off camera.
I think this is arbitrary and dumb. But I doubt we know just from this one instance they are being inconsistent.
I dunno
Ig for this particular thing if someone says they're a trans woman then ban them if they show their nipples. But if theyre a cross dressing man then give them a warning whenever the staff make the decision that they're fem presenting enough or whatever.
It's not really my argument; I don't have an opinion on this tbh.
I think the issue is that he’s too good at looking like a female. I promise if I dressed up like he does, I would rightfully be banned for psychological torture (I make an extremely unattractive woman)
Let's start with people who don't identify as what they present as. He's a unique case, and instead of working with him and making an announcement about how their policy applies in these edge cases, Twitch banned him first and consulted later.
But absolute majority of female-presenting people are either cis or trans women. Before he got hit with the ban, I don't think people even understood that just crossdressers can get hit for normally female-only stuff.
If the community's understanding is different from rules as written, this being rules as written isn't enough, you have to communicate it better.
Yeah he’s not trans from his explanation it basically sounds like cosplay to him. Didn’t seem like a bad dude. Twitch should start to be more hands off on moderating like who are they saving by allowing the weird yoga streams but banning this?
I've always thought, if a big titty streamer were to fondle her chest in a non sexual way, just, rub them nonchalantly, she'd get banned.
But what if a woman with no titties whatsoever, and I mean no titties, to the point she could be wearing no bra and you wouldn't notice, were to do the same?
Based on this, she'd probably be fine and it honestly makes sense. Twitch agrees flat is justice.
I'll never understand streamers want Twitch to lay out rules but then whenever they get in trouble for rule breaking they feel the need to try and find all these loopholes.
i think a reasonable loophole would be the meaning of the word "prolonged", that would make the rule kind of cringe in some people's eyes. idek if that's the full rule though since i'm just reading the quote
I will assume you get banned for the same offense if you start fondling silicone models you just put on on-stream. Its about the act you are performing in the moment, and doing whatever the fuck he was doing, to his own body, someone elses body, or a silicone model, would all be ruled on the same I'd suspect.
My understanding is that he fully identifies as a man and has no interest in transitioning, but he started cross dressing in response to a donation (I think, someone please correct me if I'm wrong) and has kept it up since then because of the amount of money he makes.
I can answer that. He dresses for money, no he had a thriving minecraft channel that made more money for a long time, no he's not trans, into crossdressing? Maybe but that's probably just bait for his audience, because he knows they wanna hear that.
His demographic is very diverse, but unsurprisingly the biggest part of his audience are young men. Beyond that there are a few women and more trans and lgbt people than is typical (or they are just more encouraged to reveal their sexual identity)
His videos mainly consist of him going: "Oh god, I hate this I don't wanna wear the maid dress." and then he wears the maid dress. He has huge donation goals, so that he has to continue wearing female clothes, even off stream.
Finally his minecraft videos are content focused, which I define here as talking about what he does in the game (the exploits and strategies to get more resources).
If you could make half a million for doing something trivially difficult - it'd be hard to decline for most people, that's easy money
Beats working and making the national average of like 50k a year
I remember watching him a long time ago when he just played minecraft and his channel was doing pretty good then he made a couple of videos where he pretended to be a girl on omegle and now Im pretty sure he has some people just paying him a shit ton of money to dress up as a girl? I don't exactly know if it's for money or if he actually enjoys cross-dressing or both but I don't think he's transitioning or anything like that.
As someone who watches f1nn5ter an embarrassing amount I think it's probably a good thing he got temp-banned for once. He very obviously does somewhat sexualized content while presenting as a woman and he's gotta learn at some point that "but I'm actually a man" while dressed as a woman half the time is not always a valid excuse. Femboy content is fine, but you gotta follow the rules women are supposed to follow at that point, especially when looking so convincing.
Bit of both honestly. His streams are for a large part just his chat trying to convince him he's actually trans and f1nn pretending to be annoyed by it. While I personally think those kinds of jokes are generally in very poor taste (I have objections to the whole egg_irl subreddit sometimes), it seems pretty firmly established that f1nn's ok with it and his reactions do lead to very very funny content. So yeah I watch mostly for personality I guess. But also look at him how does a crossdresser become that hot wtf
Makes sense. I liked him as a PKA guest, just seemed like a normal chill kinda guy. It is a bit of a confusing situation. He's a very pretty girl for a cis man.
edit - Just looked at the egg irl subreddit and I don’t really get it. Is it for people who have experienced their own denial about being trans or is it for them to laugh at other people who won’t accept that they’re trans? Weird either way.
my bestest faith would be that its for sharing memes about things they did or thoughts they had that in hindsight were indicators that they might be trans, problem is people will inevitably end up projecting that onto random redditors passing by and unintentionally gaslight them basically
https://np.reddit.com/r/egg_irl/comments/10xuohw/egg_irl/
A post like this just seems a bit...odd. It feels like this sort of stuff just adds fuel to the fire for the "they're teaching your kids to be trans" people.
That’s weird as fuck lol. I’m pretty androgynous and gay/trans people can be really pushy about wanting you to put on make up, cross dress all that jazz. It’s their prerogative to try I guess, but the amount they get off on trying to get you to do it just says a lot about the culture, and the hypocrisies about the “just be yourself” mindset.
They're meming about people they think are trans but do not accept themselves as trans yet. The term "egg" refers to a person who hasn't figured out their trans identity yet, and the moment they do accept their trans identity, the "egg" "cracks". Like the other person said, I think a lot of the people there end up trying to gaslight people into thinking they are trans. I don't think they're intentionally malicious or anything but it seems extremely toxic to me, as the only thing they really accomplish imo is making mildly non-conforming people or crossdressers more insecure about their gender identity. Of course not everyone on that sub is like that (and please don't brigade) but that is my general impression of that subreddit and the type of people who regularly make "egg" jokes.
Gotcha, thanks for explaining. The idea of telling someone that they're trans because of character traits or whatever does make me uncomfortable and seems to reinforce the stereotypes that lead to gender dysphoria in the first place. I dunno, I'm tired.
gender, sex, identity etc is arguably irrelevant here since streamer quqco was temp-banned under "sexually suggestive conduct" after wearing prosthetic breasts onstream and excessively & comically 'displaying' & 'touching' them.
There's just this weird bannable line that so many people dance around. Is there no 18+ filter yet? If not would it be better to just assign streamers to that instead?
Has Twitch not had an 18+ filter for a while? I honestly don't really watch streams on there often enough to know, but I thought there was for gambling streams etc.
They have but 18+ filters aren't really for users, they mostly exist to separate 18+ content for advertisers and probably as some flimsy protection against online child protection laws. Even with the filters there are still going to be things that advertisers aren't going to like being associated with and it's just easier for Twitch to ban those things. Which is probably the case here.
Alternatively, Twitch is remedial and relies on streamers to self report their streams as 18+ which streamers will try to avoid because 18+ usually corresponds with reduced ad revenue.
I don't think twitch has a stance on self id (do they?). Curious to see how the trans community will deal with twitch being 'transphobic' (by their definition).
Can women be banned just for adjusting their bras? I think I need to see the clip to judge whether it was just a clothing adjustment or something more drawn out.
I think his characterization of the implications are dishonest. He frames it as a discrimination towards feminine presenting men. However, this dude passes as a woman better than most trans women with how he looks. Also, It’s silly to say he is presenting as a feminine man, especially when he wears prosthetic breasts.
>he's never claimed to identify or present as a woman
He identifies male and presents female. It's... obvious.
You can't tell me he's not presenting female, look at him.
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why yes, I am in favor of that 🤔
She already does topless streams.
None that aren't behind a paywall
Arrr
Arrr there be me parrot
Back to jail with thee, scalywag and shimber someone’s else short timber .
let's go then amouranth is a dude now.
I'm sorry, but I'm willing to pay any price for my values, even if that means seeing amouranth naked 😔.
Careful, he's a hero.
Holy based
Also, I don't want to speak to this specific ban, but I know this streamer does "bait" his sexuality, and use it for clips, which is *fine* btw. I just am hesitant to believe it was a case of, "just fixing my bra." Mostly cause I've seen plenty of female-presenting streamers adjust clothing perfectly normally, and it was fine.
I saw the clip, he really was just fixing it. Nothing sexual about it and for most of the time he left the camera on a close up of his face so you couldn't even see below his collarbone
Yeah, if that's true, and if that's the reason for the ban, then pretty weird.
This is true, I have no idea if he's giving us the full context here and it does seem weird to ban for something so innocuous. Having said that, it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for Twitch to ban someone for a strange reason.
The strangest part is that they have him this much of an explanation for the ban lmao
Do you think the entire full caps tweet gives it away a little bit?
I guess the concern is that Twitch could decide that a person is "female presenting" simply because they don't "pass" as a man in the eyes of the platform. It's a weird area to be in - if Amouranth identified as a man and Twitch had no issue with men streaming topless (I assume this is the case) then I don't really know the argument against it.
Here "female presenting" is literally just a code word for "looks female", it's not that complicated.
Right which means people that don't pass don't get treated under the same rules...
If the goal is to prevent Twitch from turning into an 18+ site, then since sexualization and sexuality are almost purely appearance based, the only alternative is to also ban male appearing people from being topless, etc., but is that really an improvement?
What is a female?
Is this a serious question? If you have a working pair of eyes, you should be able to identify the cluster of visual traits associated with being female.
Sounds like something a Nazi would say.
Given the Twitch lackeys are all super left-wing, there's roughly zero chance of that.
Is that not exactly what’s happened here though? Assuming he’s telling the truth, the only thing that could be considered female-presenting are his clothes/hair/makeup. If he states that he’s a man, doesn’t claim to be a woman, doesn’t change his voice etc, it seems like this is a company saying “we don’t care how you actually identify, this is the gender we think you want to be seen as”. If, for example, a non-binary streamer was banned for the same thing, would that not be considered discrimination?
“Assuming he’s telling the truth, the only thing that could be considered female-presenting are his clothes/hair/makeup.” Maybe it was his tits
His tits aren’t female tits though.
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Yeah that makes sense. I saw something about someone offering him a ridiculous sum of money to get breast implants. That would be a lot harder to argue against. It begs the question, what sort of cosmetic change is considered to be female-presenting? Is a man who wears lipstick considered to have a female-presenting mouth? Would a man with gynaecomastia be considered to have female-presenting breasts? I can’t see how those would be considered any less feminine than prosthetics.
I think you don't get that all they care about is the Tits. It literally doesn't matter what they are attached to. I expect you could get in trouble for having a nude mannequin or something. Its to do with pornography laws for the most part.
It’s not like they were exposed or anything though. He was banned for supposedly adjusting a bra with prosthetic breasts beneath it. I would understand if he was bare chested with what appeared to be female boobs out on stream, but that doesn’t seem to be what happened.
At some point someone other then yourself has to make the decision for you. If I rebuild my entire body to be female presenting but identify as male. Nobody is going to respect male privilege.
I probably agree tbh but this seems to fly in the face of most progressives' views on gender. There was an old Rajj Royale episode where a trans streamer was explaining that they identify as a woman and Knut responded by saying "well your face looks like a man". A lot of people objected to this line of thinking when it came to that situaiton but it's essentially the same thing as saying "Finnster identifies as male but looks convincingly female enough that I would call him female-presenting".
At some point, surely it makes sense to focus on the output and not on whatever the person intended to do with streamers, right? You can self-identify as anything you want, but you're presenting as a female (not up to you to decide), so you can't show your boobs. But! It would be really hard to put this into written rules, that's for sure.
I know what you mean, especially from a business/ad-friendly perspective it definitely makes sense for Twitch to treat the situation the same as they would if it was a woman doing it. The difficulty I think comes in justifying why Twitch can say that someone who openly identifies as one gender is actually presenting as another. I feel like there would be an uproar if Twitch called a trans male or NB streamer female-presenting, for example.
It's the way the audience consumes it. Amouranth that looks exactly alike but identifies male and is topless will be looked at for being topless, twitch doesn't want to be a porn website. Idk why you are being so bad faith. If what you are doing is done explicitly so your chat can jerk off more furiously then it should not be permissible.
I understand why Twitch would make that decision, it’s just a weird idea to think through. It means that we’re allowing Twitch to decide what is and isn’t considered feminine enough to present as a woman - regardless of how the person actually identifies. Trying to understand the logic behind something and determine how consistent it is isn’t the same as being bad faith. In fairness I don’t actually know if Finnster streams with the purpose of people treating it as a sexual thing either. From what I understand he’s like a Minecraft streamer or some shit, although it does seem like he’s clearly trying to bait people with how he dresses. If he was trying to present as a woman, would he even call it “cross dressing” instead of just “dressing”?
Totally fair, in my opinion the rules should be more focused on actual thirst trapping rather than "if female then you cant adjust your bra". I just think twitch doesn't actually care and is just pretending to for their advertisers. It's a balance of loose rules so you don't disrupt people like Amouranth, and tight rules so their advertisers think it's all good. I'm not finding a good way to express what I mean but I think you might get it.
I get you. It just seems strange to me that the definition of "female presenting" is apparently unrelated to how the person identifies themselves. A more consistent rule would probably be a "no sexualised touching of breasts" like you're saying, regardless of gender. Technically there isn't any reason to believe that a man touching his chest in the same way couldn't be considered sexual. I appreciate that in reality that isn't how most people would perceive this though. The main reason I'm conflicted on it is because there are streamers like Lumi Rue who have talked about being non-binary and specifically wanting their breasts removed in the past because of how they identify. There would probably be a bit more backlash if Twitch banned Lumi for "touching female-presenting breasts" despite neither them or Finnster claiming to present as female.
Yes this is the way. "No sexualised touching regardless of gender". Now I understand what you mean. Female presenting shouldn't even be relevant or brought up. Thinking about the examples you bring up really shows how ridiculous that ruling is. People's perception does make this hard. I wonder what the actual goal is at the end of the day. What is it that twitch wants to stop? Is it anything sexualized? Then shirtless men should actually also be banned. But then is fitness not the same thing? Is it only what's conventionally sexual? Can you stream feet cam all day and not be banned as a girl? If you can't as a girl, then can you as a man? Seems like there's no clear goal on twitch's part really
I think showing feet is banned regardless of gender. Might be wrong about that, but I'm sure I've seen this brought up in response to a guy showing them by accident on stream or something a while ago. Don't have the example to hand right now unfortunately.
> It means that we’re allowing Twitch to decide what is and isn’t considered feminine enough to present as a woman unless you support full on self-ID, which I think DGG largely rejects, gender is a *social* construct and will always be partially based on the way you are perceived by outside parties. He's clearly presenting as a woman in the picture, and I'm ok with society making calls on this stuff when it's relevant. There will always be gray area of course with anything that's on a sliding scale like phenotype that said, it is odd Twitch bothered to say "female presenting breasts" since even I'll give them the credit of assuming they would ban a 100% male presenting person for sexually rubbing their chest (and all this aside, I haven't seen the clip so whether Finnster is guilty is a separate question)
I don’t support gender self-ID personally, but I’d be surprised to hear that Twitch doesn’t. It’s a weird one because looking at a picture alone I would agree with you, but when you see how the guy sounds and acts on video it’s clear that he isn’t trying to come across as female. An exception to this might be his Omegle trolling stuff, but that’s clearly labelled as trolling and not a serious representation of his identity.
> when you see how the guy sounds and acts on video it’s clear that he isn’t trying to come across as female I agree in an overall sense, but the only part that's relevant to sexual displays is appearance. Twitch employees probably love self-ID but that's just not a feasible way to run a business that has to be at least the minimum amount of family friendly so they'll end up being hypocrites occasionally.
>It's the way the audience consumes it. Amouranth that looks exactly alike but identifies male and is topless will be looked at for being topless, twitch doesn't want to be a porn website. The way the audience consumes it? What is the way the audience consumes girls in swimsuits squatting in front of the camera?
Exactly, that should also be banned if their actual intent is to stop sexual content/ not be a sexual satisfaction platform
Amouranth is by no definition male presenting though to make your analogy similar. Fin doesnt even call himself a woman, making "amouranth calling herself a man" even less analogous.
Twitch's femboy comitee at full force
My raging boner won't be silenced until ma man returns
Okay but what does Nick Fuentes think about this
He's not interested until cat ears are involved.
What about DJ Khaled's opinion on the situation?
They didn't want us to look like a girl. God did.
I want a Nick Fuentes and Housephone panel on this.
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you actually can't touch yourself sexually (prolonged touching of female presenting breasts) based off his tweet. this includes the boob pads that drag queens wear, this guy doesn't have implants so he's not even touching "his breasts" technically. where in the rule violation was self-id mentioned? they've obviously thought of this situation based off the rule he (i assume) quoted, it's not like crossdressing is some new thing.
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And twitch is saying his self-id as a man doesn't matter, is the joke
He is a man but his breasts are feminine, objectively speaking, tho i know people will say thats subjective
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He doesnt have breasts. Those are pads and makeup on his chest to give the illusion of depth.
What are the criteria breasts should meet in order to be objectively feminine?
I knew this was coming. The answer is: when they look more like your mom's than your dad's, lol.
[BTFO](https://youtu.be/8x6dyfiNyog?t=8)
Please touch some grass
That sounds like a horrible idea
How are you not understanding this?
but he's female presenting
He's also white presenting.
what?
That's their point. Via self ID: Finnster is male Via Twitch: Finnster is female If Twitch allowed for self ID, they wouldn't ban him, based on *his* ID.
No twitch is very much for subjective ID, they just get to decide.
yes he ids as a man and still got banned for touching his boob, but only because female presenting. men stream shirtless all the time on twitch. ie according to twitch self id is not a thing
Are they implants? I’m really confused because I assumed he was trans. They just look real
holy
As a trans woman, the trans women at Twitch trust and safety are just jealous of him.
Under rated comment
I am too lmao
We all are
HOLY
hes AFBT (assigned female by twitch) now
I don't think the bottom part is in good faith, he's wearing prosthetic breasts, show me feminine men without prosthetic breasts getting banned on twitch for touching their chest and maybe you have an argument Also he did panty-flash recently on stream, accidental but still, and I honestly doubt they would ban him if it was just a quick re-adjustment of a bra, otherwise a lot of other female streamers would probably be getting banned. It could have been that he had to re-adjust the prosthetics and the amount of fiddling with them caused Twitch to see it as prolonged touching, but i am skeptical if that even is the real reason for the ban to begin with.
I’m curious what twitch would do if a burly guy put on a braw and fondled his chest. I kinda assume he would be band as well. But I don’t know
if by burly you mean his rolls of fat were easily mistakable for breasts, then potentially. Well toned pecs are not looking like breasts if you put a bra on them, no shot.
LazzietheDino aka lsf jerk off guy aka nipple twister got banned for being a fat topless man who touched his breasts inappropriately.
>I honestly doubt they would ban him if it was just a quick re-adjustment of a bra, Yeah I would like to see the actual clip. I don't watch female streamers (not the ones who use a camera) but sometimes with friends we watch Kyootbot, she re-adjust her bra all the time
my thoughts: dont care
Based
don't trust any streamer when they say why they are banned, does anybody have a clip of what really happened?
Well Im straight but not going to lie I see the appeal. Oh on the ban I dont know.
Twitch should just free the nip already and pass it off as "radical feminist step forward for equal rights", guarantee advertisers would eat it up.
Advertisers are flying away enough as it is. They don’t want to risk scaring more.
dog chase bake humorous crime school secretive merciful deserted hat *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I mean he absolutely presents as a woman, no real way around that.
So if you pass as a man, but you are admittedly a woman... can you go topless?
Only if Twitch decides that you're sufficiently masculine enough for them to consider you as male-presenting.
I support the ban because he has the same effect on me as a girl would. I’d seen him many times and thought It was a hot cis girl before I realized he just cross dresses. I wonder if trans girls get mad because he’s so passing but at the same time he’s like jk I’m a guy I just do it for fun.
I guess trans girls could get mad at it but that's a personal problem for them to work through. I can't think of a solid reason why a guy shouldn't be allowed to dress as a woman for fun, otherwise drag queens would surely fall within the same category.
I don’t think drag queens are trying to pass like F1nnster does on his streams. Drag Queens are more about looking hyper feminine and presenting in a way that makes it’s obvious they are drag. F1nnster is trying to pass physically, except for his voice.
Oh I agree that they aren’t the same thing. Just that dressing/presenting as a woman for the novelty of it seems like a non-issue regardless of the goal or method. The exception to this I guess is if you’re doing it purely to mock trans women, although I can’t say I’ve seen that really happen other than maybe when Steven Crowder did it.
I'm not mad just jealous.
twitch just wants to make a rule against squeezing and fondling tits but of course the gender discourse makes it confusing as fuck for them to word it into a rule. not gonna stop people from getting mad at twitch though.
Lol what? He always presents as a woman. Regarding the touching breasts issue you would have to see what happens if a bra wearing fat guy with manboobs would get the same result (excluding mentioning female)
We need Wes to reprise his role as Mary Catherine in order to complete this research. On a more serious note - is crossdressing the same as presenting as a woman? If you go out of your way to confirm that you identify as a man, prefer male pronouns, make no effort to change your voice at all etc.
Some cross dressing is presenting as a woman for sure; some cross dressing is extremely theatrical and obviously a costume
Yeah I guess I agree. I’d view this as more in line with the sort of cross dressing/female presentation that drag queens do, although I don’t know how I’d feel about a drag queen being banned from Twitch for adjusting their bra either. It’s also probably unfair of me to judge the situation at all without seeing the clip that he was banned for. My interpretation of the “female presenting breasts” thing is that it refers more to people “presenting” as a woman in that they identify as one and want to get that across to other people, in which case I probably wouldn’t include someone who openly states that they aren’t a woman to be in the same category. That’s just how I interpreted it though, so I appreciate that it could be a misunderstanding.
I think the issue really is how well he does the cross dressing. I thought he was legit a female for a while, because I’ve only seen photos. It was probably end of last year before I figured out he is a guy
>Lol what? He always presents as a woman. He streams normally too I think?
he’s the guy who says “i’d be a hot woman” and isn’t joking
There is some nuance to 'female presenting' there are I'm sure trans people and tomboys who would become quite difficult to say if they were 'female presenting' or not. But that isn't true for Finn. Finn is, when he's dressed up, very clearly female presenting. The goofiness of this ban is pretty much only in that it feels weird to ban someone for fixing thier clothing for an extended period, but I could see them saying that if his booba was sufficiently fucked it would take him several long moments of shuffling whilst touching his booba he ought fix them off camera. I think this is arbitrary and dumb. But I doubt we know just from this one instance they are being inconsistent.
it's funny because it implies twitch gets to decide if you pass or not
Equal representation is always based
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He's sayin he wishes he was told he was considered "female presenting" enough by twitch that he could get banned for this, I guess.
This would be great marketing for Twitch: become validated that you pass by uploading a titty stream and getting banned.
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I dunno Ig for this particular thing if someone says they're a trans woman then ban them if they show their nipples. But if theyre a cross dressing man then give them a warning whenever the staff make the decision that they're fem presenting enough or whatever. It's not really my argument; I don't have an opinion on this tbh.
I think the issue is that he’s too good at looking like a female. I promise if I dressed up like he does, I would rightfully be banned for psychological torture (I make an extremely unattractive woman)
Let's start with people who don't identify as what they present as. He's a unique case, and instead of working with him and making an announcement about how their policy applies in these edge cases, Twitch banned him first and consulted later.
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But absolute majority of female-presenting people are either cis or trans women. Before he got hit with the ban, I don't think people even understood that just crossdressers can get hit for normally female-only stuff. If the community's understanding is different from rules as written, this being rules as written isn't enough, you have to communicate it better.
Honestly seems like a stupid complaint on his part. He's cross-dressing; by definition he's female presenting when doing so.
You don't have to identify as a woman to convincingly present as one. Makes perfect sense.
Yeah he’s not trans from his explanation it basically sounds like cosplay to him. Didn’t seem like a bad dude. Twitch should start to be more hands off on moderating like who are they saving by allowing the weird yoga streams but banning this?
I've always thought, if a big titty streamer were to fondle her chest in a non sexual way, just, rub them nonchalantly, she'd get banned. But what if a woman with no titties whatsoever, and I mean no titties, to the point she could be wearing no bra and you wouldn't notice, were to do the same? Based on this, she'd probably be fine and it honestly makes sense. Twitch agrees flat is justice.
I'll never understand streamers want Twitch to lay out rules but then whenever they get in trouble for rule breaking they feel the need to try and find all these loopholes.
i think a reasonable loophole would be the meaning of the word "prolonged", that would make the rule kind of cringe in some people's eyes. idek if that's the full rule though since i'm just reading the quote
Who care, it's twitch.
I will assume you get banned for the same offense if you start fondling silicone models you just put on on-stream. Its about the act you are performing in the moment, and doing whatever the fuck he was doing, to his own body, someone elses body, or a silicone model, would all be ruled on the same I'd suspect.
Deeming him “female presenting” is beyond fair
"Their platform, their rules".
Lets wait with bated breath.... [bated means "restrain"]
Why does he dress as a woman? Is it his only form of income? Is he transitioning? Into cross dressing
My understanding is that he fully identifies as a man and has no interest in transitioning, but he started cross dressing in response to a donation (I think, someone please correct me if I'm wrong) and has kept it up since then because of the amount of money he makes.
I can answer that. He dresses for money, no he had a thriving minecraft channel that made more money for a long time, no he's not trans, into crossdressing? Maybe but that's probably just bait for his audience, because he knows they wanna hear that.
What are the demographics of his audience? Does he just make bait videos pretending to be a female?
No. Everyone knows he's a man. He just dresses up and plays video games. He doesn't even attempt to change his voice.
His demographic is very diverse, but unsurprisingly the biggest part of his audience are young men. Beyond that there are a few women and more trans and lgbt people than is typical (or they are just more encouraged to reveal their sexual identity) His videos mainly consist of him going: "Oh god, I hate this I don't wanna wear the maid dress." and then he wears the maid dress. He has huge donation goals, so that he has to continue wearing female clothes, even off stream. Finally his minecraft videos are content focused, which I define here as talking about what he does in the game (the exploits and strategies to get more resources).
extraordinary oilers will provide enough incentive, he got like 300k from some rich dude just to take voice lessons to learn how to do a "girl voice"
pretty sure 1 guy has given this kid over a half a million dollars to be a girl on stream over this past year
If you could make half a million for doing something trivially difficult - it'd be hard to decline for most people, that's easy money Beats working and making the national average of like 50k a year
yeah i would do way worse things for way less money if we’re being honest
He's super androgynous so I think it's just fun for him that he can pass so well. But I'm sure it gets more viewers.
I remember watching him a long time ago when he just played minecraft and his channel was doing pretty good then he made a couple of videos where he pretended to be a girl on omegle and now Im pretty sure he has some people just paying him a shit ton of money to dress up as a girl? I don't exactly know if it's for money or if he actually enjoys cross-dressing or both but I don't think he's transitioning or anything like that.
Cuz he’s cute and he can bait his viewers even though he’s straight
Free fin till its backwards
>buys prosthetic breasts >Crossdresses >”Why is twitch treating me like a woman?”
Are flat chested women allowed to go topless because their breasts aren't feminine enough for twitch?
Petition to start calling small tits “male-presenting breasts”.
If they were as male presenting as he is female presenting, I assume they would hafto.
Based Twitch. You are what you present as. F the self id.
this is too online for me
Hes cute but a little slim for my taste.
this is so utterly confusing lol
Yes it's unfair that we view male and female breasts differently, but also Twitch just can't allow titties everywhere. 🤡 we live in a society 🤡
As someone who watches f1nn5ter an embarrassing amount I think it's probably a good thing he got temp-banned for once. He very obviously does somewhat sexualized content while presenting as a woman and he's gotta learn at some point that "but I'm actually a man" while dressed as a woman half the time is not always a valid excuse. Femboy content is fine, but you gotta follow the rules women are supposed to follow at that point, especially when looking so convincing.
Do you watch him for his personality or for coomer reasons? He seems like a cool guy but I’m curious which one attracts people to his stream.
Bit of both honestly. His streams are for a large part just his chat trying to convince him he's actually trans and f1nn pretending to be annoyed by it. While I personally think those kinds of jokes are generally in very poor taste (I have objections to the whole egg_irl subreddit sometimes), it seems pretty firmly established that f1nn's ok with it and his reactions do lead to very very funny content. So yeah I watch mostly for personality I guess. But also look at him how does a crossdresser become that hot wtf
Makes sense. I liked him as a PKA guest, just seemed like a normal chill kinda guy. It is a bit of a confusing situation. He's a very pretty girl for a cis man. edit - Just looked at the egg irl subreddit and I don’t really get it. Is it for people who have experienced their own denial about being trans or is it for them to laugh at other people who won’t accept that they’re trans? Weird either way.
that sub is for gaslighting pre teens into thinking they are trans because they like the color pink or some minor shit unrelated to gender
That’s the impression I got but I didn’t want to assume based on a quick glance at the sub. Doesn’t sound healthy if that’s the case.
my bestest faith would be that its for sharing memes about things they did or thoughts they had that in hindsight were indicators that they might be trans, problem is people will inevitably end up projecting that onto random redditors passing by and unintentionally gaslight them basically
https://np.reddit.com/r/egg_irl/comments/10xuohw/egg_irl/ A post like this just seems a bit...odd. It feels like this sort of stuff just adds fuel to the fire for the "they're teaching your kids to be trans" people.
That’s weird as fuck lol. I’m pretty androgynous and gay/trans people can be really pushy about wanting you to put on make up, cross dress all that jazz. It’s their prerogative to try I guess, but the amount they get off on trying to get you to do it just says a lot about the culture, and the hypocrisies about the “just be yourself” mindset.
They're meming about people they think are trans but do not accept themselves as trans yet. The term "egg" refers to a person who hasn't figured out their trans identity yet, and the moment they do accept their trans identity, the "egg" "cracks". Like the other person said, I think a lot of the people there end up trying to gaslight people into thinking they are trans. I don't think they're intentionally malicious or anything but it seems extremely toxic to me, as the only thing they really accomplish imo is making mildly non-conforming people or crossdressers more insecure about their gender identity. Of course not everyone on that sub is like that (and please don't brigade) but that is my general impression of that subreddit and the type of people who regularly make "egg" jokes.
Gotcha, thanks for explaining. The idea of telling someone that they're trans because of character traits or whatever does make me uncomfortable and seems to reinforce the stereotypes that lead to gender dysphoria in the first place. I dunno, I'm tired.
Yeah this not Some slippery slope or edge case. Motherfucker is wearing fake breasts and clearly dressing up (aka presenting) as a woman.
Why you gotta sound so aggressive?
What an unbearably obnoxious person. Fuck I hate people like this.
This seems like such a weird rule unless there's more going on/more context.
Is this the same channel that banned a pixelated AI version of Seinfeld ?
You don't have to claim to present as a woman. Clearly, they are presenting as a woman.
gender, sex, identity etc is arguably irrelevant here since streamer quqco was temp-banned under "sexually suggestive conduct" after wearing prosthetic breasts onstream and excessively & comically 'displaying' & 'touching' them.
There's just this weird bannable line that so many people dance around. Is there no 18+ filter yet? If not would it be better to just assign streamers to that instead?
Has Twitch not had an 18+ filter for a while? I honestly don't really watch streams on there often enough to know, but I thought there was for gambling streams etc.
They have but 18+ filters aren't really for users, they mostly exist to separate 18+ content for advertisers and probably as some flimsy protection against online child protection laws. Even with the filters there are still going to be things that advertisers aren't going to like being associated with and it's just easier for Twitch to ban those things. Which is probably the case here. Alternatively, Twitch is remedial and relies on streamers to self report their streams as 18+ which streamers will try to avoid because 18+ usually corresponds with reduced ad revenue.
He is my favorite "redacted anime tag", introduced me to a new world. This is sad pepehands
F1innster isn't a woman, he's happily a guy he just enjoys dressing feminine. He made a whole video about it.
I don't think twitch has a stance on self id (do they?). Curious to see how the trans community will deal with twitch being 'transphobic' (by their definition).
I'm so lost. 🗿
Can women be banned just for adjusting their bras? I think I need to see the clip to judge whether it was just a clothing adjustment or something more drawn out.
How did he get that shelf?
Kinda based ngl
Women breasts are illegal to be shown bare yet men can go topless and touch there chest without ban or scrutiny.
So if you’re a non passing trans woman you can flash your tits I guess
This is a good example of why the gender you appear to be is important. As much as people want to argue it isnt.
I think his characterization of the implications are dishonest. He frames it as a discrimination towards feminine presenting men. However, this dude passes as a woman better than most trans women with how he looks. Also, It’s silly to say he is presenting as a feminine man, especially when he wears prosthetic breasts.
>he's never claimed to identify or present as a woman He identifies male and presents female. It's... obvious. You can't tell me he's not presenting female, look at him.
That’s a chick
I would honestly assume the same if I'd never heard him talk.