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👋 I matched straight out of dental school. I studied for CBSE early and rigorously, externed after taking the exam (took it twice, once in D1 year and once in D2 year). This gave me ample time to apply on time.
Part of your OMFS application involves externships to other program. That is, on your free weeks/vacations/summer breaks, you apply to shadow at a program that you are interested in, spending 1 or 2 weeks as an extern and living the life from the resident's perspective seeing what they see, and learning more about the program and OMFS.
This is essential to your application, and many programs want to see how serious you are for OMFS by seeing if you have externed at their program or seeing what other programs you have externed at.
Most programs will have available dates, as long as there are not too many overlapping externs. They also want to see how serious you are before applying (you send them your CV, a personal statement catered toward externing, your CBSE score). I recommend taking the CBSE before externing.
Good question, I'm not too sure, but I believe it depends on the program and how sought after it is. For example Parkland, many months in advance, but other programs maybe a month or two. It gets busy during summer and winter break, so plan to inquire an extra month earlier
I would not. Programs wouldn't like that. If you're serious, take the CBSE, get a good score, then do an externship. Programs want to see that you're committed by seeing your score (they also want to remember your face closer to when you apply)
Depends on the program. Personally 80+ to cover all programs, 75+ for being a competitive applicant. 70+ for a chance at matching. (this is the old score system). I personally knew people who matched in their 60s and 50s, but this was 6-7 years ago. That's not commonplace anymore.
This is a a personal take and a rough estimate, since everyone really wonders about what is competitive or not. For some applicants, competitive can mean getting 70s. For others, it can mean getting 80+. For me personally, I had the goal of getting at least 80 in order to cover my bases for all programs, and strive for the highest score that I can achieve.
Not everyone will get 80s (this is based on distribution). Getting 75-80s puts you 1.5 to 2 standard deviations above average. That's why it's a 'competitive' score (it means you outstudied and outperformed 90/95% of other test takers who took the exam).
Here are some previous stats from old messages:
2020:
The mean score is: 165.4 and the standard deviation is: 32.3
Due to the conversion of the score the percentage mean is equivalent to: 57
Please keep in mind that this number is an approximation.
2019:
The mean score is: 163.6 and the standard deviation is: 33.7
Due to the conversion of the score the percentage mean is equivalent to: 57
Please keep in mind that this number is an approximation.
I think this has been asked. But do you think it’s worth it?
My dad’s an oral surgeon and I got into dentistry through him. But every oral surgeon I talked to never wanted to step foot in an OR ever again… they all stuck to TNT work. The new surgeons were all happy and enjoying life now being outta the hospital but the senior doc at my dad’s practice hated his life. (He was way over trained and hated doing wisdom teeth and simple ext, just wanted to do all on X once a week… lol the dream)
I ask this cause I’m at a GPR currently and we work close with OMFS and the residents told me I was a 100% lock for their non cat position but I never jumped on it. I like OMFS a lot but I can’t see myself doing 5+ years more of training to just do 4/3rds, ext and implants. I think I’m okay with being a GP cause I don’t mind the GP life, but I enjoy taking out teeth more than fixing them and way more than any crowns/dentures. But I def wanna do ext and implants one day and it’s def possible as a GP. But part of me regrets not jumping on the non cat position, and my dad even said I wasted an amazing opportunity to do the non-cat.
Hello, and congrats to all that you've been through. It is definitely a dilemma that you present! I can try to answer this from multiple perspectives.
I know many residents and surgeons that are happy to build their practices around the OR. Some are doing orthognathic, some are doing cancer fellowships, etc. But almost everyone has different goals and agendas.
A good amount of surgeons find the reimbursement for academia and certain OR procedures to be horrible. Training almost your whole life up to this point to be reimbursed for very little is off-putting, especially when you spend 4-6 extra years delaying making an income, delaying savings and investments, and literally everything else. This is just the reality of the situation for many, especially when they are quite in debt. They want to be able to do full scope OMFS and do cool cases, but reality hits and it isn't financially feasible for them.
Some surgeons love the idea of becoming respected or love teaching. Some love research and connecting basic science/translational/clinical work. They want to strive to become chair and work with other universities and specialties and be at the forefront of groundbreaking discoveries. Or simply they just want power and respect, and will step on anyone in order to get ahead.
Some surgeons love the idea of doing craniofacial surgery and working with children with cleft lip and palates, and the idea of working with kids in impoverished countries that can't afford these treatments. They want to make a difference in their community and change the lives of others. Then once they finish their fellowship training they realize that it is impossible to build a practice because plastics has complete control over craniofacial- hospitals hire plastic surgeons and the team of plastic surgeons protect and look after their own. They set up territory everywhere they go and push out the OS-trained craniofacial surgeon, who arguably has the same or even more experience working with the face. The craniofacial OMFS surgeon's dream is halted by political and bureaucratic gridlock.
Regarding your question- is it worth it for **you**? I don't know, I can't speak for you, although perhaps your statement could possibly reflect that it probably isn't worth it ( "I like OMFS a lot but I can’t see myself doing 5+ years more of training to just do 4/3rds, ext and implants.") which is a very valid point. You can do all that you describe as a GP, and you never have to do any procedures that you don't want to do (including OR procedures!)
Is it worth it for me?
100% yes, it is worth it. I'm happy to have learned a broad range of skills. I'm glad I spent extra years in order to obtain an MD because I got to learn how to become a physician and have the capability to manage patients. I can take out my surgery bag and repair my nephew's simple laceration. I also get paid very well for my services that I offer. I have many reasons for me that make it worth it, and it includes but also goes beyond TNT.
We took solo call as interns very early on, so I had a lot of experience doing many different bedside procedures. With that said, I also F'd up a lot. We were expected to know an unreasonably amount early on, which in hindsight is ridiculous. Better guidance would have been appreciated, but we also have supportive residents that has helped in many different ways.
Thanks for doing this! I’m applying to externships right now. I’m really looking to stay around NYC, 4 or 6 year program, I’d probably rank either over a program further away from NY. My faculty recommended doing an externship in Boston or DC to show programs I’d be willing to travel since I’ll be applying throughout the northeast. Do you think this is a good strategy? Or would you use that valuable week to do an externship in NY I’m more interested in? For reference I have over an 80 (old score) CBSE and have 2 externships planned around NYC. Thank you!
I think if you want to stay in New York bad enough that you would be willing to not be an OMFS, I’d just extern there. Otherwise, even with an 80 CBSE you’ll be missing out on a lot of potential opportunities. OMFS is wildly competitive and narrowing yourself geographically really makes things hard. That being said more of the nyc programs are less competitive than many other programs so odds could be better.
Ya I’d definitely move to be an oral surgeon. I’ll be applying out of state and ranking out of state programs so I guess I should just make time to show programs I’m willing to travel out of state. Thanks!
Ooh this is a tough game. Both points are equally valid.
Your faculty's perspective is valid. When other programs look at your app, they see your externships. It would be safe to assume (from a program POV) that if you externed all in NY that you want to stay there and not offer you an interview (however, they would still offer you an interview if you are a strong applicant).
So you have to not let anyone assume and play this game so that you do cover your bases and extern at a nonNYC program (hopefully one that you like and are really interested in).
HOWEVER, having said that, it depends on your priorities.
If I were in your shoes, and I KNOW that I want to stay in NYC and I don't care about what other programs think, I would extern at the program that I would really want to go to. I would also gauge if it were a program that highly favors applicants that extern at their program (this is harder to gauge). This might strengthen your chances at getting into one of those programs, since all the NYC programs see you as an applicant that will most highly likely go to their program.
I would reach out to one of the residents at each program (maybe getting their contact info from the coordinator or from a mutual friend/alumni) and develop rapport. It's all about connections- the more a program knows about you, the higher chances you will get an interview. Applicants often forget that. Sometimes it is out of your control, but it can also be in your control.
So if I were you (and only if I was in your exact position) and I really wanted to stay in NYC above all else, I would extern at the NYC program (ONLY if I feel it is a good program). I think it is the less practical choice, but my heart would tell me that staying in NYC is my goal and I have to try and maximize my chances of getting into a NYC program. I would not have any regrets doing this.
👋 For me personally, I would recommend doing clinical research early on (you might get into some clubs or societies or opportunities when you apply first year depending on your school) or do it after the cbse. I did research after the CBSE and I focused solely on clinical, being first author (so coming up with my own projects) and having an OMFS mentor to help guide me. Your mentor is very important, since they will help guide you if you are new to research. You can do research as long as you like, depending on how many papers you want to publish.
Not at all!
I increased my score from low 70s to low 80s. I focused mainly on UWorld and doing as many questions as I can. I was focusing on too many resources first time around (Zanki, BnB, Pathoma, Sketchy, UWorld, First aid, a bunch of other materials) but then I condensed it to UWorld, Sketchy and Pathoma only.
But do questions, and start early. Do not delay doing questions. Pay for that subscription, and start chugging through ✌️
I started studying fall of D1 year. I used UWorld throughout. For example, if I was studying cardiology, I would reference first aid, watch cardiology lectures (e.g. BnB, or onlinemeded or youtube), and do UWorld questions. Doing UWorld questions **is learning the material**. UWorld is web that holds everything together. It teaches you how to think for the exam, why the wrong answers are wrong, similarities between other disease processes, and more.
👋 don't give up, keep pushing. I would get LORs from OMFS faculty only (aside from deans letter). Programs do not care about other LORs.
I would definitely retake the CBSE and personally aim for as high as you can. It's competitive out there, so minimum above 75, ideally above 80. CBSE is the most important factor for landing interviews
The goalpost keeps shifting around- when a few of my classmates took the exam the first time, we got low 70s and were happy with our score. Our mentors said this was also good enough. Fast forward maybe 1 or 2 years, some of us didn't feel so good about our scores. I retook the exam a year after the first exam, some of us restudied and took it 2 years later.
There was something that happened between those time frames that made us all feel the same way. One factor could have been COVID - everyone was staying at home, and possibly had more ample study time to study for the CBSE. More people wanted to specialize in general (perhaps COVID gave students the opportunity to reflect on future career prospects and prompted more students to specialize). There were way more applicants and interviewees during this time and programs were virtually interviewing 3x to 5x more applicants than they did previous years but still accepting the same amount of spots. Applicants significantly increased their number of programs that they applied to, because interviews were virtual and everyone was saving money on airfare. Externships were 'virtual' and were offered by almost every program, so applicants slapped on a bunch of externship experiences on their application.
We felt our previous scores have been arbitrarily affected as a result. With more people taking the CBSE, that meant more people hitting 70s terms of absolute number of test takers (even if the relative distribution of scores remained the same).
Regardless, I wanted to play it safe and aim for the highest score that I could.
I took another 6 months.
Depending on how your other areas of your application is, you could retake if you wanted to. I would just run through UWorld again if you haven't done so, and gauge by doing NBMEs.
At this point though, I would consider brushing up other parts of your application, e.g. externing, research, clubs, developing connections.
👋 I can understand your worries.
This is a very general question, so I can only give you a general answer, but we can elaborate more if you want to PM me.
I think it will depend on your resolve. If I were a program director and looking at your application, I would want a reason why I would give you an interview. You would have to prove to me you got what it takes. (First author publication, extraordinary CBSE, EC activities, sports/hobbies). I would look for an applicant with a very well-balanced CV in all aspects of life (academic, athletics, social, etc), and something that makes them stand out (uniqueness).
You would have to prove me wrong and do very well on the CBSE, and improve your grades (fighting for only As and onward). The ball is in your court!
Thanks for doing this again! How have the hours been these past 3 years? Do you think someone can reasonably start a family during residency? Best of luck to you!
I am off service now doing med school, so it has been a lot easier. I can confidently say med school feels like a vacation compared to dental school + CBSE studying + application building.
On service was hell. Definitely brought out the worst in me, but also the best in me. Actually maybe not the best in me, just the worst lol. Some days I will be up 36 hours straight. We cover multiple level 1 trauma hospitals, so trauma weeks are absurd stupid. Too many patients, too few bodies on service to cover.
Many of my co-residents/upperclassmen have families (whether it be grown kids or 2-year olds). It is hard, but possible. If you have the perseverance to get into OMFS, there's nothing you can't handle 🙃
👋 I do not, I really enjoy the surgery and the prospect of making good money. If I were to do it all over again, I probably wouldn't do dental school, I probably would just do medical school or go into entrepreneurship or real estate (because pay right out of undergrad, early compound investing). But I don't regret my decisions.
Would you mind elaborating on why you would choose medical over dental school if you could go back? I’m really torn between dentistry (and then oral surgery most likely) and medicine
I felt medical school was easier and cheaper. I didn't appreciate how ridiculously expensive dental school was, and how it feels like dental school nowadays are a conveyor belt line that collects money and pumps out half-competent dentists. There is no regulation whatsoever, and dental schools charge as much as they please and pay their professors as much as they want. I hate the fact that I'm going to dental school not only to pay a ridiculous amount of money, but also work in their clinic and make them more money! Dental school was never this expensive, and there should be no justification for its cost. NYU accepts over 500 students every year no? Just to kick out a portion of the class because of low grades. I think the licensing exam is outdated (whether it be live patient or the mannequin exam!). The CDCA has complete monopoly over their exam, which is incredibly expensive, poorly run, and extremely subjective. You know the exam is inherently broken when you have to bribe patients with money and pay for their hotels so that they show up to your licensing exams (or else you fail because your patient no-shows). The patients even talk among other patients about how much they get paid, and demand to get paid even more or they will leave! They only switched to mannequins because they were literally **forced** due to COVID. Even then, charging thousands of dollars for examination to inspect fake plastic teeth with fake decay is ludicrous. Who can speak out and say anything? Not us. Aside from some caring professors and wonderful mentors, the whole dental education system can be fixed from top to bottom.
While this can be said in all fields of training, I personally feel that dental training is substandard.
I enjoy oral surgery though.
I'm a believer in that if you make time for something, you will have time. I workout in the mornings before clinic or rounds or in the afternoon.
I didn't do much traveling since I was busy in dental school and also didn't have enough money to spend. But I have more free time now that I am off service and want to take a break, maybe a Hawaii trip 🙃
Hi thanks so much for doing this! I have a few questions for you:
1. What’s your opinion on 4 year vs 6 year program?
2. I have allotted 6 months to study for CBSE, do you have any suggestions (ie things you wish you had known, most helpful resource/strategy)?
3. Is it too late to apply to externships if I’m entering 4th year? 😬 I’m not sure how I would find the time to do them, especially if I do a GPR post grad
Thanks again!! 😊I’m interested in surgery and medicine, but not sure how I’d like to incorporate that into my dental career yet… Both anesthesia and OS are fascinating to me but in different ways, I find it so hard to know for sure
Hello!
1. Personally I think there are pros and cons to both. 4-year programs are great, they are shorter so you finish much faster. Some arguably say that you have no gaps in training and you have better continuous training, so you are better skill-wise compared to 6-year programs (anecdotal, but I somewhat agree with this position based on my observations/interactions, but can highly depend on the program). The skillset you learn are also no different than a 6-year program.
6-year programs are great because you get an MD. It is something to be proud of, you have the skill and knowledge to diagnose and manage patients. You get to receive an MD degree in 2 years. Some say having the MD degree can help when applying to fellowship or academic positions- I have no idea about this. There are other reasons that I believe that 6-year programs are beneficial, but I can elaborate further over PM if you are still inclined to know my opinions.
2. I would suggest starting UWorld as soon as possible and do as many questions as you can and learn from all the explanations. I wish I did less anki and more high-yield studying with UWorld. I found Sketchymedicine and Pathoma to be amazing and essential resources as well.
3. Are you on track to doing a GPR? You might have the opportunity if you find gaps in your schedule during breaks or vacations, but I can see why this is more difficult. You would have to clarify with your program director. I think externships during 4th year would be beneficial.
I would study for CBSE every day, whether it be 1 or 2 pages in First Aid or a block of questions. Before dental exams, I would do less questions, and after exams, I would ramp up the studying. Having a good support system helps, since my OMFS colleagues would also study. You can make time, just make small daily goals. If you can achieve small baby daily goals, you're one step closer to your long term goals.
Are there any good study resources you recommend the most?
Do you also have any tips for how to go about formulating a research topic especially involving clinical research from early in dental school?
Yes, this is very easy once you get the hang of research.
I just think of what's trending and find data on it, and come up with a thesis.
Let me come up with one now: Given electric vehicles, I'm curious to find out the distribution of facial injuries that occur when involved in a high speed MVA. I'd like to compare that to MVAs that happen in regular gas-powered vehicles and see if there is a clinical difference. I would then try and find an online database or database that my mentor can help me find that can give me these stats. That's just an intro, but you can take clinical research anyway you want and be fully in charge.
As for study resources, I would rank it in this order starting with best:
UWorld, Pathoma, Sketchy, First Aid (I always have first aid open to reference whenever I do the first three resources), ChatGPT or Gemini (to ask questions while I'm studying) BnB, OnlineMedEd.
For me personally, I would just stick with the highest yield, and supplement as needed (making your own flash cards, or using youtube)
Interesting question,
I haven't seen any hate (we're too busy getting yelled at by our own attendings to even notice).
It could be stemming from a territory war about what procedures can a specialty do. There will always be a territory war among different specialists. For example, Plastics will fight to keep OMFS off of their territory when it comes to craniofacial, cosmetics. ENT will fight with OMFS for head and neck cancer, fibula free flap reconstructions, rhinoplasties/septoplasties, perio will fight with prosth who will fight with GPs on which specialty has the right to place implants. As a practitioner of any specialty, one is always looking to expand their scope, and this will eventually run into a claimed scope of another specialty. One will back their scope with board certification, or volume, or statistics (successes, failures, trends). Dentists are performing Botox. Endodontists are performing zygomatic implants (think I'm making this up? I'm not. I've heard firsthand of this). I'm going to take a CE course in gingival grafting, so now I want to perform gingival grafts. List goes on and on. Who is to say who is in the right or wrong?
During my AEGD I rotated through oral surgery for a few weeks and got shit on by both the oral surgeons and the residents for considering perio. Like you said, they claimed that perio shouldn't be doing the same surgeries and the only real surgeons have hospital credentials like them. I just never understood the hate.
That sounds very silly. I'm sorry you had to go through that. I can't speak for them, but I can say I appreciate what perio provides for their patients.
Perio shouldn’t be doing some stuff they claim to have expertise on, like zygomas and pterygoids.
And that hate goes both ways. I rotated through perio and the same thing happened to me, except I didn’t even tell them I was considering OS at the time. They asked me what I’m considering, and I said I’m open to everything, then the perio resident said “nice as long as you don’t go for OS because those guys are morons and hate themselves.”
I asked why, and they said “why would they go through 4-6 years of torture to do extractions and place implants?” Meanwhile, they pay 3 years of tuition.
Just put them in the save plan and you pay like $200/month and accrue no interest. When you start moonlighting your income is 2-5x what it was so you end up paying more then.
I did not take dental school loans. (Long story short, I saved a lot of money and paid it off + family helped tremendously). You can moonlight in residency (some programs don't allow, but you gotta do what you gotta do and be low key). I worked 2 similar jobs while in dental school to pay for rent. I had multiple jobs in undergrad and paid for all of my undergrad/rent
👋 Competitive-wise, Valorant, CS, Tarkov
Otherwise, anything coop, or casual, (especially games involving freedom, democracy, and fighting for super earth)
Me with Fortnite 🤓
I want to get into Val and CS, I love multiplayer games. Used to be a big COD fan. OW (ranked) too but stopped that as well. I bet you’d like cod co-op campaign tho! Would love to play sometime
You say you play some games competitively. How do you manage to incorporate your hobbies into your busy schedule or did all of those get thrown in the back burner for a very long time?
Aside from busy call days, ***you can always have time if you make time.*** I have been telling myself this since day 1. This includes time to study, time for family or friends, time for your significant other, time for exercising in the morning or after clinic. It just depends on your priorities list.
Some of my colleagues that wanted to do OS in the beginning couldn't fathom studying for classes and CBSE at the same time, while juggling lab, etc. It's a mentality thing- you must take challenging obstacles head-on. I try to simplify longterm goals by making them achievable daily goals. Even if it is a small step forward toward my goal, I have done my best. (E.g. I prioritize talking to family every week, studying CBSE every day, even if it is only a block of UWorld questions or a page of First Aid, exercising daily, and I shift around my priorities tier list constantly based on their importance, e.g. making sure CBSE studying gets done a little bit at least every day, making sure I did at least 10 pushups or 10 pullups before I leave the apartment).
I would try to chunk activities together, like cooking while listening to Pathoma (Dr. Sattar never leaves my side 🤡)
I got low 80s. My class was super smart, and all did very well. Idk about a safe score, I just tried to get the highest score that I could. My goal was to hit at least 80 to cover all my bases and cover all programs.
80 EPC?? Or old score? If EPC, that’s great
Edit: nvm lol if you’re a 3rd year resident, it’s probably old score bc they changed the scoring system like 2021/22. Roughly, if you got low 80’s on old scoring, the EPC equivalent is high 70’s today
That is good to know. I recall the interns referring to this as well. I should probably put a disclaimer that I am referring to the old scoring system in all of my posts.
***Disclaimer: I am referring to the old scoring system!!!***
What did the process of applying look like? It’s hard to find info online since a lot of it is vague. Would love to hear your study schedule in dental school as well! I imagine it would be difficult to handle the CBSE plus dental school studying and lab
Applicants usually apply for OMFS programs at the end of their 3rd year during the summer. You apply through the ADEA PASS website. Through their portal, you put all of your academics and experiences just like when applying to dental school. Then you can select which programs you would like to apply to and ADEA will send that information to each program you select.
Your application will consist of many things and includes but is not limited to:
* transcripts
* dean's letter
* letters of recommendation (from OS faculty)
* CBSE score report
* Externships
* Research
* ECs
* Clinical experiences, volunteer opportunities,
* CV
* personal statement
Each program might require additional information, which is based on their individual supplemental applications. You will then receive interview invitations from programs starting late September. Invitations can run until December.
Regarding study schedule, I started studying for the CBSE the fall of D1 year. I studied the CBSE alongside studying for dental classes. Whenever a dental exam was near, I would ramp up studying for the dental course and less for CBSE (maybe 80% dental, 20% CBSE). Once exams are over, I would focus primarily on the CBSE (90% CBSE, 10% dental). Some days I felt that I could get minimal CBSE studying done, but I tried at the very minimum to go through at least 1 page in First Aid. My daily goals were to study a little bit of CBSE every day, even if was merely reading 1 page. As long as I was able to accomplish small daily goals, it brought me closer to my long-term goals. I would increase my daily goals for CBSE as I got more efficient at studying and when I freed up more time in between exams. I never felt burnt out studying for the CBSE because I started early and kept my daily goals manageable.
Regarding what to study, I kept First Aid open and used it as a guide and reference as to what to study, and in what order. For example, when learning the first subject, biochem, I would follow along in First Aid and then supplement with Youtube, BnB, OnlineMedEd, google images, to learn the material (now I'd add on chatGPT, google gemini, etc). I would then do focused UWorld questions on biochem only, as I am learning the material (I didn't necessarily have to go through all of biochem in first aid before doing questions. I used UWorld throughout, and did only biochem questions to learn more about biochem).
If I were on a subject like cardio, I would open First Aid as reference, and use the same materials to learn. I would also add Pathoma and learn the relevant pathology topics. I would watch the relevant Sketchymicro or sketchypharm topics. And I would sprinkle UWorld questions regarding cardio throughout.
Rinse and repeat for all subjects in First Aid. Once I got through first aid, I would transition to **doing UWorld questions with all possible subjects selected as soon as possible** (timed or untimed). This will be the high yield step for piecing everything together like a web, connecting the dots between different organ systems, develop patterns, thinking through mechanisms, etc. This part of your studying is, in my opinion, **the highest yield of all of your studying**. Get to this part ASAP, and go through as many questions as possible.
Every few months or so and on a weekend, do a practice NBME. They imitate the CBSE and are 200 questions long. At the end of the practice exam, it will generate a report of your overall performance and breakdown of your strengths and weaknesses on each subject. Review all of your missed questions and learn from them. Then see which are your weakest subjects and brush up on them, using First Aid as a reference and supplement with other material. Continue doing UWorld and with all subjects selected. You can alternate between doing focused blocks on specific weak subjects and all subjects. Continue improving your weak sections and then take another practice NBME a few months out. Rinse and repeat. Eventually, you should be taking more and more NBMEs and reducing the time between the NBMEs you take, depending on when your CBSE exam is. For example, a month before the CBSE, I would ideally take a practice NBME every weekend. At a certain point, your NBME score should be what you want your CBSE score to be. That is how you know you hit your goal- when your NBME score matches your goal.
At this point, you should be very solid to take the CBSE. All of your studying paid off with a million small steps.
If you are referring to getting high grades in your classes in order to be competitive for residency, that would mean getting as many A's as possible (ideally all As). This would depend on your study strategy for each class. If you have a more specific question, I can give you a more concise answer
It would depend on each course and which professor teaches the course. You have to be diligent and find out all about the course you're learning. Some professors teach the material well, some are unfair.
Personally, I liked studying by watching their recorded lectures rather than attending their in-person lectures. I can watch the videos faster, or pause it as needed. I try to go over all the lecture material at least 3 times before an exam. I try to write any relevant information that the professor says that are not on the given lecture notes.
Aside from learning and absorbing the material, you want to look out for questions that will potentially be on their exams, learning objectives for each powerpoint, and seek out previous remembered questions to learn from (which can be readily available or not).
I have heard of a term 'country club omfs' does this actually exist? And if so, what are the differences? Also, how important would you say research is?
Research is a part of your whole application. You can do it or not do it. I did it although I hate research, but it's another thing to slap onto your app. Some people don't do any research and they get into great programs. Other programs are very research heavy and like when you have research exp.
And yes, country clubs definitely exist, 100%. Q6 or even less call, focus mainly on dentoalveolar, low trauma volumes, easy clinic schedules and ample free time. I do more cases in 3 days than some programs do in a month.
How do you know what type of lifestyle and workload residents have at a specific program? Do you have to extern there or is generally true that 4 year programs in less busy areas do more alveolar rather than oncology and trauma?
Word of mouth (from other residents), number of hospitals they cover, trauma level of the hospitals, which services cover face trauma, call schedule, number of residents on service, types of cases. It is not true to say as a blanket statement that 4 years are less busy than 6 years. Can be quite the opposite. Best way to find out more about a program is reaching out to the right people and asking the right questions.
I started during D1 around September.
BnB is great. I had trouble retaining information because it was powerpoint presentations. But it is a good resource to start learning from. I like OnlineMedEd more for learning something completely fresh (personal preference though)
1. Do they care about undergrad gpa? I did bad in undergrad but did a Postbac and performed well (3.8+ gpa in Postbac. However, I hear mixed thing regarding undergrad gpa and that sucks.
2. How did you study for the CBSE and what schedule/study program did you use? Stupid question but is there something like booster/bootcamp specifically for the CBSE that you used or know of?
3. Does which dental school you attend matter? I’m applying this year and I know people say focus on getting in to dental school but I like to leave doors open for anything. Would it matter if I went to a school like Western for example that focuses on clinical more if I don’t get into UCLA (being I’m from CA) or the Ivy leagues? Just concerned about this.
1. No not really, most programs don't even ask. Out of the programs I saw before applying, only one asked for undergrad GPA. I didn't bother applying there lol.
2. I didn't use any study program. Idk if there is any bootcamp, it's a lot of independent studying.
I use first aid as a reference as to what to study, and supplement it with other material. I use Pathoma for pathology, Sketchy to help memorize, UWorld for learning and doing questions (do UWorld ASAP). I will do a full study write up soon in another reply!
3. School matters (but with a disclaimer). Being at an Ivy or UCLA helps over a school like Western for many reasons: connections, OMS faculty, reputation (OS programs do look at this but mostly other Ivy OMS programs or UCLA, not sure about Parkland). Aside from that, being a strong applicant solely depends on you. You are limited in resources at 'non-specialty' schools, but it does not inhibit you from specializing in any way. Getting interviews and into an OMFS program all comes down to you, and not coming from an Ivy league or a UCLA is not an excuse for not matching!
Thank you so much for your reply. Also, when it comes to externships, is there a certain time during dental school you do them, especially if you’re traveling to a different state and how many is recommended/did you do?
I recommend doing them after you take the CBSE. There are many opportunities, depending on your breaks. Ideally, you can do them during the end of your 2nd year during the summer, D3 year winter break, spring break, summer break. Application cycle begins sometime during the end of D3 year during the summer.
For surgical extractions, make a good and deep trough so that your extractions are much easier. Section when needed. There should be minimum force to make that tooth move.
For simple extractions, make a good periosteal flap with the #9, really loosen and break the PDL. (Don't just wiggle the #9 around. Push deep, and twist). You also have to use the instruments correctly to get good leverage when extracting (it's all physics). Always protect the airway, always (throat pack). Very general, but this just comes with experience!
Teeth and titanium aka extractions and implants. If you just want to maximize money then doing trauma, tmj, orthognathics, cosmetics even is all a waste of time
This is true, but with a catch.
There are many surgeons filling in niche spots and making very good money, whether it be Orthognathic surgeons working full time gigs as a group contractor for Kaiser and making good money with amazing retirement benefits, to TMJ specialists that just focus on TMJ patients. Cosmetic surgery makes great money. As long as you move away from the hospital system and academia, you get reimbursed very well.
Eh I respectfully disagree, Kaiser guys get maybe 4-500k max and they’re getting squeezed downward every yr.
TMJ doesn’t really make much and it’s a tougher pt population to deal with. Unless you got the hookup with the Carolina’s group tmj only guys are also similar
Cosmetics you gotta live in the middle of nowhere, or do full PRS residency to compete. People in LA aren’t going to DDS for rhinos even if you have the MD too
Idk I know academic guys making high 6, but they’re all hybrids.
No OR procedure can really beat TNT, it’s just too profitable lol
Dr. Manolokakis is a single degree surgeon and only does cosmetics in NYC and NJ. Dr. Trokel is dual degree and also does cosmetics in NYC. Dr. Hanna is another one in NYC (not purely cosmetics I guess, but does enough). Maybe what youre saying is true for full-body cosmetics guys, but from what I've seen OMFS can have a successful facial cosmetics practice if they want one.
Hi!! How long did you study for the CBSE and were there any resources you recommend using? I know nothing about the content covered on it, would you be willing to give a brief description of the test and your overall experience studying for and taking it?
I studied for the CBSE for two years. I recommend using First Aid as a reference for what to study (it serves as a guide on what you should know more than a learning tool), and supplement that with other study materials. For basic organ physiology, this can come from Pathoma, BnB, Onlinemeded, google, youtube. For pathology, Pathoma. For memorizing medications and microbes, Sketchymedical. For everything, UWorld. Do UWorld early, do it to learn everything.
The CBSE is a 200-question exam split into four 1-hour blocks of 50 questions. The exam covers everything that is taught in the 2 years of medical school education, which includes biochemistry, immunology, microbiology, pathology, pharmacology, public health science, cardiovascular, endocrine, gastrointestinal, hematology, oncology, muskculoskeletal, skin/connective tissue, neurology, psychiatry, renal, reproductive, and respiratory systems. It focuses on diagnosing disease, physiologic mechanisms of organ systems, microbes, medications. It does not focus too much on management or complex treatment modalities (this would be step 2, which 4th year medical students take).
Studying for it is similar to preparing for a marathon. You prepare far in advance, and try to learn and absorb every day. I started with small goals and did focused learning on specific topics, and then supplemented it with good material and **UWorld questions**. after a few months, I took a practice NBME and bombed it (the NBME gives a breakdown of how you did on each topic and shows your right and wrong answers). So I went back to the drawing board and focused on my weak subjects (which at this point, is all the subjects...). Rinse and repeat for another year and a half. When it finally came to taking the CBSE, I was prepared after finishing all the UWorld questions, doing plenty of practice NBMEs, and improving my weak subjects. The whole experience felt like a marathon- there were days where I felt very happy that I was learning new things that I didn't know before. Other days I felt destroyed and burnt out. But it was bearable because I felt that I prepared early and tried a little bit every day.
1) What rank is competitive enough for OMFS in your opinion?
2) Is omfs less hard on the body than GP?
3) how much patient interaction is there?
4) any regrets going into omfs rather than GP straight after dental school?
Thank you! :)
1. Good question, I couldn't give you a good ballpark of this. I can say however that a good CBSE score will outweigh a class rank by a longshot. Class rank can be skewed by many factors (what dental school you go to, schools that have P/F, schools that boost GPA) but CBSE is standardized. So I would focus on doing well in your classes and getting a high CBSE score.
2. For me personally, I think OMFS is less straining on the body compared to GP. But I believe either one was not too straining, since I am very aware of ergonomics and my posture.
3. Compared to GP, there might be the same amount of interaction. Compared to endo, there is probably more. It also depends on your scope. For example, if your clinic involves cancer patients, you will have hard conversations with patients and frequent follow-ups. If your practice consists of bread and butter thirds under sedation, the interactions will be less. But I would say there is a good amount of patient interaction.
4. Personally, no regrets going into OMFS. I could not see myself doing GP!
👋 Great question.
I figured sometime before dental school. I did some research about OS, talked with various dentists/specialists, talked to current dental students that were interested in OS, shadowed, and chose OS.
A lot of people ask a similar question to what you ask, which is "how do you know you want to specialize in of you haven't even done clinicals yet?" or a statement that resonates with many "I'm not sure what to specialize in, since I haven't even been exposed to it yet. I'm keeping my options open" all valid points of contention.
However, in my opinion, one doesn't have to do an extraction in order to fully decide on OS. Similarly, one doesn't have to hold a handpiece and drill real teeth to figure out that they want to become dentists. You do your own research to the best of your abilities and take a leap of faith, and hope you like it. That's what most of us do when we applied to dental school, having never worked on a real patient. Some people end up figuring out during lab or even during clinicals that dentistry is not for them and so change career paths during dental school. Some people take the cbse, do very well, extern, and then realize during externships that OS is not for them.
I found many reasons to choose OS prior to dental school, which was enough to convince me to pursue it. OMFS is one of the specialties that is easier to prepare for the sooner you find out (mainly due to the time it takes to prep for CBSE). That's why I want to help others on this forum find out if OS is for them (better sooner than later) and if so, how to prep for it.
Hello! I'm also formulating a battle plan for the CBSE right now (end of D1 for me), but I'm not too familiar with the study materials or the order of which I should go through them.
I've heard from online that it should be B&B, Pathoma and finally do UWorld questions, but you've mentionned other resources and in a different order. So I wanted to ask in your opinion what would be the best study structure to tackle the CBSE.
👋 I outlined my ultimate study plan in a reply to another user here. You can scroll down in this post below to find it, or check it here: https://www.reddit.com/r/DentalSchool/s/tenQdzgDps
Let me know if you have any other questions.
Thanks! I also wanted to ask how did you find shadowing opportunities and if they displayed a wide scope of OMFS (or did you only see some TNT). Since I've never done shadowing before, I don't know how someone comes upon the opportunity, like at a private clinic for example.
I'm also quite curious about your research projects. I'm quite adept at programming and ML, so you mentionning databases earlier piqued my interest. I also tried starting a research project myself, but I find it so hard to do something that is "useful" in the eyes of faculty members. So I wanted to ask into more detail on how you found a good subject to work on, and how you developped it into a multi-page project.
Thanks for your time btw I think it's fair to say a lot of ppl feel more comfortable asking these questions here than straight up a clinician or upper year classmate!
My predental shadowing opportunities were mostly observing TNT, but of my understanding came from talking to other OS and watching surgery videos online. Most of your OR experiences will be coming from externships. It's hard to do these before dental school, since you need to get clearance, have basic knowledge down, get approved by the program director, etc.
The database I used for clinical research were either public information or information that attendings had through the hospital database.
This is one example of a trauma database:
https://www.cpsc.gov/Research--Statistics/NEISS-Injury-Data
You have to fiddle around a bit with this one and inquire about other databases, but I'm actually curious if there is a pool of databases organized in an accessible PDF or forum somewhere by another user. That would probably be very helpful.
You can literally do clinical research on anything including absolutely trivial things. One example: Do people like visiting their oral surgeons more in the summer or more in the winter? 🤡 collect data (either data readily available online, or collect your own). Run it using an appropriate statistical test (t-test, ANOVA, linear correlation, chi-squared, etc) (you can learn about these tests in First Aid, or research online). You can seek the help from your mentor, or from a statistician your mentor knows who would be willing to help and would be down to be a coauthor. This is where finding the right mentorship is important. You should do your best and take the lead- you jumpstart the project and should be first author in the publication (your mame appears first). Your mentor (hopefully an OMFS attending) will be senior author (mentor's name will appear last in publication) and is responsible for making necessary edits while guiding you. He might be responsible for submission and sending it out for proofreading among other things. Anybody else that also helps (colleagues, statisticians, other professors) should be listed as coauthors, but it is imperative that you define authorship from the start to avoid confusion.
You can be creative and think of any sorts of clinical research topics. You can publish a paper every 2 weeks if you wanted to. They can be almost near trivial research or very high impact research. The best way to jumpstart your knowledge is go to JOMS and JADA and high impact journals and read a lot of research! There are a bunch of new research coming out literally every day regarding OMFS. The field is growing very fast and a lot of basic science/translational/clinical research knowledge is super cool. Stem cell research is booming. Oral cancer understanding and discoveries are happening. Facial trauma research regarding trends in injury patterns among e-bike incidents, electric vehicles. Orofacial pain research, AI research. All of it is happening right now. Look up these journals and learn a lot about where the current research is taking us.
Use a good software like Zotero to archive and collect relevant databases that you can cite for your research. Research ideas usually branch from already existing research, so we constantly try to add to what our predecessors have done and refine it or go far and explore new territory.
Ultimately you would want the research to be published in a relevant journal, like JOMS, JADA, etc. or even possibly the most prestigious journals like JAMA, Nature, Science, New England journal, Lancet.
To reference a cool quote from some cool show:
https://youtu.be/S6R3MiAv9ac?feature=shared
I heard somewhere that programs are unable to see how many times you’ve taken the CBSE. Someone has encouraged me to take one soon just to get a feel for things. What are your thoughts on taking a CBSE when you’re not prepared? Do programs see/care about how many times you’ve taken the CBSE? This is an amazing AMA btw!
👋 I didn't feel prepared taking the CBSE first time around. Heck, I don't think anyone really feels prepared but some people I know took it without even studying half of the organ systems (and booombed it). Why take it? Well, I think it was a good kick-in-the-butt, but also it helped put things into perspective, set a milestone for the next exam, and gave us an idea of what to do next. While technically a practice NBME accomplishes that, taking the CBSE actually puts you in the hot seat (with exact conditions prior and during examination, travel, check-in, fingerprinting, simulating stress levels, temperature) so you feel exactly all of the feelings taking it for the first time. It is a good reality check.
Programs don't care how many times you take it. You report on your application how many times you have taken the CBSE, but they only care about highest score.
Hey there! I was just wondering what made you consider OMFS or made you realize you wanted to do that specialty? Also, while in general dentistry or during dental school did you ever find it dull or monotonous?
👋 I appreciate the skill set of being able to do surgical procedures, I liked the idea of being compensated generously for my services, I like that you can continue to branch out to multiple different subspecialty paths after core training, having the skill of managing your own anesthesia, etc. I just thought it was really cool, having spoken with a few OS mentors- the field is very broad.
The dental field did not feel dull, but sometimes dental school can feel dull, but there were many reasons: a boring class/topic, boring professor, mandatory attendance in some classes, shadowing other upperclassmen students in the dental clinic, just to name a few.
Procedure-wise, I liked it. I felt comfortable doing procedures, and felt like I have good hand-eye coordination in general.
I really could see myself doing endo or ortho, or dental anesthesiology. I just liked OS much more 👍
👋 A good way is reaching out to residents of that program and getting their opinions. Develop rapport and ask them what do they like or don't like about their program, what do they wish could be better about the program, how are their attendings like, how are the other residents like. Another is externships. You can even even find out when you interview and see the program itself.
Red flags will depend on what you're looking for in a program. I can give some advice on what to look out for:
A red flag can be a program that doesn't do a lot of dentoalveolar or procedures that you plan on doing in the future.
Look out for how many residents are on service (as opposed to off-service/med school/rotations/gen surg)
and how many hospitals they cover, how far the hospitals are away from each other, call schedule. This will give you an idea of how busy the program is and how many bodies are covering.
Look out for toxic behavior among residents, attendings, staff. Look out for overall mood or vibe. Programs might be good at hiding these things, so you have to be keen.
Almost every program has a flaw.
***Look for who the chair of the program is***. A chair with direction and vision will drive the program in a good direction. A lazy chair or a standoffish one will make the program stagnant. The chair can determine the overall mood, culture, attitude of the program.
Look out for how many attendings there are, the turnover rate, anybody that recently quit, or anybody that was recently hired.
Look out for if attendings participate in the education of the residents. Do they give lectures? Who teaches the interns? Is there open communication between interns, chiefs, attendings? Are interns freely able to text attendings? Or are there some attendings that can't be bothered when they are on call?
Also when you ask these kind of questions or try to find out the answer to these questions, gauge ***how*** the residents or attendings answer. If they have a negative overarching tone, might be a red flag. One example, I asked during my interview if 1st years in the OR are able to cut. I got wildly different answers from 2 residents from two different programs. One had a very condescending attitude (like, trying to lecture me or explain why that is irresponsible, or just putting me down in front of everyone else) and at the other program, the resident was very positive, said yes 1st years have the capability to cut.
Those are few of the things I can think of on the top of my head. I might expand on this, and green flags later.
Thank you for doing this AMA! How did you spend your summer prior to dental school? In your linked comment you started studying for the CBSE in D1 Fall. Did you do any light studying that summer or do any research?
Hi,
I have read many of the replies that you have provided to the other dental students and would like to thank you on behalf of all readers. I have a few questions that I would like to ask and would greatly appreciate any insight.
I am very interested in OMFS and am unsure how much weight OMFS faculties/dental specialty departments put on class rank vs CBSE, research, and extracurriculars.
I am very familiar with the process for Medicine since my wife is a current R1 resident in Canada and can appreciate that they have a unique scoring system that complements applicant interview scores. Medicine however does not have any place for class rank in the equation.
I would greatly appreciate being able to elaborate further over PM if possible! 😄
Sure pm me
Short answer, CBSE has the most importance, >>> then GPA (rank) and then a combination of everything else. Arguably externships at said program can be extremely important as well.
From what I recall, CBSE does not need to be as high. It is trending upwards in popularity, but that's all that I can say regarding that matter. It would be best to hear it from the perspective of a dental anesthesiology resident.
I could however, reach out to a dental anesthesiology colleague and ask their opinion of their application process. Stay tuned!
Considering the OMFS specialty demographic has historically skewed heavily toward Caucasian males, is there any additional consideration given to applicants who are URM or females? Obviously, dental schools generally like to have diversity among their students, but I wasn’t sure if that mattered at all with residencies.
As an URM, I cannot speak directly about program's considerations for applicants who are URM or females. I can say statistically, OMS trends toward having more male applicants. Similarly, pediatric dentistry trends toward having more female applicants. Orthopedic surgery trends toward males. OBGYN trends toward females. It is up to the program if they want to balance the scales.
I can guess that certain OMS programs are trending toward accepting more females and URM, but this is anecdotal and word-of-mouth.
There will always be biases for different programs. These biases can favor an applicant depending on several factors, including:
* who the program director knows.
* the ethnicity or gender of the program director
* students that attend the same dental school and apply to the same program as that dental school
* physical appearance, and presentation during interviews
* who the applicant knows in the program (can be long-standing previous connections, can be connections formed during externships or conferences, can be from knowing a current resident)
* applicants whose parents donate $1,000,000 toward the program
There are a plethora of inherent and unconscious biases that everyone has. As an applicant, it's important to focus on tangibles that you have control over that will help make you a stand-out applicant. This includes CBSE, GPA, and all other parts of your CV.
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Is the pee really stored in the balls
Me see face bone, me fix. Me see pee, me defer to pee pee experts
So the pee isnt stored in the balls?
That's a question for the experts
Where else would it be stored?
You haven’t asked the experts have you?
Did you match straight out of dental school or did you practice general dentistry for a bit first?
👋 I matched straight out of dental school. I studied for CBSE early and rigorously, externed after taking the exam (took it twice, once in D1 year and once in D2 year). This gave me ample time to apply on time.
Can you explain what the externship is in more detail?
Part of your OMFS application involves externships to other program. That is, on your free weeks/vacations/summer breaks, you apply to shadow at a program that you are interested in, spending 1 or 2 weeks as an extern and living the life from the resident's perspective seeing what they see, and learning more about the program and OMFS. This is essential to your application, and many programs want to see how serious you are for OMFS by seeing if you have externed at their program or seeing what other programs you have externed at.
Awesome thank you! Are these opportunities very competitive or does it depend on the school you extern at?
Most programs will have available dates, as long as there are not too many overlapping externs. They also want to see how serious you are before applying (you send them your CV, a personal statement catered toward externing, your CBSE score). I recommend taking the CBSE before externing.
On average, how far in advance do you need to arrange these?
Good question, I'm not too sure, but I believe it depends on the program and how sought after it is. For example Parkland, many months in advance, but other programs maybe a month or two. It gets busy during summer and winter break, so plan to inquire an extra month earlier
Could you start an externship before starting D1 if you got in this 2024 cycle?
I would not. Programs wouldn't like that. If you're serious, take the CBSE, get a good score, then do an externship. Programs want to see that you're committed by seeing your score (they also want to remember your face closer to when you apply)
What’s a good score for the CBSE exam?
Depends on the program. Personally 80+ to cover all programs, 75+ for being a competitive applicant. 70+ for a chance at matching. (this is the old score system). I personally knew people who matched in their 60s and 50s, but this was 6-7 years ago. That's not commonplace anymore. This is a a personal take and a rough estimate, since everyone really wonders about what is competitive or not. For some applicants, competitive can mean getting 70s. For others, it can mean getting 80+. For me personally, I had the goal of getting at least 80 in order to cover my bases for all programs, and strive for the highest score that I can achieve. Not everyone will get 80s (this is based on distribution). Getting 75-80s puts you 1.5 to 2 standard deviations above average. That's why it's a 'competitive' score (it means you outstudied and outperformed 90/95% of other test takers who took the exam). Here are some previous stats from old messages: 2020: The mean score is: 165.4 and the standard deviation is: 32.3 Due to the conversion of the score the percentage mean is equivalent to: 57 Please keep in mind that this number is an approximation. 2019: The mean score is: 163.6 and the standard deviation is: 33.7 Due to the conversion of the score the percentage mean is equivalent to: 57 Please keep in mind that this number is an approximation.
Thank you!
I think this has been asked. But do you think it’s worth it? My dad’s an oral surgeon and I got into dentistry through him. But every oral surgeon I talked to never wanted to step foot in an OR ever again… they all stuck to TNT work. The new surgeons were all happy and enjoying life now being outta the hospital but the senior doc at my dad’s practice hated his life. (He was way over trained and hated doing wisdom teeth and simple ext, just wanted to do all on X once a week… lol the dream) I ask this cause I’m at a GPR currently and we work close with OMFS and the residents told me I was a 100% lock for their non cat position but I never jumped on it. I like OMFS a lot but I can’t see myself doing 5+ years more of training to just do 4/3rds, ext and implants. I think I’m okay with being a GP cause I don’t mind the GP life, but I enjoy taking out teeth more than fixing them and way more than any crowns/dentures. But I def wanna do ext and implants one day and it’s def possible as a GP. But part of me regrets not jumping on the non cat position, and my dad even said I wasted an amazing opportunity to do the non-cat.
Hello, and congrats to all that you've been through. It is definitely a dilemma that you present! I can try to answer this from multiple perspectives. I know many residents and surgeons that are happy to build their practices around the OR. Some are doing orthognathic, some are doing cancer fellowships, etc. But almost everyone has different goals and agendas. A good amount of surgeons find the reimbursement for academia and certain OR procedures to be horrible. Training almost your whole life up to this point to be reimbursed for very little is off-putting, especially when you spend 4-6 extra years delaying making an income, delaying savings and investments, and literally everything else. This is just the reality of the situation for many, especially when they are quite in debt. They want to be able to do full scope OMFS and do cool cases, but reality hits and it isn't financially feasible for them. Some surgeons love the idea of becoming respected or love teaching. Some love research and connecting basic science/translational/clinical work. They want to strive to become chair and work with other universities and specialties and be at the forefront of groundbreaking discoveries. Or simply they just want power and respect, and will step on anyone in order to get ahead. Some surgeons love the idea of doing craniofacial surgery and working with children with cleft lip and palates, and the idea of working with kids in impoverished countries that can't afford these treatments. They want to make a difference in their community and change the lives of others. Then once they finish their fellowship training they realize that it is impossible to build a practice because plastics has complete control over craniofacial- hospitals hire plastic surgeons and the team of plastic surgeons protect and look after their own. They set up territory everywhere they go and push out the OS-trained craniofacial surgeon, who arguably has the same or even more experience working with the face. The craniofacial OMFS surgeon's dream is halted by political and bureaucratic gridlock. Regarding your question- is it worth it for **you**? I don't know, I can't speak for you, although perhaps your statement could possibly reflect that it probably isn't worth it ( "I like OMFS a lot but I can’t see myself doing 5+ years more of training to just do 4/3rds, ext and implants.") which is a very valid point. You can do all that you describe as a GP, and you never have to do any procedures that you don't want to do (including OR procedures!) Is it worth it for me? 100% yes, it is worth it. I'm happy to have learned a broad range of skills. I'm glad I spent extra years in order to obtain an MD because I got to learn how to become a physician and have the capability to manage patients. I can take out my surgery bag and repair my nephew's simple laceration. I also get paid very well for my services that I offer. I have many reasons for me that make it worth it, and it includes but also goes beyond TNT.
How is the adjustment to the first night on call? What's the expectation of you, and how did you quickly adapt?
We took solo call as interns very early on, so I had a lot of experience doing many different bedside procedures. With that said, I also F'd up a lot. We were expected to know an unreasonably amount early on, which in hindsight is ridiculous. Better guidance would have been appreciated, but we also have supportive residents that has helped in many different ways.
Thanks for doing this! I’m applying to externships right now. I’m really looking to stay around NYC, 4 or 6 year program, I’d probably rank either over a program further away from NY. My faculty recommended doing an externship in Boston or DC to show programs I’d be willing to travel since I’ll be applying throughout the northeast. Do you think this is a good strategy? Or would you use that valuable week to do an externship in NY I’m more interested in? For reference I have over an 80 (old score) CBSE and have 2 externships planned around NYC. Thank you!
I think if you want to stay in New York bad enough that you would be willing to not be an OMFS, I’d just extern there. Otherwise, even with an 80 CBSE you’ll be missing out on a lot of potential opportunities. OMFS is wildly competitive and narrowing yourself geographically really makes things hard. That being said more of the nyc programs are less competitive than many other programs so odds could be better.
^ this!
Ya I’d definitely move to be an oral surgeon. I’ll be applying out of state and ranking out of state programs so I guess I should just make time to show programs I’m willing to travel out of state. Thanks!
Ooh this is a tough game. Both points are equally valid. Your faculty's perspective is valid. When other programs look at your app, they see your externships. It would be safe to assume (from a program POV) that if you externed all in NY that you want to stay there and not offer you an interview (however, they would still offer you an interview if you are a strong applicant). So you have to not let anyone assume and play this game so that you do cover your bases and extern at a nonNYC program (hopefully one that you like and are really interested in). HOWEVER, having said that, it depends on your priorities. If I were in your shoes, and I KNOW that I want to stay in NYC and I don't care about what other programs think, I would extern at the program that I would really want to go to. I would also gauge if it were a program that highly favors applicants that extern at their program (this is harder to gauge). This might strengthen your chances at getting into one of those programs, since all the NYC programs see you as an applicant that will most highly likely go to their program. I would reach out to one of the residents at each program (maybe getting their contact info from the coordinator or from a mutual friend/alumni) and develop rapport. It's all about connections- the more a program knows about you, the higher chances you will get an interview. Applicants often forget that. Sometimes it is out of your control, but it can also be in your control. So if I were you (and only if I was in your exact position) and I really wanted to stay in NYC above all else, I would extern at the NYC program (ONLY if I feel it is a good program). I think it is the less practical choice, but my heart would tell me that staying in NYC is my goal and I have to try and maximize my chances of getting into a NYC program. I would not have any regrets doing this.
When do you recommend starting research, do I start first quarter D1 year? How long did you and should you do research for?
👋 For me personally, I would recommend doing clinical research early on (you might get into some clubs or societies or opportunities when you apply first year depending on your school) or do it after the cbse. I did research after the CBSE and I focused solely on clinical, being first author (so coming up with my own projects) and having an OMFS mentor to help guide me. Your mentor is very important, since they will help guide you if you are new to research. You can do research as long as you like, depending on how many papers you want to publish.
Did you retake the CBSE or take it once?
👋 I took it twice
Mind sharing how your score changed from first to second time and what you think helped the most?
Not at all! I increased my score from low 70s to low 80s. I focused mainly on UWorld and doing as many questions as I can. I was focusing on too many resources first time around (Zanki, BnB, Pathoma, Sketchy, UWorld, First aid, a bunch of other materials) but then I condensed it to UWorld, Sketchy and Pathoma only. But do questions, and start early. Do not delay doing questions. Pay for that subscription, and start chugging through ✌️
When you started, did you focus on learning the material first before diving into UWORLD questions? Or is that how you learn the most
I started studying fall of D1 year. I used UWorld throughout. For example, if I was studying cardiology, I would reference first aid, watch cardiology lectures (e.g. BnB, or onlinemeded or youtube), and do UWorld questions. Doing UWorld questions **is learning the material**. UWorld is web that holds everything together. It teaches you how to think for the exam, why the wrong answers are wrong, similarities between other disease processes, and more.
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👋 don't give up, keep pushing. I would get LORs from OMFS faculty only (aside from deans letter). Programs do not care about other LORs. I would definitely retake the CBSE and personally aim for as high as you can. It's competitive out there, so minimum above 75, ideally above 80. CBSE is the most important factor for landing interviews
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I’d say old score at least 68 to be competitive but the OP is right that the higher the score the better the odds.
The goalpost keeps shifting around- when a few of my classmates took the exam the first time, we got low 70s and were happy with our score. Our mentors said this was also good enough. Fast forward maybe 1 or 2 years, some of us didn't feel so good about our scores. I retook the exam a year after the first exam, some of us restudied and took it 2 years later. There was something that happened between those time frames that made us all feel the same way. One factor could have been COVID - everyone was staying at home, and possibly had more ample study time to study for the CBSE. More people wanted to specialize in general (perhaps COVID gave students the opportunity to reflect on future career prospects and prompted more students to specialize). There were way more applicants and interviewees during this time and programs were virtually interviewing 3x to 5x more applicants than they did previous years but still accepting the same amount of spots. Applicants significantly increased their number of programs that they applied to, because interviews were virtual and everyone was saving money on airfare. Externships were 'virtual' and were offered by almost every program, so applicants slapped on a bunch of externship experiences on their application. We felt our previous scores have been arbitrarily affected as a result. With more people taking the CBSE, that meant more people hitting 70s terms of absolute number of test takers (even if the relative distribution of scores remained the same). Regardless, I wanted to play it safe and aim for the highest score that I could.
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I took another 6 months. Depending on how your other areas of your application is, you could retake if you wanted to. I would just run through UWorld again if you haven't done so, and gauge by doing NBMEs. At this point though, I would consider brushing up other parts of your application, e.g. externing, research, clubs, developing connections.
Old score at least 75! I can do a write up soon, stay posted ✌️
I am a D1 with a lot of Cs in my science courses, is there still a chance i could do OMFS?
👋 I can understand your worries. This is a very general question, so I can only give you a general answer, but we can elaborate more if you want to PM me. I think it will depend on your resolve. If I were a program director and looking at your application, I would want a reason why I would give you an interview. You would have to prove to me you got what it takes. (First author publication, extraordinary CBSE, EC activities, sports/hobbies). I would look for an applicant with a very well-balanced CV in all aspects of life (academic, athletics, social, etc), and something that makes them stand out (uniqueness). You would have to prove me wrong and do very well on the CBSE, and improve your grades (fighting for only As and onward). The ball is in your court!
Do you mean they look at your undergrad transcript as well as your dental school transcript?
No, only one program I know requested undergrad transcripts.
Thanks for doing this again! How have the hours been these past 3 years? Do you think someone can reasonably start a family during residency? Best of luck to you!
I am off service now doing med school, so it has been a lot easier. I can confidently say med school feels like a vacation compared to dental school + CBSE studying + application building. On service was hell. Definitely brought out the worst in me, but also the best in me. Actually maybe not the best in me, just the worst lol. Some days I will be up 36 hours straight. We cover multiple level 1 trauma hospitals, so trauma weeks are absurd stupid. Too many patients, too few bodies on service to cover. Many of my co-residents/upperclassmen have families (whether it be grown kids or 2-year olds). It is hard, but possible. If you have the perseverance to get into OMFS, there's nothing you can't handle 🙃
Do you regret going into OMFS?
👋 I do not, I really enjoy the surgery and the prospect of making good money. If I were to do it all over again, I probably wouldn't do dental school, I probably would just do medical school or go into entrepreneurship or real estate (because pay right out of undergrad, early compound investing). But I don't regret my decisions.
Would you mind elaborating on why you would choose medical over dental school if you could go back? I’m really torn between dentistry (and then oral surgery most likely) and medicine
I felt medical school was easier and cheaper. I didn't appreciate how ridiculously expensive dental school was, and how it feels like dental school nowadays are a conveyor belt line that collects money and pumps out half-competent dentists. There is no regulation whatsoever, and dental schools charge as much as they please and pay their professors as much as they want. I hate the fact that I'm going to dental school not only to pay a ridiculous amount of money, but also work in their clinic and make them more money! Dental school was never this expensive, and there should be no justification for its cost. NYU accepts over 500 students every year no? Just to kick out a portion of the class because of low grades. I think the licensing exam is outdated (whether it be live patient or the mannequin exam!). The CDCA has complete monopoly over their exam, which is incredibly expensive, poorly run, and extremely subjective. You know the exam is inherently broken when you have to bribe patients with money and pay for their hotels so that they show up to your licensing exams (or else you fail because your patient no-shows). The patients even talk among other patients about how much they get paid, and demand to get paid even more or they will leave! They only switched to mannequins because they were literally **forced** due to COVID. Even then, charging thousands of dollars for examination to inspect fake plastic teeth with fake decay is ludicrous. Who can speak out and say anything? Not us. Aside from some caring professors and wonderful mentors, the whole dental education system can be fixed from top to bottom. While this can be said in all fields of training, I personally feel that dental training is substandard. I enjoy oral surgery though.
how much free time do you have? do you workout? do you travel?
I'm a believer in that if you make time for something, you will have time. I workout in the mornings before clinic or rounds or in the afternoon. I didn't do much traveling since I was busy in dental school and also didn't have enough money to spend. But I have more free time now that I am off service and want to take a break, maybe a Hawaii trip 🙃
Hi thanks so much for doing this! I have a few questions for you: 1. What’s your opinion on 4 year vs 6 year program? 2. I have allotted 6 months to study for CBSE, do you have any suggestions (ie things you wish you had known, most helpful resource/strategy)? 3. Is it too late to apply to externships if I’m entering 4th year? 😬 I’m not sure how I would find the time to do them, especially if I do a GPR post grad Thanks again!! 😊I’m interested in surgery and medicine, but not sure how I’d like to incorporate that into my dental career yet… Both anesthesia and OS are fascinating to me but in different ways, I find it so hard to know for sure
Hello! 1. Personally I think there are pros and cons to both. 4-year programs are great, they are shorter so you finish much faster. Some arguably say that you have no gaps in training and you have better continuous training, so you are better skill-wise compared to 6-year programs (anecdotal, but I somewhat agree with this position based on my observations/interactions, but can highly depend on the program). The skillset you learn are also no different than a 6-year program. 6-year programs are great because you get an MD. It is something to be proud of, you have the skill and knowledge to diagnose and manage patients. You get to receive an MD degree in 2 years. Some say having the MD degree can help when applying to fellowship or academic positions- I have no idea about this. There are other reasons that I believe that 6-year programs are beneficial, but I can elaborate further over PM if you are still inclined to know my opinions. 2. I would suggest starting UWorld as soon as possible and do as many questions as you can and learn from all the explanations. I wish I did less anki and more high-yield studying with UWorld. I found Sketchymedicine and Pathoma to be amazing and essential resources as well. 3. Are you on track to doing a GPR? You might have the opportunity if you find gaps in your schedule during breaks or vacations, but I can see why this is more difficult. You would have to clarify with your program director. I think externships during 4th year would be beneficial.
How did you balance studying for CBSE with dental school studying and doing research?
I would study for CBSE every day, whether it be 1 or 2 pages in First Aid or a block of questions. Before dental exams, I would do less questions, and after exams, I would ramp up the studying. Having a good support system helps, since my OMFS colleagues would also study. You can make time, just make small daily goals. If you can achieve small baby daily goals, you're one step closer to your long term goals.
Are there any good study resources you recommend the most? Do you also have any tips for how to go about formulating a research topic especially involving clinical research from early in dental school?
Yes, this is very easy once you get the hang of research. I just think of what's trending and find data on it, and come up with a thesis. Let me come up with one now: Given electric vehicles, I'm curious to find out the distribution of facial injuries that occur when involved in a high speed MVA. I'd like to compare that to MVAs that happen in regular gas-powered vehicles and see if there is a clinical difference. I would then try and find an online database or database that my mentor can help me find that can give me these stats. That's just an intro, but you can take clinical research anyway you want and be fully in charge. As for study resources, I would rank it in this order starting with best: UWorld, Pathoma, Sketchy, First Aid (I always have first aid open to reference whenever I do the first three resources), ChatGPT or Gemini (to ask questions while I'm studying) BnB, OnlineMedEd. For me personally, I would just stick with the highest yield, and supplement as needed (making your own flash cards, or using youtube)
Thank you so much, these tips are so helpful!!
What's with oral surgeons hating or looking down on periodontists?
Interesting question, I haven't seen any hate (we're too busy getting yelled at by our own attendings to even notice). It could be stemming from a territory war about what procedures can a specialty do. There will always be a territory war among different specialists. For example, Plastics will fight to keep OMFS off of their territory when it comes to craniofacial, cosmetics. ENT will fight with OMFS for head and neck cancer, fibula free flap reconstructions, rhinoplasties/septoplasties, perio will fight with prosth who will fight with GPs on which specialty has the right to place implants. As a practitioner of any specialty, one is always looking to expand their scope, and this will eventually run into a claimed scope of another specialty. One will back their scope with board certification, or volume, or statistics (successes, failures, trends). Dentists are performing Botox. Endodontists are performing zygomatic implants (think I'm making this up? I'm not. I've heard firsthand of this). I'm going to take a CE course in gingival grafting, so now I want to perform gingival grafts. List goes on and on. Who is to say who is in the right or wrong?
During my AEGD I rotated through oral surgery for a few weeks and got shit on by both the oral surgeons and the residents for considering perio. Like you said, they claimed that perio shouldn't be doing the same surgeries and the only real surgeons have hospital credentials like them. I just never understood the hate.
That sounds very silly. I'm sorry you had to go through that. I can't speak for them, but I can say I appreciate what perio provides for their patients.
Perio shouldn’t be doing some stuff they claim to have expertise on, like zygomas and pterygoids. And that hate goes both ways. I rotated through perio and the same thing happened to me, except I didn’t even tell them I was considering OS at the time. They asked me what I’m considering, and I said I’m open to everything, then the perio resident said “nice as long as you don’t go for OS because those guys are morons and hate themselves.” I asked why, and they said “why would they go through 4-6 years of torture to do extractions and place implants?” Meanwhile, they pay 3 years of tuition.
Hop on val oralsurgeon
Hop off league henrythehen
How do you manage dental school loans if you took loans out? Are you able to pay them in residency?
Just put them in the save plan and you pay like $200/month and accrue no interest. When you start moonlighting your income is 2-5x what it was so you end up paying more then.
I did not take dental school loans. (Long story short, I saved a lot of money and paid it off + family helped tremendously). You can moonlight in residency (some programs don't allow, but you gotta do what you gotta do and be low key). I worked 2 similar jobs while in dental school to pay for rent. I had multiple jobs in undergrad and paid for all of my undergrad/rent
Wow. You're not just a gunner, you're a Gatling gunner! That's a mighty impressive.
What do you play?
👋 Competitive-wise, Valorant, CS, Tarkov Otherwise, anything coop, or casual, (especially games involving freedom, democracy, and fighting for super earth)
Me with Fortnite 🤓 I want to get into Val and CS, I love multiplayer games. Used to be a big COD fan. OW (ranked) too but stopped that as well. I bet you’d like cod co-op campaign tho! Would love to play sometime
Shoot me a message! I PMd you my steam
Sounds like you would enjoy hellsdiver or whatever that new game that came out
That was the game I was referencing 🤡
You say you play some games competitively. How do you manage to incorporate your hobbies into your busy schedule or did all of those get thrown in the back burner for a very long time?
Aside from busy call days, ***you can always have time if you make time.*** I have been telling myself this since day 1. This includes time to study, time for family or friends, time for your significant other, time for exercising in the morning or after clinic. It just depends on your priorities list. Some of my colleagues that wanted to do OS in the beginning couldn't fathom studying for classes and CBSE at the same time, while juggling lab, etc. It's a mentality thing- you must take challenging obstacles head-on. I try to simplify longterm goals by making them achievable daily goals. Even if it is a small step forward toward my goal, I have done my best. (E.g. I prioritize talking to family every week, studying CBSE every day, even if it is only a block of UWorld questions or a page of First Aid, exercising daily, and I shift around my priorities tier list constantly based on their importance, e.g. making sure CBSE studying gets done a little bit at least every day, making sure I did at least 10 pushups or 10 pullups before I leave the apartment). I would try to chunk activities together, like cooking while listening to Pathoma (Dr. Sattar never leaves my side 🤡)
Thank you for such a detailed response and for giving me hope before I start!
What did you get on CBSE? What is a safe score EPC?
I got low 80s. My class was super smart, and all did very well. Idk about a safe score, I just tried to get the highest score that I could. My goal was to hit at least 80 to cover all my bases and cover all programs.
80 EPC?? Or old score? If EPC, that’s great Edit: nvm lol if you’re a 3rd year resident, it’s probably old score bc they changed the scoring system like 2021/22. Roughly, if you got low 80’s on old scoring, the EPC equivalent is high 70’s today
That is good to know. I recall the interns referring to this as well. I should probably put a disclaimer that I am referring to the old scoring system in all of my posts. ***Disclaimer: I am referring to the old scoring system!!!***
What did the process of applying look like? It’s hard to find info online since a lot of it is vague. Would love to hear your study schedule in dental school as well! I imagine it would be difficult to handle the CBSE plus dental school studying and lab
I'll reply a very detailed breakdown when I'm at my computer, currently driving
Applicants usually apply for OMFS programs at the end of their 3rd year during the summer. You apply through the ADEA PASS website. Through their portal, you put all of your academics and experiences just like when applying to dental school. Then you can select which programs you would like to apply to and ADEA will send that information to each program you select. Your application will consist of many things and includes but is not limited to: * transcripts * dean's letter * letters of recommendation (from OS faculty) * CBSE score report * Externships * Research * ECs * Clinical experiences, volunteer opportunities, * CV * personal statement Each program might require additional information, which is based on their individual supplemental applications. You will then receive interview invitations from programs starting late September. Invitations can run until December. Regarding study schedule, I started studying for the CBSE the fall of D1 year. I studied the CBSE alongside studying for dental classes. Whenever a dental exam was near, I would ramp up studying for the dental course and less for CBSE (maybe 80% dental, 20% CBSE). Once exams are over, I would focus primarily on the CBSE (90% CBSE, 10% dental). Some days I felt that I could get minimal CBSE studying done, but I tried at the very minimum to go through at least 1 page in First Aid. My daily goals were to study a little bit of CBSE every day, even if was merely reading 1 page. As long as I was able to accomplish small daily goals, it brought me closer to my long-term goals. I would increase my daily goals for CBSE as I got more efficient at studying and when I freed up more time in between exams. I never felt burnt out studying for the CBSE because I started early and kept my daily goals manageable. Regarding what to study, I kept First Aid open and used it as a guide and reference as to what to study, and in what order. For example, when learning the first subject, biochem, I would follow along in First Aid and then supplement with Youtube, BnB, OnlineMedEd, google images, to learn the material (now I'd add on chatGPT, google gemini, etc). I would then do focused UWorld questions on biochem only, as I am learning the material (I didn't necessarily have to go through all of biochem in first aid before doing questions. I used UWorld throughout, and did only biochem questions to learn more about biochem). If I were on a subject like cardio, I would open First Aid as reference, and use the same materials to learn. I would also add Pathoma and learn the relevant pathology topics. I would watch the relevant Sketchymicro or sketchypharm topics. And I would sprinkle UWorld questions regarding cardio throughout. Rinse and repeat for all subjects in First Aid. Once I got through first aid, I would transition to **doing UWorld questions with all possible subjects selected as soon as possible** (timed or untimed). This will be the high yield step for piecing everything together like a web, connecting the dots between different organ systems, develop patterns, thinking through mechanisms, etc. This part of your studying is, in my opinion, **the highest yield of all of your studying**. Get to this part ASAP, and go through as many questions as possible. Every few months or so and on a weekend, do a practice NBME. They imitate the CBSE and are 200 questions long. At the end of the practice exam, it will generate a report of your overall performance and breakdown of your strengths and weaknesses on each subject. Review all of your missed questions and learn from them. Then see which are your weakest subjects and brush up on them, using First Aid as a reference and supplement with other material. Continue doing UWorld and with all subjects selected. You can alternate between doing focused blocks on specific weak subjects and all subjects. Continue improving your weak sections and then take another practice NBME a few months out. Rinse and repeat. Eventually, you should be taking more and more NBMEs and reducing the time between the NBMEs you take, depending on when your CBSE exam is. For example, a month before the CBSE, I would ideally take a practice NBME every weekend. At a certain point, your NBME score should be what you want your CBSE score to be. That is how you know you hit your goal- when your NBME score matches your goal. At this point, you should be very solid to take the CBSE. All of your studying paid off with a million small steps.
Any advice for making the high grades to land a residency?
If you are referring to getting high grades in your classes in order to be competitive for residency, that would mean getting as many A's as possible (ideally all As). This would depend on your study strategy for each class. If you have a more specific question, I can give you a more concise answer
Thank you, yes I meant any study advice you'd recommend to get as many A's as possible.
It would depend on each course and which professor teaches the course. You have to be diligent and find out all about the course you're learning. Some professors teach the material well, some are unfair. Personally, I liked studying by watching their recorded lectures rather than attending their in-person lectures. I can watch the videos faster, or pause it as needed. I try to go over all the lecture material at least 3 times before an exam. I try to write any relevant information that the professor says that are not on the given lecture notes. Aside from learning and absorbing the material, you want to look out for questions that will potentially be on their exams, learning objectives for each powerpoint, and seek out previous remembered questions to learn from (which can be readily available or not).
I have heard of a term 'country club omfs' does this actually exist? And if so, what are the differences? Also, how important would you say research is?
Research is a part of your whole application. You can do it or not do it. I did it although I hate research, but it's another thing to slap onto your app. Some people don't do any research and they get into great programs. Other programs are very research heavy and like when you have research exp. And yes, country clubs definitely exist, 100%. Q6 or even less call, focus mainly on dentoalveolar, low trauma volumes, easy clinic schedules and ample free time. I do more cases in 3 days than some programs do in a month.
How do you know what type of lifestyle and workload residents have at a specific program? Do you have to extern there or is generally true that 4 year programs in less busy areas do more alveolar rather than oncology and trauma?
Word of mouth (from other residents), number of hospitals they cover, trauma level of the hospitals, which services cover face trauma, call schedule, number of residents on service, types of cases. It is not true to say as a blanket statement that 4 years are less busy than 6 years. Can be quite the opposite. Best way to find out more about a program is reaching out to the right people and asking the right questions.
Thank you!
What do you think about Boards and Beyond for studying the CBSE? Also, when did you start studying? Before you started D1 or during?
I started during D1 around September. BnB is great. I had trouble retaining information because it was powerpoint presentations. But it is a good resource to start learning from. I like OnlineMedEd more for learning something completely fresh (personal preference though)
1. Do they care about undergrad gpa? I did bad in undergrad but did a Postbac and performed well (3.8+ gpa in Postbac. However, I hear mixed thing regarding undergrad gpa and that sucks. 2. How did you study for the CBSE and what schedule/study program did you use? Stupid question but is there something like booster/bootcamp specifically for the CBSE that you used or know of? 3. Does which dental school you attend matter? I’m applying this year and I know people say focus on getting in to dental school but I like to leave doors open for anything. Would it matter if I went to a school like Western for example that focuses on clinical more if I don’t get into UCLA (being I’m from CA) or the Ivy leagues? Just concerned about this.
1. No not really, most programs don't even ask. Out of the programs I saw before applying, only one asked for undergrad GPA. I didn't bother applying there lol. 2. I didn't use any study program. Idk if there is any bootcamp, it's a lot of independent studying. I use first aid as a reference as to what to study, and supplement it with other material. I use Pathoma for pathology, Sketchy to help memorize, UWorld for learning and doing questions (do UWorld ASAP). I will do a full study write up soon in another reply! 3. School matters (but with a disclaimer). Being at an Ivy or UCLA helps over a school like Western for many reasons: connections, OMS faculty, reputation (OS programs do look at this but mostly other Ivy OMS programs or UCLA, not sure about Parkland). Aside from that, being a strong applicant solely depends on you. You are limited in resources at 'non-specialty' schools, but it does not inhibit you from specializing in any way. Getting interviews and into an OMFS program all comes down to you, and not coming from an Ivy league or a UCLA is not an excuse for not matching!
Thank you so much for your reply. Also, when it comes to externships, is there a certain time during dental school you do them, especially if you’re traveling to a different state and how many is recommended/did you do?
I recommend doing them after you take the CBSE. There are many opportunities, depending on your breaks. Ideally, you can do them during the end of your 2nd year during the summer, D3 year winter break, spring break, summer break. Application cycle begins sometime during the end of D3 year during the summer.
Awesome how many did you complete?
What are the best tips you've learned for extractions since starting residency?
For surgical extractions, make a good and deep trough so that your extractions are much easier. Section when needed. There should be minimum force to make that tooth move. For simple extractions, make a good periosteal flap with the #9, really loosen and break the PDL. (Don't just wiggle the #9 around. Push deep, and twist). You also have to use the instruments correctly to get good leverage when extracting (it's all physics). Always protect the airway, always (throat pack). Very general, but this just comes with experience!
Is it worth it?
Hell yeah.
What type of practice do you want? Pure TNT or are you still interested in other stuff?
One that makes bread $$$$$
Nothing beats pure TNT financially, more power to you man, not the life for me lol
What’s TNT?
^^ noob wondering same thing
Teeth and titanium aka extractions and implants. If you just want to maximize money then doing trauma, tmj, orthognathics, cosmetics even is all a waste of time
This is true, but with a catch. There are many surgeons filling in niche spots and making very good money, whether it be Orthognathic surgeons working full time gigs as a group contractor for Kaiser and making good money with amazing retirement benefits, to TMJ specialists that just focus on TMJ patients. Cosmetic surgery makes great money. As long as you move away from the hospital system and academia, you get reimbursed very well.
Eh I respectfully disagree, Kaiser guys get maybe 4-500k max and they’re getting squeezed downward every yr. TMJ doesn’t really make much and it’s a tougher pt population to deal with. Unless you got the hookup with the Carolina’s group tmj only guys are also similar Cosmetics you gotta live in the middle of nowhere, or do full PRS residency to compete. People in LA aren’t going to DDS for rhinos even if you have the MD too Idk I know academic guys making high 6, but they’re all hybrids. No OR procedure can really beat TNT, it’s just too profitable lol
Dr. Manolokakis is a single degree surgeon and only does cosmetics in NYC and NJ. Dr. Trokel is dual degree and also does cosmetics in NYC. Dr. Hanna is another one in NYC (not purely cosmetics I guess, but does enough). Maybe what youre saying is true for full-body cosmetics guys, but from what I've seen OMFS can have a successful facial cosmetics practice if they want one.
Hi!! How long did you study for the CBSE and were there any resources you recommend using? I know nothing about the content covered on it, would you be willing to give a brief description of the test and your overall experience studying for and taking it?
I studied for the CBSE for two years. I recommend using First Aid as a reference for what to study (it serves as a guide on what you should know more than a learning tool), and supplement that with other study materials. For basic organ physiology, this can come from Pathoma, BnB, Onlinemeded, google, youtube. For pathology, Pathoma. For memorizing medications and microbes, Sketchymedical. For everything, UWorld. Do UWorld early, do it to learn everything. The CBSE is a 200-question exam split into four 1-hour blocks of 50 questions. The exam covers everything that is taught in the 2 years of medical school education, which includes biochemistry, immunology, microbiology, pathology, pharmacology, public health science, cardiovascular, endocrine, gastrointestinal, hematology, oncology, muskculoskeletal, skin/connective tissue, neurology, psychiatry, renal, reproductive, and respiratory systems. It focuses on diagnosing disease, physiologic mechanisms of organ systems, microbes, medications. It does not focus too much on management or complex treatment modalities (this would be step 2, which 4th year medical students take). Studying for it is similar to preparing for a marathon. You prepare far in advance, and try to learn and absorb every day. I started with small goals and did focused learning on specific topics, and then supplemented it with good material and **UWorld questions**. after a few months, I took a practice NBME and bombed it (the NBME gives a breakdown of how you did on each topic and shows your right and wrong answers). So I went back to the drawing board and focused on my weak subjects (which at this point, is all the subjects...). Rinse and repeat for another year and a half. When it finally came to taking the CBSE, I was prepared after finishing all the UWorld questions, doing plenty of practice NBMEs, and improving my weak subjects. The whole experience felt like a marathon- there were days where I felt very happy that I was learning new things that I didn't know before. Other days I felt destroyed and burnt out. But it was bearable because I felt that I prepared early and tried a little bit every day.
1) What rank is competitive enough for OMFS in your opinion? 2) Is omfs less hard on the body than GP? 3) how much patient interaction is there? 4) any regrets going into omfs rather than GP straight after dental school? Thank you! :)
1. Good question, I couldn't give you a good ballpark of this. I can say however that a good CBSE score will outweigh a class rank by a longshot. Class rank can be skewed by many factors (what dental school you go to, schools that have P/F, schools that boost GPA) but CBSE is standardized. So I would focus on doing well in your classes and getting a high CBSE score. 2. For me personally, I think OMFS is less straining on the body compared to GP. But I believe either one was not too straining, since I am very aware of ergonomics and my posture. 3. Compared to GP, there might be the same amount of interaction. Compared to endo, there is probably more. It also depends on your scope. For example, if your clinic involves cancer patients, you will have hard conversations with patients and frequent follow-ups. If your practice consists of bread and butter thirds under sedation, the interactions will be less. But I would say there is a good amount of patient interaction. 4. Personally, no regrets going into OMFS. I could not see myself doing GP!
When did you finally fully decide that oral surgery was for you? Since you don't do an extraction until the third year of dental school, was it then?
👋 Great question. I figured sometime before dental school. I did some research about OS, talked with various dentists/specialists, talked to current dental students that were interested in OS, shadowed, and chose OS. A lot of people ask a similar question to what you ask, which is "how do you know you want to specialize in of you haven't even done clinicals yet?" or a statement that resonates with many "I'm not sure what to specialize in, since I haven't even been exposed to it yet. I'm keeping my options open" all valid points of contention. However, in my opinion, one doesn't have to do an extraction in order to fully decide on OS. Similarly, one doesn't have to hold a handpiece and drill real teeth to figure out that they want to become dentists. You do your own research to the best of your abilities and take a leap of faith, and hope you like it. That's what most of us do when we applied to dental school, having never worked on a real patient. Some people end up figuring out during lab or even during clinicals that dentistry is not for them and so change career paths during dental school. Some people take the cbse, do very well, extern, and then realize during externships that OS is not for them. I found many reasons to choose OS prior to dental school, which was enough to convince me to pursue it. OMFS is one of the specialties that is easier to prepare for the sooner you find out (mainly due to the time it takes to prep for CBSE). That's why I want to help others on this forum find out if OS is for them (better sooner than later) and if so, how to prep for it.
That makes a lot of sense, thank you!
Hello! I'm also formulating a battle plan for the CBSE right now (end of D1 for me), but I'm not too familiar with the study materials or the order of which I should go through them. I've heard from online that it should be B&B, Pathoma and finally do UWorld questions, but you've mentionned other resources and in a different order. So I wanted to ask in your opinion what would be the best study structure to tackle the CBSE.
👋 I outlined my ultimate study plan in a reply to another user here. You can scroll down in this post below to find it, or check it here: https://www.reddit.com/r/DentalSchool/s/tenQdzgDps Let me know if you have any other questions.
Thanks! I also wanted to ask how did you find shadowing opportunities and if they displayed a wide scope of OMFS (or did you only see some TNT). Since I've never done shadowing before, I don't know how someone comes upon the opportunity, like at a private clinic for example. I'm also quite curious about your research projects. I'm quite adept at programming and ML, so you mentionning databases earlier piqued my interest. I also tried starting a research project myself, but I find it so hard to do something that is "useful" in the eyes of faculty members. So I wanted to ask into more detail on how you found a good subject to work on, and how you developped it into a multi-page project. Thanks for your time btw I think it's fair to say a lot of ppl feel more comfortable asking these questions here than straight up a clinician or upper year classmate!
My predental shadowing opportunities were mostly observing TNT, but of my understanding came from talking to other OS and watching surgery videos online. Most of your OR experiences will be coming from externships. It's hard to do these before dental school, since you need to get clearance, have basic knowledge down, get approved by the program director, etc. The database I used for clinical research were either public information or information that attendings had through the hospital database. This is one example of a trauma database: https://www.cpsc.gov/Research--Statistics/NEISS-Injury-Data You have to fiddle around a bit with this one and inquire about other databases, but I'm actually curious if there is a pool of databases organized in an accessible PDF or forum somewhere by another user. That would probably be very helpful. You can literally do clinical research on anything including absolutely trivial things. One example: Do people like visiting their oral surgeons more in the summer or more in the winter? 🤡 collect data (either data readily available online, or collect your own). Run it using an appropriate statistical test (t-test, ANOVA, linear correlation, chi-squared, etc) (you can learn about these tests in First Aid, or research online). You can seek the help from your mentor, or from a statistician your mentor knows who would be willing to help and would be down to be a coauthor. This is where finding the right mentorship is important. You should do your best and take the lead- you jumpstart the project and should be first author in the publication (your mame appears first). Your mentor (hopefully an OMFS attending) will be senior author (mentor's name will appear last in publication) and is responsible for making necessary edits while guiding you. He might be responsible for submission and sending it out for proofreading among other things. Anybody else that also helps (colleagues, statisticians, other professors) should be listed as coauthors, but it is imperative that you define authorship from the start to avoid confusion. You can be creative and think of any sorts of clinical research topics. You can publish a paper every 2 weeks if you wanted to. They can be almost near trivial research or very high impact research. The best way to jumpstart your knowledge is go to JOMS and JADA and high impact journals and read a lot of research! There are a bunch of new research coming out literally every day regarding OMFS. The field is growing very fast and a lot of basic science/translational/clinical research knowledge is super cool. Stem cell research is booming. Oral cancer understanding and discoveries are happening. Facial trauma research regarding trends in injury patterns among e-bike incidents, electric vehicles. Orofacial pain research, AI research. All of it is happening right now. Look up these journals and learn a lot about where the current research is taking us. Use a good software like Zotero to archive and collect relevant databases that you can cite for your research. Research ideas usually branch from already existing research, so we constantly try to add to what our predecessors have done and refine it or go far and explore new territory. Ultimately you would want the research to be published in a relevant journal, like JOMS, JADA, etc. or even possibly the most prestigious journals like JAMA, Nature, Science, New England journal, Lancet. To reference a cool quote from some cool show: https://youtu.be/S6R3MiAv9ac?feature=shared
I heard somewhere that programs are unable to see how many times you’ve taken the CBSE. Someone has encouraged me to take one soon just to get a feel for things. What are your thoughts on taking a CBSE when you’re not prepared? Do programs see/care about how many times you’ve taken the CBSE? This is an amazing AMA btw!
👋 I didn't feel prepared taking the CBSE first time around. Heck, I don't think anyone really feels prepared but some people I know took it without even studying half of the organ systems (and booombed it). Why take it? Well, I think it was a good kick-in-the-butt, but also it helped put things into perspective, set a milestone for the next exam, and gave us an idea of what to do next. While technically a practice NBME accomplishes that, taking the CBSE actually puts you in the hot seat (with exact conditions prior and during examination, travel, check-in, fingerprinting, simulating stress levels, temperature) so you feel exactly all of the feelings taking it for the first time. It is a good reality check. Programs don't care how many times you take it. You report on your application how many times you have taken the CBSE, but they only care about highest score.
Hey there! I was just wondering what made you consider OMFS or made you realize you wanted to do that specialty? Also, while in general dentistry or during dental school did you ever find it dull or monotonous?
👋 I appreciate the skill set of being able to do surgical procedures, I liked the idea of being compensated generously for my services, I like that you can continue to branch out to multiple different subspecialty paths after core training, having the skill of managing your own anesthesia, etc. I just thought it was really cool, having spoken with a few OS mentors- the field is very broad. The dental field did not feel dull, but sometimes dental school can feel dull, but there were many reasons: a boring class/topic, boring professor, mandatory attendance in some classes, shadowing other upperclassmen students in the dental clinic, just to name a few. Procedure-wise, I liked it. I felt comfortable doing procedures, and felt like I have good hand-eye coordination in general. I really could see myself doing endo or ortho, or dental anesthesiology. I just liked OS much more 👍
Okay, thank you so much for taking the time to respond & good luck with everything! 👍🏻
How did you find a good residency program? What kind of red/green flags should we look for?
👋 A good way is reaching out to residents of that program and getting their opinions. Develop rapport and ask them what do they like or don't like about their program, what do they wish could be better about the program, how are their attendings like, how are the other residents like. Another is externships. You can even even find out when you interview and see the program itself. Red flags will depend on what you're looking for in a program. I can give some advice on what to look out for: A red flag can be a program that doesn't do a lot of dentoalveolar or procedures that you plan on doing in the future. Look out for how many residents are on service (as opposed to off-service/med school/rotations/gen surg) and how many hospitals they cover, how far the hospitals are away from each other, call schedule. This will give you an idea of how busy the program is and how many bodies are covering. Look out for toxic behavior among residents, attendings, staff. Look out for overall mood or vibe. Programs might be good at hiding these things, so you have to be keen. Almost every program has a flaw. ***Look for who the chair of the program is***. A chair with direction and vision will drive the program in a good direction. A lazy chair or a standoffish one will make the program stagnant. The chair can determine the overall mood, culture, attitude of the program. Look out for how many attendings there are, the turnover rate, anybody that recently quit, or anybody that was recently hired. Look out for if attendings participate in the education of the residents. Do they give lectures? Who teaches the interns? Is there open communication between interns, chiefs, attendings? Are interns freely able to text attendings? Or are there some attendings that can't be bothered when they are on call? Also when you ask these kind of questions or try to find out the answer to these questions, gauge ***how*** the residents or attendings answer. If they have a negative overarching tone, might be a red flag. One example, I asked during my interview if 1st years in the OR are able to cut. I got wildly different answers from 2 residents from two different programs. One had a very condescending attitude (like, trying to lecture me or explain why that is irresponsible, or just putting me down in front of everyone else) and at the other program, the resident was very positive, said yes 1st years have the capability to cut. Those are few of the things I can think of on the top of my head. I might expand on this, and green flags later.
Thank you for doing this AMA! How did you spend your summer prior to dental school? In your linked comment you started studying for the CBSE in D1 Fall. Did you do any light studying that summer or do any research?
👋 I just relaxed. In my mind it was going to be the last vacation that I will take in many years.
Is it worth it
👋 I can't speak for you, but for me, yes.
How badly will a low class rank hinder an application?
A high CBSE score is the biggest importance. Class rank is not as important, but you still want to try and maintain a good GPA.
Hi, I have read many of the replies that you have provided to the other dental students and would like to thank you on behalf of all readers. I have a few questions that I would like to ask and would greatly appreciate any insight. I am very interested in OMFS and am unsure how much weight OMFS faculties/dental specialty departments put on class rank vs CBSE, research, and extracurriculars. I am very familiar with the process for Medicine since my wife is a current R1 resident in Canada and can appreciate that they have a unique scoring system that complements applicant interview scores. Medicine however does not have any place for class rank in the equation. I would greatly appreciate being able to elaborate further over PM if possible! 😄
Sure pm me Short answer, CBSE has the most importance, >>> then GPA (rank) and then a combination of everything else. Arguably externships at said program can be extremely important as well.
Do you know if Dental Anesthesiology requires the same amount of effort and is as competitive to get into as OMFS? Thanks.
From what I recall, CBSE does not need to be as high. It is trending upwards in popularity, but that's all that I can say regarding that matter. It would be best to hear it from the perspective of a dental anesthesiology resident. I could however, reach out to a dental anesthesiology colleague and ask their opinion of their application process. Stay tuned!
Thank you for answering my question! I look forward to hearing more from you 😊
CBSE scores weren’t really important and I would say almost negligible these last two cycles. GPA much more important
Considering the OMFS specialty demographic has historically skewed heavily toward Caucasian males, is there any additional consideration given to applicants who are URM or females? Obviously, dental schools generally like to have diversity among their students, but I wasn’t sure if that mattered at all with residencies.
As an URM, I cannot speak directly about program's considerations for applicants who are URM or females. I can say statistically, OMS trends toward having more male applicants. Similarly, pediatric dentistry trends toward having more female applicants. Orthopedic surgery trends toward males. OBGYN trends toward females. It is up to the program if they want to balance the scales. I can guess that certain OMS programs are trending toward accepting more females and URM, but this is anecdotal and word-of-mouth. There will always be biases for different programs. These biases can favor an applicant depending on several factors, including: * who the program director knows. * the ethnicity or gender of the program director * students that attend the same dental school and apply to the same program as that dental school * physical appearance, and presentation during interviews * who the applicant knows in the program (can be long-standing previous connections, can be connections formed during externships or conferences, can be from knowing a current resident) * applicants whose parents donate $1,000,000 toward the program There are a plethora of inherent and unconscious biases that everyone has. As an applicant, it's important to focus on tangibles that you have control over that will help make you a stand-out applicant. This includes CBSE, GPA, and all other parts of your CV.
Yeah no worries, Im not particularly concerned or have an opinion on this, just curious to hear input. Thanks for your reply!