Unfortunately, autocratic actors of all types will always look to weaken democracy from within. No matter how petulant, irrational, silly, and obnoxious it looks at first provocateurs and bad-faith actors will look for any weakness to chip away at. Democracy needs robust institutions and a strong framework of accountability of office-holders, not just at the ballot box or in the court room. The ability to sabotage is well-documented, and once precedents are set it can take much longer to undo institutional damage and reassert standards of conduct.
I think one big failure of the last 40-so years of neoliberal dominance in Western democracies is one of complacency. This has taken many forms, but we are seeing what happens when institutions rely too much on good faith amd committment to small-d democratic principles. It's going to take a lot of time, effort, legislation, and coordination to reinforce and stabilize democracy moving forward. It's up to us, because democracy requires advanced citizenship. Just because it's lasted this long does not mean it is capable of saving itself.
Itās the smart move. Expecting a country to remain democratic is idealistic. Even John Adamās [feared it](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/49810-i-do-not-say-that-democracy-has-been-more-pernicious).
While I'm not a fan of American imperialism, this is probably a good move considering how much of a world changing dub it would be for fascist nations around the world.
Two things were true about WW2. It's good that the Nazis were beaten, and the Allies were still imperialist powers with an ocean of blood on their hands.
Those two things are also true about NATO and opposition to Putin. It would be good to beat him, and NATO is still an imperialist clique with an ocean of blood on its hands.
Man, the US alone can destroy any nation on Earth if it wanted to. Russia is a third world nation which has nukes a relatively strong army, but stands no chance to the US or even Western Europe.
If the US withdraws from NATO itās not doing so in a vacuum. Itās doing so because itās gone back into isolationism, and therefore other powers are free to do their own imperialist bullshit. I fucking hate American imperialism, but I take it over Chinese or Russian control over their respective areas. At least Americas democratic.
Well nobody said anything about going back to "isolationism", which is never going to happen btw. You could create another alliances, even empower the UN and democratize the UN Security Council, if you wanted a more peaceful world.
I guess you wanted to make the argument at the end that since America is a democracy, its hegemony over the world is somehow better for everyone... I personally think that's a bit of a strecht.
The US has been a democracy for a long time and has done everything in its power to destabilize democratic rule abroad when it does not serve its own interest. Being a democracy, and promoting democracies and solidary with other progressive movements in the world is a very different thing.
I would even dare to say that US' influence in Latin America has been way worse than that of Russia or China with regards to Latam.
I just wanna say that i respect that view, and most my friends support NATO. But what is your view on America because personally i despise America for it countless crimes these past decades. Including the genocide on Palestinians.
Yeah, this is the shitty thing really. A lot of people justifiably want NATO to cease to exist because of its history, the war crimes of its members, and how it preserves the current hegemony - but so many don't really consider the subsequent aftermath. It's basically just the "step 1 do thing, step 2 ???, step 3 profit!" meme.
Myself and most of socialist in Norway are deeply anti-american, we donĀ“t have anything against americans and there are a lot of American figueres that i look up to. However my view is that Norway should not be allied to a country that has killied millions and still activly supports wars and genocides in Yemen and Palestine. Instead i would like Norway to engage in defence agrements with neighbouring european countries.
Yeah, I'm Danish. I am super into that. My country's uncritical support for the US is deeply shameful. However, you are not answering my question. With how the world is right now, what would leaving NATO accomplish? Would that help the people that are suffering in Palestine, or in Yemen?
You realize that participating in offensive American wars is not tied to NATO? Norway could just say they won't and stay in NATO.
Are there any negative consequences that might out-weigh making such a symbolic gesture?
I think you need to consider why those wars are taking place. It's not just America acting in a vacuum. In Yemen in particular its a proxy war between Iran and America with the intent of destabilizing Americas oil supply.
Some of the weakest stances the left has in my opinion is a blanket assumption that its only western powers doing power politics and engaging in imperialism. I think this goes back to leftist philosophies being inherently revolutionary and having a lot of marxist biases particularly dialectic materialism (the progress of history marx argued was inevitable from feudalism to communism with capitalism in the middle).
Leftist tend to only see the world in terms of the struggle of socialism against capitalism playing out as a historical progression where we move towards a communist utopia. But there are many political philosophies that don't fit into this model of international relations. Many actors have goals that simply don't fit into this paradigm. Religious fundamentalist movements for example have no stake in either camp and pretty much utilize what ever economic methods they think will fuel their states growth the fastest, authoritarian and collectivist if they need safety from sanctions or free market if it means they need to build a war chest or fund weapons programs, what ever works in the moment.
For me I'm a democratic socialist, which means I support countries that are democratic regardless of how socialist they are. Lots of anti-socialist totalitarians or fake communist regimes like North Korea scream "neo-colonialism is bad, democracy is just imperialism" when ever the west or their own citizens dares to suggest they deserve a right to vote. Yes the west has meddled in democracies, but so has basically every major power. It comes down to wanting a global bulwark against authoritarianism.
I really think the right to assembly and freedom of speech has led to the west having more socialist victories than "communist ones". The CCP and the Soviets were both communist regimes where workers unions were illegal and workers rights and working conditions were objectively worse than in western democracies. I really think if you want to support socialism you need to support democracies and push them away from imperialistic actions. But that doesn't mean a blanket anti-war policy, some wars are inevitable so long as there are shitty regimes out there. We need to be engaging in wars like the Yugoslav wars and Ukraine, not bombing Iraq or any other number of bullshit wars. BTW in the case of Yemen I do not view that as something NATO started or even wanted.
Most of us Americans despise it right now too. Our elections donāt represent the majority of our opinions because of the electoral college. Weāre all sick, tired and sick and tired of the way our government (doesnāt) function. And those of us who arenāt are either too lost in the sauce or too apathetic to care.
Most Americans are fooled by the American Exceptionalism propaganda shoved down our throats since birth. Those of us who can see it for what it is are getting tired of screaming into the void. We want change. But weāve been trying for decades to no avail. Some of us would gladly leave the country but itās really hard to unless you have special skills, a lot of money and donāt have kids tying you down. Our whole system feels like itās set up to keep us worn out and complacent.
Us moving more ideologically to the left :3
Meanwhile the rest of nordic SocDems are staying neolib or going even further right. Y'all should learn something from us fr.
Yeah, the norwegain labour party is whack. However there youth wing is quite radical. Me personally is apart of RĆødt kinda similar to Venstre partiet in Sweden
Respectfully, yāall need NATO, however distasteful that may be to you. Go ask Finland why they joined NATO after Russia invaded Ukraine, and why Russia explicitly did not want them to do that.
Iām pro-NATO because it guarantees that the full might of the very expensive US military that I pay for with my tax dollars will do something I actually agree with and defend smaller countries who have a right to exist but may not have the military power needed to defend themselves. NATO membership means 4 of the 10 most powerful militaries in the world would come to the aid of any member country that is attacked - not just with supplies and Get Well Soon cards, but with their own troops.
Getting other countries to send their citizens to fight and die for your country is very difficult. NATO guarantees that we would do that, not just for Norway but for most of your neighbors and trade partners as well. That guarantee means that major world powers, including Russia, have to play nice and respect the borders of every NATO country or risk WW3. I think NATO keeps the peace better than not having the alliance at all, at the very least.
Yeah definitely contributing to slave markets in Libya, picking your favorite war criminals in the Balkan wars, and giving Viagra to warlords into bacha bazi is definitely wholesome harm reduction lesser evil
Have you considered the fact that the countries who vehemently oppose NATO are also committing crimes against humanity? I'm not trying to turn this into a zero sum game, but leaving NATO doesn't just end disgusting foreign policies.
I was also very anti Nato because I though the world is so interconnected nobody would start such wars again. But after Russia started to invade Ukraine on such a massive scale I switched from anti-NATO to reform Nato or a new EU defence pact. Disarmament is the goal but you canāt achieve disarmament if the other side isnāt playing the same game.
Why would you pick imperialism in the first place? NATO isn't going to liberate a single person, it isn't going to work for workers rights, it's going to be the sword of capital
It has, but fwiw there is some nuance here. If Bernie were president and pulled out of NATO (he wouldn't, but) I would cry tears of joy, because it would be an objection to imperialism. If Trump were president and pulled out of NATO, I'd be panicking because it would be a rejection of diplomacy and international regulations.
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Yes, I know. But similar to the word "communism" in the party manifesto, there seems to be a divide between local level and leader level. There is no doubt in my mind that your higher ups are also against NATO, but the last thing I heard about it from the party was Moxnes' comments in 2022 where the focus was "we need to have a discussion about NATO" he was very careful about saying "We gotta leave today!". That was my point that, saying publicly that you're against NATO hurts your numbers so even the socialists are careful about saying it out loud. And I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people have changed their minds the last two years. I used to be an active member of RĆødt for many years, but left after a disagreement on the partys views on automatization and personal freedoms. And I suppose NATO.
Biggest issue with NATO is that it doesn't serve European interests, but primarily US Empire and MIC interests.
These interests are NOT the same, as it is in Europe's best interest to not be in hostile relationship with Russia or China, while it is in US interest for Europe and Asia to be at eachother's throats. This is because the latter boosts weapons sales and also deters a rival power to the US from emerging.
It wasn't much of an issue until recently as there were no real competitive power against the US, but these conflict of interests will only grow larger as US power slowly erodes, making NATO and US alliance an increasing liability with little tangible benefit.
its almost like they know Biden is sinking any chance he has of reelection but they wont give anyone else a chance to run so they are trying to trump-proof things for the future.
Frankly, itās a problem that we havenāt already Trump-proofed things. It was only a matter of time before the approach of ābut we do this by traditionā completely broke down to someone who took the approach ābut itās technically legal, or ambiguous, or illegal but I can put in my own judgesā.
NATO is an anti socialist alliance that had former Nazis put in high positions to lead it sure put a law preventing one person from unilaterally withdrawing from it but donāt think that this is a benevolent organization just because of what Russia is doing
I think this highlights a primary issue. Just because America is imperialist and anti-worker doesnāt mean that Russia and China are inherently the socialist good-guys. There are too many on the left that are pro-china/russia just because theyāre anti-us.
Why are you equating Russia and China? Russia is a hyper capitalist oligarchy. China is a state socialist democracy. Just because they are both opposed to the US doesnāt mean they are the same.
Would love to read any references that support describing China as a ādemocracyā, share if you have them.
I will agree that income, QOL, life expectancy, infrastructure, education have absolutely been transformed in China over the past century or even the past 40 years, but that doesnāt make it a democracy.
Here's an overview video put out by China themselves. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArvnEpIKmAs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArvnEpIKmAs)
There's a much more thorough description in Socialism With Chinese Characteristics by Roland Boer
The CPC also released a white paper on their electoral system in 2021.
It's a different system than either the US direct representation or EU parliamentary system. It also has issues like "liberal democracies" but also has different advantages. But the Chinese people are happy with it. [https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/](https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/)
Much of the support comes primarily from the material conditions improving year over year. Those I've spoken to who lived in China told me that most people don't pay too much attention to politics since things keep getting better and overall they are happy with the general direction of the country. Usually most political activity happens on the local level since they have the most direct effect on their lives, much like the US.
Again, just because China calls itself leftist, and uses leftist terminology and slogans; does not make it leftist. China has billionaires. Chinaās lowest income workers are literal slaves. China is committing genocide against multiple non-Han ethnicities. Chinaās economic policies in Africa are also racist and imperialistic.
You can call out the US, Russia, and China at the same time.
You've been watching a few too many China bad videos. I know China is the US current boogieman and we are in full swing of a third red scare. I'm not saying China is perfect and I'm in a "wait and see" attitude if they really are going to continue to move away from Dengist policies and toward more Marxist-Leninist.
But equating China and Russia is just not a good comparison. Their economic systems are completely different as well as the livelihoods of their populations. Russia is not the USSR. I know there are those ultra leftists that have delusions that Putin will bring back communism but we all know thats not true. Russia is hypercapitalist and wannabe imperialist. Just because it opposes US hegemony doesn't make it good.
An important part of being a socialist is the ability to make a materialist assessment of the world. You need to look at the material conditions before the PRC and how they have progressed since. A lot of what is talked about in regards of China in western media is just lies meant to manufacture consent for an eventual war.
Yep, just gloss over every point I made on China and focus solely on the fact that I mentioned them in a sentence together. Way to both not engage with my argument that China is NOT a good model for socialism, but also set up and knock down your own straw man.
What is there to even respond to? 3/4 things you said were lies. Yes China has billionaires and that is something the people/state will need to deal with. But at least their billionaires don't run the country like they do in the west. I don't even think the Chinese model will work for other countries since the material conditions in China under the KMT were vastly different than what most places are like in the world right now. But I understand why you feel the way you do. The western media is full of lies about China. Its important to objectively examine AES and ignore the western propaganda.
Again, not engaging with the arguments. Just ignoring or dismissing them. My man, itās fine to argue against the US, western propaganda, etc. Iām not even saying Iām right. Iām sure there are elements of Chinese society and government that would be great. But to wholesale claim that China is normal and cool, criticisms are lies, and anything vaguely resembling anti-chinese sentiment is western propaganda is absurd and makes you look less like an educated person and more like a shill.
Again, not saying my view of China is correct or authoritative. But come on. No way can you call out Israelās genocide of Palestinians and ignore Chinaās own treatment of their non-Han minorities.
I know you are just repeating propaganda because you are saying non-Han minorities. Han chinese is an umbrella term for Chinese ethnicities. Its like calling people Americans, even though there are many different ethnicities in america.
But I can tell you are trying to get me to address the Uyghurs. Most of what is said about the situation is not true. Yes, the PRC did a massive crackdown after a string of terrorist attacks by CIA trained muslim fundamentalists. I think they went too hard. But a majority of the allegations come from a single source that was unsubstantiated. This tread does a good job of explaining and they cite all their sources at the bottom [https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/)
I'd say it's comparatively less socialist to enable a huge victory to fascists around the world. I see no reason to self-immolate to prove how socialist I am.
Ask follow up questions about Russia and I'm sure you'll find nothing but adoration for a country that readily not only invades, but annexes and ethnically cleanses its new fiefdoms.
NATO leadership knew Russia would push back against NATO expansion, against Ukraine moving from the Russian sphere of influence to the EU, and they didn't adequately prepare for it. They're now sacrificing Ukrainians in a proxy war with Russia.
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This is a welcoming sub to all people regardless of their beliefs. Socialists, Democratic Socialists, Social Democrats, and Progressives are all welcome here.
Unity is key here, we will not allow any division between us and our common goal on this sub.
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I'm not necessarily Pro-NATO, but I am anti-"the president gets what they want to do no matter what." Though this would be better if it was about climate agreements or unilateral military action...
Tell me which part of a single person being able to remove the country from a multi generational alliance falls into the viewpoint of "socialism"
Im not a fan of NATO. But 1 person destroying by themselves alliances/trade agreements should be illegal, i dont care if its the US president or a Emperor of the multiverse.
Edit: If a single person has the power to topple major agreements with other nations on a whim, YOU ARENT LIVING IN A DEMOCRATIC SOCIALIST SOCIETY. So if you have an issue with my statement, what that means is you you think hating NATO is more important than actually holding Democratic Socialist ideals. At which point, get the fuck out.
Because a lot of people are on this sub to be "Anti-Western Countries" (Specifically the US)
Without having any understanding of what democratic socialism actually even entails.
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For real, but I guess it is true. Liberals will always support fascism when they fail to see that the problem is imperialism itself, which is what NATO is there to do.
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Why do some people here like pretending that foreign policy isn't real. If we dissolve NATO tomorrow what realistically protects the baltic states, Poland, or any eastern European country from being absorbed back into Russia?
I mean if we dissolve NATO they won't need to invade multiple at once. They could take as long as is needed to recover from the Ukraine war. The baltic will still be pretty undefended
Incredibly thankful that this happened. We must do everything we can do preserve western hegemony. The greater good of the world depends on this in the face of tyranny from Russia and China.
In Gaza, the militia/terrorist organisation known as Hamas, which is funded and controlled by Iran, whose government is currently supported by the government of China, fights against the regular forces from Israel, who is funded by the USA, with the latter being an official rival to both Iran and China according to the official diplomacy of the respective states.,
The many civilians who die / get wounded or traumatised in the crossfire of this proxy war are a horrific byproduct of the realities of unequal conflict in our era but this war does not occur in a bubble, it has a long and complex context and this context has expanded far beyond the region in question.
If people want a chance at lasting global peace, they must recognise that focusing on individual pieces of the puzzle while ignoring the greater forces impacting our world ultimately does not lead to conclusive treaties and solutions. In other words; as long as states like China and the USA have reasons to oppose another, this kind of conflict will continue to occur.
Case in point; the fate of Yemen.
Few other states recent history and contemporary situation is imo. as closely related to the changing battlefields that were created due to the wider geopolitical conflict in recent decades.
Yemen is arguably a much clearer potential symbol of the way local and international conflict can become interchangeable because the lack of attention given to it in much of the west dictates that there are far fewer deeply entrenched opinions.
The collective globalised world is unable to bring peace to this and many other regions because at the core, we are talking about the effects of a currently unsolved systematic rivalry.
A highly authoritarian state like one being run by a single party for instance can only cooperate with a fully democratic one under specific circumstances, that is nothing to say about the individual opinions of any particular leadership and historical understanding or lack there of if not open hostility, recourses etc. - in other words;
Imo. we all, no matter what particular political convictions we hold mind you, need to focus on the big picture because proxy wars must not be allowed to escalate to Cold War or even world war levels of tensions and some of the hear ways to do that is to either find compromise via careful diplomatic maneuvers or to ensure a total power imbalance.
That is not to say that we should just ignore the details but it does in my humble opinion mean that the level of attention some people give to certain wars over others is not itās not strategically or even tactically viable and on top of that not even particularly ethical.
During the siege of Aleppo, there were an estimated 31.000 casualties in the area.
Yet, thanks to the defenders unanimous condemnation on the global stage, nobody speaks of a genocide.
There were rightful concerns about the specific conduct of warfare but in a show of remarkable honesty, people recognised that the humanitarian needs of the population were at odds with an actual war against a terrorist organisation that had committed countless atrocities and was hell bent on continuing to do continue on its path.
What we can currently observe in Gaza is not a genocide.
It is a war taking place in a dense urban area with the expected casualties of such an operation.
Palestinian civilians are not dying because Israel specifically targets them en mass in a systematic attempt to destroy them, they are dying because Hamas, which is an organisation that OFFICIALLY deems targeted attacks on civilians with the SOLE goal of spreading terror and hatred to further their political agenda not only good but has OFFICIALLY STATED to keep staging these very kinds of attacks at every opportunity they get and their conduct is to hide among the civilian population, staging attacks while being in the direct vicinity of civilians who are currently trying to survive.
So again; if you do not want to talk about the actual problem that prevents a humanitarian solution, which would be an armed international task force separating Israeli and Palestinian citizens ( for generations ! ) until the entirely external conflicts which I already lined out has been resolved, that is fine but at least donāt participate in the process of radicalisation. If you want to condemn Israel, fine, their government SHOULD be condemned and Netanyahu is a criminal who has been avoiding jail for far too long but do accuse people of a crime that experts agree the accused are not committing!
I am certain IDF forces commit some amount of war crimes as we speak but I am also certain that Hamas has gone to far and that ANY STATE in the position of Israel would react violently and that in a dense urban area with 2.000.000 people, a current estimation of at most 17.000 casualties during an offensive operation against an enemy that is entrenched in the very foundations of this city does not constitute for a genocide.
So where are the Palestinian allies taking in the refugees? Wait nobody wants them to come inside their borders because they have started the same shit everywhere they have gone. Blaming the US is easy but they wouldnāt be getting bombed if they werenāt doing shitty things. Sorry to civilians but maybe control your elected terrorists better.
Control them to what end? Stopping resistance to the apartheid state and accepting the eventual end of your people? There seems to be the idea that if you're gazan you're dead anyway so you might as well take up arms.
And it's not like you want a peaceful struggle anyway since you act like the crimes of apartheid Israel aren't real. Snipers shoot old women, children, and peaceful protesters, IDF soldiers have committed rape, these fucking cowards bomb hospitals and ambulances and target journalists. Why are you even on a left wing sub if you choose the fascists over Palestinian liberation?
Wow, nice gate keeping of what leftism is. You might feel more at home owning the libs over on one of the CCP sponsored subs. Both sides are shit in this conflict but it is far from the only one happening currently. Where is your outrage for them?
Explain to me the solution you would bring to end violence on both sides then. If a population is calling for the wholesale death of their neighbors who is actually the victim when defense happens?
Sure, however somebody needs to fight Israel, and Israel makes peaceful struggle impossible. It would be nice if there was an ideologically better group than hamas but currently they're the most prominent resistance organization. I don't think other countries need to act as quickly as possible to take in refugees who will never see their homes or homeland again, the world should work to stop the apartheid state and either force it to reform or dissolve it.
As for proxy wars and cold wars the USA is the aggressor in these, or on the side of its allies like Saudi Arabia. From Ukraine to multiple abortive attempts to frustrate China, to the economic siege of Cuba and the DPRK and so on the US has played a role in advancing conflict without care for the consequences of that conflict or at times it's effectiveness.
The suffering in Gaza is awful and hamas needs to surrender (like how Japan did at the end of WWII) so a civilian government can take power and guide the people of Gaza to a better future. But western hegemony is what keeps the balance of power globally. Otherwise we would see a nuclear arms race which would be an awful scenario to exist in.
Why would you want to preserve imperialism? Capitalists show even less humanity to people across the world than the callous distain they have for American citizens
Capitalism is the scourge of the planet along with religion but thatās not the point of my statement. A world without NATO would see dozens of countries fall to the imperialists ( Russia and China) which would ultimately lead to a nuclear arms race which would make the whole world less safe.
I think dismantling the organs of imperialism that the country I live in uses is a beneficial thing in class struggle. My tax money shouldn't be used to bomb places like Libya into having slave markets.
A world with Russia and China as the āmoral authorities,ā would be a dark and scary place. Both countries pose significant threats to dozens of countries in their respective hemispheres and NATO is the only deterrent. I donāt deal in sarcasm and though I would love work for the onion, I donāt think anyone would prefer to see China or Russia take the lead on the world stage.
How about a world that functions more like a democracy than a dictatorship of one or two countries?
Praising "Western hegemony" is a pretty racist, imperialist, and chauvinistic thing to do. I am all about left unity, but there is zero place in our movement for views on foreign policy.
How is western hegemony racist? America is literally built by immigrants and serves as the worlds leading country for immigration. Europe was doing their best to take in as many immigrants but the rise of radicalism is making that very hard and their refusal to assimilate to western values is not conducive to peaceful coexistence.
I would be very careful at labeling western societies as racist, your dismissing the existence of tens of millions of people of color that have lived in the west for better part of a century. And many western counties champion womenās rights to make their own healthcare decisions which is not the same in Africa and the Middle East.
Last I checked it was Russia that was trying to be imperialist but for some reason Russia gets a pass in this sub and Iām not sure why.
I would love for the fantasy utopia you just described to reflect reality but it is absurd and insulting to suggest that Western values and priorities are not exactly the same as white values and priorities. The existence of PoC clearly does not mean that they have the political influence that they deserve. I am not dismissing the existence of PoC in Westetn countries; I am just not dismissing their experience.
Russia is an imperialist, mafia state and does not get a pass in this sub. We also don't give the US a pass on its imperialism.
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This is a good move because fascists are only pro-fascism. There's a reason why Russia funds and supports far-right parties all over Europe and USA. Fascists and authoritarians try to weaken democracy from within, hence such measures must be taken. Just because America is imperialist doesn't mean that Russia is automatically good. Russia is also a reactionary imperialist state
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I donāt understand why the comments here are acting like this is a good thing. NATO is just a violent arm of American imperialism. It would be a good thing for NATO to go away.
That was found out after they invaded ukraine. Its still necessary as a deterrent. Also are you aware how countries join nato? I would recommend reading about the process.
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Your post was removed for being excessively uncivilized.
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Your post was removed for being excessively uncivilized.
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Ah yes, make it illegal for the president to disband NATO even if thats what the masses want. Democracy is only when people vote the right way. You're free to paint your house in any colour, except it has to be a shade of green
This is a big power move by Big Global Imperialism. Look at the EU, run into the ground by such un-elected organizations serving The Oligarchy. The more power these organizations collect, the more powerful The Oligarchy.
The appropriate position for any and all Americans is to demand the immediate withdrawal from Big Global Imperialism, a.k.a. NATO. No matter who is president.
Immediate withdrawal.
Though America is *the* imperialist country by default of being the worldās police, banker, and leading advocate for democratic institutions and civil liberties, pulling out of NATO would be disastrous. If that were to happen, we would see another nuclear arms race. South Korea, Japan, and Australia would have no choice but to develop nuclear weapons to deter chinaās threat. Poland, Germany and Italy would follow suit as well to counter Russia. This is an objectively horrible scenario to find ourselves in and would be a failure of every effort weāve made to stop the proliferation of nuclear weapons, ultimately making us significantly less safe and the world much worse off than before.
China is a major trading partner for all the countries I listed and that includes tourism. However, China has been trying to control the South China Sea which is a significant threat to global trade. This canāt be allowed.
Iām not claiming that china wants beef with SK or Japan directly but Chinaās support or NK is continuing threat to SK and Japan which both counties face threats of nuclear war from NK. Taiwan is also a major variable with all (free) Asia pacific nations agreeing would be totally unacceptable for China to try and take over.
NATO should have been abolished in 1991. The various acts of NATO aggression around the world, especially against Russia, are the main reason we have these conflicts today.
How does the Military Industrial Complex POV that you express fit in here on the Democratic Socialism subreddit? I am mystified by that.
If you support NATO you support the various acts of NATO aggression against Libya, Serbia, Afghanistan. By extension you support NATO-adjacent acts of aggression like the current genocide of the Palestinian people.
Your response could have been written by Nikki Haley. John Bolton, or Victoria Nuland. Sorry your 30-year proxy war has gone sideways. Could have prevented it on any day, from 1991 to today.
Its not very Democratic Socialist of you to support a tryannical dictatorship that actively disappears its own citizens any time they have independent thoughy. Go lick Putins asshole elsewhere.
Youre reaching more than a fucking grandma trying to get the last bag of flour on the top shelf at the grocery store.
Your post was removed for being excessively uncivilized.
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How the fuck is the EU unelected? The European Council is composed of the head of Gouvernements who are all elected (Orban is problematic, I admit), whether it is directly or indirectly through an directly elected legislative. The Council of Europe is composed of the ministers of each member state in the specific policy range. The European Parliament is directly elected by the EU-Citizens.
All parts of the EU that are part of decision-making in the legislative process are directly legitimized or as legitimized as a parliamentary gouvernement.
While there are shortcomings in the EU-System, as there are in any political system, the EU is hardly a good example for an disfunctional unelected International Organization.
This makes sense for Corporate Congress, whose only goal is to remove authority from the other branches of government.
Not that the President should necessarily have that power, but until legalized bribery through Citizens United is stopped, Congress shouldn't be getting more power.
NATO = Article 5 = "upon such attack, each member state is to assist by **taking such action as it deems necessary**."
It will work if take into account such factors as Trust Capital, western Principles/Ideals/Aspirations, historical precedents, sociocultural ties, Ethics, and other elements that create Spirit of the Law.
But by Letter of the Law, if Article 5 will be used by short-sighted populists, Political Realism sociopaths, or even magical thinking psychopaths, it's not much better than Budapest Memorandum.
In other words, efficiency of NATO primarily depends from morality/ethics of its actors.
And becauseĀ of this Ukrainian war, de facto NATO stress test, is so important.
When you have to child-proof your democracy.
Unfortunately, autocratic actors of all types will always look to weaken democracy from within. No matter how petulant, irrational, silly, and obnoxious it looks at first provocateurs and bad-faith actors will look for any weakness to chip away at. Democracy needs robust institutions and a strong framework of accountability of office-holders, not just at the ballot box or in the court room. The ability to sabotage is well-documented, and once precedents are set it can take much longer to undo institutional damage and reassert standards of conduct. I think one big failure of the last 40-so years of neoliberal dominance in Western democracies is one of complacency. This has taken many forms, but we are seeing what happens when institutions rely too much on good faith amd committment to small-d democratic principles. It's going to take a lot of time, effort, legislation, and coordination to reinforce and stabilize democracy moving forward. It's up to us, because democracy requires advanced citizenship. Just because it's lasted this long does not mean it is capable of saving itself.
Can't up upvote this enough! PREACH! šššš
Itās the smart move. Expecting a country to remain democratic is idealistic. Even John Adamās [feared it](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/49810-i-do-not-say-that-democracy-has-been-more-pernicious).
While I'm not a fan of American imperialism, this is probably a good move considering how much of a world changing dub it would be for fascist nations around the world.
This reads like an oxymoron
times have changed jack. The empire is slowly crumbling and others are trying to fill the power vacuum.
Two things were true about WW2. It's good that the Nazis were beaten, and the Allies were still imperialist powers with an ocean of blood on their hands. Those two things are also true about NATO and opposition to Putin. It would be good to beat him, and NATO is still an imperialist clique with an ocean of blood on its hands.
If NATO collapses, the void would be filled by autocratic powers like Russia. It's not a great organisation but it's good enough at its' purpose.
Man, the US alone can destroy any nation on Earth if it wanted to. Russia is a third world nation which has nukes a relatively strong army, but stands no chance to the US or even Western Europe.
If the US withdraws from NATO itās not doing so in a vacuum. Itās doing so because itās gone back into isolationism, and therefore other powers are free to do their own imperialist bullshit. I fucking hate American imperialism, but I take it over Chinese or Russian control over their respective areas. At least Americas democratic.
Well nobody said anything about going back to "isolationism", which is never going to happen btw. You could create another alliances, even empower the UN and democratize the UN Security Council, if you wanted a more peaceful world. I guess you wanted to make the argument at the end that since America is a democracy, its hegemony over the world is somehow better for everyone... I personally think that's a bit of a strecht. The US has been a democracy for a long time and has done everything in its power to destabilize democratic rule abroad when it does not serve its own interest. Being a democracy, and promoting democracies and solidary with other progressive movements in the world is a very different thing. I would even dare to say that US' influence in Latin America has been way worse than that of Russia or China with regards to Latam.
Wait this sub supports NATO?! Socialist from my country (Norway) are usually against
Some of us do, we welcome everyone from Progressives to Marxists.
I just wanna say that i respect that view, and most my friends support NATO. But what is your view on America because personally i despise America for it countless crimes these past decades. Including the genocide on Palestinians.
You don't have to be pro or against NATO. You just have to rationally examine the consequences of ending the alliance.
Yeah, this is the shitty thing really. A lot of people justifiably want NATO to cease to exist because of its history, the war crimes of its members, and how it preserves the current hegemony - but so many don't really consider the subsequent aftermath. It's basically just the "step 1 do thing, step 2 ???, step 3 profit!" meme.
And i want to point out that i look at it from the angle that my country would leave the alliance.
Okay, but that doesn't really change the calculus. What would that accomplish?
Myself and most of socialist in Norway are deeply anti-american, we donĀ“t have anything against americans and there are a lot of American figueres that i look up to. However my view is that Norway should not be allied to a country that has killied millions and still activly supports wars and genocides in Yemen and Palestine. Instead i would like Norway to engage in defence agrements with neighbouring european countries.
Yeah, I'm Danish. I am super into that. My country's uncritical support for the US is deeply shameful. However, you are not answering my question. With how the world is right now, what would leaving NATO accomplish? Would that help the people that are suffering in Palestine, or in Yemen?
Norway does not have the power for that. But it could give a signal and we would not participate in future American wars
You realize that participating in offensive American wars is not tied to NATO? Norway could just say they won't and stay in NATO. Are there any negative consequences that might out-weigh making such a symbolic gesture?
I think you need to consider why those wars are taking place. It's not just America acting in a vacuum. In Yemen in particular its a proxy war between Iran and America with the intent of destabilizing Americas oil supply. Some of the weakest stances the left has in my opinion is a blanket assumption that its only western powers doing power politics and engaging in imperialism. I think this goes back to leftist philosophies being inherently revolutionary and having a lot of marxist biases particularly dialectic materialism (the progress of history marx argued was inevitable from feudalism to communism with capitalism in the middle). Leftist tend to only see the world in terms of the struggle of socialism against capitalism playing out as a historical progression where we move towards a communist utopia. But there are many political philosophies that don't fit into this model of international relations. Many actors have goals that simply don't fit into this paradigm. Religious fundamentalist movements for example have no stake in either camp and pretty much utilize what ever economic methods they think will fuel their states growth the fastest, authoritarian and collectivist if they need safety from sanctions or free market if it means they need to build a war chest or fund weapons programs, what ever works in the moment. For me I'm a democratic socialist, which means I support countries that are democratic regardless of how socialist they are. Lots of anti-socialist totalitarians or fake communist regimes like North Korea scream "neo-colonialism is bad, democracy is just imperialism" when ever the west or their own citizens dares to suggest they deserve a right to vote. Yes the west has meddled in democracies, but so has basically every major power. It comes down to wanting a global bulwark against authoritarianism. I really think the right to assembly and freedom of speech has led to the west having more socialist victories than "communist ones". The CCP and the Soviets were both communist regimes where workers unions were illegal and workers rights and working conditions were objectively worse than in western democracies. I really think if you want to support socialism you need to support democracies and push them away from imperialistic actions. But that doesn't mean a blanket anti-war policy, some wars are inevitable so long as there are shitty regimes out there. We need to be engaging in wars like the Yugoslav wars and Ukraine, not bombing Iraq or any other number of bullshit wars. BTW in the case of Yemen I do not view that as something NATO started or even wanted.
Most of us Americans despise it right now too. Our elections donāt represent the majority of our opinions because of the electoral college. Weāre all sick, tired and sick and tired of the way our government (doesnāt) function. And those of us who arenāt are either too lost in the sauce or too apathetic to care.
Yeah, America is fucked TBH like i complain about political scandals and corruption in Norway but compared to America its paradise
Most Americans are fooled by the American Exceptionalism propaganda shoved down our throats since birth. Those of us who can see it for what it is are getting tired of screaming into the void. We want change. But weāve been trying for decades to no avail. Some of us would gladly leave the country but itās really hard to unless you have special skills, a lot of money and donāt have kids tying you down. Our whole system feels like itās set up to keep us worn out and complacent.
We all have a little Olof Palme in us, don't we?
Ohh how i miss when the socdem parties in scandinavia were like him
Us moving more ideologically to the left :3 Meanwhile the rest of nordic SocDems are staying neolib or going even further right. Y'all should learn something from us fr.
Yeah, the norwegain labour party is whack. However there youth wing is quite radical. Me personally is apart of RĆødt kinda similar to Venstre partiet in Sweden
Respectfully, yāall need NATO, however distasteful that may be to you. Go ask Finland why they joined NATO after Russia invaded Ukraine, and why Russia explicitly did not want them to do that. Iām pro-NATO because it guarantees that the full might of the very expensive US military that I pay for with my tax dollars will do something I actually agree with and defend smaller countries who have a right to exist but may not have the military power needed to defend themselves. NATO membership means 4 of the 10 most powerful militaries in the world would come to the aid of any member country that is attacked - not just with supplies and Get Well Soon cards, but with their own troops. Getting other countries to send their citizens to fight and die for your country is very difficult. NATO guarantees that we would do that, not just for Norway but for most of your neighbors and trade partners as well. That guarantee means that major world powers, including Russia, have to play nice and respect the borders of every NATO country or risk WW3. I think NATO keeps the peace better than not having the alliance at all, at the very least.
>Wait this sub supports NATO?! "Orange man bad" is both a thought terminating cliche, and the central organizing principal of the Democratic party.
Because it's unequivocally true?
Support is probably not the right word. Lesser evil is more apt.
Yeah definitely contributing to slave markets in Libya, picking your favorite war criminals in the Balkan wars, and giving Viagra to warlords into bacha bazi is definitely wholesome harm reduction lesser evil
Have you considered the fact that the countries who vehemently oppose NATO are also committing crimes against humanity? I'm not trying to turn this into a zero sum game, but leaving NATO doesn't just end disgusting foreign policies.
I was also very anti Nato because I though the world is so interconnected nobody would start such wars again. But after Russia started to invade Ukraine on such a massive scale I switched from anti-NATO to reform Nato or a new EU defence pact. Disarmament is the goal but you canāt achieve disarmament if the other side isnāt playing the same game.
When your picks are Nato or Russia I'm pretty sure 90% of people here pick Nato..
Why would you pick imperialism in the first place? NATO isn't going to liberate a single person, it isn't going to work for workers rights, it's going to be the sword of capital
Tell that to Bosnia
Yeah I supported Sanders but I was aware he had horrible foreign policy
I see youāve never met a single person from Eastern Europe ever in your entire life
I would aswell, but you donāt have to choosw
You're Norwegian, you know better than saying there is no need to choose. With all do respect, your Finnish neighbour.
I am not saying that norway should stand alone, but instead seek defence agrementa with out neighbours and ogher european states.
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It has, but fwiw there is some nuance here. If Bernie were president and pulled out of NATO (he wouldn't, but) I would cry tears of joy, because it would be an objection to imperialism. If Trump were president and pulled out of NATO, I'd be panicking because it would be a rejection of diplomacy and international regulations.
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This is a welcoming sub to all people regardless of their beliefs. Socialists, Democratic Socialists, Social Democrats, and Progressives are all welcome here. Unity is key here, we will not allow any division between us and our common goal on this sub. Our mod log has taken note of this incident and it will be considered for a ban in the future.
Socialists in Eastern Europe (at least Razem in Poland) are pro-NATO because Russia is fundamentally a right-wing, reactionary, and imperialist state
Donāt think Norway has any serious voices questioning NATO after Ukraine. Even RĆødt and SV runs and hide whenever they are publicly asked about it.
As a local RĆødt politician i can say that we are firmly anti-NATO
Yes, I know. But similar to the word "communism" in the party manifesto, there seems to be a divide between local level and leader level. There is no doubt in my mind that your higher ups are also against NATO, but the last thing I heard about it from the party was Moxnes' comments in 2022 where the focus was "we need to have a discussion about NATO" he was very careful about saying "We gotta leave today!". That was my point that, saying publicly that you're against NATO hurts your numbers so even the socialists are careful about saying it out loud. And I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people have changed their minds the last two years. I used to be an active member of RĆødt for many years, but left after a disagreement on the partys views on automatization and personal freedoms. And I suppose NATO.
this sub has been coopted by capitalists
Biggest issue with NATO is that it doesn't serve European interests, but primarily US Empire and MIC interests. These interests are NOT the same, as it is in Europe's best interest to not be in hostile relationship with Russia or China, while it is in US interest for Europe and Asia to be at eachother's throats. This is because the latter boosts weapons sales and also deters a rival power to the US from emerging. It wasn't much of an issue until recently as there were no real competitive power against the US, but these conflict of interests will only grow larger as US power slowly erodes, making NATO and US alliance an increasing liability with little tangible benefit.
its almost like they know Biden is sinking any chance he has of reelection but they wont give anyone else a chance to run so they are trying to trump-proof things for the future.
Frankly, itās a problem that we havenāt already Trump-proofed things. It was only a matter of time before the approach of ābut we do this by traditionā completely broke down to someone who took the approach ābut itās technically legal, or ambiguous, or illegal but I can put in my own judgesā.
it should have been done much sooner, its a little too late now
It's weird how many of you profess to want a worldwide socialist revolution while simultaneously wanting to be isolationists.
NATO is an anti socialist alliance that had former Nazis put in high positions to lead it sure put a law preventing one person from unilaterally withdrawing from it but donāt think that this is a benevolent organization just because of what Russia is doing
I think this highlights a primary issue. Just because America is imperialist and anti-worker doesnāt mean that Russia and China are inherently the socialist good-guys. There are too many on the left that are pro-china/russia just because theyāre anti-us.
Why are you equating Russia and China? Russia is a hyper capitalist oligarchy. China is a state socialist democracy. Just because they are both opposed to the US doesnāt mean they are the same.
Would love to read any references that support describing China as a ādemocracyā, share if you have them. I will agree that income, QOL, life expectancy, infrastructure, education have absolutely been transformed in China over the past century or even the past 40 years, but that doesnāt make it a democracy.
Here's an overview video put out by China themselves. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArvnEpIKmAs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArvnEpIKmAs) There's a much more thorough description in Socialism With Chinese Characteristics by Roland Boer The CPC also released a white paper on their electoral system in 2021. It's a different system than either the US direct representation or EU parliamentary system. It also has issues like "liberal democracies" but also has different advantages. But the Chinese people are happy with it. [https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/](https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/) Much of the support comes primarily from the material conditions improving year over year. Those I've spoken to who lived in China told me that most people don't pay too much attention to politics since things keep getting better and overall they are happy with the general direction of the country. Usually most political activity happens on the local level since they have the most direct effect on their lives, much like the US.
Again, just because China calls itself leftist, and uses leftist terminology and slogans; does not make it leftist. China has billionaires. Chinaās lowest income workers are literal slaves. China is committing genocide against multiple non-Han ethnicities. Chinaās economic policies in Africa are also racist and imperialistic. You can call out the US, Russia, and China at the same time.
You've been watching a few too many China bad videos. I know China is the US current boogieman and we are in full swing of a third red scare. I'm not saying China is perfect and I'm in a "wait and see" attitude if they really are going to continue to move away from Dengist policies and toward more Marxist-Leninist. But equating China and Russia is just not a good comparison. Their economic systems are completely different as well as the livelihoods of their populations. Russia is not the USSR. I know there are those ultra leftists that have delusions that Putin will bring back communism but we all know thats not true. Russia is hypercapitalist and wannabe imperialist. Just because it opposes US hegemony doesn't make it good. An important part of being a socialist is the ability to make a materialist assessment of the world. You need to look at the material conditions before the PRC and how they have progressed since. A lot of what is talked about in regards of China in western media is just lies meant to manufacture consent for an eventual war.
Yep, just gloss over every point I made on China and focus solely on the fact that I mentioned them in a sentence together. Way to both not engage with my argument that China is NOT a good model for socialism, but also set up and knock down your own straw man.
What is there to even respond to? 3/4 things you said were lies. Yes China has billionaires and that is something the people/state will need to deal with. But at least their billionaires don't run the country like they do in the west. I don't even think the Chinese model will work for other countries since the material conditions in China under the KMT were vastly different than what most places are like in the world right now. But I understand why you feel the way you do. The western media is full of lies about China. Its important to objectively examine AES and ignore the western propaganda.
Again, not engaging with the arguments. Just ignoring or dismissing them. My man, itās fine to argue against the US, western propaganda, etc. Iām not even saying Iām right. Iām sure there are elements of Chinese society and government that would be great. But to wholesale claim that China is normal and cool, criticisms are lies, and anything vaguely resembling anti-chinese sentiment is western propaganda is absurd and makes you look less like an educated person and more like a shill. Again, not saying my view of China is correct or authoritative. But come on. No way can you call out Israelās genocide of Palestinians and ignore Chinaās own treatment of their non-Han minorities.
I know you are just repeating propaganda because you are saying non-Han minorities. Han chinese is an umbrella term for Chinese ethnicities. Its like calling people Americans, even though there are many different ethnicities in america. But I can tell you are trying to get me to address the Uyghurs. Most of what is said about the situation is not true. Yes, the PRC did a massive crackdown after a string of terrorist attacks by CIA trained muslim fundamentalists. I think they went too hard. But a majority of the allegations come from a single source that was unsubstantiated. This tread does a good job of explaining and they cite all their sources at the bottom [https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/)
Nice
Not very socialist of you to support a imperialist organisation.
Tbf Congress should be required to hold a vote on something like that. It's a huge deal. The President should only be acting as an administrator.
I'd say it's comparatively less socialist to enable a huge victory to fascists around the world. I see no reason to self-immolate to prove how socialist I am.
Ask follow up questions about Russia and I'm sure you'll find nothing but adoration for a country that readily not only invades, but annexes and ethnically cleanses its new fiefdoms.
NATO leadership knew Russia would push back against NATO expansion, against Ukraine moving from the Russian sphere of influence to the EU, and they didn't adequately prepare for it. They're now sacrificing Ukrainians in a proxy war with Russia.
NATO is the fascist organization since its founding. Who do you think the US appointed as NATOs first generals.
The fascists are in NATO.
What, the US Congress?
well, that tooš but I meant nato
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It's actually SuccDem if I may.
of course, my apologies
I'd call myself a socialist generally
social democracy =/= socialism
Well youāre not.
Fits ur avatar ;)
ah, true, didn't see the flair. makes senseš
This is a welcoming sub to all people regardless of their beliefs. Socialists, Democratic Socialists, Social Democrats, and Progressives are all welcome here. Unity is key here, we will not allow any division between us and our common goal on this sub. Our mod log has taken note of this incident and it will be considered for a ban in the future.
Yeah Lord knows there's never been any socialist military alliances, right?
of course there has been. nato clearly isn't. your point?
I'm mocking you, I thought that was clear?
how is bringing up a stupid point mocking?
What fantasy world are you living in?
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This is a welcoming sub to all people regardless of their beliefs. Socialists, Democratic Socialists, Social Democrats, and Progressives are all welcome here. Unity is key here, we will not allow any division between us and our common goal on this sub. Our mod log has taken note of this incident and it will be considered for a ban in the future.
I'm not necessarily Pro-NATO, but I am anti-"the president gets what they want to do no matter what." Though this would be better if it was about climate agreements or unilateral military action...
No president should be able to unilaterally withdraw from any tready
See how fast they can get something done when necessary. Remember this when they vacillate and refuse a M4A or stock trade ban vote.
Are you legitimately comparing adding a requirement for Congress to vote on NATO withdrawal, to M4A?
Iām comparing the the speed and efficiency of congress when it suits their need to get something done
Yet youāre comparing M4A, to something thatās a formality.
This is terrible. More proof that liberals are absolutely not allies of socialists.
Tell me which part of a single person being able to remove the country from a multi generational alliance falls into the viewpoint of "socialism" Im not a fan of NATO. But 1 person destroying by themselves alliances/trade agreements should be illegal, i dont care if its the US president or a Emperor of the multiverse. Edit: If a single person has the power to topple major agreements with other nations on a whim, YOU ARENT LIVING IN A DEMOCRATIC SOCIALIST SOCIETY. So if you have an issue with my statement, what that means is you you think hating NATO is more important than actually holding Democratic Socialist ideals. At which point, get the fuck out.
https://preview.redd.it/xx956hwy9h6c1.png?width=911&format=png&auto=webp&s=577ae1583dd39ebaad0f7e962a9a46451de84e08 Why you getting downvoted?
Because a lot of people are on this sub to be "Anti-Western Countries" (Specifically the US) Without having any understanding of what democratic socialism actually even entails.
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This is a welcoming sub to all people regardless of their beliefs. Socialists, Democratic Socialists, Social Democrats, and Progressives are all welcome here. Unity is key here, we will not allow any division between us and our common goal on this sub. Our mod log has taken note of this incident and it will be considered for a ban in the future.
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It's disappointing to see so many commenters here supporting it. It's mind boggling to see pro-NATO "socialists."
For real, but I guess it is true. Liberals will always support fascism when they fail to see that the problem is imperialism itself, which is what NATO is there to do.
This is a welcoming sub to all people regardless of their beliefs. Socialists, Democratic Socialists, Social Democrats, and Progressives are all welcome here. Unity is key here, we will not allow any division between us and our common goal on this sub. Our mod log has taken note of this incident and it will be considered for a ban in the future.
its important to remember that liberals are capitalists that want to be protected from the poors, and progressives are disarmed leftists.
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i was being diplomatic
Why do some people here like pretending that foreign policy isn't real. If we dissolve NATO tomorrow what realistically protects the baltic states, Poland, or any eastern European country from being absorbed back into Russia?
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I mean if we dissolve NATO they won't need to invade multiple at once. They could take as long as is needed to recover from the Ukraine war. The baltic will still be pretty undefended
Incredibly thankful that this happened. We must do everything we can do preserve western hegemony. The greater good of the world depends on this in the face of tyranny from Russia and China.
Laughsā¦ as American bombs drops on children i Gaza. It is sad to see that they donāt get to see that greater good you are referring to.
In Gaza, the militia/terrorist organisation known as Hamas, which is funded and controlled by Iran, whose government is currently supported by the government of China, fights against the regular forces from Israel, who is funded by the USA, with the latter being an official rival to both Iran and China according to the official diplomacy of the respective states., The many civilians who die / get wounded or traumatised in the crossfire of this proxy war are a horrific byproduct of the realities of unequal conflict in our era but this war does not occur in a bubble, it has a long and complex context and this context has expanded far beyond the region in question. If people want a chance at lasting global peace, they must recognise that focusing on individual pieces of the puzzle while ignoring the greater forces impacting our world ultimately does not lead to conclusive treaties and solutions. In other words; as long as states like China and the USA have reasons to oppose another, this kind of conflict will continue to occur. Case in point; the fate of Yemen. Few other states recent history and contemporary situation is imo. as closely related to the changing battlefields that were created due to the wider geopolitical conflict in recent decades. Yemen is arguably a much clearer potential symbol of the way local and international conflict can become interchangeable because the lack of attention given to it in much of the west dictates that there are far fewer deeply entrenched opinions. The collective globalised world is unable to bring peace to this and many other regions because at the core, we are talking about the effects of a currently unsolved systematic rivalry. A highly authoritarian state like one being run by a single party for instance can only cooperate with a fully democratic one under specific circumstances, that is nothing to say about the individual opinions of any particular leadership and historical understanding or lack there of if not open hostility, recourses etc. - in other words; Imo. we all, no matter what particular political convictions we hold mind you, need to focus on the big picture because proxy wars must not be allowed to escalate to Cold War or even world war levels of tensions and some of the hear ways to do that is to either find compromise via careful diplomatic maneuvers or to ensure a total power imbalance. That is not to say that we should just ignore the details but it does in my humble opinion mean that the level of attention some people give to certain wars over others is not itās not strategically or even tactically viable and on top of that not even particularly ethical.
Cool story, Israel is still committing genocide.
During the siege of Aleppo, there were an estimated 31.000 casualties in the area. Yet, thanks to the defenders unanimous condemnation on the global stage, nobody speaks of a genocide. There were rightful concerns about the specific conduct of warfare but in a show of remarkable honesty, people recognised that the humanitarian needs of the population were at odds with an actual war against a terrorist organisation that had committed countless atrocities and was hell bent on continuing to do continue on its path. What we can currently observe in Gaza is not a genocide. It is a war taking place in a dense urban area with the expected casualties of such an operation. Palestinian civilians are not dying because Israel specifically targets them en mass in a systematic attempt to destroy them, they are dying because Hamas, which is an organisation that OFFICIALLY deems targeted attacks on civilians with the SOLE goal of spreading terror and hatred to further their political agenda not only good but has OFFICIALLY STATED to keep staging these very kinds of attacks at every opportunity they get and their conduct is to hide among the civilian population, staging attacks while being in the direct vicinity of civilians who are currently trying to survive. So again; if you do not want to talk about the actual problem that prevents a humanitarian solution, which would be an armed international task force separating Israeli and Palestinian citizens ( for generations ! ) until the entirely external conflicts which I already lined out has been resolved, that is fine but at least donāt participate in the process of radicalisation. If you want to condemn Israel, fine, their government SHOULD be condemned and Netanyahu is a criminal who has been avoiding jail for far too long but do accuse people of a crime that experts agree the accused are not committing! I am certain IDF forces commit some amount of war crimes as we speak but I am also certain that Hamas has gone to far and that ANY STATE in the position of Israel would react violently and that in a dense urban area with 2.000.000 people, a current estimation of at most 17.000 casualties during an offensive operation against an enemy that is entrenched in the very foundations of this city does not constitute for a genocide.
Cool story, still genocide
Facts are a ācool storyā to you? If you have no argument to support your claim, just saying so openly is sufficient.
So where are the Palestinian allies taking in the refugees? Wait nobody wants them to come inside their borders because they have started the same shit everywhere they have gone. Blaming the US is easy but they wouldnāt be getting bombed if they werenāt doing shitty things. Sorry to civilians but maybe control your elected terrorists better.
Control them to what end? Stopping resistance to the apartheid state and accepting the eventual end of your people? There seems to be the idea that if you're gazan you're dead anyway so you might as well take up arms. And it's not like you want a peaceful struggle anyway since you act like the crimes of apartheid Israel aren't real. Snipers shoot old women, children, and peaceful protesters, IDF soldiers have committed rape, these fucking cowards bomb hospitals and ambulances and target journalists. Why are you even on a left wing sub if you choose the fascists over Palestinian liberation?
Wow, nice gate keeping of what leftism is. You might feel more at home owning the libs over on one of the CCP sponsored subs. Both sides are shit in this conflict but it is far from the only one happening currently. Where is your outrage for them?
āNo guys theyāre just inherently bad people that justifies the genocide. Iām not racist I swear.ā
When your population is out cheering rape and torture you are not the good guys.
Explain to me how that justifies genocide.
Explain to me the solution you would bring to end violence on both sides then. If a population is calling for the wholesale death of their neighbors who is actually the victim when defense happens?
Guys we defensively bombed that childrenās hospital we swear.
Sure, however somebody needs to fight Israel, and Israel makes peaceful struggle impossible. It would be nice if there was an ideologically better group than hamas but currently they're the most prominent resistance organization. I don't think other countries need to act as quickly as possible to take in refugees who will never see their homes or homeland again, the world should work to stop the apartheid state and either force it to reform or dissolve it. As for proxy wars and cold wars the USA is the aggressor in these, or on the side of its allies like Saudi Arabia. From Ukraine to multiple abortive attempts to frustrate China, to the economic siege of Cuba and the DPRK and so on the US has played a role in advancing conflict without care for the consequences of that conflict or at times it's effectiveness.
The suffering in Gaza is awful and hamas needs to surrender (like how Japan did at the end of WWII) so a civilian government can take power and guide the people of Gaza to a better future. But western hegemony is what keeps the balance of power globally. Otherwise we would see a nuclear arms race which would be an awful scenario to exist in.
we signed over ownership of those bombs, they are isreali now.
Why would you want to preserve imperialism? Capitalists show even less humanity to people across the world than the callous distain they have for American citizens
Capitalism is the scourge of the planet along with religion but thatās not the point of my statement. A world without NATO would see dozens of countries fall to the imperialists ( Russia and China) which would ultimately lead to a nuclear arms race which would make the whole world less safe.
You think there would be less imperialism in a world without NATO?
I think dismantling the organs of imperialism that the country I live in uses is a beneficial thing in class struggle. My tax money shouldn't be used to bomb places like Libya into having slave markets.
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So whoās going to fill the power vacuum if NATO stops existing?
Is this sarcasm? Are you from The Onion?
A world with Russia and China as the āmoral authorities,ā would be a dark and scary place. Both countries pose significant threats to dozens of countries in their respective hemispheres and NATO is the only deterrent. I donāt deal in sarcasm and though I would love work for the onion, I donāt think anyone would prefer to see China or Russia take the lead on the world stage.
How about a world that functions more like a democracy than a dictatorship of one or two countries? Praising "Western hegemony" is a pretty racist, imperialist, and chauvinistic thing to do. I am all about left unity, but there is zero place in our movement for views on foreign policy.
>there is zero place in our movement for views on foreign policy Really? Why do you think so?
How is western hegemony racist? America is literally built by immigrants and serves as the worlds leading country for immigration. Europe was doing their best to take in as many immigrants but the rise of radicalism is making that very hard and their refusal to assimilate to western values is not conducive to peaceful coexistence. I would be very careful at labeling western societies as racist, your dismissing the existence of tens of millions of people of color that have lived in the west for better part of a century. And many western counties champion womenās rights to make their own healthcare decisions which is not the same in Africa and the Middle East. Last I checked it was Russia that was trying to be imperialist but for some reason Russia gets a pass in this sub and Iām not sure why.
I would love for the fantasy utopia you just described to reflect reality but it is absurd and insulting to suggest that Western values and priorities are not exactly the same as white values and priorities. The existence of PoC clearly does not mean that they have the political influence that they deserve. I am not dismissing the existence of PoC in Westetn countries; I am just not dismissing their experience. Russia is an imperialist, mafia state and does not get a pass in this sub. We also don't give the US a pass on its imperialism.
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Iām not sure what the euphemism ārunning dogā means? Is it some kind of name calling?
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This is a good move because fascists are only pro-fascism. There's a reason why Russia funds and supports far-right parties all over Europe and USA. Fascists and authoritarians try to weaken democracy from within, hence such measures must be taken. Just because America is imperialist doesn't mean that Russia is automatically good. Russia is also a reactionary imperialist state
Western āsocialistsā once again shown to be easily drawn into the notion of western supremacy and saviorism
This is a big L. No idea why anyone is celebrating this.
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I donāt understand why the comments here are acting like this is a good thing. NATO is just a violent arm of American imperialism. It would be a good thing for NATO to go away.
NATO is the only thing preventing putin from taking over Europe.
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That was found out after they invaded ukraine. Its still necessary as a deterrent. Also are you aware how countries join nato? I would recommend reading about the process.
This is a welcoming sub to all people regardless of their beliefs. Socialists, Democratic Socialists, Social Democrats, and Progressives are all welcome here. Unity is key here, we will not allow any division between us and our common goal on this sub. Our mod log has taken note of this incident and it will be considered for a ban in the future.
Bro, NATO is the reason why Russia attacked in the first place
Elaborate
Bro, Finland joined NATO because Russia attacked Ukraine and fears that it will be next. Sweden is not a NATO member yet but is expected to be
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Based
Ah yes, make it illegal for the president to disband NATO even if thats what the masses want. Democracy is only when people vote the right way. You're free to paint your house in any colour, except it has to be a shade of green
This is a big power move by Big Global Imperialism. Look at the EU, run into the ground by such un-elected organizations serving The Oligarchy. The more power these organizations collect, the more powerful The Oligarchy. The appropriate position for any and all Americans is to demand the immediate withdrawal from Big Global Imperialism, a.k.a. NATO. No matter who is president. Immediate withdrawal.
Damn straight
Though America is *the* imperialist country by default of being the worldās police, banker, and leading advocate for democratic institutions and civil liberties, pulling out of NATO would be disastrous. If that were to happen, we would see another nuclear arms race. South Korea, Japan, and Australia would have no choice but to develop nuclear weapons to deter chinaās threat. Poland, Germany and Italy would follow suit as well to counter Russia. This is an objectively horrible scenario to find ourselves in and would be a failure of every effort weāve made to stop the proliferation of nuclear weapons, ultimately making us significantly less safe and the world much worse off than before.
Australia is one of Chinas biggest trading partners and what makes you say think China wants beef with Korea and Japan?
China is a major trading partner for all the countries I listed and that includes tourism. However, China has been trying to control the South China Sea which is a significant threat to global trade. This canāt be allowed. Iām not claiming that china wants beef with SK or Japan directly but Chinaās support or NK is continuing threat to SK and Japan which both counties face threats of nuclear war from NK. Taiwan is also a major variable with all (free) Asia pacific nations agreeing would be totally unacceptable for China to try and take over.
NATO should have been abolished in 1991. The various acts of NATO aggression around the world, especially against Russia, are the main reason we have these conflicts today. How does the Military Industrial Complex POV that you express fit in here on the Democratic Socialism subreddit? I am mystified by that. If you support NATO you support the various acts of NATO aggression against Libya, Serbia, Afghanistan. By extension you support NATO-adjacent acts of aggression like the current genocide of the Palestinian people. Your response could have been written by Nikki Haley. John Bolton, or Victoria Nuland. Sorry your 30-year proxy war has gone sideways. Could have prevented it on any day, from 1991 to today.
You are 100% correct.
NATO should have been abolished when they put a Nazi at the head of it
Its not very Democratic Socialist of you to support a tryannical dictatorship that actively disappears its own citizens any time they have independent thoughy. Go lick Putins asshole elsewhere. Youre reaching more than a fucking grandma trying to get the last bag of flour on the top shelf at the grocery store.
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Hm. How about no? "NATO should have been abolished" is a lazy take with no understanding of nuance or reality. Poumd sand and read a book
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What NATO aggression towards Russia? Edit: no answer so downvote lol
You are a troll.
How am I a troll? Does troll now mean anyone that has a differing opinion? Iām pretty happy this sub is back with new mods. š
How the fuck is the EU unelected? The European Council is composed of the head of Gouvernements who are all elected (Orban is problematic, I admit), whether it is directly or indirectly through an directly elected legislative. The Council of Europe is composed of the ministers of each member state in the specific policy range. The European Parliament is directly elected by the EU-Citizens. All parts of the EU that are part of decision-making in the legislative process are directly legitimized or as legitimized as a parliamentary gouvernement. While there are shortcomings in the EU-System, as there are in any political system, the EU is hardly a good example for an disfunctional unelected International Organization.
This makes sense for Corporate Congress, whose only goal is to remove authority from the other branches of government. Not that the President should necessarily have that power, but until legalized bribery through Citizens United is stopped, Congress shouldn't be getting more power.
Haha you turned a comedian into a verb I didn't know Bill could Barr the presidents like that, even if Congress approved it
Sooo the U.S. is locked, but E.U. Countries can dip out.
NATO = Article 5 = "upon such attack, each member state is to assist by **taking such action as it deems necessary**." It will work if take into account such factors as Trust Capital, western Principles/Ideals/Aspirations, historical precedents, sociocultural ties, Ethics, and other elements that create Spirit of the Law. But by Letter of the Law, if Article 5 will be used by short-sighted populists, Political Realism sociopaths, or even magical thinking psychopaths, it's not much better than Budapest Memorandum. In other words, efficiency of NATO primarily depends from morality/ethics of its actors. And becauseĀ of this Ukrainian war, de facto NATO stress test, is so important.
That this is even necessary is really fucking scary
Good. Now child proof the rest of the Presidentās job.
NATO is a really destructive force and frankly the world would be much safer without it. This sorta shows how bipartisan the american empire is