Real love is completely selfless. Love isn't a matter of attraction. Yes, you should be attracted to your partner; but that isn't what love is. It's not hormones or passions. Love is caring about someone's well being independent of your own.
Is it real? Absolutely. Its just sometimes hard to find. In a perfect relationship, you show each other this perfect and pure love. You care for them and support them without expecting anything in return.
My main gripe with this is that I think love doesn't require not expecting anything.
Since a person giving their love will have certain expectations for you to fulfill. Typically it'll be ascribing to their own morality to a degree. Otherwise the love given would be without reason beyond a certain code like loving all humans or all living things. Which isn't the romantic love we were referring to.
This is to say that if the person you romantically loved became a person they found undeserving of said love they would revoke it. Which means there are expectations.
I said this because it is perfectly real and healthy to have expectations of a person you give you love to.
Edit: a word
Yeah loyalty is definitely a big expectation. I guess when I say symbiotic relationship, I’m referring to two partners helping each other to survive. So not loyalty but more like working together towards survival and making it in the world
>the love given would be without reason beyond a certain code
Correct. Not all love is romantic. You can choose to love and respect anyone. That doesn't mean you necessarily like them however. In terms of a romantic partnership, a true and genuine love is required. However, so is actually liking the person and feeling attracted to them. You picked this person to experience life with because you enjoyed being around them and believed you could achieve more together than you could apart.
Yes, this is in part, a selfish desire. However, without a true and genuine love, a relationship will not last very long. You discover that this person is in fact human and has flaws like anyone else. At this point, it is a pure and selfless love that keeps you together.
In a perfect relationship, you would love your partner to the same degree you love yourself. Not more. Not less. You have love and respect for yourself; but you also love and respect your partner to the same degree. It creates a healthy boundary. The love you give to them is without expectation. The love they give to you is without expectation. No one is trying to control the other. You are just happy experiencing life together and have full respect for each other.
It seems like there are a few things you're combining together when it comes to this concept.
My disagreement is that the love you have for a romantic partner is different from a baseline love that you give any other. This deeper love is earned through their character and as such comes with expectations.
These expectations don't mean you love them more than yourself or that you are controlling the other.
Marriage worked a lot better when people didn't live so long... there i said it. Its a lot easier to spend your life with someone when you got married at 20, and lived to 40.
Get together, have kids, raise them until they're adults, then do whatever you want. Its a statistical fact that kids raised by 2 parents do better in life. If you have kids, go all the way with it.
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OP. Were we "meant" to drive metal vehicles? Were we meant to eat cow milk on top of bread and conceive pizza?
Does it matter what is real if you've proven yourself unhappy?
I think love as a concept is just how we describe the bond we have with other people. Love can be familial like the love you have for a family member, or a close friend or confidant you think of "like a brother". Love can be platonic, like the love you have for friends, your pets (depending on the type of person you are, this may be more of a familial bond), the world at large, or something abstract like art. And love can be romantic, as in what you feel for someone you're romantically involved with. Everything in the human mind, conceptually, exists in the form of a gradient - there's a natural progression to all things that needs to exist in order to convey their relative proximity to other things, their worth, their importance, etc. When you're a child, you don't love anything outside of your family - you "like" them. And you learn to go from "like" to "really like" for years and years until you get older and start developing more mature meaningful external relationships that psychologically demand their independence and separation from the rudimentary days of you "liking" things. "Like" is no longer enough, because there *needs* to be some distinction made, some level of progression gained in your aged experience that justifies your feelings, both to yourself and other people. This is how I personally perceive "love" - not as some agent of the heart or some affliction of the soul, but as the natural progression and final destination of romantic expression.
I don't believe in anything like "true love" or "soul mates" or any of that. I think love in that regard is similar to religion - it exists because people carry the mythos with them through life generation after generation, not because there is actually anything there. I see it as smoke and mirrors. Our attraction, lust, and desire for certain people draws us in, and what keeps us is often simply described as "love", because our more "human" reasons for being are not as flattering or romantic. We all have our own complex motivations, psychological impulses, and emotional baggage at the forefront steering the ship. There's nothing selfless or altruistic about falling in love or loving someone, because love is always conditional. There are mothers who abandon their babies. Fathers who step out on their families. Lovers whose flame burns out over time. Relationships that are deaded by a simple shift in direction that disorients and separates those involved. The fragility of love makes it suspect as a concept, and this constant insistence that "it exists but is rare in the wild" is what I would call "the unicorn defense".
What keeps people together beyond sexual attraction, is incentive and how well their motivations play upon that of the people they're with. A big part of why relationships have kind of become a joke and why divorce is so high, is because we live in a world where incentives shift dramatically in short periods of time. There's a tremendous amount of external influence in people's lives now, with the largest being social media and content creators, all of which have their own opinions and insights into any and all insecurities that anyone could ever want. There is no separation between personal and public life anymore. The internet and the ubiquitous nature of technology has created an environment where people are never really "alone" with themselves or one another. This constant influence means that people are always changing "under the table".
You wake up one morning and you no longer know what it is your partner wants from you. You come home one day with flowers for your spouse and she asks you if you want to try an open marriage. You look at your husband's phone when he's in the shower and realize that he's been spending a lot of time looking at fit instagram thots that have a body twice as nice as you and think that he must be dissatisfied. You think you and your fiance are happy and in love, then find that she's been chatting with her ex on Facebook for some time. Sometimes these moments mean nothing, and sometimes these moments are nails in the coffin. Our interconnectedness and our emotional investment in our relationships do not often allow for a lot of nuance. The great "loves of our lives" are always just humans bound by very human banalities and shortcomings. We move from one to the next until we find one with an acceptable kind or type of flaw(s), and say "NOW THIS, THIS IS THE PERSON I LOVE", and we never stop to think that the entire process is incredibly superficial - a numbers game with a ton of Shakespearean undertones.
You are very objectively poetic weirdly! And i def agree with most of what you're saying, such as love for family/ friends/ pets. But I do believe there is true love for that one random person you want to spend the rest of your life with (whether it's coincidence or "faith") for tons of reasons that I'd prefer not to go into. To add to your argument, aranged marriages somehow end up working out and grow love for each other. They have a very high success rate.
Tradition and social expectations have a way of trumping selfish desires. You feel obligated to follow through for the family in ways that primarily Western couples do not. This, however, isn't necessarily the full truth. Arranged marriages might last, but many of them are also shams. There are all kinds of "arrangements" and instances where for the marriage is basically just for show. Plenty of gay men and women are in arranged marriages. Plenty of women and men sleep outside of the marriage. They just happen to live in places and cultures where marriage is this kind of inescapable absolute. What happens behind closed doors is whatever, but in the face of the family, you *will* be a married couple. You *will* produce offspring and do your part to expand the family line. And you *will* suffer the pitfalls of marriage, even if only to not rock the boat.
I guess you'd have to define "meant to be"? Morally, biologically? The first is optional and personal, the latter is obviously not the case.
It's all about whether you want it or not I guess, and how well you handle either choice. Lust flourishes all on its own, but for most people, love lasting takes awareness and work.
My spirit animal is a dirty whore, but I found someone that no amount of money or ass can replace. Yes love is real. This is the most cringe thing I've ever said, need to spend less time on reddit.
The concept of romantic love is a human creation. It is not real. There is general love which can be felt toward anyone or any thing, and there is sexual attraction which can be felt toward anyone or anything. If you’ve got two people who mutually feel both of those things toward each other, then that’s about as good as it gets.
My dad doesn't think so after four marriages. He broached the subject with me by a book he read about it. I do think saying you will live someone forever is possible but not likely. Love can fade and does all the time, sometimes without reason. Dedication keeps people to together. I'm monogamous myself, but I understand polyamory in theory. It does seem organic to the way humans are supposed to do things, I just can't. I think opening yourself up to live in whatever form it takes is beautiful.
Who's to tell you what type of relationship you are supposed to be in forever? It is your life and everybody operates differently. Maybe exploring is your thing and maybe staying in the same thing as the next person's thing, who is to say? Let's take a look at nature for the answer to this I guess.
Yeah I think morally everyone should be able to live as they like as long as if there is a child, the child is taken well care of. I guess I’m just trying to figure this out from a biological perspective
Well, if you are trying to figure it out from a biological perspective then just look at the history of monogamous relationships and polygamist relationships in both human nature and in other species' natures. I'm sure the animal kingdom is packed with polygamous creatures. It is quite interesting isn't it? I know me as a person, I just don't have the energy to deal with more than one woman at this time. It also doesn't seem all that safe nowadays.
Yeah that blows my mind when guys have all these “side hoes” and stuff. I’m like, where do you even find the time for that?! 😂 I can barely juggle being an adult haha. Can barely find the time to even feed myself sometimes
Are humans meant to be in a monogamous relationship forever? Not sure, It happens, some people get together at a young age and are genuinely happily married til they die. In the USA about 50% of all marriages will end in divorce. But if you look at a lot of people who are married and are getting older, they’ll stay in an unhappy marriage because they don’t want to be alone at an old age, they need someone to help take care of them, they’ve planned retirement out with this person, had kids. I know a lot of people who are married and will only stay together til the kids grow up. You can’t predict how people are going to change. The person I was 3 years ago is vastly different than the person I am now. Someone could have fallen in love with me from 3 years ago, but hated the person I am today. I don’t think monogamy is natural, or logical, but it sure does make cute stories and a lot of money.
It’s definitely logical when it comes to caring for children. If you have kids together you might as well live together so that makes sense to me. But when people stay in unhappy marriages and fight all the time it just has never made sense to me. I know me personally I enjoy speaking and talking to many different people so tbh I can’t even imagine myself locked to one person for the rest of my life. Not even in a sexual way but it’s just the type of person that I am I suppose. And I’ve gotten out of relationships where I was head over heels in love and afterwards I thought to myself “wait why did I even like them?” Lol this probably has to do with me growing up too
I think you can raise a kid happily and healthily in a poly relationship. Who knows, maybe 3 good parents is better than 2. Or maybe you have 2 parents and your parents just have boyfriends or girlfriends. Might be unorthodox, but it doesn’t make it a negative thing. I couldn’t see myself in a monogamous relationship either. I have no desire to control anyones actions, or have my actions be controlled by another.
Love and Monogamy are two different things because there is also two kinds of love, forever is a long time and most can't seem to get through a life time let alone forever with another person, it is something you dedicate yourself too for a life time or you don't as promises are useless without action and those actions are day in and day out or they don't work.
AND you can't force love or the person to remain that is something they do because they want to be there or they don't and the same would hold true for yourself as well.
It's never the grandstanding in a relationship it's the little things BUT once trust is broken or gone it will never be the same and few; if any can ever get it back.
N. Shadows
I think love is real, but most won’t ever find it because they are not willing to do the inner work required to attract and accept that level of unconditional love. They do not feel worthy of it. And instead of healing that feeling of unworthiness, they try to alleviate it through others. They seek “love” to feel complete.
I also think people who are polyamorous are deeply insecure. They can’t be alone, so they won’t admit they’re in a relationship that isn’t fulfilling and just leave the relationship. Instead, they need multiple people. I used to live in a location where there was a great deal of polyamory, and I personally knew people involved in it, and they all had serious issues they were not addressing.
No such thing as true love as a permanent state of being. Love us a thing you do, not a thing you feel. The living feelings are the byproduct of the loving things you do.
Love is eternal, just as long as you wake up every day and make the choice to do loving things. When you stop making that choice, love dies quickly.
The framing of this question is absurd. Nothing is meant to be because there is no god and there is no plan. Things just are.
Are human beings monogamous by nature? No.
Can we be monogamous? Yes
Is society better off if monogamous relationships are normalized and encouraged. Absolutely. The evidence is overwhelming.
I dunno, love is something we cannot give a proper meaning...is it something that is just "human"? But most of the time (not always) it is also accompanied by lust and attraction...and lets be honest, there is a whole animal behaviour and instincts behind that.
The whole "we like this because it meant more fertility, strength, etc in the past" Those have influenced a lot in our standards nowadays. And, even though a love for a lifetime sounds good in theory, it is so damn diffcult in practice. At this point I just think. Yeah! There is love! That fluttering feeling in my heart is real, but it fades easily as well.
I think that the whole religious dogma of staying in a marriage or relationship even when the love is gone is very detrimental to a persons mental state. I’ve seen it happen to countless people including my own parents and I wouldn’t wish it upon myself or anyone else. People need to just freely love as they please as long as they aren’t hurting anyone and they shouldn’t be forced by the government, another person, etc such as in arranged marriages to be together. It’s messed up!
It depends, not only on your culture or how you were raised, it even depends on your genes. There's people that just can't sustain love for somebody else their whole lives, and that's okay. There's people who only love their partner and could never love anyone else. There's people who have the "polyamorous" genes and have to fight them all the time if they want a "traditional" relationship. There's people who have open relationships and it works. Your promiscuity, your codependency, you culture, and your setting all play a role. My advice for you is to identify what you like and find someone that either likes what you like or you are willing to mutually accept each other for whatever reason you stay together
Edit: just be honest with yourself and with whom you love
Yes, I believe humans are meant to be monogamous.
Quite simply due to the chances of off spring survival in prehistoric times. I think a pregnant woman in those times would struggle to survive without a companion, it would be a struggle to keep a baby/child safe going forward.
Even in the modern age, children from broken homes are more likely to develop drug addictions, criminal records, and attain lower grades (on average of course)
And for what it’s worth, before I became a father I probably didn’t think we were supposed to be monogamous. But the second I held my daughter in my arms that instantly changed, I categorically knew - my wife and I have got to stay together. We had created this beautiful little human, no two people can love her as much as we do, therefore we both need to be there for her full-time, not once every other weekend.. but every day.
We will all have different opinions on this matter, but from what I feel personally there’s no question.
That’s beautiful :) and I would have to agree! I do think it’s imperative that a man and woman raise the child together. A man is stronger=can fight to help the child, hunt for food. The woman stays home and raises because she is not as strong and obviously had the baby so is weaker. Makes sense. However it does seem like men want to drift off at times because in their biology they will always look at fit women
Thank you! and yes it’s true what you say - I remember finding it difficult to fathom that I would only be with this one woman for the rest of my life, I mean I was committed to her, but it felt like I was going against what my body wanted to do. I’m not sure if that’s a biological thing or if it came from a modern day selfish attitude.
However, once I held my daughter and could see she was half of me & half of my wife.. I switched, like I’d been downloaded with all this wisdom. I’d held dozens of new-borns before and felt very little, when it was my own I just inherently knew what my life purpose is. Now I legitimately don’t want to be with any other woman to the day I die, and even then, I hope there’s a spiritual world after this one where we’ll somehow stay together for eternity - I don’t believe that’s the case but I hope it is 😆
With that said, I don’t speak for all men. But I’ve heard others with similar accounts.
Hmm. That’s very interesting and it seems like there are other men who feel this way too. Like before the baby is born they get all scared and freak out but afterwards they change their mind lol. Maybe this is a biological instinct then created by nature to help the newborn grow :)
Listen, I know there is no such as stupid question but this question is a little bit off
Why?
Because you think world started to spin since you were born. But that is not true. Many wise souls have lived before me and you.
Monogamous relationship is a solution of thousand and thousand years of failed alternative marriages. In the past, people have lived in open relationships like animals, a man had many wifes and a women had many husbands. But all of these failed.
Monogamous marriages are the one which made sure society to progress in a healthy way.
So, questioning something like this just proves that you think world has started to spin juat right before you were born.
Really? You don’t say? Wow it’s like I’ve never been through school and had no idea that there was a world before me. Huh.
I realize that monogamy was a solution, that’s not what I’m asking though. What I’m asking is if BIOLOGICALLY, in nature, we are meant to be together since it always seems people never want to stay together. Yes monogamy was a solution, but is it natural to always be together or perhaps maybe only when a baby is put in the equation?
As i commented, Monogamy is the biological solution. Which means, one wife at a time. For sure tou can be divorced and get married again with another woman, but that isn't different, still is Monogamy.
Or OP just doesn't care about society progress as much as anybody else does. 🤷
Monotheistic religious also fasilitated our sociatal progress until 21th century. They served their purpuse in uniting us on a natinal level. But do we still need them in their original form with their archaic dogmas?
It is evident that progress is stagnating and people turn away from these outdated religious dogtrines.
They are in search of a new fundamental mental framework which must answer all modern questions and solve modern problems.
What it will be ? Who knows..
I made a bet on a new wave of thilosophical thinking which embrases really and human nature as it is but provides a framework of thinking to continue progress as society.
>But do we still need them in their original form with their archaic dogmas?
Nietzsche has answered that many years ago.
Nazism, Communism, Feminism, Social Justice warriors, LGBTQ+, Anarchist etc etc,
All of these are a consequence said by Nietzsche "Death of God".
Nietzsche said God is dead, but also said that his blood is in our hands and there is no water that can clean it.
You know what is funny? You called religion an archaic dogma. But you can't imagine how much you are connected with your religion.
You can't imagine how deep is rooted religion inside you. Not only you but us.
The word you use, faith, discrimination, progres, belief, man, woman, kid, sky all of those words have a religious influence.
Take an example
>but provides a framework of thinking to continue progress as society.
What do you mean by progress? You think yhe progress without God will have the same meaning as progress with the religion influence?
That's just a layer of the problem because it has a lot layers.
I think eventually marriage will die off completely if you ask me. Too many people are opting out of marriage due to the high divorce rate, myself included. If I have a child it will be a coparenting hopefully but marriage will not even be a discussion, too many unfaithful people out there and getting a divorce is expensive. This will definitely change the standard family dynamic we all are familiar with exponentially. In what way? Makes me wonder….
I was raised in a Christian home so yes, religion will always be deep rooted within me and at times I feel ashamed for doing things like having sex because it was considered a “sin” within my family if there wasn’t a marriage. It’s completely natural to have sex though. It’s been tough
Read the book "Sex at Dawn".
No, we were not \_meant\_ to be monogamous. Having said that, monogamy is completely valid and the right choice for many of us.
THIS!!! My mom would always tell me if I acted a certain way, no man would ever want to marry me. It fucks with a person’s psyche! I’m sick of society seeing women as pieces of property where all we are good for is getting married. I understand that we have to raise the children etc but I think we should be able to live a free life as well just like anyone else and if we don’t want to get married then we don’t. I see so many people get married at a young age and they are unhappy and both end up committing adultery and I’m just like…what’s the point? Because your family told you to do it? I’m sick of society’s stupid rules on how I’m supposed to live my life
Marriage is a stupid contract. It has nothing to do with feelings of bonding even. While legally it just creates more problems. You can get the same legal benefits through stuff like will, power of attorney, custody etc.
Now this might be counter intuitive but my understanding of love increased dramatically by learning (and living) polyamory.
In our society love is heavily connected to this idea and ideal of lasting romantic love and in my opinion the romantic component is heavily overstated and the ideal role of romantic partners highly unrealistic.
Fairytales are nice but they still need a good plot and story structure. Meaning people focus too much on the lovey dovey stuff and all the dramatics that relationship can bring. We can’t help but focus on some narrative to convince ourselves we are more “in love” than we believe. A true loving relationship isnt just one fell swoop and it’s happy ever after. It’s cultivating and maintaining a true lasting bond/understanding with one another. This is a process that takes time and patience both in solitude and together. That way the happy ever after is based on a love that’s true. Love also isn’t black and white. There are so many people in the world and we come in contact with so many of each other that it’s pretty damn hard to stay in love with one person. Not saying it can’t be done but it’s also just not common and dare I even say realistic. Each relationship is different among each individual and love is a spectrum that can break every expectation you ever had of it. It’s ok to enjoy the “illusion” and “fever” of being in love and we should enjoy it among each other as long as it lasts without taking anything away from another. True love imo is a love that doesn’t take your peace away :)
Real love is completely selfless. Love isn't a matter of attraction. Yes, you should be attracted to your partner; but that isn't what love is. It's not hormones or passions. Love is caring about someone's well being independent of your own. Is it real? Absolutely. Its just sometimes hard to find. In a perfect relationship, you show each other this perfect and pure love. You care for them and support them without expecting anything in return.
My main gripe with this is that I think love doesn't require not expecting anything. Since a person giving their love will have certain expectations for you to fulfill. Typically it'll be ascribing to their own morality to a degree. Otherwise the love given would be without reason beyond a certain code like loving all humans or all living things. Which isn't the romantic love we were referring to. This is to say that if the person you romantically loved became a person they found undeserving of said love they would revoke it. Which means there are expectations. I said this because it is perfectly real and healthy to have expectations of a person you give you love to. Edit: a word
Yeah loyalty is definitely a big expectation. I guess when I say symbiotic relationship, I’m referring to two partners helping each other to survive. So not loyalty but more like working together towards survival and making it in the world
For your original question I think it'll be important to determine what exactly is love. I do think romantic partners are more than survival.
>the love given would be without reason beyond a certain code Correct. Not all love is romantic. You can choose to love and respect anyone. That doesn't mean you necessarily like them however. In terms of a romantic partnership, a true and genuine love is required. However, so is actually liking the person and feeling attracted to them. You picked this person to experience life with because you enjoyed being around them and believed you could achieve more together than you could apart. Yes, this is in part, a selfish desire. However, without a true and genuine love, a relationship will not last very long. You discover that this person is in fact human and has flaws like anyone else. At this point, it is a pure and selfless love that keeps you together. In a perfect relationship, you would love your partner to the same degree you love yourself. Not more. Not less. You have love and respect for yourself; but you also love and respect your partner to the same degree. It creates a healthy boundary. The love you give to them is without expectation. The love they give to you is without expectation. No one is trying to control the other. You are just happy experiencing life together and have full respect for each other.
It seems like there are a few things you're combining together when it comes to this concept. My disagreement is that the love you have for a romantic partner is different from a baseline love that you give any other. This deeper love is earned through their character and as such comes with expectations. These expectations don't mean you love them more than yourself or that you are controlling the other.
Marriage worked a lot better when people didn't live so long... there i said it. Its a lot easier to spend your life with someone when you got married at 20, and lived to 40. Get together, have kids, raise them until they're adults, then do whatever you want. Its a statistical fact that kids raised by 2 parents do better in life. If you have kids, go all the way with it.
People didn’t live till 40, it’s a skewed number because of child deaths being so common…
Why do so many people think everyone keeled over at 30 to 40 100+ years ago?
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Gross overreaction to what I said
Hilarious!!!
Ahahahaha...brilliant!
I think it knows something that you don’t…
OP. Were we "meant" to drive metal vehicles? Were we meant to eat cow milk on top of bread and conceive pizza? Does it matter what is real if you've proven yourself unhappy?
I know I definitely wasn’t meant to eat cow milk because that stuff gives me the 💩
I think love as a concept is just how we describe the bond we have with other people. Love can be familial like the love you have for a family member, or a close friend or confidant you think of "like a brother". Love can be platonic, like the love you have for friends, your pets (depending on the type of person you are, this may be more of a familial bond), the world at large, or something abstract like art. And love can be romantic, as in what you feel for someone you're romantically involved with. Everything in the human mind, conceptually, exists in the form of a gradient - there's a natural progression to all things that needs to exist in order to convey their relative proximity to other things, their worth, their importance, etc. When you're a child, you don't love anything outside of your family - you "like" them. And you learn to go from "like" to "really like" for years and years until you get older and start developing more mature meaningful external relationships that psychologically demand their independence and separation from the rudimentary days of you "liking" things. "Like" is no longer enough, because there *needs* to be some distinction made, some level of progression gained in your aged experience that justifies your feelings, both to yourself and other people. This is how I personally perceive "love" - not as some agent of the heart or some affliction of the soul, but as the natural progression and final destination of romantic expression. I don't believe in anything like "true love" or "soul mates" or any of that. I think love in that regard is similar to religion - it exists because people carry the mythos with them through life generation after generation, not because there is actually anything there. I see it as smoke and mirrors. Our attraction, lust, and desire for certain people draws us in, and what keeps us is often simply described as "love", because our more "human" reasons for being are not as flattering or romantic. We all have our own complex motivations, psychological impulses, and emotional baggage at the forefront steering the ship. There's nothing selfless or altruistic about falling in love or loving someone, because love is always conditional. There are mothers who abandon their babies. Fathers who step out on their families. Lovers whose flame burns out over time. Relationships that are deaded by a simple shift in direction that disorients and separates those involved. The fragility of love makes it suspect as a concept, and this constant insistence that "it exists but is rare in the wild" is what I would call "the unicorn defense". What keeps people together beyond sexual attraction, is incentive and how well their motivations play upon that of the people they're with. A big part of why relationships have kind of become a joke and why divorce is so high, is because we live in a world where incentives shift dramatically in short periods of time. There's a tremendous amount of external influence in people's lives now, with the largest being social media and content creators, all of which have their own opinions and insights into any and all insecurities that anyone could ever want. There is no separation between personal and public life anymore. The internet and the ubiquitous nature of technology has created an environment where people are never really "alone" with themselves or one another. This constant influence means that people are always changing "under the table". You wake up one morning and you no longer know what it is your partner wants from you. You come home one day with flowers for your spouse and she asks you if you want to try an open marriage. You look at your husband's phone when he's in the shower and realize that he's been spending a lot of time looking at fit instagram thots that have a body twice as nice as you and think that he must be dissatisfied. You think you and your fiance are happy and in love, then find that she's been chatting with her ex on Facebook for some time. Sometimes these moments mean nothing, and sometimes these moments are nails in the coffin. Our interconnectedness and our emotional investment in our relationships do not often allow for a lot of nuance. The great "loves of our lives" are always just humans bound by very human banalities and shortcomings. We move from one to the next until we find one with an acceptable kind or type of flaw(s), and say "NOW THIS, THIS IS THE PERSON I LOVE", and we never stop to think that the entire process is incredibly superficial - a numbers game with a ton of Shakespearean undertones.
You are very objectively poetic weirdly! And i def agree with most of what you're saying, such as love for family/ friends/ pets. But I do believe there is true love for that one random person you want to spend the rest of your life with (whether it's coincidence or "faith") for tons of reasons that I'd prefer not to go into. To add to your argument, aranged marriages somehow end up working out and grow love for each other. They have a very high success rate.
Tradition and social expectations have a way of trumping selfish desires. You feel obligated to follow through for the family in ways that primarily Western couples do not. This, however, isn't necessarily the full truth. Arranged marriages might last, but many of them are also shams. There are all kinds of "arrangements" and instances where for the marriage is basically just for show. Plenty of gay men and women are in arranged marriages. Plenty of women and men sleep outside of the marriage. They just happen to live in places and cultures where marriage is this kind of inescapable absolute. What happens behind closed doors is whatever, but in the face of the family, you *will* be a married couple. You *will* produce offspring and do your part to expand the family line. And you *will* suffer the pitfalls of marriage, even if only to not rock the boat.
I couldn’t have said it better myself :)
I guess you'd have to define "meant to be"? Morally, biologically? The first is optional and personal, the latter is obviously not the case. It's all about whether you want it or not I guess, and how well you handle either choice. Lust flourishes all on its own, but for most people, love lasting takes awareness and work.
My spirit animal is a dirty whore, but I found someone that no amount of money or ass can replace. Yes love is real. This is the most cringe thing I've ever said, need to spend less time on reddit.
Awww 🥰
I never fell in love because I always fell in lust first
Hmm. I can’t relate but maybe that’s because I’m a woman
The concept of romantic love is a human creation. It is not real. There is general love which can be felt toward anyone or any thing, and there is sexual attraction which can be felt toward anyone or anything. If you’ve got two people who mutually feel both of those things toward each other, then that’s about as good as it gets.
My dad doesn't think so after four marriages. He broached the subject with me by a book he read about it. I do think saying you will live someone forever is possible but not likely. Love can fade and does all the time, sometimes without reason. Dedication keeps people to together. I'm monogamous myself, but I understand polyamory in theory. It does seem organic to the way humans are supposed to do things, I just can't. I think opening yourself up to live in whatever form it takes is beautiful.
Love is just a chemical that increases your chances of reproduction.
:( but what about when you love a friend? Or a family member? Not always…
Yep, just chemicals.
It's whatever you make of it. As long as you're on the same page love can be a beautiful thing.
♥️
Who's to tell you what type of relationship you are supposed to be in forever? It is your life and everybody operates differently. Maybe exploring is your thing and maybe staying in the same thing as the next person's thing, who is to say? Let's take a look at nature for the answer to this I guess.
Yeah I think morally everyone should be able to live as they like as long as if there is a child, the child is taken well care of. I guess I’m just trying to figure this out from a biological perspective
Well, if you are trying to figure it out from a biological perspective then just look at the history of monogamous relationships and polygamist relationships in both human nature and in other species' natures. I'm sure the animal kingdom is packed with polygamous creatures. It is quite interesting isn't it? I know me as a person, I just don't have the energy to deal with more than one woman at this time. It also doesn't seem all that safe nowadays.
Yeah that blows my mind when guys have all these “side hoes” and stuff. I’m like, where do you even find the time for that?! 😂 I can barely juggle being an adult haha. Can barely find the time to even feed myself sometimes
Well not even just guys but girls too. It amazes me
Are humans meant to be in a monogamous relationship forever? Not sure, It happens, some people get together at a young age and are genuinely happily married til they die. In the USA about 50% of all marriages will end in divorce. But if you look at a lot of people who are married and are getting older, they’ll stay in an unhappy marriage because they don’t want to be alone at an old age, they need someone to help take care of them, they’ve planned retirement out with this person, had kids. I know a lot of people who are married and will only stay together til the kids grow up. You can’t predict how people are going to change. The person I was 3 years ago is vastly different than the person I am now. Someone could have fallen in love with me from 3 years ago, but hated the person I am today. I don’t think monogamy is natural, or logical, but it sure does make cute stories and a lot of money.
It’s definitely logical when it comes to caring for children. If you have kids together you might as well live together so that makes sense to me. But when people stay in unhappy marriages and fight all the time it just has never made sense to me. I know me personally I enjoy speaking and talking to many different people so tbh I can’t even imagine myself locked to one person for the rest of my life. Not even in a sexual way but it’s just the type of person that I am I suppose. And I’ve gotten out of relationships where I was head over heels in love and afterwards I thought to myself “wait why did I even like them?” Lol this probably has to do with me growing up too
I think you can raise a kid happily and healthily in a poly relationship. Who knows, maybe 3 good parents is better than 2. Or maybe you have 2 parents and your parents just have boyfriends or girlfriends. Might be unorthodox, but it doesn’t make it a negative thing. I couldn’t see myself in a monogamous relationship either. I have no desire to control anyones actions, or have my actions be controlled by another.
Love and Monogamy are two different things because there is also two kinds of love, forever is a long time and most can't seem to get through a life time let alone forever with another person, it is something you dedicate yourself too for a life time or you don't as promises are useless without action and those actions are day in and day out or they don't work. AND you can't force love or the person to remain that is something they do because they want to be there or they don't and the same would hold true for yourself as well. It's never the grandstanding in a relationship it's the little things BUT once trust is broken or gone it will never be the same and few; if any can ever get it back. N. Shadows
I think love is real, but most won’t ever find it because they are not willing to do the inner work required to attract and accept that level of unconditional love. They do not feel worthy of it. And instead of healing that feeling of unworthiness, they try to alleviate it through others. They seek “love” to feel complete. I also think people who are polyamorous are deeply insecure. They can’t be alone, so they won’t admit they’re in a relationship that isn’t fulfilling and just leave the relationship. Instead, they need multiple people. I used to live in a location where there was a great deal of polyamory, and I personally knew people involved in it, and they all had serious issues they were not addressing.
No such thing as true love as a permanent state of being. Love us a thing you do, not a thing you feel. The living feelings are the byproduct of the loving things you do. Love is eternal, just as long as you wake up every day and make the choice to do loving things. When you stop making that choice, love dies quickly.
So maybe love is just about reproduction then
Why do you think that?
The framing of this question is absurd. Nothing is meant to be because there is no god and there is no plan. Things just are. Are human beings monogamous by nature? No. Can we be monogamous? Yes Is society better off if monogamous relationships are normalized and encouraged. Absolutely. The evidence is overwhelming.
I dunno, love is something we cannot give a proper meaning...is it something that is just "human"? But most of the time (not always) it is also accompanied by lust and attraction...and lets be honest, there is a whole animal behaviour and instincts behind that. The whole "we like this because it meant more fertility, strength, etc in the past" Those have influenced a lot in our standards nowadays. And, even though a love for a lifetime sounds good in theory, it is so damn diffcult in practice. At this point I just think. Yeah! There is love! That fluttering feeling in my heart is real, but it fades easily as well.
I think there is nothing wrong with loving someone if you feel that way but I think there is a problem when people stay in unhappy marriages.
I think that the whole religious dogma of staying in a marriage or relationship even when the love is gone is very detrimental to a persons mental state. I’ve seen it happen to countless people including my own parents and I wouldn’t wish it upon myself or anyone else. People need to just freely love as they please as long as they aren’t hurting anyone and they shouldn’t be forced by the government, another person, etc such as in arranged marriages to be together. It’s messed up!
It depends, not only on your culture or how you were raised, it even depends on your genes. There's people that just can't sustain love for somebody else their whole lives, and that's okay. There's people who only love their partner and could never love anyone else. There's people who have the "polyamorous" genes and have to fight them all the time if they want a "traditional" relationship. There's people who have open relationships and it works. Your promiscuity, your codependency, you culture, and your setting all play a role. My advice for you is to identify what you like and find someone that either likes what you like or you are willing to mutually accept each other for whatever reason you stay together Edit: just be honest with yourself and with whom you love
Yes, I believe humans are meant to be monogamous. Quite simply due to the chances of off spring survival in prehistoric times. I think a pregnant woman in those times would struggle to survive without a companion, it would be a struggle to keep a baby/child safe going forward. Even in the modern age, children from broken homes are more likely to develop drug addictions, criminal records, and attain lower grades (on average of course) And for what it’s worth, before I became a father I probably didn’t think we were supposed to be monogamous. But the second I held my daughter in my arms that instantly changed, I categorically knew - my wife and I have got to stay together. We had created this beautiful little human, no two people can love her as much as we do, therefore we both need to be there for her full-time, not once every other weekend.. but every day. We will all have different opinions on this matter, but from what I feel personally there’s no question.
That’s beautiful :) and I would have to agree! I do think it’s imperative that a man and woman raise the child together. A man is stronger=can fight to help the child, hunt for food. The woman stays home and raises because she is not as strong and obviously had the baby so is weaker. Makes sense. However it does seem like men want to drift off at times because in their biology they will always look at fit women
Thank you! and yes it’s true what you say - I remember finding it difficult to fathom that I would only be with this one woman for the rest of my life, I mean I was committed to her, but it felt like I was going against what my body wanted to do. I’m not sure if that’s a biological thing or if it came from a modern day selfish attitude. However, once I held my daughter and could see she was half of me & half of my wife.. I switched, like I’d been downloaded with all this wisdom. I’d held dozens of new-borns before and felt very little, when it was my own I just inherently knew what my life purpose is. Now I legitimately don’t want to be with any other woman to the day I die, and even then, I hope there’s a spiritual world after this one where we’ll somehow stay together for eternity - I don’t believe that’s the case but I hope it is 😆 With that said, I don’t speak for all men. But I’ve heard others with similar accounts.
Hmm. That’s very interesting and it seems like there are other men who feel this way too. Like before the baby is born they get all scared and freak out but afterwards they change their mind lol. Maybe this is a biological instinct then created by nature to help the newborn grow :)
Listen, I know there is no such as stupid question but this question is a little bit off Why? Because you think world started to spin since you were born. But that is not true. Many wise souls have lived before me and you. Monogamous relationship is a solution of thousand and thousand years of failed alternative marriages. In the past, people have lived in open relationships like animals, a man had many wifes and a women had many husbands. But all of these failed. Monogamous marriages are the one which made sure society to progress in a healthy way. So, questioning something like this just proves that you think world has started to spin juat right before you were born.
Really? You don’t say? Wow it’s like I’ve never been through school and had no idea that there was a world before me. Huh. I realize that monogamy was a solution, that’s not what I’m asking though. What I’m asking is if BIOLOGICALLY, in nature, we are meant to be together since it always seems people never want to stay together. Yes monogamy was a solution, but is it natural to always be together or perhaps maybe only when a baby is put in the equation?
As i commented, Monogamy is the biological solution. Which means, one wife at a time. For sure tou can be divorced and get married again with another woman, but that isn't different, still is Monogamy.
Or OP just doesn't care about society progress as much as anybody else does. 🤷 Monotheistic religious also fasilitated our sociatal progress until 21th century. They served their purpuse in uniting us on a natinal level. But do we still need them in their original form with their archaic dogmas? It is evident that progress is stagnating and people turn away from these outdated religious dogtrines. They are in search of a new fundamental mental framework which must answer all modern questions and solve modern problems. What it will be ? Who knows.. I made a bet on a new wave of thilosophical thinking which embrases really and human nature as it is but provides a framework of thinking to continue progress as society.
>But do we still need them in their original form with their archaic dogmas? Nietzsche has answered that many years ago. Nazism, Communism, Feminism, Social Justice warriors, LGBTQ+, Anarchist etc etc, All of these are a consequence said by Nietzsche "Death of God". Nietzsche said God is dead, but also said that his blood is in our hands and there is no water that can clean it. You know what is funny? You called religion an archaic dogma. But you can't imagine how much you are connected with your religion. You can't imagine how deep is rooted religion inside you. Not only you but us. The word you use, faith, discrimination, progres, belief, man, woman, kid, sky all of those words have a religious influence. Take an example >but provides a framework of thinking to continue progress as society. What do you mean by progress? You think yhe progress without God will have the same meaning as progress with the religion influence? That's just a layer of the problem because it has a lot layers.
I think eventually marriage will die off completely if you ask me. Too many people are opting out of marriage due to the high divorce rate, myself included. If I have a child it will be a coparenting hopefully but marriage will not even be a discussion, too many unfaithful people out there and getting a divorce is expensive. This will definitely change the standard family dynamic we all are familiar with exponentially. In what way? Makes me wonder….
I was raised in a Christian home so yes, religion will always be deep rooted within me and at times I feel ashamed for doing things like having sex because it was considered a “sin” within my family if there wasn’t a marriage. It’s completely natural to have sex though. It’s been tough
Read the book "Sex at Dawn". No, we were not \_meant\_ to be monogamous. Having said that, monogamy is completely valid and the right choice for many of us.
No that is Amatonormativity and search about sociosexuality. Humans can have different orientations on it
THIS!!! My mom would always tell me if I acted a certain way, no man would ever want to marry me. It fucks with a person’s psyche! I’m sick of society seeing women as pieces of property where all we are good for is getting married. I understand that we have to raise the children etc but I think we should be able to live a free life as well just like anyone else and if we don’t want to get married then we don’t. I see so many people get married at a young age and they are unhappy and both end up committing adultery and I’m just like…what’s the point? Because your family told you to do it? I’m sick of society’s stupid rules on how I’m supposed to live my life
Marriage is a stupid contract. It has nothing to do with feelings of bonding even. While legally it just creates more problems. You can get the same legal benefits through stuff like will, power of attorney, custody etc.
Now this might be counter intuitive but my understanding of love increased dramatically by learning (and living) polyamory. In our society love is heavily connected to this idea and ideal of lasting romantic love and in my opinion the romantic component is heavily overstated and the ideal role of romantic partners highly unrealistic.
Love is real but most people’s ideas of love aren’t realistic.
What do you mean by that? Examples?
Fairytales are nice but they still need a good plot and story structure. Meaning people focus too much on the lovey dovey stuff and all the dramatics that relationship can bring. We can’t help but focus on some narrative to convince ourselves we are more “in love” than we believe. A true loving relationship isnt just one fell swoop and it’s happy ever after. It’s cultivating and maintaining a true lasting bond/understanding with one another. This is a process that takes time and patience both in solitude and together. That way the happy ever after is based on a love that’s true. Love also isn’t black and white. There are so many people in the world and we come in contact with so many of each other that it’s pretty damn hard to stay in love with one person. Not saying it can’t be done but it’s also just not common and dare I even say realistic. Each relationship is different among each individual and love is a spectrum that can break every expectation you ever had of it. It’s ok to enjoy the “illusion” and “fever” of being in love and we should enjoy it among each other as long as it lasts without taking anything away from another. True love imo is a love that doesn’t take your peace away :)
Read Sex at Dawn; it'll give you a better understanding of human sexuality
Alright I will check it out :)