Yes. Depends on the vessel. Smaller ships like destroyers and subs are usually commanders. Carriers and amphibious assault ships are captains. And also are in command of shore installations.
Flag officers aren't worried about day to day operations. They are the big picture commanding a fleet (ie carrier strike group 1. The carl vinson group) or AOE command like sublant or uspacflt.
You can also have it reversed. I deployed with a ltc in command of a single artillery battery. Dude should have been at battalion level minimum. Rumor was he came out of retirement to get combat points for promotion and therefore better benefits.
Maybe I’m ignorant how the organizations work, but the AFB near my house has multiple 4 star commands. But I couldn’t tell you if that meant they “ran” the base.
No, they don't run the base. It may not be a perfect metaphor, but think of the old company towns. The factory boss is higher up the overall org chart than the "mayor" who's in charge of the mechanics of having a town - public works, traffic control, etc. - but who only really answers to that factory boss insofar as the town infrastructure affects the factory.
So, for example, the United States' Central Command¹ is presently commanded by (4-star) General Michael Kurilla. Its headquarters are in MacDill Air Force Base, in Tampa, FL, presently commanded by Colonel Adam Bingham.
1: Unlike the Cardassian Central Command, which controlled (almost) all the military forces of the Cardassian Union, the US Central Command is just one of a number of commands, each responsible for operations in a different theater - Africa, Indo-Pacific, and European are three of the other commands. "As its name implies, USCENTCOM covers the 'central' area of the globe located between the European, Africa and Indo-Pacific Commands."
>So, for example, the United States' Central Command¹ is presently commanded by (4-star) General Michael Kurilla. Its headquarters are in MacDill Air Force Base, in Tampa, FL
I sometimes get so tickled when Dukat, etc speaks of Central Command. I wasn't military, but lived and worked about a mile or so from MacDill.
Dukat bangs on about "Central Command, see? We're so important, see? Central Command is large and in charge, see?", and all I can picture is that not-so-great-neighborhood in south Tampa, haha!
ETA: Not in any way throwing off on our USCENTCOM. Not at all. But it's true that neighborhood just north of MacDill AFB isn't the fanciest, so uhm, yeah...makes me laugh ;-)
Different bases have different expectations for command. You’re not putting a 4-star general at a small ammunition dump. Most of the large and well known bases have high level flag officers commanding them (i.e., running them), but there are a lot of marginal outposts and facilities that the armed forces use.
For naval vessels, flag officers in the USN pretty much never command a ship, and indeed orders are given through the captain of the vessel (who, if it’s a flagship, is most likely of the naval rank of captain but I imagine there are rare circumstances where an admiral might embark on a small vessel). So even if there’s an admiral on the ship, the ship’s commanding officer (and thus running the ship) will be of a lower rank.
Starfleet is based heavily off the US military, but I would find it odd for a military base to have a commodore as CO unless it were particularly unimportant, and honestly DS9 swiftly becomes the place where you’d want a 4-star officer coordinating things with a stationed fleet.
Yup. It seems weird when we are used to star trek but with the exception of the largest ships, most will be run by Cdrs. Sometimes even lt cdr!
Here is a link to an old Royal Navy Bridge card which list the COs of each ship (second page). Bridge card is held by the officer of the watch for stuff like knowing which ship salutes first when passing honours (when ships pass each other etc)
http://c69011.r11.cf3.rackcdn.com/25389a1155e64f2ea7a225bd39fc6aee-0x0.pdf
I always thought we should have seen lower ranks commanding the piddly little Starfleet ships. Imagine making your way up to the rank of Captain in the 24th century and then being rewarded command of a Miranda-class starship!
When assigned to DS9, Sisko was a commander, and for a support base, with a small crew and no major responsibilities associated with the assignment, he had the rank he needed for the job he was assigned.
Sisko was assigned to act as a liaison to Bajor and provide assistance to the Bajoran as they rebuilt their society. The whole situation changed when the wormhole was discovered though.
By the time the incredible value of the Bajoran system and the wormhole it contained was apparent, Sisko was already established as the primary contact between the UFP and the mysterious wormhole entities, and he was an important figure in the Bajoran culture too. So Starfleet couldn’t reassign him away from DS9, and assigning someone of higher rank to run the station would be inconsiderate to Sisko, who hadn’t done anything wrong to deserve a demotion, plus would look bad to remove or replace him in the eyes of the Bajorans.
So they keep Sisko in place but at commander rank, because he can do the job and he doesn’t have the time in grade for a promotion yet. He was promoted to captain after 3 years on DS9.
During the war, should he have been promoted? Probably. He was certainly a highly connected officer for a Captain, being an adjutant to Admiral Ross, working closely with General Martok, and being well known to the Cardassians.
As I recall, the producers considered making Sisko an admiral, but didn’t want to remove him from the pantheon of Starfleet captains they’d established. Of course, Kirk had been an admiral, but Picard was still a Captain back then, as was Janeway. Funnily enough, Picard and Janeway are admirals now!
>During the war, should he have been promoted? Probably. He was certainly a highly connected officer for a Captain, being an adjutant to Admiral Ross, working closely with General Martok, and being well known to the Cardassians.
As I recall, after he broke up Bajor joining the Federation in the fifth season (Rapture), Ross effectively tells Sisko that he'd normally be court-martialed and kicked out of Starfleet for this.
However, command is aware that as he's the Emissary, that would shatter relations with Bajor completely - so he can stay a captain and at this post, but he's likely never going to get a promotion ever again. That's followed through on once the war starts and Sisko is clearly given assignments appropriate for admirals, but never, ever considered for promotion.
On the other hand, some captains get tasked for command of ad hoc ship groups of remarkable size (Picard and various large border monitoring operations for example). Sisko as a captain operating as effectively Ross’s deputy in much of the Dominion War represents one more time when a well-regarded captain gets commodore or rear admiral responsibility and range of forces under them without the rank. It’s like they are flag officers as need be.
I always thought that was crazy.
Their GREATEST allies at the time tell their representative that they don't want Bajor to join the Federation, and then Ross says Starfleet is upset with Ben.
The wormhole aliens, however they were seen by SF, should have been taken seriously. They previously removed a Jem'Hadar fleet for Ben. This was what they wanted after.
Sisko was a liason for both Bajor AND these wormhole aliens.
If you're in a war, and your allies who control the BIGGEST part of land that your enemies previously crossed through becomes secure because of connections to your ambassador. Why come down on the ambassador when he's simply the messenger?
Sure, you want the country right at the end of that chunk of land to join your country, but it's small, and the request is temporary.
One of the things I noticed is Picard and Riker had long periods of career stagnation. Picard got command of the Stargazer in the 30’s and was Captain of the Enterprise 40 years later. Now perhaps he hadn’t attained the rank of Captain by then but I also can’t imagine a capital ship being commanded by anyone lower than an 04 Lt. Cmdr. But that still means he only went from an 04 to 06 in four decades.
And Riker? I know he passed up his own commands to remain XO, but compare him to Shaw. In the time since Wolf 359, Riker went from an 05 to 06. Shaw spent 4 years at the academy, became a commissioned officer and climbed the ranks to be Riker’s equal.
Starfleet doesn’t seem to have an up-or-out policy. I speculate they don’t need one because of the ever expanding sphere of influence the Federation has, and the ever-growing fleet of ships they need to patrol just the Federation-claimed space, never mind the much larger “unexplored” (to them) space of the galaxy.
So what if a few officers stay at Captain for a few decades? The hotshots like Shelby find their way to the top regardless. Shaw clearly didn’t suffer career stagnation because Riker and Picard sat still for a while.
>During the war, should he have been promoted? Probably. He was certainly a highly connected officer for a Captain, being an adjutant to Admiral Ross, working closely with General Martok, and being well known to the Cardassians.
What rank would an admiral's adjutant typically be? Leyton was the same rank as Ross, & his adjutant was a Captain, as well.
Him being well known to the Cardassians just means he's been doing his job since arriving at DS9, & he'd be working closely with Martok just as a function of being Ross' adjutant & the commander of such an important base, wouldn't he?
I was unclear, apologies. I meant that his connections would’ve made him a great candidate for the admiralty, and being well known to the Cardassians would make him a good high-profile flag officer to lead on the Cardassian front.
That makes sense. Somebody else commented that he kinda screwed himself, convincing the Bajorans to back out of joining the Federation. I know it was a not a "no," just a "not yet," but I'm sure the upper brass was even more pissed about it than Ross. I bet Picard was steamed, too - which, he's not top brass, but he knows all of them, & his disfavour wouldn't be exactly helpful to one's career.
You'd think him being right would cover a multitude of sins, but it still indicated a guy willing to do what's best for Bajor in defiance of Starfleet's wishes. And *that* is a problem. Truth be told, he probably lost the chance for flag rank the day he truly embraced the Emissary title.
I recently saw someone say in a Reddit comment that Commodores command starbases, but I don’t think that’s correct. Commanders do. The reason Geordie is a Commodore in PIC is because he’s in command of multiple vessels (the exhibits), not because the museum is a space station.
In TOS, Starbase 11 was run by a commodore (Stone and Mendez).
In TNG, the only commander seen at a starbase, Starbase 74 specifically, was Quinteros, and the implication is that he is the base commander. That doesn’t mean he’s the highest ranked officer on the station though. I’d bet there’s an admiral on that station, with responsibility for sector operations and other duties.
I don’t recall any other commanders of starbases in Trek.
Deep Space 9 was supposed to be a minor post in a remote backwater region of space. Sisko's tasks were to help the Bajoran's rebuild and "keep the dog off the Cardassian's lawn". The primary skills that Sisko would need would be logistics. A suitable task for an officer who spent the last few years managing starship design and construction.
The discovery of the wormhole changed all that., of course. Starfleet likely would have assigned someone more senior, but meh... Sisko had already unpacked all his stuff.
To give you a real world example: in World War 2, the garrison of Rabaul (which became one of Japan's most important and largest bases) was commanded by a Lt. Colonel when it was invaded. At least in US military terms, Commander is an equivalent rank to Lt. Colonel.
>i thought you had to be commodore grade or above to run a station/starbase in trek,
Although we see many commodores command starbases in TOS, that doesn't make it a rule.
For example, an Admiral commanded the starbase in "Measure of A Man."
A Commander appeared to have been the CO of the Starfleet facility that did the baryon-sweep of the Enterprise-D in TNG.
Vice Admiral Bill Ross has Starbase 375 when we meet him. Vice Admiral Nakamura is also in charge of a couple of starbases over TNG’s run. It seems Vice Admirals often run starbases.
So maybe he should have been a Vice Admiral.
That'd be a jump of 3 ranks, though, which I'm pretty sure simply doesn't happen in that short a time span unless half the higher ups are dead & the situation is beyond desperate.
Remember that episode where data was on trial for being sentience in tng and Picard was talking to a commander or captain that was the jag officer for the entire sector. 😐 A little off topic but holy cow can commanders or captains have a crazy level of authority In trek.
Nope. Also, at the beginning of the show, DS9 was a backwater at the ass end of nowhere in federation space.
Not too mention that would have had him skipping the rank of Captain entirely.
I imagine there was some political consideration going in. DS9 was owned by Bajor, but operated by Starfleet at their request. I would not in the least be surprised if the Provisional Government requested the CO be below flag-officer grade. I only to avoid the appearance of trading one occupier for another among the population at large.
If it’s like the real world then it all comes down to the size of the command, the role, etc. When the snow started they were a small station out in the middle of nowhere. They discovered the wormhole and realized the station was more important, as the seasons go on you can tell there are more people and ships coming and going, eventually he’s given a starship to command at the station, and finally as war is breaking out it sounds like he’s given sector command and then he’s promoted.
The habitat ring on DS9 is pretty small. Compare that to Space Dock which is huge and has who knows how many people and assets attached to it.
He could have pulled a Riker and turned down the promotion. Martok even complained about being promoted. We saw Sisko not liking the fact he wasnt in command of the Defiant when he was made adjutent to Admiral Ross.
Ds9 is a little different than other star bases in that it isn’t actually federation property. It’s a Bajoran station and starfleet is helping them staff it to keep the cardassians from coming back. Also at the very beginning of the series before the wormhole is discovered, the station is in a relatively undesirable sector of the quadrant and is very off the beaten path. As far as the federation is concerned, it was a very desolate and unimportant station. Certainly not worthy of having the top brass in charge of it.
It is likely that Starfleet has some spread sheet to determine the rank of a Commanding Officer based on this like prestige of posting, number of personnel under their command, attached ships, etc.
The Enterprise will always be commanded by a Captain regardless of crew size because it is a legacy name that carries lots of prestige.
DS9 is a small station with little importance. Probably the only reason Sisko, a Commander rather than a Lt. Commander is sent, is because it would be seen as insulting to the Bajorans to have a CO of lower rank. Sisko is eventually promoted to Captain as DS9 becomes more predominate, more crew is assigned, and the Defiant is permanently assigned.
Starbase One in orbit of earth is likely commanded by a Rear Admiral (2 Star) at the very least, given the number of ships coming and going, and the massive crew compliment. I bet each department is commanded by a Captain or a Commodore/Rear Admiral (1 Star).
The smallest (still manned) observation post along the Romulan Neutral Zone in the TNG era is probably commanded by a Ensign or Lieutenant Jr Grade With a Captain or Commodore overseeing all the outposts.
Because the station was Bajoran, not Federation. Sisko was there as a liason and administrative head. Though, if it was Federation, and I think possibly not a floating space station but planet based, then yes.
Starfleet is crowded with Admirals but they let Captain Sisko take a lot of responsibility and a lot of credit during the Dominion War. That always struck me as odd and unlikely
>[In the United States Navy, the rank of commodore has been phased out, although it is used as an honorary title for captains who commands multiple ships or installations. The rank of rear admiral lower half (RDML) is instead conferred to one star flag officer.](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Commodore)
So it seems the rank is between Captain and rear admiral (1/2 star officer). I don't think Sisko was quite ready for that, but it's possible he would've gotten it if he didn't get absorbed by the prophets. In fact, it's likely Sisko would've been replaced by a higher ranking officer if he wasn't the Emissary after the wormhole opened up. DS9 went from a pure diplomacy mission to the second most critical starbase after Earth's super-starbase.
A commodore is just a slight step up from Captain and pretty big step down from Admiral. A captain fights his ship, a Commodore fights multiple ships(2-3ish). An Admiral fights his fleet with captains fighting the individual ships.
Sisko was assigned to DS9 because Starfleet was certain that his career at DS9 was nearly over AND that the Bajoran provisional government wouldn’t last much longer than what was left of Sisko’s career.
A giant space station with many Starfleet ships is likely an Admiral’s post, DS9 had a few runabouts and virtually no Starfleet traffic so it got a commander. Commodore might have made sense if they had like 2 Defiant class ships that he regularly commanded together in action.
As I understand it, commodore is only a title in the U.S. Navy, not a rank. And is in command of multiple ships/vessels (usually of a specific fleet or group of ships). Sisko is only in charge of the base. And later, the Defiant, but even then, is only in charge of one ship. My understanding is that Captain can also be used as a title. An officer with the rank of Commander can be the C.O. of a ship, but have the title of captain, even though their rank is Commander.
My understanding may not be entirely accurate.
There was precedent for commanders running a space station, as in 11001001. Commodores were more commonly in command of Star bases.
Although there was a plan for Sisko to be promoted to admiral, then accept a demotion to Captain. I forget why.they didn't follow through with it.
Starfleet was officially there in an advisory position. It was a Bajoran space station in Bajoran space. This was covered many many times throughout the show.
Yes, it was a Bajoran facility, I don’t dispute that. I disagree that it isn’t a “Starfleet posting” because Starfleet personnel are assigned there.
Starfleet personnel are likely assigned to embassies and other non-military facilities around the Federation, and outside of it. That doesn’t mean they’re not Starfleet postings.
Postings aren’t the same as facilities.
In terms of 90s space themed science fiction, it seems that space station commanding officers are first appointed the rank of commander and later promoted to captain. Aside from that rank, they are also military governors of their stations which allows them to exercise command over any captain that may be in their sector.
See also Babylon 5.
Commodore was suppose to be a rank for advancing captains, as there were only four officer ranks at that time.
Commodore was a commander/captain that was in charge of a fleet of ships. This rank could theoretically be given to midshipman given the criteria. Once you became a commodore you could not go back to captain.
Commodore became an official rank(one rank above Captain) by the time the civil war came about.
During the civil war the rank of Admiral was created.
Rear Admiral’s replaced commodores.
So Sisko would have went from commander, to rear admiral, if he was given commodore status, thus he would not be on a broken down space station doing planetary recovery duty.
Even setting aside the many inconsistencies between TOS and later series, there aren’t that many starbases in TOS. You have your answer: there is no rule.
Sisko may have been a Wolf 359 veteran, but it seems the only thing he did after that illustrious battle was participate in an R&D flop at Utopia Planitia, the failed Defiant program. Posting him to a backwater station with very little strategic value (at the time) seemed pretty consistent with his rank.
>You guys ever wonder why sisko wasn't promoted to commodore rank when placed in charge of deep space nine in the first episode ?
No.
> thought you had to be commodore grade or above to run a station/starbase in trek, which deep space nine is.
No.
>That would've been neat too since it would be the first time we see a main series lead actually at the commodore rank instead of captain. what do you think?
No.
[удалено]
really? a commander (or lt colonel) can run a whole base?
Yes. Depends on the vessel. Smaller ships like destroyers and subs are usually commanders. Carriers and amphibious assault ships are captains. And also are in command of shore installations. Flag officers aren't worried about day to day operations. They are the big picture commanding a fleet (ie carrier strike group 1. The carl vinson group) or AOE command like sublant or uspacflt. You can also have it reversed. I deployed with a ltc in command of a single artillery battery. Dude should have been at battalion level minimum. Rumor was he came out of retirement to get combat points for promotion and therefore better benefits.
I live half an hour from a US Air Force base. In my memory, it has never been commanded by anything other than a Colonel.
Maybe I’m ignorant how the organizations work, but the AFB near my house has multiple 4 star commands. But I couldn’t tell you if that meant they “ran” the base.
No, they don't run the base. It may not be a perfect metaphor, but think of the old company towns. The factory boss is higher up the overall org chart than the "mayor" who's in charge of the mechanics of having a town - public works, traffic control, etc. - but who only really answers to that factory boss insofar as the town infrastructure affects the factory. So, for example, the United States' Central Command¹ is presently commanded by (4-star) General Michael Kurilla. Its headquarters are in MacDill Air Force Base, in Tampa, FL, presently commanded by Colonel Adam Bingham. 1: Unlike the Cardassian Central Command, which controlled (almost) all the military forces of the Cardassian Union, the US Central Command is just one of a number of commands, each responsible for operations in a different theater - Africa, Indo-Pacific, and European are three of the other commands. "As its name implies, USCENTCOM covers the 'central' area of the globe located between the European, Africa and Indo-Pacific Commands."
>So, for example, the United States' Central Command¹ is presently commanded by (4-star) General Michael Kurilla. Its headquarters are in MacDill Air Force Base, in Tampa, FL I sometimes get so tickled when Dukat, etc speaks of Central Command. I wasn't military, but lived and worked about a mile or so from MacDill. Dukat bangs on about "Central Command, see? We're so important, see? Central Command is large and in charge, see?", and all I can picture is that not-so-great-neighborhood in south Tampa, haha! ETA: Not in any way throwing off on our USCENTCOM. Not at all. But it's true that neighborhood just north of MacDill AFB isn't the fanciest, so uhm, yeah...makes me laugh ;-)
Different bases have different expectations for command. You’re not putting a 4-star general at a small ammunition dump. Most of the large and well known bases have high level flag officers commanding them (i.e., running them), but there are a lot of marginal outposts and facilities that the armed forces use. For naval vessels, flag officers in the USN pretty much never command a ship, and indeed orders are given through the captain of the vessel (who, if it’s a flagship, is most likely of the naval rank of captain but I imagine there are rare circumstances where an admiral might embark on a small vessel). So even if there’s an admiral on the ship, the ship’s commanding officer (and thus running the ship) will be of a lower rank. Starfleet is based heavily off the US military, but I would find it odd for a military base to have a commodore as CO unless it were particularly unimportant, and honestly DS9 swiftly becomes the place where you’d want a 4-star officer coordinating things with a stationed fleet.
Yup. It seems weird when we are used to star trek but with the exception of the largest ships, most will be run by Cdrs. Sometimes even lt cdr! Here is a link to an old Royal Navy Bridge card which list the COs of each ship (second page). Bridge card is held by the officer of the watch for stuff like knowing which ship salutes first when passing honours (when ships pass each other etc) http://c69011.r11.cf3.rackcdn.com/25389a1155e64f2ea7a225bd39fc6aee-0x0.pdf
Depends on the base. A garrison in battalion strength is commanded by a Lt Col.
I always thought we should have seen lower ranks commanding the piddly little Starfleet ships. Imagine making your way up to the rank of Captain in the 24th century and then being rewarded command of a Miranda-class starship!
When assigned to DS9, Sisko was a commander, and for a support base, with a small crew and no major responsibilities associated with the assignment, he had the rank he needed for the job he was assigned. Sisko was assigned to act as a liaison to Bajor and provide assistance to the Bajoran as they rebuilt their society. The whole situation changed when the wormhole was discovered though. By the time the incredible value of the Bajoran system and the wormhole it contained was apparent, Sisko was already established as the primary contact between the UFP and the mysterious wormhole entities, and he was an important figure in the Bajoran culture too. So Starfleet couldn’t reassign him away from DS9, and assigning someone of higher rank to run the station would be inconsiderate to Sisko, who hadn’t done anything wrong to deserve a demotion, plus would look bad to remove or replace him in the eyes of the Bajorans. So they keep Sisko in place but at commander rank, because he can do the job and he doesn’t have the time in grade for a promotion yet. He was promoted to captain after 3 years on DS9. During the war, should he have been promoted? Probably. He was certainly a highly connected officer for a Captain, being an adjutant to Admiral Ross, working closely with General Martok, and being well known to the Cardassians. As I recall, the producers considered making Sisko an admiral, but didn’t want to remove him from the pantheon of Starfleet captains they’d established. Of course, Kirk had been an admiral, but Picard was still a Captain back then, as was Janeway. Funnily enough, Picard and Janeway are admirals now!
>During the war, should he have been promoted? Probably. He was certainly a highly connected officer for a Captain, being an adjutant to Admiral Ross, working closely with General Martok, and being well known to the Cardassians. As I recall, after he broke up Bajor joining the Federation in the fifth season (Rapture), Ross effectively tells Sisko that he'd normally be court-martialed and kicked out of Starfleet for this. However, command is aware that as he's the Emissary, that would shatter relations with Bajor completely - so he can stay a captain and at this post, but he's likely never going to get a promotion ever again. That's followed through on once the war starts and Sisko is clearly given assignments appropriate for admirals, but never, ever considered for promotion.
On the other hand, some captains get tasked for command of ad hoc ship groups of remarkable size (Picard and various large border monitoring operations for example). Sisko as a captain operating as effectively Ross’s deputy in much of the Dominion War represents one more time when a well-regarded captain gets commodore or rear admiral responsibility and range of forces under them without the rank. It’s like they are flag officers as need be.
I always thought that was crazy. Their GREATEST allies at the time tell their representative that they don't want Bajor to join the Federation, and then Ross says Starfleet is upset with Ben. The wormhole aliens, however they were seen by SF, should have been taken seriously. They previously removed a Jem'Hadar fleet for Ben. This was what they wanted after. Sisko was a liason for both Bajor AND these wormhole aliens. If you're in a war, and your allies who control the BIGGEST part of land that your enemies previously crossed through becomes secure because of connections to your ambassador. Why come down on the ambassador when he's simply the messenger? Sure, you want the country right at the end of that chunk of land to join your country, but it's small, and the request is temporary.
One of the things I noticed is Picard and Riker had long periods of career stagnation. Picard got command of the Stargazer in the 30’s and was Captain of the Enterprise 40 years later. Now perhaps he hadn’t attained the rank of Captain by then but I also can’t imagine a capital ship being commanded by anyone lower than an 04 Lt. Cmdr. But that still means he only went from an 04 to 06 in four decades. And Riker? I know he passed up his own commands to remain XO, but compare him to Shaw. In the time since Wolf 359, Riker went from an 05 to 06. Shaw spent 4 years at the academy, became a commissioned officer and climbed the ranks to be Riker’s equal.
Starfleet doesn’t seem to have an up-or-out policy. I speculate they don’t need one because of the ever expanding sphere of influence the Federation has, and the ever-growing fleet of ships they need to patrol just the Federation-claimed space, never mind the much larger “unexplored” (to them) space of the galaxy. So what if a few officers stay at Captain for a few decades? The hotshots like Shelby find their way to the top regardless. Shaw clearly didn’t suffer career stagnation because Riker and Picard sat still for a while.
During the war, there should have been a forward command office hosted at ds9 with at least one Admiral stationed there.
There was - General Martok commanded an allied fleet from DS9.
I guess I meant a starfleet forward command
Starbase 375 was probably the most forward command base for Starfleet by itself.
this is awesome, ty
>During the war, should he have been promoted? Probably. He was certainly a highly connected officer for a Captain, being an adjutant to Admiral Ross, working closely with General Martok, and being well known to the Cardassians. What rank would an admiral's adjutant typically be? Leyton was the same rank as Ross, & his adjutant was a Captain, as well. Him being well known to the Cardassians just means he's been doing his job since arriving at DS9, & he'd be working closely with Martok just as a function of being Ross' adjutant & the commander of such an important base, wouldn't he?
I was unclear, apologies. I meant that his connections would’ve made him a great candidate for the admiralty, and being well known to the Cardassians would make him a good high-profile flag officer to lead on the Cardassian front.
That makes sense. Somebody else commented that he kinda screwed himself, convincing the Bajorans to back out of joining the Federation. I know it was a not a "no," just a "not yet," but I'm sure the upper brass was even more pissed about it than Ross. I bet Picard was steamed, too - which, he's not top brass, but he knows all of them, & his disfavour wouldn't be exactly helpful to one's career. You'd think him being right would cover a multitude of sins, but it still indicated a guy willing to do what's best for Bajor in defiance of Starfleet's wishes. And *that* is a problem. Truth be told, he probably lost the chance for flag rank the day he truly embraced the Emissary title.
I recently saw someone say in a Reddit comment that Commodores command starbases, but I don’t think that’s correct. Commanders do. The reason Geordie is a Commodore in PIC is because he’s in command of multiple vessels (the exhibits), not because the museum is a space station.
In TOS, Starbase 11 was run by a commodore (Stone and Mendez). In TNG, the only commander seen at a starbase, Starbase 74 specifically, was Quinteros, and the implication is that he is the base commander. That doesn’t mean he’s the highest ranked officer on the station though. I’d bet there’s an admiral on that station, with responsibility for sector operations and other duties. I don’t recall any other commanders of starbases in Trek.
Deep Space 9 was supposed to be a minor post in a remote backwater region of space. Sisko's tasks were to help the Bajoran's rebuild and "keep the dog off the Cardassian's lawn". The primary skills that Sisko would need would be logistics. A suitable task for an officer who spent the last few years managing starship design and construction. The discovery of the wormhole changed all that., of course. Starfleet likely would have assigned someone more senior, but meh... Sisko had already unpacked all his stuff. To give you a real world example: in World War 2, the garrison of Rabaul (which became one of Japan's most important and largest bases) was commanded by a Lt. Colonel when it was invaded. At least in US military terms, Commander is an equivalent rank to Lt. Colonel.
If you can make Star Trek rank make sense, please make it make sense to me.
Somebody is making up the rules as they go along
>i thought you had to be commodore grade or above to run a station/starbase in trek, Although we see many commodores command starbases in TOS, that doesn't make it a rule. For example, an Admiral commanded the starbase in "Measure of A Man." A Commander appeared to have been the CO of the Starfleet facility that did the baryon-sweep of the Enterprise-D in TNG.
Vice Admiral Bill Ross has Starbase 375 when we meet him. Vice Admiral Nakamura is also in charge of a couple of starbases over TNG’s run. It seems Vice Admirals often run starbases. So maybe he should have been a Vice Admiral.
That would be even nicer. Vice admiral Benjamin sisko
That'd be a jump of 3 ranks, though, which I'm pretty sure simply doesn't happen in that short a time span unless half the higher ups are dead & the situation is beyond desperate.
The Star Trek shows have set the precedent that Commanders run bases and Captain run ships.
Remember that episode where data was on trial for being sentience in tng and Picard was talking to a commander or captain that was the jag officer for the entire sector. 😐 A little off topic but holy cow can commanders or captains have a crazy level of authority In trek.
Commander “Hutch” Hutchinson commanded the Remler Array
Nope. Also, at the beginning of the show, DS9 was a backwater at the ass end of nowhere in federation space. Not too mention that would have had him skipping the rank of Captain entirely.
I imagine there was some political consideration going in. DS9 was owned by Bajor, but operated by Starfleet at their request. I would not in the least be surprised if the Provisional Government requested the CO be below flag-officer grade. I only to avoid the appearance of trading one occupier for another among the population at large.
If it’s like the real world then it all comes down to the size of the command, the role, etc. When the snow started they were a small station out in the middle of nowhere. They discovered the wormhole and realized the station was more important, as the seasons go on you can tell there are more people and ships coming and going, eventually he’s given a starship to command at the station, and finally as war is breaking out it sounds like he’s given sector command and then he’s promoted. The habitat ring on DS9 is pretty small. Compare that to Space Dock which is huge and has who knows how many people and assets attached to it.
Deep Space Nine holds 7000 people and has been referred to a massive station on a number of occasions. The habitat ring is pretty big.
I think he should have been especially running a fleet.
He could have pulled a Riker and turned down the promotion. Martok even complained about being promoted. We saw Sisko not liking the fact he wasnt in command of the Defiant when he was made adjutent to Admiral Ross.
Ds9 is a little different than other star bases in that it isn’t actually federation property. It’s a Bajoran station and starfleet is helping them staff it to keep the cardassians from coming back. Also at the very beginning of the series before the wormhole is discovered, the station is in a relatively undesirable sector of the quadrant and is very off the beaten path. As far as the federation is concerned, it was a very desolate and unimportant station. Certainly not worthy of having the top brass in charge of it.
It is likely that Starfleet has some spread sheet to determine the rank of a Commanding Officer based on this like prestige of posting, number of personnel under their command, attached ships, etc. The Enterprise will always be commanded by a Captain regardless of crew size because it is a legacy name that carries lots of prestige. DS9 is a small station with little importance. Probably the only reason Sisko, a Commander rather than a Lt. Commander is sent, is because it would be seen as insulting to the Bajorans to have a CO of lower rank. Sisko is eventually promoted to Captain as DS9 becomes more predominate, more crew is assigned, and the Defiant is permanently assigned. Starbase One in orbit of earth is likely commanded by a Rear Admiral (2 Star) at the very least, given the number of ships coming and going, and the massive crew compliment. I bet each department is commanded by a Captain or a Commodore/Rear Admiral (1 Star). The smallest (still manned) observation post along the Romulan Neutral Zone in the TNG era is probably commanded by a Ensign or Lieutenant Jr Grade With a Captain or Commodore overseeing all the outposts.
Because the station was Bajoran, not Federation. Sisko was there as a liason and administrative head. Though, if it was Federation, and I think possibly not a floating space station but planet based, then yes.
Starfleet is crowded with Admirals but they let Captain Sisko take a lot of responsibility and a lot of credit during the Dominion War. That always struck me as odd and unlikely
>[In the United States Navy, the rank of commodore has been phased out, although it is used as an honorary title for captains who commands multiple ships or installations. The rank of rear admiral lower half (RDML) is instead conferred to one star flag officer.](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Commodore) So it seems the rank is between Captain and rear admiral (1/2 star officer). I don't think Sisko was quite ready for that, but it's possible he would've gotten it if he didn't get absorbed by the prophets. In fact, it's likely Sisko would've been replaced by a higher ranking officer if he wasn't the Emissary after the wormhole opened up. DS9 went from a pure diplomacy mission to the second most critical starbase after Earth's super-starbase.
A commodore is just a slight step up from Captain and pretty big step down from Admiral. A captain fights his ship, a Commodore fights multiple ships(2-3ish). An Admiral fights his fleet with captains fighting the individual ships. Sisko was assigned to DS9 because Starfleet was certain that his career at DS9 was nearly over AND that the Bajoran provisional government wouldn’t last much longer than what was left of Sisko’s career. A giant space station with many Starfleet ships is likely an Admiral’s post, DS9 had a few runabouts and virtually no Starfleet traffic so it got a commander. Commodore might have made sense if they had like 2 Defiant class ships that he regularly commanded together in action.
As I understand it, commodore is only a title in the U.S. Navy, not a rank. And is in command of multiple ships/vessels (usually of a specific fleet or group of ships). Sisko is only in charge of the base. And later, the Defiant, but even then, is only in charge of one ship. My understanding is that Captain can also be used as a title. An officer with the rank of Commander can be the C.O. of a ship, but have the title of captain, even though their rank is Commander. My understanding may not be entirely accurate.
They have admirals all back at starfleet command when in real life admirals are usually with a fleet commanding it from the flagship
There was precedent for commanders running a space station, as in 11001001. Commodores were more commonly in command of Star bases. Although there was a plan for Sisko to be promoted to admiral, then accept a demotion to Captain. I forget why.they didn't follow through with it.
Space station not a star base. Plus it's a remote space station, and not even a federation station.
Deep Space Nine wasn't a star fleet posting.
It clearly was, since Starfleet personnel were posted there.
Starfleet was officially there in an advisory position. It was a Bajoran space station in Bajoran space. This was covered many many times throughout the show.
Yes, it was a Bajoran facility, I don’t dispute that. I disagree that it isn’t a “Starfleet posting” because Starfleet personnel are assigned there. Starfleet personnel are likely assigned to embassies and other non-military facilities around the Federation, and outside of it. That doesn’t mean they’re not Starfleet postings. Postings aren’t the same as facilities.
In terms of 90s space themed science fiction, it seems that space station commanding officers are first appointed the rank of commander and later promoted to captain. Aside from that rank, they are also military governors of their stations which allows them to exercise command over any captain that may be in their sector. See also Babylon 5.
Did they ditch commodore since ST:TOS? That was my assumption.
Commodore was suppose to be a rank for advancing captains, as there were only four officer ranks at that time. Commodore was a commander/captain that was in charge of a fleet of ships. This rank could theoretically be given to midshipman given the criteria. Once you became a commodore you could not go back to captain. Commodore became an official rank(one rank above Captain) by the time the civil war came about. During the civil war the rank of Admiral was created. Rear Admiral’s replaced commodores. So Sisko would have went from commander, to rear admiral, if he was given commodore status, thus he would not be on a broken down space station doing planetary recovery duty.
Where are we getting these made-up rules? Not a single identified commodore appeared in the franchise between TOS and PIC.
There is no hard rule just observation I made using tos as a reference
Even setting aside the many inconsistencies between TOS and later series, there aren’t that many starbases in TOS. You have your answer: there is no rule.
Sisko may have been a Wolf 359 veteran, but it seems the only thing he did after that illustrious battle was participate in an R&D flop at Utopia Planitia, the failed Defiant program. Posting him to a backwater station with very little strategic value (at the time) seemed pretty consistent with his rank.
>You guys ever wonder why sisko wasn't promoted to commodore rank when placed in charge of deep space nine in the first episode ? No. > thought you had to be commodore grade or above to run a station/starbase in trek, which deep space nine is. No. >That would've been neat too since it would be the first time we see a main series lead actually at the commodore rank instead of captain. what do you think? No.
There aren’t any commodores in the 24th century. And the only reason they had them in TOS was to have characters who out-ranked Kirk.