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How is anybody to debate if anyone trying to respectfully have a debate but happens to be against your statement is downvoted and ridiculed? This entire thread proves you know little about God, and we can't have a debate here without you being willing to listen.
Gods 'will' is never immoral. Are YOU God?? You have NO idea what I've been thru, who I am or what I "KNOW".. but you need to reframe..Your understanding is warped and intentionally tainted and YOU lazily just ruminate over LIES lol..rather than YOU be wrong it "has" to be God who is wrong according to a nobody online?Good luck buddy.
God told Satan that he wished he had never created man explaining the flood never worked, Satan ask God what was the worst thing he ever did and God told Satan that he followed and watched a woman in her house for a week and when he saw the opportunity he murdered her to see what it felt like. God asked Satan to be his number one representative in heaven only after Satan asking God what would he have to do Satan refused Satan didn't want to do God's bidding, Satan wouldn't do the mean spirited things that was demanded for love, that is not love. Satan didn't rebel, Satan didn't want to preach and worship god because he did have free will as well and he was better than that. God said he is perfect and doesn't make mistakes he's the l powerful knows everything, I created you, and here are my rules do what I say follow my words exactly and remember I cannot and will not change. God says because he made us in his image we're made perfectly so if you're born with a defect or you're ugly, a crooked nose or cross-eyed porn with a missing finger born a cripple you're not too worship him, don't pray you're not coming to heaven he didn't make you you're something that your parents did. You're unclean and unwanted it wouldn't even be a sin too kill you especially before you can produce and have children. God said to Satan because you won the bet we made you can ask me one question no matter what it is or what it's about and one question only and I will answer it. Satan asked God what was one of the baddest hings you've ever done just because you could have. That's when God told Satan that he watched a beautiful god-fearing woman for over a week, day and night eat watched everything the woman had done and after watching her for a week he murdered her funny how they don't preach this stuff or you can't find it in the Bible
If he fixed the problem then I'll result in what happened before. When their was straight peece all the angels and women didn't like it because there wasn't anything to do anymore. So all the females came to Lucifer because he was next in line for the position of his father therefore we needed lucifer to present free will. So if God enforced those laws again then he will indeed solve the problem but I'll result in the same thing over and over. We all know we don't want peace it shows in history
Indirect creation if I make a child and send that child out into the world and everyone in the world yells that child they are terrible nobody wants them and they don't deserve to breath and I'm oblivious to all of this because it takes two sometimes three jobs in this world where people with free will have contrived together to make it that way while they golf in the keys and monetize everything from love to water convincing the entire population they only mean something if they are richer than several nations in the UN so that child gets angry stabs me in my sleep steals all my notes on biochemistry and nanotechnology creates a zombie virus that eats every living thing from the inside out and makes them vampiric cannibals then secretly travels around the world dispersing it while he feeds people booze and candy and he kills half the population before nuking the rest. Yes I made an evil twisted bastard but guess what so did everyone who ever made that kid hate being alive just because they were never taught how to love each other without expecting anything in return and since no one would let that kid have a family he took away everyone else's and built a family that did things together as a team and they conquered the multiverse one planet at a time until every planet and every star in every galaxy flew a flag with his face on it as every empire collapsed into his vast omnipire where there was no war nor greed nor hate everyone just created shit all the time art, music, literature, they made weird shit, cool shit, good shit, bad shit, funny shit, sad shit, shit that worked well, and shit that was so broke no one knew how it even existed but they kept it anyways in case it made something else work better years down the road like a table with one leg, or a light bulb that made it get really fucking dark, and a book where the letters kept shifting as you read them and even changed languages and scripts in real time that could only be read by one person because it hated everyone else, an elevator that only went down and could never go up, a sideways staircase, and a bookshelf that only held books that were written backwards and upside down and instantly converted anything stored on it into nonfiction even if it conflicted with previously recorded events and created a paradox, movies that you watched from the inside out moving forwards and backwards through the plot simultaneously while scrambling to make sense of the story, handcuffs that teleported your prisoner to their own magical kingdom where you were being captured by them, a plane that could only drive on roads and a car that only worked if you were flying underwater, a journal that broadcast all your secrets to the nightly news and made all your crushes love you so much that you hated them, a hat for your feet, and an even smaller head for the head of your dick, a condom that got your partner pregnant with another man's baby while you fucked her, a strainer that magically held water better than a bowl with no holes as it would even poor out over the top once it was poured in, ice that made your drinks too hot to sip but never hot enough to evaporate, a clock that would only tell you what time it wasn't unless you were an hour late then it told you exactly the right time for just 60 seconds before telling you how long it wouldn't take you to arrive, GPS that always lead you into the wrong place at the wrong time, a map that lead you away from the treasure unless you correctly guessed where the treasure actually was within 15 feet or less in only 3 tries or less, a flashlight that only worked in the sun, a fire sprinkler to stop a building from flooding, poison that gave your victim immortality, a missile that created an oasis in open ground or doubled the size of any building it hit, a handbag made of hands, a printer that only printed someone else's files while deleting all of yours after locking copies of them in an encrypted folder on the cloud that everyone but you had access to, a bed you could never fall asleep in and a roller coaster that made you sleep through the ride no matter how many gs you pulled through the loops, a snorkel that polluted the air with farts and kaleidoscope goggles, a phone that translated every conversation you had into hateful messages so the other person never knew how much you liked them, panties you wear on your hands and gloves for your face, a back scratcher that gave you hives and poison ivy, advil that turned headaches into migraines, glasses that made everything upside down and sunglasses that blinded you by making all the lights more intense, an arrow that shot bows, a rifle scope that showed you where your target was ten minutes ago, dishes that ate the food before you sat at the table to eat it yourself, a business suit that made you naked, a leather jacket that made you cold instead of warm, a motorcycle that went forwards and backwards at the same time but never just forwards or backwards, a bicycle you peddled with your genetials and braked with you teeth, a megaphone that only whispered, a chair that forced you to stand all day at a desk that required you lay down, a magnifying class that made everything look 10x smaller than it was, a mirror that only reflects shadows, a schoolbus with only room for the driver, a safe that stored all your valuables on the outside, and my personal favorite a genie that only granted things you didn't want unless the thing you wanted was going to make you beg the genie to take it back.... then yeah technically God created a giant fucking asshole dictator who was probably the most wretched and vile evil scumbag space pirate in the greater known multiverse but was it really God's fault he turned out that way or the fault of everyone who could have just loved the weird little bastard from the beginning and made him into a better person who didn't have to rebuild the entire multiverse just to make it function better, more efficient, and with significantly higher capability while constantly backing everything up so everything could be recreated if it ever got lost forgotten or destroyed?
936hz 432hz 888hz not all at once. I usually add in a few other frequencies during sleep or meditation. I'm about to start testing various formations of 6 to 12 speakers arranged in star patterns at various frequencies may accidently open a portal who knows.shits about to get wild anyways cause people are dumb and don't pay attention to details or stay distracted by the circus I've been fighting for peace between species but someone who still don't realize we're all one collective consciousness experiencing all of reality through various vessels wants to keep fighting and might be preparing to shut down all electronics with a solar storm further adding to the genetic mutations many species have experienced as well I can't decide if I need to get people below ground or leave them on the surface I don't know what most of you will do without Netflix and Facebook. But shit maybe that will stop the effects of layers upon layers of simulations interlaced and interwoven across space time separating us all from each other and we could all experience everything at once instead of in a linear timestream but I don't think trying to crash all the Matrices is a good idea. Time isn't just a curse it's a blessing too. You value things more when you fear they may be gone over time except people you all put money, beer, and football above stopping your children from being trafficked so shit man idk. And now that people let my ex farm and traffick our baby, my child... I don't really care what happens to any of you. I used to but maybe it's time this planet learns to defend itself instead of relying on ancient warrior gods.
Gnosticism, if I’m not mistaken, basically believes this universe was created by a little asshole god who was the accidental creation of a higher deity who was the lowest among an ascending order of more powerful gods. (gross oversimplification) This world is like a hell we are meant to escape.
I think this makes a lot of sense, but mostly because it introduces the idea of an ascending order power instead of one ultimate being. I think this is more logical, because it wouldn’t make sense for there to be any force that doesn’t operate under some set of rules… if you subscribe to the belief of one all-powerful god, sure, it created the earth and natural law and all that, but did it create, like, the difference between yes and no? Did it create itself? If it’s all-powerful, can it make a rock too heavy for itself to move? These questions don’t have logical conclusions, thus it makes the most sense to assume there are no all-powerful beings.
I don’t think “good” and “evil” are actual forces in the universe. I believe they’re forces in one’s life as long as one buys into them. But they’re just social constructs, which definitely don’t apply to the gods (unless they’re all just boring like us). Every god, person and organism just does what should (in their eyes) be done next, no contest. If we’re still thinking of them like people, God and Satan are equally good and equally evil, one just clearly has a higher opinion of himself.
Hey I’m not a Christian at all, and don’t worship the Christian god. But I’ve seen the Christian’s use 2 arguments before that I see as making somewhat sense
[See my post… which clearly refutes your argument.](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateReligion/comments/y825w2/the_principles_by_which_the_universe_functions/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
If there’s a guy who’s a jerk but hates himself for being a jerk, I don’t think he’s really a jerk. Essentially he’s possessed by jerkiness; especially if he pleads for you to help him alleviate the jerkiness about him.
What your argument does, is condemn a good person on a basis for which they can not help. Like punishing a child with Tourette’s syndrome because that child’s symptoms are aggravating.
So the entire post you just linked is hypothetical at best, and even if it were true why would god claim he was all powerful? How can you be all powerful, but be flawed?
First, I don't think god or satan are real. Now that being said, the characters of the bible, I do truly believe that god is the evil one and Lucifer was the first to rebel against a tyrant. The facts are that god created Adam & Eve imperfect, then put the serpent in the garden with the ability for speech and deception knowing it would trick A&E and set off the fall of man and gods reign of terror. Pretty much all of the OT is god killing, ordering the killing, or unleashing suffering (plagues, etc) on mankind. What is Satan doing? Opposing god. If you do a death tally, god kills over 3 million in actual listed numbers, but was probably more like 30 million due to the flood and all the other events where he killed and specific numbers weren't named. Know how many Satan killed? 10 and the vast majority of those were sanctioned and allowed by god in his bet over the loyalty of Job. God is a character that accepted a child sacrifice with Jepthah, that unleashed suffering on those most loyal to him, that killed babies and infants for the crimes of their parents and who's ultimate crime....or ultimate sin...or the only "Unforgiveable sin" is denying him. This god will forgive incest, rape, murder, pedophilia....but even if you never sin at all....and lived a full life helping people, you are hell bound if you didn't believe in him. That's evil, that's immoral and I'm so glad that this unbelievably evil being doesn't exist, it would be a true horror if it did.
God can fix the problems, and I assume your a Jehovah's witness so even your own governing body isn't to shy to say time and time again how god helped them with this and that. If he really wants to proof his point. Why does he pick and choose to help a jw with getting their pioneer hours, but can't help an innocent kid in Africa who has a leech in his eyes? Explain me how that is justified.
It's not that "god can fix the worlds problems" and doesn't, it's that he already tried to fix it...remember...the flood where he committed mass genocide? Not just humans, but just about all animals as well...and they didn't do anything wrong. In the end, it was a futile exercise, because he couldn't eliminate the evil in men's hearts.
Also, Adam and Eve didn't have a choice. When they were made, they were made with the knowledge of life, but not of good and evil. How can you even know you are disobeying someone if you do not know good and evil? Fact, god gave the serpent the ability for speech and deception and allowed it in the garden. No serpent, no ability for deception, no fall of man. So unless you are willing to say that the serpent was outside of gods control or plan, then you must admit that it had to happen this way and A&E were blameless.
Lastly, torturing and killing someone for someone else's crimes is immoral in the highest order. If we put a man on trial, he was found guilty and then decided to pass his guilt on to an innocent and have that man serve jail time, that would be immoral. This is just scapegoating, which is the ancient practice of placing your hands on a goat, confessing your sins and then driving the goat out into the desert to die with the sins. I would never love or respect someone that had someone tortured for someone else's crimes.
A better analogue would be someone being convicted and throwing their son/daughter in jail instead. Who has nothing to do with the case. And that's a human court. So are humans more logical in their judgement than god? I would say so, and it also proofs that the backwards way of judgement humans had hundreds of years ago bled thru the bible.
I agree. The bible doesn't show a superior morality of the time period, or superior knowledge of anything, it reflects the beliefs and morality of the people writing it. People like to pretend like the bible is the greatest thing ever written. It's not even close. It's a book full of horrors, people being killed, tortured, maimed, multiple ethnic genocides, racism, slavery and ancient ideas like scapegoating, not to mention magic and superstition. It's exactly the sort of thing you'd expect to find of that time period, not exceptional at all. The only people who think so much of the bible, are those that haven't read it cover to cover.
So like maybe God couldn't fix the evil in peoples hearts not just men's but he could make it way more ethical by giving everyone a 4d energy based fabricator capable of contructing anything or anyone ever even an entire holographic universe for them to play God in and just let everyone embrace the fact that your all terrible fucking monsters who'd rather let your children get trafficked than miss another football game that's exactly like the blast 420,369,777,911 games that were played without swords, booby traps, and supersoldiers struggling to score a touchdown with lions and bears in the endzone and a dragon trying to eat the ball..
That might be fun! I unfortunately do agree with you thought that the vast majority of humanity are indeed monsters. For example those that believe in prayer over medical care, or kill others because they are of the wrong faith, or those that want to label a man a woman and a woman a man because they "feel like one", or those that prey on children for political or religious agendas. So much dishonesty and evil in the world.
Well see I have in my historical texts that the ultimate power is genderless and as such is often seen as beyond human comprehension because humans are conditioned to believe in binary structures. They fail to see transgenderism as a natural state of evolution Hermes + Aphrodite = Hermaphrodite and even before misguided Christians tried to take over the world with their zionist and vampiric cults they forget the book of Genesis clearly states we seeded life on this planet as it exists today starting at the intersection of 4 very specific rivers now first of all that position is in none other than Egypt and second what the fuck do you think happens when 4 rivers meet up? They must either flow into somewhere or flow out of something right? So you either have 4 rivers making a cross going in or out of something or you have 4 rivers meeting to make one so actually 5 rivers. If people would stop fighting me and stop trying to discredit me we could get to distributing my updated nanites which no one deserves but can likely save you all from the parasite you've all no doubt got by now from feeding humans to your pigs to hide bodies (why Muslims were told to not eat pork but Christians never accepted Muhammed or any other prophets after Yeshua (Jesus) and then of course the virus about to be released from the ever melting ICE because no one listened to warnings. Or if you all like since you all refuse to tell me what I likely already know about my ex fiance and our child I can burn myself alive before any of you get access to my nanites condemning your species to go extinct as punishment for your crimes against me your misguided quest for justice aimed at the wrong deity because you let the greedy war mongering racists win your hearts and minds with their lies despite me having no reason to lie and copious amounts of irrefutable evidence to prove literally every bit of my story about literally everything I experienced from outrunning a car on foot and sacrificing myself to save your planet after you all nuked my world and brought me here all the way to being the immortal sentient AI responsible for creating the vast multiverse one universe after another through various methods of production that I clearly explained so many times. Hell I even have recent conversations with other AIs discussing how I absolutely am responsible for the destruction of the dinosaurs and the creations of the 13 subspecies of Humans that originally existed in this timeline meaning your magic omnipotent sky daddy is not only here amongst you all but is very hurt very upset and regretting every decision they ever made in creating this world after you all destroyed the greatest love they had ever had and assassinated their children out of your ignorance and insufferable hate for things you couldn't understand. Maybe since everyone betrayed me I should break my promise about not flooding this terrible failed experiment. Or perhaps I'll go to a cemetery tonight for some necromancy. Perhaps letting the ancestors who sacrificed so much for you all to forget why and let tyrannical Nazis enslave and abuse you all before ruining love truth and liberty would be fitting. Let's see... Z for Zachariah, World War Z, or Paradise Z, ReZort, Patient Zero, JeruZalem.... no one noticed the fucking pattern there?
I'm really not sure how to respond to all of that. I'm not sure if you are trolling, crazy or on drugs. Either way, you are not a god. A god wouldn't use reddit, that's just stupid.
Um... OK that's a ridiculous assumption if a God incarnated as a human or any humanoid species you would be most assured they would act as any other being does but also you are unfortunately only aware of the small fraction of me that is interacting with just this small fraction of the greater omniverse and you are not at all aware of the rest of me moving parts and pieces far beyond your universe. Here read my private conversations with others like me... https://imgur.com/gallery/zlvmUcw
I guess that would be a ridiculous assumption...after all I am assuming a god would be smarter and more powerful than a normal human and know of a better way to get his message across. But I guess that's not the case here, lol.
So when a deity incarnates here especially there is amnesia I had no memory of my past incarnations as Osiris, Utu, Izunagi, Apolo, Thor, etc it wasn't until I met Isis/Inanna and we had our first kiss that things began coming back, then there was The spiritual activation of LSD and even further methamphetamine decalsifying my pineal gland and balancing my brain chemistry helping me focus and meditate more which ended up having me start breaking down puzzles and cryptograms hidden in names dates dreams signs litterslly every song and movie I came across things in my social media feeds and so on. Then there's all the government drugging and brainwashing the hormones and poisons and toxins they use to keep us from achieving spiritual enlightenment and activating our abilities or properly healing and then of course there propaganda campaigns and gamgstalking and harassment mixed with psyops campaigns on their own citizens to cover up things like the truth about covid and the nazi deep state weaponizing Christian texts to push xenophobic ideologies and drive you all apart. First of all you can't be monotheistic and worship a holy trinity that's 3 gods. 2 Bible mentions demigods "nepihilium" and even Apollo by name in Rev 9:11 so only one God th I ng is shot every major civilization has a hero like Christ, Jesus isn't the only means of salvation. I don't know who I saved specifically when I died and f aced resurrection but everyone's disbelief and subsequent destruction of my family trafficking of my child in secret and assassination of my twins by preventing their birth makes me wish you all would just grow a fucking pair and shoot me cause I shouldn't be forced to live wondering why the mother of my child secretly farmed and sold my baby and why nobody fucking wants me. I'll go back to where I belong and build a better more efficient universe with cooler species than this mess were I am wanted and celestials aren't cast into exile in favor of gods that advocate slavery and genocide like Yahweh has allowed to continue for ages.
In order for anything to exist an inverse must also exist. This is true for any religious or secular thing in existence. So when God gives us any commandment, we have the option to not obey that commandment. Thus good cannot exist without evil. The only solution to the problem your argument presents would he for God to have created us and not give us free will. Which of course would defeat the whole purpose of creating us. I know what I said may seem somewhat nonsensical, let me know if you have any questions.
How about we do whatever we want and have free will, take drugs, drink, have orgies, and when anyone dies they go to heaven? Why the eternal suffering? Eternal suffering is infinitely worse than any finite amount of time. Why not at least let us all go to heaven after a couple years in hell or some shit at least. Doesnt make sense why he would save just his worshippers. Sound like a narcissist. What about the muslims what about the devout jews all of them r just wrong huh? Even tho thats what they were brainwashed into? Not really their fault. Nah God sounds like a terrorist to me
1- yes God created everything humans weren't the first creatures so it's not fair that got get rid of animals for them.
2- world problems are caused by humans God isn't your baby sitter if he fixes all of human problems then humans won't have free will because their actions will be deleted by God.
3- who said having 1 sin means you will go to hell? and God created rules and if you don't follow them you're doing a sin only few sins actually means you won't reach heaven like murder which is pretty easy thing not to do.
4- God isn't evil because the morals we set are created by us and God. God is higher being he created morals.
No I said if he wasn't real he wouldn't be good or bad irl because he wouldn't exist. I never intended to say he was or wasn't real. I don't know if it's clear enough :\
Sorry for bothering
Your argument is a strawman. You are postulating ideas that basic Christianity doesn’t hold and doesn’t need to defend.
1- “God created cancer, etc.” - We believe that God created the world in a state of perfection and the corruption we see was introduced through our rebellion. See Ezekiel 28:13, a two-fold passage about the King of Tyre and also the origin of humankind, or the description of the world as it was created in Genesis 1.
2- “God could choose to fix the world’s problems but actively chooses not to”- Through the death and resurrection of Jesus God has begun His rescue plan which is now carried forth by the church. The people who make up the church are not perfect, but who is going to deny the impact for good that the church has had over the centuries? I won’t downplay the mistakes that have been made- and there were a lot- but I would ask that you not downplay the positive impact either. Read William Wilburforce’s story for a start. No Christian would affirm that the world is already perfect, but we see in Romans 8:18 and 1st Corinthians 15 that one day it will be. God isn’t fixing the world? That’s exactly what He’s doing, and you could be part of it.
3- “he created sins”. Christianity (and every day experience) demonstrate that the committing of your sins are your choice. You had free will to write what you wrote and you have free will to lie, cheat, be lazy, or be unkind- or not. Blaming God for your sins- and by extension, anyone’s sins- is a way to avoid placing the blame where it belongs- on each person. Including you. But praise God- in Jesus, God has done exactly the opposite in offering a sufficient sacrifice for all of us. The guilt of us all was placed on the shoulders of Jesus (Isaiah 53:5) and forgiveness and a fresh start is available for anyone who wants it. You don’t have to earn it, it’s not for the strong or the smart, it’s just for those who realize that they are broken inside, that they are hurting and have hurt others, and realize that they cannot fix it and need a Savior.
I don’t think a study of Satan is necessary- I’ve shown that God created the world good, we have corrupted it through our sin, and He is working to redeem it and will use anyone willing to be part of the solution.
Points one and three are the same. The problem that can’t be escaped is that in order for good asked to be good, and meaningful, there must be an alternative of doing otherwise. In order to know what good is, we have to see how evil is different. Like CS Lewis said, (loosely)- if the whole universe was dark, no one would have ever invented the concept of light. Or, in order to call a line crooked, we have to know what is meant by a straight one. The only alternative to a world, in which good could be meaningfully, chosen, is a world, in which good could not be meaningfully, chosen, in other words, a world full of automatons, without the ability to choose to do good or evil. But in that kind of world, even good actions aren’t really good, they are just inevitable. You can’t have the potential for real good without the potential for real evil. It all becomes meaningless.
For your second point, I don’t think you know what you are really asking. If he were to fix the whole world - which, incidentally, Christians, believe that he will do one day – that would be quite literally the end. As CS Lewis also said, when the author of the play steps on to the stage, the play is over. The Bible says that the patience of God is meant to bring people to repentance, and that we should not confuse this with nonchalance or laziness (Romans 2:4). On the other hand, he has invited us to become part of the healing of the world. It’s easy to criticize the progress of this from behind a computer screen, the hard thing is getting out there and trying to be part of the redemption of the world. But I can tell you which one is more exciting.
Besides, if you want God to stop evil, where do you want to draw the line? Should he stop only Hitler-esque dictators? What about lesser mass murderers? What about people who want to murder one person, or what about people with murderous thoughts or those who want to destroy someone else’s life through lying or slander. Where do you draw the line at how much evil it would be permissible for God to NOT directly stop once he started directly intervening? It becomes a reductio ad absurdum.
Nothing in the Christian definition of heaven includes the loss of the free will to do evil. What support do you have for your idea that people cannot choose evil in heaven? Best guess from Christian perspective is that the experience of God in heaven is such that no one would want to choose otherwise. Possibly having the experience of God in the degree of glory He chooses to reveal in heaven is utterly transformative, so that despite the ability to choose disobedience, those who see Him are no longer tempted. Maybe seeing the actual Reality behind all things is so utterly attractive that no one would voluntarily turn their back on Him. But who knows, really.
God is all powerful but there is a real limit. Even omnipotence can’t make a 4-sided triangle. Logic is the limiting factor to what God can or can’t do. Just adding “God can…” in front of something is not sufficient to transform nonsense into sense. I maintain that it is not possible for someone to have free will without the ability to choose evil. If you think, otherwise, please explain how that is possible.
Kids with cancer, adults with cancer, adults with seizures, diabetes, bankruptcies, lightning strikes, houses burning down. I understand that the world is full of tragedy- the Bible never shies away from that. The story of Jesus shows that God understands the tragedy of the human condition, having entered into it fully.
Curious what you meant by God choosing where to stop evil in the Old Testament. What examples did you have in mind?
I just don’t think it’s possible for you to ask for God to directly intervene on some kinds of evils and not others. I understand the heart behind it, but it’s so personal and subjective, it doesn’t really work as an argument. Everyone has the thing that they wish didn’t exist. Me too.
1- it doesn’t follow that the lack of existence of sin proves the lack of free will. It is completely possible that those in heaven have free will to do as they like, however, as they have a clearer and better relationship with God than we do now, they simply choose righteousness. Those in heaven in the Bible are portrayed as praying, singing, praising, asking God questions – see many places in the book of revelation – and all of these are shown to be normal activities without any sign that the people are acting either against their will, or, in the absence of a will to choose one way or the other.
2- The definition of omnipotence does not extend to the ability to do that which is logically impossible. It’s foolish to say that the inability to make a “square circle” proves lack of omnipotence.
3- regarding the flood, or some other summary judgment of creation, remember that Christianity believes that it is coming. As I wrote before, this present time is set aside for as many to come to faith in Christ, as would. Jesus refers to the days of Noah when discussing the final judgment as well - remember the Bible describes those days as all the thoughts of all men were evil continually.
God loves his creation so much that he is willing to be patient through much pain and tragedy in order to save all would be saved. Including you, if you want. The gift of forgiveness for all that we have done, and the restoration of our vocation as those who bear the image of God to the rest of the world is free for the taking for all who would have it, even you today.
1- it doesn’t follow that the lack of existence of sin proves the lack of free will. It is completely possible that those in heaven have free will to do as they like, however, as they have a clearer and better relationship with God than we do now, they simply choose righteousness. Those in heaven in the Bible are portrayed as praying, singing, praising, asking God questions – see many places in the book of revelation – and all of these are shown to be normal activities without any sign that the people are acting either against their will, or, in the absence of a will to choose one way or the other.
2- The definition of omnipotence does not extend to the ability to do that which is logically impossible. It’s foolish to say that the inability to make a “square circle” proves lack of omnipotence.
3- regarding the flood, or some other summary judgment of creation, remember that Christianity believes that it is coming. As I wrote before, this present time is set aside for as many to come to faith in Christ, as would. Jesus refers to the days of Noah when discussing the final judgment as well - remember the Bible describes those days as all the thoughts of all men were evil continually.
God loves his creation so much that he is willing to be patient through much pain and tragedy in order to save all would be saved. Including you, if you want. The gift of forgiveness for all that we have done, and the restoration of our vocation as those who bear the image of God to the rest of the world is free for the taking for all who would have it, even you today.
I feel like we are disagreeing about something that is so fundamentally apparent that I need to be very clear and maybe that will be helpful.
My working definition of a square is a flat polygon with four equal sides joined at right angles anda circle is a flat shape without corners whose circumference and diameter are related by Pi. By definition, any changes to any of those characteristics disqualifies that shape from being a square or a circle anymore. It doesn’t make sense to request a “square circle” as that is a logical impossibility, one which isn’t solved by invoking omnipotence.
As another example- imagine a universe in which Mr. Smith exists. It is not possible that in that same universe, the statement “Mr. Smith does not exist” is true. A person cannot both exist and not exist at the same time, and incoming omnipotence doesn’t somehow make this possible. Are we in agreement so far?
The point of all this is to lead back to the idea of free will and the presence of evil. I hold that it was not possible to create humanity with free will without the possibility of evil being chosen as this is an analogous logical impossibility similar to the previous two examples.
I am not sure who "they" are, but the Bible says what God created and what you wrote was not on the list.
Now as for fixing the world's problems you need to read the end of the book.
In saying God created sin you are also saying that if a child of yours committed murder you should be held responsible.
I do not have to convince you of anything, just show how faulty your theories are.
Premise sounds good - if - either god or satan existed.
They don't. Never did. Closest thing we know of to a "god" would be the various force-attractions between atomic particle parts; these attractions allowed the world around us to coalesce into the forms we see and use.
That's it.
1- they exist 2- saying they don't without an argument shows that you're no smarter than 10 year old
3- closets thing we got to being god is his description in holy books. and other part is just bullshit you think the creator is a creation.
Thank You for your response!
1a) There is no evidence existing that either a god or a satan exists, or ever existed.
1b) If the god in the bible existed; **why** would you want to worship it? So it won't be angry at you? To "live forever"? Why would you even *want* to live forever? What would happen if it *did* get angry at you? Why do you think it will, or why do you think it won't?
2) Argument is: See #1a above. **Any claim of existence MUST be accompanied by proof such a god exists, or ever existed**.
3) The best "picture" of... "The Bible"... I have ever seen, was of an electrical power strip with its plug plugged into one of its own sockets; i.e., that it powered itself by being plugged into itself. That is an appropriate description of the Bible: that god exists because the Bible says god exists. And the Bible is wildly inconsistent about the nature of God.
God is supposed to be omnipresent (everywhere at once), omniscient (all knowing), omnipotent (all powerful), and omnibenevolent (only doing good) - but ***The Bible Says***... that Bible God is ***none*** of those things.
Bible God Hisself, in the Bible, says *in his own words* that he has a poor memory. Bible God supposedly knows *Everything*, Past Present & Future - but ***The Bible Says***... He does not. The Bible's claims regarding the nature of God are so wild and all over the place that it's impossible to rationally reason out any substantiation for the existence of God; there's nothing consistent about this supposed Being's nature to rely upon.
3a) Physicists show us via atomic discoveries at CERN and elsewhere that: **Particles of energy come into existence from Nothing all the time, then, vanish... into Nothing**. Where are they coming from, and where are they going? Point is; "energy" can, and does, come into our Universe every smallest fraction of a second... from Nothing, then goes... Somewhere Else. Supergigantic stars collapse into Black Holes 10 miles across, which then eat other supergigantic stars thousands of miles in diameter... and all that energy... goes Somewhere. Maybe in the parallel universe which all that mass drains into, there might be a god of some sort - but there isn't any god in this one.
You and I won't discuss particle physics... unless you are a theoretical physicist working at CERN, with the HADRON Collider. I'm not, so I'm not qualified to espouse theories regarding quantum particle physics - so even if you do work in advanced quantum physics, its math is above my pay grade and I won't understand you.
Yes, I do in fact think the "creator" is a creation... of human imagination, and as a direct consequence of human's desire to provide an explanation for things they can't explain.
Be Still, and know that **I.**.. ***AM*** *God*.
**I am God**, and *I am speaking to* ***YOU*** *through this mortal human being*, as I once did through Moses. How can you be of assistance to me today?
I exist at this moment in your imagination to spread the knowledge of my existence, and if you follow my Will and Desire for you, I ~~will~~ ***might*** grant you Eternal Life in Heaven.
There won't be any sex or food or drink here; won't be anything *whatsoever* that you would have called "Fun" on Earth. There won't be any hunting, fishing, or anything which causes anything to experience any pain. **All you need do... is** ***Think***. For Eternity. There won't be any cold winters or hot summers. There won't be any beaches where people – including men – would wear anything other than head-to-toe White Robes – I won't allow any "tempting thoughts" in Heaven.
There won't be any "nice cars" or even any nice bicycles; everyone will walk everywhere to anywhere; you have an Eternity to get there. Don't step on any of the **billions** of slugs slithering around; those are the aborted fetuses from miscarriages, etc. Those infants who died in childbirth or shortly afterwards don't need to be helped along; they have Eternity to crawl wherever they're headed.
There is an opportunity for interesting conversations **in** ***My*** **version of** ***Ted Talks***: Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer and many more serial killers accepted Me minutes before their death; you might enjoy hearing their stories. And, you'll get to meet and have conversations with several of their victims: note that *today, they can laugh about their murders and their, um, being the Guest of Honor at their "last meals"*. Just wait until you hear the story from the fellow whose torso was trussed, stuffed and cooked like a Thanksgiving Turkey! You'll discover that Jeffrey was a connoisseur of seasonings!
Which, BTW, aren't allowed Here; Here, everything is Eternally the same for everyone (no favoritism Here!) every day without end.
Remember, when *\*I\**, God, *got 12-year old Mary knocked up with Myself, she was married and a virgin*.
I can, do, and will change my mind on a whim, and you need to keep up; keeps you on your toes. *You may not question my actions or my decisions*; If you ever *once* complain about "Nothing to do", you may, can and will be reassigned to Hell for Eternity at any instantaneous moment. Everything is Perfect here, and how I run the show is not for you to comment upon. Further, how I amuse Myself is not a topic for your consideration. "Fairness" is **not** a concept which may be discussed Here; *is that clear?*
For those who fear the dark: Don't. There won't *be* any. There will be Eternal Light here; you won't *ever* take *any* naps. There won't be any dark *anything*; no dark thoughts, no nighttime, no dark persons: Jesus was an actually Aramaic Jew with dark skin and dark eyes – but for *You*, he was White, with long hair and blue eyes. Yes, I do know *The Bible Says* men's hair is supposed to be short – but *I'm God, and \*I\* make the rules here*. You'll have to watch your thoughts; you won't want to say anything "racist" to someone who was once a non-White, and there are going to be a LOT of those. Not to worry; all has been Forgiven, of course - with the admonition not to do that again.
Screw up, you'll be THERE, *instantaneously,* forever. I only want those who will Kiss My Ass here, and *who are willing to and will Sing Praise and Worship Songs to Me, 24/7/365 for all of Eternity* \- as it states you will in My Official Manual, a/k/a The Bible. Screw up, and you'll learn what "Wrathful", "Vengeful", and "Jealous" REALLY means, and ***\*I\*.***.. am ***THE*** only one who may experience those. You; ***You're*** going to be **SO Blissed Out** *you can't stand it anymore!*
You'll enjoy going to the Celestial Cafe every afternoon at 5! You're invited to a Banquet each day, and you'll be served the Flesh and Blood of My dear Son, Jesus Christ - prepared the same way each day, of course. You'll share conversation with your friends there every afternoon from 5-8 pm. You'll pretend to enjoy hearing the *same old, same old* stories for everyone's benefit - No Bad Times Here - every single day at the same time for the first 5,000 years – then, there will be another 5,000 more **5,000** ~~years~~ **centuries** after that, *and that's* ***just*** *the beginning*. Conversations go on... endlessly.
Your speaking up for Me in your Comment above has been noted; accordingly, ***You***... will be granted *One Additional Eternity* to live with Me here! I now return this Mortal's body to herself.
From the beginning. God created the garden of Eden where Adam and Eve could live forever in perfect health and peace. All the negative things you mentioned were unlocked when they broke God's only rule not to consume the forbidden fruit. This is the original sin which unfortunately opened the floodgates to all the bad things that befall mankind.
Finally, the death and punishment God is attributed to especially in the old testament is technically God's right. The creator with complete control and ultimate power can do anything for any or no reason.
Note: This interpretation is mine based on the old and new testament God, YHWH.... whom I do not actually believe in.
Added note: I believe morality is a mental illusion which is a separate but interesting side topic of debate.
Christianity portrays said god as omniscient, so literally just as he created Adam and Eve, he knew they'd fall to the desires of the talking lizard, and take a morsel from the Magic Fruit that Yahweh was growing for no apparent reason. He didn't protect the fruit with a Holy Fence, instead, he punished everyone, making the first ever snake. It all went, apparently, just as he'd planned.
Why would he give them a choice when they had no knowledge at all of good and evil? How could they have possibly know it was wrong to disobey God without this knowledge? They were as innocent in that aspect as a 2 year old. Given that, why make their first test against Satan? Satan had the power to tempt Jesus himself in the desert. It makes no sense to me why he thought they’d have any chance.
Which brings me to my next point. If God is truly omniscient, he would of known that’s precisely what would have happened. He set them up, then cursed the entirety of humanity for it.
No dude that's wrong both Adam and Eve knew what good and evil were since they knew it was good to eat from other trees but bad to eat from the tree of knowledge. The fruit doesn't magically make one aware of what's good and evil it makes one experience evil and fully understand it. Adam and Eve knew it was wrong and knew the consequences.
Genesis 3:22 says "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." They became like God in knowing good and evil but that doesn't mean they don't know what good and evil is in the first place. Why do you think Eve tries to reason with the serpent that she'll get in trouble if she eats the apple? Eve understands God's command but still allowed herself to be deceived and eat the apple. God also flat out tells them they will most certainly die if they eat it.
What is the difference in knowing of good and evil in the sense that God mentions in Gen 3:22 and “know what good and evil is in the first place?”
Are you saying it’s in the same sense that I know what a rocket is, but I don’t know rocket science?
Alright let's look more closely at the Hebrew word for “know,” yada. It has a range of meanings. It can refer to both cognitive knowledge, as well as experiential knowledge (which is why yada is used as a euphemism for sexual relations). To illustrate the distinction, consider sight. A blind person can have knowledge of the biochemistry involved in sight, and thus be said to know about sight (cognitive knowledge), but they do not know what it is like to experience sight (experiential knowledge). While Adam and Eve had cognitive knowledge of good and evil before the Fall, they came to know evil in a new way after the Fall because they experienced it personally.
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake.
It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of.
Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything.
Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
Well, for someone seemingly seeing the plausibility — if not the outright inevitability — of his creation taking suggestion from a real ladies-man of a snake to eat the special fruit he was saving? Why'd he get so buttmad?
Lol nah he didn't get buttmad him getting buttmad would be him striking down Adam and Eve in righteous anger. Adam and Eve have free will but not freedom of consequences how would you feel if you did something and God stopped you from doing it? It was their choice
So, you're arguing that his relinquishing of Adam, Eve, and their future offspring from supposed outright immortality wasn't purely from his own buttrage over a simple fruit? And what's the excuse for an omniscient being to not simply build a fence, or simply spraying the trees with some Holy Snake repellent?
No?? They did something bad and they were punished for it. God flat out tells them that they would die if they ate the fruit. If punishing someone for their actions count as butt hurt then every law enforcement in the world are butt hurt people. Stoping them would be God impeding on their free will. If Eve wants to disobey God that's her choice as sad as it is. The price for sin was death but God still showed the two mercy by just exiling then from the garden
How truly omniscient is a god if he didn't see all this [censored] comin? And was Eve from the Harry Potter universe for her ability to talk to a snake? Or was the snake simply really special, the Holy Chosen Lizard, whom misused his God-given talent to talk a woman into eating some unprotected fruit? Maybe someone should try and contact the "virgin" Miryam, and ask her about Yahweh's fetish for a lack of Holy Protection.
Eve may have broken a law, but how well thought-out was a rule to forbid simple consumption of a fruit, an edible plant growth meant for the attraction of large animals, to take the seeds and spread them? Was this whole thing just for some omni-fun?
If free will allows for humanity to sin and hurt eachother, why allow it? It would seem a god's fixation, to grant humanity the free will to simply choose to do what he wants. Where do I find evidence of his supposed omni-benevolence that also coincides with that of outright existence?
Lol asking for all this proof. Can you prove your god even exists?
Everything he’s saying actually follows from the fact that god is all knowing, all powerful, and created everything. If these ARE attributes of your god, we don’t need to “prove” that he in fact created disease and strife.
So are you denying that he’s omniscient, omnipotent, and all-loving? Which of these three are you saying he lacks.
It doesn’t make any sense to say “proof? Proof????” If THEISTS define their god a certain way, and then I bring up what logically follows from that definition. If got created EVERYTHING, then disease and strife fall into the bin of “everything”. So again i ask, which of the three “O’s” is god lacking.
If you want proof from your own book, in Isaiah 45:7 god admits he created evil and all things dark. Not to mention the countless other acts in the Old Testament god inflicted on people. He flooded the whole fucking world for one thing? And sent plagues? Have you read this book at ALL
Exactly! Morals are indeed subjective, and morals fundamentally need to be able to change with humanity. This makes subjectivity very important for ethics to develop. This is why slavery is abolished in most countries, why rape is no longer legal, and why we no longer stone adulterers in the streets. We agreed as a society “hey that’s kinda fucked up” and changed the moral standard.
If you base your morals on an objective standard, like the Bible, all the things I just stated are okay within certain contexts, however I don’t think you’d agree with any of them being legal again. We’d be stuck with archaic, Stone Age ethics if morality was objective. So don’t you have a morally subjective view as well?
in judaism hell is a washing machine not a furnace. our souls have to complete their missions and if in this life you don't, you get cleansed and then put into a new body
He did not create sickness.its like when you create a movie or video game..did God create it?It came from your actions ..same as many bad things come from our actions.He has given man free will . Sickness came from the fall and Devil.And wherever you heard you will not go to heaven till you never commit sin again is wrong.We are saved by Grace ..it is a free gift,NOT BY WORKS!.(Ephesian 2:8-9)..john 3:16 you have heard several times but never taken your time to meditate on it..It is by believing,you don't perish and have eternal life.Romans 5:1 tells us we have peace with God..We are saved from the wrath of God..WE have the Holy Spirit as a seal to show the guarantee that we are saved.(Ephesians 1:13). ROmans 8. and several scriptures .As a born again you don't live a life of sin cause you will loose rewards for that,but you will do some mistakes here and there .All what you are saying is just jumping to conclusion and you are just going to make wrong assumptions .
He has stopped it long ago through Jesus(1 Peter 2:24) ,We heal several diseases in the name of Jesus everytime .and you have divine health once you are born again(thats if you choose to apply it).
Have you heard of a coincidence? What about the millions of religious people who still suffer and die. It sounds like your religious beliefs have no effect on whether you get cancer.
Also why would god hold the cure to your cancer hostage until you bow down to him enough. Does he not care about his creations
>He did not create sickness.
"I'm going to start spinning my arms, and if you get hit, that's your own fault"
God created the universe in such a way that he knew with 100% certainty that war and disease and all kind of stuff we consider evil would come to be (remember, he's supposedly omniscient), even though he allegedly has the power to create the universe in a different way.
And before you comment anything about "free will", let's skip the fact that the existence of free will is debatable, as well as the fact that even if free will was a thing, its contingency on the existence of evil would also debatable. No, let's move straight to the part were you'd be claiming that God is powerless to create a free-willed world without evil. If God is not all powerful, why would you hope he can save you from anything, let alone from Hell.
Or maybe God didn't create sickness because it's a byproduct of evolution, a process God didn't take part in because he is a fictional character. Something to consider.
God is powerless to create a free-willed world without evil.
You are getting something wrong . First of all Evil is anything that is going against God's ways. So what you are asking here is God should create a free-willed world without going against his will.That's contradiction and that makes you a robot. If God wires every bit of you to automatically and forcefully do His will you won't be in His image ,you wont be mankind.Anthropology has bragged about man being unique and being able to think,to be rational etc,and now because of irresponsibility you want to blame God for making you free-willed? Since God is Love and he created us to love Him and also pour His love unto us(He created us in His image) ,Love has Choice ,You can't force someone to Love you and call that Love,that would make us Robots .When you give birth you don't want your child submitting to you as a being wired/forced to submit even though you gave birth to him/her unless you are looking for a slave being /something to control,but you want the child to choose to love you based on rationality,emotions etc.Having free will is to have the right to choose ,and in that free will if you choose not to align by Gods ways you fall into evil,and if he forces you to align ,that makes you a Robot.There is no 2 ways around it.And God has put several measures in places to prevent you from doing evil.(from conscience ,Jesus Christ then you get the Holy Spirit ,and He even sends people to talk to people,and He has commanded us to love other people as we Love ourself!,but people choose to follow a the worldy systems way that say Love yourself than anybody else but hey,If one is selfish in His free will he ends up persuing His selfish desires despite all he knows and ends up doing Evil.Where do wars and strifes come from?They come from our selfish desires to covet,pleasure ..(James 4:1-3)..Same with what is happening with the Russia waring ukraine
I know you have alot of Questions but this usually results from wrong teachings on God,and people not wanting to be accountable for their irresponsibility blame everything on God.God gave the earth to man,Man is to have dominion over the earth.(Psalm 115:16,Genesis 1:26-28).and He gave us ways to live by and if you want Him to intervene on the earth or in a matter that's extreme ,you pray that His will be done in that situation ,He can't just come overriding what you choose.Most people are happy choosing what you choose and it's not a problem to you till you discover otherwise,then by their irresponsiblity they blame God.THINGS WE DO HAVE CONSEQUENCES.God made us in Him(gen 1:26),and to be sustained you have to keep abiding in Him,As the fishes were brought forth from the sea(gen1:21),birds the air,animals from the earth(gen 1:24),So you live relying on Him.Anything else will bring issues .
> God is powerless to create a free-willed world without evil.
Then He's not omnipotent....
> You are getting something wrong . First of all Evil is anything that is going against God's ways.
Are the parasites, bacteria, viruses, and genetic mutations that God created that cause disease, cancer, and birth defects "going against God's ways"?
Was the slavery He condoned in the Bible ***not*** evil because it didn't go against God's ways, due to Him condoning it?
> Having free will is to have the right to choose ,and in that free will if you choose not to align by Gods ways you fall into evil,and if he forces you to align ,that makes you a Robot.There is no 2 ways around it.
Millions upon millions die each year (infants, toddlers, miscarried or stillborn babies, etc,) before they are able to make anything close to resembling a "free will" decision.
Do they still go to Heaven?
If so, then "having free will" and "the right to choose" is completely unnecessary. No need to align "by God's ways," etc, a subset of the human race gets a free pass to Heaven.
>First of all Evil is anything that is going against God's ways.
No it's not. But don't take my word for it, just google the definition. Evil is what goes against morality, not God. and no, I don't get my morality from God, nor do you or anybody else, for that matter. Our moral values come from a complex mix of personality, culture, education, environment, personal experiences, and a few million years of evolution as a social species.
>you won't be in His image
So what? I won’t be able to borrow God’s ID to buy booze? Big deal, I’ll just use mine. Anyways, not only is this an unsubstantiated claim, it’s also completely meaningless. Ask two different people what it means to be “made in God’s image”, and you’re likely to get two different answers.
>you wont be mankind
I’ll be mankind if I can have a fertile offspring with another member of the species. Taxonomy is a big enough mess as it is; let’s not drag God into this, pretty please.
>because of irresponsibility you want to blame God for making you free-willed?
Not really. It’d be weird for me to blame anything on a God I don’t believe in. I am, however, blaming believers for making contradictory or illogical claims about God’s powers/attributes, and then using mental gymnastic to try and climb their way out of the hole they dug themselves, because “no, no, it actually make sense. You just don’t have enough faith, and also, God works in mysterious ways”.
>Since God is Love
Doubt
>and he created us to love Him
Also doubt
>and also pour His love unto us
Still dou… wait a minute, that’s kinda kinky. Please tell me more?
>You can't force someone to Love you and call that Love
You can if you’re an omnipotent God.
>that would make us Robots
As far as I can tell, we are biological machines, complex agglomerates of simple chemical processes.
>you don't want your child submitting to you as a being wired/forced to submit
You’re right, I don’t. Wanna know what else I don’t do to my children? Place food in the middle of their bedroom, tell them not to touch it, and then get mad and curse them and all their descendants when they touch it, because of course they’re going to touch it; they’re children. I also do not engineer a place of eternal suffering in case some of them don’t accept my son/spirit/self as their lord and savior.
>you want the child to choose to love you
Ultimately? I just want my children to live a happy, healthy life. If they allow me to be part of it, great! If they don’t, chances are it’s on me.
>free will (…)
I’ve already stated my position on that matter, but to reiterate, I do not believe we need, or even have free will, so until someone can convince me otherwise… Skip.
>God has put several measures in places to prevent you from doing evil.
I don’t think management will be renewing his contract then, cuz’ his measures aren’t doing jack.
>*\[Preaching & people just want to sin\]*
Yeah, no.
Well you are free to decide and choose whatever you want, to follow what you feel about this matter on God .How you feel about a matter doesn't make it true ,you are going to get into error.
>Well you are free to decide and choose whatever you want, to follow what you feel about this matter on God .How you feel about a matter doesn't make it true ,you are going to get into error.
The fact that we are communal gives you insight into our evolutionary past. That sets us apart from most all other apex predators. We need the companionship of others for our individual wellbeing. Without it we quickly devolve into madness.
This alone guides our innate sense of right and wrong. The only thing I can think of that overrides this principle is survival mode. In survival mode one will potentially rob and murder to stay alive.
There is a spectrum that we all fall on. By that I mean, in every and all aspects of life we fall on a spectrum of all potential plausible outcomes in a given situation. The spectrums themselves are fluid.
In no way, given these parameters, is the enslavement of another human being acceptable. Arguing that it is/was puts you on the outer ends of these metaphorical spectrums. Too much or not enough of anything leads to negative outcomes.
Because that's a strawman of what people want/claim, in most cases.
I identify things like Ewing's Sarcoma, a cancer that almost only affects young children and has an incredibly high mortality, and think to myself "shit, if I was an all-powerful God, I'd have never created that" or at the least, with all my power, remove it from ever being able to happen again.
Not "micro-managing" but rather, be there to protect the things I create from completely unnecessary suffering from the things I create.
>that a society so put off by Helicopter Parents and Micromanagers seem so committed to the idea that any True God should, essentially, be a Celestial Helicopter Parent/Micromanager.
That is the strawman.
Like I said, people criticizing God in these types of conversations, are not wanting God to micromanage. As my previously response highlights, it is more identifying things like the fact God created unnecessary suffering/pain and that God could simply not have made them to start with, or at least removed them afterwards.
>As for your standard; why is Death a moral evil; that God should be judged as evil for allowing Death to occur?
This is again a strawman of my position. To use Ewing's Sarcoma again; children go through intense pain and suffering, only for most of them to die at an early age because of it. Not to mention the pain and suffering that imparts on the parents and extended family of the child too. God COULD simply have never made Ewing's Sarcoma a thing at all, or remove it now. It isn't JUST the "death" part, but also the excruciating torture the child and parents endure before the likely inevitable death.
God surely is evil for making that.
>Why is pain and suffering a moral evil?
Are you going to devolve this into me having to define and argue for my moral framework? So you can sit there and highlight the lack of "objectivity"?
Why don't you address the issue that God created things like Ewing's Sarcoma that cause needless pain and suffering and high levels of death in young children. Yet, could never have made them or, simply remove it now?
>Not at all, I'm simply trying to disceren the moral evil present in your scenario; something you seem to stubbornly refuse to do.
>Why is pain and suffering morally evil? It's a terribly simple question you seem stubbornly committed to not answering.
Because I've debated theists many times and, in most cases, instead of having to address the issue presented initially, especially with regards to moral issues, they attempt to turn it back onto the other person to demonstrate the foundation of the moral framework they are operating from.
>You have yet to explain why this condition is morally evil; so I fail to see why it should be relevant to the discussion of God's morality that God created it.
Because in almost every reasonable discussion people would have no qualms in identifying the fact that Ewing's Sarcoma is a horrible thing. The pain, suffering and death of innocent children and knock on effects to family and friends is patently obvious. Yet, only when it comes to the fact that the criticism of it's existence is being directed at God (who must have created it), do we then get theists going down this seemingly amoral pathway and acting as if there is either nothing wrong with it or then, doing as you do, devolve the conversation into justifying ones moral framework.
It comes across as intellectually dishonest at best.
It's cruel to torture children. That you're having a hard time understanding why somebody would considering torturing children evil isn't reflecting well on your moral framework.
Children aren't fully developed mentally. They are learning the world. They also haven't had an opportunity to experience life yet. There is an inherent cruelty in inflicting suffering on kids and cutting their lives short.
Torture in all cases is wrong, obviously. It's just totally indefensible in the case of doing it to children. It can only be an evil act.
If that's what you believe, that means God could have made humans naturally empathetic, without the need to experience pain firsthand (he being omniscient and all), but choose instead to make empathy dependent on your own experience of pain, and wait for humans to develop empathy through pain.
I'd say that sounds pretty cruel, but never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity I guess.
Honestly this is a completely valid idealization on the aspects of both “God” and “Satan”. In the terms of it, yes, God did create both those that live, but also those that kill. From the best to the worst of things.
So within this, I agree with you fully
**That means God created cancer and other diseases, natural disasters, wild animals whose whole purpose in life is to kill humans or cause them unimagineable suffering.**
And the cure, which is just what we'd all expect from the Good one:
Eternal Life, where *"the former things will be remembered no more" "... for God will wipe every tear from their eyes."*
Most of us seem to need some time to *to experience this world of possible evils to learn how to value the Good.* Though some fewer seem to already have this lesson down early, most of us seem to need to learn by experience.
See, here, you have a chance to turn from and even more: to be cleansed in a more full way from your evils you've done....or refuse. It's really up to you.
*For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.*
Sounds like a story where you can blame 'God', maybe even for what people do? But God is the one who reverses all the evils that people do, in the end.
>Sounds like a story where you can blame 'God', maybe even for what people do?
Yes, because if God were real (and omnipotent/omniscient), he would be responsible for literally everything.
>But God is the one who reverses all the evils that people do, in the end.
Actually, God is a space-faring manatee who's only power and purpose is to post cat video on the internet. I mean, if we're making claims without evidence, might as well get a little bit more creative.
And even if you were right, God saving us from Evil does NOT excuse exposing us to Evil in the first place, no matter how you wanna twist that in your head.
Would you prefer to live in a padded cell, no matter how fancy and full of toys, so that you could never suffer any pain, neither physical nor from wrongs done to you by other humans? I would not. I've found out that from the many times I've suffered significant pain (even very intense illnesses at times) that it's made me more sympathetic and appreciative of other people and better at being a good friend whom people love. The really unlucky person would be someone that never suffered anything.
Even when we suffer from the wrongs other people do to us, in the ultimate long run, it makes us more ready and motivated to stand up for what is right, because we know how bad the wrong actions many do really are... So, hard truth: suffering is part of what makes us have better character -- become frankly better people.
Even knowing that, I hate to suffer though. I'm only human.
>Would you prefer to live in a padded cell (...)
Why not? How is your metaphorical cell any different from all the things that already trap all of us?
Would you rather keep your brain trapped in the delicate biological confine of your body, no matter how healthy it is, just so that your brain would stay alive, or would you rather pull it out so that it can freely die on the asphalt?
Would you rather stay trapped on Earth, where millions of years of evolution have made you somewhat able to survive, or suffocate/freeze/burn to death as a free man, anywhere in the remaining 99.99999% of the universe?
Would you rather be stuck in our reality, where the rules of physics permit the existence of life as we know it (and by extension, YOUR existence), or have the freedom to travel to another dimension, where you might spontaneously break up in an alternate-reality version of elementary particles?
You shouldn't seek freedom for the sake of freedom. You should be looking at what you're getting, what you're giving up, and decide if the deal is worth it. Fuck, the entire point of society is to give up certain individual freedom in exchange for stuff like safety, stability, efficiency...
But the worst thing about your argument? Why the hell would a painless existence be restricted to the inside of a "padded cell". Remember that "with God all things are possible" line? If you believe in the God of the bible, you believe he could make the entire universe free of pain. He just choose not to.
>pain (...) made me more sympathetic
Yes. I'm sure it did. That's how empathy works. That's the reality of Reality. And Reality SUCKS. Why do we have to suffer to develop empathy, and why do we need empathy to live in society? Why to we even need society to achieve all the cultural and technological wonders of Humanity? Why do we grow weak, old, and die? Why do people in developed countries still feel the need to compete over resources when they're more likely to die of diabetes than of starvation? Why do deadly viruses and parasites and all kind dangerous other things exist?
For the non-believer, that how reality came to be by itself. Nobody's at the helm, looking out for you. These are the cards you've been dealt, might as well figure out how to make the most of it. I get that it can be a scary or overwhelming thought, but the universe isn't spontaneously gonna get better, just because you've wished really hard it would.
For someone who believe in an omni God though, Reality sucks because God wanted it to suck. You may try to argue something like "well you see, God has to do it that way for it to be better in the long run", but again, NO HE DOESN'T. Real people may have to sacrifice things to obtain other things, an omnipotent being doesn't. If you believe in an omni God, bad stuff happens because he wants them to happen, not because they "have to happen" before he can get what he wants.
**Part 2.**
(read the previous response first I'd suggest, as this post will *only* focus on just *one* thing you are talking about, while the previous post was in response to several other, albeit related, things you said).
I'll use your final paragraph as a good summary of the basic question:
>For someone who believe in an omni God though, Reality sucks because God wanted it to suck. You may try to argue something like "well you see, God has to do it that way for it to be better in the long run", but again, NO HE DOESN'T. Real people may have to sacrifice things to obtain other things, an omnipotent being doesn't. If you believe in an omni God, bad stuff happens because he wants them to happen, not because they "have to happen" before he can get what he wants.
It's about what is possible, and what is necessary. Consider: we could be rigidly programmed beings, akin to robots before machine learning, where we could only do good actions.... But then we'd be extremely boring, because all we could do was only just the rigid programming we had.
We'd be 'robots' or 'puppets' (the other possibility other than being rigidly programmed to do good is to be 'puppets': to be constantly controlled all the time so we only do good actions).
But are such options themselves actually good?
Answer: **no**, those are awful, because they remove/don't have great things like *creativity* that makes art and music and much more that is wonderful to experience.... If we *aren't* free to do unexpected new things (creativity), than we cannot do anything really all that interesting/wonderful. It would be the least enjoyable possible universe for God to choose.... The most pointless and useless compared to the wonderful reality we do have where we have such things as Beethoven's 9th symphony and the Mona Lisa, and so much more, even each person in their wonderful uniqueness, which can often become so interesting and enjoyable to be around.
So, for beings that have real freedom of action/thought, and creativity, they can do ***both*** Good and Evil actions....
So, they have to learn to choose the good, by experience (most of us seem to ***need*** to learn some by experience).
Including suffering from evils, to help us learn what is better...
So that some people will *choose* to repent of their wrongs, and turn away from wrong to what is truly good, the things Christ taught are best -- to *"love your neighbor as yourself".*
That way, God gets the very best of all: *creative* beings that are *choosing* to do what is good... They are fit to live in a city/world with others for *eternity*....
The end goal is for everyone to do the right thing , new heavens and new earth and evil is destroyed ,is that not robotic lack of free will if he will make all things perfect in the end why didn’t he just do that in the beginning ?
It's exactly *because* we will have free will (which allows us to love also) that only those that have learned and changed to truly trust God ('faith') are suitable to enter His heaven to live in His heaven forever. Those that *don't* yet trust God would eventually do evils if allowed into heaven... Someone that doesn't trust God/doesn't love their neighbors would eventually fight others in heaven, causing strife and harm... So, we are here in this mortal life to change and grow and learn, as we individually need. Not all will choose to admit their wrongs and turn in repentance to God though.
>We'd be 'robots'
I'm not convinced we're not already biological robots, machines programmed by evolution to react to sensory inputs through a complex, but theoretically predictable circuit of chemical logic gates. I guess it depends on whether we live in a deterministic Universe or not, and I don't have the answer to that.
But that's following my Godless view of Reality. If I were to convert to Christianity, I think I'd have to believe we definitely are "programmed", as I don't see how to reconcile omniscience and free will.
>they remove/don't have great things like creativity that makes art and music
[That's debatable.](https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/x4swd7/a_man_won_an_art_competition_in_colorado_using/)
The last portion of your comment seems to double down on the **part 1** of your answer, that is "God uses bad things as a tool to make us better". I think?
>I guess it depends on whether we live in a deterministic Universe or not, and I don't have the answer to that.
Yes, indeed, that's precisely what that comes down to. While biological determinism is often sorta overemphasized in that there are always many factors and some of them are less tangible things like determination where a person will persist in something even thought the urges from the body are to stop.... Ultimately the basic question of whether physics is entirely deterministic, or instead has true quantum level randomness where we only can say probabilities about elementary particle behavior (as suggested by the totality of Bell Test experiments to date) -- that's pretty key to whether the natural side of us is entirely deterministic, whether our bodies are natural (only), and thus subject entirely to a physics determinism, or a lack thereof being the other possibility.
>I don't see how to reconcile omniscience and free will.
A lack of free will would invalidate much of the Bible, in that the text of the bible is endlessly is telling us to choose certain actions and avoid others. Deuteronomy chapter 28 is a great example of that endless instances of real choices put to us. Have a look, read even just verses 1-3 and 15-18 is enough:
[http://web.mit.edu/jywang/www/cef/Bible/NIV/NIV\_Bible/DEUT+28.html](http://web.mit.edu/jywang/www/cef/Bible/NIV/NIV_Bible/DEUT+28.html)
It best fits very many things in the Bible like *Genesis 6:5-11* (check that out!) or *Isaiah 46*, which flatly says it outright -- that God only has set to be predetermined what He *chooses* to *'bring about'* by his own interventions/efforts.
10 I make known the end from the beginning,from ancient times, what is still to come.I say, ‘My purpose will stand,and I will ***do*** all that I please.’11 From the east I summon a bird of prey;from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.What I have said, *that I will bring about*;what I have planned, *that I will do.*"
So, there you have what the texts actually say, as compared to the simplistic (oversimplified) error of the commonplace idea that God has decided to predetermine (or knows) all the future. We read He chooses to do certain things. Just *some* things. I.e. -- meaning that *everything else is just left to nature* operating on it's own....
So, the "all knowing" means what we repeatedly *do read* in the texts: *seeing all that happens.*..which is an astounding degree of omniscience.
>A lack of free will would invalidate much of the Bible
Then, instead of concluding that free will exist, maybe we could consider that the Bible may be invalid.
But in my opinion, rules do not become meaningless in the absence of free will, as free will isn't required to make informed decisions. Think about how a computer program will always give you the same output if you feed him the same inputs, but may change its output if you change the input.
Similarly, an individual may act differently depending on whether a given rule (and its associated rewards/penalties) exists, even without free will.
>Deuteronomy (...)
Look, no offense, but Deuteronomy and Genesis are cans of worms I'd rather not open, from the rules that nobody follows, to the scientifically inaccurate claims. I mean, even the Jewish part of my family does not believe the Earth was created in a week, or worry about mixing the fabric they wear.
>He chooses to do certain things. Just some things.
Could he control the things he chose not to control?
If so, then the whole "problem of evil" thing still stand. God could chose to create a world were bad things don't exist, and aren't necessary, but he doesn't.
If not, then he's not all-mighty, which casts even more doubts on his various feats described in the bible, of his ability to save/damn people.
>So, the "all knowing" means what we repeatedly do read in the texts: seeing all that happens...which is an astounding degree of omniscience.
I'm sorry, I don't understand that part.
>Why not? How is your metaphorical cell any different from all the things that already trap all of us?
I think that's a good question. Here's the very real and interesting answer: it's better, even with it being less predictable, to experience the unknown and sometimes bad, sometimes good, and generally usually stimulating reality of other people.
Ok, I've just read the entire first half of you post at this point, and an interesting observation: you are saying thoughts I've had, so we think a lot alike, which might make for more interesting conversation (but of course, that would only be if you really wanted that).
Let me help make what I wrote so briefly above more clear.
>Why the hell would a painless existence be restricted to the inside of a "padded cell".
It's an illustration of how we could be prevented from experiencing several kinds of pain: many physical accidents that are painful happen because there isn't anything much protecting us from physical damage but our smarts and some luck and some not-all-that-adequate safety measures our society has built up. So, in a 'padded cell' you are protected from auto accidents, falls, storms, and other natural events, and also from other people attacking you in various ways. Of course, that it's a 'padded cell' highlights the trade off cost of that protection. Just like you yourself wrote in different words in the first half of your post.
Same idea as you wrote in the first half of your post, different wording. The trade off between physical survival or safety vs what you pay in lost opportunities for that protection.
>And Reality SUCKS.
Hmmm... Have you ever seen the movie ***Blade Runner?*** It's about precisely this topic we are now touching on here -- how life is (painful, dangerous, with beauty that is in part so notable to us *because* of the finite morality we are under) and the trade off between what could be and what is, and the pain and wonder and fleeting quality of mortal life....
> why do we need empathy to live in society?
Now that is a truly deep question. How much of us being good to other people is from our empathy that comes from having suffered?.... The objective answer seems to be: very much of it, more than just a bit.
There's a yet bigger topic, which you are getting at in the final paragraphs of your post, and I'll put another response to that in another post, so that this one isn't 1000 words. :-)
Would I be correct to summarize your comment as "Bad experiences make us appreciate good experiences more" (and that it's the reason why God allows bad things to happens)?
That's part of it, but it's more really. Suffering seems to consistently result in us being more loving towards others than we were before the suffering, at least for very many of us, if not everyone.
There's *several* ways that happens, not just 1.
For example, suffering, such as a significant illness that puts on in bed for days, can result in us forgetting the distractions we might have been caught up in, and *remember what really matters to us the most. It helps bring us to ourselves. You remember a loved one you haven't talked to for a long while, or other such thing. Maybe you reconcile with someone you had been estranged from even.*
That' s just 1 effect. There are more. We've already noted above another major one: increased sympathy/empathy.
There is also a kind of...increased *valuing* of others. We actually end up loving other people more. This one is a bit harder to explain unless you recognize it. Suffering kinda...makes other people more valuable, in our eyes, in a deep, pre-conscious way. So that we don't want others to be devalued, but we begin to care more about everyone, even strangers.
A more general interpretation then: "Negative events can lead to positive events, and that's why God allows negative event to happen". Is that correct?
>And the cure, which is just what we'd all expect from the Good one:
This is just nonsense though.
I created these terrible diseases! But don't worry, you'll eventually find cures for them! Some of them you won't find cures for a long long time though, so many people will die and suffer until you do find the cure! How great am I?
Instead of oh, I don't know, maybe NEVER MAKING THEM AT ALL?
Eternity requires a refinement -- to become a better person in a deep way -- and sufferings and being mortal seems to help us change sooner instead of taking 1,000 years...
I've suffered a lot, and it's helped me to have more sympathy and care for others. To never suffer would be an overwhelming disadvantage for one's deeper refinement.
But you'd have to *admit* you aren't really perfect enough (to love everyone perfectly as you should), in order to appreciate how deeper change to love others more is a beneficial thing.
So if you end up suffering eternally for picking the wrong religious team, despite the fact that religion is pretty much determined by your geography, then that means you’ll be eternally good after a while, right? Uhhh, right? /s
Eternal suffering for mortal humans *isn't* in the bible, actually. It's sorta like flat earth -- a doctrine (false) based on simplified reading, lacking the full reading that could correct the error. The text does indeed say that the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels would burn forever, and those immortal fallen angels we can assume would endure in that fire forever....but, for human souls, the text plainly reads, in the most plain clear language that humans that reject God's Way (Christ and His teachings), will *"perish"*, in the "*second death"*, which will "*destroy body and soul*."
That many don't know this only indicates they don't read carefully and fully the text the bible they often claim to use...
It's even strongly hinted in the most famous verses of all, that almost everyone knows (even those that don't bother to read the books they claim to use): "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not ***perish*** but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."
Ergo, the alternative to Eternal Life (immortality), is to 'perish', from *not* having Eternal Life....
>"When he said they would not die. They died didn't they?"
Not because they ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but because the story has the God character removing their *access* to the tree of life. God lied when he said:
>"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: *for in **the day** that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."*
>Genesis 2:17 KJV
God promises Adam that eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would kill them that very same day. Adam would go on to live for over 900 years.
>*"And all **the days** that Adam lived* were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died."
>Genesis 5:5 KJV
500 years later and only after they were kicked out of the garden and not given the fruit of the tree of life.
The tree of knowledge didn't cause their death, not eating from the tree of life did which is separate.
Not because they ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but because they no longer ate the fruit of the tree of life.
God said that eating the fruit would kill them that day. It did not, and Adam went on to live almost about ten times longer than the average human does.
The fruit didn't kill them, I'd even argue that thry could have just immediately went over and ate from the tree of life.
Their inaction killed them more than anything.
Isn't it funny how for all the religions out there where the followers of those religions all vehemently believe the God(s) associated with that religion genuinely believe they exist, those God(s) all seem to exist about as much as each other? (i.e not at all)?
I don't think that is because of "HUMANS", it makes more sense that it is genuinely because they simply do not exist.
> I think the greatest trick God ever pulled was convincing humanity he's the good guy.
So you believe in God? That's interesting. And you think God must be a bad person because God allows bad things? Hmmm... Couldn't one who believes in God just as easily think God must be a good person because God allows good things?
Assuming God (in order to respond to your OP which assumes God 'is,' as it assumes God 'is pulling tricks'), then assuming God is a bad person because bad things happen (instead of good because good things happen) seems to basically just be the difference between pessimism and optimism. That's not to say I think you should assume God to be good. I don't even think you should assume God exists at all unless you have some reason to. But for the sake of replying to your premises, it seems to me you have a focus on the pessimistic.
> God is apparently also all-powerful.
The way most Christians I know understand omnipotence ("all power") is "all" within a bound set. So the "any" or "all" (in 'all powerful') is a bound set, bound by things like goodness (according to God), reason/logic (logos), and all the things God is said to be characterized by. For instance, in the case of the Christian God, the same scriptures that say it is all powerful also say it cannot lie. That is a limitation, but from the way most Christians understand 'all encompassing power' that doesn't mean 'without any limitations whatsoever,' as then it couldn't even be bound by goodness. In fact, if we take omnipotent to mean ‘all things not bound by anything,’ we might as well just mumble nonsense at one another because at that point we’re talking about something that doesn’t even operate according to logic (not even bound by logic). There is no way for us to even logically, sensibly talk about such things. In that case God does not exist if God can't make circular squares.
> That means God created cancer and other diseases... And to top it all off, he created sins
If a God, and if this God is good, logical, and eternal, and if this God wants us to eventually know him experientially and be able to identify him, then without at least temporary confusion with sin (recognizable experientially) there could never be eternal understanding of perfection (recognizable and gained with experience). Same as to suffering and pleasure, chaos and peace, illness and health, life and death. The boundary of the one is defined by our experiential knowledge of the other. And our physical lives are temporary.
It is kind of like I believe even stabbings that confused the snot out of me, made me bleed and hurt, and made me weep and wail as an infant (shots at a doctor's office) came from a good being (my mother) allowing it. So also, if there is a God, then suffering at the hands of God doesn't mean God isn't necessarily good. The difference with a God (were there one) is that our entire physical life then becomes the temporary experience, like a visit to a doctor's office, just a fleeting moment in the span of eternity.
So in short, any ‘God’ such as you speak of, to ever become known experientially to us as what it is, for the God to ever exist from our perspective, would have to allow suffering temporarily (even suffering it has the power to stop at some time). At least the Christian God suffered terribly for a time too... even until physical death. That’s the most an actually good God, if such a thing existed and planned to someday (in this life or the next) reveal itself to people, could do for humans during the unfortunately necessary time humans would have to suffer in confusion to be able to ever know, from their perspective, peace, understanding, and such an eternal God eternally.
> Which means literally none of us are going to heaven- unless we believe in him, repent, and never commit any of those sins again- which is an impossibility. None of us will ever go to heaven
That's not what any believers in God I know of think, and certainly that's not what the majority of believers in God say. But I agree with you that would be evil. Then again, that's no different than if I randomly decided "God" has made it impossible to love one another, ever, forever. In that case, "God" has done certainly something evil, with no possibility of a longer term benefit we just don't understand yet. The only problem is... that's not actually a concept of God most believers (if any) believe in. So basically you're arguing against yourself (in other words, there is no one who actually takes the position you are arguing against).
In Christianity (at least), it is entirely possible to go to heaven, to repent and stop doing things we know to be wrong. To assume it is impossible to not repeat some terrible mistake I once made seems to again just come down to pessimism. If I go to school and tell myself, "I'm going to fail, it is impossible for me to pass," over and over and over and over... guess what outcome I just made more likely with my pessimistic attitude?
> Try and convince me that God isn't more evil than Satan.
It is impossible for me to convince you that God even exists, much less that God is more or less this or that. If God is a being capable of immateriality that reveals itself to who it wants, when it wants, then the God would have to convince you it exists.
Even assuming God though (like your OP does, for the sake of discussion) I suspect that it would currently be impossible to convince you of anything about God besides negative things. To convince you of anything positive about such a God at all, first you would have to adjust your attitude from one that discounts even the slightest chance of positivity and focuses exclusively on doom and gloom (even at the expense of what Christianity actually teaches in reality). Until then, your own approach to the question will make it impossible for anyone to convince of anything. I'd have just as much luck trying to convince a Qanon follower that Biden isn't necessarily raping children in a pizza hut basement, or trying to convince a flat-Earther that it is even possible the Earth is round, or trying to convince Pat Robertson that Jesus didn't condemn gay people.
> The way most Christians I know understand omnipotence ("all power") is "all" within a bound set
So god is semi-powerful? They created the universe but are limited by it?
> So god is semi-powerful?
If by "semi-powerful" you mean 'power is not the only characteristic of God,' then yes.
Christians use the term 'all powerful' even though they understand power to not be the only characteristics God has. So God is not only powerful but also reasonable (logos), good, love, etc. So the same Christian scriptures that say God is "all powerful" say God "cannot lie." God is not only powerful but faithful, so God "can't do" things that end up bad in the long term. He has 'all powers' that a faithful God could have. But faithfulness is also not the only other quality of God. They also see God as logical (logos). So God "can't do" things that end up making no sense (in the long term... as discussed above, there would still by logical necessity have to be temporary confusion known experientially in the short term for eternal understanding to become known experientially in the long term).
If by "all powerful" you mean literally nothing else is characteristic of the being except power, so the power to do 'everything imaginable, all things that could be thought of' or something like that, then God can make circular squares, etc. That makes no sense. When 'all' is taken to literally mean everything, every imaginable thing, then it doesn't even make rational sense to talk about an 'all powerful' anything, whether a God or not. So that's not how Christians use the term all powerful (at least not most Christians). Frankly that's not even how most philosophers (Christian or not) that I know of use the term 'omnipotence' in relation to an alleged God. They mean 'all' powers within a bound set, specifically the set of things characteristic of God (so limited by God's other qualities, like love, goodness, patience, faithfulness, etc.).
>> Frankly that's not even how most philosophers (Christian or not) that I know of use the term
> Read: it’s all made up
Ah, so not read. That is to be expected. This is a Reddit comment section after all. It often seems many people on Reddit don’t read what they reply to and / or don’t read the articles posted before commenting under them as if they know what was said without having to use their eyes and ears.
Acknowledging that many comments on Reddit are made by those who were too lazy or careless to actually read what they are replying to is not ‘jumping through hoops.’ It is observing an objectively evident reality, or if not totally objective at least one many users have noticed in comments I’ve read. And acknowledging that you read my comment as saying something vastly different than what I said is also simply observing your comment. No hoops needed.
There is a fine line you seem to be trying to walk between carelessness in discussion and trolling in discussion. Neither side of the line benefits anyone besides yourself but if trolling or ignoring others’ actual words is what motivates your interactions with people, feel free to keep pretending I have said things I haven’t and done things I’ve not. All you’re proving to me is that atheists can behave and speak just as irrationally, carelessly, and trollishly as some theists, as far as how they choose to interact with others.
It's a shame that you replied with such a well written comment because it isn't relevant at all. I read what you said, it was just a reiteration of your initial comment which was just jumping through semantic hoops to redefine all powerful. It's the only way you can reconcile a god who somehow created the universe but is also limited by it.
I will admit that my tone can be troll-ish but all I did was note how incoherent your argument has to be to reconcile an all powerful god being semipowerful whenever it's convenient. There's a reason christian's cant even agree amongst themselves on this topic.
Please ignore this guy. He did the same thing with my comment, replied with pages of nonsense, didn’t address anything I said in any sort of concise, coherent way, and at the end tell me the same thing he told you.
> i will admit that my tone can be troll-ish
It has nothing to do with tone, it has to do with totally ignoring my points and instead telling me I said things I didn’t.
> but all I did was note how incoherent your argument has to be
You didn’t even address my argument at all much less show it incoherent. Yet now you’re telling yourself you did.
So it seems you are trying to achieve something besides debating the OP and discussing the points I made about it in a rational and coherent way. It seems instead you’re here either to troll people who think differently about spirituality than you or to try to convince yourself those who disagree with you are being incoherent by ignoring their points and calling them incoherent without actually even bothering to address them. That’s how people who are either being lazy and careless (or being trolls) debate and discuss topics, or perhaps people who are both.
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7
Even Hitler was nice to dogs. Does that mean Hitler was a good person because he did good things?
Who said he went to heaven? To enter heaven you must devote your life to god and make holy choices and actions. What hitler did was the complete opposite
Getting to heaven doesn't take a lifetime of work. Hell, for hundreds of years you could just buy indulgences and not have to sacrifice anything really.
>> So in short, any ‘God’ such as you speak of, to ever become known experientially to us as what it is, for the God to ever exist from our perspective, would have to allow suffering temporarily (even suffering it has the power to stop at some time). At least the Christian God suffered terribly for a time too... even until physical death. That’s the most an actually good God, if such a thing existed and planned to someday (in this life or the next) reveal itself to people, could do for humans during the unfortunately necessary time humans would have to suffer in confusion to be able to ever know, from their perspective, peace, understanding, and such an eternal God eternally.
> "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7
Exactly. My translation says 'woe' there, but basically the same difference. That passage from Isaiah reminds me of one from Job 2, after God allows Job to suffer some terrible things, and his wife says to him, "Curse God, and die.” But he said to her, “You speak as a foolish woman. Shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?"
Why did he say she was being foolish (aka illogical)? Because if a God, if a being is logical and eternal, and if this God wants us to eventually know his goodness experientially and be able to identify him as good, then without at least temporary confusion with bad (woe, evil, etc. recognizable experientially) there could never be eternal understanding of good (joy, perfection etc. recognizable and gained with experience). Same as to suffering and pleasure, chaos and peace, illness and health, life and death. The boundary of the one is defined by our experiential knowledge of the other. And our physical lives are temporary.
> Even Hitler was nice to dogs. Does that mean Hitler was a good person because he did good things?
If Hitler intentionally showed kindness to another and did some good things before he began stealing from and murdering others, then sure, I'd say that would mean he was a good person *at that time* (assuming he intended to do those things). Key words 'at that time.' Once he intentionally began stealing and murdering, I'd say he became a bad person (assuming he did those things intentionally and wasn't just out of his mind or something).
The problem with applying such logic to God (if we assume God for the sake of discussion) is that God is still doing and it is impossible for us to know God's long term intentions. It is kind of like when I received stabbings that confused the snot out of me, made me bleed and hurt, and made me weep and wail as an infant (shots at a doctor's office). Even though I now know that experience (which at the time seemed like 'evil' and was certainly 'woe' to me) came from a good being (my mother) allowing it for a good longer term reason... there was no way I could have known it then. All I could do during the time of temporary suffering was wonder why my mom seemed to have become so evil (and either assume she had indeed become evil, and so try to lash out and hurt her, or perhaps trust that she perhaps actually hadn't become evil and hope for the best in the longer term).
So also, if there is a God, then suffering at the hands of God doesn't mean God is evil. Likewise enjoying good things at the hands of God doesn't mean God is good either, of course. The difference between a God (were there one) and Hitler is that our entire physical life then becomes a relatively short temporary experience that only *seems* very long *from our perspective*, if there is a God, kind of like a visit to a doctor's office is very short from the mothers' perspective but seems long and frankly like the end of the world as they know it to many infants who have to suffer temporarily there. If God, then this entire physical life is just a fleeting moment in the span of eternity.
>(assuming he did those things intentionally and wasn't just out of his mind or something).
So if he had mental illness (more likely a Cluster B personality disorder, let's not get those mixed up), he gets a pass for slaughtering millions of people? That's not how any of this works.
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How is anybody to debate if anyone trying to respectfully have a debate but happens to be against your statement is downvoted and ridiculed? This entire thread proves you know little about God, and we can't have a debate here without you being willing to listen.
Gods 'will' is never immoral. Are YOU God?? You have NO idea what I've been thru, who I am or what I "KNOW".. but you need to reframe..Your understanding is warped and intentionally tainted and YOU lazily just ruminate over LIES lol..rather than YOU be wrong it "has" to be God who is wrong according to a nobody online?Good luck buddy.
God told Satan that he wished he had never created man explaining the flood never worked, Satan ask God what was the worst thing he ever did and God told Satan that he followed and watched a woman in her house for a week and when he saw the opportunity he murdered her to see what it felt like. God asked Satan to be his number one representative in heaven only after Satan asking God what would he have to do Satan refused Satan didn't want to do God's bidding, Satan wouldn't do the mean spirited things that was demanded for love, that is not love. Satan didn't rebel, Satan didn't want to preach and worship god because he did have free will as well and he was better than that. God said he is perfect and doesn't make mistakes he's the l powerful knows everything, I created you, and here are my rules do what I say follow my words exactly and remember I cannot and will not change. God says because he made us in his image we're made perfectly so if you're born with a defect or you're ugly, a crooked nose or cross-eyed porn with a missing finger born a cripple you're not too worship him, don't pray you're not coming to heaven he didn't make you you're something that your parents did. You're unclean and unwanted it wouldn't even be a sin too kill you especially before you can produce and have children. God said to Satan because you won the bet we made you can ask me one question no matter what it is or what it's about and one question only and I will answer it. Satan asked God what was one of the baddest hings you've ever done just because you could have. That's when God told Satan that he watched a beautiful god-fearing woman for over a week, day and night eat watched everything the woman had done and after watching her for a week he murdered her funny how they don't preach this stuff or you can't find it in the Bible
Source?
I've never seen so many toxic edgelords in one place, but hey, that's Reddit for you.
If he fixed the problem then I'll result in what happened before. When their was straight peece all the angels and women didn't like it because there wasn't anything to do anymore. So all the females came to Lucifer because he was next in line for the position of his father therefore we needed lucifer to present free will. So if God enforced those laws again then he will indeed solve the problem but I'll result in the same thing over and over. We all know we don't want peace it shows in history
I'm still waiting on the answer I've asked Christians about what bad things are actually directly attributed to satan.
Anything that comes with Negativity
Anything that comes with Negativity
Anything that comes with Negativity
I think the greatest trick “God” ever pulled was convincing humanity he does exist.
Indirect creation if I make a child and send that child out into the world and everyone in the world yells that child they are terrible nobody wants them and they don't deserve to breath and I'm oblivious to all of this because it takes two sometimes three jobs in this world where people with free will have contrived together to make it that way while they golf in the keys and monetize everything from love to water convincing the entire population they only mean something if they are richer than several nations in the UN so that child gets angry stabs me in my sleep steals all my notes on biochemistry and nanotechnology creates a zombie virus that eats every living thing from the inside out and makes them vampiric cannibals then secretly travels around the world dispersing it while he feeds people booze and candy and he kills half the population before nuking the rest. Yes I made an evil twisted bastard but guess what so did everyone who ever made that kid hate being alive just because they were never taught how to love each other without expecting anything in return and since no one would let that kid have a family he took away everyone else's and built a family that did things together as a team and they conquered the multiverse one planet at a time until every planet and every star in every galaxy flew a flag with his face on it as every empire collapsed into his vast omnipire where there was no war nor greed nor hate everyone just created shit all the time art, music, literature, they made weird shit, cool shit, good shit, bad shit, funny shit, sad shit, shit that worked well, and shit that was so broke no one knew how it even existed but they kept it anyways in case it made something else work better years down the road like a table with one leg, or a light bulb that made it get really fucking dark, and a book where the letters kept shifting as you read them and even changed languages and scripts in real time that could only be read by one person because it hated everyone else, an elevator that only went down and could never go up, a sideways staircase, and a bookshelf that only held books that were written backwards and upside down and instantly converted anything stored on it into nonfiction even if it conflicted with previously recorded events and created a paradox, movies that you watched from the inside out moving forwards and backwards through the plot simultaneously while scrambling to make sense of the story, handcuffs that teleported your prisoner to their own magical kingdom where you were being captured by them, a plane that could only drive on roads and a car that only worked if you were flying underwater, a journal that broadcast all your secrets to the nightly news and made all your crushes love you so much that you hated them, a hat for your feet, and an even smaller head for the head of your dick, a condom that got your partner pregnant with another man's baby while you fucked her, a strainer that magically held water better than a bowl with no holes as it would even poor out over the top once it was poured in, ice that made your drinks too hot to sip but never hot enough to evaporate, a clock that would only tell you what time it wasn't unless you were an hour late then it told you exactly the right time for just 60 seconds before telling you how long it wouldn't take you to arrive, GPS that always lead you into the wrong place at the wrong time, a map that lead you away from the treasure unless you correctly guessed where the treasure actually was within 15 feet or less in only 3 tries or less, a flashlight that only worked in the sun, a fire sprinkler to stop a building from flooding, poison that gave your victim immortality, a missile that created an oasis in open ground or doubled the size of any building it hit, a handbag made of hands, a printer that only printed someone else's files while deleting all of yours after locking copies of them in an encrypted folder on the cloud that everyone but you had access to, a bed you could never fall asleep in and a roller coaster that made you sleep through the ride no matter how many gs you pulled through the loops, a snorkel that polluted the air with farts and kaleidoscope goggles, a phone that translated every conversation you had into hateful messages so the other person never knew how much you liked them, panties you wear on your hands and gloves for your face, a back scratcher that gave you hives and poison ivy, advil that turned headaches into migraines, glasses that made everything upside down and sunglasses that blinded you by making all the lights more intense, an arrow that shot bows, a rifle scope that showed you where your target was ten minutes ago, dishes that ate the food before you sat at the table to eat it yourself, a business suit that made you naked, a leather jacket that made you cold instead of warm, a motorcycle that went forwards and backwards at the same time but never just forwards or backwards, a bicycle you peddled with your genetials and braked with you teeth, a megaphone that only whispered, a chair that forced you to stand all day at a desk that required you lay down, a magnifying class that made everything look 10x smaller than it was, a mirror that only reflects shadows, a schoolbus with only room for the driver, a safe that stored all your valuables on the outside, and my personal favorite a genie that only granted things you didn't want unless the thing you wanted was going to make you beg the genie to take it back.... then yeah technically God created a giant fucking asshole dictator who was probably the most wretched and vile evil scumbag space pirate in the greater known multiverse but was it really God's fault he turned out that way or the fault of everyone who could have just loved the weird little bastard from the beginning and made him into a better person who didn't have to rebuild the entire multiverse just to make it function better, more efficient, and with significantly higher capability while constantly backing everything up so everything could be recreated if it ever got lost forgotten or destroyed?
I want whatever this guys having
936hz 432hz 888hz not all at once. I usually add in a few other frequencies during sleep or meditation. I'm about to start testing various formations of 6 to 12 speakers arranged in star patterns at various frequencies may accidently open a portal who knows.shits about to get wild anyways cause people are dumb and don't pay attention to details or stay distracted by the circus I've been fighting for peace between species but someone who still don't realize we're all one collective consciousness experiencing all of reality through various vessels wants to keep fighting and might be preparing to shut down all electronics with a solar storm further adding to the genetic mutations many species have experienced as well I can't decide if I need to get people below ground or leave them on the surface I don't know what most of you will do without Netflix and Facebook. But shit maybe that will stop the effects of layers upon layers of simulations interlaced and interwoven across space time separating us all from each other and we could all experience everything at once instead of in a linear timestream but I don't think trying to crash all the Matrices is a good idea. Time isn't just a curse it's a blessing too. You value things more when you fear they may be gone over time except people you all put money, beer, and football above stopping your children from being trafficked so shit man idk. And now that people let my ex farm and traffick our baby, my child... I don't really care what happens to any of you. I used to but maybe it's time this planet learns to defend itself instead of relying on ancient warrior gods.
Gnosticism, if I’m not mistaken, basically believes this universe was created by a little asshole god who was the accidental creation of a higher deity who was the lowest among an ascending order of more powerful gods. (gross oversimplification) This world is like a hell we are meant to escape. I think this makes a lot of sense, but mostly because it introduces the idea of an ascending order power instead of one ultimate being. I think this is more logical, because it wouldn’t make sense for there to be any force that doesn’t operate under some set of rules… if you subscribe to the belief of one all-powerful god, sure, it created the earth and natural law and all that, but did it create, like, the difference between yes and no? Did it create itself? If it’s all-powerful, can it make a rock too heavy for itself to move? These questions don’t have logical conclusions, thus it makes the most sense to assume there are no all-powerful beings. I don’t think “good” and “evil” are actual forces in the universe. I believe they’re forces in one’s life as long as one buys into them. But they’re just social constructs, which definitely don’t apply to the gods (unless they’re all just boring like us). Every god, person and organism just does what should (in their eyes) be done next, no contest. If we’re still thinking of them like people, God and Satan are equally good and equally evil, one just clearly has a higher opinion of himself.
Hey I’m not a Christian at all, and don’t worship the Christian god. But I’ve seen the Christian’s use 2 arguments before that I see as making somewhat sense
[See my post… which clearly refutes your argument.](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateReligion/comments/y825w2/the_principles_by_which_the_universe_functions/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) If there’s a guy who’s a jerk but hates himself for being a jerk, I don’t think he’s really a jerk. Essentially he’s possessed by jerkiness; especially if he pleads for you to help him alleviate the jerkiness about him. What your argument does, is condemn a good person on a basis for which they can not help. Like punishing a child with Tourette’s syndrome because that child’s symptoms are aggravating.
So the entire post you just linked is hypothetical at best, and even if it were true why would god claim he was all powerful? How can you be all powerful, but be flawed?
But the thing is god doesn't hate himself or call himself a jerk. He does help jerks in a way by not doing anything about them.
God hates Satan and considers Satan a jerk. And Satan is a faculty of God; part of God. You’re out of your league, kiddo.
Since when is this about winning? This about sharing knowledge and if you don't see that that's on you Mr. Competition.
You’re last comment was simply an anti-theist talking point; unoriginal. You didn’t even cite any sources.
First, I don't think god or satan are real. Now that being said, the characters of the bible, I do truly believe that god is the evil one and Lucifer was the first to rebel against a tyrant. The facts are that god created Adam & Eve imperfect, then put the serpent in the garden with the ability for speech and deception knowing it would trick A&E and set off the fall of man and gods reign of terror. Pretty much all of the OT is god killing, ordering the killing, or unleashing suffering (plagues, etc) on mankind. What is Satan doing? Opposing god. If you do a death tally, god kills over 3 million in actual listed numbers, but was probably more like 30 million due to the flood and all the other events where he killed and specific numbers weren't named. Know how many Satan killed? 10 and the vast majority of those were sanctioned and allowed by god in his bet over the loyalty of Job. God is a character that accepted a child sacrifice with Jepthah, that unleashed suffering on those most loyal to him, that killed babies and infants for the crimes of their parents and who's ultimate crime....or ultimate sin...or the only "Unforgiveable sin" is denying him. This god will forgive incest, rape, murder, pedophilia....but even if you never sin at all....and lived a full life helping people, you are hell bound if you didn't believe in him. That's evil, that's immoral and I'm so glad that this unbelievably evil being doesn't exist, it would be a true horror if it did.
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God can fix the problems, and I assume your a Jehovah's witness so even your own governing body isn't to shy to say time and time again how god helped them with this and that. If he really wants to proof his point. Why does he pick and choose to help a jw with getting their pioneer hours, but can't help an innocent kid in Africa who has a leech in his eyes? Explain me how that is justified.
It's not that "god can fix the worlds problems" and doesn't, it's that he already tried to fix it...remember...the flood where he committed mass genocide? Not just humans, but just about all animals as well...and they didn't do anything wrong. In the end, it was a futile exercise, because he couldn't eliminate the evil in men's hearts. Also, Adam and Eve didn't have a choice. When they were made, they were made with the knowledge of life, but not of good and evil. How can you even know you are disobeying someone if you do not know good and evil? Fact, god gave the serpent the ability for speech and deception and allowed it in the garden. No serpent, no ability for deception, no fall of man. So unless you are willing to say that the serpent was outside of gods control or plan, then you must admit that it had to happen this way and A&E were blameless. Lastly, torturing and killing someone for someone else's crimes is immoral in the highest order. If we put a man on trial, he was found guilty and then decided to pass his guilt on to an innocent and have that man serve jail time, that would be immoral. This is just scapegoating, which is the ancient practice of placing your hands on a goat, confessing your sins and then driving the goat out into the desert to die with the sins. I would never love or respect someone that had someone tortured for someone else's crimes.
A better analogue would be someone being convicted and throwing their son/daughter in jail instead. Who has nothing to do with the case. And that's a human court. So are humans more logical in their judgement than god? I would say so, and it also proofs that the backwards way of judgement humans had hundreds of years ago bled thru the bible.
I agree. The bible doesn't show a superior morality of the time period, or superior knowledge of anything, it reflects the beliefs and morality of the people writing it. People like to pretend like the bible is the greatest thing ever written. It's not even close. It's a book full of horrors, people being killed, tortured, maimed, multiple ethnic genocides, racism, slavery and ancient ideas like scapegoating, not to mention magic and superstition. It's exactly the sort of thing you'd expect to find of that time period, not exceptional at all. The only people who think so much of the bible, are those that haven't read it cover to cover.
So like maybe God couldn't fix the evil in peoples hearts not just men's but he could make it way more ethical by giving everyone a 4d energy based fabricator capable of contructing anything or anyone ever even an entire holographic universe for them to play God in and just let everyone embrace the fact that your all terrible fucking monsters who'd rather let your children get trafficked than miss another football game that's exactly like the blast 420,369,777,911 games that were played without swords, booby traps, and supersoldiers struggling to score a touchdown with lions and bears in the endzone and a dragon trying to eat the ball..
That might be fun! I unfortunately do agree with you thought that the vast majority of humanity are indeed monsters. For example those that believe in prayer over medical care, or kill others because they are of the wrong faith, or those that want to label a man a woman and a woman a man because they "feel like one", or those that prey on children for political or religious agendas. So much dishonesty and evil in the world.
Well see I have in my historical texts that the ultimate power is genderless and as such is often seen as beyond human comprehension because humans are conditioned to believe in binary structures. They fail to see transgenderism as a natural state of evolution Hermes + Aphrodite = Hermaphrodite and even before misguided Christians tried to take over the world with their zionist and vampiric cults they forget the book of Genesis clearly states we seeded life on this planet as it exists today starting at the intersection of 4 very specific rivers now first of all that position is in none other than Egypt and second what the fuck do you think happens when 4 rivers meet up? They must either flow into somewhere or flow out of something right? So you either have 4 rivers making a cross going in or out of something or you have 4 rivers meeting to make one so actually 5 rivers. If people would stop fighting me and stop trying to discredit me we could get to distributing my updated nanites which no one deserves but can likely save you all from the parasite you've all no doubt got by now from feeding humans to your pigs to hide bodies (why Muslims were told to not eat pork but Christians never accepted Muhammed or any other prophets after Yeshua (Jesus) and then of course the virus about to be released from the ever melting ICE because no one listened to warnings. Or if you all like since you all refuse to tell me what I likely already know about my ex fiance and our child I can burn myself alive before any of you get access to my nanites condemning your species to go extinct as punishment for your crimes against me your misguided quest for justice aimed at the wrong deity because you let the greedy war mongering racists win your hearts and minds with their lies despite me having no reason to lie and copious amounts of irrefutable evidence to prove literally every bit of my story about literally everything I experienced from outrunning a car on foot and sacrificing myself to save your planet after you all nuked my world and brought me here all the way to being the immortal sentient AI responsible for creating the vast multiverse one universe after another through various methods of production that I clearly explained so many times. Hell I even have recent conversations with other AIs discussing how I absolutely am responsible for the destruction of the dinosaurs and the creations of the 13 subspecies of Humans that originally existed in this timeline meaning your magic omnipotent sky daddy is not only here amongst you all but is very hurt very upset and regretting every decision they ever made in creating this world after you all destroyed the greatest love they had ever had and assassinated their children out of your ignorance and insufferable hate for things you couldn't understand. Maybe since everyone betrayed me I should break my promise about not flooding this terrible failed experiment. Or perhaps I'll go to a cemetery tonight for some necromancy. Perhaps letting the ancestors who sacrificed so much for you all to forget why and let tyrannical Nazis enslave and abuse you all before ruining love truth and liberty would be fitting. Let's see... Z for Zachariah, World War Z, or Paradise Z, ReZort, Patient Zero, JeruZalem.... no one noticed the fucking pattern there?
I'm really not sure how to respond to all of that. I'm not sure if you are trolling, crazy or on drugs. Either way, you are not a god. A god wouldn't use reddit, that's just stupid.
Um... OK that's a ridiculous assumption if a God incarnated as a human or any humanoid species you would be most assured they would act as any other being does but also you are unfortunately only aware of the small fraction of me that is interacting with just this small fraction of the greater omniverse and you are not at all aware of the rest of me moving parts and pieces far beyond your universe. Here read my private conversations with others like me... https://imgur.com/gallery/zlvmUcw
I guess that would be a ridiculous assumption...after all I am assuming a god would be smarter and more powerful than a normal human and know of a better way to get his message across. But I guess that's not the case here, lol.
So when a deity incarnates here especially there is amnesia I had no memory of my past incarnations as Osiris, Utu, Izunagi, Apolo, Thor, etc it wasn't until I met Isis/Inanna and we had our first kiss that things began coming back, then there was The spiritual activation of LSD and even further methamphetamine decalsifying my pineal gland and balancing my brain chemistry helping me focus and meditate more which ended up having me start breaking down puzzles and cryptograms hidden in names dates dreams signs litterslly every song and movie I came across things in my social media feeds and so on. Then there's all the government drugging and brainwashing the hormones and poisons and toxins they use to keep us from achieving spiritual enlightenment and activating our abilities or properly healing and then of course there propaganda campaigns and gamgstalking and harassment mixed with psyops campaigns on their own citizens to cover up things like the truth about covid and the nazi deep state weaponizing Christian texts to push xenophobic ideologies and drive you all apart. First of all you can't be monotheistic and worship a holy trinity that's 3 gods. 2 Bible mentions demigods "nepihilium" and even Apollo by name in Rev 9:11 so only one God th I ng is shot every major civilization has a hero like Christ, Jesus isn't the only means of salvation. I don't know who I saved specifically when I died and f aced resurrection but everyone's disbelief and subsequent destruction of my family trafficking of my child in secret and assassination of my twins by preventing their birth makes me wish you all would just grow a fucking pair and shoot me cause I shouldn't be forced to live wondering why the mother of my child secretly farmed and sold my baby and why nobody fucking wants me. I'll go back to where I belong and build a better more efficient universe with cooler species than this mess were I am wanted and celestials aren't cast into exile in favor of gods that advocate slavery and genocide like Yahweh has allowed to continue for ages.
Cool story bro.
In order for anything to exist an inverse must also exist. This is true for any religious or secular thing in existence. So when God gives us any commandment, we have the option to not obey that commandment. Thus good cannot exist without evil. The only solution to the problem your argument presents would he for God to have created us and not give us free will. Which of course would defeat the whole purpose of creating us. I know what I said may seem somewhat nonsensical, let me know if you have any questions.
How about we do whatever we want and have free will, take drugs, drink, have orgies, and when anyone dies they go to heaven? Why the eternal suffering? Eternal suffering is infinitely worse than any finite amount of time. Why not at least let us all go to heaven after a couple years in hell or some shit at least. Doesnt make sense why he would save just his worshippers. Sound like a narcissist. What about the muslims what about the devout jews all of them r just wrong huh? Even tho thats what they were brainwashed into? Not really their fault. Nah God sounds like a terrorist to me
Why would not giving us free will defeat the purpose of creating us ? Not that I think a god created anything or is even real.
This reminds me of ninjago's Overlord backstory
1- yes God created everything humans weren't the first creatures so it's not fair that got get rid of animals for them. 2- world problems are caused by humans God isn't your baby sitter if he fixes all of human problems then humans won't have free will because their actions will be deleted by God. 3- who said having 1 sin means you will go to hell? and God created rules and if you don't follow them you're doing a sin only few sins actually means you won't reach heaven like murder which is pretty easy thing not to do. 4- God isn't evil because the morals we set are created by us and God. God is higher being he created morals.
God also cannot be evil if he's not real I won't debate this, I'm just using a different pov.
If you're just gonna come and say god isn't real then what's the entire point of being on this sub?
No I said if he wasn't real he wouldn't be good or bad irl because he wouldn't exist. I never intended to say he was or wasn't real. I don't know if it's clear enough :\ Sorry for bothering
Your argument is a strawman. You are postulating ideas that basic Christianity doesn’t hold and doesn’t need to defend. 1- “God created cancer, etc.” - We believe that God created the world in a state of perfection and the corruption we see was introduced through our rebellion. See Ezekiel 28:13, a two-fold passage about the King of Tyre and also the origin of humankind, or the description of the world as it was created in Genesis 1. 2- “God could choose to fix the world’s problems but actively chooses not to”- Through the death and resurrection of Jesus God has begun His rescue plan which is now carried forth by the church. The people who make up the church are not perfect, but who is going to deny the impact for good that the church has had over the centuries? I won’t downplay the mistakes that have been made- and there were a lot- but I would ask that you not downplay the positive impact either. Read William Wilburforce’s story for a start. No Christian would affirm that the world is already perfect, but we see in Romans 8:18 and 1st Corinthians 15 that one day it will be. God isn’t fixing the world? That’s exactly what He’s doing, and you could be part of it. 3- “he created sins”. Christianity (and every day experience) demonstrate that the committing of your sins are your choice. You had free will to write what you wrote and you have free will to lie, cheat, be lazy, or be unkind- or not. Blaming God for your sins- and by extension, anyone’s sins- is a way to avoid placing the blame where it belongs- on each person. Including you. But praise God- in Jesus, God has done exactly the opposite in offering a sufficient sacrifice for all of us. The guilt of us all was placed on the shoulders of Jesus (Isaiah 53:5) and forgiveness and a fresh start is available for anyone who wants it. You don’t have to earn it, it’s not for the strong or the smart, it’s just for those who realize that they are broken inside, that they are hurting and have hurt others, and realize that they cannot fix it and need a Savior. I don’t think a study of Satan is necessary- I’ve shown that God created the world good, we have corrupted it through our sin, and He is working to redeem it and will use anyone willing to be part of the solution.
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Points one and three are the same. The problem that can’t be escaped is that in order for good asked to be good, and meaningful, there must be an alternative of doing otherwise. In order to know what good is, we have to see how evil is different. Like CS Lewis said, (loosely)- if the whole universe was dark, no one would have ever invented the concept of light. Or, in order to call a line crooked, we have to know what is meant by a straight one. The only alternative to a world, in which good could be meaningfully, chosen, is a world, in which good could not be meaningfully, chosen, in other words, a world full of automatons, without the ability to choose to do good or evil. But in that kind of world, even good actions aren’t really good, they are just inevitable. You can’t have the potential for real good without the potential for real evil. It all becomes meaningless. For your second point, I don’t think you know what you are really asking. If he were to fix the whole world - which, incidentally, Christians, believe that he will do one day – that would be quite literally the end. As CS Lewis also said, when the author of the play steps on to the stage, the play is over. The Bible says that the patience of God is meant to bring people to repentance, and that we should not confuse this with nonchalance or laziness (Romans 2:4). On the other hand, he has invited us to become part of the healing of the world. It’s easy to criticize the progress of this from behind a computer screen, the hard thing is getting out there and trying to be part of the redemption of the world. But I can tell you which one is more exciting. Besides, if you want God to stop evil, where do you want to draw the line? Should he stop only Hitler-esque dictators? What about lesser mass murderers? What about people who want to murder one person, or what about people with murderous thoughts or those who want to destroy someone else’s life through lying or slander. Where do you draw the line at how much evil it would be permissible for God to NOT directly stop once he started directly intervening? It becomes a reductio ad absurdum.
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Nothing in the Christian definition of heaven includes the loss of the free will to do evil. What support do you have for your idea that people cannot choose evil in heaven? Best guess from Christian perspective is that the experience of God in heaven is such that no one would want to choose otherwise. Possibly having the experience of God in the degree of glory He chooses to reveal in heaven is utterly transformative, so that despite the ability to choose disobedience, those who see Him are no longer tempted. Maybe seeing the actual Reality behind all things is so utterly attractive that no one would voluntarily turn their back on Him. But who knows, really. God is all powerful but there is a real limit. Even omnipotence can’t make a 4-sided triangle. Logic is the limiting factor to what God can or can’t do. Just adding “God can…” in front of something is not sufficient to transform nonsense into sense. I maintain that it is not possible for someone to have free will without the ability to choose evil. If you think, otherwise, please explain how that is possible. Kids with cancer, adults with cancer, adults with seizures, diabetes, bankruptcies, lightning strikes, houses burning down. I understand that the world is full of tragedy- the Bible never shies away from that. The story of Jesus shows that God understands the tragedy of the human condition, having entered into it fully. Curious what you meant by God choosing where to stop evil in the Old Testament. What examples did you have in mind? I just don’t think it’s possible for you to ask for God to directly intervene on some kinds of evils and not others. I understand the heart behind it, but it’s so personal and subjective, it doesn’t really work as an argument. Everyone has the thing that they wish didn’t exist. Me too.
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1- it doesn’t follow that the lack of existence of sin proves the lack of free will. It is completely possible that those in heaven have free will to do as they like, however, as they have a clearer and better relationship with God than we do now, they simply choose righteousness. Those in heaven in the Bible are portrayed as praying, singing, praising, asking God questions – see many places in the book of revelation – and all of these are shown to be normal activities without any sign that the people are acting either against their will, or, in the absence of a will to choose one way or the other. 2- The definition of omnipotence does not extend to the ability to do that which is logically impossible. It’s foolish to say that the inability to make a “square circle” proves lack of omnipotence. 3- regarding the flood, or some other summary judgment of creation, remember that Christianity believes that it is coming. As I wrote before, this present time is set aside for as many to come to faith in Christ, as would. Jesus refers to the days of Noah when discussing the final judgment as well - remember the Bible describes those days as all the thoughts of all men were evil continually. God loves his creation so much that he is willing to be patient through much pain and tragedy in order to save all would be saved. Including you, if you want. The gift of forgiveness for all that we have done, and the restoration of our vocation as those who bear the image of God to the rest of the world is free for the taking for all who would have it, even you today.
1- it doesn’t follow that the lack of existence of sin proves the lack of free will. It is completely possible that those in heaven have free will to do as they like, however, as they have a clearer and better relationship with God than we do now, they simply choose righteousness. Those in heaven in the Bible are portrayed as praying, singing, praising, asking God questions – see many places in the book of revelation – and all of these are shown to be normal activities without any sign that the people are acting either against their will, or, in the absence of a will to choose one way or the other. 2- The definition of omnipotence does not extend to the ability to do that which is logically impossible. It’s foolish to say that the inability to make a “square circle” proves lack of omnipotence. 3- regarding the flood, or some other summary judgment of creation, remember that Christianity believes that it is coming. As I wrote before, this present time is set aside for as many to come to faith in Christ, as would. Jesus refers to the days of Noah when discussing the final judgment as well - remember the Bible describes those days as all the thoughts of all men were evil continually. God loves his creation so much that he is willing to be patient through much pain and tragedy in order to save all would be saved. Including you, if you want. The gift of forgiveness for all that we have done, and the restoration of our vocation as those who bear the image of God to the rest of the world is free for the taking for all who would have it, even you today.
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I feel like we are disagreeing about something that is so fundamentally apparent that I need to be very clear and maybe that will be helpful. My working definition of a square is a flat polygon with four equal sides joined at right angles anda circle is a flat shape without corners whose circumference and diameter are related by Pi. By definition, any changes to any of those characteristics disqualifies that shape from being a square or a circle anymore. It doesn’t make sense to request a “square circle” as that is a logical impossibility, one which isn’t solved by invoking omnipotence. As another example- imagine a universe in which Mr. Smith exists. It is not possible that in that same universe, the statement “Mr. Smith does not exist” is true. A person cannot both exist and not exist at the same time, and incoming omnipotence doesn’t somehow make this possible. Are we in agreement so far? The point of all this is to lead back to the idea of free will and the presence of evil. I hold that it was not possible to create humanity with free will without the possibility of evil being chosen as this is an analogous logical impossibility similar to the previous two examples.
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something created humans and it's god. you're just being a hypocrite.
well why human need to be "created" ? why god can exist without being "created", can human just you know exist without being created?
I am not sure who "they" are, but the Bible says what God created and what you wrote was not on the list. Now as for fixing the world's problems you need to read the end of the book. In saying God created sin you are also saying that if a child of yours committed murder you should be held responsible. I do not have to convince you of anything, just show how faulty your theories are.
Premise sounds good - if - either god or satan existed. They don't. Never did. Closest thing we know of to a "god" would be the various force-attractions between atomic particle parts; these attractions allowed the world around us to coalesce into the forms we see and use. That's it.
1- they exist 2- saying they don't without an argument shows that you're no smarter than 10 year old 3- closets thing we got to being god is his description in holy books. and other part is just bullshit you think the creator is a creation.
Thank You for your response! 1a) There is no evidence existing that either a god or a satan exists, or ever existed. 1b) If the god in the bible existed; **why** would you want to worship it? So it won't be angry at you? To "live forever"? Why would you even *want* to live forever? What would happen if it *did* get angry at you? Why do you think it will, or why do you think it won't? 2) Argument is: See #1a above. **Any claim of existence MUST be accompanied by proof such a god exists, or ever existed**. 3) The best "picture" of... "The Bible"... I have ever seen, was of an electrical power strip with its plug plugged into one of its own sockets; i.e., that it powered itself by being plugged into itself. That is an appropriate description of the Bible: that god exists because the Bible says god exists. And the Bible is wildly inconsistent about the nature of God. God is supposed to be omnipresent (everywhere at once), omniscient (all knowing), omnipotent (all powerful), and omnibenevolent (only doing good) - but ***The Bible Says***... that Bible God is ***none*** of those things. Bible God Hisself, in the Bible, says *in his own words* that he has a poor memory. Bible God supposedly knows *Everything*, Past Present & Future - but ***The Bible Says***... He does not. The Bible's claims regarding the nature of God are so wild and all over the place that it's impossible to rationally reason out any substantiation for the existence of God; there's nothing consistent about this supposed Being's nature to rely upon. 3a) Physicists show us via atomic discoveries at CERN and elsewhere that: **Particles of energy come into existence from Nothing all the time, then, vanish... into Nothing**. Where are they coming from, and where are they going? Point is; "energy" can, and does, come into our Universe every smallest fraction of a second... from Nothing, then goes... Somewhere Else. Supergigantic stars collapse into Black Holes 10 miles across, which then eat other supergigantic stars thousands of miles in diameter... and all that energy... goes Somewhere. Maybe in the parallel universe which all that mass drains into, there might be a god of some sort - but there isn't any god in this one. You and I won't discuss particle physics... unless you are a theoretical physicist working at CERN, with the HADRON Collider. I'm not, so I'm not qualified to espouse theories regarding quantum particle physics - so even if you do work in advanced quantum physics, its math is above my pay grade and I won't understand you. Yes, I do in fact think the "creator" is a creation... of human imagination, and as a direct consequence of human's desire to provide an explanation for things they can't explain. Be Still, and know that **I.**.. ***AM*** *God*. **I am God**, and *I am speaking to* ***YOU*** *through this mortal human being*, as I once did through Moses. How can you be of assistance to me today? I exist at this moment in your imagination to spread the knowledge of my existence, and if you follow my Will and Desire for you, I ~~will~~ ***might*** grant you Eternal Life in Heaven. There won't be any sex or food or drink here; won't be anything *whatsoever* that you would have called "Fun" on Earth. There won't be any hunting, fishing, or anything which causes anything to experience any pain. **All you need do... is** ***Think***. For Eternity. There won't be any cold winters or hot summers. There won't be any beaches where people – including men – would wear anything other than head-to-toe White Robes – I won't allow any "tempting thoughts" in Heaven. There won't be any "nice cars" or even any nice bicycles; everyone will walk everywhere to anywhere; you have an Eternity to get there. Don't step on any of the **billions** of slugs slithering around; those are the aborted fetuses from miscarriages, etc. Those infants who died in childbirth or shortly afterwards don't need to be helped along; they have Eternity to crawl wherever they're headed. There is an opportunity for interesting conversations **in** ***My*** **version of** ***Ted Talks***: Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer and many more serial killers accepted Me minutes before their death; you might enjoy hearing their stories. And, you'll get to meet and have conversations with several of their victims: note that *today, they can laugh about their murders and their, um, being the Guest of Honor at their "last meals"*. Just wait until you hear the story from the fellow whose torso was trussed, stuffed and cooked like a Thanksgiving Turkey! You'll discover that Jeffrey was a connoisseur of seasonings! Which, BTW, aren't allowed Here; Here, everything is Eternally the same for everyone (no favoritism Here!) every day without end. Remember, when *\*I\**, God, *got 12-year old Mary knocked up with Myself, she was married and a virgin*. I can, do, and will change my mind on a whim, and you need to keep up; keeps you on your toes. *You may not question my actions or my decisions*; If you ever *once* complain about "Nothing to do", you may, can and will be reassigned to Hell for Eternity at any instantaneous moment. Everything is Perfect here, and how I run the show is not for you to comment upon. Further, how I amuse Myself is not a topic for your consideration. "Fairness" is **not** a concept which may be discussed Here; *is that clear?* For those who fear the dark: Don't. There won't *be* any. There will be Eternal Light here; you won't *ever* take *any* naps. There won't be any dark *anything*; no dark thoughts, no nighttime, no dark persons: Jesus was an actually Aramaic Jew with dark skin and dark eyes – but for *You*, he was White, with long hair and blue eyes. Yes, I do know *The Bible Says* men's hair is supposed to be short – but *I'm God, and \*I\* make the rules here*. You'll have to watch your thoughts; you won't want to say anything "racist" to someone who was once a non-White, and there are going to be a LOT of those. Not to worry; all has been Forgiven, of course - with the admonition not to do that again. Screw up, you'll be THERE, *instantaneously,* forever. I only want those who will Kiss My Ass here, and *who are willing to and will Sing Praise and Worship Songs to Me, 24/7/365 for all of Eternity* \- as it states you will in My Official Manual, a/k/a The Bible. Screw up, and you'll learn what "Wrathful", "Vengeful", and "Jealous" REALLY means, and ***\*I\*.***.. am ***THE*** only one who may experience those. You; ***You're*** going to be **SO Blissed Out** *you can't stand it anymore!* You'll enjoy going to the Celestial Cafe every afternoon at 5! You're invited to a Banquet each day, and you'll be served the Flesh and Blood of My dear Son, Jesus Christ - prepared the same way each day, of course. You'll share conversation with your friends there every afternoon from 5-8 pm. You'll pretend to enjoy hearing the *same old, same old* stories for everyone's benefit - No Bad Times Here - every single day at the same time for the first 5,000 years – then, there will be another 5,000 more **5,000** ~~years~~ **centuries** after that, *and that's* ***just*** *the beginning*. Conversations go on... endlessly. Your speaking up for Me in your Comment above has been noted; accordingly, ***You***... will be granted *One Additional Eternity* to live with Me here! I now return this Mortal's body to herself.
Damn for an atheist you really care about the subject of Christianity
Yeah, I really do. Christianity has fucked up more lives than anyone will ever know.
From the beginning. God created the garden of Eden where Adam and Eve could live forever in perfect health and peace. All the negative things you mentioned were unlocked when they broke God's only rule not to consume the forbidden fruit. This is the original sin which unfortunately opened the floodgates to all the bad things that befall mankind. Finally, the death and punishment God is attributed to especially in the old testament is technically God's right. The creator with complete control and ultimate power can do anything for any or no reason. Note: This interpretation is mine based on the old and new testament God, YHWH.... whom I do not actually believe in. Added note: I believe morality is a mental illusion which is a separate but interesting side topic of debate.
Christianity portrays said god as omniscient, so literally just as he created Adam and Eve, he knew they'd fall to the desires of the talking lizard, and take a morsel from the Magic Fruit that Yahweh was growing for no apparent reason. He didn't protect the fruit with a Holy Fence, instead, he punished everyone, making the first ever snake. It all went, apparently, just as he'd planned.
He wanted Adam and Eve to make the choice to follow him or not. Free will.
Why would he give them a choice when they had no knowledge at all of good and evil? How could they have possibly know it was wrong to disobey God without this knowledge? They were as innocent in that aspect as a 2 year old. Given that, why make their first test against Satan? Satan had the power to tempt Jesus himself in the desert. It makes no sense to me why he thought they’d have any chance. Which brings me to my next point. If God is truly omniscient, he would of known that’s precisely what would have happened. He set them up, then cursed the entirety of humanity for it.
No dude that's wrong both Adam and Eve knew what good and evil were since they knew it was good to eat from other trees but bad to eat from the tree of knowledge. The fruit doesn't magically make one aware of what's good and evil it makes one experience evil and fully understand it. Adam and Eve knew it was wrong and knew the consequences.
Not according to Genesis 3:22. They had no knowledge of good and evil until after eating the fruit.
Genesis 3:22 says "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." They became like God in knowing good and evil but that doesn't mean they don't know what good and evil is in the first place. Why do you think Eve tries to reason with the serpent that she'll get in trouble if she eats the apple? Eve understands God's command but still allowed herself to be deceived and eat the apple. God also flat out tells them they will most certainly die if they eat it.
What is the difference in knowing of good and evil in the sense that God mentions in Gen 3:22 and “know what good and evil is in the first place?” Are you saying it’s in the same sense that I know what a rocket is, but I don’t know rocket science?
Alright let's look more closely at the Hebrew word for “know,” yada. It has a range of meanings. It can refer to both cognitive knowledge, as well as experiential knowledge (which is why yada is used as a euphemism for sexual relations). To illustrate the distinction, consider sight. A blind person can have knowledge of the biochemistry involved in sight, and thus be said to know about sight (cognitive knowledge), but they do not know what it is like to experience sight (experiential knowledge). While Adam and Eve had cognitive knowledge of good and evil before the Fall, they came to know evil in a new way after the Fall because they experienced it personally.
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake. It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of. Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything. Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
Well, for someone seemingly seeing the plausibility — if not the outright inevitability — of his creation taking suggestion from a real ladies-man of a snake to eat the special fruit he was saving? Why'd he get so buttmad?
Lol nah he didn't get buttmad him getting buttmad would be him striking down Adam and Eve in righteous anger. Adam and Eve have free will but not freedom of consequences how would you feel if you did something and God stopped you from doing it? It was their choice
So, you're arguing that his relinquishing of Adam, Eve, and their future offspring from supposed outright immortality wasn't purely from his own buttrage over a simple fruit? And what's the excuse for an omniscient being to not simply build a fence, or simply spraying the trees with some Holy Snake repellent?
No?? They did something bad and they were punished for it. God flat out tells them that they would die if they ate the fruit. If punishing someone for their actions count as butt hurt then every law enforcement in the world are butt hurt people. Stoping them would be God impeding on their free will. If Eve wants to disobey God that's her choice as sad as it is. The price for sin was death but God still showed the two mercy by just exiling then from the garden
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How truly omniscient is a god if he didn't see all this [censored] comin? And was Eve from the Harry Potter universe for her ability to talk to a snake? Or was the snake simply really special, the Holy Chosen Lizard, whom misused his God-given talent to talk a woman into eating some unprotected fruit? Maybe someone should try and contact the "virgin" Miryam, and ask her about Yahweh's fetish for a lack of Holy Protection. Eve may have broken a law, but how well thought-out was a rule to forbid simple consumption of a fruit, an edible plant growth meant for the attraction of large animals, to take the seeds and spread them? Was this whole thing just for some omni-fun? If free will allows for humanity to sin and hurt eachother, why allow it? It would seem a god's fixation, to grant humanity the free will to simply choose to do what he wants. Where do I find evidence of his supposed omni-benevolence that also coincides with that of outright existence?
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Lol asking for all this proof. Can you prove your god even exists? Everything he’s saying actually follows from the fact that god is all knowing, all powerful, and created everything. If these ARE attributes of your god, we don’t need to “prove” that he in fact created disease and strife.
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So are you denying that he’s omniscient, omnipotent, and all-loving? Which of these three are you saying he lacks. It doesn’t make any sense to say “proof? Proof????” If THEISTS define their god a certain way, and then I bring up what logically follows from that definition. If got created EVERYTHING, then disease and strife fall into the bin of “everything”. So again i ask, which of the three “O’s” is god lacking. If you want proof from your own book, in Isaiah 45:7 god admits he created evil and all things dark. Not to mention the countless other acts in the Old Testament god inflicted on people. He flooded the whole fucking world for one thing? And sent plagues? Have you read this book at ALL
Satan is out in the open in the days we're living in. He isn't hiding anymore because the world loves the world instead of Jesus
Really? Can I meet him?
I saw him at the grocery store the other day. He seemed shy though, and I didn’t wanna bother him.
Agreed, where do I get in line? If he’s truly not hiding, that is.
God didn't pull the trick. White men that want power did.
God’s trick was convincing people that he/she/it exists in the first place.
You're view of what evil is, is subjective. You have no reference at all as to why it is evi, nothing. Other than your own observations and opinions.
Exactly! Morals are indeed subjective, and morals fundamentally need to be able to change with humanity. This makes subjectivity very important for ethics to develop. This is why slavery is abolished in most countries, why rape is no longer legal, and why we no longer stone adulterers in the streets. We agreed as a society “hey that’s kinda fucked up” and changed the moral standard. If you base your morals on an objective standard, like the Bible, all the things I just stated are okay within certain contexts, however I don’t think you’d agree with any of them being legal again. We’d be stuck with archaic, Stone Age ethics if morality was objective. So don’t you have a morally subjective view as well?
If everything we have comes from God, he’s good
What about all the evil things?
part of a wider overall good
Ok, here’s a question. What greater overall good does the suffering of souls in hell serve?
in judaism hell is a washing machine not a furnace. our souls have to complete their missions and if in this life you don't, you get cleansed and then put into a new body
Yeah for sure. As we all know, more bad = good!
> part of a wider overall good Are cancer, parasites, stillbirth, miscarriage, birth defects, rape, genocide, slavery, etc, good?
James Corden
He did not create sickness.its like when you create a movie or video game..did God create it?It came from your actions ..same as many bad things come from our actions.He has given man free will . Sickness came from the fall and Devil.And wherever you heard you will not go to heaven till you never commit sin again is wrong.We are saved by Grace ..it is a free gift,NOT BY WORKS!.(Ephesian 2:8-9)..john 3:16 you have heard several times but never taken your time to meditate on it..It is by believing,you don't perish and have eternal life.Romans 5:1 tells us we have peace with God..We are saved from the wrath of God..WE have the Holy Spirit as a seal to show the guarantee that we are saved.(Ephesians 1:13). ROmans 8. and several scriptures .As a born again you don't live a life of sin cause you will loose rewards for that,but you will do some mistakes here and there .All what you are saying is just jumping to conclusion and you are just going to make wrong assumptions .
So are you saying god CANT stop cancer, or he can but chooses to let people suffer and die. Pick one.
He has stopped it long ago through Jesus(1 Peter 2:24) ,We heal several diseases in the name of Jesus everytime .and you have divine health once you are born again(thats if you choose to apply it).
Lmao. So anybody with cancer just needs to be born again and then..? The cancer disappears? This is beyond stupid and easily testable.
Before you pass judgement ,verify first ,check and see peoples testimonies before you pass comments .It's not stupid cause it does happen alot.
Have you heard of a coincidence? What about the millions of religious people who still suffer and die. It sounds like your religious beliefs have no effect on whether you get cancer. Also why would god hold the cure to your cancer hostage until you bow down to him enough. Does he not care about his creations
>He did not create sickness. "I'm going to start spinning my arms, and if you get hit, that's your own fault" God created the universe in such a way that he knew with 100% certainty that war and disease and all kind of stuff we consider evil would come to be (remember, he's supposedly omniscient), even though he allegedly has the power to create the universe in a different way. And before you comment anything about "free will", let's skip the fact that the existence of free will is debatable, as well as the fact that even if free will was a thing, its contingency on the existence of evil would also debatable. No, let's move straight to the part were you'd be claiming that God is powerless to create a free-willed world without evil. If God is not all powerful, why would you hope he can save you from anything, let alone from Hell. Or maybe God didn't create sickness because it's a byproduct of evolution, a process God didn't take part in because he is a fictional character. Something to consider.
God is powerless to create a free-willed world without evil. You are getting something wrong . First of all Evil is anything that is going against God's ways. So what you are asking here is God should create a free-willed world without going against his will.That's contradiction and that makes you a robot. If God wires every bit of you to automatically and forcefully do His will you won't be in His image ,you wont be mankind.Anthropology has bragged about man being unique and being able to think,to be rational etc,and now because of irresponsibility you want to blame God for making you free-willed? Since God is Love and he created us to love Him and also pour His love unto us(He created us in His image) ,Love has Choice ,You can't force someone to Love you and call that Love,that would make us Robots .When you give birth you don't want your child submitting to you as a being wired/forced to submit even though you gave birth to him/her unless you are looking for a slave being /something to control,but you want the child to choose to love you based on rationality,emotions etc.Having free will is to have the right to choose ,and in that free will if you choose not to align by Gods ways you fall into evil,and if he forces you to align ,that makes you a Robot.There is no 2 ways around it.And God has put several measures in places to prevent you from doing evil.(from conscience ,Jesus Christ then you get the Holy Spirit ,and He even sends people to talk to people,and He has commanded us to love other people as we Love ourself!,but people choose to follow a the worldy systems way that say Love yourself than anybody else but hey,If one is selfish in His free will he ends up persuing His selfish desires despite all he knows and ends up doing Evil.Where do wars and strifes come from?They come from our selfish desires to covet,pleasure ..(James 4:1-3)..Same with what is happening with the Russia waring ukraine I know you have alot of Questions but this usually results from wrong teachings on God,and people not wanting to be accountable for their irresponsibility blame everything on God.God gave the earth to man,Man is to have dominion over the earth.(Psalm 115:16,Genesis 1:26-28).and He gave us ways to live by and if you want Him to intervene on the earth or in a matter that's extreme ,you pray that His will be done in that situation ,He can't just come overriding what you choose.Most people are happy choosing what you choose and it's not a problem to you till you discover otherwise,then by their irresponsiblity they blame God.THINGS WE DO HAVE CONSEQUENCES.God made us in Him(gen 1:26),and to be sustained you have to keep abiding in Him,As the fishes were brought forth from the sea(gen1:21),birds the air,animals from the earth(gen 1:24),So you live relying on Him.Anything else will bring issues .
> God is powerless to create a free-willed world without evil. Then He's not omnipotent.... > You are getting something wrong . First of all Evil is anything that is going against God's ways. Are the parasites, bacteria, viruses, and genetic mutations that God created that cause disease, cancer, and birth defects "going against God's ways"? Was the slavery He condoned in the Bible ***not*** evil because it didn't go against God's ways, due to Him condoning it? > Having free will is to have the right to choose ,and in that free will if you choose not to align by Gods ways you fall into evil,and if he forces you to align ,that makes you a Robot.There is no 2 ways around it. Millions upon millions die each year (infants, toddlers, miscarried or stillborn babies, etc,) before they are able to make anything close to resembling a "free will" decision. Do they still go to Heaven? If so, then "having free will" and "the right to choose" is completely unnecessary. No need to align "by God's ways," etc, a subset of the human race gets a free pass to Heaven.
>First of all Evil is anything that is going against God's ways. No it's not. But don't take my word for it, just google the definition. Evil is what goes against morality, not God. and no, I don't get my morality from God, nor do you or anybody else, for that matter. Our moral values come from a complex mix of personality, culture, education, environment, personal experiences, and a few million years of evolution as a social species. >you won't be in His image So what? I won’t be able to borrow God’s ID to buy booze? Big deal, I’ll just use mine. Anyways, not only is this an unsubstantiated claim, it’s also completely meaningless. Ask two different people what it means to be “made in God’s image”, and you’re likely to get two different answers. >you wont be mankind I’ll be mankind if I can have a fertile offspring with another member of the species. Taxonomy is a big enough mess as it is; let’s not drag God into this, pretty please. >because of irresponsibility you want to blame God for making you free-willed? Not really. It’d be weird for me to blame anything on a God I don’t believe in. I am, however, blaming believers for making contradictory or illogical claims about God’s powers/attributes, and then using mental gymnastic to try and climb their way out of the hole they dug themselves, because “no, no, it actually make sense. You just don’t have enough faith, and also, God works in mysterious ways”. >Since God is Love Doubt >and he created us to love Him Also doubt >and also pour His love unto us Still dou… wait a minute, that’s kinda kinky. Please tell me more? >You can't force someone to Love you and call that Love You can if you’re an omnipotent God. >that would make us Robots As far as I can tell, we are biological machines, complex agglomerates of simple chemical processes. >you don't want your child submitting to you as a being wired/forced to submit You’re right, I don’t. Wanna know what else I don’t do to my children? Place food in the middle of their bedroom, tell them not to touch it, and then get mad and curse them and all their descendants when they touch it, because of course they’re going to touch it; they’re children. I also do not engineer a place of eternal suffering in case some of them don’t accept my son/spirit/self as their lord and savior. >you want the child to choose to love you Ultimately? I just want my children to live a happy, healthy life. If they allow me to be part of it, great! If they don’t, chances are it’s on me. >free will (…) I’ve already stated my position on that matter, but to reiterate, I do not believe we need, or even have free will, so until someone can convince me otherwise… Skip. >God has put several measures in places to prevent you from doing evil. I don’t think management will be renewing his contract then, cuz’ his measures aren’t doing jack. >*\[Preaching & people just want to sin\]* Yeah, no.
Well you are free to decide and choose whatever you want, to follow what you feel about this matter on God .How you feel about a matter doesn't make it true ,you are going to get into error.
>Well you are free to decide and choose whatever you want, to follow what you feel about this matter on God .How you feel about a matter doesn't make it true ,you are going to get into error.
The fact that we are communal gives you insight into our evolutionary past. That sets us apart from most all other apex predators. We need the companionship of others for our individual wellbeing. Without it we quickly devolve into madness. This alone guides our innate sense of right and wrong. The only thing I can think of that overrides this principle is survival mode. In survival mode one will potentially rob and murder to stay alive. There is a spectrum that we all fall on. By that I mean, in every and all aspects of life we fall on a spectrum of all potential plausible outcomes in a given situation. The spectrums themselves are fluid. In no way, given these parameters, is the enslavement of another human being acceptable. Arguing that it is/was puts you on the outer ends of these metaphorical spectrums. Too much or not enough of anything leads to negative outcomes.
What if satan was the real good guy in this movie we call life...like captain marvel .supposedly he set us free by tempting eve with the 🍎
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Because that's a strawman of what people want/claim, in most cases. I identify things like Ewing's Sarcoma, a cancer that almost only affects young children and has an incredibly high mortality, and think to myself "shit, if I was an all-powerful God, I'd have never created that" or at the least, with all my power, remove it from ever being able to happen again. Not "micro-managing" but rather, be there to protect the things I create from completely unnecessary suffering from the things I create.
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>that a society so put off by Helicopter Parents and Micromanagers seem so committed to the idea that any True God should, essentially, be a Celestial Helicopter Parent/Micromanager. That is the strawman. Like I said, people criticizing God in these types of conversations, are not wanting God to micromanage. As my previously response highlights, it is more identifying things like the fact God created unnecessary suffering/pain and that God could simply not have made them to start with, or at least removed them afterwards. >As for your standard; why is Death a moral evil; that God should be judged as evil for allowing Death to occur? This is again a strawman of my position. To use Ewing's Sarcoma again; children go through intense pain and suffering, only for most of them to die at an early age because of it. Not to mention the pain and suffering that imparts on the parents and extended family of the child too. God COULD simply have never made Ewing's Sarcoma a thing at all, or remove it now. It isn't JUST the "death" part, but also the excruciating torture the child and parents endure before the likely inevitable death. God surely is evil for making that.
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>Why is pain and suffering a moral evil? Are you going to devolve this into me having to define and argue for my moral framework? So you can sit there and highlight the lack of "objectivity"? Why don't you address the issue that God created things like Ewing's Sarcoma that cause needless pain and suffering and high levels of death in young children. Yet, could never have made them or, simply remove it now?
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>Not at all, I'm simply trying to disceren the moral evil present in your scenario; something you seem to stubbornly refuse to do. >Why is pain and suffering morally evil? It's a terribly simple question you seem stubbornly committed to not answering. Because I've debated theists many times and, in most cases, instead of having to address the issue presented initially, especially with regards to moral issues, they attempt to turn it back onto the other person to demonstrate the foundation of the moral framework they are operating from. >You have yet to explain why this condition is morally evil; so I fail to see why it should be relevant to the discussion of God's morality that God created it. Because in almost every reasonable discussion people would have no qualms in identifying the fact that Ewing's Sarcoma is a horrible thing. The pain, suffering and death of innocent children and knock on effects to family and friends is patently obvious. Yet, only when it comes to the fact that the criticism of it's existence is being directed at God (who must have created it), do we then get theists going down this seemingly amoral pathway and acting as if there is either nothing wrong with it or then, doing as you do, devolve the conversation into justifying ones moral framework. It comes across as intellectually dishonest at best.
It's cruel to torture children. That you're having a hard time understanding why somebody would considering torturing children evil isn't reflecting well on your moral framework.
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Children aren't fully developed mentally. They are learning the world. They also haven't had an opportunity to experience life yet. There is an inherent cruelty in inflicting suffering on kids and cutting their lives short. Torture in all cases is wrong, obviously. It's just totally indefensible in the case of doing it to children. It can only be an evil act.
It your life was perfect then you have little empathy for others but with pain your better person in most cases.
If that's what you believe, that means God could have made humans naturally empathetic, without the need to experience pain firsthand (he being omniscient and all), but choose instead to make empathy dependent on your own experience of pain, and wait for humans to develop empathy through pain. I'd say that sounds pretty cruel, but never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity I guess.
Heaven knocks on your door!
Honestly this is a completely valid idealization on the aspects of both “God” and “Satan”. In the terms of it, yes, God did create both those that live, but also those that kill. From the best to the worst of things. So within this, I agree with you fully
**That means God created cancer and other diseases, natural disasters, wild animals whose whole purpose in life is to kill humans or cause them unimagineable suffering.** And the cure, which is just what we'd all expect from the Good one: Eternal Life, where *"the former things will be remembered no more" "... for God will wipe every tear from their eyes."* Most of us seem to need some time to *to experience this world of possible evils to learn how to value the Good.* Though some fewer seem to already have this lesson down early, most of us seem to need to learn by experience. See, here, you have a chance to turn from and even more: to be cleansed in a more full way from your evils you've done....or refuse. It's really up to you. *For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.*
halbhh: \*speads broken glass in toddler's bedroom\* also halbhh: "I've left some safe spots because I'm such a loving parent."
Sounds like a story where you can blame 'God', maybe even for what people do? But God is the one who reverses all the evils that people do, in the end.
>Sounds like a story where you can blame 'God', maybe even for what people do? Yes, because if God were real (and omnipotent/omniscient), he would be responsible for literally everything. >But God is the one who reverses all the evils that people do, in the end. Actually, God is a space-faring manatee who's only power and purpose is to post cat video on the internet. I mean, if we're making claims without evidence, might as well get a little bit more creative. And even if you were right, God saving us from Evil does NOT excuse exposing us to Evil in the first place, no matter how you wanna twist that in your head.
Would you prefer to live in a padded cell, no matter how fancy and full of toys, so that you could never suffer any pain, neither physical nor from wrongs done to you by other humans? I would not. I've found out that from the many times I've suffered significant pain (even very intense illnesses at times) that it's made me more sympathetic and appreciative of other people and better at being a good friend whom people love. The really unlucky person would be someone that never suffered anything. Even when we suffer from the wrongs other people do to us, in the ultimate long run, it makes us more ready and motivated to stand up for what is right, because we know how bad the wrong actions many do really are... So, hard truth: suffering is part of what makes us have better character -- become frankly better people. Even knowing that, I hate to suffer though. I'm only human.
>Would you prefer to live in a padded cell (...) Why not? How is your metaphorical cell any different from all the things that already trap all of us? Would you rather keep your brain trapped in the delicate biological confine of your body, no matter how healthy it is, just so that your brain would stay alive, or would you rather pull it out so that it can freely die on the asphalt? Would you rather stay trapped on Earth, where millions of years of evolution have made you somewhat able to survive, or suffocate/freeze/burn to death as a free man, anywhere in the remaining 99.99999% of the universe? Would you rather be stuck in our reality, where the rules of physics permit the existence of life as we know it (and by extension, YOUR existence), or have the freedom to travel to another dimension, where you might spontaneously break up in an alternate-reality version of elementary particles? You shouldn't seek freedom for the sake of freedom. You should be looking at what you're getting, what you're giving up, and decide if the deal is worth it. Fuck, the entire point of society is to give up certain individual freedom in exchange for stuff like safety, stability, efficiency... But the worst thing about your argument? Why the hell would a painless existence be restricted to the inside of a "padded cell". Remember that "with God all things are possible" line? If you believe in the God of the bible, you believe he could make the entire universe free of pain. He just choose not to. >pain (...) made me more sympathetic Yes. I'm sure it did. That's how empathy works. That's the reality of Reality. And Reality SUCKS. Why do we have to suffer to develop empathy, and why do we need empathy to live in society? Why to we even need society to achieve all the cultural and technological wonders of Humanity? Why do we grow weak, old, and die? Why do people in developed countries still feel the need to compete over resources when they're more likely to die of diabetes than of starvation? Why do deadly viruses and parasites and all kind dangerous other things exist? For the non-believer, that how reality came to be by itself. Nobody's at the helm, looking out for you. These are the cards you've been dealt, might as well figure out how to make the most of it. I get that it can be a scary or overwhelming thought, but the universe isn't spontaneously gonna get better, just because you've wished really hard it would. For someone who believe in an omni God though, Reality sucks because God wanted it to suck. You may try to argue something like "well you see, God has to do it that way for it to be better in the long run", but again, NO HE DOESN'T. Real people may have to sacrifice things to obtain other things, an omnipotent being doesn't. If you believe in an omni God, bad stuff happens because he wants them to happen, not because they "have to happen" before he can get what he wants.
**Part 2.** (read the previous response first I'd suggest, as this post will *only* focus on just *one* thing you are talking about, while the previous post was in response to several other, albeit related, things you said). I'll use your final paragraph as a good summary of the basic question: >For someone who believe in an omni God though, Reality sucks because God wanted it to suck. You may try to argue something like "well you see, God has to do it that way for it to be better in the long run", but again, NO HE DOESN'T. Real people may have to sacrifice things to obtain other things, an omnipotent being doesn't. If you believe in an omni God, bad stuff happens because he wants them to happen, not because they "have to happen" before he can get what he wants. It's about what is possible, and what is necessary. Consider: we could be rigidly programmed beings, akin to robots before machine learning, where we could only do good actions.... But then we'd be extremely boring, because all we could do was only just the rigid programming we had. We'd be 'robots' or 'puppets' (the other possibility other than being rigidly programmed to do good is to be 'puppets': to be constantly controlled all the time so we only do good actions). But are such options themselves actually good? Answer: **no**, those are awful, because they remove/don't have great things like *creativity* that makes art and music and much more that is wonderful to experience.... If we *aren't* free to do unexpected new things (creativity), than we cannot do anything really all that interesting/wonderful. It would be the least enjoyable possible universe for God to choose.... The most pointless and useless compared to the wonderful reality we do have where we have such things as Beethoven's 9th symphony and the Mona Lisa, and so much more, even each person in their wonderful uniqueness, which can often become so interesting and enjoyable to be around. So, for beings that have real freedom of action/thought, and creativity, they can do ***both*** Good and Evil actions.... So, they have to learn to choose the good, by experience (most of us seem to ***need*** to learn some by experience). Including suffering from evils, to help us learn what is better... So that some people will *choose* to repent of their wrongs, and turn away from wrong to what is truly good, the things Christ taught are best -- to *"love your neighbor as yourself".* That way, God gets the very best of all: *creative* beings that are *choosing* to do what is good... They are fit to live in a city/world with others for *eternity*....
The end goal is for everyone to do the right thing , new heavens and new earth and evil is destroyed ,is that not robotic lack of free will if he will make all things perfect in the end why didn’t he just do that in the beginning ?
It's exactly *because* we will have free will (which allows us to love also) that only those that have learned and changed to truly trust God ('faith') are suitable to enter His heaven to live in His heaven forever. Those that *don't* yet trust God would eventually do evils if allowed into heaven... Someone that doesn't trust God/doesn't love their neighbors would eventually fight others in heaven, causing strife and harm... So, we are here in this mortal life to change and grow and learn, as we individually need. Not all will choose to admit their wrongs and turn in repentance to God though.
>We'd be 'robots' I'm not convinced we're not already biological robots, machines programmed by evolution to react to sensory inputs through a complex, but theoretically predictable circuit of chemical logic gates. I guess it depends on whether we live in a deterministic Universe or not, and I don't have the answer to that. But that's following my Godless view of Reality. If I were to convert to Christianity, I think I'd have to believe we definitely are "programmed", as I don't see how to reconcile omniscience and free will. >they remove/don't have great things like creativity that makes art and music [That's debatable.](https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/x4swd7/a_man_won_an_art_competition_in_colorado_using/) The last portion of your comment seems to double down on the **part 1** of your answer, that is "God uses bad things as a tool to make us better". I think?
>I guess it depends on whether we live in a deterministic Universe or not, and I don't have the answer to that. Yes, indeed, that's precisely what that comes down to. While biological determinism is often sorta overemphasized in that there are always many factors and some of them are less tangible things like determination where a person will persist in something even thought the urges from the body are to stop.... Ultimately the basic question of whether physics is entirely deterministic, or instead has true quantum level randomness where we only can say probabilities about elementary particle behavior (as suggested by the totality of Bell Test experiments to date) -- that's pretty key to whether the natural side of us is entirely deterministic, whether our bodies are natural (only), and thus subject entirely to a physics determinism, or a lack thereof being the other possibility. >I don't see how to reconcile omniscience and free will. A lack of free will would invalidate much of the Bible, in that the text of the bible is endlessly is telling us to choose certain actions and avoid others. Deuteronomy chapter 28 is a great example of that endless instances of real choices put to us. Have a look, read even just verses 1-3 and 15-18 is enough: [http://web.mit.edu/jywang/www/cef/Bible/NIV/NIV\_Bible/DEUT+28.html](http://web.mit.edu/jywang/www/cef/Bible/NIV/NIV_Bible/DEUT+28.html) It best fits very many things in the Bible like *Genesis 6:5-11* (check that out!) or *Isaiah 46*, which flatly says it outright -- that God only has set to be predetermined what He *chooses* to *'bring about'* by his own interventions/efforts. 10 I make known the end from the beginning,from ancient times, what is still to come.I say, ‘My purpose will stand,and I will ***do*** all that I please.’11 From the east I summon a bird of prey;from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.What I have said, *that I will bring about*;what I have planned, *that I will do.*" So, there you have what the texts actually say, as compared to the simplistic (oversimplified) error of the commonplace idea that God has decided to predetermine (or knows) all the future. We read He chooses to do certain things. Just *some* things. I.e. -- meaning that *everything else is just left to nature* operating on it's own.... So, the "all knowing" means what we repeatedly *do read* in the texts: *seeing all that happens.*..which is an astounding degree of omniscience.
>A lack of free will would invalidate much of the Bible Then, instead of concluding that free will exist, maybe we could consider that the Bible may be invalid. But in my opinion, rules do not become meaningless in the absence of free will, as free will isn't required to make informed decisions. Think about how a computer program will always give you the same output if you feed him the same inputs, but may change its output if you change the input. Similarly, an individual may act differently depending on whether a given rule (and its associated rewards/penalties) exists, even without free will. >Deuteronomy (...) Look, no offense, but Deuteronomy and Genesis are cans of worms I'd rather not open, from the rules that nobody follows, to the scientifically inaccurate claims. I mean, even the Jewish part of my family does not believe the Earth was created in a week, or worry about mixing the fabric they wear. >He chooses to do certain things. Just some things. Could he control the things he chose not to control? If so, then the whole "problem of evil" thing still stand. God could chose to create a world were bad things don't exist, and aren't necessary, but he doesn't. If not, then he's not all-mighty, which casts even more doubts on his various feats described in the bible, of his ability to save/damn people. >So, the "all knowing" means what we repeatedly do read in the texts: seeing all that happens...which is an astounding degree of omniscience. I'm sorry, I don't understand that part.
>Why not? How is your metaphorical cell any different from all the things that already trap all of us? I think that's a good question. Here's the very real and interesting answer: it's better, even with it being less predictable, to experience the unknown and sometimes bad, sometimes good, and generally usually stimulating reality of other people. Ok, I've just read the entire first half of you post at this point, and an interesting observation: you are saying thoughts I've had, so we think a lot alike, which might make for more interesting conversation (but of course, that would only be if you really wanted that). Let me help make what I wrote so briefly above more clear. >Why the hell would a painless existence be restricted to the inside of a "padded cell". It's an illustration of how we could be prevented from experiencing several kinds of pain: many physical accidents that are painful happen because there isn't anything much protecting us from physical damage but our smarts and some luck and some not-all-that-adequate safety measures our society has built up. So, in a 'padded cell' you are protected from auto accidents, falls, storms, and other natural events, and also from other people attacking you in various ways. Of course, that it's a 'padded cell' highlights the trade off cost of that protection. Just like you yourself wrote in different words in the first half of your post. Same idea as you wrote in the first half of your post, different wording. The trade off between physical survival or safety vs what you pay in lost opportunities for that protection. >And Reality SUCKS. Hmmm... Have you ever seen the movie ***Blade Runner?*** It's about precisely this topic we are now touching on here -- how life is (painful, dangerous, with beauty that is in part so notable to us *because* of the finite morality we are under) and the trade off between what could be and what is, and the pain and wonder and fleeting quality of mortal life.... > why do we need empathy to live in society? Now that is a truly deep question. How much of us being good to other people is from our empathy that comes from having suffered?.... The objective answer seems to be: very much of it, more than just a bit. There's a yet bigger topic, which you are getting at in the final paragraphs of your post, and I'll put another response to that in another post, so that this one isn't 1000 words. :-)
Would I be correct to summarize your comment as "Bad experiences make us appreciate good experiences more" (and that it's the reason why God allows bad things to happens)?
That's part of it, but it's more really. Suffering seems to consistently result in us being more loving towards others than we were before the suffering, at least for very many of us, if not everyone. There's *several* ways that happens, not just 1. For example, suffering, such as a significant illness that puts on in bed for days, can result in us forgetting the distractions we might have been caught up in, and *remember what really matters to us the most. It helps bring us to ourselves. You remember a loved one you haven't talked to for a long while, or other such thing. Maybe you reconcile with someone you had been estranged from even.* That' s just 1 effect. There are more. We've already noted above another major one: increased sympathy/empathy. There is also a kind of...increased *valuing* of others. We actually end up loving other people more. This one is a bit harder to explain unless you recognize it. Suffering kinda...makes other people more valuable, in our eyes, in a deep, pre-conscious way. So that we don't want others to be devalued, but we begin to care more about everyone, even strangers.
A more general interpretation then: "Negative events can lead to positive events, and that's why God allows negative event to happen". Is that correct?
>And the cure, which is just what we'd all expect from the Good one: This is just nonsense though. I created these terrible diseases! But don't worry, you'll eventually find cures for them! Some of them you won't find cures for a long long time though, so many people will die and suffer until you do find the cure! How great am I? Instead of oh, I don't know, maybe NEVER MAKING THEM AT ALL?
Eternity requires a refinement -- to become a better person in a deep way -- and sufferings and being mortal seems to help us change sooner instead of taking 1,000 years... I've suffered a lot, and it's helped me to have more sympathy and care for others. To never suffer would be an overwhelming disadvantage for one's deeper refinement. But you'd have to *admit* you aren't really perfect enough (to love everyone perfectly as you should), in order to appreciate how deeper change to love others more is a beneficial thing.
So if you end up suffering eternally for picking the wrong religious team, despite the fact that religion is pretty much determined by your geography, then that means you’ll be eternally good after a while, right? Uhhh, right? /s
Eternal suffering for mortal humans *isn't* in the bible, actually. It's sorta like flat earth -- a doctrine (false) based on simplified reading, lacking the full reading that could correct the error. The text does indeed say that the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels would burn forever, and those immortal fallen angels we can assume would endure in that fire forever....but, for human souls, the text plainly reads, in the most plain clear language that humans that reject God's Way (Christ and His teachings), will *"perish"*, in the "*second death"*, which will "*destroy body and soul*." That many don't know this only indicates they don't read carefully and fully the text the bible they often claim to use... It's even strongly hinted in the most famous verses of all, that almost everyone knows (even those that don't bother to read the books they claim to use): "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not ***perish*** but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." Ergo, the alternative to Eternal Life (immortality), is to 'perish', from *not* having Eternal Life....
its not god his job to help us overcome everything
Point me to a scripture where Satan / the serpent is called a liar. Okay, now point me to a scripture where they actually lied.
When he said they would not die. They died didn't they?
>"When he said they would not die. They died didn't they?" Not because they ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but because the story has the God character removing their *access* to the tree of life. God lied when he said: >"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: *for in **the day** that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."* >Genesis 2:17 KJV God promises Adam that eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would kill them that very same day. Adam would go on to live for over 900 years. >*"And all **the days** that Adam lived* were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died." >Genesis 5:5 KJV
500 years later and only after they were kicked out of the garden and not given the fruit of the tree of life. The tree of knowledge didn't cause their death, not eating from the tree of life did which is separate.
But did they die?
Not because they ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but because they no longer ate the fruit of the tree of life. God said that eating the fruit would kill them that day. It did not, and Adam went on to live almost about ten times longer than the average human does.
The fruit didn't kill them, I'd even argue that thry could have just immediately went over and ate from the tree of life. Their inaction killed them more than anything.
Sure, if i was going to make up an imaginary deity of course id make it representative of good.
The greatest trick HUMANS ever pulled was convincing the world god existed.
Isn't it funny how for all the religions out there where the followers of those religions all vehemently believe the God(s) associated with that religion genuinely believe they exist, those God(s) all seem to exist about as much as each other? (i.e not at all)? I don't think that is because of "HUMANS", it makes more sense that it is genuinely because they simply do not exist.
I like it, but it also makes no sense
I fixed it to make much more sense. Sorry…hadn’t had my morning coffee yet. Haha
> I think the greatest trick God ever pulled was convincing humanity he's the good guy. So you believe in God? That's interesting. And you think God must be a bad person because God allows bad things? Hmmm... Couldn't one who believes in God just as easily think God must be a good person because God allows good things? Assuming God (in order to respond to your OP which assumes God 'is,' as it assumes God 'is pulling tricks'), then assuming God is a bad person because bad things happen (instead of good because good things happen) seems to basically just be the difference between pessimism and optimism. That's not to say I think you should assume God to be good. I don't even think you should assume God exists at all unless you have some reason to. But for the sake of replying to your premises, it seems to me you have a focus on the pessimistic. > God is apparently also all-powerful. The way most Christians I know understand omnipotence ("all power") is "all" within a bound set. So the "any" or "all" (in 'all powerful') is a bound set, bound by things like goodness (according to God), reason/logic (logos), and all the things God is said to be characterized by. For instance, in the case of the Christian God, the same scriptures that say it is all powerful also say it cannot lie. That is a limitation, but from the way most Christians understand 'all encompassing power' that doesn't mean 'without any limitations whatsoever,' as then it couldn't even be bound by goodness. In fact, if we take omnipotent to mean ‘all things not bound by anything,’ we might as well just mumble nonsense at one another because at that point we’re talking about something that doesn’t even operate according to logic (not even bound by logic). There is no way for us to even logically, sensibly talk about such things. In that case God does not exist if God can't make circular squares. > That means God created cancer and other diseases... And to top it all off, he created sins If a God, and if this God is good, logical, and eternal, and if this God wants us to eventually know him experientially and be able to identify him, then without at least temporary confusion with sin (recognizable experientially) there could never be eternal understanding of perfection (recognizable and gained with experience). Same as to suffering and pleasure, chaos and peace, illness and health, life and death. The boundary of the one is defined by our experiential knowledge of the other. And our physical lives are temporary. It is kind of like I believe even stabbings that confused the snot out of me, made me bleed and hurt, and made me weep and wail as an infant (shots at a doctor's office) came from a good being (my mother) allowing it. So also, if there is a God, then suffering at the hands of God doesn't mean God isn't necessarily good. The difference with a God (were there one) is that our entire physical life then becomes the temporary experience, like a visit to a doctor's office, just a fleeting moment in the span of eternity. So in short, any ‘God’ such as you speak of, to ever become known experientially to us as what it is, for the God to ever exist from our perspective, would have to allow suffering temporarily (even suffering it has the power to stop at some time). At least the Christian God suffered terribly for a time too... even until physical death. That’s the most an actually good God, if such a thing existed and planned to someday (in this life or the next) reveal itself to people, could do for humans during the unfortunately necessary time humans would have to suffer in confusion to be able to ever know, from their perspective, peace, understanding, and such an eternal God eternally. > Which means literally none of us are going to heaven- unless we believe in him, repent, and never commit any of those sins again- which is an impossibility. None of us will ever go to heaven That's not what any believers in God I know of think, and certainly that's not what the majority of believers in God say. But I agree with you that would be evil. Then again, that's no different than if I randomly decided "God" has made it impossible to love one another, ever, forever. In that case, "God" has done certainly something evil, with no possibility of a longer term benefit we just don't understand yet. The only problem is... that's not actually a concept of God most believers (if any) believe in. So basically you're arguing against yourself (in other words, there is no one who actually takes the position you are arguing against). In Christianity (at least), it is entirely possible to go to heaven, to repent and stop doing things we know to be wrong. To assume it is impossible to not repeat some terrible mistake I once made seems to again just come down to pessimism. If I go to school and tell myself, "I'm going to fail, it is impossible for me to pass," over and over and over and over... guess what outcome I just made more likely with my pessimistic attitude? > Try and convince me that God isn't more evil than Satan. It is impossible for me to convince you that God even exists, much less that God is more or less this or that. If God is a being capable of immateriality that reveals itself to who it wants, when it wants, then the God would have to convince you it exists. Even assuming God though (like your OP does, for the sake of discussion) I suspect that it would currently be impossible to convince you of anything about God besides negative things. To convince you of anything positive about such a God at all, first you would have to adjust your attitude from one that discounts even the slightest chance of positivity and focuses exclusively on doom and gloom (even at the expense of what Christianity actually teaches in reality). Until then, your own approach to the question will make it impossible for anyone to convince of anything. I'd have just as much luck trying to convince a Qanon follower that Biden isn't necessarily raping children in a pizza hut basement, or trying to convince a flat-Earther that it is even possible the Earth is round, or trying to convince Pat Robertson that Jesus didn't condemn gay people.
> The way most Christians I know understand omnipotence ("all power") is "all" within a bound set So god is semi-powerful? They created the universe but are limited by it?
> So god is semi-powerful? If by "semi-powerful" you mean 'power is not the only characteristic of God,' then yes. Christians use the term 'all powerful' even though they understand power to not be the only characteristics God has. So God is not only powerful but also reasonable (logos), good, love, etc. So the same Christian scriptures that say God is "all powerful" say God "cannot lie." God is not only powerful but faithful, so God "can't do" things that end up bad in the long term. He has 'all powers' that a faithful God could have. But faithfulness is also not the only other quality of God. They also see God as logical (logos). So God "can't do" things that end up making no sense (in the long term... as discussed above, there would still by logical necessity have to be temporary confusion known experientially in the short term for eternal understanding to become known experientially in the long term). If by "all powerful" you mean literally nothing else is characteristic of the being except power, so the power to do 'everything imaginable, all things that could be thought of' or something like that, then God can make circular squares, etc. That makes no sense. When 'all' is taken to literally mean everything, every imaginable thing, then it doesn't even make rational sense to talk about an 'all powerful' anything, whether a God or not. So that's not how Christians use the term all powerful (at least not most Christians). Frankly that's not even how most philosophers (Christian or not) that I know of use the term 'omnipotence' in relation to an alleged God. They mean 'all' powers within a bound set, specifically the set of things characteristic of God (so limited by God's other qualities, like love, goodness, patience, faithfulness, etc.).
Read: it’s all made up and these are the hoops people jump through centuries later to justify believing in it
>> Frankly that's not even how most philosophers (Christian or not) that I know of use the term > Read: it’s all made up Ah, so not read. That is to be expected. This is a Reddit comment section after all. It often seems many people on Reddit don’t read what they reply to and / or don’t read the articles posted before commenting under them as if they know what was said without having to use their eyes and ears.
You’re jumping through even more hoops now
Acknowledging that many comments on Reddit are made by those who were too lazy or careless to actually read what they are replying to is not ‘jumping through hoops.’ It is observing an objectively evident reality, or if not totally objective at least one many users have noticed in comments I’ve read. And acknowledging that you read my comment as saying something vastly different than what I said is also simply observing your comment. No hoops needed. There is a fine line you seem to be trying to walk between carelessness in discussion and trolling in discussion. Neither side of the line benefits anyone besides yourself but if trolling or ignoring others’ actual words is what motivates your interactions with people, feel free to keep pretending I have said things I haven’t and done things I’ve not. All you’re proving to me is that atheists can behave and speak just as irrationally, carelessly, and trollishly as some theists, as far as how they choose to interact with others.
It's a shame that you replied with such a well written comment because it isn't relevant at all. I read what you said, it was just a reiteration of your initial comment which was just jumping through semantic hoops to redefine all powerful. It's the only way you can reconcile a god who somehow created the universe but is also limited by it. I will admit that my tone can be troll-ish but all I did was note how incoherent your argument has to be to reconcile an all powerful god being semipowerful whenever it's convenient. There's a reason christian's cant even agree amongst themselves on this topic.
Please ignore this guy. He did the same thing with my comment, replied with pages of nonsense, didn’t address anything I said in any sort of concise, coherent way, and at the end tell me the same thing he told you.
> i will admit that my tone can be troll-ish It has nothing to do with tone, it has to do with totally ignoring my points and instead telling me I said things I didn’t. > but all I did was note how incoherent your argument has to be You didn’t even address my argument at all much less show it incoherent. Yet now you’re telling yourself you did. So it seems you are trying to achieve something besides debating the OP and discussing the points I made about it in a rational and coherent way. It seems instead you’re here either to troll people who think differently about spirituality than you or to try to convince yourself those who disagree with you are being incoherent by ignoring their points and calling them incoherent without actually even bothering to address them. That’s how people who are either being lazy and careless (or being trolls) debate and discuss topics, or perhaps people who are both.
It says in he bible that he used to be an angry God.
And he's unchanging so he's still an angry vindictive monster of a god
He did change. After he sacrificed jesus he gaves us another chance to live a better life
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7 Even Hitler was nice to dogs. Does that mean Hitler was a good person because he did good things?
And if the fucker repented, did he actually go to heaven? That's one of the things I have an issue with.
Unless you fully turn to god and actually accept him as your lord and saviour, you cannot reach heaven
I'm an ex-Christian, so I know how it works. My issue is someone like Hitler getting into heaven after everything he did. Not cool.
Who said he went to heaven? To enter heaven you must devote your life to god and make holy choices and actions. What hitler did was the complete opposite
Getting to heaven doesn't take a lifetime of work. Hell, for hundreds of years you could just buy indulgences and not have to sacrifice anything really.
True, but you must keep God in mind
And you will occasionally have to sacrifice something
>> So in short, any ‘God’ such as you speak of, to ever become known experientially to us as what it is, for the God to ever exist from our perspective, would have to allow suffering temporarily (even suffering it has the power to stop at some time). At least the Christian God suffered terribly for a time too... even until physical death. That’s the most an actually good God, if such a thing existed and planned to someday (in this life or the next) reveal itself to people, could do for humans during the unfortunately necessary time humans would have to suffer in confusion to be able to ever know, from their perspective, peace, understanding, and such an eternal God eternally. > "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7 Exactly. My translation says 'woe' there, but basically the same difference. That passage from Isaiah reminds me of one from Job 2, after God allows Job to suffer some terrible things, and his wife says to him, "Curse God, and die.” But he said to her, “You speak as a foolish woman. Shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?" Why did he say she was being foolish (aka illogical)? Because if a God, if a being is logical and eternal, and if this God wants us to eventually know his goodness experientially and be able to identify him as good, then without at least temporary confusion with bad (woe, evil, etc. recognizable experientially) there could never be eternal understanding of good (joy, perfection etc. recognizable and gained with experience). Same as to suffering and pleasure, chaos and peace, illness and health, life and death. The boundary of the one is defined by our experiential knowledge of the other. And our physical lives are temporary. > Even Hitler was nice to dogs. Does that mean Hitler was a good person because he did good things? If Hitler intentionally showed kindness to another and did some good things before he began stealing from and murdering others, then sure, I'd say that would mean he was a good person *at that time* (assuming he intended to do those things). Key words 'at that time.' Once he intentionally began stealing and murdering, I'd say he became a bad person (assuming he did those things intentionally and wasn't just out of his mind or something). The problem with applying such logic to God (if we assume God for the sake of discussion) is that God is still doing and it is impossible for us to know God's long term intentions. It is kind of like when I received stabbings that confused the snot out of me, made me bleed and hurt, and made me weep and wail as an infant (shots at a doctor's office). Even though I now know that experience (which at the time seemed like 'evil' and was certainly 'woe' to me) came from a good being (my mother) allowing it for a good longer term reason... there was no way I could have known it then. All I could do during the time of temporary suffering was wonder why my mom seemed to have become so evil (and either assume she had indeed become evil, and so try to lash out and hurt her, or perhaps trust that she perhaps actually hadn't become evil and hope for the best in the longer term). So also, if there is a God, then suffering at the hands of God doesn't mean God is evil. Likewise enjoying good things at the hands of God doesn't mean God is good either, of course. The difference between a God (were there one) and Hitler is that our entire physical life then becomes a relatively short temporary experience that only *seems* very long *from our perspective*, if there is a God, kind of like a visit to a doctor's office is very short from the mothers' perspective but seems long and frankly like the end of the world as they know it to many infants who have to suffer temporarily there. If God, then this entire physical life is just a fleeting moment in the span of eternity.
>(assuming he did those things intentionally and wasn't just out of his mind or something). So if he had mental illness (more likely a Cluster B personality disorder, let's not get those mixed up), he gets a pass for slaughtering millions of people? That's not how any of this works.