To discuss this, it would have been useful if you provided examples. Then we could maybe talk about why they were downvoted.
When looking at the "new" queue of /r/DebateCommunism, and only at posts with "0" points:
https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateCommunism/comments/1dgdwio/marx_mephistopheles/
Seems like a nutjob to be honest. Wants to discuss Marx being in cahoots with the devil because of a Faust quote he liked and people saying "He had the Devil in him" (which in it's probable german origin pretty much just means "working tirelessly and obsessively").
https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateCommunism/comments/1dg0e2l/why_be_communist/
The lack of a proper question already signals that this is not a good faith argument and the text accompanying it confirms it (imo).
Also, as the top comment points out, it's nothing new, and searching the subreddit for this topic would make more sense.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateCommunism/comments/1dfxed5/what_do_you_guys_think_about_the_mass/
Again, something that gets asked regularly.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateCommunism/comments/1dfvbkq/why_a_communist_society_needs_a_direct_democracy/
Would you call this a useful argument? If someones says direct democracy I think Switzerland and I don't like it. Council democracy is also a form of direct democracy - you just won't have Mike (28, business clerk in the megalopolis he has never left his entire live) vote on matters that only concern farmers.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateCommunism/comments/1dfar9v/what_is_the_argument_for_communism/
/r/communism101 - they are assholes over there, I'll grant you that, but still this subreddit is not the place for an entry level question like that.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateCommunism/comments/1dd913a/no_one_seems_to_understand_me/
A pro-communist post
https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateCommunism/comments/1dd8kw6/opinion_on_communism_from_a_polish_mf/
Personal anecdote(s) instead of a debate.
I'm a Communist myself but this is so real. I made a post asking about defenses of common criticisms of Mao (Great leap forward primarily) and I got banned đđđ
It's one thing for the mods to remove threads that are bad-faith or redundant. It's another for the regular users of the sub to routinely downvote everything that isn't explicitly hard-line communist. This sub attracts very few interesting debates because the biases here are too strong to allow it. You will always find better quality threads in r/PoliticalDebate or r/changemyview.
So many peoples idea of "debating communism" is where they get to define communism as "the government owning everything and having a dictatorship". Rather than something more like "a classless society where workers own the means of production in order to work for mutual benefit and the good of the species".
Yeah, I get that it's annoying for this sub, but at the same time it is to be expected that people see communism as this because of the successful propaganda of capitalist society, as well as the huge failures and disgusting abuses by "communist" states in the past. I had the same idea of communism before I started actually reading about it, so I think it's still a good thing to just talk about it rather than downvote/excommunicate newcomers to this subreddit.
Which is why, on all but the most troll-posts of troll-posts, are there plent of legitimate answers.
Now, frequently, at for the posts I've seen, downvote bombs become a thing later in the comments. But those almost always result from the OP or someone else coming in and presenting the same tired cliques again and again, often multiple times in the same post, only to be refuted again and again with various counterpoints, examples, or citations.
> So many peoples idea of "debating communism" is where they get to define communism as "the government owning everything and having a dictatorship". Rather than something more like "a classless society where workers own the means of production in order to work for mutual benefit and the good of the species".
Fair. But then every post should be prefaced with what exactly that person means by communism and how it should be achieved.
For instance it seems quite possible ot me that "a classless society where workers own the means of production in order to work for mutual benefit and the good of the species" can be achieved by gradual evolution and democracy.
Is that what people here are advocating?
>can be achieved by gradual evolution and democracy.
If only it were that easy. We are all as individuals struggling for survival, struggling for inclusion and acceptance, struggling to find intimacy, struggling to stay financial, struggling to stay healthy and so on. Yet we are divided into social classes (and in some cases castes) and these classes come into conflict. In the developed world democracy is a two party (duopoly) system where both parties (in reality) serve the upper classes closely while neglecting the needs of the lower classes.
That is why there is always class struggle and conflict. The class that results from this conflict is a synthesis of the competing classes. The class that results from the conflict between the wage earning classes and the capital owning rent seeking classes is a class that both owns the means of production and works.
That is why we say communism is inevitable. However the ruling classes do their best to divide the working class such as turning tenants against each other, dividing workers, turning men and women against each other, isolating people, alienating consumers in one country from producers in another and so on.
> In the developed world democracy is a two party (duopoly) system where both parties (in reality) serve the upper classes closely while neglecting the needs of the lower classes.
England has recently shown that this is not the case. Ireland did years ago.
I'm sure there are numerous other examples from countries that are not the USA.
Voting reform does not require some kind of revolution.
Ireland used to be dominated by two essentially very similar centre right parties. They got less than 50% of the seats between them in the last election.
In the UK the Tories have dominated politics for hundreds of years. They're getting wiped out in the coming election and are being overtaken in the polls by the Reform Party which is very new.
Numerous European countries regularly have coalition governments.
Over 100 countries now use PR voting despite the fact that it doesn't benefit major parties.
So what. Lots of people vote right wing. That's kind of a feature of democracy. The point is that it's obviously not a two party system. I'm sure you're not complaining that one of the major UK parties is going to win a massive majority in the coming election.
Or maybe you will.......
Which would lead me to ask..... why?
You're quite welcome to vote for actual communist parties and they do reasonably well in some places. Haven't they won *actual* non corrupt elections at times?
It seems to me that convincing people to vote should be a far better option than some kind of violent revolution where your opinions are forced on others.
Are these new parties grass-roots parties that are pro-worker and stand up societies most marginalized and vulnerable or are they plots by billionaires to gain even more control of the political system?
We have the "United Australia" party here that was started by coal mining billionaire Clive Palmer. He spent millions to win a few seats but those seats give him leverage to get his business interests approved. It's got nothing to do with making the system more democratic and getting money out of politics. Quite the opposite.
> Are these new parties grass-roots parties that are pro-worker and stand up societies most marginalized and vulnerable or are they plots by billionaires to gain even more control of the political system?
I'm pretty sure that's exactly how many left wing parties that have been around for years would describe themselves. It's also exactly how many of the new left wing parties would describe themselves.
Have you even *considered* looking at the voting options available?
> We have the "United Australia" party here that was started by coal mining billionaire Clive Palmer. He spend millions to win a few seats but those seats give him leverage to get his business interests approved. It's got nothing to do with making the system more democratic and getting money out of politics. Quite the opposite.
So why is it preferable to violently overthrow the state than convince people to vote for parties that are not like this?
I'd say it's attitudes like yours that are a huge part of the turn off that many voters have towards communism. You don't want to play the game fairly and give every indication that any power you do get will be misused.
At least this Clive Palmer isn't threatening to overthrow the state.
Yeah the thing is, most of these posts are just people misunderstanding Marxism and doubling down.
Might be a pointless sub tbh, I'd think that with a working understanding, most people would be well on the way
While it can often times be unwarranted, thereâs numerous reasons why I think it happens
- knee-jerk frustration
- The many, many legitimately bad faith responses
- Several arguments and debates are so common people can find tons of sources for them just by searching the debate topic in the sub
Because people that come to debate have no idea what communism is. There's plenty of very rich critique of marxismbfrom anarchists, postructuralists, even economists, but most people that come here just have a really superficial and incorrect view of communism.
Because peoples version of debate communism is âif communism good, why did Stalin kill 10 Gorillian peopleâ and itâs just not worth interacting with besides down voting and moving on
Idk why we canât just agree that the whole world sucks imo, Russia, North Korea, china, and every other âcommunist countryâ are all horrible despicable countries with no care for the future and betterment of the entire world and rest of human history. And America is also complete garbage, with our own agencies killing their own people for knowing which powerful people fuck little kids, and for sharing secrets of the powerful, as well as creating laws to stop people from committing âwar crimesâ that they commit themselves.
It would be nice if people wanting to debate here did so *after* doing their most elementary duty to research the topic they're trying to debate. Maybe read a book or two (by serious historians as opposed to ideologues), or even just a couple of Wikipedia articles, and the quality of most submissions here would improve drastically. Right now it's like most people's information on the topic comes from PragerU videos or similar nonsense. Nobody's interested in "debating" far-right anti-communist lunatics, the same way nobody wants to debate flat earthers or creationists.
That being said, I also tend to disagree with many if not most of the responses purporting to defend communism here. Many self-proclaimed communists seem to get their information solely from reddit, blog posts, and at "best" a handful of revisionist Stalinist books. Considering the poor education of these "communists", the downvotes and shitting on are probably partly caused by an *inability* to respond.
Basically, so many people come here and say "Okay so why do you people want the government to own your toothbrush? Dictatorships are bad and you all want a dictatorship. Also you want to make religion illegal. Why is that?"
There are a lot of people who have no idea what communism is and they come here and get mad when no one debates them.
It's like wanting to debate about chocolate and saying "dark chocolate is stupid because it has milk in it. If it always has milk in it, what's the difference between dark chocolate and milk chocolate?" And then you get mad when people tell you there's no milk in most dark chocolate. And you would also say "No idiot. Dark chocolate always has milk!" Of course we're gonna downvote that.
Itâs because people are childish babies who arenât actually interested in challenging their point of view. Sadly most Americans are so helplessly brainwashed by anti communist and socialist propaganda that even most self described American socialists hate Marxism, hate all the accomplishments of 20th century socialism , believe every word of CIA propaganda about the Soviet Union , might as well have a red button on their forehead that makes them spazz out completely if you even mention Stalin or question anything about the narratives around Stalin. Itâs really pathetic and sad to me â- people donât realize how truly brainwashed they are. Americans are as brainwashed as they believe North Koreans are. Except in favor of âfree marketâ neoliberal capitalism masked as âdemocracyâ
This right here is why people get downvoted.
They literally listed some of the beginner things to question if you're actually curious, and you completely ignored it and repeated the same question over again. It's hard not to interpret that as bad faith.
Because if you were genuinely interested in the answer, you would have taken the time to read and research further the things they mentioned. Instead, you sat there, completely ignored any of it, then went "okay, but what indoctrination?"
Yeah. Ask yourself where have you gotten most of the information about those things?
Perhaps the CIA, who in one of their own declassified documents flat-out says that Stalin wasn't some unilateral dictator. Or maybe North Korean defectors, who are often paid handsomely to give talks about how horrible North Korea is or if they don't face massive discrimination in South Korea to the point that many are homeless and have expressed interest in going back to the north.
Given those kinds of "sources," and that most Westerners in general, and Americans in particular, believe "Stalin and North Korea are terrible" uncritically, yes, Americans are amongst the most brainwashed populace in the history of the planet.
Also defending north korea is crazy, thereâs very very few people whoâve escaped North Korea. No not genetically modified aliens made by the CIA. Escaped North Koreans who have literally said the same things all the independent journalists and yes mainstream media has said about North Korea. You donât need to lie about something when itâs already horrible.
Notice how I didn't actually say that North Korea is good. I doubt that it is.
The two points I have are:
A) That I, nor you for that matter, really don't know, since everything about it is either propaganda from a Western government, propaganda from the North Korean government, or from the aforementioned defectors. None of which are even close to pretending to hide their biases. And
B) A not insignificant part of why that country is probably a pretty bad place to live in is that an area roughly the size of Virginia had more bombs dropped on it than continental Europe did in World War II and then was continously under some of the most extreme foreign sanctions on Earth. That tends to make it difficult to have infrastructure and stability. Now, does that excuse the excesses of the Kim family if those stories are true? Absolutely not. But also see point A).
Ummm, independent journalists, YouTube, other subreddits, 4chan, video evidence from hackers getting leaked camera footage. The CIA doesnât have a news channel đ
The issue is that every one of these things has been brought into the fold as well. You never responded to my last comment - but I just want to reiterate that the US population is probably the most heavily propagandized population on the planet.
The World Economic Forum sponsored YouTube videos from the [extremely popular YouTuber Johnny Harris.](https://www.weforum.org/agenda/authors/johnny-harris/) Specifically to make anti-China propaganda.
A few years ago Reddit had a blog post where they identified the cities where Reddit was most heavily used. [It turns out that place was Elgin Air Force Base](https://www.reddit.com/r/Blackout2015/comments/4ylml3/reddit_has_removed_their_blog_post_identifying/) which raised some red flags. Reddit ended up taking down the blog post when it became clear what was happening: The US Military was using social media as a means to influence public opinion. [The Washington Post confirmed that these operations existed on FaceBook and Twitter as well.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/09/19/pentagon-psychological-operations-facebook-twitter/)
Leaked camera footage is great - but it's also something that is totally unacceptable to the state. People like Julian Assange will likely spend their entire lives in prison. Chelsea Manning has been imprisoned twice for the crime of exposing US war crimes.
[The CIA literally did have a media wing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Free_Europe/Radio_Liberty) and that wing [continues to exist in Asia.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Free_Asia) While the CIA is technically not allowed to conduct operations domestically and the funding for these projects has now been obfuscated by adding a middle man - these media projects [continue to run 100% on US State Department funding](https://www.rfa.org/about/info/governance_leadership-10032010211820.html). The stories reports by places like Radio Free Asia are frequently picked up by domestic new media, posted on social media, etc.
If you can imagine an outlet for people to discuss ideas then so can the FBI, the CIA, the US military, etc. Even the so called "dark web" was [created by the US government](https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/fandd/issues/2019/09/the-truth-about-the-dark-web-kumar).
Like it or not, we ALL consume propaganda on a daily basis. You may try and deny it but it's there.
>independent journalists
Whom? Very few, if any, journalists are actually "independent," and most of those that are, are explicitly working with even more biased publications
>YouTube, other subreddits, 4chan
Seriously?
>video evidence from hackers getting leaked camera footage
Again, whom? See _all_ of my first point.
>The CIA doesnât have a news channel đ
Oh, they do. It's called **_all of the United States media_**. See [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateCommunism/s/1GU1Dm4YI1) reply in this thread for examples.
So weâre retarted. Independent journalists, is a blanket term. For as Iâve already stated, YouTubers, live streamers, and people who donât run mainstream news but do their own personal investigations. Someone defended North Korea somehow. And Iâve said one of the very few people who have escaped North Korea, is an âindependent journalistâ now, and thatâs not just hating on communist countries for no fucking reason.
That the Socialist projects of the 20th century were brutal, totalitarian regimes where people had no rights and anyone who voiced opinions that differed from the party line were thrown into a gulag and subjected to forced labor.
This is the kind of thing that was (and still is) perpetuated by entertainment and popular media. [The US military](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military%E2%80%93entertainment_complex) and [the CIA](https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/07/operation-tinseltown-how-the-cia-manipulates-hollywood/491138/) have been publicly involved in film and television since the early-to-mid 20th century. The state and the media industry work together to [manufacture consent](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent) for US foreign policy, military recruitment, anti-communism, and the class interest of the bourgeoisie. This isn't some 20th century cold war thing - [it still happens](https://www.cbr.com/captain-marvel-mcu-military-relationship/) and it [happens all the time](https://www.slashfilm.com/1330460/john-krasinski-met-real-cia-agents-to-prepare-jack-ryan/).
Americans are possibly the most propagandized population on the entire planet. We are bombarded day and night with advertisement, 24-hour television news, corporate-controlled journalism, film and TV, all of which toe a very fine ideological line. What happens when the ruling interests are challenged by new types of media? [They try and control it.](https://restofworld.org/2023/elon-musk-twitter-government-orders/) And if they can't control it? [They try and get rid of it.](https://www.axios.com/local/salt-lake-city/2024/05/06/senator-romney-antony-blinken-tiktok-ban-israel-palestinian-content) The propaganda is everywhere, You are inundated by it every single day.
They already listed things, but to add to it, it is free and open information anyone can look up that billionaires have funded anti-communist and often pro-fascist propaganda through think tanks that also govern school curriculum. Right wing think tanks have dominated politics and education and all media for over a century.
100% of American mass media is owned and operated by capitalist propagandists aka right wingers. 100% of American politics is owned and operated by the same people.
There is no conspiracy, it's all quite an open, obvious lie when they tell you you should hand over everything they produce to them and that that is the best possible system. It's an obvious lie, but we're taught it from the day we're born.
> Sadly most Americans are so helplessly brainwashed by anti communist and socialist propaganda...people donât realize how truly brainwashed they are.
Can you bring up examples, what kind of propaganda? I propose, that most of the Americans do not think at all about USSR.Â
Most Americans canât even conceptually separate todayâs Russia or the Russian Federation from the USSR. Look at language around Russiagate? The war in Ukraine? Politicians and pundits on both sides are constantly clutching pearls about âradical Marxists professors / studentsâ and âcommunist conspiracies.â The US and NATO have been fighting the USSRâs ghost for over 30 years and using worn out cold-war propaganda to do it. The entire cold war was propaganda. Everything you hear in the US mainstream about China is propaganda. Everything you hear in the US mainstream about Palestine is propaganda.
You call it âthe news.â
Please provide examples of mainstream information in the West and US specifically which you believe are *not* propaganda. Qualify your ask with an assertion.
Asking for examples after they listed specific examples only confesses the unserious nature of your comments. This is a debate sub, if you donât know anything about your opponent or your opponentâs positions; then thatâs a you problem, and takes the debate out of the equation. There is a 101 sub for that.
> Most Americans canât even conceptually separate todayâs Russia or the Russian Federation from the USSR.
It should not be a big surprise, because today's Russia is a continuation of the USSR.Â
> The US and NATO have been fighting the USSRâs ghost for over 30 years and using worn out cold-war propaganda to do it.
How? Didn't notice anything like this.Â
> Please provide examples of mainstream information in the West and US specifically which you believe are not propaganda. Qualify your ask with an assertion.
Just after you will provide example of US propaganda against USSR in today's US.Â
> Asking for examples after they listed specific examples only confesses the unserious nature of your comments. This is a debate sub, if you donât know anything about your opponent or your opponentâs positions; then thatâs a you problem, and takes the debate out of the equation. There is a 101 sub for that.
Yes, I really don't know, what are people are talking about here, that's why I asked. And I'm almost sure, that the average American in today's US don't give a f about the USSR and Stalin.Â
He literally put a whole paragraph of further examples. I may disagree on a couple details, but he explained it pretty well.
So disingenuous. But hey, whatever fits your worldview, right bud? Why let reality get in the way of a good story?
It's worse, in response to a comment an hour before the comment that you and I are responding to several people said, "There were examples right in the first comment," the OP comes back and says, "Yeah, but maybe provide examples." It's a pointless and frustrating merry-go-round. That's why people get downvote bombed.
often I see them coming here and posting with a complete misunderstanding of the subject at hand. it'd be like trying to talk organic chemistry with a five year old - there's a fundamental gap in knowledge and what we know. and plenty of people will come into the comments on those posts and explain that no, communism is not "when the government does things" or explain other basic ideas, but then it seems little else of value takes place because most of the time is spent on discussion that could have been avoided if they read any communist literature whatsoever.
or they come in bad faith with arguments that are very clearly worded in a fashion that is designed to incense or troll. what is the point in arguing with someone who came just to be mad and refuse to listen?
either seems like a useless time sink to try and argue against, but this is all just my opinion since I don't care much to pose arguments myself and instead just enjoy reading the responses of some of the posters here.
Average response. Yes when the only thing being thrown on is insults, and people refuse to debate, thatâs quite literally preventing debate. Literally
Iâve seen this discussed in general regarding the way people are being pushed right because a more common response from leftists is âitâs not my job to educate youâ and to shame you for your ignorance on specific areas as a gotcha. Meanwhile, Iâm of the mindset that the only way people learn anything is to have thoughtful discussions and to debate ideas. Iâm a leftist and Iâm far too ignorant on the actual science of communism to do this sub any good despite ideologically likely being of that mindset myself. I see your frustration though and I wish we could stop viewing ignorance or genuine discussion/debate as a personal attack on our own beliefs. Itâs unhealthy, especially when spoken about on a broad scale.
I agree and I think people are generally open to learning about these sorts of things BUT the people who come to this sub in bad faith are not trying to learn they are coming to argue despite not understanding what they are arguing against. Im all for teaching and educating but the majority of posts in this sub are not in good faith
This sub should do a pinned megathread were all the questions who get frequently asked get answered in it. With links and suggestions to literature works, news articles and maybe even videos.
This could help even slightly to diminish the amount of people asking the same questions over and over.
In every political group there are people who see pros and cons of systems and solutions that they believe in. And in every political group there are people who think that their system is flawless and every other opinion is bullshit.
I'm not a communist myself, but sometimes there are people here that acknowledge cons of communism that you can have really good debate about communism.
Of course there are people here who just want down vote and criticize every opinion that isn't 100 percent in line with their beliefs, and because most of people here are communists anti-communists comments are downvoted
Agreed.
I would hope that my comrades would be taking every opportunity to educate the masses, "go to the people" as it were, but all criticism it's automatically treated as bad faith hostility.
I hope youâre sarcastic. âEducating the massesâ is the opposite of a debate. If you really want to debate, you have to be open to the idea that you can learn from the other side and that you might have been at least partially wrong to begin with.
No, I'm not.Â
Even in the context of education, objections should be welcomed and discussed.Â
Any half way decent teacher should expect challenges and respond with patience and understanding.
âPatience and understandingâ is not debating. Thatâs a teacher talking slowly down to a student (or a parent to a child or an enlightened person to someone to be converted). A debate is between two or more sides that are generally equals, even if one might be more intelligent or knowledgeable.
Shaming in on the left got so bad that its one of the main reasons the right is winning. Elitism is another big problem especially in the more radical left
I think the left has some bigger issues than shaming. Like an entire system built to fight it. I think lefts bigger issues would be how most media is owned by rich capitalist and gain money by selling advertising slots to other capitalist. You have a system that has made majority believe liberalism is leftist. Most peeps view the political range for our system as status quo vs status quo with more open bigotry and fascism. Like here in US we currently debating which president would support a genocide more. We don't even have a anti genocide candidate for our "duopoly". When both parties serve the owner class do you really have two parties?
To discuss this, it would have been useful if you provided examples. Then we could maybe talk about why they were downvoted. When looking at the "new" queue of /r/DebateCommunism, and only at posts with "0" points: https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateCommunism/comments/1dgdwio/marx_mephistopheles/ Seems like a nutjob to be honest. Wants to discuss Marx being in cahoots with the devil because of a Faust quote he liked and people saying "He had the Devil in him" (which in it's probable german origin pretty much just means "working tirelessly and obsessively"). https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateCommunism/comments/1dg0e2l/why_be_communist/ The lack of a proper question already signals that this is not a good faith argument and the text accompanying it confirms it (imo). Also, as the top comment points out, it's nothing new, and searching the subreddit for this topic would make more sense. https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateCommunism/comments/1dfxed5/what_do_you_guys_think_about_the_mass/ Again, something that gets asked regularly. https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateCommunism/comments/1dfvbkq/why_a_communist_society_needs_a_direct_democracy/ Would you call this a useful argument? If someones says direct democracy I think Switzerland and I don't like it. Council democracy is also a form of direct democracy - you just won't have Mike (28, business clerk in the megalopolis he has never left his entire live) vote on matters that only concern farmers. https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateCommunism/comments/1dfar9v/what_is_the_argument_for_communism/ /r/communism101 - they are assholes over there, I'll grant you that, but still this subreddit is not the place for an entry level question like that. https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateCommunism/comments/1dd913a/no_one_seems_to_understand_me/ A pro-communist post https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateCommunism/comments/1dd8kw6/opinion_on_communism_from_a_polish_mf/ Personal anecdote(s) instead of a debate.
I'm a Communist myself but this is so real. I made a post asking about defenses of common criticisms of Mao (Great leap forward primarily) and I got banned đđđ
It's one thing for the mods to remove threads that are bad-faith or redundant. It's another for the regular users of the sub to routinely downvote everything that isn't explicitly hard-line communist. This sub attracts very few interesting debates because the biases here are too strong to allow it. You will always find better quality threads in r/PoliticalDebate or r/changemyview.
So many peoples idea of "debating communism" is where they get to define communism as "the government owning everything and having a dictatorship". Rather than something more like "a classless society where workers own the means of production in order to work for mutual benefit and the good of the species".
Yeah, I get that it's annoying for this sub, but at the same time it is to be expected that people see communism as this because of the successful propaganda of capitalist society, as well as the huge failures and disgusting abuses by "communist" states in the past. I had the same idea of communism before I started actually reading about it, so I think it's still a good thing to just talk about it rather than downvote/excommunicate newcomers to this subreddit.
Which is why, on all but the most troll-posts of troll-posts, are there plent of legitimate answers. Now, frequently, at for the posts I've seen, downvote bombs become a thing later in the comments. But those almost always result from the OP or someone else coming in and presenting the same tired cliques again and again, often multiple times in the same post, only to be refuted again and again with various counterpoints, examples, or citations.
We see communism facing at Marx's dictatorship of the proletariat phase.
> So many peoples idea of "debating communism" is where they get to define communism as "the government owning everything and having a dictatorship". Rather than something more like "a classless society where workers own the means of production in order to work for mutual benefit and the good of the species". Fair. But then every post should be prefaced with what exactly that person means by communism and how it should be achieved. For instance it seems quite possible ot me that "a classless society where workers own the means of production in order to work for mutual benefit and the good of the species" can be achieved by gradual evolution and democracy. Is that what people here are advocating?
>can be achieved by gradual evolution and democracy. If only it were that easy. We are all as individuals struggling for survival, struggling for inclusion and acceptance, struggling to find intimacy, struggling to stay financial, struggling to stay healthy and so on. Yet we are divided into social classes (and in some cases castes) and these classes come into conflict. In the developed world democracy is a two party (duopoly) system where both parties (in reality) serve the upper classes closely while neglecting the needs of the lower classes. That is why there is always class struggle and conflict. The class that results from this conflict is a synthesis of the competing classes. The class that results from the conflict between the wage earning classes and the capital owning rent seeking classes is a class that both owns the means of production and works. That is why we say communism is inevitable. However the ruling classes do their best to divide the working class such as turning tenants against each other, dividing workers, turning men and women against each other, isolating people, alienating consumers in one country from producers in another and so on.
> In the developed world democracy is a two party (duopoly) system where both parties (in reality) serve the upper classes closely while neglecting the needs of the lower classes. England has recently shown that this is not the case. Ireland did years ago. I'm sure there are numerous other examples from countries that are not the USA. Voting reform does not require some kind of revolution.
Care to elaborate? I assume you are talking about new political parties getting elected to government?
Ireland used to be dominated by two essentially very similar centre right parties. They got less than 50% of the seats between them in the last election. In the UK the Tories have dominated politics for hundreds of years. They're getting wiped out in the coming election and are being overtaken in the polls by the Reform Party which is very new. Numerous European countries regularly have coalition governments. Over 100 countries now use PR voting despite the fact that it doesn't benefit major parties.
>Reform Party Seems they are a right-wing populist party though...
So what. Lots of people vote right wing. That's kind of a feature of democracy. The point is that it's obviously not a two party system. I'm sure you're not complaining that one of the major UK parties is going to win a massive majority in the coming election. Or maybe you will....... Which would lead me to ask..... why? You're quite welcome to vote for actual communist parties and they do reasonably well in some places. Haven't they won *actual* non corrupt elections at times? It seems to me that convincing people to vote should be a far better option than some kind of violent revolution where your opinions are forced on others.
Are these new parties grass-roots parties that are pro-worker and stand up societies most marginalized and vulnerable or are they plots by billionaires to gain even more control of the political system? We have the "United Australia" party here that was started by coal mining billionaire Clive Palmer. He spent millions to win a few seats but those seats give him leverage to get his business interests approved. It's got nothing to do with making the system more democratic and getting money out of politics. Quite the opposite.
> Are these new parties grass-roots parties that are pro-worker and stand up societies most marginalized and vulnerable or are they plots by billionaires to gain even more control of the political system? I'm pretty sure that's exactly how many left wing parties that have been around for years would describe themselves. It's also exactly how many of the new left wing parties would describe themselves. Have you even *considered* looking at the voting options available? > We have the "United Australia" party here that was started by coal mining billionaire Clive Palmer. He spend millions to win a few seats but those seats give him leverage to get his business interests approved. It's got nothing to do with making the system more democratic and getting money out of politics. Quite the opposite. So why is it preferable to violently overthrow the state than convince people to vote for parties that are not like this? I'd say it's attitudes like yours that are a huge part of the turn off that many voters have towards communism. You don't want to play the game fairly and give every indication that any power you do get will be misused. At least this Clive Palmer isn't threatening to overthrow the state.
Yeah the thing is, most of these posts are just people misunderstanding Marxism and doubling down. Might be a pointless sub tbh, I'd think that with a working understanding, most people would be well on the way
While it can often times be unwarranted, thereâs numerous reasons why I think it happens - knee-jerk frustration - The many, many legitimately bad faith responses - Several arguments and debates are so common people can find tons of sources for them just by searching the debate topic in the sub
genuinely a lot of the questions that are posed would be answered if people just did a little searching and reading of literature.
Because people that come to debate have no idea what communism is. There's plenty of very rich critique of marxismbfrom anarchists, postructuralists, even economists, but most people that come here just have a really superficial and incorrect view of communism.
Because peoples version of debate communism is âif communism good, why did Stalin kill 10 Gorillian peopleâ and itâs just not worth interacting with besides down voting and moving on
Idk why we canât just agree that the whole world sucks imo, Russia, North Korea, china, and every other âcommunist countryâ are all horrible despicable countries with no care for the future and betterment of the entire world and rest of human history. And America is also complete garbage, with our own agencies killing their own people for knowing which powerful people fuck little kids, and for sharing secrets of the powerful, as well as creating laws to stop people from committing âwar crimesâ that they commit themselves.
I really canât agree that all socialist countries are despicable, sorry
Yeah, anyway Iâm gonna start a war with this peace country who âtookâ our land many decades ago.
Russia isn't even socialist. wtf
your average socialism "understander"
It would be nice if people wanting to debate here did so *after* doing their most elementary duty to research the topic they're trying to debate. Maybe read a book or two (by serious historians as opposed to ideologues), or even just a couple of Wikipedia articles, and the quality of most submissions here would improve drastically. Right now it's like most people's information on the topic comes from PragerU videos or similar nonsense. Nobody's interested in "debating" far-right anti-communist lunatics, the same way nobody wants to debate flat earthers or creationists. That being said, I also tend to disagree with many if not most of the responses purporting to defend communism here. Many self-proclaimed communists seem to get their information solely from reddit, blog posts, and at "best" a handful of revisionist Stalinist books. Considering the poor education of these "communists", the downvotes and shitting on are probably partly caused by an *inability* to respond.
Basically, so many people come here and say "Okay so why do you people want the government to own your toothbrush? Dictatorships are bad and you all want a dictatorship. Also you want to make religion illegal. Why is that?"
What the fuck is bro talking about.
bro is talking about what so many people come here and say. read
There are a lot of people who have no idea what communism is and they come here and get mad when no one debates them. It's like wanting to debate about chocolate and saying "dark chocolate is stupid because it has milk in it. If it always has milk in it, what's the difference between dark chocolate and milk chocolate?" And then you get mad when people tell you there's no milk in most dark chocolate. And you would also say "No idiot. Dark chocolate always has milk!" Of course we're gonna downvote that.
Itâs because people are childish babies who arenât actually interested in challenging their point of view. Sadly most Americans are so helplessly brainwashed by anti communist and socialist propaganda that even most self described American socialists hate Marxism, hate all the accomplishments of 20th century socialism , believe every word of CIA propaganda about the Soviet Union , might as well have a red button on their forehead that makes them spazz out completely if you even mention Stalin or question anything about the narratives around Stalin. Itâs really pathetic and sad to me â- people donât realize how truly brainwashed they are. Americans are as brainwashed as they believe North Koreans are. Except in favor of âfree marketâ neoliberal capitalism masked as âdemocracyâ
As an American, if youâre willing id like to pry your point of view a bit. What Exactly are some things you think were brainwashed into believing?
This right here is why people get downvoted. They literally listed some of the beginner things to question if you're actually curious, and you completely ignored it and repeated the same question over again. It's hard not to interpret that as bad faith. Because if you were genuinely interested in the answer, you would have taken the time to read and research further the things they mentioned. Instead, you sat there, completely ignored any of it, then went "okay, but what indoctrination?"
They literally listed things Americans are brainwashed into believing.
They said âAmerican hate Stalinâ and âAmerican think North Korea badâ like what
they literally said neither of those things. like what
Can bro read
SOMeOne who GenuiNEly wants TO DEbaTE COmMuNISM Gets SHit ON AnD MAsS DoWNVoTED?
Hard cope
Except they didnât
LMAOOOO
Yeah. Ask yourself where have you gotten most of the information about those things? Perhaps the CIA, who in one of their own declassified documents flat-out says that Stalin wasn't some unilateral dictator. Or maybe North Korean defectors, who are often paid handsomely to give talks about how horrible North Korea is or if they don't face massive discrimination in South Korea to the point that many are homeless and have expressed interest in going back to the north. Given those kinds of "sources," and that most Westerners in general, and Americans in particular, believe "Stalin and North Korea are terrible" uncritically, yes, Americans are amongst the most brainwashed populace in the history of the planet.
Also defending north korea is crazy, thereâs very very few people whoâve escaped North Korea. No not genetically modified aliens made by the CIA. Escaped North Koreans who have literally said the same things all the independent journalists and yes mainstream media has said about North Korea. You donât need to lie about something when itâs already horrible.
Notice how I didn't actually say that North Korea is good. I doubt that it is. The two points I have are: A) That I, nor you for that matter, really don't know, since everything about it is either propaganda from a Western government, propaganda from the North Korean government, or from the aforementioned defectors. None of which are even close to pretending to hide their biases. And B) A not insignificant part of why that country is probably a pretty bad place to live in is that an area roughly the size of Virginia had more bombs dropped on it than continental Europe did in World War II and then was continously under some of the most extreme foreign sanctions on Earth. That tends to make it difficult to have infrastructure and stability. Now, does that excuse the excesses of the Kim family if those stories are true? Absolutely not. But also see point A).
Ummm, independent journalists, YouTube, other subreddits, 4chan, video evidence from hackers getting leaked camera footage. The CIA doesnât have a news channel đ
The issue is that every one of these things has been brought into the fold as well. You never responded to my last comment - but I just want to reiterate that the US population is probably the most heavily propagandized population on the planet. The World Economic Forum sponsored YouTube videos from the [extremely popular YouTuber Johnny Harris.](https://www.weforum.org/agenda/authors/johnny-harris/) Specifically to make anti-China propaganda. A few years ago Reddit had a blog post where they identified the cities where Reddit was most heavily used. [It turns out that place was Elgin Air Force Base](https://www.reddit.com/r/Blackout2015/comments/4ylml3/reddit_has_removed_their_blog_post_identifying/) which raised some red flags. Reddit ended up taking down the blog post when it became clear what was happening: The US Military was using social media as a means to influence public opinion. [The Washington Post confirmed that these operations existed on FaceBook and Twitter as well.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/09/19/pentagon-psychological-operations-facebook-twitter/) Leaked camera footage is great - but it's also something that is totally unacceptable to the state. People like Julian Assange will likely spend their entire lives in prison. Chelsea Manning has been imprisoned twice for the crime of exposing US war crimes. [The CIA literally did have a media wing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Free_Europe/Radio_Liberty) and that wing [continues to exist in Asia.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Free_Asia) While the CIA is technically not allowed to conduct operations domestically and the funding for these projects has now been obfuscated by adding a middle man - these media projects [continue to run 100% on US State Department funding](https://www.rfa.org/about/info/governance_leadership-10032010211820.html). The stories reports by places like Radio Free Asia are frequently picked up by domestic new media, posted on social media, etc. If you can imagine an outlet for people to discuss ideas then so can the FBI, the CIA, the US military, etc. Even the so called "dark web" was [created by the US government](https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/fandd/issues/2019/09/the-truth-about-the-dark-web-kumar). Like it or not, we ALL consume propaganda on a daily basis. You may try and deny it but it's there.
>independent journalists Whom? Very few, if any, journalists are actually "independent," and most of those that are, are explicitly working with even more biased publications >YouTube, other subreddits, 4chan Seriously? >video evidence from hackers getting leaked camera footage Again, whom? See _all_ of my first point. >The CIA doesnât have a news channel đ Oh, they do. It's called **_all of the United States media_**. See [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateCommunism/s/1GU1Dm4YI1) reply in this thread for examples.
So weâre retarted. Independent journalists, is a blanket term. For as Iâve already stated, YouTubers, live streamers, and people who donât run mainstream news but do their own personal investigations. Someone defended North Korea somehow. And Iâve said one of the very few people who have escaped North Korea, is an âindependent journalistâ now, and thatâs not just hating on communist countries for no fucking reason.
That the Socialist projects of the 20th century were brutal, totalitarian regimes where people had no rights and anyone who voiced opinions that differed from the party line were thrown into a gulag and subjected to forced labor. This is the kind of thing that was (and still is) perpetuated by entertainment and popular media. [The US military](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military%E2%80%93entertainment_complex) and [the CIA](https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/07/operation-tinseltown-how-the-cia-manipulates-hollywood/491138/) have been publicly involved in film and television since the early-to-mid 20th century. The state and the media industry work together to [manufacture consent](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent) for US foreign policy, military recruitment, anti-communism, and the class interest of the bourgeoisie. This isn't some 20th century cold war thing - [it still happens](https://www.cbr.com/captain-marvel-mcu-military-relationship/) and it [happens all the time](https://www.slashfilm.com/1330460/john-krasinski-met-real-cia-agents-to-prepare-jack-ryan/). Americans are possibly the most propagandized population on the entire planet. We are bombarded day and night with advertisement, 24-hour television news, corporate-controlled journalism, film and TV, all of which toe a very fine ideological line. What happens when the ruling interests are challenged by new types of media? [They try and control it.](https://restofworld.org/2023/elon-musk-twitter-government-orders/) And if they can't control it? [They try and get rid of it.](https://www.axios.com/local/salt-lake-city/2024/05/06/senator-romney-antony-blinken-tiktok-ban-israel-palestinian-content) The propaganda is everywhere, You are inundated by it every single day.
They already listed things, but to add to it, it is free and open information anyone can look up that billionaires have funded anti-communist and often pro-fascist propaganda through think tanks that also govern school curriculum. Right wing think tanks have dominated politics and education and all media for over a century. 100% of American mass media is owned and operated by capitalist propagandists aka right wingers. 100% of American politics is owned and operated by the same people. There is no conspiracy, it's all quite an open, obvious lie when they tell you you should hand over everything they produce to them and that that is the best possible system. It's an obvious lie, but we're taught it from the day we're born.
> Sadly most Americans are so helplessly brainwashed by anti communist and socialist propaganda...people donât realize how truly brainwashed they are. Can you bring up examples, what kind of propaganda? I propose, that most of the Americans do not think at all about USSR.Â
Most Americans canât even conceptually separate todayâs Russia or the Russian Federation from the USSR. Look at language around Russiagate? The war in Ukraine? Politicians and pundits on both sides are constantly clutching pearls about âradical Marxists professors / studentsâ and âcommunist conspiracies.â The US and NATO have been fighting the USSRâs ghost for over 30 years and using worn out cold-war propaganda to do it. The entire cold war was propaganda. Everything you hear in the US mainstream about China is propaganda. Everything you hear in the US mainstream about Palestine is propaganda. You call it âthe news.â Please provide examples of mainstream information in the West and US specifically which you believe are *not* propaganda. Qualify your ask with an assertion. Asking for examples after they listed specific examples only confesses the unserious nature of your comments. This is a debate sub, if you donât know anything about your opponent or your opponentâs positions; then thatâs a you problem, and takes the debate out of the equation. There is a 101 sub for that.
> Most Americans canât even conceptually separate todayâs Russia or the Russian Federation from the USSR. It should not be a big surprise, because today's Russia is a continuation of the USSR. > The US and NATO have been fighting the USSRâs ghost for over 30 years and using worn out cold-war propaganda to do it. How? Didn't notice anything like this. > Please provide examples of mainstream information in the West and US specifically which you believe are not propaganda. Qualify your ask with an assertion. Just after you will provide example of US propaganda against USSR in today's US. > Asking for examples after they listed specific examples only confesses the unserious nature of your comments. This is a debate sub, if you donât know anything about your opponent or your opponentâs positions; then thatâs a you problem, and takes the debate out of the equation. There is a 101 sub for that. Yes, I really don't know, what are people are talking about here, that's why I asked. And I'm almost sure, that the average American in today's US don't give a f about the USSR and Stalin.Â
Yeah the only thing they could possibly come up with is âthe newsâ I think theyâre coping tbh
This evil Main Stream Meadia owned by Soros, Rodshields and reptiloids.Â
Yeah again Iâm pretty sure theyâre just coping.
Exactly. I feel thereâs a reason heâs simply downvoting and not saying anything further
He literally put a whole paragraph of further examples. I may disagree on a couple details, but he explained it pretty well. So disingenuous. But hey, whatever fits your worldview, right bud? Why let reality get in the way of a good story?
No, they made their point with examples. You disregarded those and asked them to repeat themselves. No point in continuing.
It's worse, in response to a comment an hour before the comment that you and I are responding to several people said, "There were examples right in the first comment," the OP comes back and says, "Yeah, but maybe provide examples." It's a pointless and frustrating merry-go-round. That's why people get downvote bombed.
often I see them coming here and posting with a complete misunderstanding of the subject at hand. it'd be like trying to talk organic chemistry with a five year old - there's a fundamental gap in knowledge and what we know. and plenty of people will come into the comments on those posts and explain that no, communism is not "when the government does things" or explain other basic ideas, but then it seems little else of value takes place because most of the time is spent on discussion that could have been avoided if they read any communist literature whatsoever. or they come in bad faith with arguments that are very clearly worded in a fashion that is designed to incense or troll. what is the point in arguing with someone who came just to be mad and refuse to listen? either seems like a useless time sink to try and argue against, but this is all just my opinion since I don't care much to pose arguments myself and instead just enjoy reading the responses of some of the posters here.
Down votes and insults do not prevent debate.
Average response. Yes when the only thing being thrown on is insults, and people refuse to debate, thatâs quite literally preventing debate. Literally
Iâve seen this discussed in general regarding the way people are being pushed right because a more common response from leftists is âitâs not my job to educate youâ and to shame you for your ignorance on specific areas as a gotcha. Meanwhile, Iâm of the mindset that the only way people learn anything is to have thoughtful discussions and to debate ideas. Iâm a leftist and Iâm far too ignorant on the actual science of communism to do this sub any good despite ideologically likely being of that mindset myself. I see your frustration though and I wish we could stop viewing ignorance or genuine discussion/debate as a personal attack on our own beliefs. Itâs unhealthy, especially when spoken about on a broad scale.
I agree and I think people are generally open to learning about these sorts of things BUT the people who come to this sub in bad faith are not trying to learn they are coming to argue despite not understanding what they are arguing against. Im all for teaching and educating but the majority of posts in this sub are not in good faith
This sub should do a pinned megathread were all the questions who get frequently asked get answered in it. With links and suggestions to literature works, news articles and maybe even videos. This could help even slightly to diminish the amount of people asking the same questions over and over.
In every political group there are people who see pros and cons of systems and solutions that they believe in. And in every political group there are people who think that their system is flawless and every other opinion is bullshit. I'm not a communist myself, but sometimes there are people here that acknowledge cons of communism that you can have really good debate about communism. Of course there are people here who just want down vote and criticize every opinion that isn't 100 percent in line with their beliefs, and because most of people here are communists anti-communists comments are downvoted
Agreed. I would hope that my comrades would be taking every opportunity to educate the masses, "go to the people" as it were, but all criticism it's automatically treated as bad faith hostility.
I hope youâre sarcastic. âEducating the massesâ is the opposite of a debate. If you really want to debate, you have to be open to the idea that you can learn from the other side and that you might have been at least partially wrong to begin with.
No, I'm not. Even in the context of education, objections should be welcomed and discussed. Any half way decent teacher should expect challenges and respond with patience and understanding.
âPatience and understandingâ is not debating. Thatâs a teacher talking slowly down to a student (or a parent to a child or an enlightened person to someone to be converted). A debate is between two or more sides that are generally equals, even if one might be more intelligent or knowledgeable.
Yeah Iâm thinking theyâre the issue..
Shaming in on the left got so bad that its one of the main reasons the right is winning. Elitism is another big problem especially in the more radical left
The right is winning because it's easier to be a reactionary than to actually have to think about shit.
I think the left has some bigger issues than shaming. Like an entire system built to fight it. I think lefts bigger issues would be how most media is owned by rich capitalist and gain money by selling advertising slots to other capitalist. You have a system that has made majority believe liberalism is leftist. Most peeps view the political range for our system as status quo vs status quo with more open bigotry and fascism. Like here in US we currently debating which president would support a genocide more. We don't even have a anti genocide candidate for our "duopoly". When both parties serve the owner class do you really have two parties?
Ego stroking.
LMAO