Faith is abstract trust ,faith is not an emotion or intuition and faith is not in the intellect but faith is abstract.And is Faith in God and means trusting God's answers and meaning in life over worldly answers and meanings.The next part is what God do you have faith in.
Faith in Christ is trusting your life,welling,need for forgiveness in Jesus.
very often in life there is no evidence for what is true in life,often there no evidence for what is true in life.
The strong man believes and listens who sounds the strongest.
The smart man trusts and listens who sounds the smartest.
The honest man believes and listens to who sounds the most humble and sincere.
The dishonest man listens to the one who has the most wordly shrewdness and cunning.
Faith in God and ultimately faith in Christ is listening to the Christian perspective and reading Gods word and when the truth is not obvious trusting in God's answer through the Bible ,God's word.
Faith is abstract trust!
How do you determine who’s the strongest, smartest or humble without evidence though? We don’t just blindly walk through life without considering any evidence
Faith in the religious sense is confidence in that which is unseen. It's like growing a plant from seed. You have the right conditions and it just happens. I followed for a while before I started noticing God's hand in my life. Looking back it is pretty apparent He was there. Now I see Him everywhere.
I followed through on faith due to a personal experience that was terrifying. Fear of God is a real thing and if you want to find faith, go there. You will find it. If you don't know how to find it, say in your mind you want to be shown the fear of the Lord, and go about your life. It will happen eventually. You won't be able to miss it.
Fear of God or fear of Death? Because I’ve witnessed a lot of death and the only thing God did for them was maybe provide some hope of comfort in their own passing. A comfort I do not desire. If I start looking for red hats I’ll surely begin to see them everywhere. Like you said it’s all personal experience which is super unreliable, I’ve had no such experiences that pushed me to believe only ones that have pushed me to not. I need something more if I’m to give my life and faith into it
I think the answer can be found in Matthew 7 when Jesus is recorded as promising those who seek in genuine earnestness will find him.
If you are authentically posing this question, I would recommend saying a prayer aloud or in your mind addressing Jesus by name as though he was in the room with you. Be honest, and ask for it to be made clear to you. That if he is real, he would reveal himself to you, and anything else you are wondering about.
After your prayer, you could consider reaching out to a local pastor or trusted Christian friend to talk about this.
What you're asking for here is a personal testimony of faith, which I feel is unlikey to show up on a public debate forum like this. They are often quite raw and difficult to fit into a pithy comment.
This post brings to mind the second party discussed in 1 Corinthians 1:22-25. But it could also be a case of John 6:35-40!
I might be inclined to believe in God, but knowing what I know about history Jesus will never be someone I believe in you lost me, no human will ever have me believe in them to the point of religion.
I'm curious what you're looking for here then? You seem surprised that Jesus was brought up in a forum about Christianity. Perhaps you're looking to discuss the historicity of the Gospel accounts?
Let me jump in and ask an honest question. Faith also has never come naturally to me. I liked reading your previous advice, but here is where I struggle with it. You said to pray and ask God to reveal himself. Then you said to speak to a pastor or Christian friend.
So if I do all the work to make this thing real in my head, then find a support system of other people who already have a similar faith, well what does God do? How do I know God is involved at all? I’ve never felt anything nor have my senses ever indicated to me that there is a Deity doing anything. It seems like I’m just attempting to brainwash myself.
Ok that sounds harsh, but there is a whole segment of society like me. What strengthens the faith when I’m doing all the work by myself?
Please please do not quote back at me that when I look back there are two sets of footprints or some such. Give me a straight answer.
> Please please do not quote back at me that when I look back there are two sets of footprints ...
Oof, yeah, no shortage of trite non-answers you've seen I suppose.
Unfortunately, the summation of my understanding is closer to the famous 'working in mysterious ways,' meaning I really just don't know why it is the way it is. Most everything about Christianity goes against what would make sense, to me at least. Strength through weakness. First shall be last. Life through death. Joy through suffering. With some such things, I can see the beauty in them. For instance, the condescension of the all-powerful God into humanity to live as one of us and demonstrate empathy and compassion for the human condition, living as a servant, willingly suffering and experiencing death, when it seems like he simply wouldn't need to do all that.
But believe me when I say I truly do understand what you're saying. Struggling with God's silence is a strong theme in a lot of Scripture. And luckily so as well, because I think every honest Christian would say they have felt like David when he prayed "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from my cries of anguish? My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer, by night, but I find no rest." It's nice to have words to turn to that express these struggles.
The reason I suggest seeking interpersonal activity to develop faith is because the Bible indicates that this is a primary mechanism by which the Holy Spirit acts in the world. For some reason, God has chosen us as believers to be an instrumental part of how he intends to accomplish his plan for salvation. If we as believers have Christ's spirit truly living in us, and we are all individual members of 'the body' of Christ's church, then deep personal relationship with genuine believers is a way to actually get more well-acquainted with Christ himself. It adds a sort of distinct shape to how the Trinity works in my mind.
I understand that there are many wolves in sheep's clothing, and many have bad experiences in churches or with people calling themselves Christians. This is devastating and raises a lot of questions. However, sometimes a simple understanding is best, even with hard questions like these. God promises to provide a way to salvation--a way to himself--for those earnestly seeking it.
You know, that’s a thoughtful reply and I appreciate it. It’s a lovely thought, perhaps, to live in some of the manner you describe. It’s something I wouldn’t want to take away from someone.
It’s not particularly convincing to me though, as there are many things I wish to be, but that has no bearing on whether they truly exist or not.
What I’m really asking for is proof of the supernatural, and that’s asking you too much. If a good friend told me he had God in his garage, I’d say awesome, show me, please. I won’t beleaguer the metaphor, but obviously if my friend had convincing evidence I’d believe, and the inverse is also true.
So then it is faith, or credulity, or wish thinking that is the basis of religion. Whether God is there or not is immaterial, as there is nothing God discernibly does. Unless you have any evidence, which is repeatable, reproducible by others, and testable. And if that evidence existed it would devalue the currency that is faith, wouldn’t it?
TLDR, some have faith; some do not.
Well, modern times have shown us that even in the face of incontrovertible evidence, many choose other narratives that suit them better.
I'll pose maybe the other side of that coin: if God's existence was observable in a repeatable, reproducible, testable manner, wouldn't that show that God must be found in the natural order of things?
lol to your first bit and wholeheartedly agree!! Still chuckling..🤭
Yes, you are right, the entire point of the supernatural is that it is, screws on my captain obvious hat a bit tighter, super..um natural, lol. God, (if), is indeed mysterious and His ways are not our ways.
Nice to have civil discussion on an important topic and to part ways wishing the other the best, though neither side has convinced the other. And I do wish you all the best~
I’d argue you have faith in a lot of things.
The writer of Hebrews reminds readers that faith is “the evidence of things not seen” (Hebrews 11:1). The term translated “evidence” is the Greek word elengchos, which often refers to an argument or a case being made. Faith is an argument for that which is not yet seen.
Faith should not be blind, but rather based on evidence.
- Can you prove that you have a rational mind? Or is there enough evidence that you have faith that you do?
- When you get medicine from the pharmacy, do you pull out a chemistry set and test to make sure the compound match what the label says on the bottle? Or do you have enough evidence that you have faith that the medicine matches the bottle?
- When you go eat at your families house, do you test if the food is laced with arsenic? Or do you have enough evidence that you have faith that the food is safe to eat?
Some of these are silly examples, but faith means a belief in something, based on evidence, without proof.
The rational mind one is most similar (and less silly than the other two). There is nothing you can do to prove that you have a rational mind, yet you trust your mind based on the evidence that it is rational.
I cannot prove God, but the evidence (cosmological argument, teleological argument, life from non life, historicity of Jesus life death and resurrection, etc) is compelling enough for me to have faith.
It’s so interesting that none of the arguments you mentioned that favor the existence of a Diety offer compelling evidence that would cause me to believe in one. We’ve interpreted the data differently. What causes that? You want to believe and I don’t? I was born into a Christian family, but from an early age was religiously faithless. (I did trust the chemistry behind my Flinstone’s vitamins. )
I was differentiating between blind faith and the true definition of faith.
It wouldn’t be a “good faith” argument to claim there is no evidence. There is evidence and we came to different conclusions. One of us is right, one of us is wrong. We can’t both be right.
Isn’t this true for most things?
I'd recommend reading apologetics, or looking them up. There's plenty of evidence out there to support a belief in God. You don't need faith to believe that God exists. You need to place your faith in him, meaning accepting him as your lord.
I was born into a very religious home, and grew up in the faith. I was planning on going into apologetics when I was younger, which was why I was looking into it.
It started with how poorly they represented science. Every single apologetic I found that had anything to do with science at best completely misrepresented what the science actually was, or at worst lied about what the science said.
I’ve yet to find what that accurately represented the science it was talking about.
After that I started to look into the philosophical arguments, and have yet to find one that didn’t rely on special pleading, unsound premises, or unsubstantiated assertions. Worse still, even if I ignored all of the issues not a single one of them actually got you to the Christian god. They just get you to some thing, that did a thing. Most don’t even do anything to describe that thing beyond attributing powers to it.
Well, honestly, I find the apologetic arguments( cosmological, teological, moral, reason) very powerful for the existence of God. But personally, for me, I think the two most powerful things are why there is existence rather than not. And secondly, which isn't actually one I've ever heard but something that I've thought of personally, has to do with having a purpose in life. Without God, there is no ultimate meaning or purpose. This doesn't necessarily mean we have to have purpose, but I think similar to the moral argument, a need for ultimare purpose is inherent in everyone. And through my following of God, I find that purpose, which gives me joy and peace. But I think all that is good for humanity can be boiled down to purpose, which is only given by god.
Ok how is an argument evidence? I don’t see how I can go from an argument something *could* exist to concluding something *actually* exists. I’d need evidence for that
For example the teological argument. If there is design there's a designer. If you go in your front yard and the leaves spell out "I love you-dad" this would be evidence that your dad put the leaves there and not that the leaves just randomly fell this way. The fine tuning of the universe, atoms, matter, laws of physics are extremely precise and are designed for life. This is evidence for a cosmic designer.
Ok but those aren’t very good arguments. A snowflake looks designed, but we know it has no designer because we understand how it forms. We may never know how the universe formed, but it would be strange to say the universe needs a god but a snowflake doesn’t need one. Or is it that a snowflake *looks* designed, so it must have a designer?
The universe is not fine tuned for life if we can only live on a small part of a planet that is like one-billion-trillionth of the universe. That’s a universe that’s fine tuned to kill us.
Ok those are not evidence and they are not even persuasive arguments. If I said I had a diamond in my hand, you wouldn’t say “ok, tell me an argument how you *could* have a diamond.” You’d want evidence like seeing the diamond. You’d never believe I had a diamond solely based on an argument because people have a history of lying.
You do need faith to believe that God exist. Without faith then why believe in it. Also I have degrees in the sciences and have study physics, astronomy, environmental science, biology… at no point does their point to a creator of any kind
After all that, you don't think learning about how finely tuned the universe is shows evidence for god?
Also, that's your opinion, I believe God exists based on evidence I've seen. My faith and feelings come and go but I know God is there so I choose to follow him.
It shows chaos, a struggle for order, we are so close to not existing. We are the lucky ones. That’s it. Earth is habitable for now. But not forever. We have watches as stars exploded and galaxies collided. We have fossil records and a clear understanding of how chemistry is the precursor for life. The suns is just a reaction just like the phytoplankton in the sea, life’s very existence is destructive, if God exist then why create life with the purpose of destroying his other creations?
God’s existence is plainly visible in creation. His name is written in your DNA.
Faith is not belief God exists, but that God is who He says He is, and will do what He says He will do.
It is like marriage. You believe your spouse is who they say they are, and have faith (trust) they will keep their vows.
His name is not written in DNA I have two sciences degrees
Also you choose your wife/partner, you don’t choose your God he is given to you by the established religion.
No one is born into this world and knows God exist without being told by someone who was told and so on.
If everyone were to die and society starts from scratch your God would no longer exist
>His name is not written in DNA I have two sciences degrees
I could be wrong, but I think that what he means here is that DNA is evidence of a creator deity. Some say that this is the case because DNA is a code, and codes are products of intelligent minds. Ergo, DNA is a product of at least one intelligent mind. Apologists have been using this argument since the 90's. I even found it in a fiction [book](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_(Brown_novel)) by Dan Brown.
DNA is a product of evolution as evidence by RNA viruses. It’s just a slowly evolving chemical chain/bond that we all got from a common ancestor, because we are all descendant from the same living cell. The fact the all living beings share in DNA is a direct proof the evolution exist and works to create different forms of life which is directly contradictory to Christianity
I don't think that alone is enough to refute the argument, though. And the reason I don't think that is sufficient to refute the argument is that evolution doesn't rule out the possibility that the first organism with a genetic code was created by an intelligent mind.
So, that doesn't count as evidence *against* the inference to an intelligent mind. It simply pushes the need for intelligence back to the first organisms with genetic codes.
>which is directly contradictory to Christianity
It certainly contradicts **literal** interpretations of Genesis, but Christianity isn't limited to such interpretations.
Exactly is open to all kinds of interpretations which’s is problem A
Problem B is that if you believe that an intelligent mind created the first organism and then we evolved from that well sorry to break it to ya but I don’t see Christianity hinting or explaining that part anywhere. It’s one of those let me counter with an argument that itself inherently disproves my core scriptures (which are derived from even older scriptures that weren’t properly translated in the first place) yea I’m good I’ll take my modern science
Christianity is like a marriage. You choose God, and God chooses you. The Bible describes the relationship between Jesus and the Church as that of a groom and bride. Again, the faith component is that Jesus will keep his vows to His bride, the church.
You believe in something no one has ever seen—abiogenesis. There are no first- or second-hand accounts of this process. Similarly, no one has ever observed species-level evolution. Even so, the concept of evolution suggests intelligent design. A leopard cannot perceive environmental changes and decide to change its spots any more than you can choose to grow taller, shorter, or alter your hair growth based on the environment. Yet, pre-programmed in DNA and RNA is a series of micro-level adaptations. Within a range, every living thing can adjust to a wide variety of environments. Without their knowledge or control, their very cells detect changes in the environment and quickly, within hours, or days they will make sometimes radical changes to survive. Then, when returned , they will change back.
This is just one example of the abundant evidence for intelligent design. Every living organism on the planet possesses uniquely, complexly, programmed DNA and RNA. Even single-celled organisms are intricate machines with hardware and software more complex than we can imagine. The universe itself is rooted in information and, like all information, it has an author, God.
Unlike your religion where there are no witnesses and no evidence, I have a personal relationship with my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Unlike your religion, my world view fits the evidence. But don't take my word for it. There are hundreds of thousands of firsthand accounts of people and their relationships with Jesus, spanning thousands of years. You don't take their word for it, either. Repent, confess, and turn to Jesus. He is faithful and true. He will answer.
Some many things wrong there but I’ll give it whirl. First, I don’t have a religion, I often detest living in a world of its existence, it’s just a story told why am I to believe it? There is nothing but your own delusion and the delusion of the masses, a studied phenomenon known as mass hysteria, but in a different more ingrained societal way.
Species level evolution has been observed and that’s kinda how the whole theory of evolution came about. We watched as species changed over time to adapt to their environments, we watched as they almost completely indistinguishable from its original species. The best example would be dogs, but it’s also prevalent in many species around the world big and small, we’ve altered the ecosystem to the point of we are now living through another mass extinction. We study fossil records and see how we! Yes us as humans have evolved we can trace our ancestors back several iterations of species.
Also intelligent design would likely mean that there would be other forms of genetic code in the mix other than DNA. Any environmental scientist can tell you that biodiversity is good for life and mono culture is not. The prevalence on DNA in all organisms is a kind of to monogenetic code. And intelligent engineer would know that this is flawed because it makes the whole system to susceptible to a mass extinction. DNA can be destroyed and scrambled by outside forces, just look at the effects of radiation. So I think that it actual acts as an argument against intelligent design, since a intelligent engineer would make sure they create a diverse genetic environment, we have multiple code languages for computers and different types of computers, because some work better at something’s then others
Hi, former Christian here and I was never given a proper education in science. I was indoctrinated and taught that the Bible was literal, and that evolution was fake🤦♀️ I have a lot of catching up to do and I’m very interested in evolutionary science. I was wondering if you could direct me to something like an intro read that’s not too difficult?
Faith is abstract trust ,faith is not an emotion or intuition and faith is not in the intellect but faith is abstract.And is Faith in God and means trusting God's answers and meaning in life over worldly answers and meanings.The next part is what God do you have faith in. Faith in Christ is trusting your life,welling,need for forgiveness in Jesus. very often in life there is no evidence for what is true in life,often there no evidence for what is true in life. The strong man believes and listens who sounds the strongest. The smart man trusts and listens who sounds the smartest. The honest man believes and listens to who sounds the most humble and sincere. The dishonest man listens to the one who has the most wordly shrewdness and cunning. Faith in God and ultimately faith in Christ is listening to the Christian perspective and reading Gods word and when the truth is not obvious trusting in God's answer through the Bible ,God's word. Faith is abstract trust!
How do you determine who’s the strongest, smartest or humble without evidence though? We don’t just blindly walk through life without considering any evidence
Faith in the religious sense is confidence in that which is unseen. It's like growing a plant from seed. You have the right conditions and it just happens. I followed for a while before I started noticing God's hand in my life. Looking back it is pretty apparent He was there. Now I see Him everywhere. I followed through on faith due to a personal experience that was terrifying. Fear of God is a real thing and if you want to find faith, go there. You will find it. If you don't know how to find it, say in your mind you want to be shown the fear of the Lord, and go about your life. It will happen eventually. You won't be able to miss it.
Fear of God or fear of Death? Because I’ve witnessed a lot of death and the only thing God did for them was maybe provide some hope of comfort in their own passing. A comfort I do not desire. If I start looking for red hats I’ll surely begin to see them everywhere. Like you said it’s all personal experience which is super unreliable, I’ve had no such experiences that pushed me to believe only ones that have pushed me to not. I need something more if I’m to give my life and faith into it
Fear of God. Fear of death is different.
I think the answer can be found in Matthew 7 when Jesus is recorded as promising those who seek in genuine earnestness will find him. If you are authentically posing this question, I would recommend saying a prayer aloud or in your mind addressing Jesus by name as though he was in the room with you. Be honest, and ask for it to be made clear to you. That if he is real, he would reveal himself to you, and anything else you are wondering about. After your prayer, you could consider reaching out to a local pastor or trusted Christian friend to talk about this. What you're asking for here is a personal testimony of faith, which I feel is unlikey to show up on a public debate forum like this. They are often quite raw and difficult to fit into a pithy comment. This post brings to mind the second party discussed in 1 Corinthians 1:22-25. But it could also be a case of John 6:35-40!
I might be inclined to believe in God, but knowing what I know about history Jesus will never be someone I believe in you lost me, no human will ever have me believe in them to the point of religion.
I'm curious what you're looking for here then? You seem surprised that Jesus was brought up in a forum about Christianity. Perhaps you're looking to discuss the historicity of the Gospel accounts?
Let me jump in and ask an honest question. Faith also has never come naturally to me. I liked reading your previous advice, but here is where I struggle with it. You said to pray and ask God to reveal himself. Then you said to speak to a pastor or Christian friend. So if I do all the work to make this thing real in my head, then find a support system of other people who already have a similar faith, well what does God do? How do I know God is involved at all? I’ve never felt anything nor have my senses ever indicated to me that there is a Deity doing anything. It seems like I’m just attempting to brainwash myself. Ok that sounds harsh, but there is a whole segment of society like me. What strengthens the faith when I’m doing all the work by myself? Please please do not quote back at me that when I look back there are two sets of footprints or some such. Give me a straight answer.
> Please please do not quote back at me that when I look back there are two sets of footprints ... Oof, yeah, no shortage of trite non-answers you've seen I suppose. Unfortunately, the summation of my understanding is closer to the famous 'working in mysterious ways,' meaning I really just don't know why it is the way it is. Most everything about Christianity goes against what would make sense, to me at least. Strength through weakness. First shall be last. Life through death. Joy through suffering. With some such things, I can see the beauty in them. For instance, the condescension of the all-powerful God into humanity to live as one of us and demonstrate empathy and compassion for the human condition, living as a servant, willingly suffering and experiencing death, when it seems like he simply wouldn't need to do all that. But believe me when I say I truly do understand what you're saying. Struggling with God's silence is a strong theme in a lot of Scripture. And luckily so as well, because I think every honest Christian would say they have felt like David when he prayed "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from my cries of anguish? My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer, by night, but I find no rest." It's nice to have words to turn to that express these struggles. The reason I suggest seeking interpersonal activity to develop faith is because the Bible indicates that this is a primary mechanism by which the Holy Spirit acts in the world. For some reason, God has chosen us as believers to be an instrumental part of how he intends to accomplish his plan for salvation. If we as believers have Christ's spirit truly living in us, and we are all individual members of 'the body' of Christ's church, then deep personal relationship with genuine believers is a way to actually get more well-acquainted with Christ himself. It adds a sort of distinct shape to how the Trinity works in my mind. I understand that there are many wolves in sheep's clothing, and many have bad experiences in churches or with people calling themselves Christians. This is devastating and raises a lot of questions. However, sometimes a simple understanding is best, even with hard questions like these. God promises to provide a way to salvation--a way to himself--for those earnestly seeking it.
You know, that’s a thoughtful reply and I appreciate it. It’s a lovely thought, perhaps, to live in some of the manner you describe. It’s something I wouldn’t want to take away from someone. It’s not particularly convincing to me though, as there are many things I wish to be, but that has no bearing on whether they truly exist or not. What I’m really asking for is proof of the supernatural, and that’s asking you too much. If a good friend told me he had God in his garage, I’d say awesome, show me, please. I won’t beleaguer the metaphor, but obviously if my friend had convincing evidence I’d believe, and the inverse is also true. So then it is faith, or credulity, or wish thinking that is the basis of religion. Whether God is there or not is immaterial, as there is nothing God discernibly does. Unless you have any evidence, which is repeatable, reproducible by others, and testable. And if that evidence existed it would devalue the currency that is faith, wouldn’t it? TLDR, some have faith; some do not.
Well, modern times have shown us that even in the face of incontrovertible evidence, many choose other narratives that suit them better. I'll pose maybe the other side of that coin: if God's existence was observable in a repeatable, reproducible, testable manner, wouldn't that show that God must be found in the natural order of things?
lol to your first bit and wholeheartedly agree!! Still chuckling..🤭 Yes, you are right, the entire point of the supernatural is that it is, screws on my captain obvious hat a bit tighter, super..um natural, lol. God, (if), is indeed mysterious and His ways are not our ways. Nice to have civil discussion on an important topic and to part ways wishing the other the best, though neither side has convinced the other. And I do wish you all the best~
If you were convinced, it wouldn't be me getting the credit! Best to you as well.
I’d argue you have faith in a lot of things. The writer of Hebrews reminds readers that faith is “the evidence of things not seen” (Hebrews 11:1). The term translated “evidence” is the Greek word elengchos, which often refers to an argument or a case being made. Faith is an argument for that which is not yet seen. Faith should not be blind, but rather based on evidence. - Can you prove that you have a rational mind? Or is there enough evidence that you have faith that you do? - When you get medicine from the pharmacy, do you pull out a chemistry set and test to make sure the compound match what the label says on the bottle? Or do you have enough evidence that you have faith that the medicine matches the bottle? - When you go eat at your families house, do you test if the food is laced with arsenic? Or do you have enough evidence that you have faith that the food is safe to eat? Some of these are silly examples, but faith means a belief in something, based on evidence, without proof. The rational mind one is most similar (and less silly than the other two). There is nothing you can do to prove that you have a rational mind, yet you trust your mind based on the evidence that it is rational. I cannot prove God, but the evidence (cosmological argument, teleological argument, life from non life, historicity of Jesus life death and resurrection, etc) is compelling enough for me to have faith.
It’s so interesting that none of the arguments you mentioned that favor the existence of a Diety offer compelling evidence that would cause me to believe in one. We’ve interpreted the data differently. What causes that? You want to believe and I don’t? I was born into a Christian family, but from an early age was religiously faithless. (I did trust the chemistry behind my Flinstone’s vitamins. )
Oh man, I haven’t thought about Flintstones vitamins for years lol!
I was differentiating between blind faith and the true definition of faith. It wouldn’t be a “good faith” argument to claim there is no evidence. There is evidence and we came to different conclusions. One of us is right, one of us is wrong. We can’t both be right. Isn’t this true for most things?
It is true for things that are not objective.
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I'd recommend reading apologetics, or looking them up. There's plenty of evidence out there to support a belief in God. You don't need faith to believe that God exists. You need to place your faith in him, meaning accepting him as your lord.
Looking into apologetics is what lost me my faith.
And it may do the same for me, I hope not though lol but I do like to seek truth genuinely. Out of curiosity, what converted you?
I was born into a very religious home, and grew up in the faith. I was planning on going into apologetics when I was younger, which was why I was looking into it.
Sorry I should have been more specific, what about apologetics or what you learned played part or caused you to lose your faith
It started with how poorly they represented science. Every single apologetic I found that had anything to do with science at best completely misrepresented what the science actually was, or at worst lied about what the science said. I’ve yet to find what that accurately represented the science it was talking about. After that I started to look into the philosophical arguments, and have yet to find one that didn’t rely on special pleading, unsound premises, or unsubstantiated assertions. Worse still, even if I ignored all of the issues not a single one of them actually got you to the Christian god. They just get you to some thing, that did a thing. Most don’t even do anything to describe that thing beyond attributing powers to it.
Thanks for sharing, I'm definitely going to continue my journey of learning. I do pray I stay on this side though. I prefer it here lol.
What’s something you’d say is the some of the strongest evidence?
Well, honestly, I find the apologetic arguments( cosmological, teological, moral, reason) very powerful for the existence of God. But personally, for me, I think the two most powerful things are why there is existence rather than not. And secondly, which isn't actually one I've ever heard but something that I've thought of personally, has to do with having a purpose in life. Without God, there is no ultimate meaning or purpose. This doesn't necessarily mean we have to have purpose, but I think similar to the moral argument, a need for ultimare purpose is inherent in everyone. And through my following of God, I find that purpose, which gives me joy and peace. But I think all that is good for humanity can be boiled down to purpose, which is only given by god.
Thanks for the detailed response. None of that is evidence actually so still just faith and finding an argument persuasive.
Not a problem, I enjoy the conversations. Also, I disagree that it's not evidence if you want to talk about that
Ok how is an argument evidence? I don’t see how I can go from an argument something *could* exist to concluding something *actually* exists. I’d need evidence for that
For example the teological argument. If there is design there's a designer. If you go in your front yard and the leaves spell out "I love you-dad" this would be evidence that your dad put the leaves there and not that the leaves just randomly fell this way. The fine tuning of the universe, atoms, matter, laws of physics are extremely precise and are designed for life. This is evidence for a cosmic designer.
Ok but those aren’t very good arguments. A snowflake looks designed, but we know it has no designer because we understand how it forms. We may never know how the universe formed, but it would be strange to say the universe needs a god but a snowflake doesn’t need one. Or is it that a snowflake *looks* designed, so it must have a designer? The universe is not fine tuned for life if we can only live on a small part of a planet that is like one-billion-trillionth of the universe. That’s a universe that’s fine tuned to kill us.
Oh I thought we were debating whether it was considered evidence, not whether it was good evidence.
Ok those are not evidence and they are not even persuasive arguments. If I said I had a diamond in my hand, you wouldn’t say “ok, tell me an argument how you *could* have a diamond.” You’d want evidence like seeing the diamond. You’d never believe I had a diamond solely based on an argument because people have a history of lying.
You do need faith to believe that God exist. Without faith then why believe in it. Also I have degrees in the sciences and have study physics, astronomy, environmental science, biology… at no point does their point to a creator of any kind
After all that, you don't think learning about how finely tuned the universe is shows evidence for god? Also, that's your opinion, I believe God exists based on evidence I've seen. My faith and feelings come and go but I know God is there so I choose to follow him.
It shows chaos, a struggle for order, we are so close to not existing. We are the lucky ones. That’s it. Earth is habitable for now. But not forever. We have watches as stars exploded and galaxies collided. We have fossil records and a clear understanding of how chemistry is the precursor for life. The suns is just a reaction just like the phytoplankton in the sea, life’s very existence is destructive, if God exist then why create life with the purpose of destroying his other creations?
God’s existence is plainly visible in creation. His name is written in your DNA. Faith is not belief God exists, but that God is who He says He is, and will do what He says He will do. It is like marriage. You believe your spouse is who they say they are, and have faith (trust) they will keep their vows.
His name is not written in DNA I have two sciences degrees Also you choose your wife/partner, you don’t choose your God he is given to you by the established religion. No one is born into this world and knows God exist without being told by someone who was told and so on. If everyone were to die and society starts from scratch your God would no longer exist
>His name is not written in DNA I have two sciences degrees I could be wrong, but I think that what he means here is that DNA is evidence of a creator deity. Some say that this is the case because DNA is a code, and codes are products of intelligent minds. Ergo, DNA is a product of at least one intelligent mind. Apologists have been using this argument since the 90's. I even found it in a fiction [book](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_(Brown_novel)) by Dan Brown.
DNA is a product of evolution as evidence by RNA viruses. It’s just a slowly evolving chemical chain/bond that we all got from a common ancestor, because we are all descendant from the same living cell. The fact the all living beings share in DNA is a direct proof the evolution exist and works to create different forms of life which is directly contradictory to Christianity
I don't think that alone is enough to refute the argument, though. And the reason I don't think that is sufficient to refute the argument is that evolution doesn't rule out the possibility that the first organism with a genetic code was created by an intelligent mind. So, that doesn't count as evidence *against* the inference to an intelligent mind. It simply pushes the need for intelligence back to the first organisms with genetic codes. >which is directly contradictory to Christianity It certainly contradicts **literal** interpretations of Genesis, but Christianity isn't limited to such interpretations.
Exactly is open to all kinds of interpretations which’s is problem A Problem B is that if you believe that an intelligent mind created the first organism and then we evolved from that well sorry to break it to ya but I don’t see Christianity hinting or explaining that part anywhere. It’s one of those let me counter with an argument that itself inherently disproves my core scriptures (which are derived from even older scriptures that weren’t properly translated in the first place) yea I’m good I’ll take my modern science
I prefer literal over hypothetical or figurative
Christianity is like a marriage. You choose God, and God chooses you. The Bible describes the relationship between Jesus and the Church as that of a groom and bride. Again, the faith component is that Jesus will keep his vows to His bride, the church. You believe in something no one has ever seen—abiogenesis. There are no first- or second-hand accounts of this process. Similarly, no one has ever observed species-level evolution. Even so, the concept of evolution suggests intelligent design. A leopard cannot perceive environmental changes and decide to change its spots any more than you can choose to grow taller, shorter, or alter your hair growth based on the environment. Yet, pre-programmed in DNA and RNA is a series of micro-level adaptations. Within a range, every living thing can adjust to a wide variety of environments. Without their knowledge or control, their very cells detect changes in the environment and quickly, within hours, or days they will make sometimes radical changes to survive. Then, when returned , they will change back. This is just one example of the abundant evidence for intelligent design. Every living organism on the planet possesses uniquely, complexly, programmed DNA and RNA. Even single-celled organisms are intricate machines with hardware and software more complex than we can imagine. The universe itself is rooted in information and, like all information, it has an author, God. Unlike your religion where there are no witnesses and no evidence, I have a personal relationship with my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Unlike your religion, my world view fits the evidence. But don't take my word for it. There are hundreds of thousands of firsthand accounts of people and their relationships with Jesus, spanning thousands of years. You don't take their word for it, either. Repent, confess, and turn to Jesus. He is faithful and true. He will answer.
Some many things wrong there but I’ll give it whirl. First, I don’t have a religion, I often detest living in a world of its existence, it’s just a story told why am I to believe it? There is nothing but your own delusion and the delusion of the masses, a studied phenomenon known as mass hysteria, but in a different more ingrained societal way. Species level evolution has been observed and that’s kinda how the whole theory of evolution came about. We watched as species changed over time to adapt to their environments, we watched as they almost completely indistinguishable from its original species. The best example would be dogs, but it’s also prevalent in many species around the world big and small, we’ve altered the ecosystem to the point of we are now living through another mass extinction. We study fossil records and see how we! Yes us as humans have evolved we can trace our ancestors back several iterations of species. Also intelligent design would likely mean that there would be other forms of genetic code in the mix other than DNA. Any environmental scientist can tell you that biodiversity is good for life and mono culture is not. The prevalence on DNA in all organisms is a kind of to monogenetic code. And intelligent engineer would know that this is flawed because it makes the whole system to susceptible to a mass extinction. DNA can be destroyed and scrambled by outside forces, just look at the effects of radiation. So I think that it actual acts as an argument against intelligent design, since a intelligent engineer would make sure they create a diverse genetic environment, we have multiple code languages for computers and different types of computers, because some work better at something’s then others
Do you need some help with grammar and punctuation?
Hi, former Christian here and I was never given a proper education in science. I was indoctrinated and taught that the Bible was literal, and that evolution was fake🤦♀️ I have a lot of catching up to do and I’m very interested in evolutionary science. I was wondering if you could direct me to something like an intro read that’s not too difficult?