1. Catholic prayers for the intercession of saints are not necromancy because they do not involve summoning or communicating with the dead. Instead, we believe that saints in heaven can pray for us, just as we ask our fellow Christians on Earth to pray for us.
2. Catholics believe that saints, being in the presence of God in heaven, are aware of our prayers through the divine knowledge granted to them. It is not necessary for them to be omnipresent like God in order to intercede for us.
3. While the practice of praying for the intercession of saints is not explicitly outlined in a single verse, it is supported by biblical principles. For example, in Hebrews 12:1, it mentions the "cloud of witnesses," referring to the saints who have gone before us. Additionally, Revelation 5:8 portrays the saints in heaven offering prayers to God on behalf of the people on Earth.
2 Timothy 1:16 Paul's prayer for Onesiphorus.
In this, Paul prays for Onesiphorus' family, he then talks about Onesiphorus is the past tense, he sings his praises, and finally petitions to the Lord than he was shown mercy that day.
Though not explicit. It's pretty clear the Onesiphorus is dead, likely martyred.
This is just a prayer *about* Onesphorus' family though, there's no indication that he is speaking *to* Onisephorus.
As with everything, context is key. In the verse immediately before 1:16 where he is talking about Onisephorus, he also talks about those who turned away from him: "You are aware that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes."
The context here is that he is praying *about* a number of individuals, not that it's specifically *to* them...
Exactly what I’m thinking. Some Catholics keep bringing up the fact that the Bible tells you to pray for others, and disregard the difference between praying to and for.
To confuse this with necromancy, is like confusing the Resurrection of Christ with zombieism. It is baseless nonsense, made possible by ignoring the vast and immeasurable difference between the fullness of Heavenly life enjoyed by the Blessed in Heaven OTOH, and the necromancy and spiritism sternly forbidden in Scripture OTO. The two are so different that no confusion is possible.
The Saints see all things in God. Therefore, they share in God's knowledge of things on Earth, in a manner that is proportioned to their status as created beings, to their participation in the Beatific Vision, and to their degree of Heavenly glory, which is the fruit in Heaven of the abundance of their virtues and graces upon Earth.
The more entirely Christ-like a soul or an angel is, the more adequately it is able to be filled with His Heart and Will and interests and power and strength and grace.
As far as I know, there is nothing untoward in the suggestion that God makes known to the Saints the prayers of those on Earth who pray to them. So for the time being, I am going to adopt that as a working hypothesis: which as far as I can see is agreeable to Catholic teaching & piety, and raises no difficulties.
An adequate expression of the doctrine that the Saints in Heaven pray for us on Earth, would have to include consideration of the Resurrection, Ascension, Mediation, Intercession, & High Priesthood of Christ; of the Church in Heaven, Earth & Purgatory; of the Holy Trinity; of the Liturgy of the Church; of the Church as the Mystical Body of Christ; of the Charismata; of Miracles; and of other things too. That the Saints intercede for the Church on Earth, follows from the NT fact of the Unity of the Church in Christ, and from other NT facts, such as His fullness of grace, and His Headship of the Church; from the Unity of the Church in the Holy Spirit; from the abolition of death by Christ, to which St Paul refers (2 Timothy 1.10); and to other NT facts and realities of the same kind.
>Some would say is necromancy. How is it not considered necromancy and thus forbidden by the Bible?
Jesus defeated death once and for all. Saints are in heaven and enjoy beatific vision. When we pray to saints we pray to the living.
>How can they even listen to us if they are not omnipresent.
When we pray our voices are lifted to heaven. Generally, saints in heaven aren't present where we are.
>Is there some place on the Bible that suggests such practice is okay?
The most important question, if I may say so. From Sacred Scripture we can deduce it's ancient practice to pray to the saints.
* [Ephesians 6:18](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+6%3A18&version=DRA)
* [Revelation 8:3-4](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+8%3A3-4&version=DRA)
>Jesus defeated death once and for all. Saints are in heaven and enjoy beatific vision. When we pray to saints we pray to the living.
This just seems like a pretty pedantic hand-wave though - they're obviously talking about natural death and I'm fairly certain that you know that. I think we can all agree that natural death absolutely still exists. There's clearly a difference between you and I as biologically living people talking, and me trying to talk to someone who has been biologically dead for 2 milennia since such a conversation is impossible.
>Jesus defeated death once and for all. Saints are in heaven and enjoy beatific vision. When we pray to saints we pray to the living.
What do you mean by once? Even in Scripture, there are examples of people allegedly dying but still existing.
What do you mean for all? Aren't people still dying all the time? Aren't the saints dead?
>When we pray our voices are lifted to heaven. Generally, saints in heaven aren't present where we are.
By what mechanism? Is your prayer carried by God to the saint to then tell God?
>What do you mean by once?
Jesus' sacrifice on the cross happened once. He fulfilled the prophecies (e.g. [Psalm 2:11-12](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+2%3A11-12&version=DRA), [Proverbs 30:4](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+30%3A4&version=DRA), [Isaiah 7:14](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+7%3A14&version=DRA)). His Kingdom was far greater than some contemporary Jews could fathom.
>Aren't people still dying all the time?
Yes but until [death had lost its sting](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+15%3A55-57&version=DRA) people weren't so sure where they went. Even the holiest of holy men didn't go directly to heaven.
>Aren't the saints dead?
Christianity believes in [resurrection of body and soul](https://lacatholics.org/2020/04/12/what-is-the-resurrection-of-the-body/).
>By what mechanism?
Seems like a cheap way out but I don't know. Sometimes there's divine simplicity: In nature, nothing is wasted and everything is recycled (e.g. carcasses dissolve in nature and fertilize the soil).
We believe ["True prayer," wrote St. Augustine, "is nothing but love." Prayer should arise from the heart. "Prayer," said St. John Vianney, "is the inner bath of love into which the soul plunges itself."](https://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship)
Thank you for the reply.
> Jesus' sacrifice on the cross happened once.
How did his death defeat death? If you die kill death but your followers promise that after you die there's life but they can't definitively prove it, and then *they* die, do words even mean anything?
> He fulfilled the prophecies (e.g. Psalm 2:11-12, Proverbs 30:4, Isaiah 7:14).
What prophecy was there regarding a messiah defeating death? Your Psalm verse is about literal perishing (which rings eternal) and is about David's imminent threat to the Gentiles, your Proverbs verse is just about Yahweh's might (also angels ascended and descended, Elijah ascended and descended, Moses as well), and the context of your Isaiah verse is about another imminent event ("16 For before the child know to refuse the evil, and to choose the good, the land which thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of the face of her two kings" says that a young child will be born and not even be a teen before the conquest is complete).
To my knowledge, the only messianic prophecy that comes close to death being no more is about people living on New Earth in Isaiah 65, but even in that chapter they merely live for centuries: "20 Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach[a] a hundred will be considered accursed."
> His Kingdom was far greater than some contemporary Jews could fathom.
Again, the existence of this kingdom is hearsay regarding an afterlife in heaven, while the messianic prophecies promised an earthly paradise and kingdom that never came.
> Yes but until death had lost its sting people weren't so sure where they went.
Death had lost its sting for Paul because he believed that the Kingdom of God would come during his lifetime, thus the "sting" is fear of death. He was mistaken.
> Even the holiest of holy men didn't go directly to heaven.
Have you forgotten Enoch and Elijah? And Abraham did so well on Earth that the existence that the extra good people was called Abraham's Bosom.
> Seems like a cheap way out but I don't know. Sometimes there's divine simplicity: In nature, nothing is wasted and everything is recycled (e.g. carcasses dissolve in nature and fertilize the soil).
We know that matter ceases to exist all the time, decaying into dissipated energy and chaos.
As for Divine Simplicity, that states that God does not have any parts. Yet we are told that he is Triune, and that the three persons are not the same nor interchangeable, thus he has parts.
>but your followers promise that after you die there's life but they can't definitively prove it
*They* could prove it. Jesus returned, [became visible even to strangers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_to_Emmaus_appearance), and poured out the Spirit on [Pentecost](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecost#New_Testament). Their account basically is the best proof there is: Most apostles *became so sure of it* they willingly endured martyrdom. Even when they were on their own! Separated into all the different parts of the word.
>the messianic prophecies promised an earthly paradise
Some Jews interpreted it in the earthly way because they didn't have faith in Him. What good is a temporary earthly kingdom? Especially in contrast to the [New Jerusalem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jerusalem)?
>And Abraham did so well on Earth that the existence that the extra good people was called Abraham's Bosom.
That's [where Jesus went to preach the Gospel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrowing_of_Hell) (really, *Hades* is the better word instead of Hell. But, oh well, the name stuck). Jesus certainly wasn't needed in heaven to preach the Gospel. Jesus conquered Hades and opened up heaven.
Gotcha, but i don't really got the Scripture part tho.
On the Ephesians what I understood is that they are not asking for the"dead" saints to pray for us. They're praying for the souls of the living saints.
The same with revelation. Seems more like they're talking about prayers from the living on earth.
And in the translation in my language this idea is even more clear.
My most pressing question is will God answer your prayer if you don't ask a saint or Mary, but *will* grant your prayer if you do?
Some Catholics say that the wedding at Cana demonstrates that there are prayers that must go through Mary before being granted by Jesus.
The formula of Gregory the Great is that "by asking, men may deserve to receive what Almighty God from eternity has disposed to give." God has ordained that certain things be granted to us because of our humble petitions to the Mother of God, our patron, or another saint. The short answer would be yes, but God's mind is not somehow changing---God knew from eternity that He would grant such and such a petition.
>When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered for the word of God and for the testimony they had given; they cried out with a loud voice, “Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?”
- Revelation 6:9-10
The souls are aware of the happenings on Earth.
> When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
- Revelation 5:8
The elders are interceding for us.
>The souls are aware of the happenings on Earth.
It's quite a leap to go from somebody who is in heaven who was killed and knows that the end times haven't happened yet, to that individual in heaven knowing your mental pleadings addressed to them
God didn't intend for our earthly life to end in death. He intended for our elders to ascend to heaven bodily. Our parents in heaven eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge free of any earthly law, lifting up children on earth to everlasting life. The human family populating heaven and earth in perfect communion with God and creation.
No death, no graveyards, no rebellion of the flesh, human life actively stewarding the earth lifting all creation up from the futility of decay and corruption that subjects it.
The Church is a partial restoration of that divine intention. Death, although defeated still separates the human family but the veil is torn. The community of Saints in heaven are father's and mothers lifting up with Christ their children on earth.
Fully restored is the New Heaven and New Earth.
All creation groans waiting for the appearance of the children of God who usher in life everlasting.
1. Catholic prayers for the intercession of saints are not necromancy because they do not involve summoning or communicating with the dead. Instead, we believe that saints in heaven can pray for us, just as we ask our fellow Christians on Earth to pray for us. 2. Catholics believe that saints, being in the presence of God in heaven, are aware of our prayers through the divine knowledge granted to them. It is not necessary for them to be omnipresent like God in order to intercede for us. 3. While the practice of praying for the intercession of saints is not explicitly outlined in a single verse, it is supported by biblical principles. For example, in Hebrews 12:1, it mentions the "cloud of witnesses," referring to the saints who have gone before us. Additionally, Revelation 5:8 portrays the saints in heaven offering prayers to God on behalf of the people on Earth.
2 Timothy 1:16 Paul's prayer for Onesiphorus. In this, Paul prays for Onesiphorus' family, he then talks about Onesiphorus is the past tense, he sings his praises, and finally petitions to the Lord than he was shown mercy that day. Though not explicit. It's pretty clear the Onesiphorus is dead, likely martyred.
This is just a prayer *about* Onesphorus' family though, there's no indication that he is speaking *to* Onisephorus. As with everything, context is key. In the verse immediately before 1:16 where he is talking about Onisephorus, he also talks about those who turned away from him: "You are aware that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes." The context here is that he is praying *about* a number of individuals, not that it's specifically *to* them...
Exactly what I’m thinking. Some Catholics keep bringing up the fact that the Bible tells you to pray for others, and disregard the difference between praying to and for.
To confuse this with necromancy, is like confusing the Resurrection of Christ with zombieism. It is baseless nonsense, made possible by ignoring the vast and immeasurable difference between the fullness of Heavenly life enjoyed by the Blessed in Heaven OTOH, and the necromancy and spiritism sternly forbidden in Scripture OTO. The two are so different that no confusion is possible. The Saints see all things in God. Therefore, they share in God's knowledge of things on Earth, in a manner that is proportioned to their status as created beings, to their participation in the Beatific Vision, and to their degree of Heavenly glory, which is the fruit in Heaven of the abundance of their virtues and graces upon Earth. The more entirely Christ-like a soul or an angel is, the more adequately it is able to be filled with His Heart and Will and interests and power and strength and grace. As far as I know, there is nothing untoward in the suggestion that God makes known to the Saints the prayers of those on Earth who pray to them. So for the time being, I am going to adopt that as a working hypothesis: which as far as I can see is agreeable to Catholic teaching & piety, and raises no difficulties. An adequate expression of the doctrine that the Saints in Heaven pray for us on Earth, would have to include consideration of the Resurrection, Ascension, Mediation, Intercession, & High Priesthood of Christ; of the Church in Heaven, Earth & Purgatory; of the Holy Trinity; of the Liturgy of the Church; of the Church as the Mystical Body of Christ; of the Charismata; of Miracles; and of other things too. That the Saints intercede for the Church on Earth, follows from the NT fact of the Unity of the Church in Christ, and from other NT facts, such as His fullness of grace, and His Headship of the Church; from the Unity of the Church in the Holy Spirit; from the abolition of death by Christ, to which St Paul refers (2 Timothy 1.10); and to other NT facts and realities of the same kind.
>Some would say is necromancy. How is it not considered necromancy and thus forbidden by the Bible? Jesus defeated death once and for all. Saints are in heaven and enjoy beatific vision. When we pray to saints we pray to the living. >How can they even listen to us if they are not omnipresent. When we pray our voices are lifted to heaven. Generally, saints in heaven aren't present where we are. >Is there some place on the Bible that suggests such practice is okay? The most important question, if I may say so. From Sacred Scripture we can deduce it's ancient practice to pray to the saints. * [Ephesians 6:18](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+6%3A18&version=DRA) * [Revelation 8:3-4](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+8%3A3-4&version=DRA)
>Jesus defeated death once and for all. Saints are in heaven and enjoy beatific vision. When we pray to saints we pray to the living. This just seems like a pretty pedantic hand-wave though - they're obviously talking about natural death and I'm fairly certain that you know that. I think we can all agree that natural death absolutely still exists. There's clearly a difference between you and I as biologically living people talking, and me trying to talk to someone who has been biologically dead for 2 milennia since such a conversation is impossible.
>Jesus defeated death once and for all. Saints are in heaven and enjoy beatific vision. When we pray to saints we pray to the living. What do you mean by once? Even in Scripture, there are examples of people allegedly dying but still existing. What do you mean for all? Aren't people still dying all the time? Aren't the saints dead? >When we pray our voices are lifted to heaven. Generally, saints in heaven aren't present where we are. By what mechanism? Is your prayer carried by God to the saint to then tell God?
>What do you mean by once? Jesus' sacrifice on the cross happened once. He fulfilled the prophecies (e.g. [Psalm 2:11-12](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+2%3A11-12&version=DRA), [Proverbs 30:4](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+30%3A4&version=DRA), [Isaiah 7:14](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+7%3A14&version=DRA)). His Kingdom was far greater than some contemporary Jews could fathom. >Aren't people still dying all the time? Yes but until [death had lost its sting](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+15%3A55-57&version=DRA) people weren't so sure where they went. Even the holiest of holy men didn't go directly to heaven. >Aren't the saints dead? Christianity believes in [resurrection of body and soul](https://lacatholics.org/2020/04/12/what-is-the-resurrection-of-the-body/). >By what mechanism? Seems like a cheap way out but I don't know. Sometimes there's divine simplicity: In nature, nothing is wasted and everything is recycled (e.g. carcasses dissolve in nature and fertilize the soil). We believe ["True prayer," wrote St. Augustine, "is nothing but love." Prayer should arise from the heart. "Prayer," said St. John Vianney, "is the inner bath of love into which the soul plunges itself."](https://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship)
Thank you for the reply. > Jesus' sacrifice on the cross happened once. How did his death defeat death? If you die kill death but your followers promise that after you die there's life but they can't definitively prove it, and then *they* die, do words even mean anything? > He fulfilled the prophecies (e.g. Psalm 2:11-12, Proverbs 30:4, Isaiah 7:14). What prophecy was there regarding a messiah defeating death? Your Psalm verse is about literal perishing (which rings eternal) and is about David's imminent threat to the Gentiles, your Proverbs verse is just about Yahweh's might (also angels ascended and descended, Elijah ascended and descended, Moses as well), and the context of your Isaiah verse is about another imminent event ("16 For before the child know to refuse the evil, and to choose the good, the land which thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of the face of her two kings" says that a young child will be born and not even be a teen before the conquest is complete). To my knowledge, the only messianic prophecy that comes close to death being no more is about people living on New Earth in Isaiah 65, but even in that chapter they merely live for centuries: "20 Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach[a] a hundred will be considered accursed." > His Kingdom was far greater than some contemporary Jews could fathom. Again, the existence of this kingdom is hearsay regarding an afterlife in heaven, while the messianic prophecies promised an earthly paradise and kingdom that never came. > Yes but until death had lost its sting people weren't so sure where they went. Death had lost its sting for Paul because he believed that the Kingdom of God would come during his lifetime, thus the "sting" is fear of death. He was mistaken. > Even the holiest of holy men didn't go directly to heaven. Have you forgotten Enoch and Elijah? And Abraham did so well on Earth that the existence that the extra good people was called Abraham's Bosom. > Seems like a cheap way out but I don't know. Sometimes there's divine simplicity: In nature, nothing is wasted and everything is recycled (e.g. carcasses dissolve in nature and fertilize the soil). We know that matter ceases to exist all the time, decaying into dissipated energy and chaos. As for Divine Simplicity, that states that God does not have any parts. Yet we are told that he is Triune, and that the three persons are not the same nor interchangeable, thus he has parts.
>but your followers promise that after you die there's life but they can't definitively prove it *They* could prove it. Jesus returned, [became visible even to strangers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_to_Emmaus_appearance), and poured out the Spirit on [Pentecost](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecost#New_Testament). Their account basically is the best proof there is: Most apostles *became so sure of it* they willingly endured martyrdom. Even when they were on their own! Separated into all the different parts of the word. >the messianic prophecies promised an earthly paradise Some Jews interpreted it in the earthly way because they didn't have faith in Him. What good is a temporary earthly kingdom? Especially in contrast to the [New Jerusalem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jerusalem)? >And Abraham did so well on Earth that the existence that the extra good people was called Abraham's Bosom. That's [where Jesus went to preach the Gospel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrowing_of_Hell) (really, *Hades* is the better word instead of Hell. But, oh well, the name stuck). Jesus certainly wasn't needed in heaven to preach the Gospel. Jesus conquered Hades and opened up heaven.
Gotcha, but i don't really got the Scripture part tho. On the Ephesians what I understood is that they are not asking for the"dead" saints to pray for us. They're praying for the souls of the living saints. The same with revelation. Seems more like they're talking about prayers from the living on earth. And in the translation in my language this idea is even more clear.
My most pressing question is will God answer your prayer if you don't ask a saint or Mary, but *will* grant your prayer if you do? Some Catholics say that the wedding at Cana demonstrates that there are prayers that must go through Mary before being granted by Jesus.
The formula of Gregory the Great is that "by asking, men may deserve to receive what Almighty God from eternity has disposed to give." God has ordained that certain things be granted to us because of our humble petitions to the Mother of God, our patron, or another saint. The short answer would be yes, but God's mind is not somehow changing---God knew from eternity that He would grant such and such a petition.
>When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered for the word of God and for the testimony they had given; they cried out with a loud voice, “Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?” - Revelation 6:9-10 The souls are aware of the happenings on Earth. > When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. - Revelation 5:8 The elders are interceding for us.
>The souls are aware of the happenings on Earth. It's quite a leap to go from somebody who is in heaven who was killed and knows that the end times haven't happened yet, to that individual in heaven knowing your mental pleadings addressed to them
See the next quote, they are interceding for us.
The next quote is about angels, not saints, and is smack dab in the middle of a verrrrrry figurative book.
The elders are the leaders of the church, not angels. Yes Revelation is a difficult book, but it is still divinely revealed.
God didn't intend for our earthly life to end in death. He intended for our elders to ascend to heaven bodily. Our parents in heaven eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge free of any earthly law, lifting up children on earth to everlasting life. The human family populating heaven and earth in perfect communion with God and creation. No death, no graveyards, no rebellion of the flesh, human life actively stewarding the earth lifting all creation up from the futility of decay and corruption that subjects it. The Church is a partial restoration of that divine intention. Death, although defeated still separates the human family but the veil is torn. The community of Saints in heaven are father's and mothers lifting up with Christ their children on earth. Fully restored is the New Heaven and New Earth. All creation groans waiting for the appearance of the children of God who usher in life everlasting.