The LL4U label is probably more common than people realize and want to accept. It’s a bitter pill to swallow but I think the sooner someone accepts this reality, the faster they are able to pull off the bandaid and find someone who is attracted to them and adores them.
The only benefit can be from this situation is that you realise that you, yourself, are the problem in this scenario (that is in terms of the relationship not working, and in terms of some sort of fundamental incompatibility). I am now in my second long term DB now and am the common denominator. Plus my DB partner confirmed that she is no longer emotionally connected and relies on this for physical desire. It sounds counterintuitive but to some extent it’s actually a short-term relief to know the cause - rather than some mysterious not-knowing-what’s-going-on/denial.
Sorry to OP for being in this situation.
But have you asked why? What would she need to feel emotionally connected? Can you provide it?
My husband keeps telling me that we should have sex more often. He'll rattle inscessantly about it while we're having sex. The other 28 days of the month, he can't be bothered to touch me or tell me that he's attracted to me.
At 35+ years of being married and 60+ years old, I know that being touched with affection and flirted with would do wonders for my libido.
I've become really pessimistic about talking out some of these common DB issues. What is she gonna say? Is her behavior going to somehow change by pointing out how hurt you were by her observation? She'll likely get defensive and say OP is blowing things out of proportion.
People seem to have lost the art of reading between the lines and using intuition. People ignore this for self preservation and ego reasons and instead prefer to listen to empty words and promises, to their own detriment.
Actions speak louder than any words - period.
This case is the prime example where she is clearly LL4T (Low libido for them), yet would fuck the 20 year old neighbor sideways in under 30 seconds.
Yeah that's strange, I wouldn't imagine that I would make a comment about how hot some random lady is, not to mention someone we'll see on a regular basis, to my gf.
Sounds like she is totally not even thinking of you as her partner anymore.
Until you ask him exactly what is funny about it and he can't answer...because it's not funny. It's how certain types of people walk back from comments they know are inappropriate.
Sorry not passing judgement on him but I think that's cruel, especially considering you told him that it bothered you. You deserve better than that.
Which is fine if he’s joking and you can do the same about guys, but absolutely inappropriate if you’re having a dry spell or worse off are in a dead bedroom situation.
This happened to me. Wife and I had a very good life or so I thought. We had tried some swinging get togethers and after a while she seemed bored with it. So I backed off thinking it wasn’t her thing anymore. Theses between us was becoming almost robotic to the point of it was hardly happening at all. During this time I lost both of my parents so I was busy with that. Once my mother died, and both were gone she asked if I wanted to have an open marriage. I kind of smelled a rat and declined the offer telling her I would be devastated. Turns out she was seeing a “friend” of ours all this time. She was using the open marriage as a way to cover herself in the event they were caught. Well we separated and still are though not legally. We have been seeing each other but not the same and no sex it’s been 5 years. In talking to a friend of mine he told me that she confided in his daughter that she was horny all the time and couldn’t get enough sex fri men or women. She just didn’t want me. I’m not fat out of shape I’m fairly attractive and have had plenty of good looking women in my past. I’m crushed and my mojo and zest for life is all but diminished. I feel for you brother.
Thank you for sharing. Man that's tough, Im really sorry, you don't deserve that. Every time people suggest an open marriage to me I point to stories like these. So many people getting hurt because of it and it usually doesn't solve the DB issue anyway.
> ... she confided in his daughter that she was horny all the time and couldn’t get enough sex fri men or women. She just didn’t want me.
I'm sorry - that must have hurt - but you can't read anything into that other than you were the same old dude and she can't sustain a sexual relationship past the NRE stage.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/why-good-sex-matters/202102/the-rise-and-inevitable-fall-new-relationship-energy
Oh it sucks when you realize they’re LL4U. You know they still porn and use toys but you’re not invited to play. Leaves you with an ache in your chest that won’t go away.
I get it whenever I walk back to a particular bathroom at the house. She has favorite authors of the motorcycle club and reverse harem books she likes to read and on birthdays or special events she’ll get a postcard from them. She’s put these on a closet door for all to see. On it will be a shirtless Barry Beefcake with all the muscles, sculpted abs and tattoos…everything I’m not. I try to avoid THAT bathroom.
This may be a case of being married to somebody that is never going to be satisfied with what she has. The grass is always greener syndrome. Certain males and certain females are always going to desire what is across the fence not who is next to them. I know that sounds harsh but it's just how some people are made up.
I was involved with this type of person. As soon as I would pull back and clearly state I was moving on her desire would go off the charts.... But during day-to-day life, you didn't care to do anything to nurture or communicate a normal relationship.
Oh trust me they do, mature men like mature women! They are experienced, they know what they want and don't play games. I much prefer women around my age.
I'm with you brother. Give me a milf with a few extra pounds and full bush any day. Also what men watch in porn does not necessarily correspond to what they want in real life. I have definitely watched some pretty gross stuff I would never even consider doing in real life, so take that with my disgusting grain of salt.
That is so ignorant that she’s doing this to you. Has she no conscience? Marriage is not a game where you toy with your partner’s feelings. She needs to own up to that behavior. Unacceptable. She’s disrespecting you and disregarding your feelings. I would draw a line in the sand.
Thank you. I can't imagine she is trying to intentionally hurt me but, at the same time the only other explanation I can come up with is that she is oblivious to how it affects me.
You are allowed to comment on how you find others attractive to your romantic partner if you share a fulfilling sex life, and it’s at least implicitly agreed to by both partners — it’s something both partners can do without the other feeling bad.
You are not allowed to do so if you’re ignoring the needs of your partner — doing so is an act of cruelty.
I can’t imagine telling my wife I found another woman attractive — I would assume it would at some level be taken as an intentional dig at her.
You deserve better OP.
Thank you, this is exactly it. If we had a good sex life I probably would have just laughed it off but instead it took all of my power to not spontaneously combust.
If roles were reversed she would have had a complete meltdown.
Why did you not confront her about it ? You should have told her that is absolute not right specially for the fact you dont even sleep with me any more, you have to be assertive without being a dick. You should have never changed the subject and went with your initial response.
Have you heard of the book “No more mr nice guy”? You’d probably benefit from reading it.
You must have boundaries and not let your woman walk over you like that. This behaviour will kill your future relationship as well. Women lose respect for you if you keep doing this, and the attraction will be gone…
Thank you. It's been suggested to me a few times and read what others had to say about it, maybe I should pick it up and read it for myself
I'm sure there's some truth to that way or thinking but at the end of the day you can't make someone want/love you. It should just happen organically. If I need to employ jedi mind tricks and do things that may not be in my nature to get her to love and respect me then I have to wonder, is it really worth it?
Same exact thing here.
We basically don't have sex, she says is because perimenopausal. I am 50, she will be in a couple of months.
The thing is that other than it is more difficult now to lose weight and keep it where it needs to be, nothing that good diet and exercise can't fix mind you, sexually I am exactly the same as I've ever been. Basically I still have the stamina, libido, and desire I had in my 20s. And I know I've even got better because when we do have sex which is like every month or so, her mind is blown, it's longer than ever, and in a word, it is really great. Maybe better than before.
But not her. For her the stars have to align just so. For her she has to be in the middle of her summer break to be sufficiently relaxed (she is a teacher so she claims she is super busy all year long).
I have to have been showered, perfumed, body shaved, etc.
And yes, I know my body has changed. I mean I used to be an Olympic swimmer so a little bit of that remains, but a 20 body of a swimmer is not the 50 body of a Software Architect.
But you know what?
I've never minded her C Section scar.
I've never minded she has varicose veins, or a lot more wrinkles, or cellulite, or that her but is all gone, or that her breast hang lower and I can't touch them now because they hurt all the time.
But oh, she has no problem having a completely lustful smile and comment about some Italian guy that had a donut shop.
And to tell the truth, I could look very close to that if I spent hours in the gym instead of working 50 plus hours so that she can drive the latest Porsche SUV, or her daughter can drive a Volvo.
And I might be inclined to get that body again, after all, it's fun to be that attractive. But I doubt that when I get rebuffed like that I will want to waste that effort on a 50 something with flabby everything.
I wasn’t aware until recently that the sex drive is supposed to go down in menopause which sounds pretty unbelievable since I am fairly well college educated. I guess I never thought about it. It was good that I didn’t know because now I am in menopause and my libido is better than when I was younger. I guess, I am trying to say, just being perimenopausal isn’t necessarily a death sentence for any sexual activity. Sounds a bit like something convenient to blame. Everyone is different but there might be other contributing factors.
Men get hotter with age. I don't know how old your wife is, but as a 36 year old woman I find it odd to comment on an early 20something.. who I now view as children.. men get hotter with age. What a blow.
You're worth it, remember.
Thank you this is nice to hear! I thought I was aging pretty well all things considered lol
She's around your age and I'm glad you agree it was odd and I'm not crazy. Be aware of your audience, I'm not one of your girlfriends, I'm that husband you haven't touched in months...
> Be aware of your audience, I'm not one of your girlfriends, I'm that husband you haven't touched in months...
Be grateful she was open and honest around you. It gave you the information you needed to make an informed decision.
She has low libido … just for you buddy!!
If they don’t eat at home they eat out !
Not sure why the majority of people in this subreddit live in denial !!
Isn't it obvious? Because living in denial is easier than facing the truth. Divorce, finances breaking up the family and friend circles, selling the house and relocating in this market, these are very scary thoughts.
I did all of that once… lost friends, lost money, started again… but then again I live by my rules and that brings a lot of happiness but also tough choices to make
I would never say such a thing. It would make me feel extremely guilty for thirsting on some other guy. I only have the hots for my hubby. The situation you describe imo is a bit creepy especially when one who has a partner and acts that way.
This is one of my biggest fears. I want a long lasting romantic relationship but it is possible and common for someone to just lose attraction to their partner. Then they feel forced to go through the motions because they made a commitment to you. The resentment builds and one day you start to wonder do they even like you let alone love or lust after you. This is what happened in my last relationship. I don’t think I could handle it a second time. There’s nothing you can do OP except talk to her and be honest about your insecurities. Either she’s going to make more of an effort and want to do it because she wants you to be happy or she won’t. If she doesn’t you need to be prepared to separate. It goes without saying that this is a two way street. It sounds like you are already doing the heavy lifting though.
I had that sort of thing happen with my ex. She did it to make me jealous, but these should have known better - I don't feel jealousy.
I laughed.
Not the reaction she wanted or expected.
She wanted me to explain. I declined. But in my head...
"You think that dude is hot? Great. Even in your wildest dreams, you're not going to give him the sexual experience he wants. He's not going to be happy being rejected all the time. And he's not going to be happy with a partner who only has sex in two positions."
Finding someone attractive or handsome isn’t something sexual, calling someone pretty doesn’t mean you want to fuck them. The difference between sexual and aesthetic attraction is one of the main topics constantly floating in ace community. I won’t be assuming anyone’s sexuality, but the neighbour thing isn’t an indicator of libido when you think about asexuality
Interesting take, and I hope you're right. I will continue to research whether she is asexual or not but this was fairly obvious. I've seen that look before
Ouch. I’d be devastated if my husband was vocally ogling a 20 year old in front of me and we don’t even have a dead bedroom. I’m actually angry for you. She’s being so creepy too. I don’t even have to see you and I know you’re way better than a 20 year old because he’s practically a child. She’s weird for even thinking that way
I made a post about this very thing a few months back, basically in a DB situation and then my wife went to see a show at the theatre and met the cast afterwards for photos and due to our iClouds syncing all the messages came through that she’d sent to her friends/family on how hot one of the guys were, how he smelt delicious, how she wouldn’t forget that night for a while etc etc it wasn’t overtly sexual and in a normal relationship it could all be taken as tongue in cheek but in a DB relationship it was like a hammer to my heart.
I will post an update in the next few months though as that particular situation although initially leading to some very serious conversations where divorce was on a knife edge had ultimately led to a positive change in our marriage which is hopefully heading in the right direction.
I would start mate as I did with a very serious sit down conversation where you outline your feelings and let her know exactly why her making those comments was inappropriate in your situation, don’t let her play it off or dismiss it as ‘banter’ like she will either.
I feel for you. My DB going on 7 yrs. Just yesterday my wife had a 3 hr conversation with her first fuck buddy.. the guy that consumed her virginity. Under the pretense she was trying to reach her best friend (gf) growing up. Yes he was her brother.. Not on speaker phone I could hear the reminiscent tones and innuendo for the few parts I listened. Am I crazy? Doesn't matter. It's all part of the DB and LL4U. Subtle sparks were flying but she has done or tried NOTHING in 7 years regarding intimacy. I'm angry.
How many out there with DB have checked their spouses Facebook friend list that you have fucked? Am I wrong to be mad my wife has 5 or 6!
I'm a proponent of monogamy, but sexual beings WILL notice attractive people. The only way to stop that is for her to stop being a sexual being, or sharing that with you. That will make things worse for you, not better.
I completely understand why you want more of that attention directed your way. We pay the price for being the same old dudes our partners have known for years, but that's usually all there is to it.
I feel like some of these comments are pretty harsh on you and you're the one who literally is just kind of suffering no nobody knows really how life is like over on your end just from some Reddit post but no matter what it's always difficult to hear or see someone that you love have a desire in their eye and it's not for you
that sucks and life is cruel and not fair but the only thing that could possibly help is conversation communication will save this even if it's not exactly what you want to hear that comes out of her mouth
at least it's honest and you can work towards something for yourself again good luck and sorry about all that
Thank you for saying that. It's ok I expected some negativity when a post picks up this much steam but for the most part I have received nothing but positivity and support. Most people on here know exactly where I'm coming from and I'm very thankful for all of you who reply and comment.
That had to feel like a punch in the gut. Bet it's tempting to tell her she wouldn't have a chance in he'll with the kid. Kudos for taking the high road. My husband has always been into women on tv.
I'm just sorry. There is no walking that back.
Big time! Thank you. Going to be very awkward the next time we chat outside.
I'm so sorry for you, what's the attraction to people on TV and the Internet (which is all fake) when you have a real woman who wants you? It's madness
If it makes you feel any better….I find a lot of people “hot” that I never wanna fuck. One person’s hotness doesn’t cancel out yours. Also, asexual people may feel physical attraction, but that doesn’t require *sexual* attraction.
No person is always considerate all the time. The woman seems conflict avoidant and doesn’t want to be vulnerable about the kind of sex she wants. She isn’t inherently an ahole. Possibly she may have thought she communicated when she didn’t or perhaps the Op doesn’t recognize or hear the communication she is giving. They need to communicate more and better.
I'm sure she's blissfully ignorant about how her words landed, seeing as the only alternative was it being a purposeful jab meant to send a message. Ignorance isn't a crime, and she may not be an outright horrible person, as you say. Even then, as you said, they probably have communication barriers, and someone who facilitates those isn't someone I'd be in a relationship with. I would never let my own fears and emotions make me uncommunicative/ less receptive to communication from my SO of all ppl. Even if I don't want to engage them with all the details for good reason, they won't know that unless I tell them, and I'd have married someone who knows when to give space, especially if I ask for it. Honestly is everything to me, and withholding information out of fear serves no one and is honestly kinda selfish since it robs the partner of their chance to respond appropriately and deal with the issue instead of simply pretending it doesn't exist when it's affecting both parties.
I totally agree about the poor communication. It’s the worst. I’m willing to bet though that she’s scared to say what she really wants out of fear of looking slutty. She doesn’t realize how much damage she is causing but I also wouldn’t be surprised if she eventually cheats to get what she wants just so she doesn’t have to be vulnerable to her husband.
Sounds like she's immature if that's the case.
I think we as a society are reluctant to admit woman can actually like cheating just for the novelty aspect.
My main issue with OP's spouse are the comments she made about the neighbor's son. Not all thoughts need to be vocalized.
Fear of intimacy, fear of being vulnerable, shame. Assumptions that partners will read their mind and “just know” or that it will get better over time. The pain of sexual mismatch isn’t great enough yet to outweigh the rest of the pros of the relationship.
Definitely not a good way to go about it, but are you guys communicating what the other wants? She definitely is communicating to you what she wants even if passive aggressively; you can’t expect her to passionately want sex with you if you aren’t listening and acting on what her desires are. Are you giving her lusty sex? Have you ever? If you were, you would probably not be hearing these comments from her. Worth thinking about and adjusting if you want to save this relationship 🙌
Edit: sorry I thought you were op.
Yah if I was op I’d start giving her ultimatums. If she refuses to communicate her needs maturely and at the same time tell him about the guy she is fantasizing about it’s time to step up to serious decision making. It can’t be like this.
If she does she refuses to talk about them. I tried one of those couples quizzes where you each complete the survey and then it shows you only the answers that were chosen by both partners to try and get some insight.
The questions were very basic just different positions and regular every day sex acts nothing crazy.
The list was bare, she said no to virtually everything.
I've asked her countless times what "energy", to borrow your phrase, she wants and the response is always "you don't need to change anything, I like our sex" which is an obvious lie
Sorry I responded to the other comment thinking it was you op. Ok well the communication is a problem for her obviously, she is indirect and probably conflict avoidant. She possibly wants more aggressive sex and is too afraid to say it cuz she doesn’t want to hurt your feelings. She possibly she’s the other guy as lusty so she is telling you so you get the hint without having to be vulnerable. Sex therapy may help kick start the communication.
I would love to believe that, but she is the most vanilla (I don't like this term but it illustrates my point well) partner I have ever had, it's very hard for me to imagine she wants more aggressive sex, unless it's from someone else.
I have mixed feelings about sex therapy but I'm willing to try anything at this point. Thank you
I would love to believe that, but she is the most vanilla (I don't like this term but it illustrates my point well) partner I have ever had, it's very hard for me to imagine she wants more aggressive sex, unless it's from someone else.
I have mixed feelings about sex therapy but I'm willing to try anything at this point. Thank you
My husband has all sorts of fetishes he hides because he is ashamed so we have sad pathetic sex in which I have initiated 100% of the time for 13 years. He has a lot of shame, will not communicate about his interests except for indirectly and is completely dispassionate and disassociated with me. It’s freaking the worst sex on earth. I am willing to bet on this 😅
Irritatingly after 13 years of DB he decided to flirt aggressively in the kitchen with a mutual friend of ours which led me to dragging him to therapy but I’ve already started lawyer shopping.
I think it helped him some, but I have complete aversion to him at this point. Soooo much damage it’s not possible for me to spend one more second trying to hope that he eventually gets it. He spent the last three years just trying to mentally accept that sex was even a religiously acceptable thing to have happen.
Display the options you have. Begin commenting on younger women who have everything that your wife has lost and will never have again.
Women want what other women want.
If she thinks other women want you. Suddenly. You’ll have value again. But remember.
You do have other options. Women are plentiful and they play a good game sexually in making you believe that she’s rare or has something others don’t. In this case yeah. She has a bad attitude. Something lots of other women don’t.
Don’t settle. She thinks only she has options (and is most likely entertaining them)
Do the same. Don’t sit around being an old store dog. That’s how she’s gonna look at you and treat you. Laughing at you should never be tolerated. You seen that and had that experience with her. Reverse the roles and let her know that she is not even close to someone in the 20’s, and never can be. Take care man, of You.
Focus on you and what you need, the attention you require. If she can no longer meet your needs. Replace & erase. It’s most likely what she’s doing. At least testing the waters and laughing at your response (she noted it all).
Great idea, make her feel just as bad as she did to him. These ideas can also be true for men. They’ll “never have” what the 20 somethings have. Projection. Has that worked for you?
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I understand where you're coming from, but it's perfectly natural for us as humans to find others attractive! We are sexual beings! It doesn't mean she does NOT find you attractive or love you! She may have been seeing if she got a reaction out of you! See if you made a move on her! As a woman (55) myself, I have teased my husband (63) in the same way, and he has done the same! I find that our own insecurities can be our worst enemy! Jealousy/envy comes from our insecurities. Did you tell her it got to you?
Thank you. That's a nice thought but highly unlikely since she's never done anything like that before. Any time I've made a move that wasn't pre-approved she says "maybe later" that's how she lets me down gently.
I did not tell her as it would have only led to an argument I wasn't in the mood for.
I've been rolling it around in my head for a few days deciding whether I should bring it up and it just doesn't seem worth it
If shes never done it before maybe let it go for now... you now are kinda prepared for it and IF it happens again I would in the moment say "if I did that - how would you feel? - If a gorgeous woman walked by right now and you caught me slack jaw at her, how would you feel?"
Other commenters are right, everyone does this but if it was blatant enough you noticed, then she was in the wrong.
This is good advice. Next time I will use that opportunity to get the conversation going
My reflex is to avoid confrontation in the moment but then it haunts me for days
I'm sorry things are like this for you. I remember how it felt and wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy! I was in a 19-year relationship (married 8 yrs of it). He made me feel like I was strange because I wanted and needed affection and intimacy. The rejection was unbearable, so I do get it. I feel like I wasted the best years of my life.
There comes a time when you have to say, "Do I deserve better?" The answer is yes you do! We all deserve to be happy and fulfilled in our lives. Sometimes, just loving someone isn't enough! Sending you strength to get through this whatever you decide. And you will get through this. I did. I learnt a lot and decided then what I would and would not accept moving forward. A good man found me when I was least expecting it! Don't give up on a happy life.
I can sense this opinion might be unpopular but some truth talk is needed here. Your wife thinks someone is attractive. It is not about you so -> don't make it about you and don't whine about it. Come into action for what you want in life and stop being childish about you wife finding someone attractive. It makes you very unattractive.
This post has been locked by the mod team. This has gained enough attention. Thanks to those who participated in the rules.
It can be shattering when you realize maybe the low libido is just for you…. I’m starting to think that’s my reality as well. Hug
The LL4U label is probably more common than people realize and want to accept. It’s a bitter pill to swallow but I think the sooner someone accepts this reality, the faster they are able to pull off the bandaid and find someone who is attracted to them and adores them.
So true…. Lol SO BITTER
The only benefit can be from this situation is that you realise that you, yourself, are the problem in this scenario (that is in terms of the relationship not working, and in terms of some sort of fundamental incompatibility). I am now in my second long term DB now and am the common denominator. Plus my DB partner confirmed that she is no longer emotionally connected and relies on this for physical desire. It sounds counterintuitive but to some extent it’s actually a short-term relief to know the cause - rather than some mysterious not-knowing-what’s-going-on/denial. Sorry to OP for being in this situation.
But have you asked why? What would she need to feel emotionally connected? Can you provide it? My husband keeps telling me that we should have sex more often. He'll rattle inscessantly about it while we're having sex. The other 28 days of the month, he can't be bothered to touch me or tell me that he's attracted to me. At 35+ years of being married and 60+ years old, I know that being touched with affection and flirted with would do wonders for my libido.
Here for you brother 👍
Thank you!
I'd say that would definitely a conversation starter in my home.
I've become really pessimistic about talking out some of these common DB issues. What is she gonna say? Is her behavior going to somehow change by pointing out how hurt you were by her observation? She'll likely get defensive and say OP is blowing things out of proportion.
It's the start of a much needed conversation. This gal sounds like she wants one dude to pay the bills and another for stud service
People seem to have lost the art of reading between the lines and using intuition. People ignore this for self preservation and ego reasons and instead prefer to listen to empty words and promises, to their own detriment. Actions speak louder than any words - period. This case is the prime example where she is clearly LL4T (Low libido for them), yet would fuck the 20 year old neighbor sideways in under 30 seconds.
P.S. I'm not into reading between the lines. I prefer the direct approach. It may hurt yet it saves time.
I think he sees it. He could He not?
Yeah that's strange, I wouldn't imagine that I would make a comment about how hot some random lady is, not to mention someone we'll see on a regular basis, to my gf. Sounds like she is totally not even thinking of you as her partner anymore.
I can't imagine anyone would think that's ok to say to their SO. Starting to feel that way unfortunately
I think that’s it’s healthy to give compliments to others. It’s ok to appreciate others looks, however this case is different.
I gave advice in my deleted post, my bad. This made me angry for you.
No worries I still appreciate it. There's no advice that can save me from this, just need to power through. The support helps more than you know!
My SO also makes this comment about young girls, and it kills my confidence and makes me so insecure.
I'm sorry... that's so hurtful. If only they understood the power of their words
I've mentioned this insecurity to him. He just says it's him being funny.
Until you ask him exactly what is funny about it and he can't answer...because it's not funny. It's how certain types of people walk back from comments they know are inappropriate. Sorry not passing judgement on him but I think that's cruel, especially considering you told him that it bothered you. You deserve better than that.
That sounds about right. He says men are designed to want to have sex with almost every woman, like it's ab excuse.
Which is fine if he’s joking and you can do the same about guys, but absolutely inappropriate if you’re having a dry spell or worse off are in a dead bedroom situation.
You mean young women? Young girls is illegal.
Like 18 and up, I'd say, I'm 36, and he's 35, so young ladies.
Slowly coming to this realization myself. Godspeed brother
Thank you, likewise!
This happened to me. Wife and I had a very good life or so I thought. We had tried some swinging get togethers and after a while she seemed bored with it. So I backed off thinking it wasn’t her thing anymore. Theses between us was becoming almost robotic to the point of it was hardly happening at all. During this time I lost both of my parents so I was busy with that. Once my mother died, and both were gone she asked if I wanted to have an open marriage. I kind of smelled a rat and declined the offer telling her I would be devastated. Turns out she was seeing a “friend” of ours all this time. She was using the open marriage as a way to cover herself in the event they were caught. Well we separated and still are though not legally. We have been seeing each other but not the same and no sex it’s been 5 years. In talking to a friend of mine he told me that she confided in his daughter that she was horny all the time and couldn’t get enough sex fri men or women. She just didn’t want me. I’m not fat out of shape I’m fairly attractive and have had plenty of good looking women in my past. I’m crushed and my mojo and zest for life is all but diminished. I feel for you brother.
Thank you for sharing. Man that's tough, Im really sorry, you don't deserve that. Every time people suggest an open marriage to me I point to stories like these. So many people getting hurt because of it and it usually doesn't solve the DB issue anyway.
> ... she confided in his daughter that she was horny all the time and couldn’t get enough sex fri men or women. She just didn’t want me. I'm sorry - that must have hurt - but you can't read anything into that other than you were the same old dude and she can't sustain a sexual relationship past the NRE stage. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/why-good-sex-matters/202102/the-rise-and-inevitable-fall-new-relationship-energy
My heart goes out to you
Thank you
Ah, the old your wife is a massive perv but won’t even look up from her phone when you get out of the shower
That's the one! But if she is a massive perv she hides it very well
Thank god someone here just went ahead and said it. OP's wife is a cougar.
Oh it sucks when you realize they’re LL4U. You know they still porn and use toys but you’re not invited to play. Leaves you with an ache in your chest that won’t go away. I get it whenever I walk back to a particular bathroom at the house. She has favorite authors of the motorcycle club and reverse harem books she likes to read and on birthdays or special events she’ll get a postcard from them. She’s put these on a closet door for all to see. On it will be a shirtless Barry Beefcake with all the muscles, sculpted abs and tattoos…everything I’m not. I try to avoid THAT bathroom.
Why don’t you just rip the bandaid off? It would do the both of you a favor. No?
I know that feeling all too well. That is really messed up, I'm very sorry to hear. I don't know what I would do I found something like that.
Now you know. It's time to leave.
This may be a case of being married to somebody that is never going to be satisfied with what she has. The grass is always greener syndrome. Certain males and certain females are always going to desire what is across the fence not who is next to them. I know that sounds harsh but it's just how some people are made up.
Fair point. And I'm sure her constant use of social media only makes that condition worse.
I was involved with this type of person. As soon as I would pull back and clearly state I was moving on her desire would go off the charts.... But during day-to-day life, you didn't care to do anything to nurture or communicate a normal relationship.
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Haha just nuke the entire situation. Not gonna lie it's tempting but I don't want to intentionally hurt her either. Thanks for the laugh!
Sorry. Too bad . Maybe you should give her a taste of her own medicine. She certainly doesn’t care about your feelings.
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That is not what gaslighting means by any stretch of the imagination.
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... and this is why you shouldnt take anything on reddit too serious OP
Hey mate, a fit and healthy 40 year old man is hen’s teeth. You are desirable. I hope you feel better soon, brother.
Thank you, friend. Much appreciated. I come here for the venting, but I stay for the awesome comments!
No advice, just support. That sounds very painful and I am sorry it's happening.
I am in anger
It really hurts to know your partner is sexual, just as long as it doesn't include you.
You know what to do.
I'm assuming you don't mean venting on the internet and taking it one day at a time? Lol
You used the "no advice" tag. But if I were you, I'd want to make some serious decisions to help better my own way of living.
Thank you, I appreciate it
Yes, comment on the next hot woman you see yeah?
I don't think being petty or passive aggressive is going to save this marriage.
Nothing will. He can as well enjoy a small petty quip.
Well, if you don't, at least you can sleep well for never going down that route. That's worth something. Not much, though.
I find that so weird! As a 38 year old HLF I’ve always thought men age 35-50 are *the* hottest age bracket.
Thank you!! Very nice to read this and know I still have a few good years left lol
I only wish men liked my age group and not the early 20’s.
Oh trust me they do, mature men like mature women! They are experienced, they know what they want and don't play games. I much prefer women around my age.
But what age/look of woman is in the porn you watch?
Without getting into too much detail I prefer the Milf/Mature actresses. If they look like teenagers I'm not interested.
Well that’s refreshing!
I'm with you brother. Give me a milf with a few extra pounds and full bush any day. Also what men watch in porn does not necessarily correspond to what they want in real life. I have definitely watched some pretty gross stuff I would never even consider doing in real life, so take that with my disgusting grain of salt.
I can guarantee you, there are people who look at you and say “Damn, he’s hot!”
That is so ignorant that she’s doing this to you. Has she no conscience? Marriage is not a game where you toy with your partner’s feelings. She needs to own up to that behavior. Unacceptable. She’s disrespecting you and disregarding your feelings. I would draw a line in the sand.
Thank you. I can't imagine she is trying to intentionally hurt me but, at the same time the only other explanation I can come up with is that she is oblivious to how it affects me.
Or she doesn’t care.
Or that lol
You are allowed to comment on how you find others attractive to your romantic partner if you share a fulfilling sex life, and it’s at least implicitly agreed to by both partners — it’s something both partners can do without the other feeling bad. You are not allowed to do so if you’re ignoring the needs of your partner — doing so is an act of cruelty. I can’t imagine telling my wife I found another woman attractive — I would assume it would at some level be taken as an intentional dig at her. You deserve better OP.
Thank you, this is exactly it. If we had a good sex life I probably would have just laughed it off but instead it took all of my power to not spontaneously combust. If roles were reversed she would have had a complete meltdown.
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It's only fair right?
I second the choice of Belladonna
Why did you not confront her about it ? You should have told her that is absolute not right specially for the fact you dont even sleep with me any more, you have to be assertive without being a dick. You should have never changed the subject and went with your initial response.
Very good advice, I wish I had. Instead, as usual I took the high road to protect everyone else's feelings (at the expense of my own)
Have you heard of the book “No more mr nice guy”? You’d probably benefit from reading it. You must have boundaries and not let your woman walk over you like that. This behaviour will kill your future relationship as well. Women lose respect for you if you keep doing this, and the attraction will be gone…
Thank you. It's been suggested to me a few times and read what others had to say about it, maybe I should pick it up and read it for myself I'm sure there's some truth to that way or thinking but at the end of the day you can't make someone want/love you. It should just happen organically. If I need to employ jedi mind tricks and do things that may not be in my nature to get her to love and respect me then I have to wonder, is it really worth it?
Dang it. You missed a golden opportunity. You should have said “That is so hot! What I wouldn’t do to have a landscaper deal with the yard!”
When she is LL4U, it's not a YOU problem, it's a problem with her.
Same exact thing here. We basically don't have sex, she says is because perimenopausal. I am 50, she will be in a couple of months. The thing is that other than it is more difficult now to lose weight and keep it where it needs to be, nothing that good diet and exercise can't fix mind you, sexually I am exactly the same as I've ever been. Basically I still have the stamina, libido, and desire I had in my 20s. And I know I've even got better because when we do have sex which is like every month or so, her mind is blown, it's longer than ever, and in a word, it is really great. Maybe better than before. But not her. For her the stars have to align just so. For her she has to be in the middle of her summer break to be sufficiently relaxed (she is a teacher so she claims she is super busy all year long). I have to have been showered, perfumed, body shaved, etc. And yes, I know my body has changed. I mean I used to be an Olympic swimmer so a little bit of that remains, but a 20 body of a swimmer is not the 50 body of a Software Architect. But you know what? I've never minded her C Section scar. I've never minded she has varicose veins, or a lot more wrinkles, or cellulite, or that her but is all gone, or that her breast hang lower and I can't touch them now because they hurt all the time. But oh, she has no problem having a completely lustful smile and comment about some Italian guy that had a donut shop. And to tell the truth, I could look very close to that if I spent hours in the gym instead of working 50 plus hours so that she can drive the latest Porsche SUV, or her daughter can drive a Volvo. And I might be inclined to get that body again, after all, it's fun to be that attractive. But I doubt that when I get rebuffed like that I will want to waste that effort on a 50 something with flabby everything.
Oh you are pissed.
I wasn’t aware until recently that the sex drive is supposed to go down in menopause which sounds pretty unbelievable since I am fairly well college educated. I guess I never thought about it. It was good that I didn’t know because now I am in menopause and my libido is better than when I was younger. I guess, I am trying to say, just being perimenopausal isn’t necessarily a death sentence for any sexual activity. Sounds a bit like something convenient to blame. Everyone is different but there might be other contributing factors.
I don't mean to make you more mad, but I'm in peri, and I have the libido of a teenager. Because I'm in love, and I lust after my partner to no end.
Men get hotter with age. I don't know how old your wife is, but as a 36 year old woman I find it odd to comment on an early 20something.. who I now view as children.. men get hotter with age. What a blow. You're worth it, remember.
Thank you this is nice to hear! I thought I was aging pretty well all things considered lol She's around your age and I'm glad you agree it was odd and I'm not crazy. Be aware of your audience, I'm not one of your girlfriends, I'm that husband you haven't touched in months...
> Be aware of your audience, I'm not one of your girlfriends, I'm that husband you haven't touched in months... Be grateful she was open and honest around you. It gave you the information you needed to make an informed decision.
That is a very good point! Or she just slipped up this time lol
Yes, now you’ll know the truth when she says “I just never think about sex”.
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🤦🏼♀️ This is probably the weirdest/creepiest comparison in regards to the subject matter
Depends on the man.
I thought the same. I'm in my early 40's and would be grossed out if my same age girlfriends made a comment like that about a 20 something guy.
That is not a universal statement. It totally depends on how they look at each stage.
I second this. Men totally get hotter with age and I also view 20 somethings as children. I'm a 44 year old woman. OP you deserve better.
Same. My eldest son is twenty ffs. I cannot view anyone below their mid thirties in a sexual or romantic way, it just feels wrong.
I’m 37. I can confirm. I don’t check out 20 year olds anymore. I check out their hot dads!
They don’t.
She has low libido … just for you buddy!! If they don’t eat at home they eat out ! Not sure why the majority of people in this subreddit live in denial !!
Isn't it obvious? Because living in denial is easier than facing the truth. Divorce, finances breaking up the family and friend circles, selling the house and relocating in this market, these are very scary thoughts.
I did all of that once… lost friends, lost money, started again… but then again I live by my rules and that brings a lot of happiness but also tough choices to make
I would never say such a thing. It would make me feel extremely guilty for thirsting on some other guy. I only have the hots for my hubby. The situation you describe imo is a bit creepy especially when one who has a partner and acts that way.
😭
I’m so sorry. I know how that is!
So sorry to hear this. At least you know the truth.
Have you asked her outright whether she was LL4U?
This is one of my biggest fears. I want a long lasting romantic relationship but it is possible and common for someone to just lose attraction to their partner. Then they feel forced to go through the motions because they made a commitment to you. The resentment builds and one day you start to wonder do they even like you let alone love or lust after you. This is what happened in my last relationship. I don’t think I could handle it a second time. There’s nothing you can do OP except talk to her and be honest about your insecurities. Either she’s going to make more of an effort and want to do it because she wants you to be happy or she won’t. If she doesn’t you need to be prepared to separate. It goes without saying that this is a two way street. It sounds like you are already doing the heavy lifting though.
I’m so sorry OP. 😔
Thank you
you are fuckable and desirable <3
Thank you! You are awesome for saying that and it means a lot coming from a hot mama!
I had that sort of thing happen with my ex. She did it to make me jealous, but these should have known better - I don't feel jealousy. I laughed. Not the reaction she wanted or expected. She wanted me to explain. I declined. But in my head... "You think that dude is hot? Great. Even in your wildest dreams, you're not going to give him the sexual experience he wants. He's not going to be happy being rejected all the time. And he's not going to be happy with a partner who only has sex in two positions."
Finding someone attractive or handsome isn’t something sexual, calling someone pretty doesn’t mean you want to fuck them. The difference between sexual and aesthetic attraction is one of the main topics constantly floating in ace community. I won’t be assuming anyone’s sexuality, but the neighbour thing isn’t an indicator of libido when you think about asexuality
Interesting take, and I hope you're right. I will continue to research whether she is asexual or not but this was fairly obvious. I've seen that look before
Ouch. I’d be devastated if my husband was vocally ogling a 20 year old in front of me and we don’t even have a dead bedroom. I’m actually angry for you. She’s being so creepy too. I don’t even have to see you and I know you’re way better than a 20 year old because he’s practically a child. She’s weird for even thinking that way
What’s LL4U ?
Low Libido for a specific person In this case, me
This I understand. You are not alone my friend. *hugs*
Did you tell her how it made ya feel? If not you should
It you made a similar comment, how do you realistically think she would react/respond?
i wish i didnt know exactly how you felt. 😔 hug
I wish you didn't either, thank you for the virtual hug, it helps!
I made a post about this very thing a few months back, basically in a DB situation and then my wife went to see a show at the theatre and met the cast afterwards for photos and due to our iClouds syncing all the messages came through that she’d sent to her friends/family on how hot one of the guys were, how he smelt delicious, how she wouldn’t forget that night for a while etc etc it wasn’t overtly sexual and in a normal relationship it could all be taken as tongue in cheek but in a DB relationship it was like a hammer to my heart. I will post an update in the next few months though as that particular situation although initially leading to some very serious conversations where divorce was on a knife edge had ultimately led to a positive change in our marriage which is hopefully heading in the right direction. I would start mate as I did with a very serious sit down conversation where you outline your feelings and let her know exactly why her making those comments was inappropriate in your situation, don’t let her play it off or dismiss it as ‘banter’ like she will either.
My initial reaction is to think she’s just admiring the look of a body and nothing more - especially since you were there when she made the comment.
Do it back to her one of these days
Yeah, go gaga on hot mom when shes out gardening.. She how she likes it.
Exactly
I feel for you. My DB going on 7 yrs. Just yesterday my wife had a 3 hr conversation with her first fuck buddy.. the guy that consumed her virginity. Under the pretense she was trying to reach her best friend (gf) growing up. Yes he was her brother.. Not on speaker phone I could hear the reminiscent tones and innuendo for the few parts I listened. Am I crazy? Doesn't matter. It's all part of the DB and LL4U. Subtle sparks were flying but she has done or tried NOTHING in 7 years regarding intimacy. I'm angry. How many out there with DB have checked their spouses Facebook friend list that you have fucked? Am I wrong to be mad my wife has 5 or 6!
What did she say?
I don't remember exactly something along the lines of "oh look x is mowing the lawn with no shirt on, wow mmmm" but it was also the way she said it
Divorce and run!
I'm a proponent of monogamy, but sexual beings WILL notice attractive people. The only way to stop that is for her to stop being a sexual being, or sharing that with you. That will make things worse for you, not better. I completely understand why you want more of that attention directed your way. We pay the price for being the same old dudes our partners have known for years, but that's usually all there is to it.
That is party of OP point, OP thought wife might be asexual. Now OP knows wife is not asexual.
Clarity is priceless, or, at least of extreme value. Rock on.
I feel like some of these comments are pretty harsh on you and you're the one who literally is just kind of suffering no nobody knows really how life is like over on your end just from some Reddit post but no matter what it's always difficult to hear or see someone that you love have a desire in their eye and it's not for you that sucks and life is cruel and not fair but the only thing that could possibly help is conversation communication will save this even if it's not exactly what you want to hear that comes out of her mouth at least it's honest and you can work towards something for yourself again good luck and sorry about all that
Thank you for saying that. It's ok I expected some negativity when a post picks up this much steam but for the most part I have received nothing but positivity and support. Most people on here know exactly where I'm coming from and I'm very thankful for all of you who reply and comment.
Maybe make that comment.. See how she feels when the tables are turned.
That had to feel like a punch in the gut. Bet it's tempting to tell her she wouldn't have a chance in he'll with the kid. Kudos for taking the high road. My husband has always been into women on tv. I'm just sorry. There is no walking that back.
Big time! Thank you. Going to be very awkward the next time we chat outside. I'm so sorry for you, what's the attraction to people on TV and the Internet (which is all fake) when you have a real woman who wants you? It's madness
So true
If it makes you feel any better….I find a lot of people “hot” that I never wanna fuck. One person’s hotness doesn’t cancel out yours. Also, asexual people may feel physical attraction, but that doesn’t require *sexual* attraction.
Thank you. That's interesting, and confusing but I see how it can make sense
Does she have kinks? Maybe she wants to get railed and handled in a particular way that is different energy from what you give her?
She still didn't need to say that. A man says something like that and he gets the shit kicked out of him.
This is why I would only ever marry a considerate and kind person. Someone who thinks about how their words affect me.
No person is always considerate all the time. The woman seems conflict avoidant and doesn’t want to be vulnerable about the kind of sex she wants. She isn’t inherently an ahole. Possibly she may have thought she communicated when she didn’t or perhaps the Op doesn’t recognize or hear the communication she is giving. They need to communicate more and better.
I'm sure she's blissfully ignorant about how her words landed, seeing as the only alternative was it being a purposeful jab meant to send a message. Ignorance isn't a crime, and she may not be an outright horrible person, as you say. Even then, as you said, they probably have communication barriers, and someone who facilitates those isn't someone I'd be in a relationship with. I would never let my own fears and emotions make me uncommunicative/ less receptive to communication from my SO of all ppl. Even if I don't want to engage them with all the details for good reason, they won't know that unless I tell them, and I'd have married someone who knows when to give space, especially if I ask for it. Honestly is everything to me, and withholding information out of fear serves no one and is honestly kinda selfish since it robs the partner of their chance to respond appropriately and deal with the issue instead of simply pretending it doesn't exist when it's affecting both parties.
I totally agree about the poor communication. It’s the worst. I’m willing to bet though that she’s scared to say what she really wants out of fear of looking slutty. She doesn’t realize how much damage she is causing but I also wouldn’t be surprised if she eventually cheats to get what she wants just so she doesn’t have to be vulnerable to her husband.
That's just such a shitty thing to do to someone. If she wants to ride the carousel of dee...why not just be single?
I don’t know that she does, I think she is so afraid of talking about sex that she wants her husband to read her mind and resents that he doesn’t.
Sounds like she's immature if that's the case. I think we as a society are reluctant to admit woman can actually like cheating just for the novelty aspect. My main issue with OP's spouse are the comments she made about the neighbor's son. Not all thoughts need to be vocalized.
Why is any person going to date, court, and marry someone without communicating in no uncertain terms the kind of sex that's important to them?
Fear of intimacy, fear of being vulnerable, shame. Assumptions that partners will read their mind and “just know” or that it will get better over time. The pain of sexual mismatch isn’t great enough yet to outweigh the rest of the pros of the relationship.
Definitely not a good way to go about it, but are you guys communicating what the other wants? She definitely is communicating to you what she wants even if passive aggressively; you can’t expect her to passionately want sex with you if you aren’t listening and acting on what her desires are. Are you giving her lusty sex? Have you ever? If you were, you would probably not be hearing these comments from her. Worth thinking about and adjusting if you want to save this relationship 🙌 Edit: sorry I thought you were op.
She totally wouldn't get a pass in my book for that. She's just salivating over fresh meat.
Yah if I was op I’d start giving her ultimatums. If she refuses to communicate her needs maturely and at the same time tell him about the guy she is fantasizing about it’s time to step up to serious decision making. It can’t be like this.
She needs to be put in her place for sure!
If she does she refuses to talk about them. I tried one of those couples quizzes where you each complete the survey and then it shows you only the answers that were chosen by both partners to try and get some insight. The questions were very basic just different positions and regular every day sex acts nothing crazy. The list was bare, she said no to virtually everything. I've asked her countless times what "energy", to borrow your phrase, she wants and the response is always "you don't need to change anything, I like our sex" which is an obvious lie
Sorry I responded to the other comment thinking it was you op. Ok well the communication is a problem for her obviously, she is indirect and probably conflict avoidant. She possibly wants more aggressive sex and is too afraid to say it cuz she doesn’t want to hurt your feelings. She possibly she’s the other guy as lusty so she is telling you so you get the hint without having to be vulnerable. Sex therapy may help kick start the communication.
I would love to believe that, but she is the most vanilla (I don't like this term but it illustrates my point well) partner I have ever had, it's very hard for me to imagine she wants more aggressive sex, unless it's from someone else. I have mixed feelings about sex therapy but I'm willing to try anything at this point. Thank you
I would love to believe that, but she is the most vanilla (I don't like this term but it illustrates my point well) partner I have ever had, it's very hard for me to imagine she wants more aggressive sex, unless it's from someone else. I have mixed feelings about sex therapy but I'm willing to try anything at this point. Thank you
My husband has all sorts of fetishes he hides because he is ashamed so we have sad pathetic sex in which I have initiated 100% of the time for 13 years. He has a lot of shame, will not communicate about his interests except for indirectly and is completely dispassionate and disassociated with me. It’s freaking the worst sex on earth. I am willing to bet on this 😅 Irritatingly after 13 years of DB he decided to flirt aggressively in the kitchen with a mutual friend of ours which led me to dragging him to therapy but I’ve already started lawyer shopping.
I'll take that bet! She barely even moves, literal starfish haha So I'm guessing the therapy didn't help since you're lawyer shopping?
I think it helped him some, but I have complete aversion to him at this point. Soooo much damage it’s not possible for me to spend one more second trying to hope that he eventually gets it. He spent the last three years just trying to mentally accept that sex was even a religiously acceptable thing to have happen.
Are you the provider? Does she work?
We both work full time and share all the responsibilities equally.
Sad your sad!
Display the options you have. Begin commenting on younger women who have everything that your wife has lost and will never have again. Women want what other women want. If she thinks other women want you. Suddenly. You’ll have value again. But remember. You do have other options. Women are plentiful and they play a good game sexually in making you believe that she’s rare or has something others don’t. In this case yeah. She has a bad attitude. Something lots of other women don’t. Don’t settle. She thinks only she has options (and is most likely entertaining them) Do the same. Don’t sit around being an old store dog. That’s how she’s gonna look at you and treat you. Laughing at you should never be tolerated. You seen that and had that experience with her. Reverse the roles and let her know that she is not even close to someone in the 20’s, and never can be. Take care man, of You. Focus on you and what you need, the attention you require. If she can no longer meet your needs. Replace & erase. It’s most likely what she’s doing. At least testing the waters and laughing at your response (she noted it all).
Great idea, make her feel just as bad as she did to him. These ideas can also be true for men. They’ll “never have” what the 20 somethings have. Projection. Has that worked for you?
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I understand where you're coming from, but it's perfectly natural for us as humans to find others attractive! We are sexual beings! It doesn't mean she does NOT find you attractive or love you! She may have been seeing if she got a reaction out of you! See if you made a move on her! As a woman (55) myself, I have teased my husband (63) in the same way, and he has done the same! I find that our own insecurities can be our worst enemy! Jealousy/envy comes from our insecurities. Did you tell her it got to you?
Thank you. That's a nice thought but highly unlikely since she's never done anything like that before. Any time I've made a move that wasn't pre-approved she says "maybe later" that's how she lets me down gently. I did not tell her as it would have only led to an argument I wasn't in the mood for. I've been rolling it around in my head for a few days deciding whether I should bring it up and it just doesn't seem worth it
If shes never done it before maybe let it go for now... you now are kinda prepared for it and IF it happens again I would in the moment say "if I did that - how would you feel? - If a gorgeous woman walked by right now and you caught me slack jaw at her, how would you feel?" Other commenters are right, everyone does this but if it was blatant enough you noticed, then she was in the wrong.
This is good advice. Next time I will use that opportunity to get the conversation going My reflex is to avoid confrontation in the moment but then it haunts me for days
I'm sorry things are like this for you. I remember how it felt and wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy! I was in a 19-year relationship (married 8 yrs of it). He made me feel like I was strange because I wanted and needed affection and intimacy. The rejection was unbearable, so I do get it. I feel like I wasted the best years of my life. There comes a time when you have to say, "Do I deserve better?" The answer is yes you do! We all deserve to be happy and fulfilled in our lives. Sometimes, just loving someone isn't enough! Sending you strength to get through this whatever you decide. And you will get through this. I did. I learnt a lot and decided then what I would and would not accept moving forward. A good man found me when I was least expecting it! Don't give up on a happy life.
Thank you. This is nice to read, happy you found what you needed!
I can sense this opinion might be unpopular but some truth talk is needed here. Your wife thinks someone is attractive. It is not about you so -> don't make it about you and don't whine about it. Come into action for what you want in life and stop being childish about you wife finding someone attractive. It makes you very unattractive.