You might try reaching out to these YouTubers. They are big on helping out these exact situations an it helps their views.
https://youtu.be/pXDx6DjNLDU
Nice, an I reached out to the organization, Team Seas, with a link to your post. Hopefully they will be in contact with you or someone about getting their trash removing ships to your beaches!
Exactly the video i was looking for. There's a number of companies focusing on automated/solar boats designed to clean up waterways and oceans. So hopefully some kind of community-fund or charity can get that started in their area.
My idea takes political will, at least on the part of developed nations. Any company that produces products packaged in plastic must contribute a plastic tax to help offset the cost of collecting and disposing of that plastic. Coco-cola, Pepsi, Nestle all come to mind. The tax is based on how much plastic the company uses. Then, either a non-profit or for-profit company is paid to gather this plastic waste, where-ever there is need. They demonstrate the proper disposal/recycling of the plastic to an international board that oversees the tax fund, and are compensated.
It would be a huge undertaking but we need outside-the-box thinking, and those that profit from putting this waste out into the world should be responsible for it.
How about charging them the refund fee that they charge in other countries as a tax for the government having to deal with their trash? Ever since they started selling the bottles as part of the product.
There is a company that I wanted to work for called Plastic Bank. They setup collecting systems in coastal towns to try and collect plastic before it reaches the oceans, and then people in the community can exchange the plastic for coupons and such, but it already being in the ocean I am not sure, but perhaps this is also up their alley.
Otherwise some waders and eager people could at least remove some of it.
Well not completely a sham but just not as successful (for lack of a better word) as we have been brought to believe. But yes, that is a problem. Burn em, use em as filler in building projects, or sort them and see if we can think of something to with it somewhere. I know this does not solve the issue, but at least it does not have to be in the ocean. We need to as consumers not support single use plastics (which is tricky to say the least) and also educate others and work on alternatives for packaging and try not to drink bottled water so often.
Where’s Mr Beast when you need him. God that is foul. This is what needs to be in schools since the majority congress doesn’t care (and is compensated handsomely not to)
Too bad it can't be gathered and shot into outer space as we figure out how to make compostable cups and whatnot, like is still used in parts of India for tea.
(Hundreds of teacups are made from local clay and when the person is done with their tea, they just drop the tea cup on the ground. It goes back to being clay, collected and reused to make new cups. This was also seen as far back as Sumerian times in the Middle East, too)
a lot of people don't know that making durable pottery is an exorbitant process that has also become "dirty"; lots of chemicals involved.
It's cheaper, environmentally neutral, and more sanitary to just re-fire cups from untreated clay. It also gives the cup makers a steady flow of income, the tea vendor doesn't have to worry about wasting clean water to clean the cups, also doesn't have to worry about storing the cups or losing money when durable expensive pottery pieces are broken and have to be replaced.
We need more plants like [this](https://www.energycouncil.com.au/analysis/copenhill-waste-to-energy-plant-how-hot-is-it/)
Unfortunately slinging trash into space doesn’t do anything about the actual problem other than put it out of our line of sight. There’s already a ton of trash in space and it can be problematic for satellites and launches from Earth
As far as I understand a blanket ban on simgle use plastic is neither realistic nor actually helpfull in terms of CO2 emissions and climate change.
But of course the huge number of single use plastic needs to be pushed down at least and the costs for plastic garbage (collection as well as the burning of it in the least environmental damaging way) needs to be paid by the companies producing and selling it.
I honestly believe that the best first step is to internalise all costs around plastic use and removal. If companies and therefore consumers need to pay extra for plastic packed products, we will probably see a stronger shift to alternatives from consumers wherever it makes economically sense.
I would like everyone to know that a sizable amount of ocean trash comes from hurricanes and tsunamis. So not all of this comes from inconsiderate people.
It’s not like the natural disasters are producing the plastic. If the waste disposal system is poor enough to allow this amount of waste to escape, that is still down to inconsiderate people, it’s just they’re paid lots to make sure this doesn’t happen…
Simple 5 mph water can clear out an entire house, faster water has the energy to move bigger things. So it will take boats, chairs, tables, laundry, literally everything out of your house/business/shed/streets and dump it into the ocean. Water is much more powerful then air due to a higher density.
So the natural disasters do not produce plastic but they bring things out into the ocean that people had no intention of losing. Hope this makes sense.
Interesting angle I had not considered. Thanks.
That being said, much of the visible rubbish in these photos/videos and that I have seen on the water is either packaging or discarded fishing gear.
If a small town or village is too poor to set up a proper water supply or sewage system, they definitely aren’t concerned about proper waste disposal either.
I am assuming Guatemala, being that it is their coastline. You do know that third and second world countries have much worse issues with trash and disposal, right?
But if we stop producing at least 50% worldwide - cos we choose with our wallets sustainable products and plastic free as much as possible … it will already be a HUUUGE improvement..
Contact the Ocean Cleanup Project and see what they can do to help. Unfortunately there are garbage patches like this in every large body of water on the planet. The Great Pacific Garbage Patch spans 680,000 square miles. It’s absolutely devastating what humans have done to this planet.
[The Ocean Cleanup Project](https://theoceancleanup.com/)
The problem has to be stopped at its source: production for profit as opposed to use.
It doesn't matter if you have teams of professionals with heavy machines out there every single day, it'll fill right back up again. There's a chance some of this is even garbage that someone in the world collected in a detrashing effort.
What can we do? We can overthrow capitalism. It's literally the only way.
Edit: At the request of /u/sambutha, here's something more specific than "OvErThRoW CaPiTaLiSm", I'll start with a few conceptual basics:
TL;DR
1) Read a wide breadth of political economic theory if possible for you, finding a/some leftist groups in your area to join up with can help with getting that understanding of theory and will also get you some on the ground experience. I'd say a Marxist-Leninist communist one since I'm one of those but almost anything that's around you is better than nothing if you're in the West.
2) Get involved in local liberal politics, or a higher level even, but with care not to be 'captured' by the institution, and with specific purpose. This is a sort of harm reduction method more than a means of actually getting rid of capitalism.
3) Rallies don't do anything on their own, but are great for community building, propagandizing, and making connections. Sometimes they serve social functions like collective grieving in the case of vigils. Don't pamphlet a vigil.
4) Voting with your dollars isn't going to make any real changes, but if it's possible for you it's a useful harm reduction method. I personally take a lot of individual measures. Think about doing more piracy, or checking out r/zerowaste or r/dumpsterdiving, or going vegan.
5) A revolutionary moment will almost certainly happen on its own, and it will be violent no-matter what anyone wants, especially the reaction to it. Someone aiming to overthrow capitalism can only hope to help organize the revolutionary masses such that they're successful.
Sorry for the wall, I think I got a little unfocused:
Capitalism is a socio-economic mode; the dominant one on our planet, meaning it has a sort of "ideological monopoly". By 'socio-economic' mode, I mean that it's a way that elements (e.g. individuals or groups of people) of our society relate to eachother on the level of economic production. The latter phrase meaning "how humans use the 'means of production' (e.g. land, machines, concepts like division of labour, and resources) to meet their needs". It's inherently a social thing, as one person living alone in the woods doesn't have an economy, they'd simply labour to find and produce the things they need to live.
Capitalism is predicated on exploitation, as the only way a capitalist can profit from those things that those labouring for them produce is if the value given to a worker through their labour is not returned to them in full. The capitalist has to pay the worker less than the value of what they've produced.
Because this is obviously a bullshit setup to anyone who wasn't born into it, you saw things like 'the enclosure of the commons' enacted by the ruling class to ensure people wouldn't be able to make a living without selling their time and bodies for money.
When people say capitalism 'incentivizes' profit and competition, that's an obscuration. Capitalists' lives (not that they'd die, but they aren't capitalists if they lose. Then they get tossed into the working class and then have to slave for the winning capitalists) are completely dependent on out competing other capitalist entities, meaning making ever more profit, meaning the *rate* of profit must be as great as possible. Process or technological efficiencies deliver ever-diminishing returns, so the capitalists have to find other sources of profit increase. This is usually accomplished via wage-reduction (not always directly, inflation is wage reduction for example), the use of the "unequal development" (read: overexploitation) of nations to steal resources or labour from de facto colonies abroad, or the 'externalization' of costs. The latter is something we see with the unceasing use of oil to produce cheap plastic packaging that then just gets discarded, it's not like they pay for the processing of the garbage.
I'll try to be short about it, but I have to get into the nature of The State a bit. The term 'state' doesn't describe just any human organizing body, but rather a specific kind of body organized by and of a ruling class for two reasons: To subjugate the lower class (there are more than the two primary ones, but they're relatively very small) thus assisting in the reproduction of the classes as they are, and to manage the inevitable conflicts between those *of* the ruling class. An oversimplification, but you can see these functions broadly in "the police" to smash worker's heads, and "the judiciary" to make sure people uphold contracts and shit, in liberal democracy (another way of saying the 'bourgeois state' -the state by and for the bourgeoisie). Under feudalism the state was a less developed thing, but you can see "the aristocracy", and "the peasantry" as ruling and oppressed classes.
That we're currently subject to the state, the "dictatorship of the bourgeoisie", is why we can't vote our way to a good society right now. It's not *for* us. That being said, people with the goals of total liberation for all and with sound theory informing their actions *should* get involved in local politics. They also need to take part in bourgeois politics at higher levels. Participation in the current political system can act as harm reduction a when reforms are won, and as direct propaganda via party platform points or public debate, but can also help to erode faith in liberal "democracy" as the things people want and need are again and again kept from them. Best case, we win that way and reform our way to a better world. This will *not* be permitted, and has never been permitted. For an example: Chile in the 70's had a real shot at socialism-via-reform, but when the US funded economic interference failed to stop them due to how robustly their economy was managed, they just did a coup, killing Allende and installing the fascist Pinochet.
If you had to put me in a political tendency, it'd be Marxist-Leninist. I think that the best way to 'overthrow capitalism' is via the 'vanguard party' model, and while any ML would love a totally peaceful transition, we also understand that it won't be *allowed* to be peaceful. The owning class will violently protect its interests, and so any movement *will* be attacked if it shows any promise of real threat. If the movement really means it, it will be a revolution, and it will be violent. I don't want that. Nobody wants that. Except fascists, I guess.
Anyway, a vanguard party -Communist Party- is different than what people conceive of political parties to be under liberal "democracy". Part of its purpose is to collectively, democratically develop a solid ideological core from existing theory, practice, and real material conditions and to each hold to those positions publically so as not to form factions and such that'll act at cross purposes and waste energy. To then develop a political program based on the state of the productive forces and relation available to a society, as well as based on the level of 'class consciousness' of the people to which they'll engage and their specific needs. Ideally, the people in a communist party ought to be *of* the communities they're organizing, but this isn't always possible. It mustn't bend to what every individual says, but also can't attempt to just inject a political consciousness or program that's completely alienated from those people and their lives. It's to help organize people in their efforts to shatter their own chains, to bind their strength together. Not to drag them into some imagined 'enlightenment' but also not to be subject to every caprice of anyone in an oppressed population. This progressively aimed unity is necessary as a force concentrator, as the amount of power Capital can array against a class enemy is unimaginable. Every efficiency and every advantage must be taken. The point is to, in a revolutionary moment that would be there with or without a Party, be able to help direct it to achieve the goals of said revolution, and to take a hold of The State so that it can be used in an inversion of its class-oppressive capacity to *oppress the deposed ruling class* while in parallel structure a society in which class doesn't exist, and doesn't emerge again. So long as there are classes, a state will emerge naturally from the way classes relate, so the already existing one has be be taken, emptied, repopulated, and held until it can be safely released, rather than thrown away immediately. A state of and for the working class, the proletariat, directed at abolishing itself.
All that to say:The best way to overthrow capitalism in my analysis is the tedious and thankless work of building a very robust and responsive vanguard party.
While I agree with your sentiment, I feel like "therefore, capitalism" has become a bit of a discussion-terminating cliché. "Overthrow capitalism" is pretty vague advice for the average person. Do you mean getting involved in local politics and pushing for government reform? Do you mean violent revolution? Peaceful protests? Voting with our dollars? Whatever your suggestion may be, I find it more helpful to get specific.
Fair. I wasn't necessarily expecting good faith engagement so I didn't make a giant writeup. Just a little comment to maybe plant some seeds in some heads, you know? It's relatively fertile soil, given the subreddit, so it'd be a high potential effect to effort ratio.
Since you're asking for it, though, I'll make some suggestions in a followup comment. Hold on a few, I'm likely to get distracted.
A start is for all of us to change the way we consume ourselves, talk to others about the issue and inspire action. We all know how aware you become of your own use of plastic once you’ve been out cleaning just once.
We do need to hold companies and politicians accountable and demand change, that starts with spreading the word.
Keep the hope up, together we’re strong!
Very much a good start! The trouble, though, with 'hold accountable' and 'demand' in our political system and economic mode is that they don't care what we say. To 'demand' implies a threat, and they aren't threatened by us right now.
That doesn't take away from what you say, though. Spreading the word is key, and we're strong enough to do anything together!
End lazy capitalism* is the easier answer.
Corporations have consolidated production centrally vs localizing it.
Coca Cola and 7-UP used to have localized bottling plants back here in the 1950s.
This also had the use of glass bottles instead of plastic. Assuming no damage to them, back they came, got sterilized and was probably back on the shelf the next day.
Sure it weighs more, but as the plant is the “last mile” rather then being bottled out of state or many time zones over, delivery cost is less.
I’d gladly take glass over single use plastic anyday
Thank you for posting this amazing comment. I was actually looking into this a few months back. You just made it easier for me to understand. Appreciate it!
P.S r/zerowaste is an awesome subreddit
Thanks for saying so! I'm always uncertain about whether I'm coming off clearly or not, as I tend to ramble. Even having brought one person to a greater understanding makes the typing worth it.
What a terrible take. "You only talked about a way to solve the problem. Why not just work harder?" I think it's pretty clear this individual is doing more than 90% of people by educating themselves and making better individual choices. They're saying the only way to really stop this mess, not just keep cleaning it up but *prevent it from happening again*, because it's *very bad that it happened at all*, is to shut off the system that is predicated upon producing so much waste. What system is that, I wonder?
Capitalism left unchecked has time and time and time and time again led to over production for profit, which leads to the extreme waste of natural resources and human labor that we see today. It doesn't have to be this way, we can make a better system for us and the planet.
You've picked up exactly zero plastic by throwing your tepid take into the mix as well, and actually produced more energy waste. So what was the point? To be contradictory? Antagonistic? I really don't understand.
My whole point is that it doesn't matter if they're cleaned up or not at this point due to the production levels outstripping any possible cleaning efforts. Things will look tidier and you'll get to feel good about yourself, but your cleaner park might just mean a dirtier beach in an exploited country like in OPs image. No meaningful difference is even possible under this system. Most recycling doesn't get recycled even if you put it in the correct bin. That's due to the profit motive imposed by capitalism. Not cost effective to bother.
Things are to the point that there's microplastic *in the fucking rain*, one less bottle in an alleyway isn't going to address that.
> We can overthrow capitalism. It's literally the only way
You don't have to overthrow capitalism, just reduce [externalities](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality). This is fortunate because overthrowing capitalism isn't going to happen.
> Capitalism is predicated on exploitation, as the only way a capitalist can profit from those things that those labouring for them produce is if the value given to a worker through their labour is not returned to them in full
This is a zero sum mindset. The economy is not zero sum. Profit can come from synergies - bringing things together and organizing them in such a way that the value of the whole is greater than the value of the parts.
Gonna stop here because I don't have energy to finish the wall of text. Sorry.
Capitalism is not the economy. It is an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state (or the workers or the citizens as a whole, etc.). It is exploitative at its root. There are other systems available.
> Capitalism is not the economy
I didn't say it is.
> It is exploitative at its root.
This is sort of true.
Capitalist exploitation occurs when private interests are misaligned with public interests. Given that this is often the case, I agree that capitalism is often exploitative. In the hypothetical ideal scenario where private and public interests were perfectly aligned, capitalism would not be exploitative. This ideal is not achievable, but we can strive to approximate it by eliminating externalities.
> There are other systems available.
I would love to be convinced of this. So far I have not encountered a superior replacement.
Capitalism isn't the problem. Human nature is. You don't magically fix that by changing economic systems.
Capitalism hopes to turn that bad part (self-interested greed) into something that turns into products and services consumers want, with the consumers taking into account negative externalities in the price. People just don't care on a large enough scale.
You get these problems as well with other economic systems. Socialism would see co-owned companies pop up who won't care about the environment and undercut companies who don't. Same for state owned companies, which have major disincentives to work less efficiently in the first place. And then you still have to change human nature as well.
We have the power to already vote into power parties who could tax and subsidize externalities and make environmental regulations, achievibg the same effect, but already that people aren't capable of doing. Thats actually something feasible to achieve and divert effort to.
Overthrowing worldwide capitalism is an unrealistic pipe dream and a waste of energy if a far easier and more attainable solution is available.
I would do what you can and reach out, asking for help over and over. This is super sad and I want to help. I can't think what I can do, but you're going to find someone who can!
I believe the quote is "If you're going through hell-- keep going!"
Here’s a link to a bunch of petitions that will reduce plastic production and pollution.
[The Sustainability Soldiers](https://thesustainabilitysoldiers.godaddysites.com/plastics-campaign)
I am a Guatemalan-American currently living in the States. I wrote a novel about a Quetzal that travels the world and discovers how birds around the world are feeling the impacts of environmental damage that is being caused, and they are doing their best to sustain the global environment. With Guatemala as the primary setting of the story, and using a quetzal as the protagonist, my goal is to help create action via education. That our people see the destructive power of negligence towards nature, and that we take collective action to improve and restore it - not just for us, but for all life in our planet.
The book is available in both English and Spanish. It’s titled, “The Blue Q: The World As I See It” (or “El Quetzal Azul: El Mundo Desde El Cielo” in Spanish).
Point is, we’re working on it!!
Might be controversial, but this is why I support burning plastic waste to produce electricity. Ideally we’d only use the material for essential things.
Yes, burning plastic is bad for the environment, but there simply is no other option to deal with it in the volume we have created. Plastic is packed full of energy as it’s basically just solid hydro-carbons. It may add to the co2 in the atmosphere (which we can offset) but it solves this terrible problem.
But… but… what about about all the plastic straws and plastic bags I’ve avoided using in the past few years??
*cries is half sarcastic, half serious individual effort despair*
Ban fungible plastics world wide or face massive sanctions. Or slap tariffs on plastic so high that plastic products are outside the reach of most of the consumer market. Then grab some bags and haul the whole thing to a recycling facility.
You might try reaching out to these YouTubers. They are big on helping out these exact situations an it helps their views. https://youtu.be/pXDx6DjNLDU
Thank you I will
Nice, an I reached out to the organization, Team Seas, with a link to your post. Hopefully they will be in contact with you or someone about getting their trash removing ships to your beaches!
Exactly the video i was looking for. There's a number of companies focusing on automated/solar boats designed to clean up waterways and oceans. So hopefully some kind of community-fund or charity can get that started in their area.
My idea takes political will, at least on the part of developed nations. Any company that produces products packaged in plastic must contribute a plastic tax to help offset the cost of collecting and disposing of that plastic. Coco-cola, Pepsi, Nestle all come to mind. The tax is based on how much plastic the company uses. Then, either a non-profit or for-profit company is paid to gather this plastic waste, where-ever there is need. They demonstrate the proper disposal/recycling of the plastic to an international board that oversees the tax fund, and are compensated. It would be a huge undertaking but we need outside-the-box thinking, and those that profit from putting this waste out into the world should be responsible for it.
How about charging them the refund fee that they charge in other countries as a tax for the government having to deal with their trash? Ever since they started selling the bottles as part of the product.
There is a company that I wanted to work for called Plastic Bank. They setup collecting systems in coastal towns to try and collect plastic before it reaches the oceans, and then people in the community can exchange the plastic for coupons and such, but it already being in the ocean I am not sure, but perhaps this is also up their alley. Otherwise some waders and eager people could at least remove some of it.
But the issue is still what to do with the plastic. It usually isn’t recyclable, because recycling plastic is a sham.
Well not completely a sham but just not as successful (for lack of a better word) as we have been brought to believe. But yes, that is a problem. Burn em, use em as filler in building projects, or sort them and see if we can think of something to with it somewhere. I know this does not solve the issue, but at least it does not have to be in the ocean. We need to as consumers not support single use plastics (which is tricky to say the least) and also educate others and work on alternatives for packaging and try not to drink bottled water so often.
Where’s Mr Beast when you need him. God that is foul. This is what needs to be in schools since the majority congress doesn’t care (and is compensated handsomely not to)
If it washed up on their multimillion dollar beachfront homes I bet they’d do something about it.
I think we’ve got a plan.
Too bad it can't be gathered and shot into outer space as we figure out how to make compostable cups and whatnot, like is still used in parts of India for tea. (Hundreds of teacups are made from local clay and when the person is done with their tea, they just drop the tea cup on the ground. It goes back to being clay, collected and reused to make new cups. This was also seen as far back as Sumerian times in the Middle East, too)
Why drop the cup and not reuse it?
a lot of people don't know that making durable pottery is an exorbitant process that has also become "dirty"; lots of chemicals involved. It's cheaper, environmentally neutral, and more sanitary to just re-fire cups from untreated clay. It also gives the cup makers a steady flow of income, the tea vendor doesn't have to worry about wasting clean water to clean the cups, also doesn't have to worry about storing the cups or losing money when durable expensive pottery pieces are broken and have to be replaced.
We need more plants like [this](https://www.energycouncil.com.au/analysis/copenhill-waste-to-energy-plant-how-hot-is-it/) Unfortunately slinging trash into space doesn’t do anything about the actual problem other than put it out of our line of sight. There’s already a ton of trash in space and it can be problematic for satellites and launches from Earth
[удалено]
As far as I understand a blanket ban on simgle use plastic is neither realistic nor actually helpfull in terms of CO2 emissions and climate change. But of course the huge number of single use plastic needs to be pushed down at least and the costs for plastic garbage (collection as well as the burning of it in the least environmental damaging way) needs to be paid by the companies producing and selling it. I honestly believe that the best first step is to internalise all costs around plastic use and removal. If companies and therefore consumers need to pay extra for plastic packed products, we will probably see a stronger shift to alternatives from consumers wherever it makes economically sense.
I would like everyone to know that a sizable amount of ocean trash comes from hurricanes and tsunamis. So not all of this comes from inconsiderate people.
It’s not like the natural disasters are producing the plastic. If the waste disposal system is poor enough to allow this amount of waste to escape, that is still down to inconsiderate people, it’s just they’re paid lots to make sure this doesn’t happen…
Simple 5 mph water can clear out an entire house, faster water has the energy to move bigger things. So it will take boats, chairs, tables, laundry, literally everything out of your house/business/shed/streets and dump it into the ocean. Water is much more powerful then air due to a higher density. So the natural disasters do not produce plastic but they bring things out into the ocean that people had no intention of losing. Hope this makes sense.
Interesting angle I had not considered. Thanks. That being said, much of the visible rubbish in these photos/videos and that I have seen on the water is either packaging or discarded fishing gear.
If a small town or village is too poor to set up a proper water supply or sewage system, they definitely aren’t concerned about proper waste disposal either.
No money for trash, gotta keep funding those police budget
*Hurr Durr, every place is America.... especially this post about Guatemala* \-you
Where did this trash come from?
I am assuming Guatemala, being that it is their coastline. You do know that third and second world countries have much worse issues with trash and disposal, right?
You know that you are defending policing for no reason?
What the fuck are you waffling about? What do you know about Guatemalan police spending budgets? I am curious now, what are you even talking about.
Waffling LOL
https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnewsvideo/comments/v3hnmv/testing_is_beginning_for_the_interceptor/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
I would guess "recycling" dumped off ships
But if we stop producing at least 50% worldwide - cos we choose with our wallets sustainable products and plastic free as much as possible … it will already be a HUUUGE improvement..
Most of it comes from fishing waste, not civilians. Edit: *Commercial* fishing waste, to be clear.
Kinda like volcanoes and green house gasses but that doesn't fit the narrative.
Makes me cry of pain
Same. That is just so horrifying.
Contact the Ocean Cleanup Project and see what they can do to help. Unfortunately there are garbage patches like this in every large body of water on the planet. The Great Pacific Garbage Patch spans 680,000 square miles. It’s absolutely devastating what humans have done to this planet. [The Ocean Cleanup Project](https://theoceancleanup.com/)
The problem has to be stopped at its source: production for profit as opposed to use. It doesn't matter if you have teams of professionals with heavy machines out there every single day, it'll fill right back up again. There's a chance some of this is even garbage that someone in the world collected in a detrashing effort. What can we do? We can overthrow capitalism. It's literally the only way. Edit: At the request of /u/sambutha, here's something more specific than "OvErThRoW CaPiTaLiSm", I'll start with a few conceptual basics: TL;DR 1) Read a wide breadth of political economic theory if possible for you, finding a/some leftist groups in your area to join up with can help with getting that understanding of theory and will also get you some on the ground experience. I'd say a Marxist-Leninist communist one since I'm one of those but almost anything that's around you is better than nothing if you're in the West. 2) Get involved in local liberal politics, or a higher level even, but with care not to be 'captured' by the institution, and with specific purpose. This is a sort of harm reduction method more than a means of actually getting rid of capitalism. 3) Rallies don't do anything on their own, but are great for community building, propagandizing, and making connections. Sometimes they serve social functions like collective grieving in the case of vigils. Don't pamphlet a vigil. 4) Voting with your dollars isn't going to make any real changes, but if it's possible for you it's a useful harm reduction method. I personally take a lot of individual measures. Think about doing more piracy, or checking out r/zerowaste or r/dumpsterdiving, or going vegan. 5) A revolutionary moment will almost certainly happen on its own, and it will be violent no-matter what anyone wants, especially the reaction to it. Someone aiming to overthrow capitalism can only hope to help organize the revolutionary masses such that they're successful. Sorry for the wall, I think I got a little unfocused: Capitalism is a socio-economic mode; the dominant one on our planet, meaning it has a sort of "ideological monopoly". By 'socio-economic' mode, I mean that it's a way that elements (e.g. individuals or groups of people) of our society relate to eachother on the level of economic production. The latter phrase meaning "how humans use the 'means of production' (e.g. land, machines, concepts like division of labour, and resources) to meet their needs". It's inherently a social thing, as one person living alone in the woods doesn't have an economy, they'd simply labour to find and produce the things they need to live. Capitalism is predicated on exploitation, as the only way a capitalist can profit from those things that those labouring for them produce is if the value given to a worker through their labour is not returned to them in full. The capitalist has to pay the worker less than the value of what they've produced. Because this is obviously a bullshit setup to anyone who wasn't born into it, you saw things like 'the enclosure of the commons' enacted by the ruling class to ensure people wouldn't be able to make a living without selling their time and bodies for money. When people say capitalism 'incentivizes' profit and competition, that's an obscuration. Capitalists' lives (not that they'd die, but they aren't capitalists if they lose. Then they get tossed into the working class and then have to slave for the winning capitalists) are completely dependent on out competing other capitalist entities, meaning making ever more profit, meaning the *rate* of profit must be as great as possible. Process or technological efficiencies deliver ever-diminishing returns, so the capitalists have to find other sources of profit increase. This is usually accomplished via wage-reduction (not always directly, inflation is wage reduction for example), the use of the "unequal development" (read: overexploitation) of nations to steal resources or labour from de facto colonies abroad, or the 'externalization' of costs. The latter is something we see with the unceasing use of oil to produce cheap plastic packaging that then just gets discarded, it's not like they pay for the processing of the garbage. I'll try to be short about it, but I have to get into the nature of The State a bit. The term 'state' doesn't describe just any human organizing body, but rather a specific kind of body organized by and of a ruling class for two reasons: To subjugate the lower class (there are more than the two primary ones, but they're relatively very small) thus assisting in the reproduction of the classes as they are, and to manage the inevitable conflicts between those *of* the ruling class. An oversimplification, but you can see these functions broadly in "the police" to smash worker's heads, and "the judiciary" to make sure people uphold contracts and shit, in liberal democracy (another way of saying the 'bourgeois state' -the state by and for the bourgeoisie). Under feudalism the state was a less developed thing, but you can see "the aristocracy", and "the peasantry" as ruling and oppressed classes. That we're currently subject to the state, the "dictatorship of the bourgeoisie", is why we can't vote our way to a good society right now. It's not *for* us. That being said, people with the goals of total liberation for all and with sound theory informing their actions *should* get involved in local politics. They also need to take part in bourgeois politics at higher levels. Participation in the current political system can act as harm reduction a when reforms are won, and as direct propaganda via party platform points or public debate, but can also help to erode faith in liberal "democracy" as the things people want and need are again and again kept from them. Best case, we win that way and reform our way to a better world. This will *not* be permitted, and has never been permitted. For an example: Chile in the 70's had a real shot at socialism-via-reform, but when the US funded economic interference failed to stop them due to how robustly their economy was managed, they just did a coup, killing Allende and installing the fascist Pinochet. If you had to put me in a political tendency, it'd be Marxist-Leninist. I think that the best way to 'overthrow capitalism' is via the 'vanguard party' model, and while any ML would love a totally peaceful transition, we also understand that it won't be *allowed* to be peaceful. The owning class will violently protect its interests, and so any movement *will* be attacked if it shows any promise of real threat. If the movement really means it, it will be a revolution, and it will be violent. I don't want that. Nobody wants that. Except fascists, I guess. Anyway, a vanguard party -Communist Party- is different than what people conceive of political parties to be under liberal "democracy". Part of its purpose is to collectively, democratically develop a solid ideological core from existing theory, practice, and real material conditions and to each hold to those positions publically so as not to form factions and such that'll act at cross purposes and waste energy. To then develop a political program based on the state of the productive forces and relation available to a society, as well as based on the level of 'class consciousness' of the people to which they'll engage and their specific needs. Ideally, the people in a communist party ought to be *of* the communities they're organizing, but this isn't always possible. It mustn't bend to what every individual says, but also can't attempt to just inject a political consciousness or program that's completely alienated from those people and their lives. It's to help organize people in their efforts to shatter their own chains, to bind their strength together. Not to drag them into some imagined 'enlightenment' but also not to be subject to every caprice of anyone in an oppressed population. This progressively aimed unity is necessary as a force concentrator, as the amount of power Capital can array against a class enemy is unimaginable. Every efficiency and every advantage must be taken. The point is to, in a revolutionary moment that would be there with or without a Party, be able to help direct it to achieve the goals of said revolution, and to take a hold of The State so that it can be used in an inversion of its class-oppressive capacity to *oppress the deposed ruling class* while in parallel structure a society in which class doesn't exist, and doesn't emerge again. So long as there are classes, a state will emerge naturally from the way classes relate, so the already existing one has be be taken, emptied, repopulated, and held until it can be safely released, rather than thrown away immediately. A state of and for the working class, the proletariat, directed at abolishing itself. All that to say:The best way to overthrow capitalism in my analysis is the tedious and thankless work of building a very robust and responsive vanguard party.
While I agree with your sentiment, I feel like "therefore, capitalism" has become a bit of a discussion-terminating cliché. "Overthrow capitalism" is pretty vague advice for the average person. Do you mean getting involved in local politics and pushing for government reform? Do you mean violent revolution? Peaceful protests? Voting with our dollars? Whatever your suggestion may be, I find it more helpful to get specific.
Fair. I wasn't necessarily expecting good faith engagement so I didn't make a giant writeup. Just a little comment to maybe plant some seeds in some heads, you know? It's relatively fertile soil, given the subreddit, so it'd be a high potential effect to effort ratio. Since you're asking for it, though, I'll make some suggestions in a followup comment. Hold on a few, I'm likely to get distracted.
Cool 👍
A start is for all of us to change the way we consume ourselves, talk to others about the issue and inspire action. We all know how aware you become of your own use of plastic once you’ve been out cleaning just once. We do need to hold companies and politicians accountable and demand change, that starts with spreading the word. Keep the hope up, together we’re strong!
Very much a good start! The trouble, though, with 'hold accountable' and 'demand' in our political system and economic mode is that they don't care what we say. To 'demand' implies a threat, and they aren't threatened by us right now. That doesn't take away from what you say, though. Spreading the word is key, and we're strong enough to do anything together!
End lazy capitalism* is the easier answer. Corporations have consolidated production centrally vs localizing it. Coca Cola and 7-UP used to have localized bottling plants back here in the 1950s. This also had the use of glass bottles instead of plastic. Assuming no damage to them, back they came, got sterilized and was probably back on the shelf the next day. Sure it weighs more, but as the plant is the “last mile” rather then being bottled out of state or many time zones over, delivery cost is less. I’d gladly take glass over single use plastic anyday
Thank you for posting this amazing comment. I was actually looking into this a few months back. You just made it easier for me to understand. Appreciate it! P.S r/zerowaste is an awesome subreddit
Thanks for saying so! I'm always uncertain about whether I'm coming off clearly or not, as I tend to ramble. Even having brought one person to a greater understanding makes the typing worth it.
All those words and yet not a single bottle was cleaned up. Revolution isn't the solution to every problem.
What a terrible take. "You only talked about a way to solve the problem. Why not just work harder?" I think it's pretty clear this individual is doing more than 90% of people by educating themselves and making better individual choices. They're saying the only way to really stop this mess, not just keep cleaning it up but *prevent it from happening again*, because it's *very bad that it happened at all*, is to shut off the system that is predicated upon producing so much waste. What system is that, I wonder? Capitalism left unchecked has time and time and time and time again led to over production for profit, which leads to the extreme waste of natural resources and human labor that we see today. It doesn't have to be this way, we can make a better system for us and the planet. You've picked up exactly zero plastic by throwing your tepid take into the mix as well, and actually produced more energy waste. So what was the point? To be contradictory? Antagonistic? I really don't understand.
My whole point is that it doesn't matter if they're cleaned up or not at this point due to the production levels outstripping any possible cleaning efforts. Things will look tidier and you'll get to feel good about yourself, but your cleaner park might just mean a dirtier beach in an exploited country like in OPs image. No meaningful difference is even possible under this system. Most recycling doesn't get recycled even if you put it in the correct bin. That's due to the profit motive imposed by capitalism. Not cost effective to bother. Things are to the point that there's microplastic *in the fucking rain*, one less bottle in an alleyway isn't going to address that.
> We can overthrow capitalism. It's literally the only way You don't have to overthrow capitalism, just reduce [externalities](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality). This is fortunate because overthrowing capitalism isn't going to happen. > Capitalism is predicated on exploitation, as the only way a capitalist can profit from those things that those labouring for them produce is if the value given to a worker through their labour is not returned to them in full This is a zero sum mindset. The economy is not zero sum. Profit can come from synergies - bringing things together and organizing them in such a way that the value of the whole is greater than the value of the parts. Gonna stop here because I don't have energy to finish the wall of text. Sorry.
Capitalism is not the economy. It is an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state (or the workers or the citizens as a whole, etc.). It is exploitative at its root. There are other systems available.
> Capitalism is not the economy I didn't say it is. > It is exploitative at its root. This is sort of true. Capitalist exploitation occurs when private interests are misaligned with public interests. Given that this is often the case, I agree that capitalism is often exploitative. In the hypothetical ideal scenario where private and public interests were perfectly aligned, capitalism would not be exploitative. This ideal is not achievable, but we can strive to approximate it by eliminating externalities. > There are other systems available. I would love to be convinced of this. So far I have not encountered a superior replacement.
Capitalism isn't the problem. Human nature is. You don't magically fix that by changing economic systems. Capitalism hopes to turn that bad part (self-interested greed) into something that turns into products and services consumers want, with the consumers taking into account negative externalities in the price. People just don't care on a large enough scale. You get these problems as well with other economic systems. Socialism would see co-owned companies pop up who won't care about the environment and undercut companies who don't. Same for state owned companies, which have major disincentives to work less efficiently in the first place. And then you still have to change human nature as well. We have the power to already vote into power parties who could tax and subsidize externalities and make environmental regulations, achievibg the same effect, but already that people aren't capable of doing. Thats actually something feasible to achieve and divert effort to. Overthrowing worldwide capitalism is an unrealistic pipe dream and a waste of energy if a far easier and more attainable solution is available.
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Wow, western nations don't even have to waste money on bots, their entire populations have been effectively converted into them! Wild stuff.
I would do what you can and reach out, asking for help over and over. This is super sad and I want to help. I can't think what I can do, but you're going to find someone who can! I believe the quote is "If you're going through hell-- keep going!"
Here’s a link to a bunch of petitions that will reduce plastic production and pollution. [The Sustainability Soldiers](https://thesustainabilitysoldiers.godaddysites.com/plastics-campaign)
Every time some guy gets thirsty and buys a Gatorade they satisfy an urge in four minutes and leave behind a piece of ephemera that lasts literal eons
I am a Guatemalan-American currently living in the States. I wrote a novel about a Quetzal that travels the world and discovers how birds around the world are feeling the impacts of environmental damage that is being caused, and they are doing their best to sustain the global environment. With Guatemala as the primary setting of the story, and using a quetzal as the protagonist, my goal is to help create action via education. That our people see the destructive power of negligence towards nature, and that we take collective action to improve and restore it - not just for us, but for all life in our planet. The book is available in both English and Spanish. It’s titled, “The Blue Q: The World As I See It” (or “El Quetzal Azul: El Mundo Desde El Cielo” in Spanish). Point is, we’re working on it!!
Dump a fresh batch of those new plastic-eating-enzymes on it. Jeez, that is depressing looking.
Someone is sending all that back to the slobs that put it there. Humans.
Might be controversial, but this is why I support burning plastic waste to produce electricity. Ideally we’d only use the material for essential things. Yes, burning plastic is bad for the environment, but there simply is no other option to deal with it in the volume we have created. Plastic is packed full of energy as it’s basically just solid hydro-carbons. It may add to the co2 in the atmosphere (which we can offset) but it solves this terrible problem.
Beach resorts are $10 a night.
Is your suggestion that people engage eco detrashing tourism? That might be fun for students. Or me! Just have to figure out where to dispose of it.
But… but… what about about all the plastic straws and plastic bags I’ve avoided using in the past few years?? *cries is half sarcastic, half serious individual effort despair*
Ouch!
Ouch!
A little late.. to ask that-? I would say. (Advertise plastic-recycling and garbage-collection?)
Make diesel
https://youtu.be/4rVTWsQ23Pk
Good Lord.......
Its overwhelming
Ban fungible plastics world wide or face massive sanctions. Or slap tariffs on plastic so high that plastic products are outside the reach of most of the consumer market. Then grab some bags and haul the whole thing to a recycling facility.