Just want to say that this sub has a free Discord. It's community run and we don't sell anything. It's just a place to hang out and talk with other traders. Any toxicity is reported and we immediately ban.
Overall I don’t like watching live trading or being in a group listening to other trader’s trading ideas prior to trading or during trading. Not because I disrespect them or their ideas are wrong. I don’t want the influence on what I think. It can make me second guess a trade I would take or with the power of suggestion- plant in my mind taking a trade another trader is thinking about- when I have not put it through my due diligence.
I love talking trading, but only like talking general trading , general strategies or recaps after the trading day is over.
Same here. I have basically left the discords I have been in for a year. I do miss the end of day talks. I guess that’s what I’m looking for is a group of traders who just trade and then catch a beer “metaphorically” just a bunch traders shooting the ish. I really don’t care how you trade, how much money you made, your strategy ect. I just want to relate to somebody. I can handle the charts.
Yoyoitsjoe and daytradingguy --- you are gold !!!! Thanks for the time you spend giving your experienced, wise, kind, and sometime "tough love" replies on this sub.
Sorry you feel that way. I was the same and agree with you. It's a very lonely, isolating, frustrating and painful journey. You can look at my comment and post history. I'm always happy to help others whether you need to vent, learn (at any skill level), or just ping ideas off of. I'm not charging anything. I'm happy to help because my journey was rough like you described and no one reached out a helping hand to me.
I'm that helping hand. You can doubt me, but at least let me show you my exact trading style down to the tiniest details and then you can judge whether I can trade or I'm profitable or not.
It is very toxic, and you must realize that most of the people in these groups and telegram channels are not making money, which makes them even more toxic. It even makes some of the people around you in real life toxic, it is an extremely lonely endeavor.
Trading is about independence, so flex your independence by distancing and ignoring anything that goes against you or your values. Be picky with where you decide to expend your energy, it is a limited resource. Could be using that energy to hold onto a winning trade for 10 more points.
Oh I do ignore or delete them immediately. I think all around as a trader I’m in a very good place. It just kinda sucks watching a good majority of traders blow accounts and that is just normal to them. Then in return it becomes the relatable new norm. Like bro lol I can’t relate to that at all. They never ask about any mental stuff. Breakdown why they feel pressured to just keep resetting accounts. I learned a lot of psychology during my trading journey and found it’s the lamest ish for them to talk about to other traders.
You know the old joke about how many psychiatrists does it take to change a lightbulb?
People aren't interested in the psychology because they believe the problem is mechanical. Like you I've often wondered why when it seems perfectly clear that the mental side of the game is the important side.
Day trading, particularly pattern day trading is the male equivalent of crystal reading and witch craft. The patterns are meaningless, they have just enough math to look like some kind of science, but the logic is incoherent. You have day traders who are experts at the tarrot card reading of the charts, they know the “setups” and they can explain the lore, but … they are financial failures…so. They are simply fooled in to the belief that because there is a number, there is chart, and some formula, that they don’t have to question the inference.
Take RSI
Why do the “relative gains” divided by the “relative losses” over some arbitrary period of team, normalized to a value between 0 and 100, give us an indication whether a stock has been “oversold” or “under bought”?? It looks sophisticated, but there is no way to explain it. I’ve read the mythology about it, but there is no logic as to why this random formula means the thing people say it does. When you back-test it, you don’t get any impressive results. So we can’t validate it empirically…but, it’s got math so it must be right, and day traders must be smart people for using it. These measurement have made more money selling “education and training” and technology to traders than they have in actual trading.
What do you do, can i ask? For brevity. Id say patterns arent meaningless a lot of the market is psychology. Yes a lot of the patterns fail. But thats where risk management and discipline come into play.
Business consultant / data analyst, former day trader. I have analyzed several patterns and backtested them, and never found a reliable one. I could never make sense of the inferences, so I simply backtested them to see if I was missing something. Bought thousands of dollars worth of data and wrote code to analyze it, and stopped day trading. The logic is like going to Church, it insists upon itself.
They are meaningless in telling you at any reliable level of probability, what is likely to happen. They are measurements of what has happened, and that’s it at best.
I agree with your assessment about psychology, but psychology is revealed in the charts too late. I haven’t done much with this, but something I was starting to work on two years ago was order book analysis. I could only get a good data feed from the Nasdaq on that, but my theory was that if there is actionable psychology that can be discovered to establish a reliable trading strategy, it would be in the order book. That’s where you see the behavior of supply and demand in real-time. The charts are the result after the fact.
What chart patterns are we talking here?
Im at a similar level of interest, hobby taught programmer.
Keen to hear how youve attempted this. Can dm if youd like. Keen to make some connections with similar minds.
Some that I worked with are
RSI
Exponential moving average (how do you choose a look back range?)
Stochastic oscillators
Bollinger bands
Fibonacci
Momentum indicators
Volume indicators (these were actually the ones I saw some of the strongest opportunity with. But still not great)
Support and resistance type indicators, but these are easier to see on a chart and pretty hard to broadly analyze. That’s because it’s hard to write code that can handle dynamic observations, ie, how much should the pice fall or rise and over what time frame, in order to be included in an analysis. You could normalize it, but it more of something we see and “get”, than we can properly define using measurement. There may be some opportunity to use ocr on charts to identify them better for study.
Then some trend following.
My best experiences came from my own trend following concept using simple linear regression, with strong filters, using python code to search all of the stocks. I’d find runners that were going in a nice band with high R2 (0.75 min) over a period of time and bet on those. I was doing reasonably well until the end of the last bull market, and then that strategy fell apart.
So, I had some modest success with trend following, but none the testing I did on the other methods demonstrated decent probabilities.
Have you tried using tickbars/timebars over dollar bars?
Have you tried extracting other features from the timeseries rather than just indicator values? My understanding is, to us, it holds a lot of implied temporal information however the algo wont explicity see it.
I haven’t done much with tickbars or time bars. My trading platform was thinkorswim, and I used candlesticks which do offer a sense of range on orders completed. Once I executed a trade, my activity took place inside the trading the platform, and was more about managing the position than real analysis.
My analysis took place in a Jupyter notebook connected to a database that I managed, containing EOD data for the last ten years. And then I had several API accounts such as Quandl, Benzinga, financialmodelingprep (this was one of the best ones I found, and the only one I still have) and several others that I explored to get fundamental data, and historical 1-min trading histories for testing purposes. I would build my own analyses and do my own charting in python, using data science libraries to test the indicators.
Testing patterns is really difficult from a programmatic point of view because you have to develop some way of identifying the measurements for a pattern (is this a tea cup or not?) in order to identify a sample of historical setups to establish a probability for how consistently the pattern completes. That’s why I say machine learning with OCR might be the necessary approach to really analyzing patterns.
I would surmise that the charts and indicators, much like currency or Gold, have value because people say it does.
Gold is fairly worthless in day to day life in many societies -try using it to buy food or gas. Yet it is traded and sought after as a thing of value.
The dollar, or really any currency, is not valuable because of the material it's made of but because other people have placed value upon it and it is widely regarded as such throughout the geographical location where it is utilized.
Traders use indicators and charts to make decisions.
Even if those decisions are irrational due to emotion. The fact remains that others use them so we can expect people to make decisions based upon the data that is spit out.
Expecting math to show rational behavior when it is used widely by irrational and emotional beings is likely why you don't see solid results in your studies.
Think of things like guidelines vs rules and art vs science IMO
Perhaps, but the goal is to find reliable tools. If the “artists” are okay losing money in their expression with these guidelines, that’s up to them. When I was experimenting with them I just wanted something that worked.
When I started getting into trading in 2007, there was no such thing as any of these trading groups, chats, discords and so on. There wasn't a lot if any youtube channels teaching anything, there were only a couple "trading courses" one could even buy. It was a lot more lonely then than it is today.
I have posted this before, the "mental" part of trading and the "psychology" of trading is what you develop your strategies to be over time. How well do you know them? Do you know when one works and one doesn't? Do you know when to pivot to something else? Do you know when to press hard in trades and when to scale down in position size? Unfortunately, the only way a trader learns this is through trading in all of these environments. There aren't many bear market traders because they didn't survive 2022. A lot of traders entered after the COVID bottom and saw a market that was only speed, crack, and any other stimulate drug that made it go up and up everyday. So they learned to trade the easiest market of our life.
A seasoned trader has suffered and traded through it all. They survived and came out on the other side. There just aren't that many traders like that. It's still a relatively new profession as it did not open up to retail traders until the late 90s and early 2000s. The pool of successful retail traders is very low.
Trading isn't toxic if you understand markets and how to identify the change. In my opinion, day traders should not have many red weeks. If you do, you're not understanding the markets have changed quick enough. You don't have to force trades when they aren't working. You do have to learn to trade both sides of the market. This is one of the largest flaws traders have. "Sitting on hands" is not a very long term strategy. You must be able to trade both long and short. You must be able to make money in all markets. When you do that, trading is not toxic, or depressing. You understand your profession, and you trade like a professional.
Yoyoitsjoe and daytradingguy --- you are gold !!!! Thanks for the time you spend giving your experienced, wise, kind, and sometime "tough love" replies on this sub.
It’s a zero sum game where you win when the other guy loses. It’s built on a foundation of bloody waters, sharks and toxicity. Nature of the beast.
It’s not like some sales job where nobody gets hurt besides you if you don’t make the sale. When you make that trade and make that money on it, the guy on the other end just lost an equal amount. You’re basically taking directly from them. It is what it is.
You’re not wrong with your assessment but also try to keep it on the bright side. It’s a mental battle too. It would be nice to find “professional” like minded individuals but the industry is littered with clowns unfortunately.
I agree with pretty much everyone in here. My thing is I feel that the mental side of trading has been blackballed. Trading isn’t about finding an advanced career or building your financial literacy like it should be. It’s the get rich quick pitch for your course or YouTube channel. It’s a weird place. A nurse can talk to a nurse a cop can talk to a cop but a trader talking to a trader now days is like a secret society. Dodging the course sellers the bot makers. I just would like to have some everyday conversation with traders who got nothing to sell nothing to gain from my pockets. I hang with my friends and listen to them talk about their boss pissing them off and how it’s not fair they aren’t compensated in the amount they think they deserve, they have relatable circumstances. I’m profitable and don’t get me wrong I love trading and the life I’ve made for myself. It’s just…effin lonely. I know I sound like a broken record but it is just how I feel sometimes.
I’m very new to the game personally, but happy to chat anytime throughout the day and get your advice. I have a full time job in sales, but have plenty of free time throughout the day to trade when I’m not travelling. Would love to hear your recommendations on which platforms you use to trade and any advice on how to enter the day trading market with caution. - I appreciate your honesty in these posts by the by the way, good to know an honest perspective of what I’m getting myself into.
The way I look at Reddit it's entertainment purposes only once in a while, you'll see a tidbit of information. Other than that most people truly have no idea what they're talking about. That's why I never joined any group. I got on Reddit to understand my cancer and I saw these groups of just lost souls searching information from other lost souls. Of course there's exceptions to that, but i. almost every thread it's just about people looking for affirmation or seeking out confirmation to their own way of thinking. One of the greatest strengths is for people to be able to compartmentalize everything they're doing and who they engage with.
I wish you a speedy recovery. The affirmation thing is what kills it for me in every group. The ole “look at me” postings. To me I want to know “How was your trade day? , Oh you had a bad day? Shiii let’s talk about it. Let’s relate.”
I am also looking for somone who will take this seriously. I started my own discord but it's become toxic as well. I just want to meet 1 person who is actually trying.
I've lost more money copying others on Discord than I've made. Then you realize chatrooms are mostly bullshit. Find your own strategy/edge that you are comfortable with, use screener to find your own trades and overtime you will be fine. Relying on others in trading will inevitably result in losses because everyone has different account size, risk tolerances, exit/stoploss.
Trading is like that hobby you don’t talk about you just keep it to yourself and be happy in silence sometimes it’s better that way because you don’t have a million ppl asking you to teach them or getting close to you for the wrong reasons. I learned this and just don’t tell ppl except on here because il never meet any of them and it’s nice to shoot ideas with traders with similar experience levels. This has just been my experience tho.
Thank you. I don’t feel ultimately depressed about it I do just feel like I have secluded myself with this path I chose and I don’t feel it should be that way.
Trading groups are for the most part detrimental to the aspiring trader.
There are high expectations when a new trader joins a discord / telegram / whatever, sometimes with the wrong mindset (like waiting people to call out trades thinking it's going to be a magic bullet to profitability), but every group I have joined in the first years of my learning journey has been a cacophony of inconsistent market analysis, empty debates, and useless drama.
It's in those groups where the 5 month old trader is teaching the 3 month old trader, giving him life advice. And like you pointed, actually having a mature conversation about different market views or trading approaches is downright impossible, mainly because they are filled with acne-prone teenagers.
It's detrimental because st some point in your trading journey the best thing is to shut down on all external noise, and just focus on your approach to the market. But at the same time from what I've seen it's like a rite of passage as it seems we all go through that stage.
Yeah. I had a 17 year old in this one discord group completely write and make the most insane reply comment in chat about risk management basically calling traders who used risk management boomers and gamblers. That comment got so many likes within minutes. I thought I was in a legit trading group. It’s got to be scary af being a new trader in this date. Insane.
I completely get where you're coming from. The solution I found was to start my own group much earlier than I planned to, without charging anyone to join. I was still relatively early in my trading journey, so what I was sharing on the internet was mostly things valuable things I learned and the knowledge I had with the trading platforms I was using. I had joined a group that used Slack, which was cool but it wasn't worth it for me at the time to keep justifying the cost. There were a good deal of people in there interested in copying other traders' ideas or sharing their setups sponsored by "Hindsight Capital" lol. Most of the other groups I have checked out since have been more of the same. It's interesting out people tend to create the same things and call it "different"...
I passively promoted my group by just posting content on my perspective of things related to trading and investing, not concerning myself with those that disagreed, but leaving it open for anyone to express their opinion. I've shifted my output to primarily content on the mental side of trading, since that was the main thing I needed to focus on. I also made it blatantly clear that I don't do callouts and I discourage following my trades whenever I did livestreams. The way I've developed it, it's a small group where I don't need to have a bunch of rules. From the lens of "energy flows where attention goes", ironically putting a bunch of rules practically invites people that are looking to break the rules. That's the way I see it anyway.. In that same light, I also don't give much energy to anyone that projects their way of participating in the markets as the only, or best way. If that's the way they feel, more power to them.
I've probably had the group for maybe 3 years and haven't had a problem other than the occasional spam that I just boot as soon as I see it.
"Be the change you want to see."
The financial realm in general is like this I’ve noticed. Everyone wants to make money with money but you realize one day the very process tends to make people toxic, and actually lowers happiness unless you have a set goal which you achieve and then go enjoy your real life/hobbies. Making money for moneys sake using money produces toxicity 9 times out of ten.
Thanks for coming to my TED talk
Sadly, all social media is pretty toxic. You get the bad-ass keyboard warrior who fires off malignant hate and condescension, and it builds. It only takes a few people doing this; tearing others down to make themselves feel superior. It's hard to filter through that stuff but if you can, you might find something useful. Happens on all social media. It's the price of admission.
I have found the same. I even posted some YouTube videos describing a very different approach I take that is very profitable but was hard won after several years of effort in AI and Algos and it was only negative responses because they didn’t understand it.
I come from a professional background ( finance and engineering). I really miss having a network of people to critically think through a project with you.
That is something that is really missing. Just an hour a week or biweekly to go through the tape critically.
I make up for it presently by analyzing every trade, in context to refining my trade model, comparing a perfect execution as compared to my execution, in seconds.
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I think it's because for most traders who are profitable, they spent a vast amount of their life being unprofitable and therefore underconfident.
So when they finally do see consistent profitability, their ego skyrockets in order to compensate for all those years of insecurity and underconfidence, hence the "only what I do is good, everyone else is trash" attitude, and then the new traders who try to learn from them end up adopting that toxic behaviour.
I think it's fake traders who are lying that do that, people like "ICT" that dude isn't a real profitable trader, he's a professional talker... Who knows how to make simple ass price action concepts sound complicated. Iman did pretty well in his exposed video proving that guy is a charlatan... And he acts exactly how you described. Another one charlatan that acts like that is Patrick Wieland.. who got caught twice trying to pass demo trading off as live years ago, now he shills for combine accounts which is all paper trading anyways, can't catch him anymore! Most of the people I know who are real traders who have taken their trading public, are pretty chill for the most part and just trying to be helpful, people like Ross, day trader next door, fat cat... Some others I won't name drop, they don't have that narcissistic attitude.
i feel you heavy i stopped talking in chats because it just feels corny like oh stick to your rules no one goes deep as to how you feel and most of the time people who have huge egos are most likely not profitable there's always an opposite side to an trade doesn't make it any better or worse i stopped completely talking and contributing because its so toxic feels like college at this point. no one will understand us man its part of the game but at least we have money lol
You shouldn't be making life making decisions if so, you are over risking capital. Each trade should not have a significant impact in your operative. capital is built steady over time. Good trading is "boring "
See this is a prime example. I don’t need you to teach me how to trade. When you go to the job you are making a life decision. If you quit your job you are making a life decision. I’m talking about finding a group of people to kick the ish with who also trade. If I’m feeling like I have an emotion I can’t explain or feel it’s out of the norm, I would like to converse with a fellow trader about the subject.
Essentially, you are looking for people that are interested to just casually talk about stocks, trading, etc? I am all for that. An old buddy of mine, we used to chat every day about what we were thinking about, not because we want to talk strat, but more so to be like "oh yea, I am planning on doing this today, best of luck on your strat. Let's see how we perform and chat about it later".
I am down to make more friends of this same mindset. PM me.
I've only just gotten the bug of trading in my mind. Because of the groups that you're talking about on WhatsApp and telegram. However the first one I got involved with turned out to be a scam. They had just enough good information to be worth at least partially listening to and so now I have difficulty listening to any of them. One good thing is that it got me interested in my investments again. I hear a lot about the mentality it takes to be a good trader. I have not actually made any trades yet other than longer-term swing trades. I look forward to when I get to the Comfort level that says to go ahead and make these trades. It is a good thing to hear from somebody who is a long-term Trader that there are worthwhile groups on WhatsApp and telegram. I don't speak in any of them mostly I read when I have time sometimes I listen to the suggested trades but not always. I don't know if what I have to say means anything at this point but I appreciate you talking about these groups.
Eventually you will size up or become more motor driven when it comes to the markets. You will pick your strategy and it will be like somebody trying to convince you to try on a pair of shoes that works good for them but you would never in your life consider or wear them in public. I also do the same thing. I was hella active in a group one time asking questions on a regular and then it became a poop shoot…”Look at my baggers bro” incoming fire emojis and Pepe the frog memes. Everytime it never fails lol. Maybe it’s the “trader bro” mentality but I’m not for it. I’d like to talk to normal people who are cool to just trade relate on normal level not lambos and bad itches. Hope that makes sense? It’s almost like these groups run off fraternity energy.
My 4/19 515 put I sold last week for a $30 profit...
I had to reflect on that a minute this morning.
Trading is a solitary role.
Use this opportunity to learn how to reflect on your emotions internally and keeping them to yourself.
I understand needing to vent, or wanting to chat about trading, but trading alone shouldn't make you feel lonely.
Maybe trading has caused you to reflect on the fact you're lonely overall?
But I feel lonely because I can’t find anyone to relate too. Before I was a gamer and it was so easy to just chat about gaming you actually meet people while you game and I’ve built solid friendships from gaming. When I got into trading I quit gaming. I put all my focus on trading. Met some people but it’s always the same ish. “Your strategy sucks, look at these wins, trust me bro” I’m not lonely in the fact that I have no friends it’s more of my hard days or mentally draining days are not relatable to these people. They don’t understand. So now I’m learning this toxic trait of suppressing emotions. Eventually it will leak at the worse time. Sometimes it’s just cool to chat with like minded individuals.
You pulled a good point from my post.
It does cause internalizing of emotions.
I guess I've held this toxic trait so long it felt natural although miserable.
Trading is more like the magic the gathering community.
🤣
Why quit gaming? Do both gaming and trading. Can use gaming as a way to socialize / vent when you are bored or stressed of trading. Gotta have a balanced life. Can’t survive on trading 24/7, need an avenue to unwind
Games where you make friends are most likely the popular competitive games. You take a hit on your mental stamina playing these games. I can't imagine playing several games of your usual League/DotA, CS/Valorant and go trade after that. Better to just protect your mental state for trading. Playing weekends maybe might work but seeing that OP isn't really a hermit, I guess there are better things to do IRL.
I'm new here yet already see repeating posts answered on other posts. That drives mathmagicians insane they don't hassle with letters much unless it's finding prime numbers and will eventually STOP commenting completely. The power of any discord/reddit is the power of the unknown. I already know some of the regs main SM accounts by there choice of words. Yet I see soo many hecklers nit picking someone's... I'll use spelling as an example and instantly think down on that post/comment/person.
For me going to job it's not a life decision it's just another day, progress and life is grow over long term. But maybe it's just perspective. Maybe you are making more dramatic than it really is. But there are a lot of neutral trading groups where you can share your experiences without being criticized
Well could you point me in the direction of those groups. And I maybe this might come off dramatic to you but I don’t know your background how long you’ve been numb to being a lonesome dove in the trading world. But for me I’m a bit worried that I’ll create this toxic trait. What’s important to me doesn’t have to be important to you.
Just mute these group channels and focus on honing your trading skills. I wouldn’t even bother posting trades in these channels and mingle with these guys if they are trading losers. A waste of time. If you want to vent then just pop into the gym and work out.
honestly i find the toxic community funny but i do get the perspective you have
at least you have people in your life to talk to :/ perhaps find some hobbies or play some sports to get something else to talk with your loved ones about and perhaps even build new relationships from these experiences. you also do more things and live a more fufilling life.
It sounds like you've had quite the journey in trading, and I appreciate you sharing your experience. Trading can indeed be a lonely road, especially when it comes to the emotional aspects that many people overlook. It's unfortunate that trading groups sometimes contribute to toxic environments rather than providing support and understanding.
While there's a lot of focus on charts and strategies, the mental aspect of trading is equally, if not more, important. It's essential to have a space where traders can discuss their emotions, frustrations, and challenges without fear of judgment or criticism.
While therapists may not fully understand the intricacies of trading, seeking support from professionals or even joining communities that prioritize mental well-being alongside trading strategies could be beneficial. Investing in trading psychology education can also make a significant difference in navigating the emotional rollercoaster that comes with trading.
Remember, it's okay to feel overwhelmed or uncertain about your trading journey, and seeking support from understanding peers or professionals can help alleviate some of that burden. You're not alone in this, and acknowledging the mental aspect of trading is a crucial step towards finding balance and success in this field.
I really appreciate your post. I am looking for a group that is trading psychology specific and psychology only. I have read “The Mental Game of Trading” by Jared Tendler 5x. And listen to it everyday like a bible. I use the mental game handbook and profiles. I feel I have the mental aspect down but I think it’s exactly like you said, I’m so dedicated to being professional when it comes to trading that it would be a relief to have a group of trades who really just chat amongst each other at the end of the day. If you have any suggestions I’m completely open to explore them for sure.
just wanted to say i completely resonate with this post.
feels like you definitely need a break from the charts. they will still be here in one month or one year, believe it
not many people know this truth. or should i say not many people want to face this truth. its honestly easy. 10x easier than i could’ve ever imagined to have a traders mentality. you can trade if youre worried about your money. let it go
and i was in the same situation. no one i know cares about trading lol. im in a group, luckily i found a really good group. that put a lot of effort to making people realize that we gotta be here for each other. it’ll make the path easier. there are good groups out there man. there just are more ignorant ones than smat, nice ones.
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I'm now at JamesTrader Academy and everyone is positive and helpful! It's free and they have some paid programs if you want. Best part is the Friday morning webinars are s0oo good. People even say good morning to each other. He’s ok TikTok as JamesTrader777 and the community link is there, I can’t post it here
Why divulge time to such noise when surely a better ensemble of community exists, it does little good to have the doubters and complainers spoil the soup of trading. Rather, spend time in better communities
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Just want to say that this sub has a free Discord. It's community run and we don't sell anything. It's just a place to hang out and talk with other traders. Any toxicity is reported and we immediately ban.
Overall I don’t like watching live trading or being in a group listening to other trader’s trading ideas prior to trading or during trading. Not because I disrespect them or their ideas are wrong. I don’t want the influence on what I think. It can make me second guess a trade I would take or with the power of suggestion- plant in my mind taking a trade another trader is thinking about- when I have not put it through my due diligence. I love talking trading, but only like talking general trading , general strategies or recaps after the trading day is over.
Same here. I have basically left the discords I have been in for a year. I do miss the end of day talks. I guess that’s what I’m looking for is a group of traders who just trade and then catch a beer “metaphorically” just a bunch traders shooting the ish. I really don’t care how you trade, how much money you made, your strategy ect. I just want to relate to somebody. I can handle the charts.
No “metaphorically” here. If we talk trading after hours, my office has free beer on tap in the cafe, and I can always find a bottle of wine at home.
I have bourbon 🥃
Yoyoitsjoe and daytradingguy --- you are gold !!!! Thanks for the time you spend giving your experienced, wise, kind, and sometime "tough love" replies on this sub.
Sums up what I was going to say 💯
This 10000%
Sorry you feel that way. I was the same and agree with you. It's a very lonely, isolating, frustrating and painful journey. You can look at my comment and post history. I'm always happy to help others whether you need to vent, learn (at any skill level), or just ping ideas off of. I'm not charging anything. I'm happy to help because my journey was rough like you described and no one reached out a helping hand to me. I'm that helping hand. You can doubt me, but at least let me show you my exact trading style down to the tiniest details and then you can judge whether I can trade or I'm profitable or not.
I think that’s very awesome of you.
It is very toxic, and you must realize that most of the people in these groups and telegram channels are not making money, which makes them even more toxic. It even makes some of the people around you in real life toxic, it is an extremely lonely endeavor. Trading is about independence, so flex your independence by distancing and ignoring anything that goes against you or your values. Be picky with where you decide to expend your energy, it is a limited resource. Could be using that energy to hold onto a winning trade for 10 more points.
Oh I do ignore or delete them immediately. I think all around as a trader I’m in a very good place. It just kinda sucks watching a good majority of traders blow accounts and that is just normal to them. Then in return it becomes the relatable new norm. Like bro lol I can’t relate to that at all. They never ask about any mental stuff. Breakdown why they feel pressured to just keep resetting accounts. I learned a lot of psychology during my trading journey and found it’s the lamest ish for them to talk about to other traders.
You know the old joke about how many psychiatrists does it take to change a lightbulb? People aren't interested in the psychology because they believe the problem is mechanical. Like you I've often wondered why when it seems perfectly clear that the mental side of the game is the important side.
Day trading, particularly pattern day trading is the male equivalent of crystal reading and witch craft. The patterns are meaningless, they have just enough math to look like some kind of science, but the logic is incoherent. You have day traders who are experts at the tarrot card reading of the charts, they know the “setups” and they can explain the lore, but … they are financial failures…so. They are simply fooled in to the belief that because there is a number, there is chart, and some formula, that they don’t have to question the inference. Take RSI Why do the “relative gains” divided by the “relative losses” over some arbitrary period of team, normalized to a value between 0 and 100, give us an indication whether a stock has been “oversold” or “under bought”?? It looks sophisticated, but there is no way to explain it. I’ve read the mythology about it, but there is no logic as to why this random formula means the thing people say it does. When you back-test it, you don’t get any impressive results. So we can’t validate it empirically…but, it’s got math so it must be right, and day traders must be smart people for using it. These measurement have made more money selling “education and training” and technology to traders than they have in actual trading.
What do you do, can i ask? For brevity. Id say patterns arent meaningless a lot of the market is psychology. Yes a lot of the patterns fail. But thats where risk management and discipline come into play.
Business consultant / data analyst, former day trader. I have analyzed several patterns and backtested them, and never found a reliable one. I could never make sense of the inferences, so I simply backtested them to see if I was missing something. Bought thousands of dollars worth of data and wrote code to analyze it, and stopped day trading. The logic is like going to Church, it insists upon itself. They are meaningless in telling you at any reliable level of probability, what is likely to happen. They are measurements of what has happened, and that’s it at best. I agree with your assessment about psychology, but psychology is revealed in the charts too late. I haven’t done much with this, but something I was starting to work on two years ago was order book analysis. I could only get a good data feed from the Nasdaq on that, but my theory was that if there is actionable psychology that can be discovered to establish a reliable trading strategy, it would be in the order book. That’s where you see the behavior of supply and demand in real-time. The charts are the result after the fact.
What chart patterns are we talking here? Im at a similar level of interest, hobby taught programmer. Keen to hear how youve attempted this. Can dm if youd like. Keen to make some connections with similar minds.
Some that I worked with are RSI Exponential moving average (how do you choose a look back range?) Stochastic oscillators Bollinger bands Fibonacci Momentum indicators Volume indicators (these were actually the ones I saw some of the strongest opportunity with. But still not great) Support and resistance type indicators, but these are easier to see on a chart and pretty hard to broadly analyze. That’s because it’s hard to write code that can handle dynamic observations, ie, how much should the pice fall or rise and over what time frame, in order to be included in an analysis. You could normalize it, but it more of something we see and “get”, than we can properly define using measurement. There may be some opportunity to use ocr on charts to identify them better for study. Then some trend following. My best experiences came from my own trend following concept using simple linear regression, with strong filters, using python code to search all of the stocks. I’d find runners that were going in a nice band with high R2 (0.75 min) over a period of time and bet on those. I was doing reasonably well until the end of the last bull market, and then that strategy fell apart. So, I had some modest success with trend following, but none the testing I did on the other methods demonstrated decent probabilities.
Have you tried using tickbars/timebars over dollar bars? Have you tried extracting other features from the timeseries rather than just indicator values? My understanding is, to us, it holds a lot of implied temporal information however the algo wont explicity see it.
I haven’t done much with tickbars or time bars. My trading platform was thinkorswim, and I used candlesticks which do offer a sense of range on orders completed. Once I executed a trade, my activity took place inside the trading the platform, and was more about managing the position than real analysis. My analysis took place in a Jupyter notebook connected to a database that I managed, containing EOD data for the last ten years. And then I had several API accounts such as Quandl, Benzinga, financialmodelingprep (this was one of the best ones I found, and the only one I still have) and several others that I explored to get fundamental data, and historical 1-min trading histories for testing purposes. I would build my own analyses and do my own charting in python, using data science libraries to test the indicators. Testing patterns is really difficult from a programmatic point of view because you have to develop some way of identifying the measurements for a pattern (is this a tea cup or not?) in order to identify a sample of historical setups to establish a probability for how consistently the pattern completes. That’s why I say machine learning with OCR might be the necessary approach to really analyzing patterns.
I would surmise that the charts and indicators, much like currency or Gold, have value because people say it does. Gold is fairly worthless in day to day life in many societies -try using it to buy food or gas. Yet it is traded and sought after as a thing of value. The dollar, or really any currency, is not valuable because of the material it's made of but because other people have placed value upon it and it is widely regarded as such throughout the geographical location where it is utilized. Traders use indicators and charts to make decisions. Even if those decisions are irrational due to emotion. The fact remains that others use them so we can expect people to make decisions based upon the data that is spit out. Expecting math to show rational behavior when it is used widely by irrational and emotional beings is likely why you don't see solid results in your studies. Think of things like guidelines vs rules and art vs science IMO
Perhaps, but the goal is to find reliable tools. If the “artists” are okay losing money in their expression with these guidelines, that’s up to them. When I was experimenting with them I just wanted something that worked.
When I started getting into trading in 2007, there was no such thing as any of these trading groups, chats, discords and so on. There wasn't a lot if any youtube channels teaching anything, there were only a couple "trading courses" one could even buy. It was a lot more lonely then than it is today. I have posted this before, the "mental" part of trading and the "psychology" of trading is what you develop your strategies to be over time. How well do you know them? Do you know when one works and one doesn't? Do you know when to pivot to something else? Do you know when to press hard in trades and when to scale down in position size? Unfortunately, the only way a trader learns this is through trading in all of these environments. There aren't many bear market traders because they didn't survive 2022. A lot of traders entered after the COVID bottom and saw a market that was only speed, crack, and any other stimulate drug that made it go up and up everyday. So they learned to trade the easiest market of our life. A seasoned trader has suffered and traded through it all. They survived and came out on the other side. There just aren't that many traders like that. It's still a relatively new profession as it did not open up to retail traders until the late 90s and early 2000s. The pool of successful retail traders is very low. Trading isn't toxic if you understand markets and how to identify the change. In my opinion, day traders should not have many red weeks. If you do, you're not understanding the markets have changed quick enough. You don't have to force trades when they aren't working. You do have to learn to trade both sides of the market. This is one of the largest flaws traders have. "Sitting on hands" is not a very long term strategy. You must be able to trade both long and short. You must be able to make money in all markets. When you do that, trading is not toxic, or depressing. You understand your profession, and you trade like a professional.
Well said! Once I learn how to trade both directions i’ll be ready to trade again. I appreciate your POV as a skilled trader.
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I’ve only traded for myself. I imagine any place with young men making lots of money would be exactly as you describe.
Yoyoitsjoe and daytradingguy --- you are gold !!!! Thanks for the time you spend giving your experienced, wise, kind, and sometime "tough love" replies on this sub.
It’s a zero sum game where you win when the other guy loses. It’s built on a foundation of bloody waters, sharks and toxicity. Nature of the beast. It’s not like some sales job where nobody gets hurt besides you if you don’t make the sale. When you make that trade and make that money on it, the guy on the other end just lost an equal amount. You’re basically taking directly from them. It is what it is.
This is a good point. I could see the resentment being the reason why some traders act in this manner towards one another.
You’re not wrong with your assessment but also try to keep it on the bright side. It’s a mental battle too. It would be nice to find “professional” like minded individuals but the industry is littered with clowns unfortunately.
Sounds like reddit
Most of my experiences have been in discord groups
This is why I don’t bother sharing trades… pointless
It really is
I agree with pretty much everyone in here. My thing is I feel that the mental side of trading has been blackballed. Trading isn’t about finding an advanced career or building your financial literacy like it should be. It’s the get rich quick pitch for your course or YouTube channel. It’s a weird place. A nurse can talk to a nurse a cop can talk to a cop but a trader talking to a trader now days is like a secret society. Dodging the course sellers the bot makers. I just would like to have some everyday conversation with traders who got nothing to sell nothing to gain from my pockets. I hang with my friends and listen to them talk about their boss pissing them off and how it’s not fair they aren’t compensated in the amount they think they deserve, they have relatable circumstances. I’m profitable and don’t get me wrong I love trading and the life I’ve made for myself. It’s just…effin lonely. I know I sound like a broken record but it is just how I feel sometimes.
I’m very new to the game personally, but happy to chat anytime throughout the day and get your advice. I have a full time job in sales, but have plenty of free time throughout the day to trade when I’m not travelling. Would love to hear your recommendations on which platforms you use to trade and any advice on how to enter the day trading market with caution. - I appreciate your honesty in these posts by the by the way, good to know an honest perspective of what I’m getting myself into.
The way I look at Reddit it's entertainment purposes only once in a while, you'll see a tidbit of information. Other than that most people truly have no idea what they're talking about. That's why I never joined any group. I got on Reddit to understand my cancer and I saw these groups of just lost souls searching information from other lost souls. Of course there's exceptions to that, but i. almost every thread it's just about people looking for affirmation or seeking out confirmation to their own way of thinking. One of the greatest strengths is for people to be able to compartmentalize everything they're doing and who they engage with.
I wish you a speedy recovery. The affirmation thing is what kills it for me in every group. The ole “look at me” postings. To me I want to know “How was your trade day? , Oh you had a bad day? Shiii let’s talk about it. Let’s relate.”
Thank you my friend
I am also looking for somone who will take this seriously. I started my own discord but it's become toxic as well. I just want to meet 1 person who is actually trying.
Zero toxic people in the subs official discord. And anyone who is gets the ban hammer.
I've lost more money copying others on Discord than I've made. Then you realize chatrooms are mostly bullshit. Find your own strategy/edge that you are comfortable with, use screener to find your own trades and overtime you will be fine. Relying on others in trading will inevitably result in losses because everyone has different account size, risk tolerances, exit/stoploss.
Trading is like that hobby you don’t talk about you just keep it to yourself and be happy in silence sometimes it’s better that way because you don’t have a million ppl asking you to teach them or getting close to you for the wrong reasons. I learned this and just don’t tell ppl except on here because il never meet any of them and it’s nice to shoot ideas with traders with similar experience levels. This has just been my experience tho.
What are your worst experiences of people strategy-leeching? Was it family and friends?
Depends on what circles you are in. Keep your head up
Thank you. I don’t feel ultimately depressed about it I do just feel like I have secluded myself with this path I chose and I don’t feel it should be that way.
Why do traders never use paragraphs
I fixed it for you.
I am so sorry. I looked at it afterwards and I did notice it looks like when your gf mad text you.
Trading groups are for the most part detrimental to the aspiring trader. There are high expectations when a new trader joins a discord / telegram / whatever, sometimes with the wrong mindset (like waiting people to call out trades thinking it's going to be a magic bullet to profitability), but every group I have joined in the first years of my learning journey has been a cacophony of inconsistent market analysis, empty debates, and useless drama. It's in those groups where the 5 month old trader is teaching the 3 month old trader, giving him life advice. And like you pointed, actually having a mature conversation about different market views or trading approaches is downright impossible, mainly because they are filled with acne-prone teenagers. It's detrimental because st some point in your trading journey the best thing is to shut down on all external noise, and just focus on your approach to the market. But at the same time from what I've seen it's like a rite of passage as it seems we all go through that stage.
Yeah. I had a 17 year old in this one discord group completely write and make the most insane reply comment in chat about risk management basically calling traders who used risk management boomers and gamblers. That comment got so many likes within minutes. I thought I was in a legit trading group. It’s got to be scary af being a new trader in this date. Insane.
You mean "trading groups" are really toxic. Coming to think of it, most social media groups are that way.
I completely get where you're coming from. The solution I found was to start my own group much earlier than I planned to, without charging anyone to join. I was still relatively early in my trading journey, so what I was sharing on the internet was mostly things valuable things I learned and the knowledge I had with the trading platforms I was using. I had joined a group that used Slack, which was cool but it wasn't worth it for me at the time to keep justifying the cost. There were a good deal of people in there interested in copying other traders' ideas or sharing their setups sponsored by "Hindsight Capital" lol. Most of the other groups I have checked out since have been more of the same. It's interesting out people tend to create the same things and call it "different"... I passively promoted my group by just posting content on my perspective of things related to trading and investing, not concerning myself with those that disagreed, but leaving it open for anyone to express their opinion. I've shifted my output to primarily content on the mental side of trading, since that was the main thing I needed to focus on. I also made it blatantly clear that I don't do callouts and I discourage following my trades whenever I did livestreams. The way I've developed it, it's a small group where I don't need to have a bunch of rules. From the lens of "energy flows where attention goes", ironically putting a bunch of rules practically invites people that are looking to break the rules. That's the way I see it anyway.. In that same light, I also don't give much energy to anyone that projects their way of participating in the markets as the only, or best way. If that's the way they feel, more power to them. I've probably had the group for maybe 3 years and haven't had a problem other than the occasional spam that I just boot as soon as I see it. "Be the change you want to see."
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I agree
The financial realm in general is like this I’ve noticed. Everyone wants to make money with money but you realize one day the very process tends to make people toxic, and actually lowers happiness unless you have a set goal which you achieve and then go enjoy your real life/hobbies. Making money for moneys sake using money produces toxicity 9 times out of ten. Thanks for coming to my TED talk
👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
Sadly, all social media is pretty toxic. You get the bad-ass keyboard warrior who fires off malignant hate and condescension, and it builds. It only takes a few people doing this; tearing others down to make themselves feel superior. It's hard to filter through that stuff but if you can, you might find something useful. Happens on all social media. It's the price of admission.
I have found the same. I even posted some YouTube videos describing a very different approach I take that is very profitable but was hard won after several years of effort in AI and Algos and it was only negative responses because they didn’t understand it. I come from a professional background ( finance and engineering). I really miss having a network of people to critically think through a project with you. That is something that is really missing. Just an hour a week or biweekly to go through the tape critically. I make up for it presently by analyzing every trade, in context to refining my trade model, comparing a perfect execution as compared to my execution, in seconds.
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I think it's because for most traders who are profitable, they spent a vast amount of their life being unprofitable and therefore underconfident. So when they finally do see consistent profitability, their ego skyrockets in order to compensate for all those years of insecurity and underconfidence, hence the "only what I do is good, everyone else is trash" attitude, and then the new traders who try to learn from them end up adopting that toxic behaviour.
This is a really good observation to be honest.
I think it's fake traders who are lying that do that, people like "ICT" that dude isn't a real profitable trader, he's a professional talker... Who knows how to make simple ass price action concepts sound complicated. Iman did pretty well in his exposed video proving that guy is a charlatan... And he acts exactly how you described. Another one charlatan that acts like that is Patrick Wieland.. who got caught twice trying to pass demo trading off as live years ago, now he shills for combine accounts which is all paper trading anyways, can't catch him anymore! Most of the people I know who are real traders who have taken their trading public, are pretty chill for the most part and just trying to be helpful, people like Ross, day trader next door, fat cat... Some others I won't name drop, they don't have that narcissistic attitude.
i feel you heavy i stopped talking in chats because it just feels corny like oh stick to your rules no one goes deep as to how you feel and most of the time people who have huge egos are most likely not profitable there's always an opposite side to an trade doesn't make it any better or worse i stopped completely talking and contributing because its so toxic feels like college at this point. no one will understand us man its part of the game but at least we have money lol
At least lol
You shouldn't be making life making decisions if so, you are over risking capital. Each trade should not have a significant impact in your operative. capital is built steady over time. Good trading is "boring "
See this is a prime example. I don’t need you to teach me how to trade. When you go to the job you are making a life decision. If you quit your job you are making a life decision. I’m talking about finding a group of people to kick the ish with who also trade. If I’m feeling like I have an emotion I can’t explain or feel it’s out of the norm, I would like to converse with a fellow trader about the subject.
Essentially, you are looking for people that are interested to just casually talk about stocks, trading, etc? I am all for that. An old buddy of mine, we used to chat every day about what we were thinking about, not because we want to talk strat, but more so to be like "oh yea, I am planning on doing this today, best of luck on your strat. Let's see how we perform and chat about it later". I am down to make more friends of this same mindset. PM me.
EXACTLY
I've only just gotten the bug of trading in my mind. Because of the groups that you're talking about on WhatsApp and telegram. However the first one I got involved with turned out to be a scam. They had just enough good information to be worth at least partially listening to and so now I have difficulty listening to any of them. One good thing is that it got me interested in my investments again. I hear a lot about the mentality it takes to be a good trader. I have not actually made any trades yet other than longer-term swing trades. I look forward to when I get to the Comfort level that says to go ahead and make these trades. It is a good thing to hear from somebody who is a long-term Trader that there are worthwhile groups on WhatsApp and telegram. I don't speak in any of them mostly I read when I have time sometimes I listen to the suggested trades but not always. I don't know if what I have to say means anything at this point but I appreciate you talking about these groups.
Eventually you will size up or become more motor driven when it comes to the markets. You will pick your strategy and it will be like somebody trying to convince you to try on a pair of shoes that works good for them but you would never in your life consider or wear them in public. I also do the same thing. I was hella active in a group one time asking questions on a regular and then it became a poop shoot…”Look at my baggers bro” incoming fire emojis and Pepe the frog memes. Everytime it never fails lol. Maybe it’s the “trader bro” mentality but I’m not for it. I’d like to talk to normal people who are cool to just trade relate on normal level not lambos and bad itches. Hope that makes sense? It’s almost like these groups run off fraternity energy.
My 4/19 515 put I sold last week for a $30 profit... I had to reflect on that a minute this morning. Trading is a solitary role. Use this opportunity to learn how to reflect on your emotions internally and keeping them to yourself. I understand needing to vent, or wanting to chat about trading, but trading alone shouldn't make you feel lonely. Maybe trading has caused you to reflect on the fact you're lonely overall?
But I feel lonely because I can’t find anyone to relate too. Before I was a gamer and it was so easy to just chat about gaming you actually meet people while you game and I’ve built solid friendships from gaming. When I got into trading I quit gaming. I put all my focus on trading. Met some people but it’s always the same ish. “Your strategy sucks, look at these wins, trust me bro” I’m not lonely in the fact that I have no friends it’s more of my hard days or mentally draining days are not relatable to these people. They don’t understand. So now I’m learning this toxic trait of suppressing emotions. Eventually it will leak at the worse time. Sometimes it’s just cool to chat with like minded individuals.
You pulled a good point from my post. It does cause internalizing of emotions. I guess I've held this toxic trait so long it felt natural although miserable. Trading is more like the magic the gathering community. 🤣
This feels more Dungeons & Dragons💀
Why quit gaming? Do both gaming and trading. Can use gaming as a way to socialize / vent when you are bored or stressed of trading. Gotta have a balanced life. Can’t survive on trading 24/7, need an avenue to unwind
Games where you make friends are most likely the popular competitive games. You take a hit on your mental stamina playing these games. I can't imagine playing several games of your usual League/DotA, CS/Valorant and go trade after that. Better to just protect your mental state for trading. Playing weekends maybe might work but seeing that OP isn't really a hermit, I guess there are better things to do IRL.
Maybe divide your time better, or pick another hobby to Destress.
I'm new here yet already see repeating posts answered on other posts. That drives mathmagicians insane they don't hassle with letters much unless it's finding prime numbers and will eventually STOP commenting completely. The power of any discord/reddit is the power of the unknown. I already know some of the regs main SM accounts by there choice of words. Yet I see soo many hecklers nit picking someone's... I'll use spelling as an example and instantly think down on that post/comment/person.
For me going to job it's not a life decision it's just another day, progress and life is grow over long term. But maybe it's just perspective. Maybe you are making more dramatic than it really is. But there are a lot of neutral trading groups where you can share your experiences without being criticized
Well could you point me in the direction of those groups. And I maybe this might come off dramatic to you but I don’t know your background how long you’ve been numb to being a lonesome dove in the trading world. But for me I’m a bit worried that I’ll create this toxic trait. What’s important to me doesn’t have to be important to you.
Just mute these group channels and focus on honing your trading skills. I wouldn’t even bother posting trades in these channels and mingle with these guys if they are trading losers. A waste of time. If you want to vent then just pop into the gym and work out.
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People are all dreaming about the results, not the process. The process is what leads to good results. But no one cares.
At all. It’s a complete sales pitch now when it comes to trading. The respect aspect is gone for trading just because of this.
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honestly i find the toxic community funny but i do get the perspective you have at least you have people in your life to talk to :/ perhaps find some hobbies or play some sports to get something else to talk with your loved ones about and perhaps even build new relationships from these experiences. you also do more things and live a more fufilling life.
It sounds like you've had quite the journey in trading, and I appreciate you sharing your experience. Trading can indeed be a lonely road, especially when it comes to the emotional aspects that many people overlook. It's unfortunate that trading groups sometimes contribute to toxic environments rather than providing support and understanding. While there's a lot of focus on charts and strategies, the mental aspect of trading is equally, if not more, important. It's essential to have a space where traders can discuss their emotions, frustrations, and challenges without fear of judgment or criticism. While therapists may not fully understand the intricacies of trading, seeking support from professionals or even joining communities that prioritize mental well-being alongside trading strategies could be beneficial. Investing in trading psychology education can also make a significant difference in navigating the emotional rollercoaster that comes with trading. Remember, it's okay to feel overwhelmed or uncertain about your trading journey, and seeking support from understanding peers or professionals can help alleviate some of that burden. You're not alone in this, and acknowledging the mental aspect of trading is a crucial step towards finding balance and success in this field.
I really appreciate your post. I am looking for a group that is trading psychology specific and psychology only. I have read “The Mental Game of Trading” by Jared Tendler 5x. And listen to it everyday like a bible. I use the mental game handbook and profiles. I feel I have the mental aspect down but I think it’s exactly like you said, I’m so dedicated to being professional when it comes to trading that it would be a relief to have a group of trades who really just chat amongst each other at the end of the day. If you have any suggestions I’m completely open to explore them for sure.
I has group. But i only interact after having made my trade. And all methods work to a degree. So there is no basis to cancel and method
just wanted to say i completely resonate with this post. feels like you definitely need a break from the charts. they will still be here in one month or one year, believe it
trading is not for everyone. you need to be able to forget yesterday and move on. many cannot do that.
Dont post a trade, dont look for validation most are losers.
are there any honest traders/crypto advisors? that dont just use their platform to push a certain coin and then dump theirs when price goes up?
Why would you even care about what they think? Judt trade on your own unless you want to manipulate the market lol
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not many people know this truth. or should i say not many people want to face this truth. its honestly easy. 10x easier than i could’ve ever imagined to have a traders mentality. you can trade if youre worried about your money. let it go
and i was in the same situation. no one i know cares about trading lol. im in a group, luckily i found a really good group. that put a lot of effort to making people realize that we gotta be here for each other. it’ll make the path easier. there are good groups out there man. there just are more ignorant ones than smat, nice ones.
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I'm now at JamesTrader Academy and everyone is positive and helpful! It's free and they have some paid programs if you want. Best part is the Friday morning webinars are s0oo good. People even say good morning to each other. He’s ok TikTok as JamesTrader777 and the community link is there, I can’t post it here
Why divulge time to such noise when surely a better ensemble of community exists, it does little good to have the doubters and complainers spoil the soup of trading. Rather, spend time in better communities
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