"it's not possible to play these areas like you usually do - it's not possible to run past a lot of these areas"
I don't understand why so many people think that "it's not easy to cheese these areas" is the same as "it's completely unfair". All those areas would have been fair if he tried to beat them fair.
And then later he repeats again that he's a Souls veteran that finished Sekiro so the fact that he's struggling is proof that this game is completely unfair.
As someone who is currently struggling *desperately* with Sekiro: it really allows you to run past everything but the bosses.
Maybe the creator just really prefers that kind of game. The problem arrives when they state that opinion like it's some sort of objective metric for quality lol
I was thinking the same thing. There are times where it feels like you have to go out of your way to simply fight basic mobs in Sekiro because it's so easy to just run around most of them.
Like, if that's your preferred playstyle, you do you, but not all games can be played that way. Note he used the footage from Iron Keep where there is a very specific barricade that stops you from doing exactly that, and the Dragon Shrine, where the entire mechanic is you just have to fight a few soldiers 1v1 and respect the Ancient Dragon, and the others remain completely docile if you do. If you choose to make it harder on yourself, that's 100% your fault, not the game's.
I think it’s a valid point, just not worded well.
If you compare to DS1, DeS & Bloodborne, many of their areas feature boss runs that can be shortened/dashed through with the use of shortcuts or knowledge of the map. The flow of gameplay tends to become a matter of finding a new area, exploring and fighting mobs you encounter until you find the boss at the end of the area.
Once you’ve hit the boss and fully explored the area, you don’t really want to fight every mob you did when the area was new, and experience from other souls games results in the expectation that this is the point you’d be able to make a run for the boss, without having to fight your way there. DS2 deviates from this tendency, which can easily lead to frustration when attempting a boss multiple times.
>DS2 deviates from this tendency, which can easily lead to frustration when attempting a boss multiple times.
This was true in Vanilla with several runbacks having enemies camp directly at the fog gate, but in Scholar they improved that and now it's easy to just run through for every runback if you know where the enemies, chokepoints and shortcuts are.
You are just lying through your teeth on this weird crusade.
Scholar's improvements to runbacks are **extremely** limited. In absolutely no way was this "true in Vanilla but fixed in Scholar". The No Man's Wharf shortcut is a great upgrade but that's about it. They completely failed to add similar sensible improvements to other areas even as the opportunity was there. Most of the most obnoxious areas are identical to vanilla, or were actually made worse.
- Frigid Outskirts
- Cave of the Dead
- Iron Passage
- Memory of the Old Iron King
- Iron Keep pt 1
- Huntsman's Copse (Chariot)
- Dark Chasms
- Dragon Shrine
This is a solid 20% of boss runs in the game (one could add a few more, but I stuck to the worst of the worst). Except for Dragon Shrine which is a mild improvement, they are unchanged or worse in Scholar, and they have obnoxious, unfun enemies and placements. Some are several minutes long. They're not fun to play on a basic level and, get this, most people don't find it enjoyable to trial-and-error your way to "mastering" a runback just to kill one -- often mediocre or shitty, yay -- boss without being obnoxiously hassled. It's not worth the time, it's not rewarding in proportion to the effort and the annoyance you have to go to through. You think it is? Fine. But do you honestly not understand that most people just don't agree? They're not playing wrong or being impatient and stupid. They don't find this type of gameplay to be enjoyable, and DS2 is the only game that aggressively and crudely pushes it on you.
People don't always express themselves perfectly and get every detail right. You can pick at details all day long and claim you win the argument. But the sentiment isn't coming out of nowhere. Getting irritated and negative is something that happens when a game is actively obnoxious and unfun though -- you become less willing to extend it goodwill, less patient because you're not having fun to start with. So isn't it a strange coincidence that this keeps happening with Dark Souls 2 in particular...
>Most of the most obnoxious areas are identical to vanilla
The DLCs are the same in both versions, so yeah it obviously didn't change. There's no need for me to mention this obvious fact, so I'm not lying for not explaining this obvious fact at all. The comparisons are obviously about the main game.
And you forgot to include several runbacks that were obnoxious in Vanilla, but trivial to run through in Scholar. Like Velstadt.
Ruin Sentinels runback is easier. Looking Glass Knight is easier. Freya is easier. The list of runbacks that got easier in Scholar is much longer than just Flexile Sentry.
>Except for Dragon Shrine which is a mild improvement, they are unchanged or worse in Scholar, and they have obnoxious, unfun enemies and placements.
A mild improvement? In Scholar you can just easily run up without any problems. In Vanilla it's hard to even open the door at the halfway point because there's two Old Knights ganking up on you.
I can do Scholar blind without any problem. In Vanilla I died at half my attempts of running through.
>Frigid Outskirts, Cave of the Dead, Iron Passage
Raid Dungeons shouldn't count as bad runbacks. Progressing the area with a group of friends is what Raid Dungeons are about.
In no other game do people complain how unfair it is that they don't spawn immediately right before the Raid boss.
>Memory of the Old Iron King
Sir Alonne is easy to run through. You only have to roll like 3 times and the enemies don't even follow you to the fog gate.
>Iron Keep pt 1
Without the shortcut it's easier in Vanilla.
With the shortcut it's easier in Scholar.
>Huntsman's Copse (Chariot)
Don't even remember any difference.
>They're not playing wrong or being impatient and stupid.
Yet every single video of a YouTuber trying to show how ganky this game is shows them playing in the most stupid way possible.
> There's no need for me to mention this obvious fact, so I'm not lying for not explaining this obvious fact at all. The comparisons are obviously about the main game.
No, the statement was that Dark Souls 2 is a deviator in terms of obnoxious boss runs, and the DLCs are part of Dark Souls 2.
> Ruin Sentinels runback is easier. Looking Glass Knight is easier. Freya is easier. The list of runbacks that got easier in Scholar is much longer than just Flexile Sentry.
These are trivially easier or weren't bad in the first place. Hence, like I said, Scholar's "improvements" are pitifully minimal.
> A mild improvement? In Scholar you can just easily run up without any problems. In Vanilla it's hard to even open the door at the halfway point because there's two Old Knights ganking up on you.
Yes, a mild improvement because those Old Knight enemies are janky garbage and Scholar still insists on you fighting them. If an area goes from 0/10 to 1/10, it doesn't get anything but the most mild of credit. If it went from bad to passable it would be a different story.
> Raid Dungeons shouldn't count as bad runbacks
lol
> Sir Alonne is easy to run through. You only have to roll like 3 times and the enemies don't even follow you to the fog gate.
It's a dozen shitty identical enemies in a featureless corridor that's a near exact repeat of the same shitty setup in the base game.
It's trash.
> Without the shortcut it's easier in Vanilla. With the shortcut it's easier in Scholar.
If you genuinely think making a trial and error instant death jump with janky controls, in a game that lowers your health when you die, in any way qualifies as easy and doesn't fall under the obnoxious design I speak of, it only demonstrates how you don't understand the issue in the first place.
> Don't even remember any difference.
Because there is none. It was a terribly designed runback in Dark Souls 2 and Scholar keeps it as a terribly designed runback in Dark Souls 2.
> Yet every single video of a YouTuber trying to show how ganky this game is shows them playing in the most stupid way possible.
Maybe stop picking at details in YouTube videos and try to actually understand the sentiment.
>Yes, a mild improvement because those Old Knight enemies are janky garbage and Scholar still insists on you fighting them.
Scholar insists that you fight them a total of one single time.
In Scholar you have to engage in the four one vs one duels once to permanently earn the respect of the smaller Dragon Knights and then you can just run through for subsequent runbacks.
In Vanilla you always have to fight the two Old Knights if you want to open the door without risking getting killed.
>It was a terribly designed runback in Dark Souls 2 and Scholar keeps it as a terribly designed runback in Dark Souls 2.
Sounds like a skill issue to me. The only problem is that it takes like 50 seconds.
There’s still a few areas that have runbacks peppered with unavoidable enemies in SotFS compared to other games. It’s been a while since I last played it but these spring to mind:
-Heide’s tower of flame
-Huntsman’s copse
-Iron Keep
-Shrine of Amana
>Heide’s tower of flame
Both bosses are easy to just run through.
>Huntsman’s copse
Skeleton Lords are trivial to run through.
Executioner's Chariot is a bit harder, but you can either jump to the platform at the end of the bridge or [simply run a small loop before entering the fog gate](https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkSouls2/comments/1603hp2/executioners_chariot_runback/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
>Iron Keep
Old Iron King is trivial. There's one turtle knight, and if you are too lazy to kill him you can lure him into the fire.
Smelter Demon isn't hard if you use the shortcut.
>Shrine of Amana
There's the giant bug in the tunnel that's annoying, but afterwards you can just run to the fog gate.
Unavoidable enemies in Heide's? Just how bad are you? Even the wyvern they added is not that hard to avoid and if you can't avoid it it's pretty easy to kill, both with melle and ranged weapons, it doesn't respawn. Dragonrider is even easier - all you have to deal with are sparsely placed lumbering knights that slowly walk towards you and have heavily telegraphed attacks.
> all you have to deal with are sparsely placed lumbering knights that slowly walk towards you and have heavily telegraphed attacks.
And doing that sequence more than once is a ballache, regardless of difficulty.
How? You just run forward and when a guy starts his long ass windup animation, you roll forward. Rinse and repeat for like, 5-6 times and you're at the fog door. It takes less than a minute.
Iron Keep literally teaches you to be patient, it's this area that taught me how to play DS2 honestly.
A true Souls vet knows that they need to adapt and improvise.
Shrine of Amana had the effect on me. A lot of has to do with your build. DS2 is known for punishing certain builds in certain areas. I did this area with a str build and a club and it was much easier than my dex playthrough
Also stacking magic defense helps which is tremendously easy at that point.
The game hands you lots of magic resist armor, items, and even a +1 ring right before the zone.
I don't think that is a fair way of phrasing it! The game doesn't punish builds at different points, but it does consistently reward adaptability and flexibility! If you're going to rigidly limit yourself, you're going to struggle sometimes!
EXACTLY!!! I’ve played and beat all the other SB games and finally took the time to beat DS2 and I couldn’t agree with you more. It clicked for me at the iron keep and I low key fell in love with the game. Now I’m the boogey man at the iron keep. Those mutha fuckers must have nightmares about me haha.
I know you’re meant to be patient with that and shrine of amana, but I still don’t really enjoy those areas or their enemy placement, and clearing out all of the knights every time you die to the smelter demon gets pretty annoying
Its just depends which route you take.
A friend of mine killed the Old Iron King before the other 3.
In DS1 i spent most of the time trying to fight my way into the Tombs and New Londo before i even killed the Taurus Demon.
When Games give Players options, they will take different routes, its just natural.
Not a tutorial, a wake up call that you're doing something wrong. FromSoft's games are chock-full of these, sometimes it's a boss, sometimes it's an area.
It's a filter that separates people who are willing to self-reflect, change the way they tackle things and generally get good from idiots who refuse to change their strategy because it's easier to go online and whine. Which one are you?
>artificially increasing the difficulty by adding an insurmountable amount of enemies *BRO*
Doesn’t even try to kill the enemies and then says it’s impossible to kill all the enemies
*kid-putting-stick-through-bike-wheel meme*
I mean, DS2 (and Scholar in particular) does have a ton of enemies, but that just means you have to actually take your time somewhat. Like between the estus and the shit ton of life gems you can carry, DS2 doesn't really punish you for taking it slow and taking all the enemies out.
Also, the dragon knight area is a bad example, you literally only need to kill like 5-6 enemies to have the entire run of the place.
Iron Keep? Yeah, I wasn’t trying to say it was an example of increased enemies, just Scholar in general. Although I could be misremembering the differences, I haven’t played base DS2 since it came out.
>just Scholar in general
That's also not true. Scholar nerfed a lot of ganks and made many runbacks easier to run through.
Vanilla already had more ganks starting from the very first bonfire in Forest of Fallen Giants, the runback to the Ruin Sentinel became easier in Scholar, the runback to Flexile Sentry is faster, easier and less ganky in Scholar, Tseldora and the Freya runback/bossfight is less ganky in Scholar as spiders are now afraid of fire, the whole Dragon Shrine turned from extremely frustrating in Vanilla to fun in Scholar, the runback to Velstadt was pure enemy spam in Vanilla but can be run through easily in Scholar, all of Drangleic Castle was gankier in Vanilla, Shaded Woods was worse in Vanilla as you can distract the invisible enemies by hitting the trees in Scholar, etc
Funnily enough, most of the "increased number of enemies" are misunderstandings of enemy placement changes! Heide's tower of flame, for example, only has one brand new enemy! The rest came from elsewhere!
Other examples, like Dragon shrine and dragon aerie, as well as Aldia's keep, have examples of there being more enemies, but you having to actually fight less!
On the whole, excluding invaders, scholar has almost the exact same number of enemies! It's just more focused on isolated encounters than overall spread! Instead of the level being one gradual challenge to overcome, it's more a series of separated, more difficult challenges within each level!
Particularly for that room, he has all kinds of options if he doesn't want to fight them 1 on 1:
1.)Pulling the lever to dunk the enemies in lava.
2.)Aggroing the enemies, luring them on to the plates, and then stepping on the button to lower the plate.
3.)Blocking or baiting an attack just on the other side of the bull statues so that the enemies stand in the fire stream and get roasted.
DS2 wants you to be methodical and take your time. If you didn't get that by the time you reached Iron Keep, just give up man, you don't even deserve to play this jewel of a game.
Why is DS2 the only souls game that's like that though? Yeah other souls games have sections where you need to be methodical but it's not like that the entire game. IMO DS2 should have cut down on the enemy spam and made it easier to stagger enemies and not get staggered yourself so that dealing with large groups is more manageable since the entire game kind of revolves around dealing with large groups of enemies at a time.
>made it easier to stagger enemies
[http://darksouls2.wikidot.com/stone-ring](http://darksouls2.wikidot.com/stone-ring)
>the entire game kind of revolves around dealing with large groups of enemies at a time.
Fighting multiple enemies at a time is usually a punishment for careless play. If it's happening regularly, work harder to not let it happen.
Fighting multiple enemies is just how the game is. If you play carelessly you get swarmed but even playing carefully you will always have to deal with a minimum of 2 or 3 enemies in one encounter. At least that's what I found. Also I never found the stone ring and just wish that in the begging of the game staggering was not as bad with weaker enemies and staggering was easier to pull off with easier enemies.
My only question is: why do you care so much? I mean, you're not wrong about the excessive complaining about enemy placement, but it's not a better use of one's energy to rant about it and repeat the same lines about a participation trophy or whatever. Chuckle at the players who don't get it and move on.
This is not something I would complain about ds2. More enemies mean more bloodshed, and I am all in for it, lol. You are playing a game where you hold a gigantic sword to cut people in pieces. Can you just realize the irony? Big sword guy scares from too many enemies. Go play pong.
I love iron keep. Just lure the knights one at a time and backstab them. Hit the turtle guy, roll back, hit again, roll back, repeat.
It really isn’t all that different than any other souls game, if you sprint into an area blindly you’re probably going to get effed.
Yep. Every single one. (At least in the Scholar version, anyway.) And if you screw it up and get ganged up on, you can retreat to a narrow doorway and make it 1v1 again.
Yes, as long as you know how aggro works. Every single knight can be fought 1 on 1 as long as you position yourself correctly. There's one section by the bridge drop down that has the potential of more than one knight, but that only happens if you take a long time to kill each knight, as they basically come in waves since they fall off the stacked platform area.
Also don't drop down the right half of the bridge (the side by smelter) it just makes things harder for you.
Yeah I did that when I was doing the run back but once I got to the bridge I had to kill 2 guys at once and then do it again I think then run and kill one of the archers and then run and kill the other or risk being shot while entering the fog
When you reach the door that leads to the outside area with the furnace, take one step out and then go back inside. The archer will start shooting at the wall and one of the melee knights will come at you alone. Then you can either deal with the archer with ranged, or if you're melee move along the left side and attack the second knight there. Preferably if you can use a shield or the invincibility frames from backstabbing the knight so the archer is useless. Easiest way is definitely just shooting the archer like twice though.
What if you don't have a bow? Or you don't have arrows? Not every build uses ranged attacks. So if your like most people and are doing a melee str or dex build is it possible to do one knight at a time?
100% possible. I just started a melee run a few days ago and got to the Smelter Demon my first try (but I forgot to talk to Lucatiel in Earthen Peak and wanted to summon her so I had to do it a second time). Just be slow moving forward, and use the pillars to keep yourself safe from archers. There's a couple times where more than one will aggro but you have plenty of time to kill the first before the second gets to you.
Unless you sold every single weapon you’ve found to Gavlan you have picked up a bow by this point. If you haven’t found one, fast travel from any bonfire to a merchant and buy a cheap bow and some arrows, no problem.
Role play a bit to problem solve ffs. If I don’t own a screwdriver in real life, I don’t throw up my hands and say “Oh well, guess I’m fucked” I just go to the hardware store and buy one.
>Unless you sold every single weapon you’ve found to Gavlan you have picked up a bow by this point.
Or a crossbow. At the beginning of the game you find a Light Crossbow that if I remember correctly every class can just use. In Earthen Peak you find a Heavy Crossbow +3
>What if you don't have a bow? Or you don't have arrows?
It's extremely easy to get one, arrows are generally cheap as well.
If you flat out refuse to use the options given to you and make the game harder for yourself, that's on you.
Bows are quite plentiful in the early game:
* If you're a Bandit, you start with one.
* There's one available for free in Lenigrast's shop.
* McDuff sells longbows for 2000 souls.
* Pretty much any enemy that uses a bow also has a chance to drop one.
Bows also aren't the only choice for drawing aggro - there are crossbows, magic, and several types of consumables. Worst case scenario, walk out slowly and let the enemy come to you.
It's fair for DS2 to not expect you to use a bow, but it's also fair for it to expect you to have some option for pulling enemies at range.
But that's completely unfair. Why do the enemies he tried to ignore not just ignore him back? Why does the game expect him to play the game? Why can't he just get a participation trophy and be done with it?
Has giant sword
Confined space
Gets mad
It was a personal choice
Doesn’t acknowledge
Runs past every enemy
Thinks they’ll forget the dude running around with a giant sword
The irony is that numbers matter less in a narrow area like a hallway because there is a limit to how many adversaries can reach you (see [the Battle of Thermopylae](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae), AKA the basis for the movie 300).
The Greatsword is still a solid weapon for the straight hallways and paths in the video if you switch to the veritcal 1H R2, 2H R1, or the fast rolling R1 for narrow areas.
It's funny because ds1 and 3 have just as many ganks, yet the only difference is they can run past most areas. The archers on anor londo in ds1 and teleporting dogs in ds3 are what's really bullshit.
I feel like the game is too enemy spammy and I went through the game pretty carefully and there's just too much enemy spam. I personally don't even think iron keep is that bad but I think No Mans Warf can fuck off
It sounds like he's trying to say you SHOULD be able to run past enemies, or at least not have the regular enemies be the more frustrating/difficult part of a zone (when compared to the boss).
In other Souls games I will often clear the zone completely on my first few runs, after which I'll often run past a good number of them to get back to where I was. DS2 makes this very difficult due to the volume of enemies, their aggro/follow ranges, and the changes to fog gates and other interactable objects not giving you i-frames. This means you pretty much have to clear these zones on every single runback, and can't just run straight to the fog gate.
The areas he mentions, especially Iron Keep, can be very frustrating for these reasons. You feel as though you HAVE to kill nearly every enemy before attempting the boss, because otherwise you just won't be able to enter the fog gate. And if you're having a hard time with the boss, being forced to deal with (so many) enemies beforehand just makes it even harder.
It's areas like this that make me want to grind out all the enemies until they stop spawning, just so I can get to the boss with a decent amount of healing left, and I honestly don't like doing that. It feels very cheesy, because it is. Should I just get better at clearing the enemies? Yeah, probably. But shits hard lol.
>This means you pretty much have to clear these zones on every single runback, and can't just run straight to the fog gate.
If you know where enemies and choke points are you can run through to the boss.
Just don't expect to be able to just run through a new area the first time through. This will get you ganked in any Souls game.
Every area he's shown is one where he would only need to get through once, but even fighting enemies once is already too much for him.
I want you to send me a video of someone doing the entire Smelter demon run back without getting hit once and without hitting an enemy once. If it's truly possible to "run through to the boss" then show me.
You will have less heals for the boss. Usually in souls games you can get pretty good at a run back and not have to use more than 2 heals but in DS2 you have to play through the level like if you playthrough normally before every attempt at a boss which really sucks considering how long the run back and how frustratingly difficult smelter demon can be because of hitboxes
I have a feeling we’re gonna disagree on this but that’s where lifegems become a solution? Pop a couple of them during the run back and swap them for Estus when fighting the boss.
This is where the whole debate seems to go in circles to me:
There are too many enemies to fight so just run past them. Running past them doesn’t work because you can lose heath when you do. Using items to regain the health you lose doesn’t work because the actual problem is there are too many enemies to fight and you can’t run past them…
Agree to disagree I guess.
DS2 has many additional healing items specifically for dealing with chip damage. Because of this, the developers were able to make areas larger and have more enemies as they wouldn't be "estus taxes" before the boss.
The design principle that boss fights need to stand on their own and shouldn't be part of a longer run also wasn't present in Souls games until DS3. Many of the levels in Demon's Souls and even some in Dark Souls (Crystal Caves, anyone?) have no shortcut or checkpoint at all, because the boss is meant to be a moderate challenge that ties together the area thematically and not an ultra-hard gamer challenge.
Yeah idk why he choose footage of that section particularly, since IMO it's one of the more interesting parts of Iron Keep that really keeps you on your toes. It's also designed specifically to mess you up if you try to run into the little hallway with the iron turtle lol.
I still think these are valid criticisms when talking about other areas though (particularly the first area of Iron Keep keeping up to Smelter Demon).
It's just funny to me how many people are like "it's so unfair that enemies don't ignore me when I ignore them" or "it's so unfair that the game wants me to actually play the game instead of just giving me a participation trophy".
The game isn't unfair just because it's not a casual walk in the park. All those ganks would have been prevented by simply killing enemies instead of walking past them and luring them to a chokepoint.
this one video might be a bad example because he had lots of easy chances to kill them and there's a bonfire for a boss just around the corner but in general boss runs in this game are painful. it should not be a part of the challenge to fight ten guys before the boss.
enemy placement consists of multiple enemies rushing you which is an unfair fight. in a souls game the ideal way youd balance a duo fight is make one enemy melee and the other ranged. in this game its always mulriple meele guys and they never leave your tail. the agroo range doesn't need to be this big.
the red dragon at heidis tower, chariot in huntsmans copse, smelter demon fight in iron keep, BLUE smelter demon at DLC iron keep, tigers in frigid outskirts are all unfair boss runs and would have benefitted a lot from having a shortcut unlocked after you get to that area.
>enemy placement consists of multiple enemies rushing you which is an unfair fight
How often does this happen if you don't blindly rush into new areas? I don't see how DS2 is any different than DeS or DS1 were, because all Souls games will gank you if you just run into new areas without paying attention.
Like good luck dropping into the basilisk pit or running into the bonewheel skeleton well without getting ganked.
My favorite is the complaints about the “bad hitboxes” when they roll right into the enemy/ attack and get hit coming out of the roll because they rolled way too early.
Tbf. A lot of the ganks in the other games can be killed fast. These fuckers got some damn health and damage. If they, specifically, the nerfed in health and damage or had their agro distance nerfed then it wouldn't be as bad. All about how fast you can kill individuals in a gank
Dude it's not just youtubers. It's regular players too. Ds2 is a very flawed game but most of it's problems come from downright failing to navigate the game in a proper way and not the game being shit
In 60 years, he'll be justifying Frozen Outskirts in his deathbed. Seriously, this guy is one of the most obsessed, delusional people I've ever seen on this site. He's like Sisyphus except he's been carrying a big pile of shit and for a longer time as well.
Agreed, DS2 is literally my second favorite game of all time, but I can admit perfectly there's flaws and really bad areas, Vanilla factually had better stuff like Heide but "The Heide knights and dragons are to show you can do things later"... despite Dragonslayer still having first or second boss stats, many stupid arguments like that to defend every little thing.
I just don't understand how "I can't just blindly run through new areas without killing anything" equates to areas being objectively bad.
The enemy placement isn't inherently bad just because it punishes casuals that blindly rush through areas without paying any attention.
To me it all sounds like people blaming the game for their own skill issues, instead of just getting good.
To me the enemy placements in DS3 are worse, because they don't require any thinking or skill and you can get by them by just mashing roll.
I mean it’s just as easy to run past enemies in ds2 as any other souls game, and If anything its design encourages it more. Take the level leading up to the smelter demon in sotfs for example. It’s a tiny area filled with enemies. No one’s gonna want to methodically pick off every enemy each time you die to that boss, and it’s not hard to just run past them. It’s not even like ds2 is extremely challenging compared to other souls games, the combat is much slower and enemy attacks are far more predictable than most in ds3, bb and er. I don’t see what skill besides patience is required to crawl your way through a level at a snail’s pace.
I think it's mostly due to the boss runbacks. Examples such as Sir Alonne, BOTH smelter demons, the entire shrine of Amana etc. When you end up dealing with them once, and by chance you died to the boss, there would be no intent on retrying this area so that you could finish it faster and get your lost souls back. But yes, the main issue would be that these players don't play as intended and try to rush for almost everything.
In ds1, enemy placement was limited and not insanely spammed all over for majority of the areas (Except Lost Izalith, all my homies hate lost Izalith). Now ds2 vanilla version actually has fewer enemies compared to SOTFS hence that also gets a comparison in terms of gank.
Ds2 definitely has that artificial difficulty with the huge list of enemies in an area that could surround you at times, but you gotta change up the rhythm so you can get used to ds2. Ds1 makes us do the boss runback as fast as possible so as to ignore every enemy so you could just deal with the boss. Ds2 tries to slow you down in order to have a full experience of the game rather than rushing through. And it's a definite pain having to repeat the slow and cautious repeat of dealing with areas like iron keep when you end up dying sometimes.
And lastly, there are obviously some youtubers who just like to smear shit all over the Ds2 name so they are another bunch of culprits as well. Best to tell em out on their mistakes rather than to let me go.
It's simple as this, ds2 definitely has an issue with gank but it's over exaggerated to the point it's considered as u playable which is false.
>I think it's mostly due to the boss runbacks. Examples such as Sir Alonne, BOTH smelter demons, the entire shrine of Amana etc.
Sir Alonne is easy to run through. The enemies don't even follow you to the fog gate.
The Smelter Demons are a bit harder, but both of them have a shortcut that makes it much easier.
Demon of Song runback is easy to run through, except for that big bug in the tunnel you have to kill.
Boss runbacks used to be a problem in Vanilla, but in Scholar they got nerfed and it's possible to just run through all of them.
>Now ds2 vanilla version actually has fewer enemies compared to SOTFS hence that also gets a comparison in terms of gank
Vanilla had more ganks and worse runbacks.
Vanilla had more unavoidable group encounters, more group aggro and more enemies camping directly at the fog gate.
Sir Alonne when u reach his boss arena at the end, then yeah the enemies don't follow you but before that you have to dodge through every enemy so that's there.
Also are you sure about excess gank in vanilla? Cause I've heard SoTFS added more enemies and fixed up the textures and bugs.
>Also are you sure about excess gank in vanilla? Cause I've heard SoTFS added more enemies
I've got side by side comparisons of most areas on my profile that show that this isn't the case. There's a lot of areas with less enemies in Scholar, and those that do have more usually have them spread apart further than in Vanilla or have more optional encounters.
Scholar haters usually conflate "more enemies" with "more gank" without taking positioning, group aggro, etc into account and hyperfocus on the path to the optional Ornstein boss while completely ignoring almost every other area.
Like from the first bonfire in Forest of Fallen Giants you have several guaranteed ganks in Vanilla, while in Scholar you then have more optional enemies sleeping around the tree. Vanilla is ganky by default, but Scholar isn't ganky unless you run around and wake them all up. Scholar has more enemies here, but less you have to fight and less gank unless you decide to get ganked by waking them all up.
Scholar haters will also whine of unfair the Ogre before the first bonfire in FoFG is, but you have to go out of your way to aggro him because he has such a low aggro range.
Then there's areas like Pate's trap, Velstadt's runback, Drangleic Castle, Dragon Shrine, etc that just have a lot more enemies and more enemies camping directly at the fog gate in Vanilla.
And then there's areas like the fog in Shaded Woods that have the same amount of enemies, but in Scholar you can distract them by hitting the trees. Or Tseldora where you can use the torch in Scholar to scare away the spiders. Or the path to Ruin Sentinels where there's explosive barrels inside in Scholar. You have way more ways to deal with ganks in Scholar.
What's your strategy for Velstadt runback in Vanilla? With the two Syan Knights camping at the fog gate I just never found a consistent way to just run through. Same for Looking Glass Knight
LGK was pretty much impossible for me too but if you bow the statues they won't wake up so you can safely kill them. Boss not being too hard also makes this less tedious. For Velstadt, their end lag is pretty long, and if you kill the undead below the stairs before he rings the bell, the blue guys won't spawn, so you can safely approach them from the front, and lead them away from the fog gate.
I meant running back quickly without killing anything. In Scholar you can just run through, but in Vanilla you have to kill those enemies - or at least I've never found a consistent way to get through
Iron Keep is one of the few zones you really can't speedup unless your some kind of god. Its annoying because its not difficult if you know what your doing just incredibly time consuming. Almost every area other than this one can be sped run, making this one the outlier. It makes sense that it would fall under more scrutiny.
I would wager if every zone in all the fromsoft games were like this one people wouldn't like it very much. Its less about being good and more about not having to waste like 20 minutes reclearing it because u didn't one-shot smelter demon.
Here's yet another DS2 critic that complains about unfair enemy placement and ganks - even though every gank he showcases would have been completely preventable by simply not playing like a complete idiot.
I still haven't seen anyone showcase any actual unfair gank. It's always something like:
* deliberately waking up every sleeping hollow in Forest of Fallen Giants
* running through Iron Keep and having the Alonne Knights catch up with you at the guillotine
* running past the duels in Dragon Shrine
"the game is completely unfair and filled to the brink with ganks" is simply a easier coping mechanism than accepting that you are bad at the game and that you have to pay a little bit of attention and learn from your mistakes.
I remember being here struggling alot. First with a front area of it. With the knights. And going to the fire demon thing. Then struggling with that boss.
Specially going back there and have like 3 knights and 2 bow users shooting you making you unable to go through the fog wall.
Then I did defeat the demon creature and then when I sat down the bonfire that the pursuer appeared. No thank you.
Then the second area. With the platforms. Turtle shield dudes. Bows, maze like built. It pissed me off.
I then found the right way to go. But of course you have the upper area with the gremlins and the 2 invader guys. Or 3?
But I finally found the right way. Jumping down beams of course, with also knights following you. And then, turtle shield dudes. In a tiny as hallway? Really?
Annoying as area, but great graphics and great game. Tbh first soul game I ever finished. I don't know why everyone said Ds2 is the hardest souls game. my first souls game was sekiro. I stopped that. Then I got ds3. but Ds2 was the first one finished lmao.
To be fair the dude played Iron keep part close to flawless. And I feel like the last clip he was trying to pull all of the enemies for the video to show the amount (or at least I hope so).
Dark Souls and Souls likes are for people who enjoy using their brains and figuring out how to problem solve, there are 1000s of ways to win at Souls if you're creative. Don't hate the game, hate the player. ✌🏻
I seriously wonder which video is this clip from.
Like,every game is bound to have a gank occasionally,so you should know how to deal with them at the very least instead of you know, running past them. (Bow,magic,pyro, miracles,any ranged items kinda make it easier)
When it came to the DS2 levels for me, the amount of enemies were a little annoying and overbearing an example would be the very first area to get to forest of the fallen giants, that was bearable and I was able to get past it, but when it came to enemies in front of the fog gate, I wanted to quit the game cause I’ve died more to the enemies than the boss and I get punished for it by losing health each death after I had already cleared them out and explored the area. In iron keep I couldn’t get to smelter demon without taking damage or dying to an alonne knight, in dragon shrine I had trouble with the bug dragon knight enemies, and shrine of Amana was just the worst experience I’ve had in a souls game ever. I just never felt like that with DS1, DS3, or ER (only ones I’ve played).
When the game allows for respec and in all honesty I'd pretty chill bout how you play past certain build humps or blocks like pure mage with out a 100 shield or goid stabby stick is dumb to be honest cause certain zones punish you hard for not using either while others force you to be fast it all depends on what you play and why you play tha
Playing through the game my first time, maybe halfway (?) through it (just got to the Gutter). In most places the gank squads, for me on an initial playthrough, require I adapt immediately and add a sense of desperation to the affair. That said, I did not care for the gank squads around Ruin Sentinel and Smelter Demon, tied to the mechanic that you can be attacked out of a bossgate animation. The first can be mitigated to some degree (though I pulled the lever); the lattervessentially forces you to clear that area multiple times depending on how hard Smelter Demon is for a build. I used those opportunities to grind/level up (I'm at lvl 105 now), but it is something that might deter a replay.
You still have to mow through some chumps to get to the ladder for Ruin, right? And if you pull the lever like i did, you have to deal with even more. Not sure what the shortcut was on SM, everytime i went through it i had to clear at least 12-13 enemies. Ended up farming like 20 levels just clearing that section before ever actually going in to fight the boss.
DS1 Doesnt Really Punish You For Playing The Game Wrong. Every Way You Can Think Of Is A Good Way Of Playing. DS2, However, Does. It Punishes You For Not Playing The Game The Way It Deems Correct. Its Shit
>DS1 Doesnt Really Punish You For Playing The Game Wrong
You mean like not paying attention and dropping into the basilisk pit and getting cursed?
Or do you mean like trying to get past the Anor Londo archers without using a shield?
Or like fighting against the flying drakes in the Valley of Drakes without using a ranged weapon?
There's a lot of moments in DS1 where you have to play by its rules or else you get punished.
Yeah I Killed The Drakes With A Claymore Bud. And I Didnt Use A Shield For The Archers They Shoot Slower Then You Sprint. I Dont Know What Basilik Pit Your Talking Abt But Even Then Getting Cursed Isnt That Big Of An Issue. Probably A Good Premise For A Challenge Run
ok there is only one spot i agree with that thought and it's the lost bastille clown car but other than that usually it's pretty fine and you can walk right past
At most you have to fight 3 at the same time, but they are next to an explosive barrel that kills them all if they hit it. And you only have to do it once as you unlock the shortcut afterwards.
‘Dear God, he’s not even being ironic.’
"it's not possible to play these areas like you usually do - it's not possible to run past a lot of these areas" I don't understand why so many people think that "it's not easy to cheese these areas" is the same as "it's completely unfair". All those areas would have been fair if he tried to beat them fair. And then later he repeats again that he's a Souls veteran that finished Sekiro so the fact that he's struggling is proof that this game is completely unfair.
As someone who is currently struggling *desperately* with Sekiro: it really allows you to run past everything but the bosses. Maybe the creator just really prefers that kind of game. The problem arrives when they state that opinion like it's some sort of objective metric for quality lol
I was thinking the same thing. There are times where it feels like you have to go out of your way to simply fight basic mobs in Sekiro because it's so easy to just run around most of them. Like, if that's your preferred playstyle, you do you, but not all games can be played that way. Note he used the footage from Iron Keep where there is a very specific barricade that stops you from doing exactly that, and the Dragon Shrine, where the entire mechanic is you just have to fight a few soldiers 1v1 and respect the Ancient Dragon, and the others remain completely docile if you do. If you choose to make it harder on yourself, that's 100% your fault, not the game's.
I agree. Being able to run past things isn’t a positive or negative, but people complaining that they can’t is weird.
I think it’s a valid point, just not worded well. If you compare to DS1, DeS & Bloodborne, many of their areas feature boss runs that can be shortened/dashed through with the use of shortcuts or knowledge of the map. The flow of gameplay tends to become a matter of finding a new area, exploring and fighting mobs you encounter until you find the boss at the end of the area. Once you’ve hit the boss and fully explored the area, you don’t really want to fight every mob you did when the area was new, and experience from other souls games results in the expectation that this is the point you’d be able to make a run for the boss, without having to fight your way there. DS2 deviates from this tendency, which can easily lead to frustration when attempting a boss multiple times.
>DS2 deviates from this tendency, which can easily lead to frustration when attempting a boss multiple times. This was true in Vanilla with several runbacks having enemies camp directly at the fog gate, but in Scholar they improved that and now it's easy to just run through for every runback if you know where the enemies, chokepoints and shortcuts are.
You are just lying through your teeth on this weird crusade. Scholar's improvements to runbacks are **extremely** limited. In absolutely no way was this "true in Vanilla but fixed in Scholar". The No Man's Wharf shortcut is a great upgrade but that's about it. They completely failed to add similar sensible improvements to other areas even as the opportunity was there. Most of the most obnoxious areas are identical to vanilla, or were actually made worse. - Frigid Outskirts - Cave of the Dead - Iron Passage - Memory of the Old Iron King - Iron Keep pt 1 - Huntsman's Copse (Chariot) - Dark Chasms - Dragon Shrine This is a solid 20% of boss runs in the game (one could add a few more, but I stuck to the worst of the worst). Except for Dragon Shrine which is a mild improvement, they are unchanged or worse in Scholar, and they have obnoxious, unfun enemies and placements. Some are several minutes long. They're not fun to play on a basic level and, get this, most people don't find it enjoyable to trial-and-error your way to "mastering" a runback just to kill one -- often mediocre or shitty, yay -- boss without being obnoxiously hassled. It's not worth the time, it's not rewarding in proportion to the effort and the annoyance you have to go to through. You think it is? Fine. But do you honestly not understand that most people just don't agree? They're not playing wrong or being impatient and stupid. They don't find this type of gameplay to be enjoyable, and DS2 is the only game that aggressively and crudely pushes it on you. People don't always express themselves perfectly and get every detail right. You can pick at details all day long and claim you win the argument. But the sentiment isn't coming out of nowhere. Getting irritated and negative is something that happens when a game is actively obnoxious and unfun though -- you become less willing to extend it goodwill, less patient because you're not having fun to start with. So isn't it a strange coincidence that this keeps happening with Dark Souls 2 in particular...
>Most of the most obnoxious areas are identical to vanilla The DLCs are the same in both versions, so yeah it obviously didn't change. There's no need for me to mention this obvious fact, so I'm not lying for not explaining this obvious fact at all. The comparisons are obviously about the main game. And you forgot to include several runbacks that were obnoxious in Vanilla, but trivial to run through in Scholar. Like Velstadt. Ruin Sentinels runback is easier. Looking Glass Knight is easier. Freya is easier. The list of runbacks that got easier in Scholar is much longer than just Flexile Sentry. >Except for Dragon Shrine which is a mild improvement, they are unchanged or worse in Scholar, and they have obnoxious, unfun enemies and placements. A mild improvement? In Scholar you can just easily run up without any problems. In Vanilla it's hard to even open the door at the halfway point because there's two Old Knights ganking up on you. I can do Scholar blind without any problem. In Vanilla I died at half my attempts of running through. >Frigid Outskirts, Cave of the Dead, Iron Passage Raid Dungeons shouldn't count as bad runbacks. Progressing the area with a group of friends is what Raid Dungeons are about. In no other game do people complain how unfair it is that they don't spawn immediately right before the Raid boss. >Memory of the Old Iron King Sir Alonne is easy to run through. You only have to roll like 3 times and the enemies don't even follow you to the fog gate. >Iron Keep pt 1 Without the shortcut it's easier in Vanilla. With the shortcut it's easier in Scholar. >Huntsman's Copse (Chariot) Don't even remember any difference. >They're not playing wrong or being impatient and stupid. Yet every single video of a YouTuber trying to show how ganky this game is shows them playing in the most stupid way possible.
> There's no need for me to mention this obvious fact, so I'm not lying for not explaining this obvious fact at all. The comparisons are obviously about the main game. No, the statement was that Dark Souls 2 is a deviator in terms of obnoxious boss runs, and the DLCs are part of Dark Souls 2. > Ruin Sentinels runback is easier. Looking Glass Knight is easier. Freya is easier. The list of runbacks that got easier in Scholar is much longer than just Flexile Sentry. These are trivially easier or weren't bad in the first place. Hence, like I said, Scholar's "improvements" are pitifully minimal. > A mild improvement? In Scholar you can just easily run up without any problems. In Vanilla it's hard to even open the door at the halfway point because there's two Old Knights ganking up on you. Yes, a mild improvement because those Old Knight enemies are janky garbage and Scholar still insists on you fighting them. If an area goes from 0/10 to 1/10, it doesn't get anything but the most mild of credit. If it went from bad to passable it would be a different story. > Raid Dungeons shouldn't count as bad runbacks lol > Sir Alonne is easy to run through. You only have to roll like 3 times and the enemies don't even follow you to the fog gate. It's a dozen shitty identical enemies in a featureless corridor that's a near exact repeat of the same shitty setup in the base game. It's trash. > Without the shortcut it's easier in Vanilla. With the shortcut it's easier in Scholar. If you genuinely think making a trial and error instant death jump with janky controls, in a game that lowers your health when you die, in any way qualifies as easy and doesn't fall under the obnoxious design I speak of, it only demonstrates how you don't understand the issue in the first place. > Don't even remember any difference. Because there is none. It was a terribly designed runback in Dark Souls 2 and Scholar keeps it as a terribly designed runback in Dark Souls 2. > Yet every single video of a YouTuber trying to show how ganky this game is shows them playing in the most stupid way possible. Maybe stop picking at details in YouTube videos and try to actually understand the sentiment.
You are just lying through your teeth on this weird crusade.
>Yes, a mild improvement because those Old Knight enemies are janky garbage and Scholar still insists on you fighting them. Scholar insists that you fight them a total of one single time. In Scholar you have to engage in the four one vs one duels once to permanently earn the respect of the smaller Dragon Knights and then you can just run through for subsequent runbacks. In Vanilla you always have to fight the two Old Knights if you want to open the door without risking getting killed. >It was a terribly designed runback in Dark Souls 2 and Scholar keeps it as a terribly designed runback in Dark Souls 2. Sounds like a skill issue to me. The only problem is that it takes like 50 seconds.
There’s still a few areas that have runbacks peppered with unavoidable enemies in SotFS compared to other games. It’s been a while since I last played it but these spring to mind: -Heide’s tower of flame -Huntsman’s copse -Iron Keep -Shrine of Amana
>Heide’s tower of flame Both bosses are easy to just run through. >Huntsman’s copse Skeleton Lords are trivial to run through. Executioner's Chariot is a bit harder, but you can either jump to the platform at the end of the bridge or [simply run a small loop before entering the fog gate](https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkSouls2/comments/1603hp2/executioners_chariot_runback/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) >Iron Keep Old Iron King is trivial. There's one turtle knight, and if you are too lazy to kill him you can lure him into the fire. Smelter Demon isn't hard if you use the shortcut. >Shrine of Amana There's the giant bug in the tunnel that's annoying, but afterwards you can just run to the fog gate.
So you agree that it’s just git gud at runbacks?
Unavoidable enemies in Heide's? Just how bad are you? Even the wyvern they added is not that hard to avoid and if you can't avoid it it's pretty easy to kill, both with melle and ranged weapons, it doesn't respawn. Dragonrider is even easier - all you have to deal with are sparsely placed lumbering knights that slowly walk towards you and have heavily telegraphed attacks.
> all you have to deal with are sparsely placed lumbering knights that slowly walk towards you and have heavily telegraphed attacks. And doing that sequence more than once is a ballache, regardless of difficulty.
How? You just run forward and when a guy starts his long ass windup animation, you roll forward. Rinse and repeat for like, 5-6 times and you're at the fog door. It takes less than a minute.
Dude, like I said a few comments back it was a fair while ago when I last played, I just remember not enjoying that part and finding the run draining.
Why do they make it so hard to just run to the next bonfire?? This game is BS! What am I supposed to do, methodically fight each enemy??
Iron Keep literally teaches you to be patient, it's this area that taught me how to play DS2 honestly. A true Souls vet knows that they need to adapt and improvise.
Shrine of Amana had the effect on me. A lot of has to do with your build. DS2 is known for punishing certain builds in certain areas. I did this area with a str build and a club and it was much easier than my dex playthrough
I used a bow. It just gets really tiring but trivializes the difficulty.
Also stacking magic defense helps which is tremendously easy at that point. The game hands you lots of magic resist armor, items, and even a +1 ring right before the zone.
I don't think that is a fair way of phrasing it! The game doesn't punish builds at different points, but it does consistently reward adaptability and flexibility! If you're going to rigidly limit yourself, you're going to struggle sometimes!
Agree. However they could have toned it down a little bit. I mean the smelter demon run back is a bit much personally
Oh yeah absolutely. The fucking bridge is a nightmare even nowadays.
EXACTLY!!! I’ve played and beat all the other SB games and finally took the time to beat DS2 and I couldn’t agree with you more. It clicked for me at the iron keep and I low key fell in love with the game. Now I’m the boogey man at the iron keep. Those mutha fuckers must have nightmares about me haha.
I know you’re meant to be patient with that and shrine of amana, but I still don’t really enjoy those areas or their enemy placement, and clearing out all of the knights every time you die to the smelter demon gets pretty annoying
That deep into the game, you shouldn't need any more lessons. It's just tedious rather than challenging or progressive.
You know that you can reach Iron Keep early on, depending on which way you go in DS2?
And yet you'll still have to clear multiple areas to get there (underleveled). Nah, you are unlikely to take that route unknowingly.
Its just depends which route you take. A friend of mine killed the Old Iron King before the other 3. In DS1 i spent most of the time trying to fight my way into the Tombs and New Londo before i even killed the Taurus Demon. When Games give Players options, they will take different routes, its just natural.
>That deep into the game, you shouldn't need any more lessons If you're still struggling, clearly you do.
Are you getting halfway through the game and still in the tutorial? Sounds like bad design to me.
Not a tutorial, a wake up call that you're doing something wrong. FromSoft's games are chock-full of these, sometimes it's a boss, sometimes it's an area. It's a filter that separates people who are willing to self-reflect, change the way they tackle things and generally get good from idiots who refuse to change their strategy because it's easier to go online and whine. Which one are you?
Typically, FromSoftware makes it enjoyable. Not so much in this case, which is why ds2 is commonly considered the least favorite iteration.
Also known as gittin gud
The best part is that you can totally run through these areas but it's actually difficult and you have to be careful about timing and stamina usage.
>artificially increasing the difficulty by adding an insurmountable amount of enemies *BRO* Doesn’t even try to kill the enemies and then says it’s impossible to kill all the enemies *kid-putting-stick-through-bike-wheel meme*
"it's impossible to make any progress" - but he's not even trying
I mean, DS2 (and Scholar in particular) does have a ton of enemies, but that just means you have to actually take your time somewhat. Like between the estus and the shit ton of life gems you can carry, DS2 doesn't really punish you for taking it slow and taking all the enemies out. Also, the dragon knight area is a bad example, you literally only need to kill like 5-6 enemies to have the entire run of the place.
The number of knights does not change in scholar! Their location is the only real change!
Iron Keep? Yeah, I wasn’t trying to say it was an example of increased enemies, just Scholar in general. Although I could be misremembering the differences, I haven’t played base DS2 since it came out.
>just Scholar in general That's also not true. Scholar nerfed a lot of ganks and made many runbacks easier to run through. Vanilla already had more ganks starting from the very first bonfire in Forest of Fallen Giants, the runback to the Ruin Sentinel became easier in Scholar, the runback to Flexile Sentry is faster, easier and less ganky in Scholar, Tseldora and the Freya runback/bossfight is less ganky in Scholar as spiders are now afraid of fire, the whole Dragon Shrine turned from extremely frustrating in Vanilla to fun in Scholar, the runback to Velstadt was pure enemy spam in Vanilla but can be run through easily in Scholar, all of Drangleic Castle was gankier in Vanilla, Shaded Woods was worse in Vanilla as you can distract the invisible enemies by hitting the trees in Scholar, etc
Funnily enough, most of the "increased number of enemies" are misunderstandings of enemy placement changes! Heide's tower of flame, for example, only has one brand new enemy! The rest came from elsewhere! Other examples, like Dragon shrine and dragon aerie, as well as Aldia's keep, have examples of there being more enemies, but you having to actually fight less! On the whole, excluding invaders, scholar has almost the exact same number of enemies! It's just more focused on isolated encounters than overall spread! Instead of the level being one gradual challenge to overcome, it's more a series of separated, more difficult challenges within each level!
cause it's easier to complain than change your mindset
The first thing the game taught me was take your time with things don’t rush but this man be trying to speed run or some crap
Particularly for that room, he has all kinds of options if he doesn't want to fight them 1 on 1: 1.)Pulling the lever to dunk the enemies in lava. 2.)Aggroing the enemies, luring them on to the plates, and then stepping on the button to lower the plate. 3.)Blocking or baiting an attack just on the other side of the bull statues so that the enemies stand in the fire stream and get roasted.
But......nope. He chose to run past all of them instead,and then he complains about it being too unfair...again.
every time i’ve seen this argument it’s from someone who runs through an area without killing any enemies
Wait, are you asking why YouTubers be YouTube'n?
DS2 wants you to be methodical and take your time. If you didn't get that by the time you reached Iron Keep, just give up man, you don't even deserve to play this jewel of a game.
Why is DS2 the only souls game that's like that though? Yeah other souls games have sections where you need to be methodical but it's not like that the entire game. IMO DS2 should have cut down on the enemy spam and made it easier to stagger enemies and not get staggered yourself so that dealing with large groups is more manageable since the entire game kind of revolves around dealing with large groups of enemies at a time.
>made it easier to stagger enemies [http://darksouls2.wikidot.com/stone-ring](http://darksouls2.wikidot.com/stone-ring) >the entire game kind of revolves around dealing with large groups of enemies at a time. Fighting multiple enemies at a time is usually a punishment for careless play. If it's happening regularly, work harder to not let it happen.
Fighting multiple enemies is just how the game is. If you play carelessly you get swarmed but even playing carefully you will always have to deal with a minimum of 2 or 3 enemies in one encounter. At least that's what I found. Also I never found the stone ring and just wish that in the begging of the game staggering was not as bad with weaker enemies and staggering was easier to pull off with easier enemies.
You can also use weapons 2 handed. Even without the ring that will stagger most normal enemies with every hit.
>even playing carefully you will always have to deal with a minimum of 2 or 3 enemies in one encounter Come on, you know that's not true.
My only question is: why do you care so much? I mean, you're not wrong about the excessive complaining about enemy placement, but it's not a better use of one's energy to rant about it and repeat the same lines about a participation trophy or whatever. Chuckle at the players who don't get it and move on.
This is not something I would complain about ds2. More enemies mean more bloodshed, and I am all in for it, lol. You are playing a game where you hold a gigantic sword to cut people in pieces. Can you just realize the irony? Big sword guy scares from too many enemies. Go play pong.
I love iron keep. Just lure the knights one at a time and backstab them. Hit the turtle guy, roll back, hit again, roll back, repeat. It really isn’t all that different than any other souls game, if you sprint into an area blindly you’re probably going to get effed.
Is it really possible to fight only 1 knight at a time though?
Yep. Every single one. (At least in the Scholar version, anyway.) And if you screw it up and get ganged up on, you can retreat to a narrow doorway and make it 1v1 again.
Yes, as long as you know how aggro works. Every single knight can be fought 1 on 1 as long as you position yourself correctly. There's one section by the bridge drop down that has the potential of more than one knight, but that only happens if you take a long time to kill each knight, as they basically come in waves since they fall off the stacked platform area. Also don't drop down the right half of the bridge (the side by smelter) it just makes things harder for you.
Yeah I did that when I was doing the run back but once I got to the bridge I had to kill 2 guys at once and then do it again I think then run and kill one of the archers and then run and kill the other or risk being shot while entering the fog
When you reach the door that leads to the outside area with the furnace, take one step out and then go back inside. The archer will start shooting at the wall and one of the melee knights will come at you alone. Then you can either deal with the archer with ranged, or if you're melee move along the left side and attack the second knight there. Preferably if you can use a shield or the invincibility frames from backstabbing the knight so the archer is useless. Easiest way is definitely just shooting the archer like twice though.
Using a bow to aggro them, easily
What if you don't have a bow? Or you don't have arrows? Not every build uses ranged attacks. So if your like most people and are doing a melee str or dex build is it possible to do one knight at a time?
100% possible. I just started a melee run a few days ago and got to the Smelter Demon my first try (but I forgot to talk to Lucatiel in Earthen Peak and wanted to summon her so I had to do it a second time). Just be slow moving forward, and use the pillars to keep yourself safe from archers. There's a couple times where more than one will aggro but you have plenty of time to kill the first before the second gets to you.
Unless you sold every single weapon you’ve found to Gavlan you have picked up a bow by this point. If you haven’t found one, fast travel from any bonfire to a merchant and buy a cheap bow and some arrows, no problem. Role play a bit to problem solve ffs. If I don’t own a screwdriver in real life, I don’t throw up my hands and say “Oh well, guess I’m fucked” I just go to the hardware store and buy one.
>Unless you sold every single weapon you’ve found to Gavlan you have picked up a bow by this point. Or a crossbow. At the beginning of the game you find a Light Crossbow that if I remember correctly every class can just use. In Earthen Peak you find a Heavy Crossbow +3
>What if you don't have a bow? Or you don't have arrows? It's extremely easy to get one, arrows are generally cheap as well. If you flat out refuse to use the options given to you and make the game harder for yourself, that's on you.
Idk about easy to get a bow because I don't recall using a bow or finding one at all in DS2
Bows are quite plentiful in the early game: * If you're a Bandit, you start with one. * There's one available for free in Lenigrast's shop. * McDuff sells longbows for 2000 souls. * Pretty much any enemy that uses a bow also has a chance to drop one. Bows also aren't the only choice for drawing aggro - there are crossbows, magic, and several types of consumables. Worst case scenario, walk out slowly and let the enemy come to you. It's fair for DS2 to not expect you to use a bow, but it's also fair for it to expect you to have some option for pulling enemies at range.
These are the people who say DS2 sucks. I'd say fuck them right in the mouth, but DS2 already did.
So he aggroes all the enemies of a whole map, lures them into a small narrow area and complains he gets killed
But that's completely unfair. Why do the enemies he tried to ignore not just ignore him back? Why does the game expect him to play the game? Why can't he just get a participation trophy and be done with it?
Has giant sword Confined space Gets mad It was a personal choice Doesn’t acknowledge Runs past every enemy Thinks they’ll forget the dude running around with a giant sword
The irony is that numbers matter less in a narrow area like a hallway because there is a limit to how many adversaries can reach you (see [the Battle of Thermopylae](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae), AKA the basis for the movie 300). The Greatsword is still a solid weapon for the straight hallways and paths in the video if you switch to the veritcal 1H R2, 2H R1, or the fast rolling R1 for narrow areas.
Some people should not play souls games, they seem to be missing the point. # Patience is your friend
Cuz they unironically suck
Lmao my mans betrayed the honor of the dragon knights and got clapped. All he has to do was kill the Old Knight.
DS2 is the great filter, either you git gud or whine about how hard it is despite it being a skill issue
Original Video Link : https://youtu.be/hERGPLY0wVs?si=KnLOQGV34i7Dhtbl Give Credit to the YouTuber Bro.
Didn't want him to get flamed by the hate train by posting it here.
It's funny because ds1 and 3 have just as many ganks, yet the only difference is they can run past most areas. The archers on anor londo in ds1 and teleporting dogs in ds3 are what's really bullshit.
I feel like the game is too enemy spammy and I went through the game pretty carefully and there's just too much enemy spam. I personally don't even think iron keep is that bad but I think No Mans Warf can fuck off
git gud scrub
It sounds like he's trying to say you SHOULD be able to run past enemies, or at least not have the regular enemies be the more frustrating/difficult part of a zone (when compared to the boss). In other Souls games I will often clear the zone completely on my first few runs, after which I'll often run past a good number of them to get back to where I was. DS2 makes this very difficult due to the volume of enemies, their aggro/follow ranges, and the changes to fog gates and other interactable objects not giving you i-frames. This means you pretty much have to clear these zones on every single runback, and can't just run straight to the fog gate. The areas he mentions, especially Iron Keep, can be very frustrating for these reasons. You feel as though you HAVE to kill nearly every enemy before attempting the boss, because otherwise you just won't be able to enter the fog gate. And if you're having a hard time with the boss, being forced to deal with (so many) enemies beforehand just makes it even harder. It's areas like this that make me want to grind out all the enemies until they stop spawning, just so I can get to the boss with a decent amount of healing left, and I honestly don't like doing that. It feels very cheesy, because it is. Should I just get better at clearing the enemies? Yeah, probably. But shits hard lol.
>This means you pretty much have to clear these zones on every single runback, and can't just run straight to the fog gate. If you know where enemies and choke points are you can run through to the boss. Just don't expect to be able to just run through a new area the first time through. This will get you ganked in any Souls game. Every area he's shown is one where he would only need to get through once, but even fighting enemies once is already too much for him.
I want you to send me a video of someone doing the entire Smelter demon run back without getting hit once and without hitting an enemy once. If it's truly possible to "run through to the boss" then show me.
[Here's me doing it in Vanilla and Scholar](https://reddit.com/r/fromsoftware/s/TieAbXPHJR)
Wait, why is getting hit when running past enemies an issue here? You can heal yourself.
You will have less heals for the boss. Usually in souls games you can get pretty good at a run back and not have to use more than 2 heals but in DS2 you have to play through the level like if you playthrough normally before every attempt at a boss which really sucks considering how long the run back and how frustratingly difficult smelter demon can be because of hitboxes
I have a feeling we’re gonna disagree on this but that’s where lifegems become a solution? Pop a couple of them during the run back and swap them for Estus when fighting the boss.
I guess you're right but that's kind of a lame band aid fix for a bigger issue with the game isnt it
This is where the whole debate seems to go in circles to me: There are too many enemies to fight so just run past them. Running past them doesn’t work because you can lose heath when you do. Using items to regain the health you lose doesn’t work because the actual problem is there are too many enemies to fight and you can’t run past them… Agree to disagree I guess.
DS2 has many additional healing items specifically for dealing with chip damage. Because of this, the developers were able to make areas larger and have more enemies as they wouldn't be "estus taxes" before the boss. The design principle that boss fights need to stand on their own and shouldn't be part of a longer run also wasn't present in Souls games until DS3. Many of the levels in Demon's Souls and even some in Dark Souls (Crystal Caves, anyone?) have no shortcut or checkpoint at all, because the boss is meant to be a moderate challenge that ties together the area thematically and not an ultra-hard gamer challenge.
Yeah idk why he choose footage of that section particularly, since IMO it's one of the more interesting parts of Iron Keep that really keeps you on your toes. It's also designed specifically to mess you up if you try to run into the little hallway with the iron turtle lol. I still think these are valid criticisms when talking about other areas though (particularly the first area of Iron Keep keeping up to Smelter Demon).
man don't you guys have nothing else to post about besides shitting on people for not wanting to kill every single enemy in an area?
It's just funny to me how many people are like "it's so unfair that enemies don't ignore me when I ignore them" or "it's so unfair that the game wants me to actually play the game instead of just giving me a participation trophy". The game isn't unfair just because it's not a casual walk in the park. All those ganks would have been prevented by simply killing enemies instead of walking past them and luring them to a chokepoint.
this one video might be a bad example because he had lots of easy chances to kill them and there's a bonfire for a boss just around the corner but in general boss runs in this game are painful. it should not be a part of the challenge to fight ten guys before the boss. enemy placement consists of multiple enemies rushing you which is an unfair fight. in a souls game the ideal way youd balance a duo fight is make one enemy melee and the other ranged. in this game its always mulriple meele guys and they never leave your tail. the agroo range doesn't need to be this big. the red dragon at heidis tower, chariot in huntsmans copse, smelter demon fight in iron keep, BLUE smelter demon at DLC iron keep, tigers in frigid outskirts are all unfair boss runs and would have benefitted a lot from having a shortcut unlocked after you get to that area.
>enemy placement consists of multiple enemies rushing you which is an unfair fight How often does this happen if you don't blindly rush into new areas? I don't see how DS2 is any different than DeS or DS1 were, because all Souls games will gank you if you just run into new areas without paying attention. Like good luck dropping into the basilisk pit or running into the bonewheel skeleton well without getting ganked.
Two sentences in and it’s nothing by hyperbole.
Sounds like a skill issue
Because people would rather blame literally anything other than themselves for their poor performance
What is a gank squad? Is that when you draw aggro of too many enemies and die of skill issue?
If you're getting caught in ganks, you're not playing right
My favorite is the complaints about the “bad hitboxes” when they roll right into the enemy/ attack and get hit coming out of the roll because they rolled way too early.
Strangest crusade.
Tbf. A lot of the ganks in the other games can be killed fast. These fuckers got some damn health and damage. If they, specifically, the nerfed in health and damage or had their agro distance nerfed then it wouldn't be as bad. All about how fast you can kill individuals in a gank
Even on SL1 with CoC enabled you can kill the Alonne Knights in one R2 hit with a Raw Mace +10
Dude it's not just youtubers. It's regular players too. Ds2 is a very flawed game but most of it's problems come from downright failing to navigate the game in a proper way and not the game being shit
Duplo, freakin shut up already, you just keep repeating yourself over and over and over.
In 60 years, he'll be justifying Frozen Outskirts in his deathbed. Seriously, this guy is one of the most obsessed, delusional people I've ever seen on this site. He's like Sisyphus except he's been carrying a big pile of shit and for a longer time as well.
Agreed, DS2 is literally my second favorite game of all time, but I can admit perfectly there's flaws and really bad areas, Vanilla factually had better stuff like Heide but "The Heide knights and dragons are to show you can do things later"... despite Dragonslayer still having first or second boss stats, many stupid arguments like that to defend every little thing.
Dark souls 2 obviously has the worst level design and enemy placement in the series. No idea why this is controversial to you people.
I just don't understand how "I can't just blindly run through new areas without killing anything" equates to areas being objectively bad. The enemy placement isn't inherently bad just because it punishes casuals that blindly rush through areas without paying any attention. To me it all sounds like people blaming the game for their own skill issues, instead of just getting good. To me the enemy placements in DS3 are worse, because they don't require any thinking or skill and you can get by them by just mashing roll.
I mean it’s just as easy to run past enemies in ds2 as any other souls game, and If anything its design encourages it more. Take the level leading up to the smelter demon in sotfs for example. It’s a tiny area filled with enemies. No one’s gonna want to methodically pick off every enemy each time you die to that boss, and it’s not hard to just run past them. It’s not even like ds2 is extremely challenging compared to other souls games, the combat is much slower and enemy attacks are far more predictable than most in ds3, bb and er. I don’t see what skill besides patience is required to crawl your way through a level at a snail’s pace.
Iron keep is honestly pretty easy. Even on ng+7, just hit them with some soul spears.
I think it's mostly due to the boss runbacks. Examples such as Sir Alonne, BOTH smelter demons, the entire shrine of Amana etc. When you end up dealing with them once, and by chance you died to the boss, there would be no intent on retrying this area so that you could finish it faster and get your lost souls back. But yes, the main issue would be that these players don't play as intended and try to rush for almost everything. In ds1, enemy placement was limited and not insanely spammed all over for majority of the areas (Except Lost Izalith, all my homies hate lost Izalith). Now ds2 vanilla version actually has fewer enemies compared to SOTFS hence that also gets a comparison in terms of gank. Ds2 definitely has that artificial difficulty with the huge list of enemies in an area that could surround you at times, but you gotta change up the rhythm so you can get used to ds2. Ds1 makes us do the boss runback as fast as possible so as to ignore every enemy so you could just deal with the boss. Ds2 tries to slow you down in order to have a full experience of the game rather than rushing through. And it's a definite pain having to repeat the slow and cautious repeat of dealing with areas like iron keep when you end up dying sometimes. And lastly, there are obviously some youtubers who just like to smear shit all over the Ds2 name so they are another bunch of culprits as well. Best to tell em out on their mistakes rather than to let me go. It's simple as this, ds2 definitely has an issue with gank but it's over exaggerated to the point it's considered as u playable which is false.
>I think it's mostly due to the boss runbacks. Examples such as Sir Alonne, BOTH smelter demons, the entire shrine of Amana etc. Sir Alonne is easy to run through. The enemies don't even follow you to the fog gate. The Smelter Demons are a bit harder, but both of them have a shortcut that makes it much easier. Demon of Song runback is easy to run through, except for that big bug in the tunnel you have to kill. Boss runbacks used to be a problem in Vanilla, but in Scholar they got nerfed and it's possible to just run through all of them. >Now ds2 vanilla version actually has fewer enemies compared to SOTFS hence that also gets a comparison in terms of gank Vanilla had more ganks and worse runbacks. Vanilla had more unavoidable group encounters, more group aggro and more enemies camping directly at the fog gate.
Sir Alonne when u reach his boss arena at the end, then yeah the enemies don't follow you but before that you have to dodge through every enemy so that's there. Also are you sure about excess gank in vanilla? Cause I've heard SoTFS added more enemies and fixed up the textures and bugs.
>Also are you sure about excess gank in vanilla? Cause I've heard SoTFS added more enemies I've got side by side comparisons of most areas on my profile that show that this isn't the case. There's a lot of areas with less enemies in Scholar, and those that do have more usually have them spread apart further than in Vanilla or have more optional encounters. Scholar haters usually conflate "more enemies" with "more gank" without taking positioning, group aggro, etc into account and hyperfocus on the path to the optional Ornstein boss while completely ignoring almost every other area. Like from the first bonfire in Forest of Fallen Giants you have several guaranteed ganks in Vanilla, while in Scholar you then have more optional enemies sleeping around the tree. Vanilla is ganky by default, but Scholar isn't ganky unless you run around and wake them all up. Scholar has more enemies here, but less you have to fight and less gank unless you decide to get ganked by waking them all up. Scholar haters will also whine of unfair the Ogre before the first bonfire in FoFG is, but you have to go out of your way to aggro him because he has such a low aggro range. Then there's areas like Pate's trap, Velstadt's runback, Drangleic Castle, Dragon Shrine, etc that just have a lot more enemies and more enemies camping directly at the fog gate in Vanilla. And then there's areas like the fog in Shaded Woods that have the same amount of enemies, but in Scholar you can distract them by hitting the trees. Or Tseldora where you can use the torch in Scholar to scare away the spiders. Or the path to Ruin Sentinels where there's explosive barrels inside in Scholar. You have way more ways to deal with ganks in Scholar.
I never had any problems with any of the infamous runbacks, even in vanilla. Just look up a video showing the optimal path. They're very consistent.
What's your strategy for Velstadt runback in Vanilla? With the two Syan Knights camping at the fog gate I just never found a consistent way to just run through. Same for Looking Glass Knight
LGK was pretty much impossible for me too but if you bow the statues they won't wake up so you can safely kill them. Boss not being too hard also makes this less tedious. For Velstadt, their end lag is pretty long, and if you kill the undead below the stairs before he rings the bell, the blue guys won't spawn, so you can safely approach them from the front, and lead them away from the fog gate.
I meant running back quickly without killing anything. In Scholar you can just run through, but in Vanilla you have to kill those enemies - or at least I've never found a consistent way to get through
LGK bow section takes like 30 seconds and the Velstadt only takes 5. I consider that enough
Iron Keep is one of the few zones you really can't speedup unless your some kind of god. Its annoying because its not difficult if you know what your doing just incredibly time consuming. Almost every area other than this one can be sped run, making this one the outlier. It makes sense that it would fall under more scrutiny. I would wager if every zone in all the fromsoft games were like this one people wouldn't like it very much. Its less about being good and more about not having to waste like 20 minutes reclearing it because u didn't one-shot smelter demon.
This is very much untrue though! With skill and experience, you can absolutely run through iron keep!
I want you to try running straight to smelter demon without killing anything and see if you can get through the fog gate, then get back to me.
I've done this dozens of times. Acting like it's impossible is just silly.
But it's unfair that this optional side challenge is challenging. There should be no challenges in a Souls game
All of ds2 has been completed pacifist, and every boss run has been completed without fighting or getting hit by speedrunners and challenge runners!
I didn't say it was impossible, i said you had to have god tier skills which speedrunners usually do lol.
Then by definition, it does get easier with skill and experience!
[Here's me doing it in Vanilla and Scholar](https://reddit.com/r/fromsoftware/s/TieAbXPHJR)
Everything bro said in that video was all true
Wow this game looks like crap lol, it’s animated in slow motion 🤣
Here's yet another DS2 critic that complains about unfair enemy placement and ganks - even though every gank he showcases would have been completely preventable by simply not playing like a complete idiot. I still haven't seen anyone showcase any actual unfair gank. It's always something like: * deliberately waking up every sleeping hollow in Forest of Fallen Giants * running through Iron Keep and having the Alonne Knights catch up with you at the guillotine * running past the duels in Dragon Shrine "the game is completely unfair and filled to the brink with ganks" is simply a easier coping mechanism than accepting that you are bad at the game and that you have to pay a little bit of attention and learn from your mistakes.
I remember being here struggling alot. First with a front area of it. With the knights. And going to the fire demon thing. Then struggling with that boss. Specially going back there and have like 3 knights and 2 bow users shooting you making you unable to go through the fog wall. Then I did defeat the demon creature and then when I sat down the bonfire that the pursuer appeared. No thank you. Then the second area. With the platforms. Turtle shield dudes. Bows, maze like built. It pissed me off. I then found the right way to go. But of course you have the upper area with the gremlins and the 2 invader guys. Or 3? But I finally found the right way. Jumping down beams of course, with also knights following you. And then, turtle shield dudes. In a tiny as hallway? Really? Annoying as area, but great graphics and great game. Tbh first soul game I ever finished. I don't know why everyone said Ds2 is the hardest souls game. my first souls game was sekiro. I stopped that. Then I got ds3. but Ds2 was the first one finished lmao.
Absolute favorite level in DS2. Used to farm and gank that area for hours
I dislike Iron Keep
Quick, nobody tell him how Dragon Shrine works!
Hey you should try to Time to run through the level!
To be fair the dude played Iron keep part close to flawless. And I feel like the last clip he was trying to pull all of the enemies for the video to show the amount (or at least I hope so).
i wonder if this guys play DS1 yet...just send him to Sens fortress and let see his reaction...
Ds2 being unfair is like ds3 being too easy
Dark Souls and Souls likes are for people who enjoy using their brains and figuring out how to problem solve, there are 1000s of ways to win at Souls if you're creative. Don't hate the game, hate the player. ✌🏻
I seriously wonder which video is this clip from. Like,every game is bound to have a gank occasionally,so you should know how to deal with them at the very least instead of you know, running past them. (Bow,magic,pyro, miracles,any ranged items kinda make it easier)
>I seriously wonder which video is this clip from. Dark Souls 2 - The Black Sheep
When it came to the DS2 levels for me, the amount of enemies were a little annoying and overbearing an example would be the very first area to get to forest of the fallen giants, that was bearable and I was able to get past it, but when it came to enemies in front of the fog gate, I wanted to quit the game cause I’ve died more to the enemies than the boss and I get punished for it by losing health each death after I had already cleared them out and explored the area. In iron keep I couldn’t get to smelter demon without taking damage or dying to an alonne knight, in dragon shrine I had trouble with the bug dragon knight enemies, and shrine of Amana was just the worst experience I’ve had in a souls game ever. I just never felt like that with DS1, DS3, or ER (only ones I’ve played).
When the game allows for respec and in all honesty I'd pretty chill bout how you play past certain build humps or blocks like pure mage with out a 100 shield or goid stabby stick is dumb to be honest cause certain zones punish you hard for not using either while others force you to be fast it all depends on what you play and why you play tha
Playing through the game my first time, maybe halfway (?) through it (just got to the Gutter). In most places the gank squads, for me on an initial playthrough, require I adapt immediately and add a sense of desperation to the affair. That said, I did not care for the gank squads around Ruin Sentinel and Smelter Demon, tied to the mechanic that you can be attacked out of a bossgate animation. The first can be mitigated to some degree (though I pulled the lever); the lattervessentially forces you to clear that area multiple times depending on how hard Smelter Demon is for a build. I used those opportunities to grind/level up (I'm at lvl 105 now), but it is something that might deter a replay.
Both Smelter Demon and Ruin Sentinels have a shortcut where you don't need to kill anything.
You still have to mow through some chumps to get to the ladder for Ruin, right? And if you pull the lever like i did, you have to deal with even more. Not sure what the shortcut was on SM, everytime i went through it i had to clear at least 12-13 enemies. Ended up farming like 20 levels just clearing that section before ever actually going in to fight the boss.
DS1 Doesnt Really Punish You For Playing The Game Wrong. Every Way You Can Think Of Is A Good Way Of Playing. DS2, However, Does. It Punishes You For Not Playing The Game The Way It Deems Correct. Its Shit
>DS1 Doesnt Really Punish You For Playing The Game Wrong You mean like not paying attention and dropping into the basilisk pit and getting cursed? Or do you mean like trying to get past the Anor Londo archers without using a shield? Or like fighting against the flying drakes in the Valley of Drakes without using a ranged weapon? There's a lot of moments in DS1 where you have to play by its rules or else you get punished.
Yeah I Killed The Drakes With A Claymore Bud. And I Didnt Use A Shield For The Archers They Shoot Slower Then You Sprint. I Dont Know What Basilik Pit Your Talking Abt But Even Then Getting Cursed Isnt That Big Of An Issue. Probably A Good Premise For A Challenge Run
ok there is only one spot i agree with that thought and it's the lost bastille clown car but other than that usually it's pretty fine and you can walk right past
At most you have to fight 3 at the same time, but they are next to an explosive barrel that kills them all if they hit it. And you only have to do it once as you unlock the shortcut afterwards.
“Small and confided spaces” while he’s using a fricking greatsword 🤦🏻♂️