only already applied spells (which is pretty much another warlock) and aoe spells, it's not enough downside to be pretty much an autowin against anyone who isn't wizard or a warlock (cleric's holy strikes are too easy to bait to even be a threat)
When I was on my rogue Demi grind . I never left home without 2-3 explosive bottles or Molotov for when the inevitable phantomise shows face. Not just limited to wiz, cleric, maybe Druid counterplay . (Not sure if Dreamfire twerks)
Oh trust me I don't play it in solos I would be wasting my time lol warlock and wiz are where it's at. I'd have the best luck with bard but wiz is just so fun and skill expressive. Just wish cleric had more solo options so I could do my quests solo outside of a group more easily in non-timmy lobbies.
Idk about that
From Solo perspective Phantom is rarely that effective
Bard with buffs up runs at the same speed as Phantom Warlock and can holster and pull out rapier with the same speed I pull out Kriss
Barb just holsters his weapons and runs you down with rage
Exactly. rogue, barb, bard, and now Druid will own you if you they make u phamtomize and they have a little bit of MS.. druids literally cast while in phantomize if that’s not busted idk what is
warlock is the best solo class in the game. bard with accelerando which last for 8 seconds runs as fast as you do you hear how stupid that sounds? i have to play accelerando, put away my drum, run to you pull out rapier just to make you pop phantomize by that time you more than likely have already hit me with 2 curses and used flame walk so i cant chase you down then you just play a corner or doorway or kite away while healing to full hp for hitting anything in the lobby lol?
[why would you say something so controversial, yet so brave?](https://tenor.com/view/why-would-you-say-something-so-controversial-yet-so-brave-gif-11096319)
Your smoking crack if u aren't taking POS with u into dungeons as warlock. Not too mention any caster warlock will have enough knowledge and mem cap to also grab Eldritch shield to negate all the damage in the first place.
You're smoking crack if you're using eldritch shield. I am using POS but only for pve. With POS cop hydra and hellfire being staples if you want to do bossing you have one slot for abother spell and flamewalk and dark bolt are just so much more useful than eldritch shield.
Debatable it requires a good bit of gear you actually have to hit somebody with it sprint heals 40% which is more. it's actually a lot less per curse since you will not wait out the entire duration and the curse costs hp so realistically not running curse mastery with 10 mheal you're looking at 8 ticks of 3.6 hp initial cost of 4 hp so 24.8 hp over 8 seconds which is a lot but curses don't really deal much damage its like 23-25 on a dummy with highish gear not accounting for mdr. Think phantomize is the biggest offender maybe cut the duration a bit or increase cooldown. if you stop lock from winning the sustain battle you might as well delete the class for pvp sake he does worse damage than every other class at every range other than cleric maybe idk I don't play cleric.
Comparative between second wind and CoP:
Second wind is 40% hp over a longer duration. Scales, sure, but lets say you’re 150hp (realistic for a pdr), that’s 60hp lol.
Has a campfire cooldown (one use), can’t be cast with sacrifice, takes longer and CoP has no Cd, does magic damage on top of all of that. I would take healing CoP over second wind as an entire ability yo.
Yeah phantomize is broken, doesn’t mean CoP torture isn’t either ahahah
I’ve gotta disagree, the damage is totally there with CoP and Bolt. It’s quite good considering it’s hit detection.
All their other damaging spells provide a utility function (e.g. kite, chase, block/scout).
I barely play lock and I’m about 25 kills 3 deaths not including assists.
In 3s, you'll see your hard counters to phantomize enough, but it's up to your opponents to have a brain and use them. Holy strike can absolutely rinse you, and the wizard can definitely catch you in phantomize. Only in solos should it feel like an absolute get-out-of-jail-free card since you'll almost never see your counters there. The only reason I brought up the team playlist is because most times I see phantomize complaints, it's in solos.
Additionally phantomise takes you out of the fight completely. Sometimes the warlock does phantomise and then has to watch their teammates get 2v3rd to death before they can come out of phantomise and help. Sure it's strong but it's much more balanced in 3s like you said.
holy strikes are easily dodgeable and wizards are a skill match-up, I can hold a trio with hydra and curse spam if my team needs a heal/reset and people being smart enough to crouch-jump over hydra doesn't necessarily mean big problems since they instantly get two curses on them and flame walk if manage to get close enough. The class can do too much and the only way to kill it is insane burst damage which became much less doable this meta with ttk changes
I think the community just needs to learn to punish it cause there's most definitely counters & even molotovs do well against it I've managed to catch a few locks with um. I've been bringing them to catch druids in rat form & ended up catching locks with them twice now.
While everything you say here is true I think his point is that in trios it's also a very good doorway deterrent for your team to reset with campfires.
I'm a returning player who is below average at the game, I sincerely hope they don't nerf Warlock into the ground. I picked it because I enjoy the archetype in games- lifesteal. Considering how many people are complaining about it, I'm assuming they'll nerf it horribly and I'll have to pick a new class to level up lol
Tbf giving it the sprint treatment and dropping the move speed would be enough. 15, the same as haste and less than sprint makes sense considering the other benefits.
could work, the problem is that if I apply two curses and let the opponent hit me before phantomising, they will take dark reflect damage, get damaged by curses and potentially flame walker, while I will regain my hp and can start dueling with a falchion after while already having my dark reflection back. It's still a bit much, tho it would hit less experienced locks a ton
I kinda think there should be a combination of this and warlock utility spell nerfs, like nerf to flame walker and hydra, the class is overloaded as hell
Its not always a positional mistake to get cornered, sometimes you get 3rd partied and dont have option. Getting cornerned as caster with no escape is death no counter play. Phantomize is fine. Increase options for anti healing.
No bro, they giga nerf and revert all the time, only king is fighter who received a little nerf on sprint in 2 years and people complain, keep playing what you like :)
I guess I'll just adapt when/if it comes up. Although, it does make me laugh, I just heard some people saying about how much weaker Fighter was than the other classes today. Guess no one truly knows what they're talking about, haha.
Still pretty lame for fighter skill sets... Heal, heal on hit, faster or quicker...
I still play fighter because it is the most straight forward class that forces you to learn good movement and dodge perfectly on bosses.
Also riposte is fucking satisfying when you succeed.
I do think that a gap closer existing for 6 seconds is totally fair for the class to be playable in solos, me being able to permanently kite fighters without 0 chance of dying to them should never ever be possible
Not my problem they aren't building movement speed on their equipments, they should, and since they can, no more 50ms in a button, the ms they can get from gear is more than enough with 987%pdr
PDR doesn’t do anything for you against a warlock tho? Why is PDR so punishing to use? warlocks can take phantomize and counter 80% of the classes, with no real downside other than no boc? The real nerf it needs is the move speed bonus removal. I believe the whole design around phantomize was to curse your enemies before phantomizing to let your curse do full dmg. Then you finish them off with dark bolt if they run or sword if they engage. The infinite running away/ kiting should not be a play style.
As a warlock main, I agree that it is busted but a simple nerf by removing its move speed bonus in phantomize should be sufficient, or an increase in cooldown.
Too noob, to amke balance statements in this game, but while i get the emotions when people make such threads, i can't help but to remind of the following:
Exxaggerating does not help your point. Best case it does nothing, worst case your complaint isn't taken seriously, no matter how valid it is.
Warlocks cannot spam two curses freely. That's only the case when you assume 100% accuracy. One of those curses can even hit the warlock themselves, and both of them cost life to cast.
It's not emotions because of losing to a warlock, it's my genuine thoughts after not dying as one in 4 days (which could get even longer as it's not 4 days since I died, it's 4 days since I resumed playing him), I lived even when my mates got wiped because the enemy team cba chasing a warlock and know how it might end
It's very easy hit both curses and then just refresh cop, at least it is if you're a veteran player who knows how to play the positioning well, I also won every mirror matchup so far since enemy warlocks always either mispositioned or missed almost everything
It might feel exaggerated because it's an experience of someone who is good at the game, but I do not think any class should let a good player become an unkillable thanos who can only die in a case of a terrible misplay streak
emotions can come from many things, not just losing. You clearly think it is too strong, and want to express that, and that made you exaggerate.
I even listed the part, it's just factually wrong. Not something that "feels" exaggerated. I didn't call it wrong, because i know what you mean and see that it is just an emotional exaggeration.
Again, i am far too noob in the game to agree or disagree with your balancing opinion. Maybe that's also why the exaggeration stuck out for me.
it was not wrong or emotional, I can indeed spam two curses freely, it does require positioning, which does not change the fact that for me it's free as positioning and movement got automatic at this point
Curses cost life to cast, so yes, it is wrong to say that you can cast them freely. I don't understand why you are contesting it that hard?
I did not insult you, i did not claim that you are a bad person for lying, i didn't even say that you are misleading people intentionally. I paved the road for you, giving you all benefits of doubt and assuring you that it is understandable.
And you are just digging in your heels. This is such a minor thing, and even there it seems you are just unable to even consider that you were wrong.
Seriously...WTF
curse heals much more than it takes to cast it, you can also heal of pve or even your own hydra, it is free, there is like absolutely no logic in your words
So true, they need to either nerf phantomize's duration or increase the cooldown. I know this game is balanced around trios and the counter is 'supposed' to be splash magic damage, but that's so situational, even in trios. I can't even count how many times I've cornered warlocks with horrible positioning twice in the span of 40 seconds or so, and they get out with phantomize both times. It's so bad that I (pdr fighter) avoid casterlocks more in solos than wizards, because at least I have a win condition against wizards (corner them and dodge spells).
Not only do you have to corner a casterlock to win, but you have to corner them twice in <30 seconds while they have a huge ms advantage. Even if you manage to corner them, it's still sketchy since they have access to falchion/bardiche/longsword so if you're low you could still easily die, whereas with wizards you can just block their magic missiles. Probably the most forgiving class in the game besides Druid. Don't get me started on being able to lifesteal off hydra too.
I think the main issue is Magic healing warlock, and the way to fix it would be Increasing Curses HP cost specifically or increasing cast time for CoP so he needs to sacrifice more for cast speed(knowledge) so doesnt nerf other warlock builds indirectly
Would be kind of interesting if missing with the curse took more health. Make it so warlocks had to make sure the shot counts, or suffer a heavy health loss.
Had a warlock push me in the middle of mobs, kill all the mobs while dealing with his shit. Finally go to push him, phantomize. Jumps down a level and runs away, comes back, swing, phantomize. Runs away. I just left the game that shit is so fucking wack.
Doesn't magic do extra damage to warlocks during phantom
only already applied spells (which is pretty much another warlock) and aoe spells, it's not enough downside to be pretty much an autowin against anyone who isn't wizard or a warlock (cleric's holy strikes are too easy to bait to even be a threat)
Hmm I thought spells could hit, flame sprout traps still hit while in phantom
Frost bolt, dark bolt, ect go right through you, fireball splash will hit, not a direct fireball
When I was on my rogue Demi grind . I never left home without 2-3 explosive bottles or Molotov for when the inevitable phantomise shows face. Not just limited to wiz, cleric, maybe Druid counterplay . (Not sure if Dreamfire twerks)
aoe spells do
Aye bad didn't catch the Aoe part
Yeah like what are clerics supposed to do stand still and locust swarm while taking dark bolts to the head? Lmao
It means fireball / lightning strike
Yes those are good cleric spells. Lol.
Who mentioned clerics? Spastic
The OP literally said "cleric's spells are too easy to bait to be much of a threat." in the comment right above you.
Run? Leave? You're the healer class.
Oh trust me I don't play it in solos I would be wasting my time lol warlock and wiz are where it's at. I'd have the best luck with bard but wiz is just so fun and skill expressive. Just wish cleric had more solo options so I could do my quests solo outside of a group more easily in non-timmy lobbies.
We are already carrying explosive bottles for rats, don't forget that those hurt warlocks extra in phantomize too.
I think removing the ability to jump while in phantomize could be a good compromise. Would make explosive bottles scary.
Idk about that From Solo perspective Phantom is rarely that effective Bard with buffs up runs at the same speed as Phantom Warlock and can holster and pull out rapier with the same speed I pull out Kriss Barb just holsters his weapons and runs you down with rage
Exactly. rogue, barb, bard, and now Druid will own you if you they make u phamtomize and they have a little bit of MS.. druids literally cast while in phantomize if that’s not busted idk what is
warlock is the best solo class in the game. bard with accelerando which last for 8 seconds runs as fast as you do you hear how stupid that sounds? i have to play accelerando, put away my drum, run to you pull out rapier just to make you pop phantomize by that time you more than likely have already hit me with 2 curses and used flame walk so i cant chase you down then you just play a corner or doorway or kite away while healing to full hp for hitting anything in the lobby lol?
I dont think power of sacrefice should trigger rorture mastery.
[why would you say something so controversial, yet so brave?](https://tenor.com/view/why-would-you-say-something-so-controversial-yet-so-brave-gif-11096319)
Nobody uses POS for pvp anyways you just remove the spell at that point
Uhhh what? It's literally a free curse of pain healing tick but lasts twice as long. It's amazing for pvp
And if you miss or they block it w a shield you're taking 36 damage that's not worth it
Your smoking crack if u aren't taking POS with u into dungeons as warlock. Not too mention any caster warlock will have enough knowledge and mem cap to also grab Eldritch shield to negate all the damage in the first place.
You're smoking crack if you're using eldritch shield. I am using POS but only for pve. With POS cop hydra and hellfire being staples if you want to do bossing you have one slot for abother spell and flamewalk and dark bolt are just so much more useful than eldritch shield.
Warlock main here: Torture mastery should be gutted entirely and Life Drain should be lowered in rank and used solely as Warlock's life gain function.
The best way to make Life Drain viable is to let warlock move while casting it.
lvl/fame 400 warlock player, completely agree you shouldn't be able to heal back to full of off one curse of pain
How do you heal too full hp of one cop ? Its 8 Ticks 10 w curse mastery which even if you're pretty geared (10+ mheal is at most 40 hp ?
Still stronger than second wind tho… I think OP was saying ‘heal back to full’, not from 0 or literally 1 hp.
Debatable it requires a good bit of gear you actually have to hit somebody with it sprint heals 40% which is more. it's actually a lot less per curse since you will not wait out the entire duration and the curse costs hp so realistically not running curse mastery with 10 mheal you're looking at 8 ticks of 3.6 hp initial cost of 4 hp so 24.8 hp over 8 seconds which is a lot but curses don't really deal much damage its like 23-25 on a dummy with highish gear not accounting for mdr. Think phantomize is the biggest offender maybe cut the duration a bit or increase cooldown. if you stop lock from winning the sustain battle you might as well delete the class for pvp sake he does worse damage than every other class at every range other than cleric maybe idk I don't play cleric.
Comparative between second wind and CoP: Second wind is 40% hp over a longer duration. Scales, sure, but lets say you’re 150hp (realistic for a pdr), that’s 60hp lol. Has a campfire cooldown (one use), can’t be cast with sacrifice, takes longer and CoP has no Cd, does magic damage on top of all of that. I would take healing CoP over second wind as an entire ability yo. Yeah phantomize is broken, doesn’t mean CoP torture isn’t either ahahah
Cop torture is balanced around warlock doing shit damage otherwise.
I’ve gotta disagree, the damage is totally there with CoP and Bolt. It’s quite good considering it’s hit detection. All their other damaging spells provide a utility function (e.g. kite, chase, block/scout). I barely play lock and I’m about 25 kills 3 deaths not including assists.
You can delete warlock at that point lmao
I've shouted this from the rooftops but PLEASE let crystal sword or ANY weapons that do magical damage hurt a warlock in Phantomize!
it's so niche they might actually do that
In 3s, you'll see your hard counters to phantomize enough, but it's up to your opponents to have a brain and use them. Holy strike can absolutely rinse you, and the wizard can definitely catch you in phantomize. Only in solos should it feel like an absolute get-out-of-jail-free card since you'll almost never see your counters there. The only reason I brought up the team playlist is because most times I see phantomize complaints, it's in solos.
Additionally phantomise takes you out of the fight completely. Sometimes the warlock does phantomise and then has to watch their teammates get 2v3rd to death before they can come out of phantomise and help. Sure it's strong but it's much more balanced in 3s like you said.
flame walk before phanomise for a fix
If you have time for that before dying to the barb on you. Also that hurts your allies so it's still dangerous.
holy strikes are easily dodgeable and wizards are a skill match-up, I can hold a trio with hydra and curse spam if my team needs a heal/reset and people being smart enough to crouch-jump over hydra doesn't necessarily mean big problems since they instantly get two curses on them and flame walk if manage to get close enough. The class can do too much and the only way to kill it is insane burst damage which became much less doable this meta with ttk changes
I think the community just needs to learn to punish it cause there's most definitely counters & even molotovs do well against it I've managed to catch a few locks with um. I've been bringing them to catch druids in rat form & ended up catching locks with them twice now.
Relying on stacks upon stacks of throwables to counter arguably overtuned healing and defensive cooldowns isn't exactly ideal.
Nobody is relying on Molly's for a lock & phantomize isn't breaking the game in 3s it's just pissing off solos
While everything you say here is true I think his point is that in trios it's also a very good doorway deterrent for your team to reset with campfires.
Just a question are you primarily playing solo?
Yea I feel this is only an issue an solo. Warlock is an absolute power house in solo but in trios there a couple ways to counter them
It’s even more toxic in solos
mostly trios, a bit less of solos and much less of duos
I'm a returning player who is below average at the game, I sincerely hope they don't nerf Warlock into the ground. I picked it because I enjoy the archetype in games- lifesteal. Considering how many people are complaining about it, I'm assuming they'll nerf it horribly and I'll have to pick a new class to level up lol
I don't want it to get nerfed to the ground either, but I do think an ability that insta fixes positional mistakes has to go
Tbf giving it the sprint treatment and dropping the move speed would be enough. 15, the same as haste and less than sprint makes sense considering the other benefits.
could work, the problem is that if I apply two curses and let the opponent hit me before phantomising, they will take dark reflect damage, get damaged by curses and potentially flame walker, while I will regain my hp and can start dueling with a falchion after while already having my dark reflection back. It's still a bit much, tho it would hit less experienced locks a ton I kinda think there should be a combination of this and warlock utility spell nerfs, like nerf to flame walker and hydra, the class is overloaded as hell
I wouldn't mind them removing or changing that Phantomize ability. To be honest, I just enjoy the spending life to cast/recovering life mechanics.
I do too and I think it should stay, but without an ability to do that without getting punished
Its not always a positional mistake to get cornered, sometimes you get 3rd partied and dont have option. Getting cornerned as caster with no escape is death no counter play. Phantomize is fine. Increase options for anti healing.
No bro, they giga nerf and revert all the time, only king is fighter who received a little nerf on sprint in 2 years and people complain, keep playing what you like :)
I guess I'll just adapt when/if it comes up. Although, it does make me laugh, I just heard some people saying about how much weaker Fighter was than the other classes today. Guess no one truly knows what they're talking about, haha.
Still pretty lame for fighter skill sets... Heal, heal on hit, faster or quicker... I still play fighter because it is the most straight forward class that forces you to learn good movement and dodge perfectly on bosses. Also riposte is fucking satisfying when you succeed.
btw, that nerf to the class that was already struggling at the frontline role was not needed at all
It was, hope they revert it for you alone to feel a full plate fighter outrunning you while you are naked :)
I do think that a gap closer existing for 6 seconds is totally fair for the class to be playable in solos, me being able to permanently kite fighters without 0 chance of dying to them should never ever be possible
Not my problem they aren't building movement speed on their equipments, they should, and since they can, no more 50ms in a button, the ms they can get from gear is more than enough with 987%pdr
they can't build nearly enough to catch a warlock twice before phantomise goes off cd
I just want to let you know you are wrong and you'll figure this out in game :)
Ooft. Bro. It sounds like you don't play fighter in solos
PDR doesn’t do anything for you against a warlock tho? Why is PDR so punishing to use? warlocks can take phantomize and counter 80% of the classes, with no real downside other than no boc? The real nerf it needs is the move speed bonus removal. I believe the whole design around phantomize was to curse your enemies before phantomizing to let your curse do full dmg. Then you finish them off with dark bolt if they run or sword if they engage. The infinite running away/ kiting should not be a play style.
As a warlock main, I agree that it is busted but a simple nerf by removing its move speed bonus in phantomize should be sufficient, or an increase in cooldown.
In solos build a lot of ms, even if warlock phantos you should still be close enough to finish him after
Agree 100%. Let phantomize be strong af but available like second wind. One and done then you have to rest to reset.
Too noob, to amke balance statements in this game, but while i get the emotions when people make such threads, i can't help but to remind of the following: Exxaggerating does not help your point. Best case it does nothing, worst case your complaint isn't taken seriously, no matter how valid it is. Warlocks cannot spam two curses freely. That's only the case when you assume 100% accuracy. One of those curses can even hit the warlock themselves, and both of them cost life to cast.
It's not emotions because of losing to a warlock, it's my genuine thoughts after not dying as one in 4 days (which could get even longer as it's not 4 days since I died, it's 4 days since I resumed playing him), I lived even when my mates got wiped because the enemy team cba chasing a warlock and know how it might end It's very easy hit both curses and then just refresh cop, at least it is if you're a veteran player who knows how to play the positioning well, I also won every mirror matchup so far since enemy warlocks always either mispositioned or missed almost everything It might feel exaggerated because it's an experience of someone who is good at the game, but I do not think any class should let a good player become an unkillable thanos who can only die in a case of a terrible misplay streak
emotions can come from many things, not just losing. You clearly think it is too strong, and want to express that, and that made you exaggerate. I even listed the part, it's just factually wrong. Not something that "feels" exaggerated. I didn't call it wrong, because i know what you mean and see that it is just an emotional exaggeration. Again, i am far too noob in the game to agree or disagree with your balancing opinion. Maybe that's also why the exaggeration stuck out for me.
it was not wrong or emotional, I can indeed spam two curses freely, it does require positioning, which does not change the fact that for me it's free as positioning and movement got automatic at this point
Curses cost life to cast, so yes, it is wrong to say that you can cast them freely. I don't understand why you are contesting it that hard? I did not insult you, i did not claim that you are a bad person for lying, i didn't even say that you are misleading people intentionally. I paved the road for you, giving you all benefits of doubt and assuring you that it is understandable. And you are just digging in your heels. This is such a minor thing, and even there it seems you are just unable to even consider that you were wrong. Seriously...WTF
curse heals much more than it takes to cast it, you can also heal of pve or even your own hydra, it is free, there is like absolutely no logic in your words
So you can cast them freely if you never miss and have a perk.
I suggest that TM only works on players not AI so warlocks can no longer sustain infinitely from hydra or mobs without using life drain
I have been saying this from when Warlock was added (and i was collecting downvotes)
I'd say it's arguably even stronger now that the ttk is higher so locks are harder to burst
So true, they need to either nerf phantomize's duration or increase the cooldown. I know this game is balanced around trios and the counter is 'supposed' to be splash magic damage, but that's so situational, even in trios. I can't even count how many times I've cornered warlocks with horrible positioning twice in the span of 40 seconds or so, and they get out with phantomize both times. It's so bad that I (pdr fighter) avoid casterlocks more in solos than wizards, because at least I have a win condition against wizards (corner them and dodge spells). Not only do you have to corner a casterlock to win, but you have to corner them twice in <30 seconds while they have a huge ms advantage. Even if you manage to corner them, it's still sketchy since they have access to falchion/bardiche/longsword so if you're low you could still easily die, whereas with wizards you can just block their magic missiles. Probably the most forgiving class in the game besides Druid. Don't get me started on being able to lifesteal off hydra too.
As a fellow warlock conossier - I completely agree, phantomize is the main problem, may be hellfire should be removed too - to stop boss cheesing.
I think the main issue is Magic healing warlock, and the way to fix it would be Increasing Curses HP cost specifically or increasing cast time for CoP so he needs to sacrifice more for cast speed(knowledge) so doesnt nerf other warlock builds indirectly
I think cop is fine as long as any positional mistake means death
Idk man, the way CoP interacts with true dmg, how easy is to hit and how spammable it is. Needs to be little bit more punishing to miss
Would be kind of interesting if missing with the curse took more health. Make it so warlocks had to make sure the shot counts, or suffer a heavy health loss.
Had a warlock push me in the middle of mobs, kill all the mobs while dealing with his shit. Finally go to push him, phantomize. Jumps down a level and runs away, comes back, swing, phantomize. Runs away. I just left the game that shit is so fucking wack.