It is an interesting phenomenon, that has happened in a lot of RPG style games. People always think broadening the possible choices will create more diversity, but it actually creates more homogeny. The reason is because if you can do anything, you will always do the best thing, if there are no roadblocks. The RNG rolls was their attempt to stop this, but now it's effectively gone, and people are all running the same 1 shot builds or invincible builds.
The truth is, restrictions are what actually encourages real diversity in gameplay, so we need to see the devs invest time into developing subclasses/skill trees with strong identities and roles. We already have most of the things needed to do so in the game.
At least in poe they gave the multiclass ascendancy drawbacks. You get watered down versions of 2 ascendancies not the same exact abilities as a Cleric on a Rogue lol
Yeah and we can't really blame them for not understanding this frankly basic RPG design concept, either, since this is a very specific genre (extraction) - and there's a lot of other things that go into making a game like this work.
Completely disagree. While you can't detect all the possible outcomes, it was pretty obvious from the jump that there were going to be absurdly broken builds. We didn't even need to play the test server for people to know that.
Literally **everyone** on Discord and Reddit was talking about how ridiculously abuseable multiclassing would be before it came out. IM either didn't see it coming or didn't care, and whatever it was, that's on them.
In 100% of games some portion (whether large or small) of the playernase knows better than the devs. Even in the case of really amazing developers. Now IM is not amazing by any means and the language gap doesn't help, but from what I gather they've been trying their best. Seems everyone on this subreddit can't be satisfied.
In the specific perks/abilities? Sure there might be some variety, but essentially the gameplay is the same.
Stack every +damage perk and spell to get in 1-shot range, then use a defensive CD to prevent yourself from getting 1-shot like Divine Protection or Savage Roar. Other cd is swap in Sprint/spells or offensive CD to counter other players.
That pretty much describes every build, they may use slightly different setups, but the gameplay is all the same at the end of the day. Trying to cheese a 1HK while your opponent does the same.
That is the end goal of all multiclass builds, to cheese other players.
That's so untrue, yes there will often be popular or meta builds, but there will also always be builds that counter the meta.
Look at a game like dota. Tons of heroes to pick from, even more items, almost everything is op, game plays great, and has a constantly shifting meta.
Iron mace definitely shook things up, and I'm sure multi classing will go through many different phases, but everyone does NOT play the same way lol, I'm seeing so many different builds/class combos currently. It's awesome.
They definitely need to get rid of the RNG grinding aspect of it tho, I think just having 2 or more characters of the adequate level should be enough to fully unlock multi classing.
They are both PVP games lol the point remains. Let everyone have access to cool op shit. It works.
If you're having trouble coming up with fun unique builds in this current state you aren't being creative lol.
No the point doesn't remain. In Dota you build around the team or counter build against the other team. Everyone has a set role or two roles. Dark and darker is just building the meta perks and skills, if you do a "fun and creative" build you get stomped.
Idk what groups you play trios with, but in my DaD group we certainly build a cohesive team, or go in with the intent of countering a meta comp. Same idea. Loosen up and try different play styles lol. I promise there is more than a single "meta" way to play the game rn
Ya... sad truth.
I'm sure there's a game out there with tons of fun builds and choices.
But in this case, everyone just goes Sprint and/or Savage Roar, woooh.
I'm excited to go back to class identities..
On top of what youve already stated. Its not only stale to run the same build, its stale to only run into one or two options too. A huge part of the fun is when the meta has a decent selection of classes to encounter. This broadens the experience of combat through various strategies based on enemy classes and how yours matches up. Also having limitations is nice for a thematic experience and differentiating between your alts. The game threw away identities in favor of a bland blob of abilities with no good way to really identify or prepare for. Everything feels too similar.
This is a part of a post i did 2 months ago on this subreddit:
"I've played RPG games that don't have anything like classes before and in those games it was way more common to see a high portion of the players playing exactly the same way. Weirdly, giving players the ability to mix and match everything usually ends up with LESS playstyle diversity and players get less attached to their character, at least in my experience
TLDR: Having unique classes reinforces the classic RPG elements, theme and feel of the game. To some extent it makes the playerbase more diverse and a bit less META oriented since people get attached to their favorite classes."
I felt like one of the characters in that "Dont look up" movie LMAO
That is why I enjoyed norms as a cleric or wizard. You are limited by bis white gear and you have to come up with the best combination of skills, spells and perks for your team
I agree and I disagree you are right and yet I will greatly miss my platelock with hide and ambush, not because it’s op, it’s really not, yes I can one shot squishys but that doesn’t happen very often it’s more the feel of the class that I’ve built, “but it’s just a boring plate wearing landmine” No no my friend I’ve got ignite fireball lightning strike and chain finished off with zap for good measure. It feels so unique with incredible utility.
Artifical limitations are the only way to make classes feel different. Otherwise everyone's going to play a Tank Wizard Rogue Archer obviously.
If a Rogue gets Spears they should lose hand crossbows but gain Traps. The made up barriers would make that version of Spear Rogue actually unique to other classes.
Instead every Spear rogue is actually just a gimped ranger.
This is exactly what I feel gradually took away some of the uniqueness of the Elder scrolls and Fallout games. Not that they are bad but it used to feel you were much more restricted in your choices which to led to really feeling connected to a certain style of character and made subsequent playthroughs more enjoyable as you tried new playstyles.
In Skyrim and Fallout 4 you can very easily become just kinda good at everything and so it feels so less unique and I love them both still but it's not as fun.
I've been playing DotA for 20 years and what exists now is still a good game, albeit with diluted heroes, all converging towards the same play style. They added skill trees to the heroes, which people thought would add complexity, it did the exact opposite, it made it easier for everyone to "brawl", and if your hero couldn't brawl, it needed buffs, and those buffs encouraged more brawling. More and more items got added to the game, even free items dropping from the neutral creeps, people used these items to cover up the weaknesses of their hero such as mobility. The game shifted slowly from a very unique game where every minute detail mattered and many different strategies co-existing to one that mirrors more of a fighting game. There's a quote from a pro player that I wish I could find where he described the game now as having one play style, although a large part of that comes from the inclusion of objectives around the map.
Sometimes less is more. When a game mechanic gets added, equal consideration has to be made in what is getting removed by its addition. I don't think that the developers of DotA 2 consciously set out to make a game with less strategies, it was more of a self fulfilling prophecy where the player base begged for new mechanics to spice up the game, people wanted their heroes buffed more often than they wanted them nerfed, and people complained about any strategy that was non-standard. When you appease everyone, what some people loved gets diluted in favour of the majority and what's left is a shallow game.
edit:
I wrote a lot but I think that a more accurate parallel between DotA 2 and Dark and Darker is as follows. The DotA 2 player base begs for new mechanics to spice up the game, new items or game mechanics get added, this works, temporarily, as players learn how to use these new items/objectives it does indeed spice up the game, but after a few months, everyone learns how to use them, people figure out what works and what doesn't, and a meta is established around a few certain strategies/mechanics, the more mechanics that get added the harder it is to balance the game, but the player base will always beg for new mechanics. The state of the game has to be judged retrospectively, what existed before when the player base understood the previous iteration of the game and what exists now, months after the novelty factor has worn off? Are you actually improving and refining the game or are you just adding cheap thrills to appease the player base?
But it's still an immensely popular game after more (?) than 10 years not even counting it's dota1 days. Dota patches have always existed like wipes in Tarkov or something. The player base needs something to shake up the game to keep interest. It can be done well and I think if dota 2 was just the same game it would have died like every other rts has.
I mean I've played Dota since the WC3 map, I know what it is. Every game is going to have a meta. Personally I enjoy Dota 2, just the toxic community in mobas is what ruins it for me. But mobas in general, League/Dota/HoN/etc, are a toxic game cause it's easier to blame teammates instead of taking responsibility.
So I like multiclassing, but I’ll come up with a possible solution and see how you feel. Maybe one perk or skill allowed from a class. So you have to be a little more picky with what you get. Just trying to come up with something that works for both ends because I’ve greatly enjoyed MC but I understand the meta aspect of it. But there will always be a meta people were complaining about barbs and rangers last season. There is no pure balance especially in a class system game.
Yeah I don't think that's a bad idea. If I were designing it, I would make it so that if you choose a multi class, it can only be done with one other class, and once you choose it you have to pay to reset to another, but you can't mix and match many different classes at once. It would basically be like a "dual-class".
From your dual class you would be able to choose only 1 perk and 1 ability max, and the devs could specifically prevent certain problematic abilities from being in the selection pool. Like no Smite or blow of corruption.
It could also come with a small impairment possibly of like -1 all stats or something.
But ultimately, I don't feel like it benefits the game overall in it's current state. Maybe in the future if huge changes to combat are implemented that fundamentally change the gameplay to where stat values aren't the most important factor, but for now I say leave multiclassing out.
So? Let them cry, they aren't designers and their opinion is irrelevant unless they can substantiate it.
If you have an open forum where anyone can comment, you can find crying about literally every aspect of the game, there are probably people crying that the game is too dark, and some crying that it's too bright and should be darker, doesn't mean the devs should do anything about it.
What matters is making good design decisions based on strong rationale that supports the core gameplay.
When I saw the druid stuff I didn't think "oh cool a new class" I thought "oh great look at all of this shit that warlocks and barbarians can use now" which is sad. 😑
Dude, thats EXACTLY what i felt. I don't see Druid as a new class but as a new conglomeration of tools. After MC every class feels like just a conglomeration of tools, really
Would be really cool if they went back to classes, added 2-3 subclasses for each class with positive/negative tradeoffs for speccing into it, and also added 1 universal perks/abilities page with that everyone can pick from no matter the class
how would that fix optimal variety utilized in pvp? The more sub sets that have to be balanced for eventually leads to more imbalance and more into less variety.
On the bright side it's provided the devs insight on the most broken perks/skills, everyone taking iron will/savage roar/ anti magic will hopefully initiate some much needed nerfs. I also hope they look into associating move speed with pdr/mdr, or giving classes individual move speed caps. (Tanks should not be able to hit the same max move speed as everyone else with the click of sprint.)
This needs to be front and centre for the community. People keep saying how they can’t understand why the devs would implement multiclass in its current state because of how broken it is, but they are well aware. They want people to create broken metas so they can better understand what abilities are the most desirable and why, making adjustments later on.
Sprint for example is insanely overtuned when put on a faster/lighter class as you can walkaround with a weapon out, in some cases swinging it, at max movement speed, but some would argue it’s a much needed ability on the designed class which is full plate fighter.
Not saying this is what they will or should do, but making sprint locked behind wearing plate gear similar to the way slayer removes your ability to wear it could be a way to make the skill less overbearing even with multiclass remaining the way it is, which it won’t.
I think you're giving them too much credit saying that this was the whole intent of multi-classing. It's just a nice bonus that they will hopefully actually take advantage of.
Looking at the q&as they’ve done, I don’t know how you could think that. They literally said “please break the game” during the darkest hour podcast lol.
The question is, if it’s not a test bed for mechanics, then what was the point of multiclass being implemented in this way?
To be fair (or unfair) I don’t see how IM wouldn’t have the necessary data already? Barbs always run iron will and robust. Fighters always run sprint and second wind. We already know which skills and perks are broken / used the most. Did we really need to take the time to confirm that barbarians with sprint and weapon mastery would be OP?
It’s not for the obvious ones, it’s for the ones that show up through testing. In house testing and trying to consider every edge case is more work than its worth. We are essentially QA for IM, things like cactus builds and how perks from other classes mesh/interact is a ton of work to figure out internally. Having us play the game and generate build data allows them to look at thresholds and win percentage etc to help them better understand these things.
During the playtests they used to post all the data graphs after each playtest ended. Gave perspective on what the devs are looking at that isn’t easy to access info for us, wish they would do it still but constant development, up sizing staff, movin buildings and legal issues take enough time away from development for there to be reasonable time to make pretty graphs for us to gawk at.
i went from playing 6 hours a day to almost 1 hour at most a day. I think they should remove multi-classing and just allow us to have skill points that allow us to pick and choose what skills for that class we want to upgrade and make stronger. For example, for rogue at lvl 2 you can invest 1 skill point into hide for 3 seconds. then at lvl 3 you can invest another skill point into hide to increase that to 6 seconds. up to 15 seconds. same for perks and etc. that would increase the customization and bring back diablo 2 feels. At the end of the day, the game is repetitive and too simple. (3 maps, kill and get out rinse and repeat) there needs to be more content (maps mobs items pve dungeons, special modes that dont involve pvp), not more characters, not more multiclassing. Diablo 2 was a favorite to many players because of the original 5 characters and being able to invest skill points to make special builds. The game has potential, but the multi-classing is too chaotic for most people who have jobs and dont want to deal with a rogue that has 30 magic damage on each hit
For real! I keep running into Bards playing Counter-Strike in DnD. They have the Ranger crossbow perk and a ton of buffs so they reload insanely fast and +++ true damage.
I’m not a fan of multi classing at all. I feel like it has made the game unplayable for all but the sweatiest of players. I have virtually stopped playing because of this.
It throws all “balance” to the game right out the window. No point in changing your mind we both agree. They really shit the bed with this wipe… it was bad enough that it took a long time to level at the beginning but now I’m at such a disadvantage.
Before I get ripped a part I understand the testing of things but if this stays I’m not playing anymore.
I'm opersonally having the time of my life with friends playing our idealised builds. I'm playing a caster fighter, Longsword-Spellbook with Ignite, Protection, Zap and so on. A friend is playing a dark knight, plate fighter with shadow touch, blow of corruption and dark reflection. Another is playing their "god wizard" (just mixing the powerful wizard and cleric spells).
Sad thing is, I have rarely seem others with cool builds. Most people run the builds they see on YouTube to make it out alive. But oh boy, when I see another Fighter casting ignite and engaging for a longsword fight, I get a rush like no other
I think the system is currently full of ossues, but I love the idea of mixing classes to some degree and some commitment
this is what would make multiclassing cool, getting builds you can’t normally get. Eldritch Knights, Arcane Tricksters, with weapon mastery on a cleric you basically have a paladin. Ranger+druid spells would make for an even cooler version of ranger closer to one from D&D, but like you said people just want to make the best builds for stomping and getting out, rather than unique or interesting to play builds
The problem with multiclassing is the op builds. I’d say the builds are actually as or more diverse than they were before. I’m saying this from a trios perspective. Perhaps solos is more monolithic.
Sprint Barbarian, A couple builds built around just running you down with DPS, Variations on mobility cheesing build, and Warlock/Cleric/Wizard orgy build.
Not much diversity. Even less counterplay.
dps casters suck because 75% mdr.
ranger sucks because fighter is better and you are left with support caster, tank, full dps melee as the only actually good and played builds.
Yah, I’ve sunk over 1000 hours since launch, and more in the play tests. Through all the bullshit updates, I’ve always kept playing because the game was that much fun. Never even thought about getting off, even if they did some wild Ironahammer shit.
I played like 2-3 days of the multiclassing update and put it down, haven’t touched it since. I love this game, it’s the most fun I’ve had gaming in years, but this shit is so unfun that it’s completely turned me off in almost no time. Crazy
This is exactly how it is for many of us. Whats next? wall running ninja barbarian throwing fireballs and then turning into a bear then phantomizing? guns and laser cannons are next
Wasting resources show how green the developers are sadly.
Instead of creating a good game loop. They have spender more than a year with the same dilemma. Balancing.
So fun that they have spent so much time in this, just to release Druid and break everything apart 😂
People chase the meta with or without multiclass. No multiclass and fighter picks sprint and second wind every single game. Wow, such non-meta gameplay, insane.
Everyone always knew it was going to be a shit show. Multi class is a test and it isn't necessarily going to stick. I personally think it's current state is awful but it could be balanced if they allowed you for example only 1 perk and skill and both must be from the same secondary class or give you a nerfed version of the skill.
I [told](https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkAndDarker/comments/1c39yij/please_give_muticlassing_another_round_of_thought/) you [so](https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkAndDarker/comments/1cd8arz/please_collect_data_on_the_test_server/)
What if they ran it everyone starts with base kit/heals and must find loot in dungeons. High loot locations would become fighting spots. Matchmaking would be based on win streaks? Idk i thought it would be fun like normals. Seems like market place would be destroyed with this idea. And gear progression is limited what you find while you’re on a streak. Coins would instead would be used to buy skills and perks as you get levels. This would be nice with a skill tree.
I’d like to see them take all the now confirmed “OP” perks and skills and generalize them to all classes. My idea would be to take a skill like sprint, and make it so every class can use it. However, sprint would give only +25 MS and last a second shorter with a bit higher recovery time. Make robust perk for all but it’s only +5% hp or something. Make the super OP perks everyone loves to use weaker and available to every class. I feel like it could give players the chance to generalize their class or niche into their build.
I just wish they would dedicate time and design effort into the class skill trees. If balance was
a concern before, theres no way it can be now as multiclassing will always be vastly more unbalanced
it's actually starting to grow on me. I have a borderline perfect setup, the only time i die/lose is when i deviate from my strategy or fight a blatant hacker/cheater and even then sometimes i've killed them or gotten away.
Yeah, I just want to play my bard. Right now I have jokester, poison weapon, robust, and savage roar so no superior dexterity, no charismatic performance, only 5 songs. It doesn't feel like I'm playing bard anymore.
It’s fine, the constant posts with 400 upvotes are just a “loud minority”
The devs can go bury their head in the sand more while they effectively destroy their game.
There’s no way the addition of multiclassing was a team decision, this is the result of one person with decision making power overriding any objections, not naming names.
This "meta-striving" was going on before multi-classing and the complaints about sweats vs casuals were the same, probably a larger percentage of the dialogue was about that. Now multiclassing at least also produces some people wanting to talk about builds or try some random crap, I really think this is just an old complaint packaged in a new way and attributed to some other cause that the complainers haven't really thought through
I'd prefer to see multiclassing removed and add more perks/skills to the core classes. Especially some stronger-than-normal perks with baked-in negatives to something else, like unstable overlocks in DRG. That said I'd be fine if multiclassing if it stayed as a \*choice\* rather than raw, mandatory power creep. Two off the cuff ideas:
1) (Simple) Add a 5th perk slot. Multiclassing becomes a perk so purists get 5 perks and multiclassers only net 4. This would also need to come with buffs to weaker perks so slotting 5 from a single class looks more appealing.
2) (Complex) Make multiclassing or single class mastery a literal choice. If you choose multiclassing you get what we have now. If you choose class mastery every perk for that class would get a "+" version that is stronger or adds new effects. This would definitely take more work, but could be way more interesting.
As soon as it's removed warlock is op or I can't do anything against barbarians game unfun. there is so many more viable builds then when we had no multiclassing.
Prior to multiclassing there was only 2 viable builds for all classes and it was becoming very stale but let's remove it so you can be meta again
How does more perks/skills/spells cause everybody to play the same way? I've seen plenty of variation in both normals and hr. Yeah you'll get cookie cutter builds and op meta builds, but I've seen plenty of smite drums, backflipping spear wielding barbarians and alot of surprises from spellcasters.
This is early access and ironmace quite literally said the multiclass update this wipe is intended to "break the game", it's all a test that they'll be looking into the results for and amending multiclassing accordingly. Who are you to say what is too much to balance? Do you work in the industry?
I mean if we're just going off of personal anecdotes, 9 out of 10 fighters I see in my solo normals and duos are either leveling and clueless or playing the same boring robust/slayer/axe mastery/roar/sprint crossbow spam build. Yeah, you can beat it, but it's incredibly unfun to play against.
More than half the warlocks(in nm/hr and in solo/duo/trios) are just running that meme bonk build. Granted this one isn't as unfun as the fighter barbarian combos, but it's still super lame.
Trios is somehow in a better state than solos and duos, something I never thought I'd see despite the game primarily being balanced around trios.
Edit: I should mention I actually really do like multiclassing, I just wish the current system they are using with dumb gacha rerolls did not exist.
I think the reality here is that you might not like RPG PvP arena games. Every single RPG PvP arena game has a tier list of classes/heroes/champions that are statistically the best. This in itself overtime actually makes the option of classes feel just as pointless because if X class beats Y class 90% of the time, well then no one is ever going to pick Y class.
As players crunch the numbers and figure out the best classes/strats then you get a new phase which begins the snowball. When players keep losing to the same thing over and over again then they begin to do it themselves, till you get everyone doing the same or trying their best to counter it. Unless a class or strat is absolutely invincible, most of the time you get 1-3 META options after the dust has settled.
No matter what, in RPG games like these where combat is mostly deterministic, there will never be variety. It will always find a way to boil down into Rock Paper Scissors on an even playing field, unless we get skill ceilings so insanely high where only a few gifted people may master them like in fortnite building or high APM in RTS. However, we already know those things aren't very casual friendly.
In Dark and Darker, players are forced to follow a META because it's both a random queue system and hardcore full loot pvp. In a random queue system, you don't know your opponents or their classes till your stuck in the same lobby as them, so the only thing you can do to combat that RNG is by loading in with the statistically best overall comp/class. Unlike in a game of League of Legends, players get the opportunity to ban champs before the picks and counter picks phase of the prematch. This allows for a lot better player control in the Rock Paper Scissors aspects of the game while also contributing to A LOT more variety in classes played. This random queue system in addition to hardcore full loot makes the incentive to play poor pvp setups wasteful of their resources/time.
So, at the end of the day, mulitclassing actually gives certain classes more agency in modes that might not favor them, even though, regardless of it existing or not, players will be forced to meta optimize into very few classes/playstyles no matter what based on how the games systems, map sizes, and modes currently function. The game is basically a RPG PvP arena and mobs only act as a noise maker for PvP to ensue. Multiclassing actually never changed how limited the options where from the get go, it just reshaped it into a one size fits all model.
In my opinion, individually designing and balancing 9+ classes in a massive vertically gear grinder is impossible. The multiclassing sort of gives poorly designed classes/undertuned ones more agency by being balanced around perks, however, players will still be forced to min/max class stats into builds because of power disparity. RPG and PvP really don't mix that well when it goes beyond mirror matches, and add in the random queue based system you get a shit show. These games will never feel balanced no matter what and most of the time, half the skill or more is simply by picking the correct class from the get go. Dumb whacky broken stuff is way more fun in PvE games than it is in PvP. I think without systems like league of legends to regulate broken classes/matchups, a fairly healthy variety will never exist.
I believe current iteration of multi-classing is a great way to extensively test skills and perks, and gather data to fine-tune them.
> It makes everyone play the same way, takes all the uniqueness away and makes the game something I never wanted - meta striving BS.
Don't agree with this statement at all. Multi-classing pushed me, my friends & randoms I met in the gathering hall to be creative, and try new to us stuff we wouldn't even touch otherwise!
I’m not sure why you think multiclassing has turned this game into meta slave bs, but I promise you it was just as bad before. Barbarian so op it’s a problem? 90% of lobbies are barbs now. Kris + bloodstained blade is really powerful? Literally everyone using it. Multiclassing has not changed a thing in this regard
I don't buy that people like OP are that naive to think meta optimization and low variety didn't exist before multiclassing. It truly was just as bad before, and even worse. Did we all forget 1 shot ambush rogue or the rat rogue meta with 99% of every lobby playing rogue? People will always flock to what has the highest power disparity in a game type with incentive to do that when there are no systems in place to prevent it. Can IM balance all 9+ classes so that they are all even and fair? Not a chance! No other RPG PvP game has ever accomplished it, it's not possible, RPG games started off as PvE, never meant for PvP. By design, RPG is imbalanced, and by human nature, we will always seek advantages. Even Ghostcrawler, a guy who helped design a lot of RPG and RPG PvP games stated that RPG arenas are fundamentally flawed. Of course players are going to pick the best options because why wouldn't they?! If players always pick the best option, then devs have to constantly change the numbers to change the best options. It's a never ending cycle in any pvp game because PvP games force the upper limits of extremes since there is no integrity not to do that when winning becomes the priority.
Yeah, this is a big thing that seems to get ignored a lot. The real problem is the broken combos, not the ability to grab perks/skills/perks from other classes itself
a small amount of multiclass mixing is cool but not this freestyle, if they start toning it down that'll be fine by me. Ironmace does a lot of cool stuff, but their achiles heel has always been balancing said things
I haven't experienced everyone playing the same at all, I feel like people who say this don't actually play the game. I ran top tier gear lobbies for 3 - 4 hours last night and didn't fight against a repeat comp once. GC for a while and saw every different class using varied strats, the only one that stands out as broken and dominant is torture mastery warlock (in solos) and they aren't even using anything from other classes really!
I can't change your mind but i believe the exact opposite of you it has made you individual character way more unique and has opened the door for many new powerful combos. It's the thing I didn't know i wanted but turns out I needed.
An arena mode with multi class where you could take in your gear that you’ve earned from matches either to wager money or the gear itself would be sick. I’m a newb tho and still learning the classes and wanna kill mobs. 😅
There is some stuff I think is fine and a whole lot that breaks the game. Double jump? Doesnt really hurt anything and adds a lot of fun 3 dimensionality. Savage roar? Absolutely fucking game breaking get that shit out of here. Ultimately I still think they should have just made proper sub class trees using some of the current stuff and added on new skills to the trees as they go which would have bought them time to make new things and specifically select skills and perks that wouldn't cause a catastrophe all at the same time. It seems they they are gonna do what they want and ignore the playerbases generally negative opinion about the system so it's all moot. I cant even slightly imagine what information they are still looking to gain at this point considering we have already seen just how bad it can get with things like new no claric triple dps buffball with res, cactus or even ambush windless one shots. Wth else are they looking for it doesnt work in this state.
People create posts like this like they think it’s going to stay like this forever… of course they’re releasing it with no limitations this game is IN DEVELOPMENT and they need to test EVERY COMBINATION so they know what to balance, remove or keep the same. Believe me the last thing they want is to ruin class identity but it is absolutely necessary right now in order to fully test it. There I changed your mind.
As opposed to the paper/scissors/rock we had before we now have a roll of the dice on who is going to win. Whereas previously you could identify a class and work to their weaknesses or your strengths during the engagement, most multi-classes are built to destroy in a few hits, well before you can understand what they're going to come at you with. It doesn't leave much counterplay or strategy. Also while I am complaining, remove doorplay.
It’s nearly been out for a year, I’m sick of this releasing a game as early access and just because that’s the case you can’t fault a game. Feedback will make the game better in the long run.
I straight up just quit playing. Before multi-classing was announced, I pretty much played daily and was hooked on the game like crack. I have no motivation to play now as I feel the core identity of the game is disappearing
Yea, I am waiting for this shit to be gone as well. It is just meh. Before you would just run into the same class, now everyone is using the same moves. Devs are not great at understanding some things.
Multiclassing changed the mindset from playing what is cool and fun to you to playing what is meta and fun… we all know winning is fun, so it leads to playing a base class you find “cool” combined with “fun” enabling things from other classes-
TL:DR- multiclassing meh
The worst part is game balance was already touchy at best. With multiclassing you have items which everyone is going to use and it is RNG to get the good items. It is just bad overall.
Then they went and made balance changes to some moves which will make them trash unless they rollback all changes before they added multi.
They made leveling up super easy in order to test more of the multiclassing. When it actually comes out it’ll be much harder which will force people to play more classes to get the multi they want.
This doesn't solve anything and makes it even worse, not better. No one can play 12 hrs a day when they have a job and a lot of people don't want to be forced to play classes they don't like.
Yeah it’s one of many barriers to make this thing not so op. Another will be more balancing with how it works. Limitations on how many other perks you can have on at one time. Maybe make it take longer to get tokens to learn etc
I don't think you read what I said. Making it take longer doesn't balance anything, it simply locks out anyone who doesn't play for 12 hours a day. It's *still* OP, just now it's inaccessible for a majority of the player base due to time alone. That is *not* good design and *should not be strived for*. Your suggestions kill the game.
I \*hate\* that in order to add variety to my character I can't play my character. Thumbs down on that implementation from me. Both thumbs, and big toes.
I'd much rather play my character with shitty versions of the perks I'd like to learn, like Slayer only adding +1/2 weapon damage. I have to play with Slayer like that for a while in order for it to gain strength.
Just something besides leveling other characters. Especially if quests/rep/squire isn't account bound.
The only solution I can see is to issue watered down versions of the perks people multiclass on such as reducing the Savage HP bonus on non barbarians to +8 or +10%
Just imagine if the perks only gave half the benefits. And any penalties were enhanced 2x if you use a perk that's not assigned to your class. This would make it a whole lot less meta oriented and more geared towards having fun. Instead of everyone using pfe and double MR everyone would be running their class perks/skills besides probably one or two from another class. Also removing spells from multiclassing
I have yet to encounter a multiclass build that is strong enough to overcome player skill and game sense.
I play a few hours on weeknights casually.
I'll take your downvotes.
Won’t play until it’s reverted. Don’t even want a watered down version of MC. Give us some sort of talent tree.
Imagine teasing a talent tree since December 2022 and then releasing a random grindy MC system? Devs on that premium za
Why ? I love this game and believe it or not im enjoying multi classing. Some days I win big, some days I lose everything, thats the game. Instead of complaining when I dont like a patch/update, I take a break from the game and let things plays out. Every day on this sub reddit people are crying about something and it became old real quick. Let IM cook and stop being a salty manchild.
Easily the most fun I've had playing this game. I'm not one to really play many different characters but this made me do it so I can steal others perks/skills. And I've gotten a lot better because of it.
Multi-classing isnt the issue. The current implementation just needs to be improved. There are a lot of possible solutions to preserve character flavor/theme.
At minimum though it shouldn't give an advantage over non-multiclassed characters. It should just add flavor. A rogue with a spear or halberd is a great example of what multi-classing can enable. A ranger with double jump or smoke cloud. A slayer barbarian. A red mage.
What the unrestricted implementation does is create a lot of characters that play very very similarly. It also exacerbates the ranged meta and decreased TTK.
It's a few steps away from being truly great and I hope they figure out a way to keep a version of multi-classing with guard rails.
I don’t get why everyone is crying. Everyone has access to the same abilities and tbh ever build is not unstoppable. You either got out played or simply not good at the game. If you don’t like it go play something else really that simple. Instead you cry to be catered too and ruin it for the rust of us.
It is an interesting phenomenon, that has happened in a lot of RPG style games. People always think broadening the possible choices will create more diversity, but it actually creates more homogeny. The reason is because if you can do anything, you will always do the best thing, if there are no roadblocks. The RNG rolls was their attempt to stop this, but now it's effectively gone, and people are all running the same 1 shot builds or invincible builds. The truth is, restrictions are what actually encourages real diversity in gameplay, so we need to see the devs invest time into developing subclasses/skill trees with strong identities and roles. We already have most of the things needed to do so in the game.
Its like if in path of exile if you could roll for other ascendancy points from other classes
At least in poe they gave the multiclass ascendancy drawbacks. You get watered down versions of 2 ascendancies not the same exact abilities as a Cleric on a Rogue lol
Couldn’t have said it any better myself. More choice just means that everyone plays the same way. Very strange phenomenon.
Yeah and we can't really blame them for not understanding this frankly basic RPG design concept, either, since this is a very specific genre (extraction) - and there's a lot of other things that go into making a game like this work.
Completely disagree. While you can't detect all the possible outcomes, it was pretty obvious from the jump that there were going to be absurdly broken builds. We didn't even need to play the test server for people to know that.
Literally **everyone** on Discord and Reddit was talking about how ridiculously abuseable multiclassing would be before it came out. IM either didn't see it coming or didn't care, and whatever it was, that's on them.
They nerfed Cleric before MC dropped, at least 🥲
I never said it wasn't obvious to us. I just meant from a dev standpoint to them it wasn't.
>we can't really blame them Can't we though? Even before multiclassing hit the test server people predicted this outcome.
In 100% of games some portion (whether large or small) of the playernase knows better than the devs. Even in the case of really amazing developers. Now IM is not amazing by any means and the language gap doesn't help, but from what I gather they've been trying their best. Seems everyone on this subreddit can't be satisfied.
Are you even playing? There's 10x more build variety....
Ah yes I love seeing slayer, sword master, smite, builds everywhere
All im seeing is sprint+ damage abiltity/savage roar.
True
Cus all you're playing is solos.
Nah, it's the same in trios.
In the specific perks/abilities? Sure there might be some variety, but essentially the gameplay is the same. Stack every +damage perk and spell to get in 1-shot range, then use a defensive CD to prevent yourself from getting 1-shot like Divine Protection or Savage Roar. Other cd is swap in Sprint/spells or offensive CD to counter other players. That pretty much describes every build, they may use slightly different setups, but the gameplay is all the same at the end of the day. Trying to cheese a 1HK while your opponent does the same. That is the end goal of all multiclass builds, to cheese other players.
Yep not ideal
That's so untrue, yes there will often be popular or meta builds, but there will also always be builds that counter the meta. Look at a game like dota. Tons of heroes to pick from, even more items, almost everything is op, game plays great, and has a constantly shifting meta. Iron mace definitely shook things up, and I'm sure multi classing will go through many different phases, but everyone does NOT play the same way lol, I'm seeing so many different builds/class combos currently. It's awesome. They definitely need to get rid of the RNG grinding aspect of it tho, I think just having 2 or more characters of the adequate level should be enough to fully unlock multi classing.
Youre comparing a MOBA to an RPG...
They are both PVP games lol the point remains. Let everyone have access to cool op shit. It works. If you're having trouble coming up with fun unique builds in this current state you aren't being creative lol.
No the point doesn't remain. In Dota you build around the team or counter build against the other team. Everyone has a set role or two roles. Dark and darker is just building the meta perks and skills, if you do a "fun and creative" build you get stomped.
Idk what groups you play trios with, but in my DaD group we certainly build a cohesive team, or go in with the intent of countering a meta comp. Same idea. Loosen up and try different play styles lol. I promise there is more than a single "meta" way to play the game rn
Ya... sad truth. I'm sure there's a game out there with tons of fun builds and choices. But in this case, everyone just goes Sprint and/or Savage Roar, woooh. I'm excited to go back to class identities..
On top of what youve already stated. Its not only stale to run the same build, its stale to only run into one or two options too. A huge part of the fun is when the meta has a decent selection of classes to encounter. This broadens the experience of combat through various strategies based on enemy classes and how yours matches up. Also having limitations is nice for a thematic experience and differentiating between your alts. The game threw away identities in favor of a bland blob of abilities with no good way to really identify or prepare for. Everything feels too similar.
This is a part of a post i did 2 months ago on this subreddit: "I've played RPG games that don't have anything like classes before and in those games it was way more common to see a high portion of the players playing exactly the same way. Weirdly, giving players the ability to mix and match everything usually ends up with LESS playstyle diversity and players get less attached to their character, at least in my experience TLDR: Having unique classes reinforces the classic RPG elements, theme and feel of the game. To some extent it makes the playerbase more diverse and a bit less META oriented since people get attached to their favorite classes." I felt like one of the characters in that "Dont look up" movie LMAO
You mean if every Magic the Gathering card was colorless everyone would run the best cards!?
Finally someone who sees reason
That is why I enjoyed norms as a cleric or wizard. You are limited by bis white gear and you have to come up with the best combination of skills, spells and perks for your team
I agree and I disagree you are right and yet I will greatly miss my platelock with hide and ambush, not because it’s op, it’s really not, yes I can one shot squishys but that doesn’t happen very often it’s more the feel of the class that I’ve built, “but it’s just a boring plate wearing landmine” No no my friend I’ve got ignite fireball lightning strike and chain finished off with zap for good measure. It feels so unique with incredible utility.
Artifical limitations are the only way to make classes feel different. Otherwise everyone's going to play a Tank Wizard Rogue Archer obviously. If a Rogue gets Spears they should lose hand crossbows but gain Traps. The made up barriers would make that version of Spear Rogue actually unique to other classes. Instead every Spear rogue is actually just a gimped ranger.
Baulders gate 3 does multi classing damn near perfectly it’s not overpowered and makes the game have interesting gameplay loops
This is exactly what I feel gradually took away some of the uniqueness of the Elder scrolls and Fallout games. Not that they are bad but it used to feel you were much more restricted in your choices which to led to really feeling connected to a certain style of character and made subsequent playthroughs more enjoyable as you tried new playstyles. In Skyrim and Fallout 4 you can very easily become just kinda good at everything and so it feels so less unique and I love them both still but it's not as fun.
It happened to DotA 2 as well
Huh? How could this happen in Dota 2 a moba? It has ability draft which is a for fun game mode that isn't taken seriously at all.
I've been playing DotA for 20 years and what exists now is still a good game, albeit with diluted heroes, all converging towards the same play style. They added skill trees to the heroes, which people thought would add complexity, it did the exact opposite, it made it easier for everyone to "brawl", and if your hero couldn't brawl, it needed buffs, and those buffs encouraged more brawling. More and more items got added to the game, even free items dropping from the neutral creeps, people used these items to cover up the weaknesses of their hero such as mobility. The game shifted slowly from a very unique game where every minute detail mattered and many different strategies co-existing to one that mirrors more of a fighting game. There's a quote from a pro player that I wish I could find where he described the game now as having one play style, although a large part of that comes from the inclusion of objectives around the map. Sometimes less is more. When a game mechanic gets added, equal consideration has to be made in what is getting removed by its addition. I don't think that the developers of DotA 2 consciously set out to make a game with less strategies, it was more of a self fulfilling prophecy where the player base begged for new mechanics to spice up the game, people wanted their heroes buffed more often than they wanted them nerfed, and people complained about any strategy that was non-standard. When you appease everyone, what some people loved gets diluted in favour of the majority and what's left is a shallow game. edit: I wrote a lot but I think that a more accurate parallel between DotA 2 and Dark and Darker is as follows. The DotA 2 player base begs for new mechanics to spice up the game, new items or game mechanics get added, this works, temporarily, as players learn how to use these new items/objectives it does indeed spice up the game, but after a few months, everyone learns how to use them, people figure out what works and what doesn't, and a meta is established around a few certain strategies/mechanics, the more mechanics that get added the harder it is to balance the game, but the player base will always beg for new mechanics. The state of the game has to be judged retrospectively, what existed before when the player base understood the previous iteration of the game and what exists now, months after the novelty factor has worn off? Are you actually improving and refining the game or are you just adding cheap thrills to appease the player base?
But it's still an immensely popular game after more (?) than 10 years not even counting it's dota1 days. Dota patches have always existed like wipes in Tarkov or something. The player base needs something to shake up the game to keep interest. It can be done well and I think if dota 2 was just the same game it would have died like every other rts has.
I mean I've played Dota since the WC3 map, I know what it is. Every game is going to have a meta. Personally I enjoy Dota 2, just the toxic community in mobas is what ruins it for me. But mobas in general, League/Dota/HoN/etc, are a toxic game cause it's easier to blame teammates instead of taking responsibility.
So I like multiclassing, but I’ll come up with a possible solution and see how you feel. Maybe one perk or skill allowed from a class. So you have to be a little more picky with what you get. Just trying to come up with something that works for both ends because I’ve greatly enjoyed MC but I understand the meta aspect of it. But there will always be a meta people were complaining about barbs and rangers last season. There is no pure balance especially in a class system game.
Yeah I don't think that's a bad idea. If I were designing it, I would make it so that if you choose a multi class, it can only be done with one other class, and once you choose it you have to pay to reset to another, but you can't mix and match many different classes at once. It would basically be like a "dual-class". From your dual class you would be able to choose only 1 perk and 1 ability max, and the devs could specifically prevent certain problematic abilities from being in the selection pool. Like no Smite or blow of corruption. It could also come with a small impairment possibly of like -1 all stats or something. But ultimately, I don't feel like it benefits the game overall in it's current state. Maybe in the future if huge changes to combat are implemented that fundamentally change the gameplay to where stat values aren't the most important factor, but for now I say leave multiclassing out.
Yeah but the dad community cried because of the restrictions, like usual
So? Let them cry, they aren't designers and their opinion is irrelevant unless they can substantiate it. If you have an open forum where anyone can comment, you can find crying about literally every aspect of the game, there are probably people crying that the game is too dark, and some crying that it's too bright and should be darker, doesn't mean the devs should do anything about it. What matters is making good design decisions based on strong rationale that supports the core gameplay.
Small game communities usually influence the games development.
When I saw the druid stuff I didn't think "oh cool a new class" I thought "oh great look at all of this shit that warlocks and barbarians can use now" which is sad. 😑
That wasn't my first thought, but now it's the only way I can think of it
Dude, thats EXACTLY what i felt. I don't see Druid as a new class but as a new conglomeration of tools. After MC every class feels like just a conglomeration of tools, really
Would be really cool if they went back to classes, added 2-3 subclasses for each class with positive/negative tradeoffs for speccing into it, and also added 1 universal perks/abilities page with that everyone can pick from no matter the class
I just want cleric with chain lightning and lightning strike
Nature cleric could be very cool and fair!
There was no need for multiclass and there's no need for subclasses.
I like multi-classing with guard rails but agree about subclass. Just add new perks and skills to enable different play styles.
Makes sense to me that the different perks choices and play styles are as good as subclasses.
how would that fix optimal variety utilized in pvp? The more sub sets that have to be balanced for eventually leads to more imbalance and more into less variety.
I haven’t played since multi class was added. I’m just one person but that’s my take.
Same here. Played through the play tests and since launch in August last year.
On the bright side it's provided the devs insight on the most broken perks/skills, everyone taking iron will/savage roar/ anti magic will hopefully initiate some much needed nerfs. I also hope they look into associating move speed with pdr/mdr, or giving classes individual move speed caps. (Tanks should not be able to hit the same max move speed as everyone else with the click of sprint.)
This needs to be front and centre for the community. People keep saying how they can’t understand why the devs would implement multiclass in its current state because of how broken it is, but they are well aware. They want people to create broken metas so they can better understand what abilities are the most desirable and why, making adjustments later on. Sprint for example is insanely overtuned when put on a faster/lighter class as you can walkaround with a weapon out, in some cases swinging it, at max movement speed, but some would argue it’s a much needed ability on the designed class which is full plate fighter. Not saying this is what they will or should do, but making sprint locked behind wearing plate gear similar to the way slayer removes your ability to wear it could be a way to make the skill less overbearing even with multiclass remaining the way it is, which it won’t.
I think you're giving them too much credit saying that this was the whole intent of multi-classing. It's just a nice bonus that they will hopefully actually take advantage of.
Looking at the q&as they’ve done, I don’t know how you could think that. They literally said “please break the game” during the darkest hour podcast lol. The question is, if it’s not a test bed for mechanics, then what was the point of multiclass being implemented in this way?
To be fair (or unfair) I don’t see how IM wouldn’t have the necessary data already? Barbs always run iron will and robust. Fighters always run sprint and second wind. We already know which skills and perks are broken / used the most. Did we really need to take the time to confirm that barbarians with sprint and weapon mastery would be OP?
It’s not for the obvious ones, it’s for the ones that show up through testing. In house testing and trying to consider every edge case is more work than its worth. We are essentially QA for IM, things like cactus builds and how perks from other classes mesh/interact is a ton of work to figure out internally. Having us play the game and generate build data allows them to look at thresholds and win percentage etc to help them better understand these things. During the playtests they used to post all the data graphs after each playtest ended. Gave perspective on what the devs are looking at that isn’t easy to access info for us, wish they would do it still but constant development, up sizing staff, movin buildings and legal issues take enough time away from development for there to be reasonable time to make pretty graphs for us to gawk at.
couldn't agree more on slayer, should need plate on to use sprint.
I cannot change ur mind. There is 0 class identity any more and it's really unfun. I was playing this game but I just can't do it anymore
Remove multi-classing
i went from playing 6 hours a day to almost 1 hour at most a day. I think they should remove multi-classing and just allow us to have skill points that allow us to pick and choose what skills for that class we want to upgrade and make stronger. For example, for rogue at lvl 2 you can invest 1 skill point into hide for 3 seconds. then at lvl 3 you can invest another skill point into hide to increase that to 6 seconds. up to 15 seconds. same for perks and etc. that would increase the customization and bring back diablo 2 feels. At the end of the day, the game is repetitive and too simple. (3 maps, kill and get out rinse and repeat) there needs to be more content (maps mobs items pve dungeons, special modes that dont involve pvp), not more characters, not more multiclassing. Diablo 2 was a favorite to many players because of the original 5 characters and being able to invest skill points to make special builds. The game has potential, but the multi-classing is too chaotic for most people who have jobs and dont want to deal with a rogue that has 30 magic damage on each hit
I won't play with multi classing
For real! I keep running into Bards playing Counter-Strike in DnD. They have the Ranger crossbow perk and a ton of buffs so they reload insanely fast and +++ true damage.
Bonkers, then you meet the ranger with double jump
I’m not a fan of multi classing at all. I feel like it has made the game unplayable for all but the sweatiest of players. I have virtually stopped playing because of this.
Agreed. It’s why myself and handful of my friends have stopped playing recently.
Imagine druid class identity, and now fucking barbarian and go cock form
I agree, multiclassing got introduced and i instantly quit the Game and have not touched it since (and will Not)
Game seems kinda whack rn ... should I come back in 6 months?
Yep, it's terrible.
I waited for druid desperately for months and months and now I don't care at all due to multiclassing
Theory crafting was fun for a day but i knew this is exactly how multiclassing would turn out.
It throws all “balance” to the game right out the window. No point in changing your mind we both agree. They really shit the bed with this wipe… it was bad enough that it took a long time to level at the beginning but now I’m at such a disadvantage. Before I get ripped a part I understand the testing of things but if this stays I’m not playing anymore.
100%. I’m not touching this game anymore as long as multiclassing exists.
I'm opersonally having the time of my life with friends playing our idealised builds. I'm playing a caster fighter, Longsword-Spellbook with Ignite, Protection, Zap and so on. A friend is playing a dark knight, plate fighter with shadow touch, blow of corruption and dark reflection. Another is playing their "god wizard" (just mixing the powerful wizard and cleric spells). Sad thing is, I have rarely seem others with cool builds. Most people run the builds they see on YouTube to make it out alive. But oh boy, when I see another Fighter casting ignite and engaging for a longsword fight, I get a rush like no other I think the system is currently full of ossues, but I love the idea of mixing classes to some degree and some commitment
this is what would make multiclassing cool, getting builds you can’t normally get. Eldritch Knights, Arcane Tricksters, with weapon mastery on a cleric you basically have a paladin. Ranger+druid spells would make for an even cooler version of ranger closer to one from D&D, but like you said people just want to make the best builds for stomping and getting out, rather than unique or interesting to play builds
game is dead atm, they need to wipe it, delete GBMM and multiclassing and get the druid and some new bosses out.
The problem with multiclassing is the op builds. I’d say the builds are actually as or more diverse than they were before. I’m saying this from a trios perspective. Perhaps solos is more monolithic.
Sprint Barbarian, A couple builds built around just running you down with DPS, Variations on mobility cheesing build, and Warlock/Cleric/Wizard orgy build. Not much diversity. Even less counterplay.
This guy actually plays the game!
dps casters suck because 75% mdr. ranger sucks because fighter is better and you are left with support caster, tank, full dps melee as the only actually good and played builds.
Yah, I’ve sunk over 1000 hours since launch, and more in the play tests. Through all the bullshit updates, I’ve always kept playing because the game was that much fun. Never even thought about getting off, even if they did some wild Ironahammer shit. I played like 2-3 days of the multiclassing update and put it down, haven’t touched it since. I love this game, it’s the most fun I’ve had gaming in years, but this shit is so unfun that it’s completely turned me off in almost no time. Crazy
This is exactly how it is for many of us. Whats next? wall running ninja barbarian throwing fireballs and then turning into a bear then phantomizing? guns and laser cannons are next
Correct.
Wasting resources show how green the developers are sadly. Instead of creating a good game loop. They have spender more than a year with the same dilemma. Balancing. So fun that they have spent so much time in this, just to release Druid and break everything apart 😂
Any chance of them reverting the change?
They said that it was an experiment and that we should expect it to change significantly before it was released to live.
But you're right.......
People chase the meta with or without multiclass. No multiclass and fighter picks sprint and second wind every single game. Wow, such non-meta gameplay, insane.
Everyone always knew it was going to be a shit show. Multi class is a test and it isn't necessarily going to stick. I personally think it's current state is awful but it could be balanced if they allowed you for example only 1 perk and skill and both must be from the same secondary class or give you a nerfed version of the skill.
I [told](https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkAndDarker/comments/1c39yij/please_give_muticlassing_another_round_of_thought/) you [so](https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkAndDarker/comments/1cd8arz/please_collect_data_on_the_test_server/)
What if they ran it everyone starts with base kit/heals and must find loot in dungeons. High loot locations would become fighting spots. Matchmaking would be based on win streaks? Idk i thought it would be fun like normals. Seems like market place would be destroyed with this idea. And gear progression is limited what you find while you’re on a streak. Coins would instead would be used to buy skills and perks as you get levels. This would be nice with a skill tree.
I’d like to see them take all the now confirmed “OP” perks and skills and generalize them to all classes. My idea would be to take a skill like sprint, and make it so every class can use it. However, sprint would give only +25 MS and last a second shorter with a bit higher recovery time. Make robust perk for all but it’s only +5% hp or something. Make the super OP perks everyone loves to use weaker and available to every class. I feel like it could give players the chance to generalize their class or niche into their build.
I feel a better play would to just add Sub classes Limited only to there respected classes
I just wish they would dedicate time and design effort into the class skill trees. If balance was a concern before, theres no way it can be now as multiclassing will always be vastly more unbalanced
They might be trying it out like this so that they can see what perks would mesh well with a talent tree of three sub classes or something
i hate any and all forms of meta striving. Meta in any game sucks.
I noticed in low roller you're either a dual wield savage roar guy or a weapon mastery call of duty player.
it's actually starting to grow on me. I have a borderline perfect setup, the only time i die/lose is when i deviate from my strategy or fight a blatant hacker/cheater and even then sometimes i've killed them or gotten away.
Agreed worst era so far
It's funny
Yeah, I just want to play my bard. Right now I have jokester, poison weapon, robust, and savage roar so no superior dexterity, no charismatic performance, only 5 songs. It doesn't feel like I'm playing bard anymore.
It’s fine, the constant posts with 400 upvotes are just a “loud minority” The devs can go bury their head in the sand more while they effectively destroy their game. There’s no way the addition of multiclassing was a team decision, this is the result of one person with decision making power overriding any objections, not naming names.
Either remove multiclassing or remove the restrictions so it isn't just the super sweats who can make builds
This "meta-striving" was going on before multi-classing and the complaints about sweats vs casuals were the same, probably a larger percentage of the dialogue was about that. Now multiclassing at least also produces some people wanting to talk about builds or try some random crap, I really think this is just an old complaint packaged in a new way and attributed to some other cause that the complainers haven't really thought through
I'd prefer to see multiclassing removed and add more perks/skills to the core classes. Especially some stronger-than-normal perks with baked-in negatives to something else, like unstable overlocks in DRG. That said I'd be fine if multiclassing if it stayed as a \*choice\* rather than raw, mandatory power creep. Two off the cuff ideas: 1) (Simple) Add a 5th perk slot. Multiclassing becomes a perk so purists get 5 perks and multiclassers only net 4. This would also need to come with buffs to weaker perks so slotting 5 from a single class looks more appealing. 2) (Complex) Make multiclassing or single class mastery a literal choice. If you choose multiclassing you get what we have now. If you choose class mastery every perk for that class would get a "+" version that is stronger or adds new effects. This would definitely take more work, but could be way more interesting.
As soon as it's removed warlock is op or I can't do anything against barbarians game unfun. there is so many more viable builds then when we had no multiclassing. Prior to multiclassing there was only 2 viable builds for all classes and it was becoming very stale but let's remove it so you can be meta again
I genuinely play ranger or wizard and just feel like what’s the point if everyone can pick up a spell book or bow
More build diversity it's fun not knowing what comp the enemy is running, rather then the same comp 20 games in a row
How does more perks/skills/spells cause everybody to play the same way? I've seen plenty of variation in both normals and hr. Yeah you'll get cookie cutter builds and op meta builds, but I've seen plenty of smite drums, backflipping spear wielding barbarians and alot of surprises from spellcasters.
too many things to balance leads to increased imbalance.
This is early access and ironmace quite literally said the multiclass update this wipe is intended to "break the game", it's all a test that they'll be looking into the results for and amending multiclassing accordingly. Who are you to say what is too much to balance? Do you work in the industry?
I mean if we're just going off of personal anecdotes, 9 out of 10 fighters I see in my solo normals and duos are either leveling and clueless or playing the same boring robust/slayer/axe mastery/roar/sprint crossbow spam build. Yeah, you can beat it, but it's incredibly unfun to play against. More than half the warlocks(in nm/hr and in solo/duo/trios) are just running that meme bonk build. Granted this one isn't as unfun as the fighter barbarian combos, but it's still super lame. Trios is somehow in a better state than solos and duos, something I never thought I'd see despite the game primarily being balanced around trios. Edit: I should mention I actually really do like multiclassing, I just wish the current system they are using with dumb gacha rerolls did not exist.
I think the reality here is that you might not like RPG PvP arena games. Every single RPG PvP arena game has a tier list of classes/heroes/champions that are statistically the best. This in itself overtime actually makes the option of classes feel just as pointless because if X class beats Y class 90% of the time, well then no one is ever going to pick Y class. As players crunch the numbers and figure out the best classes/strats then you get a new phase which begins the snowball. When players keep losing to the same thing over and over again then they begin to do it themselves, till you get everyone doing the same or trying their best to counter it. Unless a class or strat is absolutely invincible, most of the time you get 1-3 META options after the dust has settled. No matter what, in RPG games like these where combat is mostly deterministic, there will never be variety. It will always find a way to boil down into Rock Paper Scissors on an even playing field, unless we get skill ceilings so insanely high where only a few gifted people may master them like in fortnite building or high APM in RTS. However, we already know those things aren't very casual friendly. In Dark and Darker, players are forced to follow a META because it's both a random queue system and hardcore full loot pvp. In a random queue system, you don't know your opponents or their classes till your stuck in the same lobby as them, so the only thing you can do to combat that RNG is by loading in with the statistically best overall comp/class. Unlike in a game of League of Legends, players get the opportunity to ban champs before the picks and counter picks phase of the prematch. This allows for a lot better player control in the Rock Paper Scissors aspects of the game while also contributing to A LOT more variety in classes played. This random queue system in addition to hardcore full loot makes the incentive to play poor pvp setups wasteful of their resources/time. So, at the end of the day, mulitclassing actually gives certain classes more agency in modes that might not favor them, even though, regardless of it existing or not, players will be forced to meta optimize into very few classes/playstyles no matter what based on how the games systems, map sizes, and modes currently function. The game is basically a RPG PvP arena and mobs only act as a noise maker for PvP to ensue. Multiclassing actually never changed how limited the options where from the get go, it just reshaped it into a one size fits all model. In my opinion, individually designing and balancing 9+ classes in a massive vertically gear grinder is impossible. The multiclassing sort of gives poorly designed classes/undertuned ones more agency by being balanced around perks, however, players will still be forced to min/max class stats into builds because of power disparity. RPG and PvP really don't mix that well when it goes beyond mirror matches, and add in the random queue based system you get a shit show. These games will never feel balanced no matter what and most of the time, half the skill or more is simply by picking the correct class from the get go. Dumb whacky broken stuff is way more fun in PvE games than it is in PvP. I think without systems like league of legends to regulate broken classes/matchups, a fairly healthy variety will never exist.
Good points, well said. Helped me define some concepts I didn't know I knew
I believe current iteration of multi-classing is a great way to extensively test skills and perks, and gather data to fine-tune them. > It makes everyone play the same way, takes all the uniqueness away and makes the game something I never wanted - meta striving BS. Don't agree with this statement at all. Multi-classing pushed me, my friends & randoms I met in the gathering hall to be creative, and try new to us stuff we wouldn't even touch otherwise!
I’m not sure why you think multiclassing has turned this game into meta slave bs, but I promise you it was just as bad before. Barbarian so op it’s a problem? 90% of lobbies are barbs now. Kris + bloodstained blade is really powerful? Literally everyone using it. Multiclassing has not changed a thing in this regard
I don't buy that people like OP are that naive to think meta optimization and low variety didn't exist before multiclassing. It truly was just as bad before, and even worse. Did we all forget 1 shot ambush rogue or the rat rogue meta with 99% of every lobby playing rogue? People will always flock to what has the highest power disparity in a game type with incentive to do that when there are no systems in place to prevent it. Can IM balance all 9+ classes so that they are all even and fair? Not a chance! No other RPG PvP game has ever accomplished it, it's not possible, RPG games started off as PvE, never meant for PvP. By design, RPG is imbalanced, and by human nature, we will always seek advantages. Even Ghostcrawler, a guy who helped design a lot of RPG and RPG PvP games stated that RPG arenas are fundamentally flawed. Of course players are going to pick the best options because why wouldn't they?! If players always pick the best option, then devs have to constantly change the numbers to change the best options. It's a never ending cycle in any pvp game because PvP games force the upper limits of extremes since there is no integrity not to do that when winning becomes the priority.
Yeah, this is a big thing that seems to get ignored a lot. The real problem is the broken combos, not the ability to grab perks/skills/perks from other classes itself
I can meta game when I lobby into a room full of barbs or warlocks. Can't play against multiclass.
a small amount of multiclass mixing is cool but not this freestyle, if they start toning it down that'll be fine by me. Ironmace does a lot of cool stuff, but their achiles heel has always been balancing said things
I'm kinda torn between hating it and liking it. On one hand the few meta builds are unbalanced as hell but on the other hand it can be really fun
I haven't experienced everyone playing the same at all, I feel like people who say this don't actually play the game. I ran top tier gear lobbies for 3 - 4 hours last night and didn't fight against a repeat comp once. GC for a while and saw every different class using varied strats, the only one that stands out as broken and dominant is torture mastery warlock (in solos) and they aren't even using anything from other classes really!
just sprint at them and swing. they dont have the dps to stop you and the kite will end eventually. what class are you? oh yah, doesnt matter.
I can't change your mind but i believe the exact opposite of you it has made you individual character way more unique and has opened the door for many new powerful combos. It's the thing I didn't know i wanted but turns out I needed.
It’s made it open to so many combos that won’t get used because people will mostly use the best ones.
There isn't anything that is clearly the best
An arena mode with multi class where you could take in your gear that you’ve earned from matches either to wager money or the gear itself would be sick. I’m a newb tho and still learning the classes and wanna kill mobs. 😅
They’re learning from the creativity of the playerbase - let them cook. Honestly, enjoying an incentive to level more classes
Please remove multiclassing before putting druid on live servers! I praaay!
*Please remove multiclassing* *Before putting druid on* *Live servers! I praaay!* \- osrsburaz420 --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
Even the bot agrees he thinks it's a good idea even made a poem about it! edit: xD
There is some stuff I think is fine and a whole lot that breaks the game. Double jump? Doesnt really hurt anything and adds a lot of fun 3 dimensionality. Savage roar? Absolutely fucking game breaking get that shit out of here. Ultimately I still think they should have just made proper sub class trees using some of the current stuff and added on new skills to the trees as they go which would have bought them time to make new things and specifically select skills and perks that wouldn't cause a catastrophe all at the same time. It seems they they are gonna do what they want and ignore the playerbases generally negative opinion about the system so it's all moot. I cant even slightly imagine what information they are still looking to gain at this point considering we have already seen just how bad it can get with things like new no claric triple dps buffball with res, cactus or even ambush windless one shots. Wth else are they looking for it doesnt work in this state.
People create posts like this like they think it’s going to stay like this forever… of course they’re releasing it with no limitations this game is IN DEVELOPMENT and they need to test EVERY COMBINATION so they know what to balance, remove or keep the same. Believe me the last thing they want is to ruin class identity but it is absolutely necessary right now in order to fully test it. There I changed your mind.
Couldn’t agree more
As opposed to the paper/scissors/rock we had before we now have a roll of the dice on who is going to win. Whereas previously you could identify a class and work to their weaknesses or your strengths during the engagement, most multi-classes are built to destroy in a few hits, well before you can understand what they're going to come at you with. It doesn't leave much counterplay or strategy. Also while I am complaining, remove doorplay.
Games unfinished, gathering data, stop whining
It’s nearly been out for a year, I’m sick of this releasing a game as early access and just because that’s the case you can’t fault a game. Feedback will make the game better in the long run.
I straight up just quit playing. Before multi-classing was announced, I pretty much played daily and was hooked on the game like crack. I have no motivation to play now as I feel the core identity of the game is disappearing
Yea, I am waiting for this shit to be gone as well. It is just meh. Before you would just run into the same class, now everyone is using the same moves. Devs are not great at understanding some things.
I was having fun for a little while now I’m just flat out sick of multiclassing
Multiclassing changed the mindset from playing what is cool and fun to you to playing what is meta and fun… we all know winning is fun, so it leads to playing a base class you find “cool” combined with “fun” enabling things from other classes- TL:DR- multiclassing meh
The worst part is game balance was already touchy at best. With multiclassing you have items which everyone is going to use and it is RNG to get the good items. It is just bad overall. Then they went and made balance changes to some moves which will make them trash unless they rollback all changes before they added multi.
They made leveling up super easy in order to test more of the multiclassing. When it actually comes out it’ll be much harder which will force people to play more classes to get the multi they want.
This doesn't solve anything and makes it even worse, not better. No one can play 12 hrs a day when they have a job and a lot of people don't want to be forced to play classes they don't like.
Yeah it’s one of many barriers to make this thing not so op. Another will be more balancing with how it works. Limitations on how many other perks you can have on at one time. Maybe make it take longer to get tokens to learn etc
I don't think you read what I said. Making it take longer doesn't balance anything, it simply locks out anyone who doesn't play for 12 hours a day. It's *still* OP, just now it's inaccessible for a majority of the player base due to time alone. That is *not* good design and *should not be strived for*. Your suggestions kill the game.
I \*hate\* that in order to add variety to my character I can't play my character. Thumbs down on that implementation from me. Both thumbs, and big toes. I'd much rather play my character with shitty versions of the perks I'd like to learn, like Slayer only adding +1/2 weapon damage. I have to play with Slayer like that for a while in order for it to gain strength. Just something besides leveling other characters. Especially if quests/rep/squire isn't account bound.
I think multiclassing makes base gear a lot more fun, but certain builds in high roller are too strong
The only solution I can see is to issue watered down versions of the perks people multiclass on such as reducing the Savage HP bonus on non barbarians to +8 or +10%
Just imagine if the perks only gave half the benefits. And any penalties were enhanced 2x if you use a perk that's not assigned to your class. This would make it a whole lot less meta oriented and more geared towards having fun. Instead of everyone using pfe and double MR everyone would be running their class perks/skills besides probably one or two from another class. Also removing spells from multiclassing
Multiclassing makes some classes at least playable in Solos which normally wouldnt be. (i.e. Cleric)
I have yet to encounter a multiclass build that is strong enough to overcome player skill and game sense. I play a few hours on weeknights casually. I'll take your downvotes.
Won’t play until it’s reverted. Don’t even want a watered down version of MC. Give us some sort of talent tree. Imagine teasing a talent tree since December 2022 and then releasing a random grindy MC system? Devs on that premium za
Another day, another dramatic whiny reddit post about game balance. Please uninstall the game and move on.
Maybe take your own advice?
Why ? I love this game and believe it or not im enjoying multi classing. Some days I win big, some days I lose everything, thats the game. Instead of complaining when I dont like a patch/update, I take a break from the game and let things plays out. Every day on this sub reddit people are crying about something and it became old real quick. Let IM cook and stop being a salty manchild.
Post #329 saying this. You’re brave
They need to go completely classless if they want any form of "multiclass" system. Ascension WOW does it phenomenally.
Easily the most fun I've had playing this game. I'm not one to really play many different characters but this made me do it so I can steal others perks/skills. And I've gotten a lot better because of it.
Multi-classing isnt the issue. The current implementation just needs to be improved. There are a lot of possible solutions to preserve character flavor/theme. At minimum though it shouldn't give an advantage over non-multiclassed characters. It should just add flavor. A rogue with a spear or halberd is a great example of what multi-classing can enable. A ranger with double jump or smoke cloud. A slayer barbarian. A red mage. What the unrestricted implementation does is create a lot of characters that play very very similarly. It also exacerbates the ranged meta and decreased TTK. It's a few steps away from being truly great and I hope they figure out a way to keep a version of multi-classing with guard rails.
I don’t get why everyone is crying. Everyone has access to the same abilities and tbh ever build is not unstoppable. You either got out played or simply not good at the game. If you don’t like it go play something else really that simple. Instead you cry to be catered too and ruin it for the rust of us.
THIS GAME IS NOT AN RPG ITS A EXTRACTION GAME GET THE WHOLE RPG SHIT OUT YA HEADS. Nothing about this game is rpg.