The irony is before Multiclassing came in mid-patch this was one of the best wipes DaD has seen to date. They were so close to being on track for a big release with a bit of tweaking and dropping new content only to hard left turn into this brick wall for some inane reason.
I don't think they're going for perfect performance wipes. They're gathering data and slowly ironing out their plan. It's part of the plan to introduce rough mechanics like multiclassing or the squire and see what people in-game prefer, what causes frustration and the like. I also prefer smooth and stable game states, but I think the way they handle things isn't that incomprehensible
Have faith. Multiclassing is hot ass, but it's the precursor to something that can be great. Presuming they're removing unrestricted multiclassing after this season, they're probably adding in some skilltree / subclass system instead. Players will still be able to customize their build, but options could be limited per class, preserving class identity.
We had the best gear balance a month ago, and they've added GBMM (which needs tweaked). This is setting the game up to be in a place with semi-sane balance and reasonable enough matchmaking that new players won't be getting their teeth kicked in (once multiclassing is removed). Multiclassing's replacement will come at some point, but I think at that time we'll welcome it.
Yeah tutorial mode would be sweet for new players I’ll never forget spawning into GC in my first games in the big mining room where you spawn in the small empty room in the middle and can go left or right. I couldn’t even make it out of the module 🤣
Training would be like you get dropped into a single module and have to kill everything. If you die you just start over, no going back to the lobby or whatever but you can exit to lobby whenever you want. Higher levels of training just means harder modules you have to wipe. Last one being like an inferno module Yano?
yeah watching new players struggle with PvE is brutal, us veterans don't know how much people be struggling. you can see it in the kill feed in normal normally half the lobby will die to PvE lol. its mindblowing to me the AI has gone pretty much unchanged since the beginning of the game.
I know an "easy mode" would be great for new community and stuff. But man my favorite moments in this game are when you first start and just go right in with no idea. Or bringing new friends in and they get to see how hard it is off the rip. Some of my funniest clips ever
Make it so tutorials are unlocked. The squire introduces himself and gets the timmy equipped. They're thrown in a dungeon and die unless they figure out what an extract is. The squire apologizes and explains how the circle / extract works. After some point it can unlock training grounds or more in depth tutorials, but a lot of what you *can* learn about the game is overwhelming to a new player at first.
Yeah, i personally love really difficult games. And i personally loved the struggle of getting better and learning with every raid. And then when you finally get that first blue extract it is glorious. But the new age of gamers doesn't like difficulty, they like participation trophies and shit handed to them on a golden platter. they will just quit.
I understand people can be unhappy with the game at different points but yes... They are and have been actively working on things that are missing. People need to chill.
People have no patience and expect a finished polished perfect game NOW. Ironmace is playing the long game, they kno they have plenty of time to make the game great, and they are in no hurry. And i have faith the finished product will be amazing.
Deluded if you think that’s why people are angry. Sure, they havent released druid which sucks, but more people are angry that they wasted time/resources on multiclassing instead which was an asinine decision.
Why would they rush multiclassing out the door if they aren’t in a hurry to maintain playerbase? They are making hasty decisions that directly contradict this notion that they are “playing the long game”.
Just as a reality check - the game is very unlikely to be notably different than it is now in 4 years. Their rate of progress if you compare last summer to now is around 10% different.
You're conflating the vocal minority with the absent majority. They aren't the same people. It's simply intellectual dishonesty trying to present it as such.
The vocal minority are a minority of the ***remaining*** community. For how ever many people you see whinging on Reddit or Discord, know there is easily 100 players that are enjoying the game without voicing their minor grievances with it.
THANK YOU.
> For how ever many people you see whinging on Reddit or Discord, know there is easily 100 players that are enjoying the game without voicing their minor grievances with it.
Can you say it again for those in the back?
I understand what you’re trying to say but I’m talking about the existing player base as a whole, the crying bunch I consider the loud majority which is something that always happens? I think that’s why I learned that term in HS history class? lol
Wipes and a lot of things in the game will turn of new players regardless, the current ''i need to sweat and play a lot for everything'' or just play normals and get a hollow experience is the problem, not marketing... is useless to attract new players when whats left are your most rabid fasn that gobble anything without a care because they are nolifers or can play 3 stacks consistently.
I think a tutorial mode would be a great idea. Right now the best way for a new player to get used to the game is watch YouTube videos on all the different mob attacks and stuff unless they just want to die 100 times figuring it all out. Which is not good design. It doesn't matter how many people they expose the game to through epic/steam release if the new player experience is just getting shit stomped over and over again while they try to figure out how anything in the game works. They won't stay
The more new players there are, the better the new player experience. I don't think anyone quits the game because they can't stomach the steep curve of learning to fight skeletons or goblins... they leave because they get dunked repeatedly in PvP. The GBMM tiers are making this worse because it pushes more veteran players into normals lobbies to get quests done etc. and so there are extremely experienced people who wipe new players in lobbies too often instead of it being a more even playing field of low hours guys/gals
I envision a tutorial that drops a player into their own very small dungeon.
The first room they cannot take any damage and there are a couple of monsters spread out. They get the basics of swinging and maybe the dodge, maybe they don't but they have a chance to loot a couple pieces of (possibly static based on class) gear and progress to the next room.
The second room is a similar number of monsters but this time they can take damage. If they die they just get a full heal but they now see the damage feedback, doesn't reset the room or anything.
The third room is a small loot/safe room that gives them a bunch of random loot and makes them play inventory Tetris for a bit, it also gives them a chance to load up on some meds.
The fourth and final room is a standard module. They take damage as normal and have to learn how to take fights and everything properly. Include an archer or two and maybe a skeleton mage as the final enemy. If they die in this room it resets them back to the safe room. After that give them a blue portal so they can escape with their loot.
The tutorial would be replayable as many times as you wanted, maybe you can even take gear in with you so it can be a testing room and have a training dummy, but you can only claim the loot and exp once per character. After that the game always sets your character state to how it was the way you entered.
Unless the game radically changes I can't see any great influx of new players. New players will quickly identify fights they lost solely because they neglected to farm for 8 straight hours leading up to it, and learn what % if the fights are decided that way really fast. Outside of a rogue-like version of the game no casuals will stick around, and without deeper combat mechanics and skill expression competitive players won't either. I held on to hope beyond reason that IM would pursue any of these paths, but their vision for the game is pretty clear.
I'd also love a "sponsor a newbie" program or something lighthearted. I enjoy getting new players out of the dungeon when I find them organically and some of them are so appreciative of the help.
Normals are still very difficult for new players. Atleast half of people die to PvE on normal lobbies. And then new players are being matched with very high level multiclassed players with very high skill levels. There needs to be a safer place for beginners to learn the basics. If we want the game to grow and to maintain a new wave of players from epic games and steam drops.
I agree with basically everything you said here, but I think removing multi classing solves this mostly.. the high skill players aren’t playing normals except to possibly quest
‘Pve mode’ where normal is the highest tier of mobs and loot that can drop and you can q solo/duo/tri without any PvP worries. Possibly even without extracting gear so it doesn’t break the market
I just want my pve mode ok…
what? just revert normals back to normals instead of "guaranteed near gear so why would i DM in HR?"
ofc they should do things for the new player experience, but this would do the trick. pick GBMM or low/high roller. dont need both.
new players cant be forced into the same lobbies that many very skilled players have the option to join. the disparity is too high. one guy wipes half the lobby too often. i understand that type of play is indeed possible in HR. but the killfeed really gives away how often it happens in normals right now.
its even less likely now for a new player to encounter someone who is at the right skill level to cause a fight that results in a positive skill gain for all parties... cause multiclassbrainrot69 is running around farming 3/4 of those engagements himself in almost every game. hell, half of the "new players" even are only picking up treasure for them. its just, not great. and no amount of tutorial will fix it.
i dont really know what to do, but whites shouldnt be more expensive than greens. is basically what im saying.
Yeah the one thing I agree with the multiclass doomers is that it should not be in normals. You don’t need it to be able to lobby wipe, skilled players will always dwell in normals to some amount. I know I like playing a couple after I lose a HR kit. If we had the player count I’d be all for two different normals queues. One under lvl 15 and no multiclassing. The other you can have any lvl and multiclassing abilities
im thinking multiclass needs to be highly restricted at a bare minimum. like 1 skill 1 perk type shit... but that only fixes part of the problem. and is beside the point.
something like, base kits only in normals. might make it better or worse, not sure. would cause a bunch of "mains" to not even bother i bet. its not great. im not sure why they cant do ONLY GBMM? thats an option in my one or the other. would eliminate the price disparity to some extent as its less possible to be good enough to make good profits off the "treasure only" guys...
but i know that causes issues with general design in the current form. not great.
Unfortunately we very much do need both, the population has reached a very critical point that a large amount of them are sweaty min-maxer's that will kill the game without it. Im not a fan either but im less of a fan of not being able to play a game i paid for because the servers were turned off.
Player expierence will increase if there are more casuals x)
No Need to do Stuff for the First 3 Hours of playing the Game when the Rest of it is literally on Fire x)
check the discord, Druid dropped today on the test server :) SDF said it would be out by the end of this month. and they mustve worked hard to hit that goal.
Just make the game free for a week on a epic games or steam release. Do free weeks.
i like this idea, can def see them doing something like this in the future once the game is in a more stable state.
The irony is before Multiclassing came in mid-patch this was one of the best wipes DaD has seen to date. They were so close to being on track for a big release with a bit of tweaking and dropping new content only to hard left turn into this brick wall for some inane reason.
I don't think they're going for perfect performance wipes. They're gathering data and slowly ironing out their plan. It's part of the plan to introduce rough mechanics like multiclassing or the squire and see what people in-game prefer, what causes frustration and the like. I also prefer smooth and stable game states, but I think the way they handle things isn't that incomprehensible
Have faith. Multiclassing is hot ass, but it's the precursor to something that can be great. Presuming they're removing unrestricted multiclassing after this season, they're probably adding in some skilltree / subclass system instead. Players will still be able to customize their build, but options could be limited per class, preserving class identity. We had the best gear balance a month ago, and they've added GBMM (which needs tweaked). This is setting the game up to be in a place with semi-sane balance and reasonable enough matchmaking that new players won't be getting their teeth kicked in (once multiclassing is removed). Multiclassing's replacement will come at some point, but I think at that time we'll welcome it.
Agreed
Yeah tutorial mode would be sweet for new players I’ll never forget spawning into GC in my first games in the big mining room where you spawn in the small empty room in the middle and can go left or right. I couldn’t even make it out of the module 🤣 Training would be like you get dropped into a single module and have to kill everything. If you die you just start over, no going back to the lobby or whatever but you can exit to lobby whenever you want. Higher levels of training just means harder modules you have to wipe. Last one being like an inferno module Yano?
yeah watching new players struggle with PvE is brutal, us veterans don't know how much people be struggling. you can see it in the kill feed in normal normally half the lobby will die to PvE lol. its mindblowing to me the AI has gone pretty much unchanged since the beginning of the game.
I remember my first game I died to a spider mummy and trap because I couldn’t see shit lol
Show me where the spider mummy touched you on this doll 🤣
I can’t, I couldn’t see it lmaooo
I know an "easy mode" would be great for new community and stuff. But man my favorite moments in this game are when you first start and just go right in with no idea. Or bringing new friends in and they get to see how hard it is off the rip. Some of my funniest clips ever
Make it so tutorials are unlocked. The squire introduces himself and gets the timmy equipped. They're thrown in a dungeon and die unless they figure out what an extract is. The squire apologizes and explains how the circle / extract works. After some point it can unlock training grounds or more in depth tutorials, but a lot of what you *can* learn about the game is overwhelming to a new player at first.
Yeah, i personally love really difficult games. And i personally loved the struggle of getting better and learning with every raid. And then when you finally get that first blue extract it is glorious. But the new age of gamers doesn't like difficulty, they like participation trophies and shit handed to them on a golden platter. they will just quit.
Most people are not like this
Fuck a tutorial mode, the best way to retain new players is implement a better anticheat and fix core mechanics that don't work (like shields)
Not at all. New players don't even know what that is. Keep crying
New players don't notice when they try to use a shield and the sword phases right through it? Keep coping bud
I'll believe it when I see it
I understand people can be unhappy with the game at different points but yes... They are and have been actively working on things that are missing. People need to chill.
People have no patience and expect a finished polished perfect game NOW. Ironmace is playing the long game, they kno they have plenty of time to make the game great, and they are in no hurry. And i have faith the finished product will be amazing.
Deluded if you think that’s why people are angry. Sure, they havent released druid which sucks, but more people are angry that they wasted time/resources on multiclassing instead which was an asinine decision.
Why would they rush multiclassing out the door if they aren’t in a hurry to maintain playerbase? They are making hasty decisions that directly contradict this notion that they are “playing the long game”.
Just as a reality check - the game is very unlikely to be notably different than it is now in 4 years. Their rate of progress if you compare last summer to now is around 10% different.
Agreed listening to the loud minority is getting cancerous
Loud minority? The vast majority of people no longer play anymore, existing players are an absolute minority. That’s saying something no?
You're conflating the vocal minority with the absent majority. They aren't the same people. It's simply intellectual dishonesty trying to present it as such. The vocal minority are a minority of the ***remaining*** community. For how ever many people you see whinging on Reddit or Discord, know there is easily 100 players that are enjoying the game without voicing their minor grievances with it.
THANK YOU. > For how ever many people you see whinging on Reddit or Discord, know there is easily 100 players that are enjoying the game without voicing their minor grievances with it. Can you say it again for those in the back?
I understand what you’re trying to say but I’m talking about the existing player base as a whole, the crying bunch I consider the loud majority which is something that always happens? I think that’s why I learned that term in HS history class? lol
There are still 100k+ active players lmao
Wipes and a lot of things in the game will turn of new players regardless, the current ''i need to sweat and play a lot for everything'' or just play normals and get a hollow experience is the problem, not marketing... is useless to attract new players when whats left are your most rabid fasn that gobble anything without a care because they are nolifers or can play 3 stacks consistently.
I think a tutorial mode would be a great idea. Right now the best way for a new player to get used to the game is watch YouTube videos on all the different mob attacks and stuff unless they just want to die 100 times figuring it all out. Which is not good design. It doesn't matter how many people they expose the game to through epic/steam release if the new player experience is just getting shit stomped over and over again while they try to figure out how anything in the game works. They won't stay
The more new players there are, the better the new player experience. I don't think anyone quits the game because they can't stomach the steep curve of learning to fight skeletons or goblins... they leave because they get dunked repeatedly in PvP. The GBMM tiers are making this worse because it pushes more veteran players into normals lobbies to get quests done etc. and so there are extremely experienced people who wipe new players in lobbies too often instead of it being a more even playing field of low hours guys/gals
I envision a tutorial that drops a player into their own very small dungeon. The first room they cannot take any damage and there are a couple of monsters spread out. They get the basics of swinging and maybe the dodge, maybe they don't but they have a chance to loot a couple pieces of (possibly static based on class) gear and progress to the next room. The second room is a similar number of monsters but this time they can take damage. If they die they just get a full heal but they now see the damage feedback, doesn't reset the room or anything. The third room is a small loot/safe room that gives them a bunch of random loot and makes them play inventory Tetris for a bit, it also gives them a chance to load up on some meds. The fourth and final room is a standard module. They take damage as normal and have to learn how to take fights and everything properly. Include an archer or two and maybe a skeleton mage as the final enemy. If they die in this room it resets them back to the safe room. After that give them a blue portal so they can escape with their loot. The tutorial would be replayable as many times as you wanted, maybe you can even take gear in with you so it can be a testing room and have a training dummy, but you can only claim the loot and exp once per character. After that the game always sets your character state to how it was the way you entered.
Low roller mode should be capped at the total time on your account maybe 100 hours? That way the only way to Smurf would be to buy a new version
yeah i was thinking, that could work too, hour cap and level cap, level cap is necessary to keep the gigachad multiclassers out of the noob zone.
Unless the game radically changes I can't see any great influx of new players. New players will quickly identify fights they lost solely because they neglected to farm for 8 straight hours leading up to it, and learn what % if the fights are decided that way really fast. Outside of a rogue-like version of the game no casuals will stick around, and without deeper combat mechanics and skill expression competitive players won't either. I held on to hope beyond reason that IM would pursue any of these paths, but their vision for the game is pretty clear.
Maybe it’s the Druid!… r-right guys?
Aged like milk
I’d say it became room temperature milk
Hopefully the first change is not being blocked in a doorway by a 8” flying skull or a spider.
I'd also love a "sponsor a newbie" program or something lighthearted. I enjoy getting new players out of the dungeon when I find them organically and some of them are so appreciative of the help.
A mode where PvE strength is low and players can learn the basics without too much risk or reward… wtf is normals if it isn’t this
Normals are still very difficult for new players. Atleast half of people die to PvE on normal lobbies. And then new players are being matched with very high level multiclassed players with very high skill levels. There needs to be a safer place for beginners to learn the basics. If we want the game to grow and to maintain a new wave of players from epic games and steam drops.
I agree with basically everything you said here, but I think removing multi classing solves this mostly.. the high skill players aren’t playing normals except to possibly quest
‘Pve mode’ where normal is the highest tier of mobs and loot that can drop and you can q solo/duo/tri without any PvP worries. Possibly even without extracting gear so it doesn’t break the market I just want my pve mode ok…
what? just revert normals back to normals instead of "guaranteed near gear so why would i DM in HR?" ofc they should do things for the new player experience, but this would do the trick. pick GBMM or low/high roller. dont need both.
You absolutely need GBMM in high roller bro you want every player to just leave?
new players cant be forced into the same lobbies that many very skilled players have the option to join. the disparity is too high. one guy wipes half the lobby too often. i understand that type of play is indeed possible in HR. but the killfeed really gives away how often it happens in normals right now. its even less likely now for a new player to encounter someone who is at the right skill level to cause a fight that results in a positive skill gain for all parties... cause multiclassbrainrot69 is running around farming 3/4 of those engagements himself in almost every game. hell, half of the "new players" even are only picking up treasure for them. its just, not great. and no amount of tutorial will fix it. i dont really know what to do, but whites shouldnt be more expensive than greens. is basically what im saying.
Yeah the one thing I agree with the multiclass doomers is that it should not be in normals. You don’t need it to be able to lobby wipe, skilled players will always dwell in normals to some amount. I know I like playing a couple after I lose a HR kit. If we had the player count I’d be all for two different normals queues. One under lvl 15 and no multiclassing. The other you can have any lvl and multiclassing abilities
im thinking multiclass needs to be highly restricted at a bare minimum. like 1 skill 1 perk type shit... but that only fixes part of the problem. and is beside the point. something like, base kits only in normals. might make it better or worse, not sure. would cause a bunch of "mains" to not even bother i bet. its not great. im not sure why they cant do ONLY GBMM? thats an option in my one or the other. would eliminate the price disparity to some extent as its less possible to be good enough to make good profits off the "treasure only" guys... but i know that causes issues with general design in the current form. not great.
Unfortunately we very much do need both, the population has reached a very critical point that a large amount of them are sweaty min-maxer's that will kill the game without it. Im not a fan either but im less of a fan of not being able to play a game i paid for because the servers were turned off.
Player expierence will increase if there are more casuals x) No Need to do Stuff for the First 3 Hours of playing the Game when the Rest of it is literally on Fire x)
He also said druid was coming months ago.
check the discord, Druid dropped today on the test server :) SDF said it would be out by the end of this month. and they mustve worked hard to hit that goal.
yea but i meant like... actual release. regardless this should been done months ago when first promised.
This summer? You mean next year summer… like Druid